1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,000 Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet is doing a 2 00:00:02,080 --> 00:00:05,760 Speaker 1: live show at Caveat in New York City on Friday. 3 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:08,159 Speaker 1: You can also attend virtually for wherever you're at in 4 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:11,399 Speaker 1: the world. We'll have super cool guests, a meet and greet, 5 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 1: and a lot more. Go to Tango dot com slash 6 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: Live to get tickets. That's t A n g O 7 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:20,279 Speaker 1: t I dot com slash Live and I cannot wait 8 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: to see you there. Our bodies are open source software, 9 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: right like anybody can dig in, anybody can abstract and 10 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 1: it's just for the public good. There Are No Girls 11 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 1: on the Internet as a production of I Heart Radio 12 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this is There 13 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 1: Are No Girls on the Internet. I believe in the 14 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 1: power of technology. I wouldn't make this podcast if I didn't. 15 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 1: But I've also seen the ways that things like misogyny 16 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 1: and racism are baked into the foundation of technology in 17 00:00:57,240 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: the Internet, and when so much of it plays such 18 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 1: a big part in all of our lives, it's something 19 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:04,680 Speaker 1: we really need to contend with. And the early days 20 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:07,119 Speaker 1: of YouTube are a great example of exactly what I mean. 21 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 1: So the story of how YouTube got started is actually 22 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: a story about how a black woman's trauma would be 23 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:17,760 Speaker 1: the inspiration for an entire generation of streaming technology. It 24 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:19,960 Speaker 1: can tell us a lot about how we all show 25 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:24,399 Speaker 1: up online. My decision to change the super Bowl performance 26 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 1: was actually made after the final rehearsal, and unfortunately the 27 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: whole thing went wrong in the end. So you probably 28 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:35,480 Speaker 1: remember the super Bowl halftime show back in two thousand four. 29 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 1: Here's a quick summary of what happened at a high 30 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 1: point of a historic career that spanned dance, singing, and acting. 31 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:45,959 Speaker 1: Pop music sensation Janet Jackson was performing at the super 32 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 1: Bowl halftime show alongside surprise guest Justin Timberlake. As timber 33 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 1: Lake reached the final line of the song Rock Your Body, 34 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 1: which goes gonna have You naked by the end of 35 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 1: this song, he pulls off part of Jackson's costume, exposing 36 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: her breast to a hundred and fifty million viewers for 37 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: a fraction of a second. I remember the incident well 38 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: and the complete media firestorm that it created. Janet Jackson 39 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 1: was the most searched person for two thousand four and 40 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:17,639 Speaker 1: two thousand five, and representatives from the television recording device 41 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 1: TiVo said that not only was the incident the most 42 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 1: replayed moment in the entire history of the device, but 43 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:27,839 Speaker 1: it also drove more than twenty people to subscribe to TiVo. 44 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:31,360 Speaker 1: Now what I remember the clearest about this incident is 45 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 1: Janet herself talking about how traumatic it was for her. 46 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 1: It's truly embarrassing to know that ninety million people saw 47 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 1: my breast and then to see it blown up on 48 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 1: the internet the size of the computer screen. There are 49 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 1: much worse things in the world, and for this to 50 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 1: be such a focus, I don't understand, she told USA Today. 51 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,800 Speaker 1: This moment and our collective reaction to it revealed a 52 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 1: lot about intersecting issues that we sometimes have trouble talking 53 00:02:56,600 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 1: about gender, race, sexuality, all unfolding against a media climate 54 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 1: ready and willing to publicly denigrate a black woman. To 55 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 1: better understand this moment, how it led to the creation 56 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 1: of YouTube, and what it says about our current internet 57 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:16,079 Speaker 1: landscape for black women and everybody, I turned to Kimberly Foster. 58 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:22,079 Speaker 1: My name is Kimberly Foster. I am a writer, editor, 59 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:28,799 Speaker 1: content creator, cultural critic, a whole bunch of things. Kimberly 60 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 1: has been unpacking black feminist thought online for over a 61 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 1: decade with her digital community for black women called for Harriet. 62 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 1: You really have built your own lane using technology and 63 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 1: digital media and the Internet with for Harriet. And I 64 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 1: know that this really came up at a time where 65 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 1: there wasn't really a lot of spaces to get black 66 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: feminist thought online. I would love to know how that 67 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 1: came to be, Like how you came to be this, 68 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: this woman who kind of made your own lane having 69 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 1: an opinion on the Internet. And what does it feel 70 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 1: like to be such an earlier originator of black feminist 71 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 1: online discourse? Oh well, first of all, that's so nice. 72 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. I appreciate that. I think I've 73 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 1: always been obsessed with the Internet ever since I can remember. 