WEBVTT - Zainab Salbi: From Under Saddam’s Thumb to Building a Successful Nonprofit 0:00:15.476 --> 0:00:22.676 Pushkin. When I think of this show, I don't imagine 0:00:22.676 --> 0:00:25.076 talking to guests who grew up with a president visiting 0:00:25.156 --> 0:00:28.476 their house. But that was zaneb Salabi's life in Baghdada 0:00:28.596 --> 0:00:32.396 Rock during the early days of Saddam Hussein's presidency. That 0:00:32.516 --> 0:00:36.196 level of familiarity with Saddam brought both privilege and danger. 0:00:36.956 --> 0:00:39.676 He was a ruthless leader, capable of betraying those he 0:00:39.796 --> 0:00:43.196 was close to. Zana, but her parents felt trapped by 0:00:43.236 --> 0:00:47.996 their proximity to power. In our conversation, Zanab talks candidly 0:00:48.236 --> 0:00:51.436 about how this terrifying reality even led her mother to 0:00:51.436 --> 0:00:55.436 attempt suicide. I wanted to talk to Zanab because her 0:00:55.476 --> 0:00:59.636 story is about starting over from the bottom. When she 0:00:59.716 --> 0:01:01.796 left I Rock to live in the US, her life 0:01:01.796 --> 0:01:06.036 of privilege fell away. Then she created a remarkable charity 0:01:06.116 --> 0:01:10.156 to help women survivors of war. The story of herries 0:01:10.276 --> 0:01:15.436 the nonprofit ranks as an immigrant is incredible. This has 0:01:15.476 --> 0:01:18.636 started from the bottom, hard earned success stories from people 0:01:19.076 --> 0:01:26.196 like us. Can you paint a picture for me of 0:01:26.276 --> 0:01:29.596 what bag Dad was like when you grew up there? 0:01:30.916 --> 0:01:35.116 Well, I have great memories. I have beautiful memories. I'll 0:01:35.116 --> 0:01:38.716 start with my family's garden, you know, a beautiful garden. 0:01:39.676 --> 0:01:42.236 My mom would have me pick vegetables and fruits as 0:01:42.276 --> 0:01:47.236 she's cooking. Great school. I you know, all my family, 0:01:48.036 --> 0:01:51.116 as in cousins and uncles and aunts lived in the 0:01:51.196 --> 0:01:55.356 same neighborhood, but not close to each other. But in 0:01:55.436 --> 0:01:59.276 the afternoon, I would as the parents go to their siesta, 0:01:59.396 --> 0:02:04.796 I ride my orange bike and put my collections of 0:02:04.956 --> 0:02:07.676 race cars. I liked race cars when I was a kid, 0:02:07.716 --> 0:02:10.916 and I would back to my to raise with them. 0:02:11.276 --> 0:02:13.036 And I don't know if this gives you a picture 0:02:13.076 --> 0:02:15.396 of it, but it's sort of how I grew up. 0:02:15.556 --> 0:02:20.156 You know, my parents were I call them the yuppies 0:02:20.356 --> 0:02:23.916 of that time of the city, and you know, loved 0:02:24.276 --> 0:02:29.196 dancing and partying. And you know that dancing and partying 0:02:29.236 --> 0:02:34.276 actually was a frequent occurrence in my home. Now, mind you, 0:02:34.316 --> 0:02:37.276 as I, as I even hear myself say it, I 0:02:37.316 --> 0:02:40.996 obviously grew up in a middle class, a primary class family, 0:02:41.756 --> 0:02:46.076 and I do not want that reality to also assume 0:02:46.276 --> 0:02:49.636 that everyone in Iraq grew up like this. I actually 0:02:49.676 --> 0:02:52.196 write about it in my book. We also had a 0:02:53.436 --> 0:02:56.676 living maid who had you know, a very different reality. 0:02:56.956 --> 0:03:01.676 You know, her family lived in two mudrooms and six children, 0:03:01.796 --> 0:03:06.236 you know, yeah, and six children, you know, So it's 0:03:06.436 --> 0:03:10.516 you know, so not everyone had that reality. But nevertheless, 0:03:10.596 --> 0:03:13.756 her parents came from the village and were given land 0:03:13.876 --> 0:03:18.556 by the government for free to settle in. So, you know, 0:03:18.596 --> 0:03:21.316 Iraq was at the seventies, in the seventies when I 0:03:21.356 --> 0:03:24.996 grew up, was had already gone through so many turmoils, 0:03:25.596 --> 0:03:29.836 but had also gone through some