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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Markets Podcast. I'm Paul Sweeney, alongside

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Speaker 1: my co host Matt Miller. Every business day, we bring

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Speaker 1: you interviews from CEOs, market pros, and Bloomberg experts, along

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Speaker 1: with essential market moving news. Find the Bloomberg Markets Podcast

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Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts, and

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Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot com slash podcast. Katie Greifeld, you look

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Speaker 1: a little bit shell shocked. You're a cross asset reporter,

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Speaker 1: and I know what asset you're focused on right now?

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Speaker 1: Which one crypto? Oh my god, I am living. Am

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Speaker 1: I shell shocked to you? She's like glowing. It's it's

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Speaker 1: a it's a it's a look. I will say that

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Speaker 1: my heart is pounding. Uh. This is pretty enormous news,

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Speaker 1: profound implications for the crypto industry and what it looks

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Speaker 1: like going forward. It should be right, there should be

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Speaker 1: profound implications for the asset class. But I don't really

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Speaker 1: see bitcoin moving that much. It is amazing that we're

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Speaker 1: looking at bitcoin almost around seventeen thousand and dollars a coin.

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Speaker 1: I don't have a good answer for you, but I

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Speaker 1: see your point. Did I tell you my Lehman Brothers analogy.

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Speaker 1: I want to hear it again. So first of all,

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Speaker 1: I don't know you're probably the only person in the building.

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Speaker 1: I haven't told this, but back in September eight, I

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Speaker 1: got off a plane from Germany and I turned on

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Speaker 1: my BlackBerry. Everybody on the plane turned on his or

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Speaker 1: her blackberries, and we all were shocked that Lehman Brothers

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Speaker 1: had gone under. Now, the same thing happened to me

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Speaker 1: on Sunday or sorry, on Tuesday. Tuesday night, I got

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Speaker 1: in from I was in Indonesia for a few weeks.

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Speaker 1: I turned on my iPhone this time because you know,

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Speaker 1: my BlackBerry doesn't work anymore, and I find out that

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Speaker 1: f t X is going down. Shocked again. But the

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Speaker 1: thing is just like back when Lehman Brothers failed, there

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Speaker 1: wasn't a tremendous drop in the value of the dollar.

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Speaker 1: Now f t X is failing, there's not a tremendous

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Speaker 1: drop in the value of bitcoin. You see, we have

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Speaker 1: to separate. Maybe Mattie's stop getting off plane. Yeah exactly.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you even look at the likes of Salona,

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Speaker 1: which is really the token to watch here. When you

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Speaker 1: think about the Salona blockchain and what a big back

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Speaker 1: or SPF and why f T that token to watch

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Speaker 1: because f T T I mean, if you have brought

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Speaker 1: them down, like the magnitude of the number of people

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Speaker 1: invested Salana, Definitely there's much more wealth at stake in

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Speaker 1: Salana than there is an FTT at this point. But anyway,

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Speaker 1: my point being that if you look at uh Salana,

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Speaker 1: it's I mean, it's down significantly over nine percent, but

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Speaker 1: it was down much more about half an hour ago,

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Speaker 1: so we'll see. I mean, a lot of bad news

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Speaker 1: is already priced in. I would agree with you that

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Speaker 1: seventeen thousand dollars for bitcoin in the wake of this

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Speaker 1: news does seem a little bit on intuitive, just on

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Speaker 1: a numbers basis. But again, you think about the tremendous

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Speaker 1: draw down already in the space, there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: bad news in there. Let's bring in our other roundtable

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Speaker 1: guest here, Cameron Christ, also known as Macroman. He writes

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Speaker 1: a Macroman column for for Bloomberg as well as the

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Speaker 1: macro strategists. Cam put this into the perspective of someone

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Speaker 1: who perhaps isn't a crypto fanatic. How much of your

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Speaker 1: trad fight take Oh my god? Well, actually, though, what

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Speaker 1: is your traditional finance take what is the contagion effect

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Speaker 1: here into the broader markets. I think it's probably relatively limited.

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Speaker 1: I mean, listen, crypto gets a lot of attention and

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Speaker 1: it's full of a lot of loud mouth, but uh listen,

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Speaker 1: at its peak, the market cap of crypto is what

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Speaker 1: about three trillion UM and now it's down to whatever

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Speaker 1: eight million or nine hundred million or whatever it is,

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Speaker 1: uh billion. Excuse me, um uh you can explain. I

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Speaker 1: mean that basically matches the combined market cap loss of

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Speaker 1: like Amazon, Meta and Tesla over the over the same period,

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Speaker 1: so just three companies have lost as much money for

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Speaker 1: their investors. There's all of this crypto stuff. Now you

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Speaker 1: could argue that crypto is more broadly uh owned by

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Speaker 1: retail who have levered positions, and yeah, that's right. So

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Speaker 1: obviously for an individual it might matter more. But on

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Speaker 1: a on a on an aggregate basis, um the the

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Speaker 1: only real threat I think it's some sort of transmission

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Speaker 1: from crypto to to the more traditional um uh financial system.

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Speaker 1: And that would be a case if a big bank,

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Speaker 1: for example, had uh massive exposure to fpx uh and

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Speaker 1: it was suddenly looking at a five or a ten

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Speaker 1: billion dollar hole. Um, I don't think that's the case. So, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm sorry to be skeptical, and I don't

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Speaker 1: mean to dance on on the financial grades of people

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Speaker 1: who have been suffering through this. But you know, when

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Speaker 1: you play stupid games, you win stupid prizes. And if

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Speaker 1: you buy you know, if you buy stuff on a

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Speaker 1: joke because someone tweets out a rocketship emoji, if that's

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Speaker 1: your investment case, this is kind of natural. Well, I

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Speaker 1: mean you have We should all be skeptical, right, that's

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Speaker 1: our job as journalists, but we also have to differentiate.

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Speaker 1: There's a difference between bitcoin and doge coin, right yeah, yeah, sure,

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Speaker 1: But I mean what's the you know, I'm I'm all

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Speaker 1: enough to remember five years ago people are talking about bitcoin.

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Speaker 1: You know, the the US case for bitcoin was based

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Speaker 1: on blockchain applications, Right, yeah, I think we can all

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Speaker 1: agree that that that horace has bolted. No one can

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Speaker 1: seriously claim that the bitcoin blockchain is the reason that

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Speaker 1: people buy bitcoin. Well, you would back against you and

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Speaker 1: I are the only ones who are old enough to

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Speaker 1: remember five years ago. Well no, but if you're going

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Speaker 1: to use the blockchain, bitcoin is incredibly uh inefficient. You're right,

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Speaker 1: so people would rather use the blockchain of ethereum, for example,

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Speaker 1: to build unless I mean I've asked people this question

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Speaker 1: all the time. Why doesn't bitcoin, for example, just go

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Speaker 1: to proof of stake if you're so worried about the

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Speaker 1: energy consumption. It's because the blockchain of bitcoin, the o G,

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Speaker 1: is supposed to be more secure. And I mean no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: proof proof of work is far more secure than proof

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Speaker 1: of sake. The reason is they want to restrict supply

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Speaker 1: because the people who already own it have a vested

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Speaker 1: interest in seeing the price goes up, go up. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I mean, the most of this stuff, the primary use

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Speaker 1: case is to enrich people who are early adopters end

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Speaker 1: of uh. And that is not a particularly productive use

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Speaker 1: of financial capital or intellectual capital, frankly, um. And you

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Speaker 1: can see the kind of caliber that the people that

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Speaker 1: it's attracted. I mean, I don't know if you've seen this,