74 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 1: We first got on the Internet when I was in 75 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 1: kindergarten and my mom is an engineer, so she was 76 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 1: so pro technology and so pro computers and exploration. She 77 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 1: actually gave me my first HTML book and it's like 78 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 1: have fun, go crazy, And so ever since I was 79 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 1: in elementary school, I've just been like, what is this? 80 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:38,840 Speaker 1: And I learned that you can connect to people and 81 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 1: create your own spaces and create your own websites. And 82 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:45,359 Speaker 1: as I got older, I was like oh wait, like 83 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:49,280 Speaker 1: I can have my own magazine, I can have my 84 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 1: own website where it's all my thoughts and I have 85 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:55,919 Speaker 1: complete control. And so I was all in on that 86 00:04:56,279 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 1: in my teenage years, blogging and on the message for 87 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:02,719 Speaker 1: and all of that. And then I went to college 88 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:07,160 Speaker 1: and I developed a very strong political ideology. In college, 89 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 1: I discovered black feminism, and so I wanted to figure 90 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 1: out a way to meld my obsession with the Internet, 91 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 1: my desire to share my unique viewpoints and my own 92 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: kimberly owned space on the Internet, with this burgeoning political 93 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 1: ideology that meant a lot to me. And so I 94 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 1: came up with the idea for for Harriet, which would 95 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:35,480 Speaker 1: be a black feminist digital community where black women who 96 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:38,839 Speaker 1: thought like me. Because of course, all black women aren't progressive, 97 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 1: all black women aren't feminists. I wanted to create a 98 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:45,920 Speaker 1: congregating space where we could just talk about our lives 99 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 1: and our experiences and our politics and the childs and tribulations, 100 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 1: especially as a straight woman of dealing with men, you know. 101 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 1: And so junior year in college, I I launched this space. 102 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,920 Speaker 1: Since there's been no looking back since then you were 103 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 1: at Harvard, right, I was did you see someone who 104 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 1: looked like you doing this, Like it would have never 105 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:16,040 Speaker 1: occurred to me in college to build my own space 106 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 1: online using the internet for for other black women who 107 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 1: felt like me, And how did my same perspectives? Was 108 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,479 Speaker 1: there did you? Because there just wasn't really anybody doing that. 109 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 1: The only thing I can think of is um Kadijia 110 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 1: from living single having her own magazine. But we didn't 111 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 1: really see that. Was there something that made you think like, oh, 112 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 1: I can do this, or this is a pathway for me, 113 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:38,479 Speaker 1: or were you just blazing your own blazing your own trail. 114 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:41,840 Speaker 1: Oh I'm so glad that you asked this question because 115 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 1: I always say that citation is a fundamental part of 116 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 1: a black feminist ethics. So I'm so excited I get 117 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 1: to shout these people out. So when I first decided 118 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:55,159 Speaker 1: that I wanted to make for Harriet, I was starting 119 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:58,799 Speaker 1: to creep into black feminist spaces online and they did exist. 120 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 1: There are a couple that I love of the Feminist Wire, 121 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:07,040 Speaker 1: which was a great collective of black feminist scholars in 122 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 1: the academy, and the Krunk Feminist Collective, which was another 123 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 1: assembly of black feminist women who were academics my viewpoint, 124 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 1: I felt like was a little bit different because I 125 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 1: was still so young. I was still trying to figure 126 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 1: it out, and I wanted to create a way to 127 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 1: bridge the critical, path breaking work that these women were 128 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 1: doing in the academy, which I mean I was still 129 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 1: in college with some of the pop culture stuff that 130 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 1: I love, which is some of the normal everyday experiences 131 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:46,559 Speaker 1: of women who maybe wouldn't necessarily identify with feminism, but knew, 132 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 1: like this ship is fucked up, when we gotta do 133 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: something else. YouTube was initially started as a dating app 134 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 1: where users could upload videos of themselves talking about what 135 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 1: they're looking for in a partner, but it wasn't really working. 