progress, depends on who 0:03:29.836 --> 0:03:33.796 you're talking about in political turmoils, but some progress in 0:03:33.876 --> 0:03:38.316 terms of women's rights and that were actually reformed nineteen 0:03:38.356 --> 0:03:44.116 fifty eight, for example. But still there was joy. Let's 0:03:44.116 --> 0:03:46.636 say it this way, there was joy in my memory 0:03:46.756 --> 0:03:52.356 of the seventies. In the eighties, that joy transformed into fear. 0:03:53.156 --> 0:03:55.956 That is, once a dam took over, you know, becoming 0:03:55.996 --> 0:03:59.676 the president. That is when we also were consumed by 0:03:59.676 --> 0:04:03.916 the Iran Iraq War, and the Bathist Party was stronger 0:04:03.956 --> 0:04:06.996 than ever at that time. And the joy of the 0:04:07.076 --> 0:04:10.076 parties and the dancing that I described in the seventies 0:04:10.116 --> 0:04:13.636 I defined my life in the seventies was really transformed 0:04:13.636 --> 0:04:16.396 into christs and fears and whispers. 0:04:16.716 --> 0:04:19.436 Yeah, the Baptist Party I just wanted just for people 0:04:19.436 --> 0:04:21.876 who aren't super familiar with the history. And that was 0:04:21.876 --> 0:04:25.076 Saddam Hussein's party. That was the party he was head of. 0:04:25.956 --> 0:04:30.636 Yes, yeah, it was a totalitarian party, and it was 0:04:30.716 --> 0:04:33.036 very much I grew up like a nineteen eighty four 0:04:33.116 --> 0:04:38.876 George Orwell's description of a totalitarian country, which is how 0:04:39.196 --> 0:04:41.596 the country transformed into the eighties into. 0:04:41.316 --> 0:04:45.716 That or corresponds with your reality of the eighties quite 0:04:45.836 --> 0:04:46.476 quite nicely. 0:04:46.756 --> 0:04:50.076 Clearly when I watched the movie and I was like, oh, 0:04:50.196 --> 0:04:52.876 it's exactly how I grew up. The only difference is colors. 0:04:53.156 --> 0:04:55.996 You know. The movie was very dark colors, Soviet colors 0:04:56.076 --> 0:04:57.916 kind of thing, and I grew up in colors. 0:04:58.036 --> 0:04:58.276 You know. 0:04:59.796 --> 0:05:02.996 Yeah, the desert has vibrant colors. You know. So but 0:05:03.236 --> 0:05:05.356 very much that's how I grew up in the eighties, 0:05:05.356 --> 0:05:07.196 and that I was teenager at that time. 0:05:07.796 --> 0:05:14.116 Your father was Saddam's personal pilot. How was that relationship 0:05:14.156 --> 0:05:17.876 forged and what did that mean for your thinking about 0:05:18.756 --> 0:05:19.356 his rule? 0:05:20.756 --> 0:05:25.636 Well, Saddam, beyond the profession of my father who he 0:05:25.756 --> 0:05:27.716 was his personal pilot, he was also the head of 0:05:27.796 --> 0:05:31.596 civil aviation Iraq, Saddam chose my father and my mother 0:05:31.756 --> 0:05:35.716 to be his friends, his social friends. They were one 0:05:35.756 --> 0:05:39.036 of three family members who he chose to be his 0:05:39.076 --> 0:05:44.796 social friends. But in essence they were not political people. 0:05:44.996 --> 0:05:47.956 They had no political ambition. My father was a commercial pilot, 0:05:47.996 --> 0:05:50.676 my mother was a biology teacher, and they were not 0:05:50.756 --> 0:05:53.956 a threat to him politically. But they had access to 0:05:53.996 --> 0:05:57.276 what he didn't have access to, which is what does 0:05:57.316 --> 0:05:59.596 it mean to live in an upper midt class family, 0:05:59.716 --> 0:06:04.636 you know, be exposed to Western music, Western etiquette, English language, 0:06:05.316 --> 0:06:07.356 Western close, if you may so. 0:06:07.596 --> 0:06:11.316 He felt they had a sophistical that he lacked. 0:06:11.556 --> 0:06:14.276 And he did like that. So then grew up in 0:06:14.316 --> 0:06:16.956 a very tough life. He grew up in a small village. 0:06:17.196 --> 0:06:20.636 His stepfather made him work and refused to take him 0:06:20.676 --> 0:06:22.996 to school. He beat him up until the age of 0:06:23.076 --> 0:06:26.516 nine when he escaped from his stepfather and to the capital. 