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Speaker 1: and I mean, is this a comment on Michael nova

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Speaker 1: Grant specifically? Who are you talking about? I'm talking about

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Speaker 1: you know, this bankman, freed guy. Have you seen this

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Speaker 1: video clip of this this woman who is the CEO

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Speaker 1: of Alameda basically a couple, couple of people basically saying,

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Speaker 1: stop losses on an effective risk management tool. Oh really,

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Speaker 1: I mean this is from on one who had an

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Speaker 1: experience of what a year and a half is a

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Speaker 1: junior and another hedge fund before she assumed this role

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Speaker 1: of significant responsibility, and she doesn't understand the basic principles

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Speaker 1: of risk management. I mean, it's a it's a joke, uh,

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Speaker 1: and it it in my opinion, it's the natural outcome

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Speaker 1: of too much free money, too much liquidity that's been

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Speaker 1: pumped into the global financial system for too long, and

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Speaker 1: it's flown to it's flowed to these frankly ludicrous uh endeavors.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you've no doubt seen this, this whole thing

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Speaker 1: about these people at Sequoia being blown away by by

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Speaker 1: by old Sam while he's playing a video game. I mean,

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Speaker 1: give me a break. I think it is an in

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Speaker 1: fun thought exercise. I think, would this all be happening

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Speaker 1: if the FED weren't hiking our faces off right now?

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Speaker 1: I mean, if the line was going up, I think

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Speaker 1: that the business of f TX perhaps we wouldn't be

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Speaker 1: having But you're saying this happened because the FED was

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Speaker 1: cutting had cut too, so low, and because we were

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Speaker 1: spending trillions and trillions of dollars in fiscal's just sort

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Speaker 1: of passing it out with a helicopter. Yeah, and and

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Speaker 1: and you know, the the genius quote unquote geniuses who

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Speaker 1: have disrupted things. I mean, I thought this was supposed

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Speaker 1: to be decentralized finance, and yet we, funny enough, end

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Speaker 1: up with a huge concentration of risk and wealth in

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Speaker 1: the hands of a few people and a few institutions

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Speaker 1: who were committing the same mistakes that quote unquote Track

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Speaker 1: five have been making over three or four hundred years,

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Speaker 1: and have not entirely learned their lesson, but learned their

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Speaker 1: lesson to some extent, or at least had regulation to

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Speaker 1: prevent the most egregious of these, uh of these, you know,

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Speaker 1: these misdeeds, I mean, taking client money and spending it

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Speaker 1: on something else. It's just you can't do it. And

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Speaker 1: I think these that's under investigation right now. Just to

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Speaker 1: be clear, we're not exactly that allegation. But the I mean,

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Speaker 1: the the in my mind, the appropriate analog is not Lehman,

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Speaker 1: because none of this crypto stuff is systemically important enough,

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Speaker 1: as I said, to be to be to be Lehman.

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Speaker 1: But it it's more like I'm f Global, you know

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Speaker 1: where John Corzine took took client money and bought two

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Speaker 1: year BTPs uh which went horribly wrong and MS global

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Speaker 1: blew up. Yeah. I mean, I don't think the Lehman

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Speaker 1: analogy is not that not that this is a Lehman

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Speaker 1: Brothers moment for the market at large, but just for

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Speaker 1: the crypto industry. Um. The concern is this has shaken

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Speaker 1: confidence so much in what you clearly view as a

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Speaker 1: con game. Um, and now they're going to have to

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Speaker 1: do something about it to try and get well. Then

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Speaker 1: the irony is that the whole, the whole philosophy behind

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Speaker 1: crypto is trust list finance, right, and yet how much

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Speaker 1: trust was implicitly placed in these centralized exchanges which are

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Speaker 1: actually half exchange and half broker. I mean, I I

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Speaker 1: you know, if if the whole point is that you

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Speaker 1: get get out of traditional finance, and yet you you

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Speaker 1: to introduce counterparty risk to these centralized exchanges, it's kind

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Speaker 1: of counter to the underlying ethos, isn't it. It's a

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Speaker 1: good question, I mean, to your point that it's supposed

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Speaker 1: to be trust less when you introduce centralization that trustlessness

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Speaker 1: goes away. It's not the same as trusting a piece

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Speaker 1: of code, trusting a smart contract to execute. You actually

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Speaker 1: have to trust other humans. Again, I think you also

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Speaker 1: have to differentiate between the asset itself and the businesses

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Speaker 1: that now have been built around it. Um. Yeah, But

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Speaker 1: I would say this, to deny the likelihood that you're

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Speaker 1: going to get centralization or a concentration of of ownership

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Speaker 1: and wealth in some large institutions is to deny human nature.

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Speaker 1: And I mean it reminds me a bit of the

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Speaker 1: m m T. People would say, well, uh, if we

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Speaker 1: get inflation because of m m T, WHI all the

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Speaker 1: government has to do is tighten fiscal policy radically and

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Speaker 1: now I'll get rid of the inflation. Okay, fine, but

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Speaker 1: in what real world is uh? Is a government going

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Speaker 1: to tighten fiscal policy when when inflation becomes problematic and

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Speaker 1: and starts to hit growth. I mean maybe the UK

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Speaker 1: is going to do it, uh, ironically enough after the

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Speaker 1: loose trust budget blew up. But I mean you really

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Speaker 1: think that the US government is going to engage in

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Speaker 1: an explicit and massive fiscal tightening for the sole purpose

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Speaker 1: of controlling inflation. Of course, it's politically. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: just that's not the way human nature works. Are you

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Speaker 1: surprised though that? Are you surprised in that case that

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Speaker 1: even after this, um, we've you know, the tide has

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Speaker 1: gone out and we've seen the SPF is not wearing

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Speaker 1: a bathing suit. Nonetheless, one bitcoin is one one bitcoin

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Speaker 1: is still worth seventeen thousand dollars um. It's a lot

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Speaker 1: of money. I mean, it's still it a lot more

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Speaker 1: than it even costs to mind a bitcoin. Uh. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: although I gather that calculus has narrowed quite quite substantially. Sure,

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Speaker 1: but it's well, just it's a lot of money for

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Speaker 1: a line of code that the only thing really that

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Speaker 1: gives it value is the belief of the group that

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Speaker 1: it has value even beyond something like gold, and certainly

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Speaker 1: far beyond something like the dollar. Yeah. I mean listen, if, if, if,

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Speaker 1: even after all this, uh, there is a significant cohort

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Speaker 1: of people that collectively agree that the Emperor's new code

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Speaker 1: is actually still pretty stunning, then it is pretty stunning

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Speaker 1: unless you know, a critical mass of people say, actually,

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Speaker 1: he's not wearing it at all. He's got thank you,

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Speaker 1: he's he's wearing you know, he doesn't have the bathing

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Speaker 1: suit on um to to mix metaphors. UM, but it

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Speaker 1: listens the entire crypto And again I think all comes razor.

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Speaker 1: You know, why do you see crypto doing what it's

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Speaker 1: doing today? Why do you see people saying what they're saying.

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Speaker 1: It's because they benefit UM, and there's invested interest in

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Speaker 1: keeping the ball in the air UH as as high

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Speaker 1: as possible. I mean, like a micro strategy for example.

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Speaker 1: Obviously they've pivoted their entire company to being essentially a

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Speaker 1: bitcoin etf And I mean I've looked at some of

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Speaker 1: this Sailor guys tweets. It's I mean the guy, the

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Speaker 1: guy spends all day tweeting absolute inanities about about about

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Speaker 1: crypto that sound deep but are actually complete and pain

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Speaker 1: and nonsense. UM. But hey, he's trying to drum up

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Speaker 1: an ongoing narrative that this is where you want to

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Speaker 1: be well and a lot of Wall Street has joined

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Speaker 1: in on that, right, I mean otherwise, absolutely absolutely UM.