136 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 1: Co found er Joeed Kareem told south By Southwest that 137 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 1: they actually had to find women on Craigslist and offer 138 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 1: them twenty dollars to upload videos of themselves to YouTube, 139 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 1: but even with that cash incentive, people just really weren't interested, 140 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 1: so the co founders had to go back to the 141 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 1: drawing board. Janet Jackson's Super Bowl performance happened in two 142 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 1: thousand four, and about a year later, YouTube's co founders 143 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 1: were talking about wanting to watch it again, but they 144 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 1: couldn't back in two thousand five, there was really no 145 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: way to watch the incident or really any online content 146 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 1: on demand online because this was before streaming video and 147 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 1: also predates what we think of as viral videos. Unless 148 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 1: you happen to be recording it on TiVo or on 149 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:42,679 Speaker 1: an old school DCR, there kind of wasn't a way 150 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 1: to see it. Kareem told USA Today. They thought, wouldn't 151 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 1: it be great if people could see and share the 152 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 1: video of the incident whenever they wanted, And with this, 153 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 1: the desire to see and shared and consume Janet Jackson's 154 00:08:56,440 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: breast on demand YouTube was born a year later. I'm 155 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 1: at Janet Jackson super Fan was one of my first concerts, 156 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:07,440 Speaker 1: and so one of the things that that people I 157 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 1: think don't really know a lot about is the way 158 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 1: that this one traumatic moment in her life really did 159 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:16,840 Speaker 1: shape a lot of what it means to show up online. 160 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:19,080 Speaker 1: And so you talked about the way that YouTube was 161 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 1: really inspired by at her wardrobe malfunction at the Super Bowl? 162 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 1: Can you talk to tell us a little bit about that? Yeah, So, 163 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 1: I too, am a Janet Jackson stand shout out to 164 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: my mother. When I was twelve years old, she took 165 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 1: me to see the alf You Tour, which actually was 166 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 1: a little a little risk at some risking parts in it. 167 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 1: But I'm so glad that she did that because it 168 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:46,840 Speaker 1: completely just opened up my mind and just made me 169 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 1: just hone in on Janet as the originator, the queen 170 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 1: of pop. Do not debate me, um, and so I 171 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:58,559 Speaker 1: was really excited for the two part documentary UM that 172 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:02,080 Speaker 1: she had a hand in because she's been so historically private. 173 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 1: And of course I watched the documentary and then there's 174 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 1: all of this commentary about it, and that commentary led 175 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 1: me to go down all of these little rabbit holes 176 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 1: and learn more about the incident nipplegate, and so I read, 177 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 1: I mean, I watched the New York Times little um 178 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 1: is it a you know this little I hesitate to 179 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 1: call it documentary, it's like an exploration of the incident, 180 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:32,679 Speaker 1: watched all kinds of YouTube videos, listen to podcasts about it, 181 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 1: and I came away feeling differently. But really what struck 182 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:43,079 Speaker 1: me was how the fearer over this incident, the desire 183 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 1: for people to see Janet Jackson's exposed nipple, inspired these 184 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 1: and like science science of um technology to like create 185 00:10:56,679 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 1: this technology. So that people could watch it like YouTube, right, 186 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:04,079 Speaker 1: So the founders of YouTube were like, hey, we need 187 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 1: to create a platform where like people can see this 188 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:10,080 Speaker 1: lady's boob on demand. And then they're like, okay, well, 189 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 1: let's dedicate our resources to creating this platform where people 190 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 1: can see this woman's boob on demand, despite the fact 191 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 1: that her entire life was derailed because of people's desire, 192 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: you know, like the simultaneous desire and repulsion from her boom. 193 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 1: I thought, I felt like that was really interesting. And 194 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: of course YouTube blows up and it's now, what is 195 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 1: it the second largest search engine in the world. And 196 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:39,840 Speaker 1: then Netflix, you know, the founder of or one of 197 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 1: the heads of Netflix, was like, oh, okay, there's a 198 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 1: there's a market for streaming, so let's go all in 199 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 1: on the streaming market that YouTube proved was viable. So 200 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 1: all of this comes from the desire, a very distinct 201 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: desire for people to see this one particular moment that 202 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:06,560 Speaker 1: ultimately derailed Janet Jackson's career and changed her life. And 203 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: it's so unfortunate for me, as Janet Jackson stand that 204 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: it's almost like you can't even mentioned Janet without talking 205 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:16,960 Speaker 1: about nipplegate. When in reality, she's so much more than that. 206 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 1: But of course, as black women, whenever there's an opportunity, 207 