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Speaker 1: Nora Jackson is an extraordinary person who has been through

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Speaker 1: an ordeal that you wouldn't wish on your worst enemy,

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Speaker 1: as you know for listening to her episode that originally

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Speaker 1: aired in November of twenty seventeen.

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Speaker 2: Nora was wrongfully convicted of the murder of her mother.

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Speaker 2: Both of her parents were murdered, and she was left

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Speaker 2: an orphan with no brothers and sisters when she was

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Speaker 2: wrongfully convicted and ended up serving eleven years in prison.

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Speaker 2: Of course, the Tennessee Supreme Court unanimously overturned her conviction

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Speaker 2: and set in there ruling that the prosecutors had lied

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Speaker 2: and cheated and broken so many rules. There were too

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Speaker 2: many to count, too many examples of prosecutorial misconduct, too

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Speaker 2: good into in one recording. Nora, The good news is

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Speaker 2: since the episode aired, she's moved from Tennessee to New York.

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Speaker 1: She now lives in Brooklyn, and she is a sophomore

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Speaker 1: in college to thirty two. Her freshman year, she achieved

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Speaker 1: a three point sixty seven GPA. I know she's going

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Speaker 1: to improve on it this year. She started in an

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Speaker 1: organization called Meet Your Mentor, and she is working with

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Speaker 1: some other incredible, dynamic women Sarah Rappold, Stacy Ryan, and others,

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Speaker 1: and Meet Your Mentor is an organization that is dedicated

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Speaker 1: to helping exoneries formerly incarcerated people get back on their

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Speaker 1: feet and get a fresh start. Nora is a hero

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Speaker 1: of mine, and I'm super proud of everything she's doing.

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Speaker 3: I fell into the hands of a corrupt detective.

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Speaker 4: I was naive enough to believe that I would be

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Speaker 4: able to just present all of my proof of actual innocence,

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Speaker 4: that they would investigate adequately, and so that I wouldn't

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Speaker 4: be going to prison because I was a good person.

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Speaker 4: I hadn't do anything wrong.

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Speaker 3: In the back of your mind, you say, well, when

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Speaker 3: we go to a hearing, we go to court, the

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Speaker 3: truth will come out. The prosecution from day one knew

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Speaker 3: I was innocent and let forced testimony go uncorrected from

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Speaker 3: the lower courts all the way up to the United

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Speaker 3: States Supreme Court.

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Speaker 5: You have someone with a badge with ultimate and really,

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Speaker 5: in that moment unchecked authority.

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Speaker 4: Don't presume that people are guilty when you see him

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Speaker 4: on TV, because it may just be a dirty da

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Speaker 4: that is trying to rise upward.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to wrongful conviction. I am particularly honored actually

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Speaker 1: today to have in the studio Norara Jackson.

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Speaker 6: Nor Jackson was convicted in two thousand and nine of

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Speaker 6: killing her mother.

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Speaker 5: Jackson was eighteen when her mother, Jennifer Jackson, was found

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Speaker 5: murdered stabbed at least fifty times in the bedroom of

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Speaker 5: her East Memphis home. In two thousand and nine, a

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Speaker 5: jury convicted Jackson of second degree murder.

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Speaker 6: Nora Jackson has maintained her innocence. In twenty fourteen, the

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Speaker 6: Tennessee Supreme Court overturned the conviction because of prosecutorial misconduct.

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Speaker 5: And ordered a new trial, claiming the lead prosecutor, now

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Speaker 5: District Attorney Amy Wyrick, withheld a witness statement from the defense.

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Speaker 6: Stephen Jones, is facing misconduct charges for not turning over

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Speaker 6: a key witness statement. District Attorney Amy Wyrick also is

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Speaker 6: facing misconduct charges connected to the case.

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Speaker 5: In May twenty fifteen, Jackson's attorneys accepted a plea deal

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Speaker 5: of voluntary manslaughter from prosecutors, avoiding a potentially lengthy new trial.

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Speaker 5: She could have fought for another ten years on principle,

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Speaker 5: I don't know anybody who would give up their thirties

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Speaker 5: for principal.

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Speaker 1: Nora Jackson is officially a free woman today. Nora, welcome

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Speaker 1: to the show. Thank you, and we have with you

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Speaker 1: Bryce Benjett. You're lawyer from the ennisonce Project, and Bryce,

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Speaker 1: welcome to you too. Glad to be here. This story

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Speaker 1: just really shocked my conscience and you.

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Speaker 7: Lived through it unfortunately.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, there were times when I didn't know if I

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Speaker 8: would make it to the other side.

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Speaker 7: But here I am.

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Speaker 1: Nor Let's go back to it was really not that

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Speaker 1: long ago. I mean two thousand and five. You were

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Speaker 1: still a teenager.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, I turned eighteen in March of two thousand and five,

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Speaker 8: so I was just at the age where, you know,

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Speaker 8: there was no issue with them charging me as an adult.

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Speaker 1: Right, Just another terrible circumstance of your case, And it

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Speaker 1: started with one of the worst things that anyone can experience,

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Speaker 1: which is the murder of your mother. And you had

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Speaker 1: already been through so much because your father was murdered

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Speaker 1: sixteen months earlier.

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Speaker 7: Correct in January of two thousand and four.

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Speaker 1: But they weren't together, No, no, no.

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Speaker 7: No, they weren't. They weren't together.

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Speaker 8: My parents had split up when I was like eighteen

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Speaker 8: months old, and they shared custody for about eight years,

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Speaker 8: and then there was an eight year period where I

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Speaker 8: didn't see my father, and that's another interesting story. I

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Speaker 8: actually walked into a convenience store about a year before

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Speaker 8: he was killed and found him.

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Speaker 7: So I lived with my mom my entire life.

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Speaker 8: So the death of my father, it did really rock me,

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Speaker 8: especially since there was like that newfound relationship there with him.

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Speaker 7: But my mom was my rock.

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Speaker 8: The death of my mother's mother, my grandmother, was the

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Speaker 8: first one that happened in the summer of two thousand

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Speaker 8: and three. Then the death of my father in two

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Speaker 8: thousand and four, and then my best friend was actually

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Speaker 8: killed in a car wreck on the way to my

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Speaker 8: house in January of.

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Speaker 7: Two thousand and five.

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Speaker 8: So that was a really really rough year for me,

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Speaker 8: a really rough time, and my mom was the one

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Speaker 8: that was actually able to get me through all of that.

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Speaker 7: I had pulled back from a lot of my friends.

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Speaker 8: Anybody that has a single parent will know that that

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Speaker 8: relationship is kind of sacred. It's totally different than if

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Speaker 8: you're raised in a two parent household and.

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Speaker 1: You were an only child as well. Yes, so yeah,

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Speaker 1: I can imagine that would create even a stronger bond

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Speaker 1: because there's no one else. It's no buffer, right, it's

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Speaker 1: just you and your mom and your mom Jennifer Jackson

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Speaker 1: was a successful banker as well, right investment bank.

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Speaker 8: But yeah, she was actually a broker. She worked in

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Speaker 8: the stock market. She was a bondsman, and she was

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Speaker 8: very successful. And she'd actually just wanted a word about

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Speaker 8: three months before she was killed, and it was a

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Speaker 8: really big deal. They gave her like a gold bat

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Speaker 8: for like a heavy hitter because of all the money

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Speaker 8: that she had brought in, and I was her date

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Speaker 8: for that.

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Speaker 7: Actually.

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Speaker 8: So you have all of these successful bondsman's there with

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Speaker 8: their trophy wives and or their girlfriends, and you know,

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Speaker 8: my mom is like kind of like the star of

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Speaker 8: the evening and here she comes with her eighteen year

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Speaker 8: old daughter.

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Speaker 7: So it was really really fun.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it sounds like an awesome event, and she sounds

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Speaker 1: like an awesome woman. It's worth noting that the murder

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Speaker 1: of your father went unsolved and still unsolved. Correct, It's

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Speaker 1: only worth noting as it relates to this particular case

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Speaker 1: about your mom because of the fact that there could

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Speaker 1: be some correlation. But let's go back to the terrible

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Speaker 1: night when this happened.

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Speaker 8: So at that time I came home, and retrospectively, I

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Speaker 8: can look back and see that there were signs that

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Speaker 8: something bad had gone on in my house that night.

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Speaker 8: I walked into the kitchen and I saw and broken

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Speaker 8: glass on the floor, so I looked up at the window.

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Speaker 8: My mom had actually broken into that same door once

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Speaker 8: before when she had lost her keys. There's a way

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Speaker 8: to enter into our garage from the backyard. We had

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Speaker 8: a gate that went into our backyard. Then you could

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Speaker 8: go down a hallway which led to our garage, and

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Speaker 8: you could enter into the kitchen through a side door

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Speaker 8: in the garage. There was no key to that door

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Speaker 8: because there was a latch actually in the middle pane.

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Speaker 8: It would slide up and slide over, and that's how

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Speaker 8: you would enter into the house was through that latch.

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Speaker 8: I remember having friends over like all the time, and

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Speaker 8: they kept like trying to open the door because we

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Speaker 8: had a fridge outside, and like everybody was like, what

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Speaker 8: is going on with this door? And there's this like

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Speaker 8: tiny little piece of metal that would hinder you from

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Speaker 8: going outside.

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Speaker 7: So that's what.

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Speaker 8: Makes me feel like anybody that was involved in anything

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Speaker 8: that took place that night and killing my mom, they

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Speaker 8: had intimate knowledge of our house, but at the time,

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Speaker 8: it still didn't alarm me. What alarmed me was when

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Speaker 8: I got ready to go to my room, which was

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Speaker 8: across from my mom's room, and the light was on

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Speaker 8: in the bedroom. The door was halfway open, so that's

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Speaker 8: what caused me to go into the bedroom and.

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Speaker 7: I saw my mom and.

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Speaker 9: I'm sorry, take your time, And you know, I'm not

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Speaker 9: really even sure of what I remember versus what I've

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Speaker 9: heard along the way, especially like from trial and transcripts

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Speaker 9: and things like that, but i do remember walking in

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Speaker 9: and seeing her naked body on the floor and my

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Speaker 9: first reaction was to just pick her up, and she

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Speaker 9: was so heavy, and.

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Speaker 8: I'm looking and I don't even know if I registered

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Speaker 8: at the time.

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Speaker 7: I must have.