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Speaker 1: But obviously again, anyone what's a passing history of traditional

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Speaker 1: finance can tell you that just because Walls Freed embraces

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Speaker 1: a certain investment trend doesn't mean that it's useful or

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Speaker 1: profitable in the long run. Funny enough, on my YouTube algorithm,

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Speaker 1: I seem to be getting a lot of clips of

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Speaker 1: the big short these days, which, uh, I don't know

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Speaker 1: it is probably says something about karma. I guess in

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Speaker 1: the context of what's going on in the in the cryptospec.

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Speaker 1: So as an investor, then, I mean, with this kind

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Speaker 1: of skepticism, do you just stay completely out or do

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Speaker 1: you see a way that an investor could get involved

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Speaker 1: in this still for some kind of healthy return. Well,

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Speaker 1: I mean, obviously I'm not the right person to ask

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Speaker 1: which of these little digital tulips is the right one

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Speaker 1: to uh, is the right one to to to purchase?

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Speaker 1: Or how you should trade that? UM, what I will

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Speaker 1: say is is that there's one sort of universal truth,

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Speaker 1: which is the people that get rich in a gold mine,

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Speaker 1: in a gold rush typically the people that sell the

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Speaker 1: picks and jubbles. Right. Well, I I want to go

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Speaker 1: back to the um, to the blockchain, because that seems

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Speaker 1: to be the beginning, what was the beginning of what

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Speaker 1: drew Wall Street into the crypto area, And it still

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Speaker 1: makes sense that you could build a lot of useful

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Speaker 1: products on the blockchain. You could keep deeds of ownership

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Speaker 1: on it or UM you know, driver's licenses, etcetera. I've

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Speaker 1: never said why that means you would want to bid

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Speaker 1: up the token though. What do you think about building

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Speaker 1: businesses or products applications on the blockchain? Well, I mean, listen,

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Speaker 1: I I think, again, with with being sort of a

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Speaker 1: moderately informed lay person, I would suggest to you that

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Speaker 1: the vast majority of use cases for the blockchain itself

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Speaker 1: are simply replicating databases. Uh and uh you can you

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Speaker 1: can achieve just as much with a standard SQL database

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Speaker 1: or whatever as you can with the blockchain. I mean,

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Speaker 1: is it you really need to have a driver's life

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Speaker 1: is on the blockchain rather than a standard database. I mean,

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Speaker 1: what's the marginal what's the marginal utility of that? I

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Speaker 1: was just suggesting that, No, no, no, but you know,

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Speaker 1: we're onions or or what you know whatever. I think

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Speaker 1: there's a pretty limited, uh marginal utility for putting them

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Speaker 1: in the blockchain rather than current UM database storage. Uh.

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Speaker 1: You know, there are exceptions, and I will I will,

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Speaker 1: I will concede that. But again, if you're going to

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Speaker 1: use it for the express purpose of the blockchain, surely

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Speaker 1: the most efficiently run blockchain is the one you want

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Speaker 1: to use, not the one that just has the little

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Speaker 1: the little widget that goes up the highest and price.

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Speaker 1: But obviously Wallace read makes money from the widget going

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Speaker 1: up in price rather than the underlying blockchain technology. So

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Speaker 1: naturally that's where grabbing, that's where attention is focused. I

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Speaker 1: jump in here because this is something I think about

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Speaker 1: all the time. To Camp's point that it's just a database,

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Speaker 1: sometimes I think about what the ambition of crypto is this,

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Speaker 1: This is something I thought about all the time while

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Speaker 1: reading at Levine's crypto piece, which came out two weeks ago.

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Speaker 1: It just feels like if you're trying to recreate a

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Speaker 1: parallel financial system that is more efficient, there is more secure.

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Speaker 1: Uh that is, to get back to what we're talking

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Speaker 1: about trust lists, is can that be enough? Why shouldn't

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Speaker 1: that be enough if we make the financial system a

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Speaker 1: little bit more efficient? I think it's when you get

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Speaker 1: into the extreme speculation that we've seen in the crypto space,

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Speaker 1: when you think about, you know, creating a new world

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Speaker 1: reserve currency that it just feels like we've sort of

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Speaker 1: lost but could be actually a really cool use case. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: But but again I would say that is sort of

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Speaker 1: an inevitable product of human nature. Right. If you include

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Speaker 1: a a financial instrument that that floats in price, people

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Speaker 1: are going to speculate on it. And I mean a

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Speaker 1: lot of my old friends from foreign exchange UH over

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Speaker 1: the last decade have pivoted to crypto because frankly, you

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Speaker 1: wanna this year is a slightly different, but you know

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Speaker 1: for years, you know, do you want to trade the

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Speaker 1: euro which trades on a sixth ball and maybe moves

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Speaker 1: thirty pips today, or do you want to trade bitcoin

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Speaker 1: that moves ten percent a day? I mean, where do

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Speaker 1: you think you're going to make more money? Where the

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Speaker 1: spreads wider um, where the fees bigger? Where is there

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Speaker 1: more juice the thing that moves a lot and is

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Speaker 1: much less efficient. So naturally that's what That's where Wall

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Speaker 1: Street is focused its attention on part of the whole

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Speaker 1: crypto sphere, the bit with the biggest, fattest, juiciest margins.

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Speaker 1: And I mean it is a fascinating market structure experiment.

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Speaker 1: Who knows where it goes from here? But I was

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Speaker 1: actually at crypto Twitter drinks last night in a wine cellar.

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Speaker 1: There were a lot of sad people in that room,

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Speaker 1: but a lot of them can because of those two products.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you've already heard about the skepticism that Cameron

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Speaker 1: has for crypto, and I can unload on Twitter. I

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Speaker 1: can't believe you're still participating in that. By the way,

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Speaker 1: do you feel like it's in a way it's immoral?

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Speaker 1: Do I feel that Twitter, the social media platform is immoral? Yes? No,

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Speaker 1: I mean most social media platforms are responsible only for

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Speaker 1: negativity in this world. Feels like a deep seated issue.

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Speaker 1: But I would say that a lot of the people

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Speaker 1: in that room last night came from high frequency traders.

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Speaker 1: They came from Wall Street Wall Street traditional finance roles

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Speaker 1: simply because I mean, like Camp said, there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of juicy spreads there. There's a lot of money to

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Speaker 1: be made. But also it's interesting to a lot of

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Speaker 1: these people to be part of building an asset class

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Speaker 1: in real time. I mean, how often I wasn't around

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Speaker 1: when junk bond trading became a thing. Where it goes

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Speaker 1: from here is an open question, obviously. I want to

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Speaker 1: Camp Cameron. I want to you to apply your healthy

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Speaker 1: skepticism to social media. What do you think about social media?

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Speaker 1: Just for a second, before I get to cp I

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Speaker 1: and the markets. Oh, I mean, and I think it's

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Speaker 1: the cancer on society by and large. Um, I think it. Uh.

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Speaker 1: It exposes and amplifies the worst of human nature unfortunately. UM.