0:06:27.036 --> 0:06:28.996 And that was his first time to go to school 0:06:29.076 --> 0:06:31.676 at the age of nine. Right, So for him, he 0:06:31.756 --> 0:06:34.756 always you know, there was a class difference, you know, 0:06:36.196 --> 0:06:39.236 and while he became a political figure and mobilized all 0:06:39.276 --> 0:06:41.636 of that, he did not have access to this particular 0:06:41.676 --> 0:06:46.636 sozooeconomic background which my family provided. And so it was 0:06:47.036 --> 0:06:50.476 the job was just the job. The father, you know, 0:06:50.596 --> 0:06:53.356 the pilot of the president. It was the friendship that 0:06:53.476 --> 0:06:57.756 really was a prison in my family's home, because just 0:06:57.796 --> 0:07:00.756 because you are a friend of the dictator, it didn't 0:07:00.796 --> 0:07:05.756 mean that you are safe from his grip or his fear, 0:07:05.876 --> 0:07:10.716 or his killing, or his torture or his punishment generally, 0:07:10.916 --> 0:07:13.876 and so it just meant that we were closer to danger. 0:07:14.156 --> 0:07:18.156 And the relationship was kept secret from me and as 0:07:18.196 --> 0:07:22.836 a child until the day he came to our home 0:07:23.196 --> 0:07:27.476 in a very public way that was on the national news. 0:07:26.956 --> 0:07:30.076 And I was about eleven years old, and that's when 0:07:30.116 --> 0:07:33.796 I realized, oh, oh, my parents are friends with a 0:07:33.836 --> 0:07:36.116 president whose picture is in my classroom, you know. 0:07:36.796 --> 0:07:39.556 And did you have any feelings about him at that point? 0:07:39.596 --> 0:07:42.116 Had you formed an idea about him? 0:07:42.756 --> 0:07:45.676 No, as a child, you don't. As a child, you 0:07:45.716 --> 0:07:49.236 only see your parents and how they are reacting. And 0:07:49.316 --> 0:07:53.196 so I saw my parents and you know, crying, my 0:07:53.316 --> 0:07:59.996 mom crying hysterically throughout the eighties, my mom attempting suicide 0:08:00.236 --> 0:08:04.116 over and over and over again. Her friends who would 0:08:04.156 --> 0:08:07.356 gather in the seventies and dance and love were crying. 0:08:07.716 --> 0:08:12.076 And so you know that you're seeing these things, You're 0:08:12.076 --> 0:08:15.236 seeing the emotions when we are with him. You see 0:08:15.276 --> 0:08:18.516 my parents being very polite. Our instructions was to always 0:08:18.556 --> 0:08:21.316 smile when he smiled, to cry when he cried. But 0:08:21.396 --> 0:08:24.276 you also see them, you know, you know when they're 0:08:24.316 --> 0:08:27.756 scared of him. Is as a child in the surrounding, 0:08:28.356 --> 0:08:32.556 and so so you grew up with that fear because 0:08:32.596 --> 0:08:36.916 your parents are afraid, you know, and you see it 0:08:36.956 --> 0:08:39.316 more and more and more and more and more, And 0:08:39.356 --> 0:08:43.236 to be honest, it's I had no It's almost like 0:08:43.276 --> 0:08:48.036 an internalized drama that only in later years of my 0:08:48.156 --> 0:08:52.076 life as I settle an American and stabilize myself an American, 0:08:52.196 --> 0:08:54.876 all of that and I start working on myself, did 0:08:54.916 --> 0:08:58.876 I realize how this is there these moments that are 0:08:59.036 --> 0:09:02.396 scary and traumatizing and sort of I internalize it and 0:09:03.356 --> 0:09:05.876 did not express it until much later in life, where 0:09:06.356 --> 0:09:09.676 I was able to process it and understand, Oh, that 0:09:09.836 --> 0:09:13.436 was actually a very scary situation I was growing up in, 0:09:13.716 --> 0:09:16.356 and a lot of it. You know. We were surrounded 0:09:16.356 --> 0:09:22.036 by soldiers, Our homes were monitored, our bedrooms were monitored. 