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Speaker 1: Hi guys, and welcome to a new episode of Couch

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Speaker 1: Talks on You Need Therapy Podcast. My name is Kat.

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Speaker 1: I am the host and if you're like what is

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Speaker 1: couch Talks, it is the special bonus episode of You

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Speaker 1: Need Therapy that comes out every single ones day where

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Speaker 1: I answer questions that you guys sent to me and

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Speaker 1: you can send them to Catherine at You Need Therapy

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Speaker 1: podcast dot com. Now. Per usual, this podcast is not

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Speaker 1: a substitute or a form of actual therapy, and I

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Speaker 1: try as hard as I can to steer away from

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Speaker 1: actually giving personal advice on here, although sometimes I might

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Speaker 1: cross those lines maybe, but more generally I like to give,

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Speaker 1: like offer insight and ask questions that might help somebody

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Speaker 1: make the decision that they need to make or come

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Speaker 1: up with the conclusion they to come up with based

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Speaker 1: on the question they sent. But that's just a long

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Speaker 1: winded way of me saying that this podcast is not

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Speaker 1: a replacement or substitution for actual mental health services, but

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Speaker 1: it might actually help you find or be encouraged to

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Speaker 1: go and get therapy or talk about something specific in therapy,

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Speaker 1: so it can definitely help. We're gonna go with the

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Speaker 1: normal format, which is answering one question that I have

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Speaker 1: received from a listener, And as always I like to

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Speaker 1: keep the listeners anonymous, So no matter what question you

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Speaker 1: write in, I will not tell people what your name is,

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Speaker 1: or tell people your email address or anything. That would

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Speaker 1: be really weird if I did that. But this is anonymous.

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Speaker 1: So if you're wondering, why didn't she say, shout out

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Speaker 1: who that was from? Because we like to keep these

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Speaker 1: things on the deal just for confidentiality and safety and

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Speaker 1: all of that. So here is the question and then

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Speaker 1: we will get into it. Hi, Cat, big fan of

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Speaker 1: the podcast and for all that you do for the community.

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Speaker 1: Both my personal practice of therapy and your podcast have

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Speaker 1: helped heal the last two years. I recently found out

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Speaker 1: that my strange father has developed skin cancer again and

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Speaker 1: it possibly has spread to his lungs. My father was

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Speaker 1: severely depressed in the last ten to fifteen years and

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Speaker 1: lashed out at me and my family, causing some deep wounds.

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Speaker 1: We don't know how long he will be with us,

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Speaker 1: or if the cancer has spread. I'm trying to figure

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Speaker 1: out if I should reach out and how I should

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Speaker 1: go about it. I'm also worried about whatever wounds that

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Speaker 1: would be reopened from any interaction. Would really love any

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Speaker 1: advice you have. Again, thank you so much for all

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Speaker 1: you do, and especially loving the Amy and cat Chats.

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Speaker 1: And if you guys are running What's the Amy and

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Speaker 1: cat Chats? That is Amy Brown's podcast for Things with

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Speaker 1: Amy Brown. I co host her Tuesday episode that we

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Speaker 1: have undercover named Amy and cat Chats where we just

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Speaker 1: talked about random things. Anyway, let's get back to this

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Speaker 1: email because this is a this a big one, and

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Speaker 1: before I say anything, I want to start with one.

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Speaker 1: I'm so sorry. I'm sorry that you have the hurt

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Speaker 1: with your dad and those experiences, and also that he's sick,

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Speaker 1: and that this situation is really confusing and tough. And

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Speaker 1: you probably already know. I'm not going to give you

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Speaker 1: direct advice and I can't tell you what's best for you.

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Speaker 1: I can't know that, but I can help offer some

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Speaker 1: perspectives and things to think about and things that might

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Speaker 1: help you choose what you want and what you need

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Speaker 1: to do here. So the first thing that I immediately

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Speaker 1: thought when I read this email was this part of

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Speaker 1: Lori Gottlieb's book Maybe you Should talk to Someone, where

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Speaker 1: she is talking about a past client and this thing

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Speaker 1: called forced forgiveness. And she tells the story of the

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Speaker 1: past client, um, who had a difficult relationship with his father.

