WEBVTT - Markets, Eco Data, Crypto, and Tech (Podcast) 0:00:00.800 --> 0:00:04.040 Welcome to the Bloomberg Markets Podcast. I'm Paul Sweeney, alongside 0:00:04.040 --> 0:00:06.920 my co host Matt Miller. Every business day, we bring 0:00:06.960 --> 0:00:11.520 you interviews from CEOs, market pros, and Bloomberg experts, along 0:00:11.520 --> 0:00:15.520 with essential market moving news. Find the Bloomberg Markets Podcast 0:00:15.600 --> 0:00:18.439 on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts, and 0:00:18.480 --> 0:00:22.800 at Bloomberg dot com slash podcast. Katie Greifeld, you look 0:00:22.800 --> 0:00:26.200 a little bit shell shocked. You're a cross asset reporter, 0:00:26.280 --> 0:00:28.560 and I know what asset you're focused on right now? 0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:32.319 Which one crypto? Oh my god, I am living. Am 0:00:32.360 --> 0:00:36.880 I shell shocked to you? She's like glowing. It's it's 0:00:36.920 --> 0:00:38.920 a it's a it's a look. I will say that 0:00:38.960 --> 0:00:42.320 my heart is pounding. Uh. This is pretty enormous news, 0:00:42.360 --> 0:00:46.560 profound implications for the crypto industry and what it looks 0:00:46.600 --> 0:00:49.320 like going forward. It should be right, there should be 0:00:49.360 --> 0:00:53.800 profound implications for the asset class. But I don't really 0:00:53.840 --> 0:00:57.120 see bitcoin moving that much. It is amazing that we're 0:00:57.120 --> 0:01:01.800 looking at bitcoin almost around seventeen thousand and dollars a coin. 0:01:02.000 --> 0:01:05.039 I don't have a good answer for you, but I 0:01:05.120 --> 0:01:08.039 see your point. Did I tell you my Lehman Brothers analogy. 0:01:08.319 --> 0:01:10.680 I want to hear it again. So first of all, 0:01:11.040 --> 0:01:13.000 I don't know you're probably the only person in the building. 0:01:13.000 --> 0:01:16.680 I haven't told this, but back in September eight, I 0:01:16.720 --> 0:01:18.680 got off a plane from Germany and I turned on 0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:22.680 my BlackBerry. Everybody on the plane turned on his or 0:01:22.720 --> 0:01:26.440 her blackberries, and we all were shocked that Lehman Brothers 0:01:26.440 --> 0:01:29.000 had gone under. Now, the same thing happened to me 0:01:29.080 --> 0:01:32.200 on Sunday or sorry, on Tuesday. Tuesday night, I got 0:01:32.240 --> 0:01:34.600 in from I was in Indonesia for a few weeks. 0:01:35.040 --> 0:01:37.840 I turned on my iPhone this time because you know, 0:01:38.760 --> 0:01:41.600 my BlackBerry doesn't work anymore, and I find out that 0:01:41.720 --> 0:01:44.759 f t X is going down. Shocked again. But the 0:01:44.800 --> 0:01:48.400 thing is just like back when Lehman Brothers failed, there 0:01:48.520 --> 0:01:51.760 wasn't a tremendous drop in the value of the dollar. 0:01:52.440 --> 0:01:55.760 Now f t X is failing, there's not a tremendous 0:01:55.800 --> 0:01:57.760 drop in the value of bitcoin. You see, we have 0:01:57.840 --> 0:02:01.520 to separate. Maybe Mattie's stop getting off plane. Yeah exactly. 0:02:01.840 --> 0:02:04.440 I mean, you even look at the likes of Salona, 0:02:04.480 --> 0:02:07.160 which is really the token to watch here. When you 0:02:07.160 --> 0:02:09.720 think about the Salona blockchain and what a big back 0:02:09.800 --> 0:02:12.560 or SPF and why f T that token to watch 0:02:12.720 --> 0:02:15.239 because f T T I mean, if you have brought 0:02:15.280 --> 0:02:19.200 them down, like the magnitude of the number of people 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:23.160 invested Salana, Definitely there's much more wealth at stake in 0:02:23.200 --> 0:02:26.120 Salana than there is an FTT at this point. But anyway, 0:02:26.200 --> 0:02:28.320 my point being that if you look at uh Salana, 0:02:28.800 --> 0:02:32.320 it's I mean, it's down significantly over nine percent, but 0:02:32.400 --> 0:02:36.040 it was down much more about half an hour ago, 0:02:36.240 --> 0:02:39.160 so we'll see. I mean, a lot of bad news 0:02:39.240 --> 0:02:41.200 is already priced in. I would agree with you that 0:02:41.320 --> 0:02:43.880 seventeen thousand dollars for bitcoin in the wake of this 0:02:43.919 --> 0:02:46.240 news does seem a little bit on intuitive, just on 0:02:46.280 --> 0:02:49.679 a numbers basis. But again, you think about the tremendous 0:02:49.760 --> 0:02:51.800 draw down already in the space, there's a lot of 0:02:51.800 --> 0:02:54.840 bad news in there. Let's bring in our other roundtable 0:02:54.840 --> 0:02:58.079 guest here, Cameron Christ, also known as Macroman. He writes 0:02:58.120 --> 0:03:00.480 a Macroman column for for Bloomberg as well as the 0:03:00.480 --> 0:03:03.519 macro strategists. Cam put this into the perspective of someone 0:03:03.560 --> 0:03:08.040 who perhaps isn't a crypto fanatic. How much of your 0:03:08.040 --> 0:03:12.280 trad fight take Oh my god? Well, actually, though, what 0:03:12.440 --> 0:03:16.000 is your traditional finance take what is the contagion effect 0:03:16.080 --> 0:03:20.000 here into the broader markets. I think it's probably relatively limited. 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:24.720 I mean, listen, crypto gets a lot of attention and 0:03:25.240 --> 0:03:29.480 it's full of a lot of loud mouth, but uh listen, 0:03:29.480 --> 0:03:32.440 at its peak, the market cap of crypto is what 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:36.040 about three trillion UM and now it's down to whatever 0:03:36.200 --> 0:03:38.760 eight million or nine hundred million or whatever it is, 0:03:39.240 --> 0:03:43.840 uh billion. Excuse me, um uh you can explain. I 0:03:43.840 --> 0:03:47.200 mean that basically matches the combined market cap loss of 0:03:47.280 --> 0:03:51.360 like Amazon, Meta and Tesla over the over the same period, 0:03:52.120 --> 0:03:54.840 so just three companies have lost as much money for 0:03:54.880 --> 0:03:57.680 their investors. There's all of this crypto stuff. Now you 0:03:57.680 --> 0:04:02.720 could argue that crypto is more broadly uh owned by 0:04:02.920 --> 0:04:06.560 retail who have levered positions, and yeah, that's right. So 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:10.120 obviously for an individual it might matter more. But on 0:04:10.160 --> 0:04:14.520 a on a on an aggregate basis, um the the 0:04:14.560 --> 0:04:18.120 only real threat I think it's some sort of transmission 0:04:19.000 --> 0:04:26.400 from crypto to to the more traditional um uh financial system. 0:04:26.680 --> 0:04:28.400 And that would be a case if a big bank, 0:04:28.480 --> 0:04:33.760 for example, had uh massive exposure to fpx uh and 0:04:34.000 --> 0:04:35.600 it was suddenly looking at a five or a ten 0:04:35.640 --> 0:04:40.719 billion dollar hole. Um, I don't think that's the case. So, um, 0:04:40.800 --> 0:04:43.520 you know, I'm sorry to be skeptical, and I don't 0:04:43.520 --> 0:04:46.240 mean to dance on on the financial grades of people 0:04:46.279 --> 0:04:49.159 who have been suffering through this. But you know, when 0:04:49.160 --> 0:04:52.360 you play stupid games, you win stupid prizes. And if 0:04:52.360 --> 0:04:54.560 you buy you know, if you buy stuff on a 0:04:54.640 --> 0:04:58.160 joke because someone tweets out a rocketship emoji, if that's 0:04:58.200 --> 0:05:00.719 your investment case, this is kind of natural. Well, I 0:05:00.720 --> 0:05:03.000 mean you have We should all be skeptical, right, that's 0:05:03.000 --> 0:05:06.160 our job as journalists, but we also have to differentiate. 0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:10.360 There's a difference between bitcoin and doge coin, right yeah, yeah, sure, 0:05:10.440 --> 0:05:12.760 But I mean what's the you know, I'm I'm all 0:05:12.880 --> 0:05:15.560 enough to remember five years ago people are talking about bitcoin. 0:05:16.600 --> 0:05:18.800 You know, the the US case for bitcoin was based 0:05:18.839 --> 0:05:22.000 on blockchain applications, Right, yeah, I think we can all 0:05:22.040 --> 0:05:25.040 agree that that that horace has bolted. No one can 0:05:25.080 --> 0:05:29.960 seriously claim that the bitcoin blockchain is the reason that 0:05:30.040 --> 0:05:34.640 people buy bitcoin. Well, you would back against you and 0:05:34.680 --> 0:05:36.120 I are the only ones who are old enough to 0:05:36.120 --> 0:05:39.080 remember five years ago. Well no, but if you're going 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:43.240 to use the blockchain, bitcoin is incredibly uh inefficient. You're right, 0:05:43.480 --> 0:05:47.160 so people would rather use the blockchain of ethereum, for example, 0:05:47.240 --> 0:05:51.560 to build unless I mean I've asked people this question 