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: we're always going to be reduced, not only to our 208 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 1: most humiliating moments, what we're going to be reduced down 209 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 1: to our body parts. And so I thought it was 210 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:33,199 Speaker 1: really important to note that that moment created these technologies 211 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:37,200 Speaker 1: that now we're spending all of our time on. Yeah, 212 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 1: I think that you put that so well, and I 213 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 1: do want to note I think that when people want 214 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 1: to disrespect and dinnigrade Janet, they always say, oh, she 215 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:49,120 Speaker 1: did that at the super Bowl because she her career 216 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 1: was in the gutter and she was just trying to 217 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 1: get people talking about her. If your career is in 218 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 1: the gutter, you're not performing at the super Bowl. Like her, 219 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:58,920 Speaker 1: her career was massively successful way before that. You know, 220 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 1: this idea that she was like a nobody who was 221 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:02,559 Speaker 1: just trying to get attention on this is something I 222 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 1: hate when people say that because it's just so verifiably false. 223 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 1: I mean, this is the thing. And not to get 224 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 1: me off of my Janet stand back, but I'm so 225 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:20,079 Speaker 1: glad that that documentary highlighted the number of records that 226 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:24,079 Speaker 1: Janet Jackson broke throughout her career. At one point she 227 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:28,200 Speaker 1: had the biggest she signed the biggest recording deal ever 228 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 1: for a woman in pop music ever black white, like 229 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:35,199 Speaker 1: other ever, she was it. There was like she had 230 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 1: two albums where there was like six top ten singles, 231 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 1: like this is a huge artists selling out concerts all 232 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:47,680 Speaker 1: around the world. Like it's easy for us to forget, 233 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 1: particularly when it comes to black women's accomplishments, how enormous 234 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 1: they are. But Janet was it. And so yes, I 235 00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 1: so agree with you that the idea that she was 236 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 1: somehow floundering or that she had to do this because 237 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 1: she needed money or attention or whatever, like she was 238 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 1: the spectacle, Like she was it. She was if I'm 239 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:18,720 Speaker 1: right there with you, you know, why do you think 240 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 1: that it is not like you were talking earlier about 241 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 1: how things like Netflix and YouTube, but they're their websites 242 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 1: that we use, our technologies that we use, they're commonplace, 243 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 1: we use them all the time. Why do you think 244 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 1: the way that a black woman's trauma was sort of 245 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 1: the foundation for these things that go on to be 246 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 1: so ubiquitous in all of our lives. Why is that erased? 247 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 1: Why do you think that's not a common knowledge. I 248 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 1: think because black women's bodies, in particular in our traumas, 249 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 1: generally are seen as public property. There is generally a 250 00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 1: sense of entitlement, like we should just be happy to 251 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 1: give these things over, to sacrifice them that they are, 252 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 1: you know, like our bodies are like open source software, right, 253 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 1: like anybody can dig in, anybody can extract, and it's 254 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 1: just for the public good. And so there's no, like 255 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 1: you mentioned, thought given to how is the person you're 256 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 1: extracting from being harmed by this? In Janet's case, and 257 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 1: obviously historically, I mean that goes that's centuries. Let's take 258 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 1: a quick breaker back. I've seen the ways that misogyny 259 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 1: and massogy noire, the way that sexism and racism intersect 260 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 1: to oppress Black women specifically, is baked into technology. And 261 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 1: it's not surprising to me given how many technological innovations 262 00:15:55,760 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 1: were inspired by sexism. For instance, back in two thousands three, 263 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 1: Harvard University student named Mark Zuckerbird made face mash, a 264 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 1: social media platform to rate women on their looks. Here's 265 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 1: what zuck himself had to say, I'm a little intoxicated, 266 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 1: not gonna lie. So what if it's not even ten 267 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 1: pm and it's a Tuesday night. The Kirkland Dorm Facebook 268 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 1: is open on my desktop and some of these people 269 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: have pretty horrendous pictures. I almost want to put some 270 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 1: of these faces next to pictures of farm animals and 271 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 1: if people vote on which is more attractive. The site 272 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 1: was taken down by Harvard and a year later Facebook 273 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 1: was born. So we already know the world is full 274 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 1: of things like classism, eble iss um, sexism, racism, and 275 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 1: all the other isms that keep us from being free. 276 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 1: And it's really tempting to be hopeful and think that 277 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 1: technology won't just replicate these harmful oppressions, but Kimberly says 278 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 1: it takes intentional un learning and vigilance to really see 279 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: how these systems show up and intercept, and if tech 280 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 1: leaders are unable or unwilling to do this work, they'll 281 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 1: just end up creating technologies that recreate these same harmful systems. 