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Speaker 1: And it's it's it's it enforces what I termed sort

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Speaker 1: of the the Gresham's law of discourse. Gresham's law of

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Speaker 1: being a sort of a seventeenth century Montary theory back

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Speaker 1: when money was actual coins, that bad money drives out

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Speaker 1: good in the sense, if you've got a clip coin

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Speaker 1: or a real full silver coin, you're gonna spend the

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Speaker 1: clip coin and keep the silver coin, right. Uh. Social

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Speaker 1: media essentially drives out reasonable opinion, and it encourages the

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Speaker 1: use of outrage, UH, conflict, entrepreneurship, UM, propaganda, this this

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Speaker 1: sort of stuff which I think is not beneficial to

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Speaker 1: a well functioning UH society. I can't disagree outrage gets rewarded.

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Speaker 1: I can't disagree it outrages me. I want to ask

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Speaker 1: you about UM C p I and the incredible run

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Speaker 1: in markets. Yesterday, Valerie Title, a producer of ours out

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Speaker 1: of London, pointed out that we haven't seen a move

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Speaker 1: that big since the US government dumped two trillion dollars

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Speaker 1: of stimulus into the system. Is that Does that make

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Speaker 1: sense to you that CPI coming in at seven point

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Speaker 1: seven percent instead of seven point nine percent is enough

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Speaker 1: to drive a five and a half percent gain on

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Speaker 1: the SMPN one day. Um well no, obviously, um we

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Speaker 1: had a similar downside miss on CPI in reported in

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Speaker 1: August and obviously we didn't see anything like that kind

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Speaker 1: of that kind of move. Let's bring in Jay Hatfield

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Speaker 1: right now, CEO and founder over an Infrastructure Capital Advisers.

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Speaker 1: Um G. Great to have you in the studio after

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Speaker 1: an unbelievable rally in stocks yesterday, um all driven by

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Speaker 1: a cp I print that was just barely under expectations.

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Speaker 1: What do you think about it? Thanks for having me

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Speaker 1: on that. We actually have been a pretty optimistic about

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Speaker 1: inflation and particularly next quarter when we start to lap

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Speaker 1: the energy price spike, so we were not too surprised,

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Speaker 1: but we're worried that it would take a while because

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Speaker 1: CPI does have a pretty big lag. So that's why

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Speaker 1: um uh, you know, we think that the market really

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Speaker 1: took off like a rocket because it's not just this

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Speaker 1: CPI report, but particularly it was we lap through that

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Speaker 1: energy crisis where CPI is likely to know really decelerate. Well,

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Speaker 1: let's bring in Joe Meyer, the founder CEO at Meyer Capital.

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Speaker 1: I'd like to get your take as well on the

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Speaker 1: By the way, a five point three percent rally yesterday

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Speaker 1: and we're about half a percent today. What's your take.

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Speaker 1: Thank creating Matt, thanks again for having me on Jane

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Speaker 1: I speech as well. You know, I think that is

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Speaker 1: as you take a look at the rally, mostly in

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Speaker 1: technology stocks, people understand the importance of automation and what

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Speaker 1: technology is going to play for us in the future,

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Speaker 1: and that's that's really what we're excited about and investing

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Speaker 1: in heavily. And I think that the more you leverage technology,

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Speaker 1: the more you're going to see people getting in from

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Speaker 1: the sidelines and jumping onto the technology bandwagon, which I

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Speaker 1: think is critical to get leverage, which is what's needed

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Speaker 1: to um take advantage of these challenging markets. By the way,

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Speaker 1: before we go any further on the market discussion, I

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Speaker 1: want to say thank you for your service. Joe served

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Speaker 1: in the U. S. Army. He was a major and

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Speaker 1: I was thinking about this this morning. The bond market

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Speaker 1: honors our veterans with a holiday the New York Stock

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Speaker 1: Exchange and the equities markets days open, it seems almost

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Speaker 1: like they don't care. Do you take offense to that

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Speaker 1: in anyway, Joe, Well, Matt, thank you very much. You know,

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Speaker 1: one of the things I think that's important on Veterans

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Speaker 1: Day is it is great that we honor the veterans.

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Speaker 1: It's up to folks how they want to honor it.

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Speaker 1: But more importantly, I think it's a families of veterans

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Speaker 1: who also deserve a lot of respect and honor because

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Speaker 1: they put up with a lot of unknowns, and I

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Speaker 1: think we need to remember that on these days too.

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Speaker 1: But more importantly, know whether the bond market honors or

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Speaker 1: the market doesn't. To me, it's it's it's a chance

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Speaker 1: at least say thanks to all the veterans who have

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Speaker 1: served in all their families. So that's kind of my

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Speaker 1: pot process on that. Yeah, I'm being I was being

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Speaker 1: a little ton of cheek about the market. I do

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Speaker 1: think it's important to honor our veterans. And I come

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Speaker 1: from a family military family, and you know, sometimes um

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Speaker 1: they do things for the country that not everybody else

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Speaker 1: is willing to do. So thank you very much for that.

428
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 1: Let's get back to our talk on the markets and

429
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,040
Speaker 1: JAU some of the e t F you run in

430
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:15,440
Speaker 1: for cap Equity Income Fund MLB e t F preferred

431
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,640
Speaker 1: e t F. The latter to me is pretty interesting

432
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,880
Speaker 1: right now, especially in this high rate environment, and maybe

433
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,439
Speaker 1: they're going to continue to go even higher. How do

434
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 1: you think about real estate investment and reads specifically in

435
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:32,959
Speaker 1: this in this environment, Well, we think, Matt, that there

436
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:39,119
Speaker 1: significantly undervalued. We don't, but you're correct that if rates

437
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 1: just keep going higher and higher higher, they valuations will

438
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 1: go down. But what a lot of investors gonna appreciate

439
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 1: is that's true of all asset classes, not just tech stocks.

440
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,159
Speaker 1: All stocks have very long duration. So that's why you

441
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,320
Speaker 1: really saw this huge down draft in the market when

442
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 1: rates went from two RAD to UM to four. But

443
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 1: reats have been we think on early punished, and when

444
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 1: the capital markets stabilizer think it will see some go

445
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 1: private because they're well below UM what would be considered

446
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 1: to be normal fair value. Well, talking about normal fair value,

447
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 1: it kind of feels like the equity market was primed

448
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:18,920
Speaker 1: for a rebound anyway. And I think there's a lot

449
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:21,080
Speaker 1: of questions about whether or not the price action we

450
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 1: saw yesterday was indeed a short squeeze or really based

451
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 1: on the fundamentals. I feel like there is a camp

452
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 1: to say that perhaps it was based on the fundamentals,

453
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,119
Speaker 1: because this kind of moment of capitulation that the market

454
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 1: I think has been waiting for for for nine months,

455
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:37,679
Speaker 1: we hit that, and then you kind of saw this

456
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:42,399
Speaker 1: pivot point becoming a everyone by everything right now? What

457
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 1: would be the bare case for the markets if the

458
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 1: idea is that recession has been priced in for the

459
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,640
Speaker 1: last nine months or so, and on top of that,

460
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,200
Speaker 1: inflation has peaked and it's coming down even faster than

461
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 1: expected because base effects are finally going to work in

462
00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:00,359
Speaker 1: its favor. Well, I think there's three over haangs on

463
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:04,720
Speaker 1: the market, the FED, the FED, and the Fed. They

464
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:06,720
Speaker 1: are going to be the last to know that inflation

465
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 1: is going down. As I started to refer to UM initially, UM,

466
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:15,200
Speaker 1: they really have misdead nosed the seventies. It was really

467
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 1: driven by two gigantic oil price shocks with some loose

468
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 1: monetary policy. So they're focused on the expectations theory. And

469
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:26,439
Speaker 1: last time I was on WE we were talking about