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Speaker 8: I mean, somebody gets shot, you know, there's like a

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Speaker 8: pool of blood. I don't even remember there being a

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Speaker 8: pool of blood. I remember they're being blood everywhere, like

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Speaker 8: on the sheets and even on the walls, and I'm

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Speaker 8: just like screaming, and then I know I wanted help,

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Speaker 8: so I run across the street and I go get

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Speaker 8: a neighbor. And at that point, I'm thinking about the

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Speaker 8: broken glass, and I'm like, somebody broke into my house

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Speaker 8: and so he comes with me, and I guess I

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Speaker 8: run in the house in front of him. That's what

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Speaker 8: he said at trial, which they inadvertently made a huge

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Speaker 8: deal about. I didn't give a fuck who was in there.

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Speaker 8: I knew a man was behind me with a gun,

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Speaker 8: and I knew my mom was in there on the floor.

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Speaker 7: That was like my life.

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Speaker 8: That was my cheerleader, that was my coach, and I

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Speaker 8: needed to get to her. And so I went back

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Speaker 8: in there, and the neighbor across the street, I think

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Speaker 8: his girlfriend actually pulled me away from her and told

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Speaker 8: me to call nine wood would So I called nine

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Speaker 8: one one and I'm just I'm screaming. And at one

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Speaker 8: point they asked me if she had been shot, and

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Speaker 8: I said no, But I just remember sitting out on

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Speaker 8: that curb.

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Speaker 7: You know, I watched plenty of TV and I know that.

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Speaker 7: You know, the.

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Speaker 8: EMT goes inside and they bring the body out on

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Speaker 8: the gurney if it's going to go to the hospital.

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Speaker 7: And the gurney came out and nobody was on it,

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Speaker 7: and that's just went I lost it. They actually put me.

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Speaker 8: It's so ironic because it was like foreshadowing what was

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Speaker 8: going to happen. I was so uncontrollable trying to run

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Speaker 8: in the house. They put me in the back of

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Speaker 8: a cock car.

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Speaker 7: At one point.

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Speaker 1: I don't even know what to say.

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Speaker 10: It's one thing that I see. I represent a number

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Speaker 10: of people who have been convicted of a murder of

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Speaker 10: a family member, and just to have that trauma of

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Speaker 10: what you're talking about, and then to be sort of

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Speaker 10: re traumatized by being convicted for it is just unimaginable.

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Speaker 10: And I think that police, when they're faced with a

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Speaker 10: situation where they don't know who did it, rather than

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Speaker 10: looking at the evidence, they start looking at suspects, and

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Speaker 10: they do these suspect driven investigations where they look at

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Speaker 10: the person and try to make a case against the person,

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Speaker 10: rather than looking at the evidence and trying to follow

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Speaker 10: where the evidence leads.

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Speaker 8: And the interesting and disgusting thing is that the day

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Speaker 8: of my mom's funeral, they had two detectives waiting on me.

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Speaker 8: My mom was killed on June fifth. June sixth, I

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Speaker 8: stayed with a family friend. June seventh, my aunts came

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Speaker 8: into town and they tried to take me. I wouldn't

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Speaker 8: go with them, so June eighth. They came and got

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Speaker 8: me and they were like, you're coming with us. We

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Speaker 8: stayed downtown in a hotel room and they left me there.

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Speaker 8: They went somewhere and they left me there, and so

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Speaker 8: one of the people that attended our church came to

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Speaker 8: pick me up and she was like, why are you

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Speaker 8: by yourself? I was sitting on the curb. She was like,

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Speaker 8: you need help, Like, I'm going to take you to

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Speaker 8: see somebody.

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Speaker 7: So she takes me.

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Speaker 8: To a child psychologist and he's talking to me and

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Speaker 8: he was like.

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Speaker 7: This girl is in shock.

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Speaker 8: She needs to be surrounded by people that can pay

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Speaker 8: attention to her and give her what she needs and love,

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Speaker 8: and they need to give her some type of security.

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Speaker 8: So my aunt's solution to that was to take me

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Speaker 8: to Lakeside, which is a behavioral health center. So we

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Speaker 8: go to Lakeside. I don't think at the time, I

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Speaker 8: was really aware of the fact that I was eighteen,

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Speaker 8: so they couldn't put me in there. So what they

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Speaker 8: did was they told me, we will involuntarily commit you

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Speaker 8: and it'll be a seventy two hour mandatory minimum and

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Speaker 8: you will miss your mom's funeral. So they knew that

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Speaker 8: I signed whatever they put in front of me to

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Speaker 8: go inside. So when I went inside, I was there

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Speaker 8: for two days, and then they were supposed to pick

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Speaker 8: me up for my mom's funeral. My best friend that

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Speaker 8: was killed. Her mom actually came up there and brought

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Speaker 8: me clothes the night before. So I just remember, like

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Speaker 8: I'm sitting up there waiting on my aunts to pick

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Speaker 8: me up to what I know is my mom's funeral.

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Speaker 8: It's kind of morbid, like in my dead best friend's clothes,

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Speaker 8: and they're not there. So at this point, I begin

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Speaker 8: to like shred a whole box of Kleenex, and then

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Speaker 8: I begin to freak out. We didn't have access to phones,

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Speaker 8: so my nurse starts to call them. Nobody's answering, so

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Speaker 8: then I really start to freak out. So they give

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Speaker 8: me a sedative, and when my aunts get there, they're like,

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Speaker 8: get in the car. You know, it's not a big deal.

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Speaker 8: You're not going to miss it. The show's not going

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Speaker 8: to start without us, like they referred to it as

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Speaker 8: a show, and I do remember that. And so we're

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Speaker 8: sitting at the funeral and we leave. I don't even

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Speaker 8: go to anything that they have after the funeral. I'm

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Speaker 8: pretty sure. I heard that they had a reception.

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Speaker 7: I didn't go.

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Speaker 8: They took me straight back to Lakeside. I walk into

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Speaker 8: the doors of Lakeside and I'll never forget. My nurse's

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Speaker 8: name was Chris, and I just really, really really was

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Speaker 8: clinging to her at that time because she reminded me

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Speaker 8: of my grandma, and she was like, baby, She was like,

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Speaker 8: I have to take you into the office.

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Speaker 7: You have some people here that want to talk to you.

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Speaker 8: I don't even know what I'm thinking, Like maybe it's

285
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Speaker 8: like old friends, maybe it's a visit, maybe somebody's here

286
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Speaker 8: to see me. And I walk in and it's two

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Speaker 8: detectives with a camera and they hand over a piece

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Speaker 8: of paper and so at this point Lakeside has become

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Speaker 8: very overprotective of me. They're reading the paper and they

290
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Speaker 8: were like, are you kidding me? Like you picked this

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Speaker 8: day of all days, and it's the Affidavid with the warrant.

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Speaker 8: It was very apparent that the attack or the killer

293
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Speaker 8: was injured at the scene of the crime, so they

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Speaker 8: needed to photograph my body in its entirety and get

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Speaker 8: some DNA, which I had already provided the first day,

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Speaker 8: and so they took my clothes off, and I mean,

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Speaker 8: if you look at these pictures, you can tell whatever

298
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Speaker 8: since that I had left at that time left me.

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Speaker 7: I just it was like out of body. I couldn't.

300
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Speaker 8: I could not cope with reality at that point, and

301
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Speaker 8: I had no choice but to go with it because

302
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Speaker 8: at this point i had nobody left. So I'm taking

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Speaker 8: off my clothes and they're photographing me, and I'm thinking, like,

304
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Speaker 8: I just wanted to lay down and die. At that point,

305
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Speaker 8: I just I didn't. I did not have the wherewithal

306
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Speaker 8: to continue.

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Speaker 1: I'm just trying to process, Well, you just told me

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Speaker 1: you were, still, as you said, a child. I mean,

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Speaker 1: the idea that they would strip you at that point,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you're not even stripped of everything except your dignity,

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Speaker 1: and then they took that away too. How how that's

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Speaker 1: even possible is hard for me to process. You've I've

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Speaker 1: been through everything that a human being can possibly adore.

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Speaker 1: You're not even twenty years old yet, right, You're all

315
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Speaker 1: alone in the world, and how the fuck did you

316
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Speaker 1: find the strength to persevere?

317
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Speaker 7: Oh?

318
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Speaker 8: Well, my mom told me when my best friend and

319
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Speaker 8: and id that grief is like Sarah. You know, that's

320
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Speaker 8: the name that she wanted to name me, and she

321
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Speaker 8: was like, you go through sadness and then you go

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Speaker 8: through anger, and then you go through resentment, and then

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Speaker 8: you go through acceptance, and then you go through healing.

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Speaker 8: And I wanted to go through those things. So the

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Speaker 8: anger is what drove me. When I was first arrested,

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Speaker 8: I remember being in the jail, sitting on my bunk

327
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Speaker 8: and watching, like everybody else in the pod of the jail,

328
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Speaker 8: watch the television where they were talking about eighteen year

329
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Speaker 8: old girl arrested for killing her mother who was stabbed

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Speaker 8: over fifty seven times.

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Speaker 7: Prosecutors have not announced if they will be seeking the

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Speaker 7: death penalty.

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Speaker 8: She's been charged with first degree murder, which carries us

334
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Speaker 8: in life without parole, life with pearl, and even the

335
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Speaker 8: death pen you know. And it just was like going

336
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Speaker 8: on and on, and I remember sitting there thinking like,

337
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Speaker 8: I wonder if they will try to give me the

338
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Speaker 8: death penalty. The Constitution, they guarantee the right to a

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Speaker 8: speedy and fair trial.

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Speaker 7: That's what it says in black and white.

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Speaker 8: But the reality of the situation is you will sit

342
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Speaker 8: there for as long as they deem necessary.

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Speaker 7: Amy Wyrick was determined to be my prosecutor. She was

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Speaker 7: a death penalty lawyer, and she was on what they

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00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:30,720
Speaker 7: used to refer to as the death squad, which meant

346
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Speaker 7: that she was qualified to try death penalty cases.

347
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Speaker 8: Amy went out on maternity leave. Do you think that

348
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Speaker 8: she handed the case over to somebody else.

349
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Speaker 7: No.

350
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Speaker 8: I sat there and waited for her to go on

351
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Speaker 8: maternity leave, to have her child and come back. Amy

352
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Speaker 8: was determined to try that case.

353
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Speaker 1: I wasn't there, but it's pretty clear that she saw

354
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Speaker 1: you as a real stopping stone to where she wanted

355
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Speaker 1: to get to in her career.

356
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Speaker 7: Correct.