282 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 1: I believe massa genique, specifically massogyn noir like shout out 283 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 1: to Moya Bailey, is baked into the foundation of so 284 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 1: much technology and so much of the experience of being 285 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:11,400 Speaker 1: on the Internet. And I really see this idea that 286 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:14,160 Speaker 1: YouTube was founded on this trauma that a black woman 287 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:16,879 Speaker 1: experienced so publicly is a great example of that. And 288 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:18,480 Speaker 1: you know, do you agree with this, Like, what do 289 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: you think about that? I think that the foundations of 290 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 1: our society are built off of misogyn noire, and because 291 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:31,159 Speaker 1: people are not doing the work to actively unlearn it 292 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:34,879 Speaker 1: or to actively wrestle with it or deal with their biases, 293 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:38,199 Speaker 1: that it creeps into every facet of our society. And 294 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 1: despite the fact that people who work in technology believe 295 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 1: themselves to be particularly progressive and forward thinking, of course 296 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:52,719 Speaker 1: it seeps into those worlds as well. And so if 297 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 1: we're not having conversations constantly about hey, you are perpetuating 298 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:02,399 Speaker 1: massogyn noir right now, it's it's just gonna be there. 299 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's baked into the cake, it's baked 300 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 1: into to our psyches. So yeah, it's it's pretty This 301 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:12,880 Speaker 1: is depressing, but it feels like an inevitability because most 302 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: people aren't doing that work. So you so you see 303 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:21,920 Speaker 1: technology as kind of amplifying and elevating this massage and 304 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:24,919 Speaker 1: noir that's just already in society. And so when you 305 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 1: build something online or when you use technology to build 306 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:31,399 Speaker 1: something and you don't intentionally work to dismantle that or 307 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:35,440 Speaker 1: unlearn that or unpack that, you are simply baking that 308 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:40,880 Speaker 1: same massage no more into whatever you're designing. Absolutely, and 309 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: it's massagyn noir and all sorts of other biases homophobia, transphobia, classism, 310 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 1: it's all of that. We're just it's easy to ignore 311 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:55,680 Speaker 1: if you don't have to grapple with it every day. Yeah, 312 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 1: and I mean, I feel like I see this. I'm 313 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 1: like you. I love the Internet. I grew up on 314 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 1: the internet. The Internet is, you know, my hometown in 315 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,919 Speaker 1: a lot of ways. And I am not really on 316 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:10,479 Speaker 1: it like I used to be. I'm not on social 317 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:11,879 Speaker 1: media like I used to be. And one of the 318 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 1: reasons why is that I just see the ways that 319 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 1: disrespecting black women, fat women, queer black youth will always 320 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:27,719 Speaker 1: be a winning strategy on social media. This is one 321 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:29,879 Speaker 1: of the more exhausting parts of showing up online as 322 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:33,160 Speaker 1: a black woman. Putting us down will always drive engagement 323 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,920 Speaker 1: because platforms are built without intentionally interrogating and unpacking things 324 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:39,920 Speaker 1: like racism and sexism, and even more broadly, if you've 325 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:43,159 Speaker 1: ever felt like you see more more negative, divisive, extreme 326 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 1: more inflammatory content on your feed other than positive, thoughtful content. 327 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 1: You are absolutely right. Researchers at Harvard analyze one tweets 328 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:56,399 Speaker 1: and found that negativity was about more prevalence and positivity, 329 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 1: and that negative tweets engaged more users, and a similar 330 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 1: yales that eat found that social media platforms like Twitter 331 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 1: amplify expressions of moral outrage over time because users learn 332 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:10,120 Speaker 1: the language of outrage gets rewarded with an increased number 333 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:12,480 Speaker 1: of likes and shares. And I see this a lot 334 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 1: on Twitter, where people will tweet inflammatory things specifically because 335 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:17,920 Speaker 1: they know it will be hard for the rest of 336 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 1: us to avoid engaging with it. I see it in 337 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:22,359 Speaker 1: the way that like if you follow some of these 338 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 1: accounts on places like Instagram, where they'll they'll have a 339 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 1: post where it's like a picture of a black woman 340 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 1: or particularly a picture of like a black queer child, right, 341 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 1: and they'll post it knowing full well what they are doing, 342 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 1: knowing full well that that is going to drive engagement. 