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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

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Speaker 2: my name is Noel.

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Speaker 3: They called me Ben. We're joined as always with our

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Speaker 3: super producer Paul Michig, control decand most importantly, you are here.

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Speaker 3: And that makes this the stuff they don't want you

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Speaker 3: to know. Today's conversation is much more than a spoonful

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Speaker 3: of sugar. But we should start out by saying, I know,

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Speaker 3: I know, no hell up behind that sugar is amazing

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Speaker 3: and a lot of the stuff about sugar that people

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Speaker 3: don't know is frankly terrified. We've all been there. Every

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Speaker 3: few months, it seems, for instance, a study comes out

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Speaker 3: arguing for or against some aspect of sugar consumption, usually

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Speaker 3: focused on a person's individual health. And in the US,

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Speaker 3: as many people have pointed out, it seems like sugar

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Speaker 3: is in almost everything, and it's a multi bought, billion

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Speaker 3: dollar industry. It's fraught with injustice and corruption. We're learning

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Speaker 3: this today in a conversation with an expert in this

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Speaker 3: disturbing story, the journalist, the author, the creator of the

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Speaker 3: new podcast Big Sugar, as well as a podcast called

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Speaker 3: Freeway Phantom Celeste Headley. Celeste, thank you so much for

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Speaker 3: joining us today.

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Speaker 4: My pleasure. It's good to be here.

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Speaker 2: Just so you know, Celestie, I think we've had this

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Speaker 2: conversation before, but for the three hosts of this podcast,

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Speaker 2: we listen to a lot of MPR, especially back in

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Speaker 2: the day and when we were working in Buckhead, and

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Speaker 2: we listened to you a lot. So it's very cool

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Speaker 2: to have you with us.

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Speaker 4: Oh thanks, that's really kind.

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Speaker 5: It's funny. Actually, my background is with public radio, with

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Speaker 5: Georgia Public Broadcasting, and I don't know if we ever

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Speaker 5: interfaced directly, but I worked with a lot of the

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Speaker 5: same folks that you did back in the day, and

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Speaker 5: I think we may have like shared a news call

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Speaker 5: once an hour.

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Speaker 2: I go.

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Speaker 4: So broadcasting is a is a deceptively small little this

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Speaker 4: is a very I try to tell people who are

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Speaker 4: just coming into it, like straight out of college, you know,

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Speaker 4: don't be mean to people because you are going to

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Speaker 4: be seeing them again and again and again.

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Speaker 3: So let's get into it. As we said, you are

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Speaker 3: a veteran journalist, the prolific author. You have hosted EP

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Speaker 3: multiple present prestigious programs like What Retro Report, on PPS

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Speaker 3: on Second Thought, of course The Takeaway, and more so

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Speaker 3: for any fellow conspiracy realist tuning in saying, hey, that's

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Speaker 3: a very familiar voice. Now there's a reason you're feeling that.

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Speaker 3: So you've you've written books like we Need to Talk,

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Speaker 3: how to have conversations that matter, do Nothing, and of

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Speaker 3: course speaking of rape, why everybody needs to talk about

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Speaker 3: racism and how to do it. These are deep dives

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Speaker 3: into the nature of communication and connection, and that's something

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Speaker 3: maybe we start there because that's something that stands out

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Speaker 3: to me, at least in Big Sugar, because you're diving

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Speaker 3: deep into the history and the troubling present of the

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Speaker 3: sugar industry. You're examining aspects of it that honestly, sugar

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Speaker 3: companies probably don't want the public to know. But there's

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Speaker 3: a humanness to it, you know, there's it's so easy

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Speaker 3: to for our minds to gloss over when we hear

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Speaker 3: abstract stats and numbers, but this show is very personal

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Speaker 3: and it's very human, which is something I love about it.

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Speaker 3: So maybe we started that human moment. Was there something

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Speaker 3: that initially inspired your journey into the disturbing side of

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Speaker 3: this industry? Like you mentioned you went sugar free for

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Speaker 3: a time. You also said, you know, that's where you

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Speaker 3: learn sugar is and everything. But I'm just wondering, was

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Speaker 3: there like an AHA moment or an epiphany?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? I think.

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Speaker 2: So.

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Speaker 4: Look, you know, as you said, I've been a journalist

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Speaker 4: for a long time, and I get that the average

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Speaker 4: person does not have the time to follow all the

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Speaker 4: stories that they technically should, right Like everybody doesn't have

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Speaker 4: the time to know everything about all the chemicals that

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Speaker 4: are in all of our foods or all of the

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Speaker 4: industries that affect us every day. I totally understand that.

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Speaker 4: But every once in a while, things bubble up and

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Speaker 4: become so urgent and important that it's time to pay attention.

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Speaker 4: And sugar is one of those, like it's time and

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Speaker 4: for me, that's the thing that sort of came across

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Speaker 4: my desk, Like I began when we started doing the

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Speaker 4: interviews for this, and I started listening to the stories

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Speaker 4: of these cutters, these Jamaican cutters who had come over

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Speaker 4: there and cut the sugar.

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Speaker 2: Cane by hand power in fidel if you're a listener

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Speaker 2: of the show.

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Speaker 4: And this is a brutal, brutal job. I mean they're

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Speaker 4: using machetes. I don't know how many people have ever

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Speaker 4: actually put their hands on a cane. On sugar cane,

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Speaker 4: it is thick, it is tough, it's like a piece

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Speaker 4: of wood. And to be sitting there whacking at the

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Speaker 4: sugar cane all day long with this raise or sharp machete.

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Speaker 4: They wear pieces of chain mail to try to protect themselves.

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Speaker 4: At the same time, they're still sometimes make mistakes, of course,

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Speaker 4: and cut themselves, cut off pieces of their fingers and

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Speaker 4: bodies and hurt themselves. They're in brutal heat and humidity.