470
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:28,639
Speaker 1: you know, there's no longer FED poot it's really the

471
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,679
Speaker 1: FED short So that's really the key. Even yesterday the

472
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,919
Speaker 1: market came off when there was some Fed commentary, So

473
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,399
Speaker 1: that's really the opening, is that the Fed is the

474
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 1: last to know. They keep tightening and we have a

475
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 1: mild recession. But to your point on that the Fed

476
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 1: is the last to know, aren't they already making steps

477
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 1: to at least have a step down and to slow

478
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 1: down a little bit. This was something that was expected

479
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 1: in September where we're supposed to see the last seventy

480
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,680
Speaker 1: five basis point hike. Now they're still talking about some

481
00:27:55,760 --> 00:28:00,200
Speaker 1: economists predicting seventy five in December, but ultimately that mean

482
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 1: the last really jumbo rate hike that we see from

483
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,879
Speaker 1: the federal reserves. So aren't they already kind of accommodating

484
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,399
Speaker 1: this lag that you're talking about? Well, there seems to

485
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 1: be some disagreement within the FED, because you did see that,

486
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 1: you know, on Fed Day where the statement was viewed

487
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 1: being super bullish, but the press conference is barished. So

488
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:22,960
Speaker 1: I think there's a debate between sort of the expectations

489
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 1: camp that we have to be the new Paul Boker

490
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:30,680
Speaker 1: crush this entrenched inflation. We don't really believe in entrenched

491
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 1: inflation that comes from really two things, um, excessive monetary

492
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:39,480
Speaker 1: growth and usually energy price shocks, not expectations, but there

493
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 1: is that expectations camp and so they're going to keep

494
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 1: pounding on this notion of being hawkish, which could and

495
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 1: raise rates more than they need to, so you could

496
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 1: have a mild recession. We're not concerned about that. But

497
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 1: in terms of just going all in in the market

498
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 1: right now, you just have to be where the Fed

499
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 1: at any moment can come out and make a statement

500
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 1: and take the market down. So we think next quarter

501
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 1: will be more stable than this quarter. Joe, what do

502
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 1: you think about rates? I mean it plays in especially

503
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 1: to the tech area in which you're more interested. Um,

504
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 1: how do you feel about where we're going and how

505
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 1: much does it matter to the stocks that you like? Yeah,

506
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 1: I think that the reason why you're seeing such a

507
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 1: bounce and technology right now, and you know stocks up three, four,

508
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 1: five seven in some cases is because it is stocks

509
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 1: created in place and hedge for you. Basically, what I'm

510
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 1: saying is that when you invest in technology, when companies

511
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 1: invest in technology, you're basically getting a asset at a

512
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 1: at a price that doesn't inflate as quickly as say

513
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:48,440
Speaker 1: salaries or oil or other things that are required to

514
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 1: bring your product to market. And so by investing in technology,

515
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 1: you know companies like Service now, UM, You've got Oracle,

516
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 1: You've got the payment companies. All those investments that you

517
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 1: make today are really hedges against the other inflation items

518
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 1: that hitch in. So rates do matter, but I think

519
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 1: the technology stocks get hammered much more than they should

520
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 1: when rates go up, and so if rates drop, people

521
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 1: are gonna put more money back to work in technology.

522
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 1: And I think when the rates drop that's really more

523
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 1: of the trader types that are trying to get leverage

524
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 1: on technology, and I think that's one of the reasons

525
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 1: why you're seeing such a bump in technology now. But

526
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 1: I really think it's it's an inflation hedge when you

527
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 1: invest in technology, which is why we focus on both

528
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 1: in public companies and private I wanted to get into

529
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 1: UM the investments that you guys are UM specifically interested in. Uh, Jay,

530
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 1: let me start with you. I'm gonna get back to

531
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:48,480
Speaker 1: Joe and the tech s docs in a moment. Are

532
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 1: you focused more on the infrastructure, more on the energy plays,

533
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 1: more on the real estate stuff. Well, we think that

534
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 1: all of those sectors are going to continue to do well.

535
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 1: We've been super negative out tech stocks throughout the year

536
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 1: so far, but um really, if we're correct about inflation decelerating,

537
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 1: that means a dollar weekend and tech stocks will do

538
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 1: way better because they've been hurt by foreign currency. But

539
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 1: we would still be a little bit defensive through the

540
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 1: rest of this year. As I mentioned, we're concerned about

541
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 1: um fed speak and potentially taken us into a recession.

542
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 1: And all those companies are much lower multiples, have higher

543
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 1: dividend yields, more defensive if we have another down draft

544
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 1: in the market, So we'd still be pretty defensive and

545
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 1: go after dividend yields with preferred stocks reads MLPs, we

546
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 1: think are still fairly valued increasing dividends. Joe, what do

547
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 1: you think? Yeah, Look, it's the technology strategy is critical

548
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 1: for us because we we fundamentally believe that small and

549
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 1: midsize companies are really going to get steamrolled if they

550
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 1: can't get into the same level of service that big

551
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 1: companies are doing, and the only way you do that

552
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 1: is with technology. So to us, what's going to happen

553
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 1: in the next two to three months is interesting. But

554
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 1: what we're looking at is what companies do we get

555
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 1: into now that will give us a long term run

556
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 1: over the next two to three years. And so um,

557
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 1: that to us is technology because you have to bring

558
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 1: the service level. We've all done it where you've ordered

559
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 1: items and you need to change and if you don't

560
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 1: get a return merchandise uh component put together and have

561
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 1: all that technology connected, you're you're gonna be hurt. And

562
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 1: I think that companies like Zebra, which really ties you

563
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 1: to the Internet of things, you know, they're at uh

564
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 1: two dollars right now, give or take change. I think

565
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 1: they're all time high with five dollars, so you're getting

566
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 1: it at almost a discount. UM service now is down.

567
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:57,240
Speaker 1: Ui Path is a great automation company that are at

568
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 1: eleven dollars that came out at eight. All of those

569
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 1: types of companies have found a nice bottom here, and

570
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 1: I think that now is the time to start buying

571
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 1: into them. And that's what we've been doing for the

572
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 1: last month or so. So you know, I think it's

573
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:15,240
Speaker 1: a great opportunity to really start getting back into technology,

574
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 1: especially as the dollar weekends. To Jay's point, and um,

575
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 1: you know, the rates are going to drop a little

576
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 1: bit or at least stay steady, and that allows these

577
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 1: companies to invest, both large companies and the smaller medium

578
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 1: ones which really need to invest in technology. And you

579
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 1: think about it, there, their last major upgrade cycle is

580
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 1: y two K and they've got to invest and I

581
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 1: think that's where they're going to do well. Microsoft will

582
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 1: do well this in this area as well. When you

583
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 1: see these headlines about massive layoffs across the tech based meta,

584
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 1: for example, Stripe, even Um, Twitter will put aside because

585
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 1: a little bit of a different story. But when you

586
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 1: see these tech layoffs, what camp are you in. Is

587
00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 1: this the big macro signal that I think lot of

588
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 1: people were waiting for when it comes to the labor

589
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 1: market or is this a tech specific phenomenon where hiring

590
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 1: was kind of on the up and up for so

591
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 1: long that this is just the natural reversal of it all. Yeah, Cret,

592
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 1: great question. You know there was a race for talent.