0:05:51.600 --> 0:05:54.120 all the time. Why doesn't bitcoin, for example, just go 0:05:54.200 --> 0:05:56.359 to proof of stake if you're so worried about the 0:05:56.480 --> 0:05:59.720 energy consumption. It's because the blockchain of bitcoin, the o G, 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:04.520 is supposed to be more secure. And I mean no, no, no, 0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:07.240 proof proof of work is far more secure than proof 0:06:07.240 --> 0:06:09.720 of sake. The reason is they want to restrict supply 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:12.400 because the people who already own it have a vested 0:06:12.440 --> 0:06:14.760 interest in seeing the price goes up, go up. I mean, 0:06:15.200 --> 0:06:17.200 I mean, the most of this stuff, the primary use 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:20.720 case is to enrich people who are early adopters end 0:06:20.760 --> 0:06:25.640 of uh. And that is not a particularly productive use 0:06:25.839 --> 0:06:31.440 of financial capital or intellectual capital, frankly, um. And you 0:06:31.480 --> 0:06:33.840 can see the kind of caliber that the people that 0:06:33.839 --> 0:06:37.400 it's attracted. I mean, I don't know if you've seen this, 0:06:38.400 --> 0:06:40.880 and I mean, is this a comment on Michael nova 0:06:40.920 --> 0:06:44.159 Grant specifically? Who are you talking about? I'm talking about 0:06:44.400 --> 0:06:46.719 you know, this bankman, freed guy. Have you seen this 0:06:46.839 --> 0:06:50.000 video clip of this this woman who is the CEO 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:55.320 of Alameda basically a couple, couple of people basically saying, 0:06:55.440 --> 0:06:58.800 stop losses on an effective risk management tool. Oh really, 0:06:59.080 --> 0:07:00.800 I mean this is from on one who had an 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:02.960 experience of what a year and a half is a 0:07:03.040 --> 0:07:06.880 junior and another hedge fund before she assumed this role 0:07:06.920 --> 0:07:10.480 of significant responsibility, and she doesn't understand the basic principles 0:07:10.480 --> 0:07:14.880 of risk management. I mean, it's a it's a joke, uh, 0:07:14.880 --> 0:07:19.320 and it it in my opinion, it's the natural outcome 0:07:19.400 --> 0:07:22.440 of too much free money, too much liquidity that's been 0:07:22.480 --> 0:07:25.480 pumped into the global financial system for too long, and 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:32.880 it's flown to it's flowed to these frankly ludicrous uh endeavors. 0:07:32.920 --> 0:07:35.200 I mean, you've no doubt seen this, this whole thing 0:07:35.240 --> 0:07:40.040 about these people at Sequoia being blown away by by 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:42.560 by old Sam while he's playing a video game. I mean, 0:07:42.760 --> 0:07:45.840 give me a break. I think it is an in 0:07:46.080 --> 0:07:49.040 fun thought exercise. I think, would this all be happening 0:07:49.560 --> 0:07:52.600 if the FED weren't hiking our faces off right now? 0:07:52.720 --> 0:07:55.120 I mean, if the line was going up, I think 0:07:55.200 --> 0:07:58.840 that the business of f TX perhaps we wouldn't be 0:07:58.840 --> 0:08:01.440 having But you're saying this happened because the FED was 0:08:01.520 --> 0:08:04.680 cutting had cut too, so low, and because we were 0:08:04.720 --> 0:08:07.520 spending trillions and trillions of dollars in fiscal's just sort 0:08:07.520 --> 0:08:10.760 of passing it out with a helicopter. Yeah, and and 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:14.560 and you know, the the genius quote unquote geniuses who 0:08:14.560 --> 0:08:17.120 have disrupted things. I mean, I thought this was supposed 0:08:17.120 --> 0:08:20.600 to be decentralized finance, and yet we, funny enough, end 0:08:20.720 --> 0:08:24.400 up with a huge concentration of risk and wealth in 0:08:24.440 --> 0:08:27.000 the hands of a few people and a few institutions 0:08:27.520 --> 0:08:30.640 who were committing the same mistakes that quote unquote Track 0:08:30.720 --> 0:08:33.880 five have been making over three or four hundred years, 0:08:33.960 --> 0:08:37.280 and have not entirely learned their lesson, but learned their 0:08:37.360 --> 0:08:40.080 lesson to some extent, or at least had regulation to 