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Speaker 4: They barely get fed. Sometimes they just get a bowl

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Speaker 4: of rice to hear that this is what they were

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Speaker 4: going through to get the sugar onto our tables. And

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Speaker 4: then the sugar industry, the sugar barrens, still stole their

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Speaker 4: wages from them. Yeah, I mean that's why I sweat

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Speaker 4: sugar free because I couldn't. I couldn't. I didn't want

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Speaker 4: to eat it, Like I couldn't do it. I was

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Speaker 4: like I just lost its taste for me.

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Speaker 5: It's so interesting, how like it's one of the few crops.

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Speaker 5: I guess that there has only been a modernization to

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Speaker 5: the way that it's harvested. You know, like there's really

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Speaker 5: no magic bullet or like, you know, kind of machinery

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Speaker 5: that can do it, and you have to have this

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Speaker 5: human aspect to it. And then just to follow up,

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Speaker 5: you know, these folks that are coming in from Jamaica.

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Speaker 5: They're coming in from Jamaica because the job is so

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Speaker 5: dangerous and difficult that that these companies can't find Americans

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Speaker 5: to do it.

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Speaker 4: So they do. They have mechanized since this case, this

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Speaker 4: UH class action suit in the United States, at least

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Speaker 4: they now have mechanized the harvesting of cane. It is

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Speaker 4: still harvested by hand in many other places of the world.

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Speaker 4: The reason they were continuing to do it by hand

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Speaker 4: is that they can the human cutters can get as

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Speaker 4: far to the ground as possible, meaning you get more

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Speaker 4: of the cane.

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Speaker 3: Right now, pulling it out right exactly.

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Speaker 4: But they still, because it's cheaper, they still burn the

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Speaker 4: cane fields when the harvest is over, meaning it's an

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Speaker 4: ecological disaster. Every single year. We went down to these

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Speaker 4: cane fields to experience it for ourselves. We parked in

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Speaker 4: the parking lot of an elementary school and they were

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Speaker 4: burning the cane fields and as soon as we got

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Speaker 4: out of the car, I was covered in this thick,

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Speaker 4: greasy ash. And I looked to the playground and all

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Speaker 4: of the playground toys and the Merry Go Round and

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Speaker 4: stuff were covered in this ash. It is it is.

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Speaker 4: It looks like the beginning of terminator. And so they

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Speaker 4: only did that here in the States because of that

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Speaker 4: class action lawsuit where the cane cutters were trying to

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Speaker 4: get back the wages that were taken from them. So yeah,

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Speaker 4: it's it's just this. I mean to think that we

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Speaker 4: in the United States, this is this is the way

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Speaker 4: we brought these these workers over from Jamaica to have

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Speaker 4: them cut the sugar cane down from us, and this

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Speaker 4: is the way we treated them like this was their

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Speaker 4: American experience.

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Speaker 3: And this was the eighties and the nineties. Yeah, meaning

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Speaker 3: that again the past is far more recent than it

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Speaker 3: looks in the rear view mirror. I'd love to talk

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Speaker 3: a little more about those workers. One thing that I

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Speaker 3: really respect here is Episode one, A Big Sugar. Like

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Speaker 3: from the jump, we're diving into these stories and for

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Speaker 3: people who are not familiar with the sugar industry, you know,

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Speaker 3: other than like their pack of Domino sugar they get

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Speaker 3: at the grocery store. For people who are unfamiliar with

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Speaker 3: how this is made, it's a harsh awakening, Like could

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Speaker 3: you tell us a little bit about why cane cutting

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Speaker 3: is so often called the hardest job in America? You've

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Speaker 3: alluded to some of this, like the medieval chain mail,

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Speaker 3: the idea that these guys some refer to cane cutting

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Speaker 3: as going to war. But what does the average person

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Speaker 3: need to know about this profession? As it was?

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Speaker 5: Then?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, again, a stock of sugar cane is incredibly thick,

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Speaker 4: Like if you've ever had a piece of bamboo, like

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Speaker 4: the bamboo you see like in your grocery store, if

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Speaker 4: you get a little bias of bamboos, that's not what

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Speaker 4: it looks like bamboo that maybe a panda bear snacks on.

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Speaker 4: It's thick wood. It is thick and hard, and it

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Speaker 4: takes like serious strength. They would in order to before

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Speaker 4: these workers were given the go ahead to be shipped

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Speaker 4: to the United States to work here, they were given

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Speaker 4: incredibly intrusive physical exams. They stripped them naked, they peered

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Speaker 4: into every corner of their body to make sure that

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Speaker 4: they were physically capable of doing so. And even then

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Speaker 4: many of them did not make it through a season.

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Speaker 4: It is brutal work because cutting this cane they would

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Speaker 4: have they would grab it with their with their arm,

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Speaker 4: and with the other arm they would slash down with

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Speaker 4: this machete to try to cut through. And it takes

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Speaker 4: power in your body in order to make it through

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Speaker 4: this cane. And again it is very hot. And the

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Speaker 4: leaves themselves, these are they have these leafy fronds coming

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Speaker 4: off there. They kind of slash and you will get

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Speaker 4: little slashes in your arms, little cuts in your arms

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Speaker 4: as you're going through the cane. It's it's planted very

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Speaker 4: close together. If you've ever been in a cornfield, for example,

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Speaker 4: you can get lost in a cornfield quite quite easily.

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Speaker 4: It's very much the same thing. And you're just all

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Speaker 4: day long, for hour after hour after hour, going down

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Speaker 4: these rows of cane and just methodically grabbing cane and

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Speaker 4: cutting and grabbing in cane and cutting and throwing. And

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Speaker 4: when I say throwing, these these canes weigh a lot.