0:09:22.596 --> 0:09:24.796 I no longer had friends, you know, I was not 0:09:24.876 --> 0:09:28.196 allowed to have just regular friends, and everything about our 0:09:28.316 --> 0:09:33.796 life was taken over by the dictator, and that's how 0:09:34.076 --> 0:09:34.596 life was. 0:09:36.196 --> 0:09:40.196 And you know, you describe your parents' relationship with him, 0:09:40.196 --> 0:09:42.996 I mean he chose them as friends, and you sort 0:09:42.996 --> 0:09:45.636 of describe that relationship then as sort of like in 0:09:45.676 --> 0:09:48.476 a sense like a prison for your parents, for your 0:09:48.476 --> 0:09:52.796 family ultimately for you and that friendship, that closeness, that 0:09:52.876 --> 0:09:55.756 proximity you had to sit down. A lot of people 0:09:55.836 --> 0:09:57.636 might think that made you safe, but it's ultimately what 0:09:58.436 --> 0:10:00.916 you know, drove your mom to send you to the 0:10:00.996 --> 0:10:04.036 United States a way to the United States, right, yeah. 0:10:04.116 --> 0:10:08.076 I mean I my mom who would cry throughout my teenage. 0:10:08.156 --> 0:10:11.396 I mean she says, we are living in a prison. 0:10:12.156 --> 0:10:16.436 I can't prove to people that I'm surrounded with prison bars, 0:10:17.156 --> 0:10:20.316 but I see the prison bars. And that was like 0:10:20.836 --> 0:10:23.156 she would say it over and over again, you know, 0:10:23.876 --> 0:10:27.636 And so it was literally prison because also the you know, 0:10:29.716 --> 0:10:32.716 everyone in the country was afraid of us because we 0:10:32.996 --> 0:10:37.556 are his friends. But we are afraid of him because 0:10:37.716 --> 0:10:41.196 he killed his best friends. And of course we're afraid 0:10:41.196 --> 0:10:43.436 of the people because they're afraid of us and think 0:10:43.476 --> 0:10:45.516 that we are like him, but we are not, like 0:10:45.756 --> 0:10:48.716 you know, we're not of his people either. So the 0:10:48.796 --> 0:10:51.556 reason I called my memoir between two worlds because we 0:10:51.556 --> 0:10:56.036 were stuck between two wolves. We're neither here nor there. Nevertheless, 0:10:56.076 --> 0:10:58.796 you know, you grew up in this. You know, you 0:10:58.916 --> 0:11:01.036 get used to it, right, I mean your fear, you're 0:11:01.076 --> 0:11:03.556 all of that, but you you get used to it 0:11:04.036 --> 0:11:07.556 until and you think that this is life, right until 0:11:07.596 --> 0:11:10.396 the day where my mom asked me to accept the 0:11:10.396 --> 0:11:14.236 marriage proposal from a guy I did not know in America. 0:11:15.076 --> 0:11:17.436 And up until that time, you know, you resisted your 0:11:17.476 --> 0:11:19.516 own ways. You know, I fell in love with a rebel, 0:11:19.716 --> 0:11:21.556 and I thought he's I'm going to like fell in 0:11:21.556 --> 0:11:23.876 love with a revolutionary guy, and he's going to help 0:11:23.916 --> 0:11:26.836 me escape. And you have all these fantasies of how 0:11:26.836 --> 0:11:29.836 you're going to escape the palace, you know, compound if 0:11:29.876 --> 0:11:34.316 you may, and they're all like failed teenage attempts to 0:11:34.516 --> 0:11:38.756 like rebel until my mom came and asked me to 0:11:38.836 --> 0:11:41.716 accept this marriage proposal. Now, this was a very liberal family. 0:11:41.916 --> 0:11:44.236 I was never I was always to choose whatever I 0:11:44.276 --> 0:11:47.716 wanted to do in life. I was always outspoken. I 0:11:47.796 --> 0:11:50.076 never like whatever. My mom told me to always be 0:11:50.196 --> 0:11:53.156 whoever I want to be. And she was the first 0:11:53.156 --> 0:11:56.196 person who believed that I would dedicate my life to 0:11:56.236 --> 0:12:00.796 women's rights as I grew older. But nevertheless she was 0:12:00.876 --> 0:12:03.796 asking me and begging me and crying, saying, please accept 0:12:03.796 --> 0:12:09.356 this marriage proposal, which I ultimately did, not because I 0:12:09.396 --> 0:12:12.316 was forced, but because my mom was crying. 