357
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Speaker 8: This was the biggest and longest running case with the

358
00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:00,400
Speaker 8: most evidence in the most exhibits and Shelby County history

359
00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:02,560
Speaker 8: at the time, it was very clear to her that

360
00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:05,520
Speaker 8: this could be like a career making case, especially if

361
00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:07,960
Speaker 8: she got a conviction. Yeah, so she played like a

362
00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:09,680
Speaker 8: win at all costs game. And you know one of

363
00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:12,520
Speaker 8: the things that Amy Wyrick likes to hold on to

364
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Speaker 8: and like she steadfast on, is that we had forty witnesses. Okay,

365
00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:20,760
Speaker 8: you did, but let's look at what those forty witnesses presented.

366
00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:25,480
Speaker 8: You had TBI, the Tennessee Bear of Investigation that testifies

367
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Speaker 8: that the DNA that they analyzed belonged to somebody else.

368
00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:34,959
Speaker 8: You have Kirby McDonald, Sophie Cooley, Perry Brassfield, Andrew Hammock,

369
00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:38,320
Speaker 8: Joey McGoff. You have all of these children, because they're

370
00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:41,920
Speaker 8: still children at the time, testifying that I smoked pot

371
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Speaker 8: and that I drank at a party. But they were

372
00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:46,919
Speaker 8: doing the same thing, and they're not on trial for

373
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Speaker 8: killing anybody.

374
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Speaker 7: That does not make you a murderer.

375
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Speaker 1: They made a big deal out of the idea that

376
00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:55,679
Speaker 1: you were this craze druggie, right when in fact you

377
00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,479
Speaker 1: were a typical eighteen year old. You're having, you know,

378
00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:01,280
Speaker 1: some beers, you're smoking some p That's what eighteen year

379
00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:03,600
Speaker 1: olds do. You were no drug addict.

380
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Speaker 8: I'm a diabolical killer, and then I'm a pothead. I'm

381
00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:09,680
Speaker 8: someone that can totally get rid of any trace evidence

382
00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:12,400
Speaker 8: that made blood disappear off of clothes that they pulled

383
00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:14,520
Speaker 8: out the back of my car, Clothes that they had

384
00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:17,359
Speaker 8: that I had on that night, that was able to

385
00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:20,239
Speaker 8: overtake a woman that was five to eleven. I don't know,

386
00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:22,600
Speaker 8: like without she was on I'm five to three. She

387
00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:25,240
Speaker 8: was an avid runner, she worked out at the time,

388
00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:27,600
Speaker 8: I was a chubby, little pothead, Like, there's no way

389
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Speaker 8: my mom would have kicked my ass any day of

390
00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:31,800
Speaker 8: the week, you know, And they said this, I mean,

391
00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:34,200
Speaker 8: she fought for her life. I mean, if you look

392
00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:38,520
Speaker 8: at the pictures, like she she went down swinging, there's

393
00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:42,760
Speaker 8: no way that anybody walked away from there unscathed. And

394
00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:45,320
Speaker 8: you know what's crazy is that, I know I remember

395
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Speaker 8: like in situations where like I was in danger and

396
00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:51,360
Speaker 8: I know my mom. There's no way my mom left

397
00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:55,680
Speaker 8: this world willingly. You know, she she took something from

398
00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:59,640
Speaker 8: those people, whoever it was. So that is what they

399
00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:02,200
Speaker 8: use for the warrant for my body. You know, there

400
00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,160
Speaker 8: would have been evidence of some type of attack.

401
00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:07,399
Speaker 1: Some type of fight, of course that would have been

402
00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:10,080
Speaker 1: and we know that your nails were perfectly manicured, and

403
00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:14,240
Speaker 1: there's just no way. And we know this from dreams

404
00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:17,840
Speaker 1: of evidence of cases throughout the years that when somebody

405
00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:23,280
Speaker 1: stabs somebody else numerous times, you always leave blood because

406
00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:25,800
Speaker 1: the thing gets slippery and you get you know, and

407
00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:30,240
Speaker 1: you cut yourself. So, Nora, there's a very unique aspect

408
00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:35,479
Speaker 1: to your prosecution, persecution, et cetera, which I've never heard before,

409
00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:39,200
Speaker 1: which is the fact that the prosecution made a big

410
00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:42,320
Speaker 1: deal out of the fact that you were wearing long sleeves.

411
00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:44,720
Speaker 1: What difference did it make that you were wearing or

412
00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:45,800
Speaker 1: not wearing long.

413
00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,880
Speaker 8: Sleeves, right, So I think the theory that they adopted

414
00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:50,560
Speaker 8: was that I had on long sleeves because they said

415
00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:52,240
Speaker 8: I was trying to hide the cut on my hand.

416
00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:54,359
Speaker 8: I kind of touched on the fact that I was

417
00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:56,359
Speaker 8: a little bit different with this single mother. But I

418
00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:00,879
Speaker 8: was also different because my father was Lebanese.

419
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Speaker 7: So that was a really difficult.

420
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Speaker 8: Thing for me, and it was made even more difficult

421
00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:09,000
Speaker 8: at a young age by my mom's sisters because they

422
00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:11,960
Speaker 8: constantly pointed it out. Growing up, I always wanted to

423
00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:14,040
Speaker 8: look like my mom because she was like, she was

424
00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:17,200
Speaker 8: so beautiful, and I just like idolized her. I could

425
00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:19,240
Speaker 8: never do that figure wise, like I said, you know,

426
00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:22,520
Speaker 8: she was tall and very fit, and I was short

427
00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:24,960
Speaker 8: and I was always kind of chubby. But I would

428
00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:26,639
Speaker 8: dye my hair like if you look back at the

429
00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:29,720
Speaker 8: pictures all throughout my high school and junior high I

430
00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:31,760
Speaker 8: died my hair blonde because I felt like if I

431
00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:32,680
Speaker 8: died my hair blonde, I.

432
00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:34,720
Speaker 7: Would look like more like my mom, I.

433
00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:38,720
Speaker 8: Have really, really, really hairy arms, and that is my heritage,

434
00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:41,879
Speaker 8: that is from being Lebanese. So at that point in

435
00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:43,960
Speaker 8: my life, I thought different was bad, so I didn't

436
00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,359
Speaker 8: want to be different, so I tried to hide those differences,

437
00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:48,639
Speaker 8: and it became just kind of a thing. I mean,

438
00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:51,679
Speaker 8: I was called natured, but I think subconsciously it started

439
00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:54,199
Speaker 8: off as being more of like trying to mask the

440
00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:56,560
Speaker 8: difference in me versus other people.

441
00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:59,000
Speaker 1: But let's also just examine the fact of how ridiculous

442
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:00,800
Speaker 1: it is that you were wearing long sleeves to hide

443
00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:03,160
Speaker 1: the cuts on your hands. You would have need admittence, right,

444
00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:06,440
Speaker 1: That's what you needed, admits or something, right.

445
00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:10,240
Speaker 10: And so all of this comes down to seeing every

446
00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:14,320
Speaker 10: fact through the prism of Nora's guilt. And once these

447
00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:18,880
Speaker 10: investigators decide who they think did it, they make everything

448
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,320
Speaker 10: fall in line. And when they do that, they miss

449
00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:25,959
Speaker 10: the obvious evidence that show said that there was somebody

450
00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:29,880
Speaker 10: else there, there's somebody else's blood on the bed. Instead

451
00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:31,600
Speaker 10: they're looking at shirt sleeves and.

452
00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:34,320
Speaker 1: That person is still free. All of this goes back

453
00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:37,159
Speaker 1: to the idea that they had no evidence against you.

454
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:42,000
Speaker 1: There never was any evidence against you and the exculpatory evidence.

455
00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:43,760
Speaker 1: I want to touch on that for a second too.

456
00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:48,560
Speaker 1: Stephen Jones, the assistant prosecutor on the case, This motherfucker

457
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:53,440
Speaker 1: took evidence that he clearly knew would have blown the

458
00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:59,280
Speaker 1: case against you, right, which means in English that he

459
00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:02,040
Speaker 1: knew you were in it. But this was an inconvenient truth.

460
00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:07,040
Speaker 1: He somehow or other managed to forget that there was

461
00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:10,960
Speaker 1: a note which would have totally blown to think the smitherings,

462
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,439
Speaker 1: and then magically, five days after the trial he remembers it,

463
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:19,520
Speaker 1: which leads me to think that he started thinking after

464
00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:24,280
Speaker 1: the trial was over, well, I probably did something really

465
00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:24,960
Speaker 1: wrong here.

466
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:29,600
Speaker 8: If my attorney, Valery Quarter is nothing else, she is very,

467
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:32,560
Speaker 8: very thorough. They knew that it would be found because

468
00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:36,680
Speaker 8: she was thorough. Valerie, she knew head on going into

469
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:38,360
Speaker 8: this that these people were unethical.

470
00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:43,840
Speaker 1: The prosecutor, Amy Wyrick, had been censured numerous times for

471
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:48,480
Speaker 1: behavior not dissimilar to what she did to you. She

472
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,480
Speaker 1: was promoted after the trial, right, She's moved.

473
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:53,560
Speaker 8: Up in the world and brought some of the detectives

474
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:55,680
Speaker 8: that were on the case up with her. This woman

475
00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:59,639
Speaker 8: sat there and said that DNA analysis was not important

476
00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:02,199
Speaker 8: it is important in some cases, she said, but it

477
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:04,840
Speaker 8: wasn't important in mine. But if you go back to

478
00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:08,720
Speaker 8: the very beginning, they used DNA as a way to

479
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:12,439
Speaker 8: gain access to my body. They used all of this

480
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:15,680
Speaker 8: stuff to get what they wanted, and when the results

481
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,280
Speaker 8: came back then it wasn't relevant anymore.

482
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:20,480
Speaker 7: That never really made sense to me.

483
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:23,439
Speaker 8: You have a warrant that was issued in two thousand

484
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:26,120
Speaker 8: and five for a person's body because you say an

485
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,879
Speaker 8: arrest cannot be made in a case that's in June

486
00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:31,320
Speaker 8: of two thousand and five. An arrest cannot be made

487
00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:34,960
Speaker 8: in this case without some type of DNA or physical evidence.

488
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,879
Speaker 8: September twenty ninth, two thousand and five, you arrest me.

489
00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:42,439
Speaker 8: December of two thousand and five, the Tennessee Bear of

490
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,840
Speaker 8: Investigations releases their findings with the DNA analysis and it

491
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:49,480
Speaker 8: comes back as a profile that it excludes me and

492
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:52,520
Speaker 8: excludes my mother. Do you think that at any point

493
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:56,160
Speaker 8: they revisited the case, they revisited the theory, They said,

494
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:57,439
Speaker 8: maybe we got this wrong.

495
00:23:57,760 --> 00:23:59,399
Speaker 7: We should let her go. Let's go back to the

496
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 7: drawing board, let's start over.

497
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 1: No, it's I can't, I mean, and I'm trying to.