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Speaker 4: It is just and then you look at the dorms

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Speaker 4: in which they were living, and they were I've lost

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Speaker 4: for words. I'm literally a writer and journalist and have

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Speaker 4: been for twenty five years, and I don't even know

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Speaker 4: how to describe the places in which they were living

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Speaker 4: in which sometimes the places when in which they were

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Speaker 4: relieving themselves were holes in Concreteli slave quarters.

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Speaker 5: I mean, let's be honest, I mean that's practically what

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Speaker 5: it is.

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Speaker 2: Yes, well, let's talk about what the like what an

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Speaker 2: individual worker perhaps thought they were getting into before they left,

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Speaker 2: Right before they left for Jamaica. It sounded like to

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Speaker 2: me in the podcast, very similar to something we just

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Speaker 2: covered fishermen in Thailand, where there were sometimes coerced onto

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Speaker 2: a ship under false pretenses of what the job's going

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Speaker 2: to be, what their life's going to be like, just

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Speaker 2: a job opportunity right as it sold to workers often

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Speaker 2: only in this case with again I'm using the names

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Speaker 2: Power and Fidel. That's they're like nicknames. But when they

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Speaker 2: when they're told they're going to go get this job

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Speaker 2: in America to do this thing, what that was like

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Speaker 2: versus when they actually arrived in Palm Beach and met

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Speaker 2: for the first time the people in charge.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, there's two different levels here because the

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Speaker 4: people that they're told that they're going to be paid well,

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Speaker 4: they are sold this idea that they are going to

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Speaker 4: be able to send home to their families real money.

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Speaker 4: And at the time, Jamaica was desperately poor. And I

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Speaker 4: don't need to go into the colonial history of why

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Speaker 4: Jamaica was desperately poor. Most people who are aware of

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Speaker 4: colonial history probably know that. So the money that I

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Speaker 4: thought that were going to be making under the H

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Speaker 4: one N one visa was going to be well worth it,

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Speaker 4: regardless of what conditions they were going to be working under.

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Speaker 4: So the people who were very first going maybe this

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Speaker 4: is their first trip to the United States to work

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Speaker 4: under these conditions. You're absolutely correct. Maybe they didn't realize

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Speaker 4: what they were getting into. The thing was is that

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Speaker 4: there were people who went back again and again and again,

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Speaker 4: even though they knew what they were getting into, because

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Speaker 4: things were so desperately poor in Jamaica that they continue

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Speaker 4: to sacrifice. However, they would not tell their families. When

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Speaker 4: you read the letters that they were writing back home

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Speaker 4: to their families, they didn't tell their families what they

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Speaker 4: were enduring. Often back in the United States.

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Speaker 3: Because they didn't want them to spend all their days worrying.

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Speaker 3: You know, are you going to come back with all

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Speaker 3: your fingers? Are you going to come back at all?

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Speaker 4: That's right, And they would be constantly threatened that if

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Speaker 4: they didn't work hard enough, if they didn't pick up

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Speaker 4: the pace, they would be deported because these employers had

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Speaker 4: the power to send them back to Jamaica, to make

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Speaker 4: them to not only lose their jobs, but send them

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Speaker 4: out of the country immediately. That's what that meant. And

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Speaker 4: so they were constantly in fear of being deported out

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Speaker 4: of the United States. But you know, the money they

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Speaker 4: were making here was still better than what they had

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Speaker 4: back in Jamaica at the time, in the in the

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Speaker 4: eighties and nineties.

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Speaker 3: And that's even minus the what do we call it

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Speaker 3: the company store mentality? Right, like these guys are charged

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Speaker 3: for transit room and board that comes out before they

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Speaker 3: ever see a cent in a paycheck that actually goes

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Speaker 3: to them, which which could be doable other jobs do that.

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Speaker 3: So long as you can predict what you're actually being paid, right,

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Speaker 3: that's the key piece.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you know I have to there's no way to

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Speaker 4: say this for sure. I can't as a journalist confirm this,

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Speaker 4: but it appears as though the payment system was purposely obtuse.

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Speaker 4: It was confusing the way that things were being paid.

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Speaker 4: In other words, there was a confusing system of were

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Speaker 4: they being paid by the ton, were they being paid

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Speaker 4: by the hour? They were supposed to be paid by

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Speaker 4: a certain system under the VISA system, but when you

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Speaker 4: actually looked at their hourly sheets, it was being paid

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Speaker 4: by a certain a different system, and it was very,

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Speaker 4: very difficult to understand how they were being paid. And

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Speaker 4: we tried to explain this over the course of the podcast,

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Speaker 4: and you can kind of get the sense of why

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Speaker 4: the lawyers who were representing them in the class action

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Speaker 4: suit were concerned that the judges wouldn't understand, and why

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Speaker 4: they were kind of walking through it step by step

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Speaker 4: by step to try to explain to the court, and

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Speaker 4: why when they finally got to a jury it kind

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Speaker 4: of got it all muddled up. The juries didn't quite

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Speaker 4: get it.

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Speaker 5: Under a visa program like that, are there different stipulations

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Speaker 5: that maybe allow for a more vague system of pay

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Speaker 5: and that doesn't necessarily line up with labor laws, you

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Speaker 5: know for US citizens. I'm just I don't know, I'm curious.

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Speaker 2: What you need no.

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Speaker 4: I mean they have to be paid a certain amount per.

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Speaker 5: Hour, but somehow they found a loophole to make that office.

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Speaker 4: They always make loop poles, and in fact, in the end,

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Speaker 4: the only way that we focus on one particular company,

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Speaker 4: it was actually owned by the fun Huls, two brothers

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Speaker 4: who are originally two Cuban brothers who fled to Cuba

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Speaker 4: when Castro took over and their family lost everything. They

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Speaker 4: were enormously, fabulously rich in Cuba, literally owned a palace

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Speaker 4: there and fled to the United States. They own us Sugar,

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Speaker 4: and we focus on them because they were the ones

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Speaker 4: that kept the class action lawsuit going even when we

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Speaker 4: suspect that their legal fees exceeded the amount that they

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Speaker 4: would have had to pay the workers in back pay,

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Speaker 4: and they ended up having to rely on an outdated

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Speaker 4: law that dated back hundreds of years to like colonial

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Speaker 4: America in order to in order to avoid having to

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Speaker 4: pay back pay to the law to the workers.