0:12:12.396 --> 0:12:14.676 And in her mind, and I imagine in your mind, 0:12:15.196 --> 0:12:17.156 it wasn't a matter of women's rights. It was simply, 0:12:17.236 --> 0:12:20.196 probably to her, a matter of survival. I want my 0:12:20.316 --> 0:12:23.516 daughter to get out of your old right. 0:12:23.516 --> 0:12:26.236 You didn't I didn't know. You know, I was nineteen 0:12:26.316 --> 0:12:29.836 years old. There was silence. We don't talk about things 0:12:29.876 --> 0:12:33.276 because remember our house was bugged, and so I didn't know. 0:12:33.996 --> 0:12:36.076 And all what I was trying to do is, you know, 0:12:36.116 --> 0:12:39.556 these are unarticulated feelings because we are living in it 0:12:39.636 --> 0:12:42.236 and we're afraid to express it. You know, I was 0:12:42.276 --> 0:12:46.356 afraid to say the words Saddam Hussein until he was 0:12:46.516 --> 0:12:49.196 arrested and in prison. And at that time, I had 0:12:49.196 --> 0:12:52.196 been in America for twenty years or I don't know, 0:12:52.236 --> 0:12:55.396 something like fifteen years, and I was still afraid to 0:12:55.476 --> 0:12:58.876 say to utter his name while I am in America 0:12:58.876 --> 0:13:01.836 because you sort of you have like this fear that 0:13:01.916 --> 0:13:03.996 you're like, he's always going to be there, you know, 0:13:04.116 --> 0:13:09.796 and so it's unarticulated, but I said yes because she's 0:13:09.876 --> 0:13:11.876 my mom and I didn't want her to cry. And 0:13:12.396 --> 0:13:14.276 I told you I had tried to rebel in my 0:13:14.356 --> 0:13:18.036 own way by falling in love with revolutionary guys who 0:13:18.476 --> 0:13:20.516 ended up only wanting to be closer to him and 0:13:20.836 --> 0:13:24.396 the privilege she provided. So I said yes, And this 0:13:24.476 --> 0:13:29.116 is how I came to America. And my parents returned 0:13:29.156 --> 0:13:32.956 after the marriage immediately and sat down invaded Kuwait within 0:13:32.996 --> 0:13:35.916 a month of my arrival to the States. And it 0:13:36.036 --> 0:13:39.236 led to me not seeing my family for nine years 0:13:39.476 --> 0:13:43.076 and being an abusive marriage to the arranged marriage for 0:13:43.156 --> 0:13:46.956 three months. And I escaped from him and escaped with 0:13:47.316 --> 0:13:50.996 four hundred dollars in my pockets, two suitcase full of 0:13:51.036 --> 0:13:55.036 designer clothes because you know, we were affluent in back 0:13:55.076 --> 0:13:59.756 home and I was a new bride, but designers close 0:14:00.476 --> 0:14:02.756 do not pay anything, right, you know, I had to 0:14:02.836 --> 0:14:06.876 like go to the immigration office. At that time, it 0:14:06.996 --> 0:14:09.676 was called the I S. I was just turning twenty 0:14:10.036 --> 0:14:13.476 and Iraq was already the blacklisted, you know, it was 0:14:13.996 --> 0:14:15.916 you know, the country to be feared, you know at 0:14:15.916 --> 0:14:17.716 that time in nineteen ninety. 0:14:17.596 --> 0:14:20.196 Right, I mean early in the nineties, Iraq goes into 0:14:20.236 --> 0:14:22.516 Kuwait and the Persian Gulf War starts, and so there's 0:14:22.516 --> 0:14:26.196 all this instability happening. I just want to make sure 0:14:26.236 --> 0:14:29.476 that backdrop is solidified to people's minds. 0:14:29.676 --> 0:14:33.356 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And basically I leave to America June fifteenth, 0:14:33.516 --> 0:14:39.676 nineteen ninety and August second, Iraq invades Kuwait, right, And 0:14:40.476 --> 0:14:42.876 so a month and a half after I arrived to 0:14:42.956 --> 0:14:46.316 the States, I escaped from my then husband, you know, 0:14:46.356 --> 0:14:50.596 in September, and the first Gulf War starts in January 0:14:50.676 --> 0:14:54.876 of that year. And all I can tell you is, 0:14:55.076 --> 0:14:57.836 you know, so there is this backdrop, right, and Iraq 0:14:57.956 --> 0:14:58.836 is the bad guy. 0:14:58.996 --> 0:14:59.236 You know. 0:14:59.316 --> 0:15:01.676 And so at that time when I tell people I'm 0:15:01.716 --> 0:15:04.276 from Iraq, you know, and I had like this heavy 0:15:04.356 --> 0:15:07.116 accent and all of that. And there are two kinds 0:15:07.156 --> 0:15:09.716 of reactions I got in America. Either pople taking a 0:15:09.716 --> 0:15:12.316 step back thinking that I am a terrorist, you know, 0:15:12.356 --> 0:15:15.356 I'm going to kill them, or people hugging me and 0:15:15.396 --> 0:15:17.796 saying we're really sorry for what's happening to your country. 