343 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:43,399 Speaker 1: And it has this this kind of the sheen of 344 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 1: plausible deniability where they're not saying anything, they're simply posting 345 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 1: a picture of a queer black child, and you know, 346 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:54,679 Speaker 1: asking people what they think. And I find that to 347 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:58,679 Speaker 1: be such an indication of the ways that social media 348 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:02,719 Speaker 1: platforms and digital platforms will always be able to count 349 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 1: on disrespecting and denigrating marginalized people for engagement, and in 350 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 1: fact that engagement is incentivized and it's baked into the 351 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 1: experience of using some of these platforms. Yeah, it's an 352 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 1: incredibly toxic cycle. The Internet, largely in social media platforms 353 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 1: in particular, are fueled by outrage and abuse. Abuse happens, 354 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 1: we see it, we experience it, we're traumatized, and then 355 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 1: of course people are outraged, and that is the engagement circle, 356 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:40,680 Speaker 1: you know. So it's abuse after abuse after abuse. You're 357 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:46,360 Speaker 1: trying to scold somebody, express your distaste, express your scorn, 358 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,360 Speaker 1: and you're typing your little fingers away. Um you might 359 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 1: even you know, this is a thing that I'm not 360 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 1: sure we've reconnected with, like your reposting abuse of content 361 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,919 Speaker 1: to say this is abuses. So it just travels for 362 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:04,439 Speaker 1: there in further in the outrage fuels the comments and 363 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:08,359 Speaker 1: the response videos and the posts, and we're all really 364 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:12,400 Speaker 1: and truly in a very um a horrible, I think 365 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 1: psychologically really damaging cycle with how these platforms are are 366 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 1: set up. Oh absolutely. I mean I I used to 367 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 1: when I first got on TikTok, I used to follow 368 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,160 Speaker 1: a lot of creators who their whole thing was and 369 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:30,439 Speaker 1: and no shade of these people. I'm not saying that 370 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:32,400 Speaker 1: like they're bad people, but it just wasn't for me. 371 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:35,879 Speaker 1: Their whole thing would be you know, look at this 372 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 1: video of someone being racist, like but like and you know, 373 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:42,880 Speaker 1: I guess I just and I would, I would engage 374 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 1: with these videos, but they would leave me feeling so 375 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:50,919 Speaker 1: empty and so bad and so sort of distrustful. And 376 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:54,760 Speaker 1: it just reinforced this idea of you know, I can't 377 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 1: trust them when I go outside, I can't trust people outside, 378 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 1: I can't trust my neighbors. Like it really fueled been 379 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:03,200 Speaker 1: kind of scary in me, I guess, and it made 380 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,879 Speaker 1: me realize I want more, Like I want more from platforms. 381 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:09,920 Speaker 1: I want to be offered more than outrage and abuse 382 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:14,879 Speaker 1: and disrespect and detigration. Can't we have better conversations and 383 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 1: better and better experiences online? It seems like maybe we 384 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:23,160 Speaker 1: can't anymore. Oh, I know people hate the phrase safe spaces. 385 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 1: I know that that's become kind of like a boogeyman, 386 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 1: like the word woke has. But I do think that 387 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 1: increasingly people are trying to forge spaces where they're not 388 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:41,159 Speaker 1: going to be inundated with trauma and awfulness and abuse 389 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 1: of content all the time. I think that is one 390 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: of the reasons why platforms like discord have blown up 391 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 1: over the past eighteen months. I know, for me, I 392 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,879 Speaker 1: spend a lot of time on private communities like the 393 00:23:55,920 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 1: Patreon community, which is hard, right because, as I understand, 394 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 1: you're always erecting barriers when you are putting things behind 395 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 1: a paywall. Um. But for my own mental health, for 396 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 1: my own well being as a public person who has 397 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 1: experienced so much abuse, I just have felt better by saying, Okay, 398 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 1: I'm just not going to have this conversation out in 399 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:25,879 Speaker 1: the big world, out on the big Internet. We're going 400 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:27,879 Speaker 1: to keep it on the discord. We're gonna keep it 401 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 1: on the Patreon, where maybe I can't trust all of 402 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 1: the people who are there because I don't know some 403 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:40,440 Speaker 1: bad actors make it in, but there's some filters, and 404 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 1: I feel like that's increasingly what's happening. People are moving 405 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 1: from the open Internet, open platforms, to Facebook groups, to discords, 406 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 1: to patreons to private communities. Yeah, I've definitely noticed that. 407 00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 1: I mean, I still have a Facebook, I bare use it, 408 