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Speaker 3: Atrocious unclean k.

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Speaker 2: Can you tell us just about how that class action

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Speaker 2: lawsuit began, like who started it and how did it?

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Speaker 2: How did it come to fruition.

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Speaker 4: So there were some public interest lawyers who had been

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Speaker 4: representing immigrant workers in Texas and other areas, and they

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Speaker 4: got a tip from an anonymous person who said, you know,

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Speaker 4: these people are being underpaid, and you know, it was very,

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Speaker 4: very difficult to even speak to the workers, and they

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Speaker 4: described how difficult it was to even get close to them.

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Speaker 4: The sugar companies prevented you from even speaking to these workers,

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Speaker 4: even getting close to them in the fields. They would

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Speaker 4: have security guards escort you off of the of the

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Speaker 4: property if you even got close to the dorms, and

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Speaker 4: you couldn't even talk to them. And so it took

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Speaker 4: quite a long time for them to even get this

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Speaker 4: case going, but they eventually were able to. They had

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Speaker 4: to make a lot of trips to Jamaica to even

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Speaker 4: get clients for this.

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Speaker 3: And I just want to shout out one of my

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Speaker 3: favorite moments in some of these interviews you do is

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Speaker 3: when we learn that one of these lawyers he's he's

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Speaker 3: very steady and very like affable and not shaken by

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Speaker 3: a lot of things that would terrify ordinary people, Like

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Speaker 3: he gets a some kind of death threat one time,

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Speaker 3: and he replies, well, I on town right now, but

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Speaker 3: I can give you a call when i'm back, and

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Speaker 3: that's uh, this is the guy I sometimes referred to

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Speaker 3: as the Harvard Idiot in Texas.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, a guy calls him up and says, Hey, come

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Speaker 4: down to my property. I need to I'm gonna kill you.

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Speaker 2: Come over for me, pencil it in, come out of town.

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Speaker 4: I can't make it.

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Speaker 5: Amazing well, and also the forgive me I'm blinking on

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Speaker 5: the name, but the journalists that he kind of starts

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Speaker 5: the story off, who has had a history as a

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Speaker 5: rock musician and various other kind of occupations before he

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Speaker 5: landed in journalism. He is told basically, you're never going

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Speaker 5: to talk to one of these people. You're never going

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Speaker 5: to talk to a cane cutter. And he goes try

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Speaker 5: me and then and it is difficult, you know, by design,

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Speaker 5: but he eventually does, you know, cut through. No pun

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Speaker 5: intended there either. But how how are they able to

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Speaker 5: keep people from these workers, you know, and keep them

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Speaker 5: so isolated in a way that just frankly really does

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Speaker 5: like slavery, like having kept humans, you know, that they're

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Speaker 5: kept away from anyone that could possibly help them.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I gotta tell you, even you know, even

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Speaker 4: we tried to even talk to the either one of

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Speaker 4: the found huls Alfie and pepefn hul of of US Sugar.

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Speaker 4: And it just is so striking that if you have

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Speaker 4: money in America you don't have to answer questions ever

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Speaker 4: about anything. That's just the truth. We have a long

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Speaker 4: montage in there of how how hard we tried to

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Speaker 4: talk to one of them. We tried even just running

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Speaker 4: into them outside their building. We went, I went to

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Speaker 4: their home, I went to their yacht, We went to

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Speaker 4: their building. We tried even just dropping off a letter

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Speaker 4: at the front desk of their office. We couldn't even

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Speaker 4: get to the receptionist. Yeah, you, if you have money

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Speaker 4: in America, you don't have to answer for the decisions

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Speaker 4: you make or what you do.

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Speaker 3: And this is I want to stand this point for

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Speaker 3: a second. Two because the the incredibly sophisticated stonewalling here.

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Speaker 3: It does sound like something out of a thriller novel

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Speaker 3: for a lot of folks. You're listening and you can say, well,

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Speaker 3: this sounds a little larger than life. But I'm believe

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Speaker 3: was the documentarian Stephanie and Alec, the journalists, they're working

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Speaker 3: in this field, they're they're trying to talk with these workers.

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Speaker 3: As you said before, the before the legal case and

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Speaker 3: the traveling to Jamaica and these got these folks end

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Speaker 3: up having to resort basically to trade craft. They have

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Speaker 3: to pull some spycraft moves just to get in.

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Speaker 6: Uh.

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Speaker 3: The one thing that struck me, I really want to

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Speaker 3: ask you about is our documentarian here is very explicit

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Speaker 3: and very very certain that the sugar companies use their

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Speaker 3: influence to push law enforcement right to intimidate them and

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Speaker 3: harass them. And she's got to keep picking up like

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Speaker 3: she's switching rental cars out, which is another spy move.

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Speaker 3: Did you were your team ever feel unsafe or threatened

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Speaker 3: in your investigation because it seems like these guys are

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Speaker 3: not playing around.

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Speaker 4: So you're talking about Stephanie Black who eventually made the

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Speaker 4: documentary H two Worker, And yeah, she was followed and

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Speaker 4: she had to be very very very careful. We did

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Speaker 4: not have that experience. Now, I will say, we knew

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Speaker 4: that happened to her, and so we weren't, you know,

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Speaker 4: we didn't. We were already prepared, you know what I mean,

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Speaker 4: Like we already knew going in that to take to

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Speaker 4: take measures. And we got in, got out. We we

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Speaker 4: made short trips, we made two day trips. You know.