0:08:40.160 --> 0:08:44.680 prevent the most egregious of these, uh of these, you know, 0:08:44.760 --> 0:08:48.400 these misdeeds, I mean, taking client money and spending it 0:08:48.440 --> 0:08:50.760 on something else. It's just you can't do it. And 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:54.400 I think these that's under investigation right now. Just to 0:08:54.400 --> 0:08:59.320 be clear, we're not exactly that allegation. But the I mean, 0:08:59.360 --> 0:09:02.680 the the in my mind, the appropriate analog is not Lehman, 0:09:03.040 --> 0:09:06.559 because none of this crypto stuff is systemically important enough, 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:09.559 as I said, to be to be to be Lehman. 0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:11.599 But it it's more like I'm f Global, you know 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:14.640 where John Corzine took took client money and bought two 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:19.520 year BTPs uh which went horribly wrong and MS global 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:21.560 blew up. Yeah. I mean, I don't think the Lehman 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:26.000 analogy is not that not that this is a Lehman 0:09:26.040 --> 0:09:29.320 Brothers moment for the market at large, but just for 0:09:29.360 --> 0:09:33.360 the crypto industry. Um. The concern is this has shaken 0:09:33.760 --> 0:09:37.240 confidence so much in what you clearly view as a 0:09:37.240 --> 0:09:40.080 con game. Um, and now they're going to have to 0:09:40.120 --> 0:09:43.360 do something about it to try and get well. Then 0:09:43.400 --> 0:09:46.600 the irony is that the whole, the whole philosophy behind 0:09:46.679 --> 0:09:50.280 crypto is trust list finance, right, and yet how much 0:09:50.320 --> 0:09:54.880 trust was implicitly placed in these centralized exchanges which are 0:09:54.880 --> 0:09:58.080 actually half exchange and half broker. I mean, I I 0:09:58.240 --> 0:09:59.880 you know, if if the whole point is that you 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:03.800 get get out of traditional finance, and yet you you 0:10:04.240 --> 0:10:08.079 to introduce counterparty risk to these centralized exchanges, it's kind 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:14.160 of counter to the underlying ethos, isn't it. It's a 0:10:14.160 --> 0:10:17.240 good question, I mean, to your point that it's supposed 0:10:17.280 --> 0:10:21.079 to be trust less when you introduce centralization that trustlessness 0:10:21.160 --> 0:10:23.640 goes away. It's not the same as trusting a piece 0:10:23.679 --> 0:10:27.800 of code, trusting a smart contract to execute. You actually 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:29.800 have to trust other humans. Again, I think you also 0:10:29.840 --> 0:10:36.080 have to differentiate between the asset itself and the businesses 0:10:36.160 --> 0:10:38.600 that now have been built around it. Um. Yeah, But 0:10:38.679 --> 0:10:42.240 I would say this, to deny the likelihood that you're 0:10:42.240 --> 0:10:47.360 going to get centralization or a concentration of of ownership 0:10:47.400 --> 0:10:51.679 and wealth in some large institutions is to deny human nature. 0:10:52.040 --> 0:10:53.480 And I mean it reminds me a bit of the 0:10:53.559 --> 0:10:57.000 m m T. People would say, well, uh, if we 0:10:57.040 --> 0:10:59.400 get inflation because of m m T, WHI all the 0:10:59.400 --> 0:11:02.480 government has to do is tighten fiscal policy radically and 0:11:02.520 --> 0:11:04.960 now I'll get rid of the inflation. Okay, fine, but 0:11:05.040 --> 0:11:09.680 in what real world is uh? Is a government going 0:11:09.720 --> 0:11:14.240 to tighten fiscal policy when when inflation becomes problematic and 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:17.160 and starts to hit growth. I mean maybe the UK 0:11:17.360 --> 0:11:21.000 is going to do it, uh, ironically enough after the 0:11:21.040 --> 0:11:23.679 loose trust budget blew up. But I mean you really 0:11:23.760 --> 0:11:27.440 think that the US government is going to engage in 0:11:27.480 --> 0:11:30.640 an explicit and massive fiscal tightening for the sole purpose 0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:34.280 of controlling inflation. Of course, it's politically. I