593
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:20,799
Speaker 1: I mean you've got, uh these young men and women

594
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,319
Speaker 1: that are coming out of these universities and they're trying

595
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:24,840
Speaker 1: to decide do they want to go into tech and

596
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 1: they want to go into consulting, or do they want

597
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 1: to go into banking. And so I've got a couple

598
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 1: of children that have been out of school for a

599
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 1: little while, and so I saw the race for talent,

600
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 1: and they just these large technology companies were just hiring

601
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 1: as fast as they could because they know they needed

602
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 1: that talent. You also had Crypto hiring or trying to

603
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,320
Speaker 1: hire a lot of talent, and so that's gonna dampen

604
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 1: the race for talent a little bit. And I think

605
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:57,319
Speaker 1: now the technology companies believe that they have to pull

606
00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 1: their horns in. This is a great opportunity to do it,

607
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 1: to call the bottom out a little bit and keep

608
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:08,319
Speaker 1: the best folks at at the top. And I think that, uh,

609
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 1: those layoffs are basically a chance to regroup and this

610
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 1: is this is probably the best time to do it

611
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,319
Speaker 1: before they have to start figuring out where they go next. Jay,

612
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 1: I'd love to get your take on cryptom in a sense,

613
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:24,800
Speaker 1: there's kind of infrastructure story here, right. I heard Squarey

614
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:26,919
Speaker 1: from American Express talk about the fact that he didn't

615
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,759
Speaker 1: think they're going to take over the payment rails. Um.

616
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 1: When you look at the the industry, um, what do

617
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 1: you think first of all about you know, the wild

618
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 1: westness of it, and then when you look at the

619
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:42,640
Speaker 1: asset class doesn't have any value to you. Well, we've

620
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:46,360
Speaker 1: been kind of super crypto bears. We thought that the

621
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 1: big run up in bitcoin was solely driven by the

622
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 1: increase in the money supply, and so when a crypto

623
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,840
Speaker 1: is at forty, we were predicting twenty. But if you

624
00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:00,840
Speaker 1: really look at it, the bitcoin price before or the

625
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:04,279
Speaker 1: big FED liquidity injection was ten thousand, so that would

626
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 1: really be our target. So we've been super negative about

627
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 1: the asset class, partly because Article one of the Constitution

628
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 1: makes it clear you cannot create your own currency, so

629
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 1: it's it's flat out legal in the United States, so

630
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 1: it really is an a currency, it's a token, and

631
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:23,080
Speaker 1: what apparently has been happening is that it really was

632
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:26,799
Speaker 1: a house of cards where the exchanges were propping up

633
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:31,399
Speaker 1: their own tokens and also propping up other exchanges. So

634
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 1: we would continue to be bears on it, and also

635
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 1: just use it as a lesson that investors should always

636
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:41,719
Speaker 1: focus on cash flow, earnings, dividends and be relatively conservative

637
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 1: because in down markets you're gonna lose plenty of money

638
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:47,400
Speaker 1: anyway without taking that kind of risk. Just got thirty seconds.

639
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 1: What do you think? No, I think the blockchain is

640
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 1: here to stay. I think that crypto is interesting to me.

641
00:36:57,760 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 1: I think for folks to have a little bit of

642
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:03,239
Speaker 1: it in their portfolio, is A is a high risk component?

643
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 1: Is fine? Um? You know, we've we owned a little bit,

644
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 1: and I think that there's for example, micro strategies. To me,

645
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 1: is A is a simple play to make. They've got

646
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,479
Speaker 1: their stocks basically price where it has been historically before

647
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 1: they even got into crypto. So if you buy a

648
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,440
Speaker 1: micro strategy right now, you're basically getting their crypto for

649
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:26,359
Speaker 1: free and their their Web three strategy for free. So

650
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:30,320
Speaker 1: you know, to me, I think it's a smart play. Um.

651
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:34,359
Speaker 1: But I think that the whole technology side is is

652
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:37,879
Speaker 1: where the opportunity lies, and it's all about automation. Joe,

653
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:39,799
Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining us. Joe Meyer their CEO

654
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 1: and founder at Meyer Capital. Jay Hatfield, CEO and founder

655
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:49,439
Speaker 1: Infrastructure Capital Advisor. Is great to have you in the studio. Look,

656
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 1: we're talking a lot about the crypto chaos today, but

657
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:55,520
Speaker 1: I really think the story on the sun the stock

658
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:58,240
Speaker 1: market is really crucial because we had a five point

659
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 1: three percent rally yesterday one that we hadn't seen since

660
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 1: the depths of the pandemic back in as Matt quotes

661
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,319
Speaker 1: our producer of Valerie Titele, the last time we saw

662
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:11,960
Speaker 1: this kind of rally, two trillion dollars of stimulus was

663
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 1: pumped into the American economy. So to see that kind

664
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 1: of reaction really begs the question is it sustainable? Is

665
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:21,319
Speaker 1: it real? Is that bear market carnage that we've seen

666
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:24,880
Speaker 1: the stock market finally over? Who better to ask? Was

667
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:27,920
Speaker 1: it a short squeeze? Oh my gosh, Okay, it was

668
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:32,840
Speaker 1: a short squeeze. I don't believe it was a short squeeze,

669
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 1: but we are going to ask someone who might just

670
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 1: have the answer to that. David Kat's, President, CEO of

671
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 1: Matrix Asset Advisers. Rescue us, David, because Matt and I

672
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:44,320
Speaker 1: are having a major argument that started at three am

673
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,399
Speaker 1: this morning. It's going on for eight hours about whether

674
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 1: or not yesterday was a short squeeze or really had

675
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 1: a fundamental driver behind it. We think it's a combination

676
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 1: of both. Right now, the market you can't say both.

677
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:02,920
Speaker 1: It is this Sophie's choice man. Sorry guys, Uh, the

678
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:06,080
Speaker 1: market is so negative and you have this sell off

679
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:08,880
Speaker 1: an aggregate for the SMP and for a lot of

680
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 1: technology companies. Everybody's thinking the market's going to go lower.

681
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:15,319
Speaker 1: So you finally had a bit of good news with

682
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 1: the CPI numbers, and you had a lot of people

683
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 1: piling in. So you had people who were out of

684
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:22,319
Speaker 1: the market fearful they'd missed the rally that jumped in

685
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 1: very quickly, and then that accelerated with that short squeeze,

686
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 1: So a combination of the two things. We think very importantly.

687
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:32,680
Speaker 1: It's impossible to predict the day to day trading, but

688
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 1: if you look at a six to twelve month time horizon,

689
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:38,799
Speaker 1: we think there's a very good likelihood stocks will be

690
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 1: meaningfully higher. We wouldn't chase rallies like yesterday, but when

691
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 1: the next time the market sells off a few percent,

692
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:46,759
Speaker 1: we'd be putting money to work. There are a lot

693
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,840
Speaker 1: of great businesses at great prices. You know, that's a

694
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 1: phrase that I picked up in your note. Great businesses

695
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 1: and equally great prices in a number of stocks that

696
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:58,719
Speaker 1: you don't just recommend, you also own them for yourself.

697
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 1: Amazon is one, Google is another. Microsoft. Um have valuations

698
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:07,240
Speaker 1: come down enough, We think they have. You know, surely

699
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,879
Speaker 1: in Google's case, this is a great growth company. It's

700
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 1: the premier search company of the world. Uh yet a

701
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 1: week ago was selling it about sixteen times next year's numbers.