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Speaker 2: How many burner phones did you go through?

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Speaker 5: Celeste?

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Speaker 4: I didn't.

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Speaker 3: You know?

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Speaker 4: And you know, and I'm not Stephanie Black. I'm Celeste Hedley,

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Speaker 4: a member of sag Aftra, longtime NPR. You know, come

401
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:30,359
Speaker 4: at me, try me, you know, uh, bring it on.

402
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Speaker 4: So I'd like to see see a try So it's

403
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Speaker 4: a different world for you. And and you know, to

404
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Speaker 4: a certain extent, it's the work of somebody like Stephanie

405
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:49,600
Speaker 4: Black and Alec I can build on their work, right

406
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Speaker 4: that then you bring in somebody who has a little

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Speaker 4: bit more standing that makes it possible to where then

408
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Speaker 4: they are going to end up with somebody who has

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Speaker 4: a little bit not equal power, but a little bit

410
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Speaker 4: more standing to wear nice.

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Speaker 3: Tribe buster to oppress, a little bit.

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Speaker 4: More difficult to push around. And then of course, big sugar,

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Speaker 4: you know, we have iHeartMedia behind us, we have Imagine

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Speaker 4: Audio behind us, like nice, Yeah, exactly, give it a go.

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Speaker 2: Is is Vanity Fair a part of this at all?

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Speaker 2: Or is that just Marie Brenner.

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Speaker 4: Vanity Fair published the original article and so and you know,

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Speaker 4: Marie Brenner is no joke, right, I mean, we're talking

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Speaker 4: about a legendary journalist and so absolutely nothing in that

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Speaker 4: original article was not fact checked a billion times and

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Speaker 4: absolutely rock solid, you know, and you know, including the

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Speaker 4: very opening scene, I mean the opening just to prove

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Speaker 4: how much power the these brothers have, the Funhole brothers.

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Speaker 4: The opening scene in Marie Brandish's article is where Bill

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Speaker 4: Clinton is breaking up with Monica Lewinsky, like he has

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Speaker 4: called her into the Oval office to break up with her,

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Speaker 4: and his aid calls him and says, there's a phone

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Speaker 4: call for you, and Bill Clinton says, I'm doing something

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Speaker 4: and he says it's Alfie fun Hul and he says,

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Speaker 4: I'll take that call.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow.

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Speaker 4: That's how powerful these two guys are. And it just

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Speaker 4: is there to show you the fact that for so

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Speaker 4: many generations, sugar has been operating under the cloak the

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Speaker 4: shadow of darkness and manipulating our lives. And this podcast,

436
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 4: like the title of this podcast is perfect. It is

437
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 4: stuff they don't want us to know about in so

438
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 4: many ways, it is time. It's time for reckoning for

439
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:53,160
Speaker 4: this sugar industry. It really is.

440
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:55,240
Speaker 5: You get into this in the podcast too, but just

441
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 5: the idea of sugar as part of our diet and

442
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 5: just the way it's been pushed on like children's burials,

443
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,239
Speaker 5: and you know, the marketing behind all of it, let

444
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,959
Speaker 5: alone all of the dark goings on behind the scenes,

445
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 5: and how it actually you know, comes to be in

446
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 5: those products. I think it's fascinating. And you draw a

447
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:17,200
Speaker 5: really interesting parallel between you know, the history of slavery

448
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,680
Speaker 5: in our country, you know, and and those conditions that

449
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:23,160
Speaker 5: didn't change a hell of a lot, like a lot

450
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 5: of things, like you know, we just sort of converted

451
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,200
Speaker 5: prison labor to what we were getting out of slave labor.

452
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 5: You see a lot of these loopholes in American history.

453
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 5: Could you talk a little bit about that and that

454
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,840
Speaker 5: parallel that you kind of see, you know, into that

455
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 5: transition between you know, doing it kind of through the

456
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,919
Speaker 5: slave labor, the slave trade, and then kind of figuring

457
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 5: out a way around it, but basically keeping it the same.

458
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:46,879
Speaker 4: I mean, well, first of all, slavery always was about

459
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:50,680
Speaker 4: control of labor. You know, Racism was invented in order

460
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 4: to justify control of labor, not the other way around.

461
00:26:56,119 --> 00:27:02,520
Speaker 4: And so there is a direct line between sugar and slavery,

462
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 4: and it is still wage slavery to today. You cannot

463
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 4: separate the sugar on our table from slavery, you can't.

464
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 4: And so today, even today, the ways in which we

465
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:22,040
Speaker 4: have manipulated the public, and even if you look at

466
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 4: the ways, you know, you think about, you know, the

467
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 4: reckoning that came for tobacco, the reckoning that has come

468
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 4: for the pharmat pharmaceutical industry in a small way, in

469
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 4: the ways that they have manipulated even science, and that

470
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 4: has happened in a certain way with like eugenics, in

471
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:43,439
Speaker 4: the way that they manipulated things to you know, to

472
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 4: try to make it look like racism was justified scientifically.

473
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 4: That was again to try to manipulate labor, to say

474
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:57,240
Speaker 4: that certain races were designed to labor. Right, that's connected

475
00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 4: to sugar. They were designed to stand in the field

476
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:04,119
Speaker 4: and cut your hane all day. But also in terms

477
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:06,359
Speaker 4: of the science of our food and the way we eat.

478
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 4: You can even just go back just a couple decades

479
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:12,119
Speaker 4: and look at the way that they manipulated our sugar

480
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:15,919
Speaker 4: science science to say that it was not sugar that

481
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,399
Speaker 4: was making us fat, it was fat.

482
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 5: Right.

483
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 4: You can find you can find these ads that say,

484
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 4: if sugar it makes you obese, then why are there

485
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 4: so many skinny kids? Kids? Eat more sugar in anybody

486
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 4: that is called fat.