498
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,280
Speaker 1: I can't obviously put myself in your shoes. Nobody can.

499
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,439
Speaker 1: But the nightmare it's total. I mean, the people who

500
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 1: are supposed to be protecting you and are supposed to be,

501
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:17,119
Speaker 1: you know, protecting society are going so rogue.

502
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:19,639
Speaker 8: I really really have to point this out. You have

503
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,879
Speaker 8: to have motive, means an opportunity. That's the three requirements

504
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 8: when you're trying somebody for a case. So their motive

505
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:31,240
Speaker 8: became money. There was no money. My father ran a

506
00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:35,640
Speaker 8: business that relied on cash, and some will say that he.

507
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 7: Ran an escort service.

508
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:39,880
Speaker 8: If anybody knows anything about when you're doing I legal activity,

509
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:41,760
Speaker 8: you don't put that money in a bank account.

510
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 7: It's not ran on books. It's ran off books. Whatever

511
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:45,440
Speaker 7: was there.

512
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 8: We saw a person on video lifting cash out of

513
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:51,240
Speaker 8: a floor safe that I didn't even know existed. By

514
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:53,959
Speaker 8: the time the cops had released the keys to his house,

515
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,720
Speaker 8: it had been ransacked. My father had ten thousand dollars

516
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,639
Speaker 8: in a bank account, and my mom allowed me to

517
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 8: make the choice of what to do with that, and

518
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 8: we used that money and she ended up having to

519
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,840
Speaker 8: put like another thousand dollars with it to send his

520
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:10,400
Speaker 8: body back to Beirut so he could be buried with

521
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 8: my grandparents.

522
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:13,479
Speaker 7: So there was no money.

523
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,160
Speaker 8: There was this big idea that there was a fight

524
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,159
Speaker 8: over control of an estate that did not exist, the

525
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,480
Speaker 8: idea that he had an estate or he didn't even

526
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:24,680
Speaker 8: have a will, I mean, there was there was nothing.

527
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,440
Speaker 8: So the whole theory of the case was built around

528
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 8: there was money that my mom had that I could

529
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 8: not have.

530
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:33,920
Speaker 7: Well, okay, let's look at that too.

531
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 8: I'm eighteen, so anything that existed that she had by

532
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,479
Speaker 8: right would have gone to me. Then they said that

533
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 8: she wanted to send me away. I'm eighteen. She can't

534
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 8: send me away unless I choose to go. She could

535
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,639
Speaker 8: kick me out, but she can't send me away. So

536
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 8: this whole theory that I was an out of control

537
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 8: teenager that wanted some money that didn't I mean, it

538
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,040
Speaker 8: was like and what was so frustrating to me and

539
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:00,960
Speaker 8: I didn't know the time, is that all of this

540
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 8: could have been easily disproven, but it wasn't.

541
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 1: You didn't testify in your own case, and this became

542
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:11,159
Speaker 1: a very important factor. Your attorney was concerned that in

543
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 1: your fragile state, which by the way, you are now

544
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 1: an orphan you've been in jail for three and a

545
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:19,159
Speaker 1: half years. Your attorney made what could be deemed a

546
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 1: rational decision to not have you testify because on cross

547
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,479
Speaker 1: examination you could have broken down or who knows. I mean,

548
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 1: it turned out to be the wrong decision, but you

549
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 1: could sort of see where that came from, right Bright.

550
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 10: Yeah, it's always a tough call because you have this

551
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:37,199
Speaker 10: dynamic where the state has all the power. They are

552
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:41,119
Speaker 10: the ones who create this narrative, and they've got you

553
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,160
Speaker 10: on the stand. The judge is going to let them

554
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:47,879
Speaker 10: ask all kinds of horrible questions, and there is always

555
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,200
Speaker 10: a very delicate question about whether your client's going to testify.

556
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 10: And certainly nobody should ever think about somebody not testifying,

557
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 10: and that's an admission of guilt. Juries are instructed about it.

558
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:04,399
Speaker 10: And in this case, the state took that right that

559
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 10: Nora has and reasonable decision. Every single person has the

560
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:13,399
Speaker 10: right to say to the state, I didn't do this crime,

561
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:15,919
Speaker 10: and there's no proof that I did this crime, and

562
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 10: I don't have to subject myself to being attacked because

563
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 10: of it. I mean, think Nora is there sitting accused

564
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 10: of the murder of her own mother, traumatized for a

565
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 10: second time, And is it a reasonable decision to not

566
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 10: allow yourself to be traumatized for a third time where

567
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 10: you're being accused of that murder on the stand. That's

568
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 10: a reasonable decision under the circumstances.

569
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 1: So you have these rights.

570
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:49,360
Speaker 10: But here in the closing argument, the prosecutor takes that

571
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 10: and really comments on that and invites the jury to

572
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:55,920
Speaker 10: in for guilt in ways that is unconstitutional.

573
00:27:56,040 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 1: Well, yes, the prosecutor this hyric chose to basically excoriate

574
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 1: and more or less scream at you, demanding that you

575
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 1: tell her what had happened, which is not only wildly inappropriate,

576
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 1: but also patently illegal. Right, that's illegal behavior. You can't

577
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:18,400
Speaker 1: do it. But she did it anyway. She had this goal, right,

578
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 1: she was gonna make it to where she had to

579
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 1: go by stepping on your neck. And that's exactly what

580
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 1: she did. And she was willing to not only bend

581
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 1: the rules, but break the rules and break the law.

582
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 1: And it's actually mind blowing in your case.

583
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:35,359
Speaker 8: I mean, before she was able to finish a valerie quarter,

584
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 8: my first attorney, she jumped up and you know, at

585
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 8: this point, I'm I'm still like I just turned twenty one,

586
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:44,240
Speaker 8: and I really didn't know a whole lot, but I

587
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:46,479
Speaker 8: knew what she did right then and there, Like I

588
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 8: was about to jump out my seat and I was

589
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:50,719
Speaker 8: about to say but you know, and my lawyer like

590
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 8: put my hand like this, and she jumped up and

591
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 8: she was like, you're on, Like you know, I object

592
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 8: and all of that.

593
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 7: The thing is is that her intention was met.

594
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 8: It was very, very very calculating what she did. Jurors

595
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 8: are your everyday people. The human condition is to be curious.

596
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 8: These people walked out of the jury box with the

597
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 8: last thing in their mind being just tell us where

598
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 8: you were, Nora. That's all we're asking. She simplified it

599
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 8: in a way like if you would have just told

600
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 8: us where you were, none of this would be happening.

601
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 8: So that's the last thing that these twelve people heard

602
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 8: when they walked.

603
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 7: Out of that box.

604
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 10: And I'll tell you, as a lawyer, you know that

605
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 10: you're not allowed to do that. You are not allowed

606
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 10: to comment on a person testifying or not testifying in

607
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 10: that manner. And if a defense lawyer had done that,

608
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 10: they'd be in jail.

609
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 7: It's their world. You're in it, and they make the rules.

610
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 1: And they move the lines when they want to.

611
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 2: They do.

612
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 8: And if you're a defense attorney and you do something wrong,

613
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 8: they'll have no fury. If you're a prosecutor and you

614
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 8: do something wrong, it was a mistake, it was an

615
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 8: invertent mistake.

616
00:29:57,760 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 7: They didn't mean to. They're sorry. It won't happen.

617
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 1: And Norah, let me point out that the Fair Punishment

618
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 1: Project at Harvard, which is as blue chip of a

619
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 1: panel as you can have, there are literally legal luminaries

620
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 1: on that panel, and they just this year singled out

621
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:19,960
Speaker 1: Amy Wyrick, prosecutor in your case, for numerous allegations of

622
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 1: misconduct over the last several years. And yet there she

623
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 1: is serving an eight year term victimizing other people the

624
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 1: same way she did to you, and getting away with it.

625
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's crazy. And she actually gave a statement when

626
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 8: that came out. She gave a statement, and she dismissed

627
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 8: that as easily as she dismissed the dNaM My case.

628
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 1: Norah, when you were at trial, obviously you knew you

629
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 1: were innocent, but now you'd been incarcerated in a horrendous

630
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 1: jail situation for three and a half years, which let's

631
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 1: not forget at that point that's a big percentage of

632
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 1: your life. Was there a point during the trial at

633
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 1: which you said, WHOA, they may actually convict me, Like,

634
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 1: did you just expect that finally justice would be done

635
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 1: and the jury would rule in your favor.

636
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 7: Going into trial.

637
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 8: I looked forward to it and I was looking for

638
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 8: my day in court, and I thought that justice system

639
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 8: would prevail, and I believed all that during trial. It

640
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,800
Speaker 8: was like, so when my mom was killed, it was

641
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 8: a shock, it was a trauma, but it's like it

642
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 8: had the advantage of like I didn't see it coming

643
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 8: and I was totally blindsided. Going to trial, I was

644
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 8: reliving all of that. I knew how horrible it was.

645
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 8: I knew how horrendous it was. I knew what it

646
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 8: looked like, I knew what she looked like, and I

647
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 8: was faced with all that again. So I think, like

648
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 8: there were points during the trial where I would literally

649
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 8: like bite the inside of my cheek. At one point

650
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 8: it bled, just because there were so many times I

651
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 8: wanted to open up my mouth and say something, whether

652
00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 8: it was during testimony or at one point I wanted

653
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 8: them to just take the fucking pictures down, Like I

654
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:04,719
Speaker 8: didn't want to see that there my mom is neked

655
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 8: and she has been murdered, and it's just like there's

656
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 8: a thousand people in the courtroom, and I just I

657
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 8: didn't want to see it, and I didn't want anyone

658
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 8: else to see it. So I think subconsciously the first week,

659
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 8: I just was so focused on like trying to get

660
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 8: up and like make it through the next day. I'll

661
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 8: never forget this Saturday, because we went to trial on

662
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 8: a Saturday. It lasted like fourteen days, and that Saturday

663
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 8: it was Valentine's Day.

664
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 7: And the only way I knew.

665
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 8: That is because when they took me to the holding cell,

666
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,720
Speaker 8: no one else was obviously going to court. It was Saturday,

667
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,120
Speaker 8: so I was in the whole jail by myself, and

668
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 8: so they kept me in this little tiny holding cell

669
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 8: that normally they would have the men in during the week,

670
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 8: and one of the jailers had put a heart shaped

671
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 8: butterfinger in there for me to like acknowledge that it

672
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 8: was Valentine's Day. And I remember like getting that piece

673
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 8: of candy and realizing that it was Valentine's Day and

674
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,720
Speaker 8: that that was a day that people recognized, and like

675
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 8: that I wasn't even aware of what was going on,

676
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 8: you know, and that the only thing that I could

677
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 8: figure out was that today might be the day that

678
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 8: I found out what was going to happen with the

679
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 8: rest of my life.