0:15:17.876 --> 0:15:21.196 And I got both reactions in truth, and if I 0:15:21.236 --> 0:15:23.236 am to count my blessing, I would say I got 0:15:23.276 --> 0:15:25.356 more welcome and more, you know, like when I told 0:15:25.396 --> 0:15:28.036 you I went to the I ins and with my 0:15:28.516 --> 0:15:32.116 return ticket as a tourist because I didn't stay long 0:15:32.236 --> 0:15:36.076 enough in the marriage to transfer whatever my paper legally right, 0:15:36.676 --> 0:15:39.516 And so I said, you tell me, I'm coming to 0:15:39.556 --> 0:15:42.556 the bee's mouth basically, you know, you tell me. This 0:15:42.636 --> 0:15:45.756 is my story, this is my ticket, this is my passport. 0:15:46.236 --> 0:15:48.636 I don't know what to do, but I need to survive, 0:15:48.716 --> 0:15:51.596 and you tell me what to do. And I left 0:15:51.676 --> 0:15:55.916 from that office, and it was I I wish I 0:15:55.996 --> 0:15:57.916 know the woman. I can describe it to her, I 0:15:57.916 --> 0:16:00.556 can even paint her, but I don't know who she is, 0:16:00.596 --> 0:16:04.316 an African American woman in the AS office. And she 0:16:04.436 --> 0:16:07.196 took me and two hours later gave me a work 0:16:07.236 --> 0:16:10.516 permit and to stay in the country and work. And 0:16:10.596 --> 0:16:14.516 that's how I end up staying in the country. And eventually, 0:16:15.396 --> 0:16:18.196 you know whatever, eventually I stand on my own feet 0:16:18.276 --> 0:16:19.876 and the rest is history. 0:16:21.636 --> 0:16:24.396 After the break, Zaynab tells us about the joy of 0:16:24.436 --> 0:16:28.956 being able to speak freely about injustices without fear and 0:16:29.036 --> 0:16:34.356 starting her nonprofit organization, Women for Women International, and just 0:16:34.396 --> 0:16:36.716 a quick note. In the second part of this interview, 0:16:36.876 --> 0:16:40.436 Zanab also talks about some of the atrocities women suffered 0:16:40.476 --> 0:16:56.716 during war, including sexual violence. In nineteen ninety three, you 0:16:56.876 --> 0:17:02.596 start Women for Women International. This was sparked mostly as 0:17:02.596 --> 0:17:06.276 I understand by your observations of what was happening during 0:17:06.316 --> 0:17:10.116 the Bosnian War. Explain to me when you became aware 0:17:10.156 --> 0:17:12.236 of what was happening during the Bosnian War. 0:17:13.236 --> 0:17:15.996 So you have this kid, imagine me, I mean the 0:17:16.116 --> 0:17:21.316 kid from Iraq, right, who grew up knowing about injustices. 0:17:21.436 --> 0:17:24.356 And the thing is I wasn't oblivious about the injustices 0:17:24.396 --> 0:17:27.556 in Iraq. I just couldn't say anything about them because 0:17:28.156 --> 0:17:31.676 you know you're in danger, endangering your family's survival if 0:17:31.716 --> 0:17:34.876 you say anything anyway. And then it was the first 0:17:34.916 --> 0:17:38.156 time I noticed another war, right, And this was in 0:17:38.196 --> 0:17:42.076 Bossi and Hertzegobina, as you said, Fromer Yugoslavia. And there 0:17:42.076 --> 0:17:44.596 were rape camps in that war. The women were given 0:17:44.676 --> 0:17:47.436 numbers and when their numbers were called, they had to 0:17:47.476 --> 0:17:49.836 go to the other room and get gang raped. There 0:17:49.836 --> 0:17:54.436 were concentration camps, mostly of Muslim population and some Crowads 0:17:54.436 --> 0:17:58.236 as well, some Catholics as well. What I do know 0:17:58.636 --> 0:18:03.756 is that I was like a fierceness in me rose 0:18:03.836 --> 0:18:07.076 because because this time I was living in a country 0:18:07.116 --> 0:18:10.556 that provided me freedom of expression, right that you can 0:18:10.636 --> 0:18:13.236 speak in here and not go to prison or get killed, 0:18:13.636 --> 0:18:18.996 at least for me. Now, America is a lot of 0:18:19.956 --> 0:18:24.756 dark history, wow and shocking way as an immigrant, right 0:18:24.876 --> 0:18:25.036 you know. 0:18:25.156 --> 0:18:28.316 But yes, yes, everyone's experience of that is different. But 0:18:28.396 --> 0:18:31.116 certainly coming from where you're coming from, which was you 0:18:31.156 --> 0:18:34.676 can't even speak freely amongst your family and your own house, 0:18:35.036 --> 0:18:38.396 your experience of the freedom here is like profound. 0:18:38.636 --> 0:18:41.596 You know, it still is, by the way, it still is. 0:18:41.716 --> 0:18:44.036 I mean when I go and then you when I 0:18:44.076 --> 0:18:47.676 whatever make any public commentary on anything, you know, and 0:18:47.756 --> 0:18:51.276 I speak my truth absolutely right, and people like just 0:18:51.356 --> 0:18:55.636 like okay. I was like, wow, the accept that I'm 0:18:55.676 --> 0:18:59.356 just saying my truth is unbelievable. I don't get punished 0:18:59.356 --> 0:19:02.116 for that, you know. So it's still like for me, 0:19:02.436 --> 0:19:05.956 freedom is so delicious. It's like chocolate, you know, to 0:19:06.076 --> 0:19:08.836 like every time I speak my truth. But anyway, so 0:19:09.516 --> 0:19:12.076 you know, unlike Iraq, where I couldn't do anything about it, 0:19:12.116 --> 0:19:14.716 in here, I could. So I demonstrated. I was twenty 0:19:14.716 --> 0:19:17.116 two years old kid, right, So I went to demonstrations 0:19:17.116 --> 0:19:19.076 and all of that, and frankly, after a while, I 0:19:19.116 --> 0:19:22.636 still have that attitude. It's like, Okay, demonstrations are good, 0:19:22.636 --> 0:19:25.716 but they're not helping the people in there. And I 0:19:25.756 --> 0:19:28.476 wanted to help the people in there. And at that time, 0:19:28.516 --> 0:19:33.236 I was newly remarried to a wonderful, wonderful man. I'm 0:19:33.316 --> 0:19:39.116 just Atallah, and I wanted to do something about basically Bosnia, 0:19:39.236 --> 0:19:42.756 and we were just newly new kids, just married. All 0:19:42.756 --> 0:19:45.396 of our friends laughed at us, said, you know, go 0:19:45.436 --> 0:19:47.716 get a job, buy a house, buy a car. What 0:19:47.756 --> 0:19:51.556 are you doing creating this organization Women for Women to 0:19:51.596 --> 0:19:54.156 help women survivors of force in countries you don't even 0:19:54.196 --> 0:19:57.236 know about, you know, Like I didn't know anything about Bosnia. 0:19:57.396 --> 0:20:01.076 But I just honestly, I can't tell you the passion 0:20:01.436 --> 0:20:04.676 I had and still have, you know, And because I 0:20:04.716 --> 0:20:09.036 still believe and my upbringing impacted that right in Iraq 0:20:09.516 --> 0:20:13.516 that one we see injustice and look the other way 0:20:13.596 --> 0:20:21.196 about and avoid it, we invariably legitimize it and allow 0:20:21.276 --> 0:20:25.156 for the corruption of our own values. Even in Iraq. 0:20:25.196 --> 0:20:27.436 I mean, I was a kid, so I can't judge myself, 0:20:27.636 --> 0:20:30.556 you know, But you know, there are people who spoke 0:20:30.596 --> 0:20:33.836 about the injustice and paid for their lives for that. 0:20:34.236 --> 0:20:38.236 But they were consistent in their values right and here 0:20:38.676 --> 0:20:42.116 while I lived in America, I had to I still 0:20:42.196 --> 0:20:46.716 have to speak about injustices. But if I avoid doing 0:20:46.916 --> 0:20:50.396 or saying something about it, then I'm legitimizing it. So 0:20:50.436 --> 0:20:52.916 it came from that value that as like I have 0:20:52.996 --> 0:20:55.516 to do something. I didn't have money, I didn't have 0:20:55.556 --> 0:20:58.956 work experience, I didn't have anything, but I did have 0:20:58.996 --> 0:21:00.236 that belief and conviction. 