487
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 5: It makes clearly it makes you fat. And now we

488
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 5: know that there's good fat in there. You know, we

489
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:35,879
Speaker 5: have things like keto dyet and all of that.

490
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 4: You know. I even had ads that at that pedaled

491
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 4: sugar as a way to control your appetite. They said

492
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 4: sugar might just be the willpower you need to curb

493
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 4: your appetite. They had sugar advertising sugar as the quick

494
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 4: energy you need to resist eating too much. They had

495
00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 4: advertised sugar as a healthy way to eat less. They

496
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 4: had advertised sugar as not dangerous to your teeth. Right. So,

497
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 4: there are so many ways in which they have manipulated

498
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 4: the American public. They put sugar into literally everything you

499
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 4: mentioned before that I tried to get sugar out of

500
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,479
Speaker 4: my diet. I a didn't have the time for it

501
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 4: because I had to end up making all of my

502
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 4: own stuff.

503
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 3: It's a second job.

504
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I didn't have the money. It became so

505
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 4: expensive to try to buy all the specialty things that

506
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 4: I needed in order to get rid of sugar. It's

507
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 4: in everything. It's in everything.

508
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 3: We're going to pause for a word from our sponsor,

509
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 3: and then we'll return with Celeste Hedley and we're back Celeste.

510
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 2: Is there a they in the stuff they don't want

511
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 2: you to know of sugar? Is there like an alliance

512
00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,480
Speaker 2: of some sort or a group, like a lobbying group

513
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 2: or anything.

514
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:04,320
Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, there's the trade industries. I mean there's that.

515
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 4: There's a very small number of sugar companies that make

516
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 4: up the sugar industry, and there's the lobbying group for sugar.

517
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 4: There was a response from the Sugar Trade Group to

518
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 4: our podcast saying that you know, this class action suit

519
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 4: happened a long time ago, and now they're very modernized

520
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 4: and they employ a lot of people. All those things

521
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 4: are true.

522
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:30,480
Speaker 3: But but.

523
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 2: If it's if it's a group like that, they are

524
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 2: the one. So I guess there are individuals, like you said,

525
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:39,240
Speaker 2: Alfie was able to get Bill Clinton on the phone

526
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 2: as an individual, powerful human being. But it does feel

527
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 2: like if you've got a group that is making a

528
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 2: lot of money subsidizing their product with you know, super

529
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 2: cheap labor at least for a long time, and with

530
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 2: government funding, right, you can probably spend a lot more

531
00:30:56,320 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 2: money lobbying, which I'm assuming that's what happens. I don't

532
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 2: know that see. That to me just feels it's the

533
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 2: kind of creepy thing that we talk about a lot

534
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 2: on the show, where a large group, a fairly small

535
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 2: group in this instance, can wield so much power with

536
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 2: lawmakers and even with the executive branch. You still got

537
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 2: that sense.

538
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, this is a small group of people.

539
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 4: And let me tell you how bad of a deal

540
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 4: this is for the United States taxpayer. It's so bad

541
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 4: that the Cato Institute referred to them as a cartel.

542
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 4: I mean, anyway, we give billions of dollars to the

543
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 4: US sugar industry to plant sugar. We pay them billions

544
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 4: to plant it, to grow it, as though it's not

545
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 4: a profitable industry, right, Like, as though people wouldn't we

546
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 4: have to prioritize it, right, It's not like it's kale.

547
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 4: People are going to buy sugar, you know, you don't

548
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 4: have to incentivize it. So we pay them billions to

549
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 4: plant it.

550
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 3: We buy them yachts.

551
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 2: No, then sugar.

552
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 4: Is more expensive in the United States than pretty much

553
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 4: every other wealthy nation in the world, So we're paying

554
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:20,720
Speaker 4: them billions. Then we're paying more for the product in

555
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 4: the grocery store, and they are then carrying out environmental

556
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 4: disasters like burning down their fields, and the environmental costs

557
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 4: on the other hand, for example, the Everglades are total recks,

558
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:41,440
Speaker 4: are probably going to end up cost in the US

559
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 4: taxpayers another billions, if not trillions, plus the climate change costs,

560
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 4: so there's another cost as well. And then you come

561
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 4: to the healthcare costs, because when you cover towns in

562
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 4: ash you're talking about a massive cost. And then of

563
00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 4: course there's the human cost. So we are.

564
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 5: Of the consuming the product itself. Let's not forget I mean,

565
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 5: which again.

566
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:10,960
Speaker 4: Which again, So if you start counting this all up,

567
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 4: it's a it's a pretty bad deal.

568
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 2: Why are we doing it?

569
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 3: It's a good deal for the sugar barons since they're

570
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 3: still around. But that's like one of the questions, you know,

571
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 3: like how how does this deal come to be? You

572
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 3: know what I mean?

573
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 5: Like how do we say enough?

574
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 4: Is it?

575
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 3: Contribution?

576
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,960
Speaker 4: Shout it out? In World War Two because we were

577
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 4: afraid that, you know, we were all bought in on

578
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 4: the fact that sugar wasn't necessary was needed for energy,

579
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 4: that especially for our soldiers, that they would need that

580
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 4: that cheap energy burst in order to keep their energy going.