680
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 7: I think that not knowing was the worst.

681
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 1: And then we get to the point where the prosecutor,

682
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 1: why Rick, violates your constitutional rights flagrantly by totally disregarding

683
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 1: her responsibility to not highlight or make an issue out

684
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 1: of the fact that you chose or your lawyer actually

685
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 1: advised you, and you chose not to testify your own defense.

686
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 1: And the jury goes out, and then they come back in,

687
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 1: and that moment you knew when they came back in, I.

688
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 7: Knew, you know.

689
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 8: I almost feel like I knew when Amy did that

690
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 8: as they walk back in. There was periods throughout that trial.

691
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 8: It was like a fourteen day trial where when things

692
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 8: are being discussed and things were being said, the jury

693
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 8: would look at me. I mean, who wouldn't you know

694
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:57,160
Speaker 8: you're talking about this person like they're not in the room,

695
00:33:57,480 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 8: but the person is in the room and they're just

696
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 8: sitting there. So periodically I would look, even though my

697
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 8: journeys kept telling me not too, I would look at

698
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 8: the jury and there was this one guy with like

699
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 8: reddish hair, and he constantly, along with a woman next

700
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 8: to him, made eye contact with me throughout the trial.

701
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 8: And when they walked in his nose because he had

702
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 8: red hair and he was paler, I could tell that

703
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 8: either he was angry or he had been crying. And

704
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 8: I looked at him and he looked down. He wouldn't

705
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 8: look at me. Well, boy, and I knew right then.

706
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 1: So you're convicted and sentenced to twenty years and nine

707
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:34,920
Speaker 1: months in prison. You've already been now in jail for

708
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:37,759
Speaker 1: three and a half years. You go to prison, How

709
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 1: did you deal with that?

710
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:40,280
Speaker 7: You know? Prison?

711
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 8: I talked about Sarah with you, and prison was where

712
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 8: I did like my anger, and then I did my

713
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:51,840
Speaker 8: resentment and then my acceptance, and it kind of armored

714
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:54,799
Speaker 8: me to go back out and FIGHTE again. I was

715
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 8: really broken when I got to prison. I had totally

716
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 8: lost faith in the justice system. That's when I really

717
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 8: realized that the world was not fair, that my mother's

718
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:06,879
Speaker 8: killer was walking around free, and that people that said

719
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 8: that they loved her didn't care because to love my

720
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 8: mother was to love me because I was my mother,

721
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:17,839
Speaker 8: Like we were a package deal. And so I just

722
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:20,840
Speaker 8: I really couldn't believe when it happened, Like I was

723
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,799
Speaker 8: really in a daze. So I go to prison and

724
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 8: I'm very very very much to myself and I get

725
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:29,839
Speaker 8: involved in a lot.

726
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:30,879
Speaker 7: Of different activities.

727
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:33,720
Speaker 8: So I go to this one seminar in the prison

728
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 8: and they had assigned you to tables by stickers. Well,

729
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:39,359
Speaker 8: I decided I didn't like the sticker that I had,

730
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:40,800
Speaker 8: and I didn't like the table I had, and I

731
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 8: wanted to sit at a different table. So I took

732
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:44,719
Speaker 8: it upon myself to switch my sticker with somebody else

733
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 8: and move myself. I'm not thinking anybody's paying attention. There's

734
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:51,319
Speaker 8: like one hundred inmates in there. So the lady that's

735
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,400
Speaker 8: the director of this program, she just keeps picking at me,

736
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:57,360
Speaker 8: like the whole time that I'm in there, saying something

737
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 8: to me about changing my sticker, putting me by at

738
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:02,440
Speaker 8: my table, and there was like another thing that she

739
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:03,920
Speaker 8: did to me. So at the end of the seminar,

740
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:06,960
Speaker 8: she's asking questions to give away prizes, and she has

741
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 8: something that was relevant to what one of the speakers said,

742
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 8: and she called on me. I guess she thought I

743
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 8: didn't know the answer, and I stood up and I

744
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 8: give her the answer, probably in like the nicest, nastiest

745
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 8: way that you could. And at the end of the seminar,

746
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:20,280
Speaker 8: she was like, I'm going to be her on Wednesday

747
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:22,400
Speaker 8: to talk to you, and I was just looking at

748
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:24,600
Speaker 8: her like and I'm not going to talk to you.

749
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:26,400
Speaker 7: Like I've had so many people. I just at that

750
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:27,960
Speaker 7: point I didn't want to talk to anyone.

751
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:31,880
Speaker 8: And her name was pat Colp and she is the

752
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 8: reason that I still have my sanity. She runs an

753
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 8: organization called Women Empowered to Become Self Sufficient shortened its webs,

754
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 8: and what she does is she comes into the prison

755
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 8: and she nurtures the people that have longer sentences. So

756
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:51,840
Speaker 8: many of the programs inside the prison are geared towards

757
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,920
Speaker 8: people that are fast tracked for release. You know, they

758
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 8: want to reduce the rate of recidivism theoretically, and they

759
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:01,759
Speaker 8: want to provide entry for people that are closer to

760
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 8: getting out. So then you have someone like me with

761
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:06,759
Speaker 8: almost a twenty one year sentence and I'm just at

762
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:08,920
Speaker 8: the back of the bus because they're not worried about

763
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 8: people like us or my friends that have life, because

764
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 8: they'll get to us when they get to us.

765
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 7: We're gonna be there a while.

766
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:16,880
Speaker 8: But then you have an amazing situation like mine happened,

767
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:19,759
Speaker 8: where the Supreme Court overturns all my stuff and I

768
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:22,360
Speaker 8: have the possibility of being thrown back out into society.

769
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,840
Speaker 8: But I have no tools and no help because I've

770
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:28,319
Speaker 8: been put at the back of the bus because of

771
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:31,359
Speaker 8: my sentence. So ms pat comes in, and she's so

772
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:36,720
Speaker 8: important because she offers computer classes, how to write a resume,

773
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 8: thinking for a change, like things that people like me need,

774
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 8: but the prison doesn't like they don't have anything for that.

775
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 8: She also does something called Winter Wonderland, where it's like

776
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 8: for a whole week, I felt like I wasn't in prison.

777
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 8: I don't have any children. But what they do is

778
00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,239
Speaker 8: they turn the whole gym into the prison. They allow

779
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:01,840
Speaker 8: people to go down there. If you don't have any children,

780
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:04,839
Speaker 8: you get thirty fake dollars. You're able to go down there.

781
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:07,319
Speaker 8: And it's just something about being able to get like

782
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 8: something from the free world, a nice, real gift to

783
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:12,400
Speaker 8: send to people that are on the outside, that are

784
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 8: taking care of you, that are coming to see you,

785
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 8: that are accepting your phone calls, that are sending you

786
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,239
Speaker 8: pictures to be able to be in prison and to

787
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 8: give something to somebody else, you know, when you're so

788
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 8: locked away from the world, is the most amazing thing.

789
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 8: And then if you do have children, on Saturday, your

790
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 8: children come in and you give your children Christmas. So

791
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 8: it's not in a visitation setting. It's not where you

792
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:37,239
Speaker 8: can't hold your child, you can't feed your child, you

793
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 8: can't do any of that.

794
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 7: These mothers get to have.

795
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:42,960
Speaker 8: Their children from eight to three, open gifts with them,

796
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:46,319
Speaker 8: do arts and crafts with them, hold them, if they

797
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 8: need to change their diaper, they can. You know, all

798
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:50,759
Speaker 8: of the things that mothers want and need to do

799
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 8: for their children, and she enables that opportunity.

800
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 7: So to be a part.

801
00:38:55,400 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 8: Of that was like the most amazing experience ever. There

802
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 8: was so much joy and at the same time, like

803
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 8: you open up the day and it's the most beautiful

804
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,799
Speaker 8: thing you've ever seen for these women in prison to

805
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 8: be able to hold and have Christmas with their children.

806
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 8: And then it's the most heart wrenching thing you've seen

807
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 8: when these children have to walk out of the prison

808
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:18,719
Speaker 8: away from their mothers.

809
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 7: It will destroy your soul.

810
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 1: Norah. Then a miracle happens, literally a miracle right, I mean,

811
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 1: because we know how rare it is for wrongful convictions

812
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:35,760
Speaker 1: to be overturned, very rare in Tennessee. For the Supreme

813
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:40,800
Speaker 1: Court of Tennessee to overturn a wrongful conviction, it's a miracle.

814
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 2: Right.

815
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:42,359
Speaker 1: What was that day?

816
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 8: Like it was I'm actually on the toilet, going to

817
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 8: the bathroom watching TV and it just like so happens

818
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 8: that my roommate's TV is on the lower stand and

819
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 8: she had it on mute. I think it was something

820
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:56,839
Speaker 8: good to eat for dinner that night, So everybody else

821
00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:00,360
Speaker 8: has gone to the chowha, and I I see what

822
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:02,719
Speaker 8: I think is my name flashed across the bottom of

823
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:04,239
Speaker 8: the screen. Like you know how they have like the

824
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 8: little title at the bottom of whatever the news story

825
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 8: is about. Well, you get in trouble if you listen

826
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:12,800
Speaker 8: to your TV without headphones in it. So we always

827
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,439
Speaker 8: have the closed caption on, so even if the mute

828
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:17,319
Speaker 8: is on, the close caption is running, so the close

829
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:18,719
Speaker 8: caption is always a little.

830
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 7: Bit behind that. So I'm like, did I just see

831
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 7: my name?

832
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:23,799
Speaker 8: So I'm waiting for the closed caption to come on,

833
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:26,399
Speaker 8: and all I see is Nora Jackson, and I don't

834
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 8: know if I saw reverse or Supreme Court.

835
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:29,680
Speaker 7: So I was like, holy shit.

836
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 8: So I jump up and I changed the channel because

837
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:35,799
Speaker 8: we have something called three dash two, which is like

838
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:38,720
Speaker 8: it just runs the news over and over and over again.

839
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:41,040
Speaker 8: So I'm sitting there and I'm like, you know what,

840
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 8: Like I get impatient. I'm like, I'm gonna go to

841
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:44,239
Speaker 8: a news channel five. I go to news channel five.

842
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:46,399
Speaker 8: I wait about two or three minutes it's on there.

843
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:49,720
Speaker 8: So I'm screaming out. At the time, I lived around

844
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 8: the corner on the upper level of D South, which

845
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 8: is like it's a pod that's away from the rest

846
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 8: of the prison because they have a dog program there.