0:21:00.436 --> 0:21:02.196 And I want to ask you about that because, I mean, 0:21:02.236 --> 0:21:05.716 you grew up in this fairly affluent especially considering some 0:21:05.756 --> 0:21:08.636 of your compatriots in the country, sort of this affluent environment. 0:21:09.316 --> 0:21:12.236 How was it for you to be here with essentially 0:21:12.276 --> 0:21:14.636 nothing and none of the comforts you were used to? 0:21:15.596 --> 0:21:17.916 Yeah, I had a lot of comfort. What was day 0:21:17.956 --> 0:21:18.436 to day like? 0:21:18.516 --> 0:21:21.076 But I mean, really was what was day to day like? 0:21:21.156 --> 0:21:24.196 When you know? 0:21:24.516 --> 0:21:26.756 I mean, there's some of it funny. You know. My 0:21:26.876 --> 0:21:28.876 mother told me never to learn how to cook a 0:21:28.996 --> 0:21:31.556 clean because no man should expect me to know that 0:21:31.716 --> 0:21:35.116 just because I'm a woman. So I was like, shit, 0:21:35.196 --> 0:21:37.156 excuse my language was like I don't know how to 0:21:37.196 --> 0:21:39.716 cook and clean, and so I had to learn how 0:21:39.756 --> 0:21:44.316 to cook and clean to start with. You know, I 0:21:44.516 --> 0:21:49.116 was so convicted. I became my life, became the activist everything. 0:21:49.196 --> 0:21:51.956 It was like my time to like speak up against 0:21:51.956 --> 0:21:54.996 not only the injustices in Bosnia, about all the injustices 0:21:55.036 --> 0:21:58.636 that I faced in the world right. And I had 0:21:58.716 --> 0:22:02.476 Like I remember in nineteen ninety five, I was I 0:22:02.516 --> 0:22:06.516 got an award from President Clinton for being one of 0:22:06.556 --> 0:22:09.116 the six ye Terrans in America. I was twenty five 0:22:09.316 --> 0:22:12.596 years old, kid, you know, who are doing something for Bosnia? 0:22:12.636 --> 0:22:15.196 And I'm like, enter the White House with a hole 0:22:15.356 --> 0:22:18.596 in my shoes, you know, a hole in my designer 0:22:18.676 --> 0:22:21.316 shoes that I came with from Iraq, you know, but 0:22:21.436 --> 0:22:24.156 a hole in my shoes. It didn't bother me. I 0:22:24.196 --> 0:22:26.636 gotta tell you, it really didn't bother me. You know. 0:22:26.636 --> 0:22:30.276 I was. I was just I was so as I said, 0:22:30.276 --> 0:22:35.236 the freedom of speaking and acting and living my truth continues. 0:22:35.276 --> 0:22:39.316 And then particularly was so exciting for me that it 0:22:39.356 --> 0:22:41.276 didn't bother me that I didn't have money. 0:22:41.356 --> 0:22:45.716 But even beyond that, then you've started an organization, how 0:22:45.756 --> 0:22:49.116 do you know where to start? Like, how do you 0:22:49.196 --> 0:22:51.636 know where to get funds? To get money to set 0:22:51.636 --> 0:22:54.236 the sell like, can you walk me through that first year? 0:22:54.316 --> 0:22:58.636 And I don't know. There were no internets at that time, man, 0:22:58.756 --> 0:22:59.596 there was nothing. 0:23:00.156 --> 0:23:02.236 What was the first thing, What was the first few 0:23:02.276 --> 0:23:03.836 moves you made? Who'd you go talk? 0:23:03.916 --> 0:23:08.916 I tell you. I called every organization on the Yellow Pages, 0:23:09.156 --> 0:23:11.916 which I don't think they are used anymore, on every 0:23:11.956 --> 0:23:15.956 woman's organization, asking them what they're doing for Bosnia, and 0:23:16.036 --> 0:23:18.596 everyone said, ah, come after six months, come out over 0:23:18.556 --> 0:23:20.756 a year or whatever, We're not doing anything. And then 0:23:20.836 --> 0:23:23.556 one of them said, you know what, we got the 0:23:23.636 --> 0:23:26.596 exact same call from the Unitarian Church. So since you 0:23:26.876 --> 0:23:29.076 were asking about the same why don't you connect with 0:23:29.116 --> 0:23:32.996 them and see if there's something there. So at that 0:23:33.196 --> 0:23:36.276