mean, it's 0:11:34.280 --> 0:11:36.840 just that's not the way human nature works. Are you 0:11:36.880 --> 0:11:39.920 surprised though that? Are you surprised in that case that 0:11:40.480 --> 0:11:44.240 even after this, um, we've you know, the tide has 0:11:44.280 --> 0:11:47.480 gone out and we've seen the SPF is not wearing 0:11:47.480 --> 0:11:53.560 a bathing suit. Nonetheless, one bitcoin is one one bitcoin 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:58.520 is still worth seventeen thousand dollars um. It's a lot 0:11:58.559 --> 0:12:00.679 of money. I mean, it's still it a lot more 0:12:00.720 --> 0:12:04.800 than it even costs to mind a bitcoin. Uh. Yeah, 0:12:05.120 --> 0:12:11.280 although I gather that calculus has narrowed quite quite substantially. Sure, 0:12:11.400 --> 0:12:13.800 but it's well, just it's a lot of money for 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:18.000 a line of code that the only thing really that 0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:21.480 gives it value is the belief of the group that 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:24.880 it has value even beyond something like gold, and certainly 0:12:24.880 --> 0:12:29.400 far beyond something like the dollar. Yeah. I mean listen, if, if, if, 0:12:29.920 --> 0:12:33.520 even after all this, uh, there is a significant cohort 0:12:33.559 --> 0:12:37.920 of people that collectively agree that the Emperor's new code 0:12:38.280 --> 0:12:43.120 is actually still pretty stunning, then it is pretty stunning 0:12:44.520 --> 0:12:48.440 unless you know, a critical mass of people say, actually, 0:12:48.640 --> 0:12:51.640 he's not wearing it at all. He's got thank you, 0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:54.720 he's he's wearing you know, he doesn't have the bathing 0:12:54.760 --> 0:12:59.280 suit on um to to mix metaphors. UM, but it 0:12:59.400 --> 0:13:03.800 listens the entire crypto And again I think all comes razor. 0:13:04.240 --> 0:13:07.439 You know, why do you see crypto doing what it's 0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:10.040 doing today? Why do you see people saying what they're saying. 0:13:10.240 --> 0:13:13.880 It's because they benefit UM, and there's invested interest in 0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:17.800 keeping the ball in the air UH as as high 0:13:17.840 --> 0:13:21.679 as possible. I mean, like a micro strategy for example. 0:13:21.679 --> 0:13:24.920 Obviously they've pivoted their entire company to being essentially a 0:13:24.920 --> 0:13:29.040 bitcoin etf And I mean I've looked at some of 0:13:29.040 --> 0:13:32.760 this Sailor guys tweets. It's I mean the guy, the 0:13:32.760 --> 0:13:38.120 guy spends all day tweeting absolute inanities about about about 0:13:38.160 --> 0:13:41.160 crypto that sound deep but are actually complete and pain 0:13:41.240 --> 0:13:45.679 and nonsense. UM. But hey, he's trying to drum up 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:49.000 an ongoing narrative that this is where you want to 0:13:49.000 --> 0:13:50.920 be well and a lot of Wall Street has joined 0:13:50.920 --> 0:13:54.400 in on that, right, I mean otherwise, absolutely absolutely UM. 0:13:54.440 --> 0:13:58.160 But obviously again, anyone what's a passing history of traditional 0:13:58.200 --> 0:14:01.240 finance can tell you that just because Walls Freed embraces 0:14:01.320 --> 0:14:05.360 a certain investment trend doesn't mean that it's useful or 0:14:05.760 --> 0:14:10.800 profitable in the long run. Funny enough, on my YouTube algorithm, 0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:13.000 I seem to be getting a lot of clips of 0:14:13.640 --> 0:14:16.800 the big short these days, which, uh, I don't know 0:14:16.840 --> 0:14:20.000 it is probably says something about karma. I guess in 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:22.600 the context of what's going on in the in the cryptospec. 0:14:22.680 --> 0:14:25.800 So as an investor, then, I mean, with this kind 0:14:25.800 --> 0:14:29.320 of skepticism, do you just stay completely out or do 0:14:29.360 --> 0:14:33.200 you see a way that an investor could get involved 0:14:33.200 --> 0:14:37.160 in this still for some kind of healthy return. Well, 0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:40.400 I mean, obviously I'm not the right person to ask 0:14:40.560 --> 0:14:43.960 which of these little digital tulips is the right one 0:14:44.040 --> 0:14:46.680 to uh, is the right one to to to purchase? 