847
00:40:57,239 --> 00:40:59,399
Speaker 8: So I think the officer was outside with the dog

848
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:00,880
Speaker 8: program and I'm like screaming.

849
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 7: I'm like, somebody let me out of here.

850
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 8: And I'm just so excited and i want to tell

851
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 8: my friends and they're gone to eat, so I'm like

852
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 8: waiting for them on the breezeway. I'm like guess what,

853
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:13,400
Speaker 8: and they're like what. I'm like, what would be like

854
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:16,239
Speaker 8: the best thing that could ever happen to me? And

855
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:18,839
Speaker 8: they were like, you know, you walk away and you

856
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:20,320
Speaker 8: do this and you do that, And I was like

857
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:23,080
Speaker 8: the Supreme Court just overturned my stuff, and we all

858
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 8: just started crying because a victory for me was a

859
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:28,840
Speaker 8: victory for them, because it's hope. We hadn't seen that

860
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 8: done before.

861
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:32,959
Speaker 1: I'm just going to say that I don't remember ever

862
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:36,840
Speaker 1: having a visual quite like you sitting on the toilet,

863
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:41,760
Speaker 1: watching your own name scroll across the screen and then

864
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 1: jumping around. I mean, you no, I know, It's like I.

865
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 8: Almost wanted to change the narrative just because I'm like,

866
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:51,280
Speaker 8: I'm sitting on the toilet, but I mean, that's what happens.

867
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 7: There's something symbolic about that, right, it really really is.

868
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:59,080
Speaker 1: I mean, the toilet is perfect analogy for this a

869
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:01,439
Speaker 1: lot of what's gone on here so far. Something else

870
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:04,200
Speaker 1: is really dramatic about you having to wait to be

871
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 1: able to tell your friends. So the Tennessee Supreme Court

872
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 1: in a unanimous decision. I want to emphasize that the

873
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 1: unanimous decision reverses your conviction and in the strongest terms,

874
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:19,279
Speaker 1: condemns the conduct of the prosecutors. And anybody listening is

875
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 1: probably going, Okay, well, that's that's a wrap, right, case closed,

876
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:26,840
Speaker 1: nor is out. But that's not the end of the story,

877
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:29,879
Speaker 1: and what we learn in these cases is that having

878
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:32,640
Speaker 1: your conviction overturn doesn't mean that your indictment. You know,

879
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 1: your indictment still stands right, and the prosecutor still has

880
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:40,319
Speaker 1: power to inflict harm on the person that's in the crosshairs. Here.

881
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:42,399
Speaker 1: In many cases they'll drop the charges at that point

882
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:44,200
Speaker 1: because the conviction has been overturned, and in this case

883
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 1: by the Supreme Court, I mean, like the highest court

884
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 1: in Tennessee five zero five zero, right. Incredible. When you

885
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 1: got that news, did you think you were going home

886
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:54,600
Speaker 1: that day?

887
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:56,960
Speaker 8: You know, if I was anyone else, I probably would

888
00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:58,400
Speaker 8: have thought that that meant that I was going to

889
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:00,319
Speaker 8: be free. A lot of people, you know, that were

890
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:02,840
Speaker 8: not really really totally aware of the workings of the

891
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:05,400
Speaker 8: just system were like waiting for me to pack myself

892
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:08,000
Speaker 8: that night. But the way my life in my world works,

893
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 8: I knew that there was still.

894
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:09,800
Speaker 7: An uphill battle.

895
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:15,400
Speaker 1: For there to be no real consequence of that is insane.

896
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:19,239
Speaker 10: It is It's nuts that this can go on, That

897
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:23,520
Speaker 10: a court can identify, yes, a flagrant violation of her

898
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:28,400
Speaker 10: rights and that ultimately is a condemnation of this conviction.

899
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 10: It's as close as can be to a finding by

900
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:36,319
Speaker 10: this court that she really didn't do it, and for

901
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:39,759
Speaker 10: that then to go back to the county and for

902
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 10: them to just go right back to work on the

903
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 10: same railroad that they were doing before is unimaginable from

904
00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:51,280
Speaker 10: this perspective, but unfortunately pretty routine. So in a claim

905
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:55,600
Speaker 10: like a Brady claim, you cannot say no more. All

906
00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 10: they can do is put you back in the same

907
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:02,040
Speaker 10: position that you were before where the government cheated, which

908
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:04,920
Speaker 10: is one of the real problems with these britty claims,

909
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:09,000
Speaker 10: because the government can cheat and cheat and cheat, and

910
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:12,920
Speaker 10: the worst possible consequence for them is that they just

911
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:15,440
Speaker 10: get to do it over as if they weren't caught cheating.

912
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 1: So the Supreme Court or returns your conviction and then

913
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:30,279
Speaker 1: you end up back in court because they can put

914
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:33,399
Speaker 1: you back in court, and that's another outrageous thing about

915
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:36,400
Speaker 1: all of this. But nonetheless they put you back in court,

916
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:42,719
Speaker 1: and now you are faced with a momentous decision, which

917
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:45,920
Speaker 1: is that the government gives you the option to go

918
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 1: back to trial or to take what's called an Alfred play.

919
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:51,960
Speaker 1: And I know that had to be really the hardest

920
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 1: decision of your life.

921
00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:59,800
Speaker 8: It was okay, the Supreme Court overturned my conviction and

922
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 8: in August of twenty fourteen, and I didn't even go

923
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 8: back to the county jail. I had my first hearing

924
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 8: in February of twenty fifteen, so there was like a

925
00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:16,400
Speaker 8: long waiting period in between there. My first court appearance

926
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:21,160
Speaker 8: in February of twenty fifteen was for a bond hearing.

927
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 8: And the mentality of people that are incarcerated in anybody

928
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:26,879
Speaker 8: that knows, is it's easier to fight your case from

929
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:29,319
Speaker 8: the street. If you're out there and you're in the

930
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 8: free world and you're doing good things can and also

931
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 8: just mentally you're more prepared and you're not all broken down.

932
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 1: You can meet with your lawyers as many.

933
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:40,799
Speaker 7: Times as you There's a big advantage to that. So

934
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 7: our thoughts were I would have.

935
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:45,799
Speaker 8: A bond hearing and we would work really hard on

936
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:48,400
Speaker 8: getting me out and that way, because this case theoretically

937
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:51,040
Speaker 8: could drag on for a really long time. In a

938
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:55,880
Speaker 8: very calculating move, the Shelby County District Attorney's office recused

939
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:59,120
Speaker 8: themselves the day of my bond hearing, which therefore forfeited

940
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 8: me the opportunity to have a bond.

941
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 7: And Jason, that's like really important.

942
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 8: Because if that just goes to show that they they

943
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 8: were so underhanded and all of the stuff that they

944
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:11,920
Speaker 8: did to me.

945
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:14,760
Speaker 7: I mean a bond hearing. People have bond hearings every day.

946
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:18,600
Speaker 8: People get bond set before they ever have a court appearance.

947
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 8: A special prosecutor does not need to be familiar with

948
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:24,360
Speaker 8: the facts of the case in order for a defendant

949
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:27,400
Speaker 8: to have a bond. But this is the judge saying

950
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:30,280
Speaker 8: that it was all just a ployee because the ultimate

951
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:32,399
Speaker 8: goal for them was for me to take a plea.

952
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:35,359
Speaker 7: Of course, they had no case. There was so much

953
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:36,279
Speaker 7: public scrutiny.

954
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:39,640
Speaker 8: The Supreme Court had slapped them down very very heavily

955
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:42,759
Speaker 8: in that opinion, and they had lost all their witnesses.

956
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:45,279
Speaker 8: A lot of them didn't want to testify, and a

957
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:48,759
Speaker 8: lot of them were now in material. So they just

958
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:52,319
Speaker 8: kept pressuring, putting off, pressuring and putting off. And the

959
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:55,200
Speaker 8: day before I took my plea, we had actually subpoened

960
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:59,640
Speaker 8: thirty assistant district attorneys and they had filed injunctions to

961
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:02,320
Speaker 8: block him, and then they were getting ready to go through.

962
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:05,280
Speaker 7: Their ultimate goal was to keep Amy Wyrick off the stand.

963
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:07,480
Speaker 8: She had already been in the stand earlier in that

964
00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 8: year about hiding evidence in a totally different case, and

965
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:12,400
Speaker 8: if you put Amy on that stand, she was going

966
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:14,960
Speaker 8: to have to be held accountable. And I guess the

967
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:17,799
Speaker 8: solution to all that was to get me off their

968
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:20,719
Speaker 8: case and just to dispose of all of this was

969
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:24,160
Speaker 8: a plea. So my lawyers came to me the night

970
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:27,000
Speaker 8: before I took the plea with the offer. There was

971
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 8: a lot of confusion. I kept asking, like, you know,

972
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 8: how much is it?

973
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 7: What is it?

974
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:33,440
Speaker 8: And they just kept reiterating, you will walk out of

975
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:36,800
Speaker 8: here tomorrow, you can go home, you can be free.

976
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:40,080
Speaker 8: And my lawyer the first thing I asked them, I

977
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 8: started crying and I was like, do you know what

978
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 8: this means?

979
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:44,359
Speaker 7: And she was like, what I said.

980
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:47,399
Speaker 8: For them to offer me this plea, I said, this

981
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:50,960
Speaker 8: means that they know I didn't do it. They went

982
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:53,560
Speaker 8: to my mom's two sisters that were against me, and

983
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:56,560
Speaker 8: they agreed to this plea. If they really thought that

984
00:47:56,640 --> 00:47:58,839
Speaker 8: I killed their sister, do you think that they would

985
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:02,319
Speaker 8: be willing to offer me freedom? I said, I don't

986
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:04,279
Speaker 8: know what's more awful the fact that I've been here,

987
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:07,719
Speaker 8: of the fact that these people know or have a

988
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:10,359
Speaker 8: doubt in their mind and still went through with all

989
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:12,760
Speaker 8: of this that I could be free. Like I was crying,

990
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:15,800
Speaker 8: and she was like, Nora, listen, you want five things.

991
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:19,640
Speaker 8: You want your mom back, It's not going to happen.

992
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:22,520
Speaker 8: You want your ants to acknowledge the fact that you

993
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:24,400
Speaker 8: didn't do this, and you want them to love you.

994
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:27,359
Speaker 8: That's not going to happen. You want people to think

995
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:29,640
Speaker 8: you didn't do it. The people that believe you and

996
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:31,400
Speaker 8: that they know you, they're going to be behind you.