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Speaker 1: And I'm going to read that little excerpt from her

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Speaker 1: book just because she tells her story better than I

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Speaker 1: can do. So this what I'm about to read is

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Speaker 1: from the book Maybe You Should Talk to Someone. And

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Speaker 1: I highly recommend that book. It is one of my

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Speaker 1: favorite books I've ever read. She was a past guest

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Speaker 1: last are on the podcast. She's awesome, She's really smart.

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Speaker 1: But this is what I immediately thought about when I

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Speaker 1: read that email, and I want to share it with

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Speaker 1: everybody's listening. So here it is. Forgiveness is a tricky

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Speaker 1: thing in the way that apologies can be. Are you

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Speaker 1: apologizing because it makes you feel better or because it

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Speaker 1: will make the other person feel better? Are you sorry

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Speaker 1: for what you've done? Or are you simply trying to

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Speaker 1: placate the other person who believes you should be sorry

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Speaker 1: for the thing you feel completely justified in having done.

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Speaker 1: Who was the apology for? There's a term we use

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Speaker 1: in therapy, forced forgiveness. Sometimes people feel that in order

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Speaker 1: to get past a trauma, they need to forgive whoever

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Speaker 1: caused the damage, the parent who sexually assaulted them, the

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Speaker 1: burglar who robbed their house, the gang member who killed

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Speaker 1: their son. They're told by well meaning people that until

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Speaker 1: they can forgive, they'll hold onto the anger granted. For

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Speaker 1: some forgiveness can serve as a powerful release. You forgive

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Speaker 1: the person who wronged you without condoning his actions, and

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Speaker 1: it allows you to move on. But too often people

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Speaker 1: feel pressured to forgive and then end up believing that

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Speaker 1: something's wrong with them if they can't quite get there,

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Speaker 1: and that they aren't enlightened enough, or strong enough or

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Speaker 1: compassionate enough. So what I say is this, you can

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Speaker 1: have compassion without forgiving. There are many ways to move on,

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Speaker 1: and pretending to feel a certain way isn't one of them.

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Speaker 1: I once had a client named Dave who had a

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Speaker 1: problematic relationship with his father. His father was, by his account,

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Speaker 1: a bully, demeaning, critical, and full of himself. He had

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Speaker 1: alienated both of his sons from a young age, and

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Speaker 1: he had a distant and contentious relationship with them as adults.

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Speaker 1: When his father was dying, Dave was fifty years old,

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Speaker 1: married with children his own, and he struggled with what

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Speaker 1: to say at his father's funeral, what would ring true?

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Speaker 1: And then he told me that as his father, Lananda's deathbed,

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Speaker 1: he had reached out for his son's hand and said,

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Speaker 1: out of the blue, I wish I had treated you better.

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Speaker 1: I was a prick. Dave was livid. Did his father

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Speaker 1: expect absolution now at the eleventh hour? The time to

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Speaker 1: make repairs? He out was long before you left this earth,

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Speaker 1: not on the eve of your departure. You don't automatically

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Speaker 1: get the gift of closure of forgiveness from a deathbed confession.

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Speaker 1: He couldn't help himself. I don't forgive you, Dave told

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Speaker 1: his dad. He hated himself for saying this, regretted it

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Speaker 1: the second it came out. But after all the pain

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Speaker 1: his father had put him through and all the work

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Speaker 1: he'd done to create good life for himself and his family,

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Speaker 1: he'd be damned if he was going to soothe his

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Speaker 1: father now with a sugary lie. He spent his childhood

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Speaker 1: line about how he felt. Still, Dave wondered what kind

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Speaker 1: of person says this to his dying father. David started

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Speaker 1: to apologize, but his father interrupted him. I understand, he said,

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Speaker 1: if I were you, I wouldn't forgive me either, And

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Speaker 1: then the strangest thing happened. Sitting there holding his father's hand,

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Speaker 1: Dave felt something shift. He felt for the first time

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Speaker 1: in his life, genuine compassion, not forgiveness, but compassion, compassion

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Speaker 1: for the sad, dying man who must have had his

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Speaker 1: own pain. And it was that compassion that allowed Dave

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Speaker 1: to speak authentically at his father's funeral. So what I

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Speaker 1: not saying by reading this this is cat again, by

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Speaker 1: the way, is that you should call your dad and

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Speaker 1: reconcile your relationship. That may not be possible, and it

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Speaker 1: might not be what you need. But I wanted to

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Speaker 1: share this because I think it's so perfectly expresses what

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Speaker 1: we don't hear enough. We don't have to be okay

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Speaker 1: with people, forgive people, let things go, or move on

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Speaker 1: to care for people and to have care for people.