702
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 1: That's a really good price. Microsoft also dominant franchise at

703
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 1: twenty two times earnings. Amazon is a little bit more

704
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:27,399
Speaker 1: complicated since they don't earn money. But if you look

705
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:29,800
Speaker 1: at them and a on a price to sales or

706
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:32,520
Speaker 1: price to eat it off basis, it's selling it. It's

707
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 1: lows for the last ten years. So we think Amazon

708
00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 1: is a good opportunity. We think the others are compelling

709
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:43,279
Speaker 1: in terms of the stock prices on evaluation basis and

710
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 1: as an opportunity. I am fascinated, Matt by the fact

711
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:49,560
Speaker 1: that so many tech bowls are coming out of the

712
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:52,800
Speaker 1: woodwork when for so long, for ten months, we've literally

713
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:58,400
Speaker 1: heard that tech is just not worth the bid anymore

714
00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 1: for for lack of better term, because of the kind

715
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:01,960
Speaker 1: of great strategy, And now you have more of these

716
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:04,279
Speaker 1: valuations were so high and now the market head but

717
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 1: we had come down. But even with those valuations, they

718
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:09,840
Speaker 1: were still the fastest growing companies on the SMP five hundred,

719
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:12,840
Speaker 1: and no one was buying into them. But I think David,

720
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:14,839
Speaker 1: to your point, we only have about a minute left.

721
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:16,880
Speaker 1: But I have to ask, does this mean if you

722
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 1: are bullish on tech? Are you bullish then by association

723
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:23,840
Speaker 1: on the entire market, on the entire benchmark, Well, we

724
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 1: are bullish on the on the overall market, we think

725
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 1: there are lots of opportunities. To your question, we were

726
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:32,239
Speaker 1: pretty careful and cautious on technology going into the year,

727
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:34,360
Speaker 1: but after this sell up, we like it, but we

728
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 1: think there are other places to make good money. We

729
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 1: like the financial group. We think is very well positioned

730
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:42,880
Speaker 1: for the upcoming year. We think some medical product companies

731
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:45,960
Speaker 1: are in very good valuation territory, so there are lots

732
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:48,360
Speaker 1: of places to put money that we think you'll be

733
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 1: very profitable twelve months out. UM the chips to me

734
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:56,840
Speaker 1: is the most uh interesting and hard to get my

735
00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:00,440
Speaker 1: head round aspect of text because UM seems like we

736
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:02,759
Speaker 1: have way too many chips for PCs and still not

737
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:06,719
Speaker 1: nearly enough for cars. What do you like so Qualcom

738
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:09,880
Speaker 1: we think is a great play in the chip area.

739
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 1: They the stock has done very poorly this year. Uh,

740
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:16,319
Speaker 1: they lowered guidance on their last earning school, but they're

741
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:20,440
Speaker 1: still selling at ten times earnings. Based on this lowered guidance,

742
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 1: they have a dominant franchise in phones, but interestingly they're

743
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 1: expanding that they are going to be the dominant player

744
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 1: in automobiles for communications. Very good growth forecast and at

745
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 1: ten eleven times earnings. This is exactly the time to

746
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 1: buy it. Visibility very low, long term visibility very high.

747
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 1: David always great to get you on UM. Never enough time,

748
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 1: David Casts, President, Chief investment Officer over at Matrix Asset Advisors.

749
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 1: We have Tritty and I are great friends, and we

750
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:57,759
Speaker 1: have one of our best friends in the studio with us,

751
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:02,799
Speaker 1: Shinali Vassett, cover Wall Street for Bloomberg News, and she

752
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:07,399
Speaker 1: knows everybody in the crypto world as well. So with

753
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:10,520
Speaker 1: the implosion of f t X, Curtin and I thought,

754
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:14,360
Speaker 1: who better to invite into the interactive broker studiovengtionality yourself.

755
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 1: So f t X has now filed for bankruptcy Sam

756
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 1: Bankman Freed has stepped down as CEO. Does this mean

757
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:29,880
Speaker 1: no rescue, no bailout, no White Knight correct? Correct? Correct?

758
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:32,920
Speaker 1: So I think what's interesting is UM, you know, we

759
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:36,959
Speaker 1: have the CEO of Circle Online tweeting asking are there

760
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:40,600
Speaker 1: any other opaque, unregulated offshore entities we need to worry

761
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:43,719
Speaker 1: about here? Uh, the answer is probably yes. Like a

762
00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:47,240
Speaker 1: lot of companies went off shore when it came to cryptocurrencies.

763
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 1: When you look at the bankruptcy filing for Sam Bankman

764
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:53,839
Speaker 1: Freed's entity, he stepped down as CEO. Uh, they bought

765
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:55,959
Speaker 1: in as a new CEO, the person who has brought

766
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 1: in to help clean up the Enron scandal and recoup

767
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:01,879
Speaker 1: funds for investors. And in this instance, when it comes

768
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:03,759
Speaker 1: to f TSS, you have to ask yourself, it's a

769
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 1: hundred and thirty entities across the entire globe, what are

770
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 1: the actual assets behind them that can be recouped for

771
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:13,720
Speaker 1: clients and for investors? A lot of investors are already

772
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:16,880
Speaker 1: marking down their stakes to nothing. Well, what's fascinating to

773
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:19,759
Speaker 1: me here is that on these headlines you had bitcoins,

774
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:23,240
Speaker 1: specifically marine US as a poster child for cryptocurrencies broadly

775
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 1: just for the sake of this conversation, but it did

776
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:27,960
Speaker 1: actually drop i want to say, below seventeen thousand at

777
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:30,200
Speaker 1: that point for the headlines, it kind of came back

778
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 1: up haired some of the losses there you saw a

779
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:34,920
Speaker 1: similar fade on the SMP five hundred in the NASDAC,

780
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:38,799
Speaker 1: but those came back as well. This concept of this

781
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 1: is the Lehman moment, but for crypto only is interesting

782
00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 1: because it kind of feels like the broader market has

783
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:47,920
Speaker 1: said there is no systemic risk, there is no contagion,

784
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:51,160
Speaker 1: But does that mean that there couldn't be down the road.

785
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:54,000
Speaker 1: It's close to us next year. Even somebody I know,

786
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:57,480
Speaker 1: a CEO of cryptocompany online, was tweeting saying that we've

787
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:00,239
Speaker 1: been asking what's the contagion, what's the contagion? And the

788
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:03,160
Speaker 1: argument he makes is this is the contagion. We have

789
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 1: been seeing crypto companies fail all year long, and now

790
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:09,640
Speaker 1: we're watching one of the biggest exchanges in the world

791
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:13,440
Speaker 1: face bankruptcy. And by the way, they have clients block

792
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:17,359
Speaker 1: and they have investments Block five is halting withdrawals. People

793
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:20,680
Speaker 1: are just as worried about that. Anthony Scaramucci thirty percent

794
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 1: of his firm was recently sold to f t X Ventures,

795
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 1: and he owns lots of f t X stock as

796
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:30,360
Speaker 1: well as or his firm does, as well as half

797
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:33,280
Speaker 1: of his assets being in cryptocurrencies. So you think about

798
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:36,319
Speaker 1: just one by one multiplied that by all of f

799
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:38,399
Speaker 1: t X is clients that can't get their money back,

800
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:40,839
Speaker 1: and what kind of cash crunch there in because of it.

801
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 1: But then you know, you think Mike Wilson and Morgan Stanley,

802
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:45,879
Speaker 1: the equity strategist, had made a good point this morning

803
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 1: to Jonathan Faraoh on television, which was that this is

804
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:54,680
Speaker 1: all a product of tighter financial conditions. That idea is

805
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 1: not a contagion. It is just a market reality that

806
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:01,640
Speaker 1: cryptocurrency firms are facing. By the way, musquwarmed about a

807
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 1: potential Twitter bankruptcy if they can't be more cash rich

808
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:07,400
Speaker 1: in some amount of time. And by the way, this

809
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:10,360
Speaker 1: idea that bankruptcies will come more and more. The restructuring

810
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:12,560
Speaker 1: advisors that I spoke to Lizard was one of the

811
00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:14,319
Speaker 1: biggest on the record just a couple of weeks ago.