581
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 4: For all the athletic you know things that they were doing. Okay,

582
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 4: so they put all this money into the sugar industry

583
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 4: to subsidize it to make sure that we wouldn't ever

584
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 4: have to rely on other countries in order to keep

585
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 4: sugar in the United States. So that's how it started

586
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 4: in World War Two, and it has just kept going

587
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 4: because the sugar barons have continued to grease to butter

588
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 4: both sides of these bread giving very liberally to both

589
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 4: the Republicans and the Democrats to such an extent that

590
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,839
Speaker 4: it has just been seen as a sacred cow. And

591
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 4: also the American public just has look, as we say,

592
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 4: as we say in the podcast, the Farm Bill is

593
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:34,319
Speaker 4: just not a sexy piece of legislation. People don't pay

594
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 4: any attention to this, and that's really one of the

595
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,879
Speaker 4: major purposes of this podcast, and it's why we brought

596
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:43,759
Speaker 4: it out this year because the Farm Bill only comes

597
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,440
Speaker 4: up for reconsideration every five years, and it's up for

598
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 4: reconsideration right now, and it's time. It is time to

599
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 4: stop paying billions of dollars to people to grow this

600
00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 4: product that they would grow anyway, and then pay for

601
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:01,239
Speaker 4: it again in the growth store and pay for it

602
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:04,319
Speaker 4: again to in an environment, and pay for it again

603
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 4: at the doctor's office, and pay for it again and

604
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:09,800
Speaker 4: again and again and again and again and again.

605
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:13,120
Speaker 2: I wonder if we were paying so much more at

606
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:16,319
Speaker 2: the grocery store. Let's say, I don't know exactly how

607
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,240
Speaker 2: much you know, a certain amount of sugar costs right now,

608
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:24,760
Speaker 2: but if that was doubled, let's say, or even tripled,

609
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:27,880
Speaker 2: I wonder if that would in like really have a

610
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:32,360
Speaker 2: ripple effect, a beneficial effect to people not using sugar

611
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 2: as much at home, and also would increase the price

612
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:40,799
Speaker 2: of you know, highly sugared products that are giving us well,

613
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 2: they're giving us all heart disease, and I know, as

614
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 2: you said, diabetes and fatty liver disease and all these things.

615
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 2: I don't know, I think you I selest I can

616
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:50,400
Speaker 2: I could see that working really well?

617
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 4: Yeah? Maybe so. I mean, the US has guaranteed sugar

618
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:57,919
Speaker 4: growers a price of sugar for a really, really long time.

619
00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 4: They've guaranteed that they will get a certain price for sugar.

620
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, I mean, but look at this, Look

621
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:11,799
Speaker 4: at the look at the uproar when when Bloomberg tried

622
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:13,400
Speaker 4: to put a sugar tax on soda.

623
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, oh yeah, remember that the vice tax didn't

624
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 3: uh didn't jibe with the public, And there were several

625
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 3: there were several PR firms more than willing to push

626
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 3: back against Bloomberg's move, and they somehow had a lot

627
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 3: of money to do it. Yeah, just pointing that part out.

628
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:37,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, these these these these ground swell of consumer anger about.

629
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 6: Sure, yeah, well what are we gonna do besides, like,

630
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:45,320
Speaker 6: if we're not putting sugar in everything, if we're taxing

631
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 6: all the sugar, what are we going to use aspartame?

632
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 6: I don't know if everybody's heard w h o is

633
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,840
Speaker 6: is coming out again saying hey, guys, maybe aspartain's not

634
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,920
Speaker 6: a great idea, And then the FDA says, no, it's fine.

635
00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 2: We're the ones who approved it. It's good.

636
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 3: But yeah, there we got a call, right you. FDA

637
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,440
Speaker 3: didn't reply until they checked in with some folks.

638
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 5: It's also not the same. I mean, the idea of

639
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,760
Speaker 5: a diet soda exists because it is an alternative to sugar,

640
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:13,400
Speaker 5: you know, So it's like, yeah, also just can't be

641
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 5: diet soda. Then what do you have to compare it to?

642
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:17,120
Speaker 5: Then when what do you get to have for a treat,

643
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:20,560
Speaker 5: you know. I mean it's just so foundationally, you know,

644
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 5: entrenched in our culture, like with the culinary cooking shows,

645
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:26,719
Speaker 5: baking shows, all of this stuff. No one's going to

646
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 5: just stop using sugar and switch to I mean, it's

647
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 5: like I think that Genie is already out of the bottle.

648
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:32,359
Speaker 2: I don't know, but you know what.

649
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 4: I will say this having gone through I mean I

650
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 4: went without sugar basically for six months, and I will

651
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,880
Speaker 4: say that it was hard, but I will also say

652
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:46,919
Speaker 4: that surprisingly, it didn't take me very long to sort

653
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:51,760
Speaker 4: of lose my taste for sugar and realize that pretty

654
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 4: quickly you start realizing that you can suddenly taste the

655
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 4: real taste of things.

656
00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, what was What was it like when you had

657
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 3: When did you have anything that you ate like a

658
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:04,759
Speaker 3: month seven or something where you thought, WHOA, how much

659
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:05,799
Speaker 3: sugar is in this?

660
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 4: Yeah? Like, first of all, there's things that have sugar,

661
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:13,320
Speaker 4: like beef, jerky like tea. Tea does not need sugar.

662
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 4: Things like bread, Why the does bread have sugar in it?

663
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 4: There's all kinds of things. Chicken nuggets, Why the sorry

664
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:32,239
Speaker 4: nuggets have sugar in them? And people put sugar in

665
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:39,400
Speaker 4: Italian dressing. You know, there are so many things that

666
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 4: have sugar in them, and then when you start taking

667
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 4: them out, you're like, oh, this tastes so much better

668
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:47,799
Speaker 4: when it's not.

669
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 2: Sweet, like you use f bomb Celesti, it's delight, Like

670
00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,200
Speaker 2: what the holy.

671
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 3: My friends who are from other parts of the world,

672
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 3: that's one of their main complaints. They say, I can't

673
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:10,239
Speaker 3: buy any bread in the US that isn't somehow also cake, Yeah,

674
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:10,880
Speaker 3: like what the.

675
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:14,840
Speaker 4: Like exactly and when you start eating bread that tastes

676
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 4: like I don't know, bread like it's and I will

677
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:23,799
Speaker 4: say that that has lasted for me like a I

678
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:26,759
Speaker 4: make all my own dressings. I do make my own

679
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:30,719
Speaker 4: bread because like what the But what about.