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Speaker 1: And I think about my own life and hearing stories

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Speaker 1: from clients where they express or share things that they've

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Speaker 1: done in their past or maybe even the present that

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Speaker 1: they are ashamed of or working through, and some things

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Speaker 1: that might hit on my personal stuff or experiences or traumas.

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Speaker 1: And often a client will say, I'm afraid to tell

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Speaker 1: you this, because you'll judge me, or you'll look at

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Speaker 1: me differently, or something like that. And what I can

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Speaker 1: offer back to them in those moments is that doesn't

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Speaker 1: really matter how I feel about someone, because I don't

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Speaker 1: have to excuse someone's behavior, or forgive somebody for what

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Speaker 1: they have done in their past or any of that.

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Speaker 1: For me to be able to offer them compassion and

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Speaker 1: for me to be able to help them in the present,

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Speaker 1: I don't have to do those things. They don't have

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Speaker 1: to live within each other. They can be exclusive from

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Speaker 1: each other. And I don't think we hear that enough,

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Speaker 1: especially now in the climate of what our country is

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Speaker 1: moving through. Now, there's a difference in offering compassion and

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Speaker 1: letting go of boundaries. And I don't know the details

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Speaker 1: of this specific situation, but maintaining boundaries might be something

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Speaker 1: you do in order to avoid further emotional damage or pain.

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Speaker 1: And I can't know what is emotionally safe for you

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Speaker 1: or not. Um you can know that. And I believe

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Speaker 1: that if we allow ourselves the space to really ask

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Speaker 1: ourselves what feels right, what feels safe, what feels wise

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Speaker 1: to me when it comes to my story, we actually

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Speaker 1: can know what we want to choose. We just too

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Speaker 1: often have been taught that either we we choose wrong,

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Speaker 1: or that we need approval for our choices, or maybe

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Speaker 1: we've been taught that these are the right choices, and

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Speaker 1: if they don't feel right, then we start to not

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Speaker 1: trust ourselves. But I think in the story that Laurie

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Speaker 1: shares in her book is sharing for me that like

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Speaker 1: this idea of force forgiveness, if you have to do

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Speaker 1: this thing, you should feel this. Then if it doesn't

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Speaker 1: fit right with us, we feel like there's something wrong

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Speaker 1: with us, when maybe it's just the wrong choice and

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Speaker 1: that we get to choose differently and that different people

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Speaker 1: need different things. The good news here is that there

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Speaker 1: are so many ways you can handle this. There are

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Speaker 1: so many things that you can do, and it's not

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Speaker 1: black and white. It doesn't have to be all in.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be zero or one hundred. If

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Speaker 1: you choose to reach out to your dad, you can

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Speaker 1: write an email, you can call him, you can text him,

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Speaker 1: you can set send a handwritten letter. This doesn't mean

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Speaker 1: you will be driving over to his house and sitting

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Speaker 1: next to his bed or taking him to his doctor's appointments.

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Speaker 1: Necessarily so maybe you start with this, what is your motivation?

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Speaker 1: What am I motivated by? Is it a feeling? What

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Speaker 1: feelings come up? Am I motivated by fear, guilt, shame?

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Speaker 1: And what are those feelings actually saying to me? Do

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Speaker 1: I agree with them? Are they leading me to what

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Speaker 1: I need? And am I even listening to them enough

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Speaker 1: to be able to discern what that even would be?

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Speaker 1: Or am I trying to listen to the feedback of

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Speaker 1: people around me or other people's experiences or what I've

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Speaker 1: been told or maybe what a religious organization is telling

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Speaker 1: me or anything like that. Am I actually giving myself

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Speaker 1: the space to listen to myself so I can figure

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Speaker 1: that out? And that's really getting at like the why

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Speaker 1: behind the what right? So the motivation, what is motivating?