0:14:46.760 --> 0:14:48.880 Or how you should trade that? UM, what I will 0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:52.760 say is is that there's one sort of universal truth, 0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:55.280 which is the people that get rich in a gold mine, 0:14:55.800 --> 0:14:57.760 in a gold rush typically the people that sell the 0:14:57.760 --> 0:15:00.680 picks and jubbles. Right. Well, I I want to go 0:15:00.720 --> 0:15:04.000 back to the um, to the blockchain, because that seems 0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:06.680 to be the beginning, what was the beginning of what 0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:10.680 drew Wall Street into the crypto area, And it still 0:15:10.720 --> 0:15:13.200 makes sense that you could build a lot of useful 0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:17.640 products on the blockchain. You could keep deeds of ownership 0:15:17.720 --> 0:15:22.200 on it or UM you know, driver's licenses, etcetera. I've 0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:24.640 never said why that means you would want to bid 0:15:24.720 --> 0:15:27.320 up the token though. What do you think about building 0:15:27.720 --> 0:15:33.240 businesses or products applications on the blockchain? Well, I mean, listen, 0:15:33.320 --> 0:15:38.440 I I think, again, with with being sort of a 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:42.240 moderately informed lay person, I would suggest to you that 0:15:42.720 --> 0:15:45.920 the vast majority of use cases for the blockchain itself 0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:51.280 are simply replicating databases. Uh and uh you can you 0:15:51.320 --> 0:15:55.880 can achieve just as much with a standard SQL database 0:15:55.960 --> 0:15:57.720 or whatever as you can with the blockchain. I mean, 0:15:57.800 --> 0:15:59.960 is it you really need to have a driver's life 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:02.200 is on the blockchain rather than a standard database. I mean, 0:16:02.240 --> 0:16:05.720 what's the marginal what's the marginal utility of that? I 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:08.080 was just suggesting that, No, no, no, but you know, 0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:11.960 we're onions or or what you know whatever. I think 0:16:12.000 --> 0:16:16.960 there's a pretty limited, uh marginal utility for putting them 0:16:16.960 --> 0:16:21.080 in the blockchain rather than current UM database storage. Uh. 0:16:21.280 --> 0:16:23.320 You know, there are exceptions, and I will I will, 0:16:23.400 --> 0:16:26.280 I will concede that. But again, if you're going to 0:16:26.360 --> 0:16:29.240 use it for the express purpose of the blockchain, surely 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:32.080 the most efficiently run blockchain is the one you want 0:16:32.120 --> 0:16:34.440 to use, not the one that just has the little 0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:36.920 the little widget that goes up the highest and price. 0:16:37.160 --> 0:16:41.560 But obviously Wallace read makes money from the widget going 0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:44.520 up in price rather than the underlying blockchain technology. So 0:16:44.600 --> 0:16:48.240 naturally that's where grabbing, that's where attention is focused. I 0:16:48.560 --> 0:16:50.600 jump in here because this is something I think about 0:16:50.680 --> 0:16:54.240 all the time. To Camp's point that it's just a database, 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:57.560 sometimes I think about what the ambition of crypto is this, 0:16:57.680 --> 0:16:59.560 This is something I thought about all the time while 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:03.320 reading at Levine's crypto piece, which came out two weeks ago. 0:17:03.920 --> 0:17:08.199 It just feels like if you're trying to recreate a 0:17:08.200 --> 0:17:12.320 parallel financial system that is more efficient, there is more secure. 