997
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 8: They've always been behind you. The people that have made

998
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 8: up their mind that you did do this and that

999
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:40,800
Speaker 8: are opinionated nothing a trial, an overturnal like your conviction

1000
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:44,000
Speaker 8: being overturned, an acquittal, that's not going to change their mind.

1001
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:45,920
Speaker 7: She said, you want to get out and help people.

1002
00:48:46,239 --> 00:48:48,040
Speaker 7: You can do that. You want to get out and

1003
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:50,000
Speaker 7: have a baby. You will be young enough to do

1004
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 7: that now, she said, hold on to the things that

1005
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:54,520
Speaker 7: you can do and let go of the things that

1006
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 7: you can't and sign the paper.

1007
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:01,880
Speaker 1: And you did. I think any reasonable person in your

1008
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:05,440
Speaker 1: situation would have signed that paper because you had seen

1009
00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:09,279
Speaker 1: the worst of what American justice system can dish out.

1010
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:13,239
Speaker 1: At that point, you knew that they were going to

1011
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:17,040
Speaker 1: go to any lanes they had to to reconvict you

1012
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:21,120
Speaker 1: and send you back to hell, basically for as long

1013
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:21,640
Speaker 1: as they could.

1014
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:24,920
Speaker 8: Right, I'm not in prison anymore, So I'm back logged

1015
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:27,400
Speaker 8: down with a totally group of people.

1016
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 7: I'm restricted from all of my friends. You make friends

1017
00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:31,640
Speaker 7: in prison.

1018
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:35,000
Speaker 8: We have Joehaus lawyers in prison called law clerks, so

1019
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 8: all of the people that can understand and empathize and

1020
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:42,279
Speaker 8: actually talk about what the court proceedings and what's going

1021
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:44,640
Speaker 8: on and fully understand them and give me advice. I'm

1022
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:47,200
Speaker 8: not even allowed to communicate with these people. We're not

1023
00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 8: allowed to write, we're not allowed to talk, We're not

1024
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:52,439
Speaker 8: allowed to do anything. So I once again was back

1025
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:54,960
Speaker 8: at square one, and I was all alone, and I

1026
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:58,279
Speaker 8: was tired, and I was going to court, and I

1027
00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:01,520
Speaker 8: was just sitting there and watching them do the same

1028
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:03,600
Speaker 8: thing to me that they had done all over again,

1029
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:06,400
Speaker 8: and acting like the Supreme Court decision had never happened.

1030
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:10,640
Speaker 8: And so when they offered me a piece of paper

1031
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:12,840
Speaker 8: to sign, it was unreal.

1032
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:15,520
Speaker 7: They told me I would walk out that day.

1033
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:19,080
Speaker 1: You're sort of signing your life away, right, because once

1034
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:23,120
Speaker 1: you signed that Alfred plea. You're not able to sue.

1035
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:24,840
Speaker 7: Them, they're not liable for anything.

1036
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:27,840
Speaker 1: On top of that, you're living as a convicted felon,

1037
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:31,719
Speaker 1: even though the Tennessee Supreme Court has said five to

1038
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:35,680
Speaker 1: nothing that basically that's not true. So it's really a

1039
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:39,480
Speaker 1: Sophie's choice kind of situation, right, and you took the

1040
00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:42,880
Speaker 1: logical choice, but you took it under false pretenses, thinking

1041
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:45,200
Speaker 1: that you were going to be freed that day, and

1042
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:49,160
Speaker 1: instead you're sent back to prison for fifteen months, which

1043
00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:53,000
Speaker 1: is I don't know, it's really just it's just hard,

1044
00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:56,279
Speaker 1: like it's hard for me to just wrap my head around.

1045
00:50:56,400 --> 00:50:57,480
Speaker 7: That was my lowest point.

1046
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:01,680
Speaker 8: So when I get there, TDC is like, we did

1047
00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:04,239
Speaker 8: not tell your lawyers that you will go home. We

1048
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:06,920
Speaker 8: told your lawyers that you would be eligible for a parole.

1049
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:09,600
Speaker 8: And when I was sitting there taking the plea that day,

1050
00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:11,920
Speaker 8: that's what Chris Kraft that George was saying, you'll go

1051
00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:14,759
Speaker 8: back and you'll be eligible for parole. But one of

1052
00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:16,920
Speaker 8: the things that my attorney's told me before I took

1053
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:19,520
Speaker 8: the stand was, look, don't listen to anything he says. Okay,

1054
00:51:20,120 --> 00:51:23,759
Speaker 8: he doesn't know you're getting out we've arranged this with TDOC.

1055
00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:26,800
Speaker 8: They just know you're taking the plea. They don't understand

1056
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:29,520
Speaker 8: how much good time you have. So if he says

1057
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:32,319
Speaker 8: something that makes you, like, you know, uncomfortable, ignore it.

1058
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:34,880
Speaker 8: Don't listen to anything he's saying. So I get on

1059
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:36,319
Speaker 8: the stand and he's saying that I'm going to go

1060
00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:38,960
Speaker 8: back to prison. At this point, like I'm not even

1061
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:41,160
Speaker 8: acknowledging my lawyers in the courtroom, I'm looking at miss

1062
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:45,360
Speaker 8: pat and she is willing me like a mother because

1063
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:48,680
Speaker 8: I feel like she became my adoptive mother. I'm looking

1064
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:51,040
Speaker 8: at her and my ex boyfriend's mother, Ansley, and these

1065
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:54,720
Speaker 8: two women are a force of nature, like their eye contact.

1066
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:56,240
Speaker 7: Is trying to pull me off the stand.

1067
00:51:56,760 --> 00:51:59,560
Speaker 8: They are looking like, oh shit, like something has gone

1068
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:02,759
Speaker 8: terrible wrong. They just knew, you know, because they weren't

1069
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:04,480
Speaker 8: back there when my lawyers were telling me all this,

1070
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:08,839
Speaker 8: and they're thinking that I'm signing this plea and I'm

1071
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:09,680
Speaker 8: getting out that day.

1072
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:11,319
Speaker 7: They've gone out and they've bought me root beer.

1073
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:13,640
Speaker 8: They've bought me clothes, they bought me a toothbrush, and

1074
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:15,399
Speaker 8: they're gonna be waiting on me when I get out

1075
00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:17,640
Speaker 8: and they're sitting there listening to the judge saying I'm

1076
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:18,759
Speaker 8: gonna go up for parole, and.

1077
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:20,600
Speaker 7: Everybody we're all really confused.

1078
00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:22,920
Speaker 8: So I get off the stand and I go back

1079
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:25,640
Speaker 8: to the back room with my attorneys, and they're like,

1080
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:28,960
Speaker 8: but you're not even smiling, like this is so exciting,

1081
00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:32,319
Speaker 8: you're about to walk out of here, and I said,

1082
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:36,160
Speaker 8: I don't. I don't think I'm gonna believe it until

1083
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:39,600
Speaker 8: it actually happens. So I go back to the jail,

1084
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:42,560
Speaker 8: I give away all my stuff. I check the computer.

1085
00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 8: It says disposed, So then it's real to me. I'm

1086
00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:49,600
Speaker 8: getting out of here. My case is disposed of. So

1087
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:52,319
Speaker 8: they say, nor you have a visit. I go up

1088
00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:55,880
Speaker 8: to the top of the steps. It's one of my friends, Jennifer,

1089
00:52:56,840 --> 00:53:00,200
Speaker 8: my mom's name, that was actually formally incarcerated with me,

1090
00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:04,320
Speaker 8: her and her girlfriend, and they're like, Nora, we asked

1091
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:06,319
Speaker 8: them what time you were getting out, because we were

1092
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:08,400
Speaker 8: just going to wait on you and surprise you, and

1093
00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:10,440
Speaker 8: they said, you have a fifteen year old for the

1094
00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:14,240
Speaker 8: penitentiary in the computer. And I just left my visit

1095
00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:17,360
Speaker 8: and I walked downstairs to the officer and I was like,

1096
00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:19,200
Speaker 8: I want you to check that computer again.

1097
00:53:19,640 --> 00:53:21,600
Speaker 7: She was like, Nora, we already checked it. And I said, no,

1098
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:23,000
Speaker 7: I want you to check it again.

1099
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:27,200
Speaker 8: And she did it and it said fifteen years because that's

1100
00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:30,440
Speaker 8: what I had signed for, so it said fifteen years

1101
00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:35,399
Speaker 8: hold TDOC, which is Department of Corrections. So that meant

1102
00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:37,920
Speaker 8: that I had to go back to TDOC and they

1103
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:39,360
Speaker 8: needed to calculate my time.

1104
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:40,920
Speaker 7: I went back to.

1105
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:47,439
Speaker 8: TEDC and that was in May of twenty fifteen. When

1106
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:51,080
Speaker 8: I got there, my expiration date, which is the day

1107
00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:53,239
Speaker 8: that I would get out, was sitting in July of

1108
00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:58,200
Speaker 8: twenty seventeen. I was past my parole eligibility date. So

1109
00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:00,239
Speaker 8: I get there and they're like, Nora, you're on the

1110
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:03,719
Speaker 8: parole docket. And I just looked at the counselor and

1111
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:05,400
Speaker 8: I don't think anyone has ever said this before. And

1112
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:07,719
Speaker 8: I looked at her and I said, fuck parol. And

1113
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:10,439
Speaker 8: she was like what. And I was like, I don't

1114
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:14,840
Speaker 8: trust you. I don't trust TDOC, and I don't trust

1115
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:17,880
Speaker 8: the State of Tennessee. And I'm refusing to go up

1116
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:19,760
Speaker 8: for a parole. And she was like, Nord, you cannot

1117
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:21,640
Speaker 8: refuse to go out for a parole. I said, I

1118
00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:24,560
Speaker 8: am not going to go up and say I'm sorry

1119
00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:27,200
Speaker 8: for a crime I didn't commit. Please let me out,

1120
00:54:27,239 --> 00:54:30,040
Speaker 8: and then I'm under state supervision for two years.

1121
00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:30,759
Speaker 7: I said.

1122
00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:33,359
Speaker 8: I don't have anybody waiting on me out there, I said,

1123
00:54:33,400 --> 00:54:35,200
Speaker 8: and I don't trust anybody out there, and I'm going

1124
00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:36,480
Speaker 8: to flatten my sentence.

1125
00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:37,720
Speaker 7: So let me explain.

1126
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:40,239
Speaker 8: Flatten means that I would sit there and earn my

1127
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:43,239
Speaker 8: good time and meet my date. So I could have

1128
00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:45,319
Speaker 8: gone up for parole. I might have gotten it, I

1129
00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:47,359
Speaker 8: might not have. But if I would have gone out

1130
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:49,800
Speaker 8: on parole, then that means I would have been under

1131
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:53,839
Speaker 8: the Tennessee State supervision for two more years, which means

1132
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:55,680
Speaker 8: Amy Wyrick would have been.