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:02,400 Speaker 1: and the only reason that I am there at all 409 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 1: is because of private Facebook groups. It's the only thing 410 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,919 Speaker 1: that keeps me there. And it's so interesting how we 411 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:11,399 Speaker 1: have really moved toward kind of like thinking about our 412 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 1: Internet experiences and spaces as more like camp fires, like, oh, 413 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 1: we're gonna curate who comes, We're all going to have 414 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,919 Speaker 1: this shared interest and that's what we're going to gather around, 415 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 1: as opposed to just you know, public forms. Anybody come 416 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:26,920 Speaker 1: on in. And you know, I know that you've talked 417 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 1: quite a bit about this idea of scale and the 418 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:34,440 Speaker 1: way that that trying to grow things to be the biggest, biggest, 419 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 1: biggest thing kind of will always be at odds with 420 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 1: it's like feelings like care and and and intention and 421 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 1: so it seems like one of those things where it's like, 422 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,440 Speaker 1: if you're doing something behind a paywall, yeah, maybe it 423 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,960 Speaker 1: will never be the biggest community with everybody there where 424 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 1: you're making tons of money, and maybe that's okay. Maybe 425 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 1: maybe being able to have a little bit more intentionality 426 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 1: around the communities that you build and have a little 427 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 1: bit more of control over it in that way, Maybe 428 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,880 Speaker 1: that's okay. And maybe not maybe going into building these 429 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 1: spaces with a with a goal that is not making 430 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 1: them as a big or as powerful or as lucrative 431 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,880 Speaker 1: as they can be, maybe that's okay. Yeah, I mean 432 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:24,120 Speaker 1: you mentioned incentives earlier, and really the incentive structures for everybody, 433 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 1: including creators, are so messed up. And so I agree 434 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,439 Speaker 1: with you that there are things that I'm just not 435 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:37,159 Speaker 1: gonna do anymore. I'm not gonna make the video about 436 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 1: look at this horrible thing that just happened, look at 437 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 1: this black woman being abused. Let's be I. I am 438 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 1: not in that space anymore. It's just too harmful to me. 439 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:52,240 Speaker 1: Like I just I can't deal with it anymore. But 440 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:57,359 Speaker 1: I understand that so many creators understand. They see that 441 00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 1: that's where the engagement is, which means that's where the 442 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:05,440 Speaker 1: money is. And it is already so difficult as a creator, 443 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:09,359 Speaker 1: particularly as a black creator, to make a living. I 444 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 1: see what people are doing when they're doing that. I'm 445 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 1: speaking from a place of extreme privilege when I say 446 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 1: I can opt out of doing that stuff now because 447 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:23,399 Speaker 1: I've built up such a strong supportive community of people 448 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,439 Speaker 1: who are saying, Kim, I value your voice. So I 449 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:28,879 Speaker 1: want to be in the community where we can talk 450 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 1: more intimately about things that Sometimes they are traumatic, sometimes 451 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 1: they are um hard to deal with. Sometimes we are 452 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 1: going deep on misogyn noir and all sorts of other oppressions. 453 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 1: But there's fundamentally an ethic of care in all of 454 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 1: those conversations. I am so conscientious about how I facilitate 455 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,959 Speaker 1: those discussions, how I participate in them, who was brought 456 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 1: into them. And that's really not possible when your only 457 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 1: your only goal is to get bigger, When your only 458 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:08,200 Speaker 1: goal is to get more views, more followers, more eyeballs. 459 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 1: Everybody is coming to the conversation and a lot of 460 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:17,440 Speaker 1: those people are coming to it with malice. And I 461 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,359 Speaker 1: feel so much empathy for the people who are stuck 462 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 1: in that cycle because the Internet is just not created 463 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:30,359 Speaker 1: for people to thrive and take care of their mental health. 464 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 1: That is so true, And I should just say the 465 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 1: research is very clear that most social media platforms really 466 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 1: do amplify it incentivize uh, you know, extremist content, inflammatory content, 467 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 1: outrageous content that is negative over content that is thoughtful, 468 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 1: that is nuanced, and so I think what you just 469 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:52,480 Speaker 1: described it, it's it's like a it's like a cycle 470 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 1: where platforms are have have incentivized that kind of content 471 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 1: and they're making money off of it, and it just 472 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 1: keeps us all, you know, like you said, stuck in 473 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 1: this cycle that is not prioritizing care more after a 474 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 1: quick break, So, if you've ever wondered I wonder what 475 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 