0:17:13.040 --> 0:17:15.560 Uh that is, to get back to what we're talking 0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:20.000 about trust lists, is can that be enough? Why shouldn't 0:17:20.040 --> 0:17:22.520 that be enough if we make the financial system a 0:17:22.600 --> 0:17:25.360 little bit more efficient? I think it's when you get 0:17:25.400 --> 0:17:29.520 into the extreme speculation that we've seen in the crypto space, 0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:32.480 when you think about, you know, creating a new world 0:17:32.520 --> 0:17:35.720 reserve currency that it just feels like we've sort of 0:17:36.240 --> 0:17:42.840 lost but could be actually a really cool use case. Yeah, 0:17:42.920 --> 0:17:46.359 But but again I would say that is sort of 0:17:46.400 --> 0:17:49.920 an inevitable product of human nature. Right. If you include 0:17:50.160 --> 0:17:55.480 a a financial instrument that that floats in price, people 0:17:55.520 --> 0:17:58.320 are going to speculate on it. And I mean a 0:17:58.359 --> 0:18:03.240 lot of my old friends from foreign exchange UH over 0:18:03.280 --> 0:18:07.720 the last decade have pivoted to crypto because frankly, you 0:18:07.760 --> 0:18:11.479 wanna this year is a slightly different, but you know 0:18:11.560 --> 0:18:13.840 for years, you know, do you want to trade the 0:18:13.840 --> 0:18:16.560 euro which trades on a sixth ball and maybe moves 0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:19.000 thirty pips today, or do you want to trade bitcoin 0:18:19.080 --> 0:18:20.680 that moves ten percent a day? I mean, where do 0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:22.480 you think you're going to make more money? Where the 0:18:22.480 --> 0:18:25.960 spreads wider um, where the fees bigger? Where is there 0:18:26.000 --> 0:18:28.800 more juice the thing that moves a lot and is 0:18:28.920 --> 0:18:32.560 much less efficient. So naturally that's what That's where Wall 0:18:32.600 --> 0:18:36.640 Street is focused its attention on part of the whole 0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:40.840 crypto sphere, the bit with the biggest, fattest, juiciest margins. 0:18:41.680 --> 0:18:44.600 And I mean it is a fascinating market structure experiment. 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:46.520 Who knows where it goes from here? But I was 0:18:46.560 --> 0:18:50.679 actually at crypto Twitter drinks last night in a wine cellar. 0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:53.080 There were a lot of sad people in that room, 0:18:53.160 --> 0:18:55.560 but a lot of them can because of those two products. 0:18:55.760 --> 0:19:00.479 I mean, you've already heard about the skepticism that Cameron 0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:03.760 has for crypto, and I can unload on Twitter. I 0:19:03.800 --> 0:19:05.960 can't believe you're still participating in that. By the way, 0:19:06.000 --> 0:19:09.440 do you feel like it's in a way it's immoral? 0:19:10.040 --> 0:19:14.280 Do I feel that Twitter, the social media platform is immoral? Yes? No, 0:19:15.080 --> 0:19:18.879 I mean most social media platforms are responsible only for 0:19:18.960 --> 0:19:22.159 negativity in this world. Feels like a deep seated issue. 0:19:22.240 --> 0:19:23.880 But I would say that a lot of the people 0:19:23.920 --> 0:19:26.240 in that room last night came from high frequency traders. 0:19:26.240 --> 0:19:30.800 They came from Wall Street Wall Street traditional finance roles 0:19:30.840 --> 0:19:33.840 simply because I mean, like Camp said, there's a lot 0:19:33.880 --> 0:19:35.679 of juicy spreads there. There's a lot of money to 0:19:35.720 --> 0:19:38.679 be made. But also it's interesting to a lot of 0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:41.439 these people to be part of building an asset class 0:19:41.840 --> 0:19:45.280 in real time. I mean, how often I wasn't around 0:19:45.320 --> 0:19:48.720 when junk bond trading became a thing. Where it goes 0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:52.639 from here is an open question, obviously. I want to 0:19:52.760 --> 0:19:56.240 Camp Cameron. I want to you to apply your healthy 0:19:56.280 --> 0:20:00.200 skepticism to social media. What do you think about social media? 