812
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:17,520
Speaker 1: They said, the velocity of restructuring conversations are starting to

813
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 1: pick up, meaning you could very well see many more

814
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 1: companies go bankrupt Crypto or not. Um Is everybody mad

815
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:28,560
Speaker 1: at c z? Is anyone mad at him because he

816
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:33,200
Speaker 1: effectively brought f t X down? Well, well, wait a minute,

817
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 1: So if you have by the way, typically on Wall

818
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:37,600
Speaker 1: Street Now, if you have a bunch of assets that

819
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 1: you want to sell, you don't pre announce that sale

820
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:44,359
Speaker 1: and therefore the price that you would get. Unless if

821
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:47,880
Speaker 1: I'm if I'm the Bank of Shinale, I don't go

822
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:50,279
Speaker 1: around running around saying the Bank of matt looks like

823
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:52,960
Speaker 1: it's got nothing behind it, right like that would cause

824
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:56,239
Speaker 1: a bank run. But what happened here according to a

825
00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:59,040
Speaker 1: lot of reporting, the Journal broke this part yesterday that

826
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:03,040
Speaker 1: was incredible that of sixteen billion dollars of consumer assets

827
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 1: at f t X, more than half eight billion or

828
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:10,799
Speaker 1: so were lent to Alameda, the trading firm run by

829
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:13,759
Speaker 1: Sam big Man Freed. So there's a bigger issue here

830
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:16,760
Speaker 1: of what happened to customer funds were The big question

831
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:20,520
Speaker 1: for regulators is an authorities at this point, we're investigating

832
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:24,520
Speaker 1: the situation where they misused and were they unclear about

833
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 1: how customer funds were being used and where they went,

834
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 1: And that is an f t X issue and not

835
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:31,759
Speaker 1: a finance issue. It just seems to me that c

836
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:37,920
Speaker 1: Z could have gone to SPF and said, dude, it

837
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:41,120
Speaker 1: looks like there's something not proasting on the fire, is

838
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:44,680
Speaker 1: what you're saying. Before I sink your boat on Twitter? Right,

839
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 1: why don't you take care of these? A little bit

840
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:49,719
Speaker 1: could happened. Speaking of Twitter, we should bring in our

841
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:53,440
Speaker 1: other guests today. Ed Ludlow joins us from San Francisco.

842
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 1: We gave a massive, big introductions to Shnali. Uh, we

843
00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:59,160
Speaker 1: should give one to Ed as well. He's our star

844
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:04,239
Speaker 1: West Coast correspondent and my former producer and Matt's former

845
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:10,360
Speaker 1: producer and my bestie. Okay, so just because my company

846
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:15,280
Speaker 1: is not imploding as much as yours, well, well, yeah, debatable.

847
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 1: Let's go to the Twitter story though, because ft X

848
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:21,080
Speaker 1: is not the only one that is dealing with bakermancy.

849
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:23,839
Speaker 1: Twitter is not a dealing with bankruptcy, to be super clear,

850
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:27,759
Speaker 1: but there is speculation that it might be on the

851
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:30,560
Speaker 1: brink ofpeculation from the owner of the CEO. Okay, well

852
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:34,040
Speaker 1: take it away. Yes, So yesterday Elon Musk held in

853
00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:36,160
Speaker 1: all hands with the staff that are left. Remember he

854
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:40,040
Speaker 1: laid off of them almost two weeks ago now, and

855
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:43,520
Speaker 1: he told the staff gathered on this virtual meeting that

856
00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:49,280
Speaker 1: there's a sense of urgency here. Advertising revenue has dropped significantly,

857
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:53,000
Speaker 1: either because names that are upset or a cautious have

858
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:56,160
Speaker 1: paused advertising. Must said he didn't know what the run

859
00:48:56,239 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 1: rate for the company was, which is worrying. But remember

860
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:01,760
Speaker 1: he tweeted previously that that eLearning four million dollars a day,

861
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:03,840
Speaker 1: which is why they had to lay off all the staff.

862
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:06,200
Speaker 1: And then to wrap it up, he kind of floated

863
00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:09,840
Speaker 1: the idea that bankruptcy is a real possibility for Twitter,

864
00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 1: which sort of two weeks into ownership at a time

865
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:15,440
Speaker 1: where you're trying to sell billion dollars of debt or

866
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:17,800
Speaker 1: twelve point five billion dollars of debt to the street,

867
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:22,520
Speaker 1: is a strange messaging tactic. So why what's going on there?

868
00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:25,600
Speaker 1: I think that he's just trying to lay down the law.

869
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:27,120
Speaker 1: You know, you look at some of the other things

870
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:29,640
Speaker 1: that sources tell me. He told staff, you know that

871
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:33,400
Speaker 1: the days of Silicon Valley ethos and culture are over.

872
00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:36,800
Speaker 1: He's taking away free food, he's taking away other perks.

873
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:41,280
Speaker 1: He's already canceled return remote working. And what was interesting,

874
00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:46,880
Speaker 1: he wouldn't everyone who can quit quit? Yes, yes, So

875
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:50,280
Speaker 1: we're hearing that people are resigning of their own volition,

876
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:53,360
Speaker 1: you know, even if they survived the layoffs. Um. He

877
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 1: also told, you know, the remaining staff that many of

878
00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:59,719
Speaker 1: them will have to work eighty hours a week. You

879
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:03,280
Speaker 1: remember we only just reported that when he canceled remote working,

880
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:05,920
Speaker 1: he said everyone has to be in an office forty

881
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:08,560
Speaker 1: hours a week. Now he's telling the staff eight hours.

882
00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 1: And have you guys been on Twitter in the last

883
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:13,760
Speaker 1: twenty four hours? I haven't, but it is live on Twitter.

884
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:15,960
Speaker 1: I think it is. It is scary out that. It

885
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:17,760
Speaker 1: is pretty scary out there. I mean, I mean trusted

886
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:21,480
Speaker 1: if your feedback, but everybody on there has a blue check. Now.

887
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:23,640
Speaker 1: I don't know what your guys experiences, but everyone has

888
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:26,920
Speaker 1: a blue check. And then this morning, what happens Twitter,

889
00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:29,640
Speaker 1: Blue just disappears from the platform. It's not clear what's

890
00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:31,680
Speaker 1: going on. You could join me on discord ed. All right,

891
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:33,520
Speaker 1: Unfortunately we have to go, but I'm just going to

892
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:35,440
Speaker 1: call you up over the weekend to try and least

893
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:38,600
Speaker 1: going on at least Ed Ludlow joining us from San Francisco.

894
00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:43,480
Speaker 1: Hinale Basic joining us from three desks over. That's it

895
00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:50,120
Speaker 1: for me and Pritty. This is Bloomberg. Thanks for listening

896
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:53,600
Speaker 1: to the Bloomberg Markets podcast. You can subscribe and listen

897
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:57,520
Speaker 1: to interviews with Apple Podcasts or whatever podcast platform you

898
00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:01,080
Speaker 1: prefer I'm Matt Miller. I'm on Twitter at Matt Miller

899
00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:04,160
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy three. And I'm fall Sweeney. I'm on Twitter

900
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:07,080
Speaker 1: at pt Sweeney. Before the podcast, you can always catch

901
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:08,680
Speaker 1: us worldwide at Bloomberg Radio