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Speaker 1: Why am I wanting to reach out or not reach out?

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Speaker 1: And then like, if I would reach out, what would

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Speaker 1: I say or ask? And what's the safest way to

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Speaker 1: do that? Where I am right now in my life

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Speaker 1: and my relationship with myself, my family and my friends,

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Speaker 1: my dad. So a lot of questions to move through,

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Speaker 1: and you might need to answer those questions with somebody.

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Speaker 1: It might be helpful to sit down with somebody and

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Speaker 1: and say this out loud to them, see what it

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Speaker 1: feels like. And I would recommend doing that with a

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Speaker 1: safe person, and hopefully through a conversation like that, you'll

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Speaker 1: be able to connect with what actually feels really good

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Speaker 1: um when you say it and sit in it. I

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Speaker 1: think another tough thing about this kind of stuff is

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Speaker 1: that we want things to feel like the perfect decision.

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Speaker 1: And I don't think that there is a perfect decision here,

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Speaker 1: because this is a situation that you really shouldn't ever

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Speaker 1: have to be in the first place. It's a really

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Speaker 1: hard um situation and there's not a complete right way

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Speaker 1: to move through it. There is just like the most

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Speaker 1: right way, the most wise way for you to move

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Speaker 1: through it yourself. So I hope that helped. And for

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Speaker 1: anybody listening who like that little part that I read

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Speaker 1: in the book, if you haven't read that book, please

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Speaker 1: read it. It's so freaking good and there's I mean,

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Speaker 1: I I would highlight that whole book if I could,

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Speaker 1: because there is so much goodness in it. So definitely

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Speaker 1: go find that. Maybe you should talk to someone by

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Speaker 1: Lori Gottlieb and Um if you want to hear from her.

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Speaker 1: She was on the podcast last summer and she was

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Speaker 1: really interesting to talk to because she's a therapist as well.

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Speaker 1: So that does it for me. And next week, I

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Speaker 1: guess this will come out on Wednesday. Yeah, next week,

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Speaker 1: I'll be on vacation with my family, so you'll still

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Speaker 1: get an episode on Monday, and you'll still get couch

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Speaker 1: shocks on Wednesday, but as you listen to them, I

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Speaker 1: will be hopefully on the lake, laying in the water,

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Speaker 1: or on about or tubing or doing something fun. So

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Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed the episodes next week while I'm

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Speaker 1: enjoying my life as well, and I hope you have

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Speaker 1: the days you need to have until I get to

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Speaker 1: talk to you guys again. You can follow me on Instagram.

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Speaker 1: Remember my Instagram is now private. You have to request

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Speaker 1: to follow me, but you still can follow me. Um,

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Speaker 1: but the content there is going to be more like

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Speaker 1: my personal content and less based around like just putting

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Speaker 1: mental health stuff and therapy stuff up. If you just

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Speaker 1: want that kind of stuff, then follow the podcast. Although

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Speaker 1: you can follow both, and that is at you need

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Speaker 1: therapy podcast, So you can follow both things, but you

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Speaker 1: need therapy podcast. Instagram is gonna be way more geared

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Speaker 1: towards mental health and therapy and our guests and all

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Speaker 1: of that, and I'll be showing up on that Instagram

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Speaker 1: page more myself, and then my Instagram will be more

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Speaker 1: just like you know, my life and if you are

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Speaker 1: a kind of mine, I'm very sorry you cannot follow

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Speaker 1: my personal account because we have to keep those boundaries.

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Speaker 1: So um, that does it for me. Have all the

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Speaker 1: moments you need to have, and I will be back

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Speaker 1: eventually to talk to you when I get back from vacation.

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Speaker 1: But I will talk to you. I'm on vacation as

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Speaker 1: well because I'm free recording stuff, which I really do anyway.

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Speaker 1: And I don't even know why I needed to tell

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Speaker 1: you that I'm going on vacation. But I'm just going

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Speaker 1: to end this podcast now because this has gone on

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Speaker 1: far too long. That's going to do it. By guys,