0:20:00.440 --> 0:20:03.000 Just for a second, before I get to cp I 0:20:03.160 --> 0:20:05.480 and the markets. Oh, I mean, and I think it's 0:20:05.480 --> 0:20:12.360 the cancer on society by and large. Um, I think it. Uh. 0:20:12.520 --> 0:20:18.680 It exposes and amplifies the worst of human nature unfortunately. UM. 0:20:18.720 --> 0:20:25.200 And it's it's it's it enforces what I termed sort 0:20:25.240 --> 0:20:29.480 of the the Gresham's law of discourse. Gresham's law of 0:20:29.560 --> 0:20:33.880 being a sort of a seventeenth century Montary theory back 0:20:33.880 --> 0:20:36.680 when money was actual coins, that bad money drives out 0:20:36.680 --> 0:20:39.240 good in the sense, if you've got a clip coin 0:20:39.680 --> 0:20:42.480 or a real full silver coin, you're gonna spend the 0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:45.639 clip coin and keep the silver coin, right. Uh. Social 0:20:45.680 --> 0:20:51.720 media essentially drives out reasonable opinion, and it encourages the 0:20:51.840 --> 0:20:58.639 use of outrage, UH, conflict, entrepreneurship, UM, propaganda, this this 0:20:58.760 --> 0:21:02.639 sort of stuff which I think is not beneficial to 0:21:03.560 --> 0:21:09.200 a well functioning UH society. I can't disagree outrage gets rewarded. 0:21:09.600 --> 0:21:12.840 I can't disagree it outrages me. I want to ask 0:21:12.880 --> 0:21:16.040 you about UM C p I and the incredible run 0:21:16.080 --> 0:21:18.840 in markets. Yesterday, Valerie Title, a producer of ours out 0:21:18.880 --> 0:21:21.200 of London, pointed out that we haven't seen a move 0:21:21.320 --> 0:21:24.280 that big since the US government dumped two trillion dollars 0:21:24.280 --> 0:21:27.720 of stimulus into the system. Is that Does that make 0:21:27.720 --> 0:21:29.800 sense to you that CPI coming in at seven point 0:21:29.880 --> 0:21:32.160 seven percent instead of seven point nine percent is enough 0:21:32.200 --> 0:21:33.960 to drive a five and a half percent gain on 0:21:33.960 --> 0:21:38.480 the SMPN one day. Um well no, obviously, um we 0:21:38.720 --> 0:21:44.280 had a similar downside miss on CPI in reported in 0:21:44.320 --> 0:21:46.560 August and obviously we didn't see anything like that kind 0:21:46.600 --> 0:21:52.680 of that kind of move. Let's bring in Jay Hatfield 0:21:52.760 --> 0:21:57.639 right now, CEO and founder over an Infrastructure Capital Advisers. 0:21:57.960 --> 0:22:00.720 Um G. Great to have you in the studio after 0:22:01.440 --> 0:22:08.280 an unbelievable rally in stocks yesterday, um all driven by 0:22:08.480 --> 0:22:12.600 a cp I print that was just barely under expectations. 0:22:12.840 --> 0:22:15.679 What do you think about it? Thanks for having me 0:22:15.720 --> 0:22:21.440 on that. We actually have been a pretty optimistic about 0:22:22.520 --> 0:22:26.520 inflation and particularly next quarter when we start to lap 0:22:26.640 --> 0:22:31.200 the energy price spike, so we were not too surprised, 0:22:31.240 --> 0:22:33.240 but we're worried that it would take a while because 0:22:33.280 --> 0:22:37.240 CPI does have a pretty big lag. So that's why 0:22:37.440 --> 0:22:40.600 um uh, you know, we think that the market really 0:22:40.640 --> 0:22:42.600 took off like a rocket because it's not just this 0:22:42.760 --> 0:22:46.680 CPI report, but particularly it was we lap through that 0:22:46.840 --> 0:22:52.560 energy crisis where CPI is likely to know really decelerate. Well, 0:22:52.600 --> 0:22:55.760 let's bring in Joe Meyer, the founder CEO at Meyer Capital. 0:22:55.800 --> 0:22:57.520 I'd like to get your take as well on the 0:22:57.720 --> 0:23:00.480 By the way, a five point three percent rally yesterday 0:23:00.480 --> 0:23:03.760 and we're about half a percent today. What's your take. 0:23:05.359 --> 0:23:07.960 Thank creating Matt, thanks again for having me on Jane 0:23:08.040 --> 0:23:11.000 I speech as well. You know, I think that is 0:23:11.040 --> 0:23:14.600 as you take a look at the rally, mostly in 0:23:14.680 --> 0:23:20.760 technology stocks, people understand the importance of automation and what 0:23:20.880 --> 0:23:23.800 technology is going to play for us in the future, 0:23:23.840 --> 0:23:27.800 and that's that's really what we're excited about and investing 0:23:27.840 --> 0:23:32.199 in heavily. And I think that the more you leverage technology, 0:23:32.920 --> 0:23:34.639 the more you're going to see people getting in from 0:23:34.680 --> 0:23:38.320 the sidelines and jumping onto the technology bandwagon, which I 0:23:38.320 --> 0:23:42.520