1133
00:54:57,160 --> 00:54:59,480
Speaker 7: Like over me for two more years.

1134
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:02,680
Speaker 8: Isn't about to release what little control I had back

1135
00:55:02,719 --> 00:55:06,760
Speaker 8: to them at this point, to be quite honest, nothing personal.

1136
00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:10,840
Speaker 8: I didn't trust my lawyers, I didn't trust TDC, I

1137
00:55:10,840 --> 00:55:11,800
Speaker 8: didn't trust anyone.

1138
00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:13,719
Speaker 7: So I had to trust myself.

1139
00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:16,520
Speaker 8: So I sat there for fifteen more months so I

1140
00:55:16,560 --> 00:55:18,800
Speaker 8: could walk out of there and never look back.

1141
00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:23,120
Speaker 10: Yeah, and think about this. She gets a decision from

1142
00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:27,680
Speaker 10: the Tennessee Supreme Court unanimous that puts her in the

1143
00:55:27,680 --> 00:55:31,160
Speaker 10: position of she's innocent, no more guilty than you or

1144
00:55:31,200 --> 00:55:34,760
Speaker 10: me of this crime, and she waits months and months

1145
00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:38,719
Speaker 10: and months to even get a hearing about whether she

1146
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:43,000
Speaker 10: can get bond. There is no daylight but this one

1147
00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:46,440
Speaker 10: option that is put in front of her, and then

1148
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:49,920
Speaker 10: the rug is pulled right underneath her. And it's just

1149
00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:56,520
Speaker 10: all of this to prevent her from just bringing the

1150
00:55:56,560 --> 00:55:58,120
Speaker 10: light of the day to what happened.

1151
00:55:58,160 --> 00:55:58,319
Speaker 1: Here.

1152
00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:01,680
Speaker 10: We see this over and over again, where you've got

1153
00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:08,040
Speaker 10: innocent people who are stuck behind bars with no legal justification,

1154
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:12,600
Speaker 10: and they're given this forced choice because the government holds

1155
00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:13,560
Speaker 10: all the cards.

1156
00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:18,359
Speaker 1: Norah, Then, what was it like for you the day

1157
00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:21,440
Speaker 1: you got out, you finally got out, how'd you feel?

1158
00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:24,200
Speaker 7: It was unreal?

1159
00:56:25,160 --> 00:56:27,320
Speaker 8: Up until the moment that I walked out this sally

1160
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:30,200
Speaker 8: port the gates, I didn't think I would really get out.

1161
00:56:30,239 --> 00:56:32,680
Speaker 8: They had played with They would release me at twelve

1162
00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:35,480
Speaker 8: o'clock midnight, then they would release me at four o'clock

1163
00:56:35,520 --> 00:56:37,600
Speaker 8: the next day, and then I ended up leaving at

1164
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:40,520
Speaker 8: eight thirty and the warden actually came and told me

1165
00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:42,440
Speaker 8: if I told anyone when I was leaving, they wouldn't

1166
00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:44,640
Speaker 8: release me at all. But I knew I was expiating,

1167
00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:47,000
Speaker 8: and I knew I would get out, and I signed

1168
00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:49,799
Speaker 8: the piece of paper, but I didn't believe it, just

1169
00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:52,920
Speaker 8: because of everything that had happened on my journey, that

1170
00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:54,400
Speaker 8: it would really really happen.

1171
00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:57,040
Speaker 7: And I got out and Ansley was there.

1172
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:01,600
Speaker 8: I was so lucky and so happy to have her.

1173
00:57:01,640 --> 00:57:06,400
Speaker 8: But I honestly think being out, I knew that my

1174
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:08,280
Speaker 8: mom was gone, and I knew.

1175
00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:09,279
Speaker 7: That someone had killed her.

1176
00:57:09,920 --> 00:57:13,080
Speaker 8: People talk all the time in prison about going home

1177
00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:18,920
Speaker 8: because they have this idea of home, and I don't

1178
00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:21,200
Speaker 8: really know what a home is for me right now,

1179
00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:24,600
Speaker 8: and so I think getting out has been such a

1180
00:57:24,640 --> 00:57:27,400
Speaker 8: blessing and I'm so grateful. And I used to always

1181
00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:31,960
Speaker 8: think that getting out was the hard part, getting released,

1182
00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:36,520
Speaker 8: getting free, but life after something like this is the

1183
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:41,040
Speaker 8: hard part. I took that plea because I thought I

1184
00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:44,720
Speaker 8: would get out that day and that didn't happen. And

1185
00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:46,960
Speaker 8: so there are times that I think I wonder that

1186
00:57:47,080 --> 00:57:50,280
Speaker 8: if I made a really big mistake, because being a

1187
00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:52,440
Speaker 8: fella in today's world is really hard. A lot of

1188
00:57:52,440 --> 00:57:54,959
Speaker 8: people aren't like you. They don't understand that the justice

1189
00:57:54,960 --> 00:57:59,360
Speaker 8: system is flawed and unfair. Getting a job is hard,

1190
00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:02,960
Speaker 8: finding a place to live as hard, but I'm still lucky.

1191
00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:04,440
Speaker 7: I find myself.

1192
00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:08,240
Speaker 8: When I talk to my friends in prison, it's like

1193
00:58:08,680 --> 00:58:11,920
Speaker 8: I don't even want to tell them these things, because

1194
00:58:11,920 --> 00:58:14,520
Speaker 8: who am I to complain when they're still sitting in there?

1195
00:58:14,640 --> 00:58:17,880
Speaker 7: You know, but these are the things they don't tell

1196
00:58:17,920 --> 00:58:19,520
Speaker 7: you when you're in there.

1197
00:58:22,640 --> 00:58:27,240
Speaker 1: I think. I guess I'm just going to say, everyone

1198
00:58:27,240 --> 00:58:30,840
Speaker 1: who's listening out there, get involved. Donate to your local

1199
00:58:30,920 --> 00:58:35,520
Speaker 1: innocence project, go online, read about these issues, write to

1200
00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:40,120
Speaker 1: someone in prison. Support organizations like Women Empowered to Become

1201
00:58:40,160 --> 00:58:42,320
Speaker 1: Self Sufficient that meant so much to Nora when she

1202
00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:46,160
Speaker 1: was in Check them out and vote. Nora can't, but

1203
00:58:46,280 --> 00:58:50,760
Speaker 1: you can, and so get out there and make a difference,

1204
00:58:50,800 --> 00:58:53,680
Speaker 1: because you know it's time. It's time for us to

1205
00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:57,600
Speaker 1: turn this whole tide around. We have a tradition here

1206
00:58:57,680 --> 00:59:01,280
Speaker 1: Nora at Wrongful Conviction, which is that to close the show,

1207
00:59:01,640 --> 00:59:04,560
Speaker 1: I like to just turn the microphone over to you

1208
00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:07,240
Speaker 1: for any closing thoughts that you want to share.

1209
00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:15,120
Speaker 8: I don't know, I just I'm just one.

1210
00:59:15,680 --> 00:59:16,680
Speaker 7: I'm one of many.

1211
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:22,560
Speaker 8: There are Michelle's and Shane's, and Joscelyn's and Octavia's and

1212
00:59:23,400 --> 00:59:26,240
Speaker 8: so many people like me that are sitting inside that

1213
00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:29,880
Speaker 8: haven't gotten the opportunity or the chances that I've gotten,

1214
00:59:29,920 --> 00:59:32,600
Speaker 8: that are just waiting on someone like the Innocence Project

1215
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:35,600
Speaker 8: to accept their case. So I guess what I would

1216
00:59:35,640 --> 00:59:38,200
Speaker 8: say is I just hope that the people are listening.

1217
00:59:38,320 --> 00:59:43,040
Speaker 7: R is that like any little bit counts, And I just.

1218
00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:45,680
Speaker 8: Hope that people are able to look at this with

1219
00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:48,280
Speaker 8: an objectivity that maybe they didn't have.

1220
00:59:49,080 --> 00:59:52,000
Speaker 1: I want to thank you both for being on the show,

1221
00:59:52,520 --> 00:59:57,600
Speaker 1: Bryce for sharing your wisdom of all these years, and Nora,

1222
00:59:57,720 --> 01:00:01,240
Speaker 1: of course you. I can't even know put into words

1223
01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:03,920
Speaker 1: how much it means to have you here, and I

1224
01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:05,920
Speaker 1: know the best is yet to come for you. We're

1225
01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:10,600
Speaker 1: all on your side, and we're fucking pissed too, Sonna.

1226
01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:14,040
Speaker 1: We're all gonna have to practice Sarah together. And I

1227
01:00:14,080 --> 01:00:17,280
Speaker 1: also want to give special thanks to Emily Basilon, who

1228
01:00:17,360 --> 01:00:21,120
Speaker 1: first brought so much attention to your case. Extraordinary writer

1229
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:24,440
Speaker 1: for The New York Times, a scholar at Yale Law School.

1230
01:00:24,880 --> 01:00:28,680
Speaker 1: She doesn't fuck around, and another badass, another badass. A

1231
01:00:28,680 --> 01:00:30,800
Speaker 1: lot of badass women on your side now, which is great.

1232
01:00:31,240 --> 01:00:35,080
Speaker 1: So this has been a very special episode of Wrongful Conviction.

1233
01:00:35,200 --> 01:00:38,280
Speaker 1: Thanks to you, Nora, and what else can I say?

1234
01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:40,760
Speaker 1: Thanks for being here, thank you for having me, Thanks

1235
01:00:52,960 --> 01:00:55,560
Speaker 1: don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you

1236
01:00:55,640 --> 01:00:59,280
Speaker 1: get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a proud

1237
01:00:59,320 --> 01:01:01,919
Speaker 1: donor into the Innocence Project and I really hope you'll

1238
01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:05,400
Speaker 1: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping

1239
01:01:05,520 --> 01:01:09,040
Speaker 1: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot

1240
01:01:09,120 --> 01:01:12,240
Speaker 1: orgorg to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd

1241
01:01:12,240 --> 01:01:15,360
Speaker 1: like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis.

1242
01:01:15,680 --> 01:01:17,960
Speaker 1: The music in the show is by three time Oscar

1243
01:01:18,000 --> 01:01:21,040
Speaker 1: nominade composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on

1244
01:01:21,080 --> 01:01:25,880
Speaker 1: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast.

1245
01:01:26,240 --> 01:01:29,280
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flahm is a production of Lava

1246
01:01:29,320 --> 01:01:36,439
Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one