1: Bridget is up to when she's not making the podcast that, 476 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 1: I have great news for you. We just launched our 477 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 1: brand new newsletter where I'm gonna be writing about things 478 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 1: I'm paying attention to online, interesting stories that didn't make 479 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,080 Speaker 1: it to the podcast, and a whole lot more. I 480 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 1: promise you will never spam you. You can subscribe to 481 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 1: our newsletter at Tanodi dot com slash newsletter and it's 482 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 1: gonna be like a useful newsletter. I promise you can 483 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 1: also support the show by checking out our merch store 484 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 1: at tangoti dot com slash store. Let's get right back 485 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 1: into it. How do you think we get to a 486 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 1: place where platforms and online spaces are not built on 487 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 1: things like disrespect or you know, outrageousness or being inflammatory 488 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,960 Speaker 1: or use but can actually feel like care, you know, 489 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,640 Speaker 1: like the space that you've built, or should we just 490 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 1: be focused on, you know, building our own ship. As 491 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:12,480 Speaker 1: I know that you are a big advocate for man. 492 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 1: People ask me this all the time. I think that 493 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:23,479 Speaker 1: one good place to start this is a beginning and 494 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 1: not the end is I think that platforms need to 495 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 1: be very serious about paying creators better, giving out money, 496 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:39,240 Speaker 1: giving out grants, paying creators. I mean, even when they 497 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 1: do start to offer these incentives, like Instagram now has 498 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 1: started offering incentives for reels and content and all of that, 499 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 1: it's so little money or it's so there's no rhyme 500 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:54,240 Speaker 1: or reason to how you get paid and how much 501 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 1: you get paid. If there was transparency around that, I 502 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 1: think that that would be really, really helpful. But honestly, 503 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 1: I don't think that we're ever going to get equity 504 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,440 Speaker 1: or anything that even looks like justice from any of 505 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 1: the platforms that we have right now. I think that 506 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 1: the sea word is coming capitalism and the goals and 507 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 1: desires of these platforms are irreconcilable with the goal and 508 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 1: the need for content creators, specifically marginalized content creators, to 509 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 1: take care of themselves, to be able to take breaks 510 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 1: to not have to exploit every single abuse in offense. 511 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:45,400 Speaker 1: I just don't see I just don't see the possibility 512 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 1: for that at this time. I think it's like tear 513 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:54,640 Speaker 1: it all down and try again. I mean, that's so 514 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 1: often the answer when we ask these big questions recognizing 515 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 1: that it's systemic, it's institutional, right, It's like we need 516 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,239 Speaker 1: completely new paradigms and new systems or something that. You know, 517 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,480 Speaker 1: I definitely advocate for people, particularly marginalized creators, but really 518 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 1: anybody to take breaks when they need it from the 519 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,080 Speaker 1: Internet all of that. But you can't take breaks or 520 00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:16,880 Speaker 1: like self care your way out of something that is structural. 521 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 1: And so I think sometimes it's an unsatisfying answer that like, oh, yeah, 522 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 1: we need to brun it all down to start again. 523 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 1: But that's the answer. Yeah. I mean, I'm not trying 524 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:33,240 Speaker 1: to bullshit people, right, Like I understand that Twitter is 525 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:38,320 Speaker 1: always going to be about trying to optimize profits for shareholders. 526 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 1: I understand that Meta is always going to be about 527 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 1: trying to get the most advertising dollars, trying to get 528 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:49,920 Speaker 1: the most screen time, right, the most daily active users. 529 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:53,600 Speaker 1: That's not going to change. So we just gotta be 530 00:32:53,640 --> 00:33:00,480 Speaker 1: honest about what we're working with Here, got a story 531 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 1: about an interesting thing in tech, or just want to 532 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:04,520 Speaker 1: say hi? You can reach us at Hello at tang 533 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,040 Speaker 1: godi dot com. You can also find transcripts for today's 534 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,480 Speaker 1: episode at tangdi dot com. There Are No Girls on 535 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 1: the Internet was created by me Bridget Tod. It's a 536 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:15,080 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio and Unboss creative Jonathan Strickland 537 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:17,800 Speaker 1: as our executive producer. Terry Harrison is our producer and 538 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 1: sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, 539 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 1: Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate 540 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 1: and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from 541 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 1: I heeart Radio, check out the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, 542 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.