680
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 5: Like natural sugars. There's natural sugars in fruits and things.

681
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:37,880
Speaker 5: You know, there are ways to get a similar effect

682
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 5: just by you know, the natural sugars that are contained

683
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:41,399
Speaker 5: within you know, even like.

684
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, of course, but in order to use those

685
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:45,960
Speaker 4: in your like your baking and things, you have to

686
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 4: buy and also in order to use in order to

687
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 4: get those to use in your baking, you have to

688
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:55,840
Speaker 4: like track down these manufacturers who are not connected to this,

689
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 4: like wage slavery. Blah blah blah blah blah. There's like

690
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:03,120
Speaker 4: a company called whole some that are like, as implied

691
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 4: by the name, not connected to this whole horrifying industry.

692
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:09,440
Speaker 5: But see the supply chain, you can a.

693
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:12,680
Speaker 4: Relatively expensive I'll put it you this way. The US

694
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,360
Speaker 4: economy loses a billion dollars a year because of the

695
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 4: US sugar program, a billion dollars a year, and some

696
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:25,200
Speaker 4: economists estimate that the US sugar program causes somewhere between

697
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 4: seventeen to twenty thousand people to become unemployed on an

698
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 4: annual basis.

699
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 5: I guess, I guess that's where I don't understand, is like,

700
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:35,720
Speaker 5: does it seem like we're in the business of losing

701
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:38,440
Speaker 5: a billion dollars a year? You know, the government's pretty

702
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 5: stingy for the most part when it comes to things

703
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 5: like that, like where is this hostage situation taking place?

704
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:47,399
Speaker 5: Like who is holding the gun to Uncle Sam's head

705
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 5: that is forcing us to continue with this horrible deal

706
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:52,960
Speaker 5: that is across the board horrible that it seems to

707
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:54,320
Speaker 5: be quantifiably bad.

708
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 4: So as your the title of your show implies, this

709
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 4: is they don't want you to know. This is not

710
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 4: how they present it right. You know, politicians also don't

711
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 4: read the fine print, and that's not how they present it.

712
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:11,840
Speaker 4: They instead say, this is how many people they employ.

713
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 4: We're just farmers, We're just American farmers. We are if

714
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 4: you read the Alfhi Funhoul and Peppi fun whole story,

715
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:25,399
Speaker 4: they are immigrants who made their way up through their

716
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:30,440
Speaker 4: own grit, and they're they they're the classic American dream story.

717
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:32,880
Speaker 4: That's their story.

718
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:35,720
Speaker 3: That's a good pr you know, we should call Pixar

719
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:39,360
Speaker 3: and get that one made. But that's also that's also

720
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 3: so intentionally, so insidiously and purposely misleading. You know, I'm

721
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:48,960
Speaker 3: really glad you mentioned the idea of the politicians interacting

722
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:52,480
Speaker 3: with quote unquote farm interest, because I don't think a

723
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 3: lot of Americans are aware just how monopolized that has become.

724
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:01,840
Speaker 3: Like every time I hear a politician of any ideological

725
00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 3: stripe talk about, what, you know, working for small farmers,

726
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 3: I have to try not to laugh, because what we

727
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:12,240
Speaker 3: need to realize is so many of those quote unquote

728
00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:16,360
Speaker 3: small farms were long ago bought out by larger, larger

729
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 3: interests that have a lot of weight. To your point,

730
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 3: they have a lot of weight to pull. Do you

731
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,719
Speaker 3: think part of the problem not just comes from like

732
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 3: legacy and tradition and dependency from World War Two? But

733
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:34,400
Speaker 3: could part of it be the relatively constrained goal horizon

734
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:38,839
Speaker 3: of politicians, Like how you know it's politically it's very

735
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:42,439
Speaker 3: difficult for a congress person, someone on a local level,

736
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:46,880
Speaker 3: or even even the president honestly to really support a

737
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 3: decision that is not going to bear fruit for you know,

738
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:54,440
Speaker 3: within two to four years, right, So is that part

739
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:56,840
Speaker 3: of it the time horizon? Does that make it tougher

740
00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:58,560
Speaker 3: for them to break the cycle?

741
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:05,080
Speaker 4: Maybe? I mean, perhaps I think it's more about the

742
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:11,120
Speaker 4: fact that politics voters Homo sapiens always has and ever

743
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 4: will be more motivated by fear than positive feelings, always

744
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:21,359
Speaker 4: has been and ever will be. That's our species, and

745
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 4: that's our neurology, and that's how the amygdala works. And

746
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:35,879
Speaker 4: therefore politicians know that they can drum up voters by

747
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 4: talking about Americans and farmers and the threat to the

748
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:46,880
Speaker 4: American way, and and that's how they can get voters

749
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:50,759
Speaker 4: to the polls, and they can simplify everything down into

750
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 4: very very simple terms, and they don't have to talk

751
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 4: about the phosphorus runoff from the sugarcane fields, and how

752
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:03,520
Speaker 4: that is causing sawgrass to completely overwhelm the everglades and

753
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:05,880
Speaker 4: ruin the environment, and how that's leading to climate change,

754
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 4: and how that's going to cost trillions of dollars to combat,

755
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:12,360
Speaker 4: and how that's going to fall on the most vulnerable

756
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:13,960
Speaker 4: in US to pay for and how they don't have

757
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:15,719
Speaker 4: the money to pay for it and have that's a

758
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:18,719
Speaker 4: result of inequality and blah blah blah. I mean, you know,

759
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:20,400
Speaker 4: who has the time to explain all of that and

760
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:21,000
Speaker 4: who cares?

761
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:25,080
Speaker 5: Isn't there also another way of creating sugar by processing

762
00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 5: sugar beets that doesn't involve harvesting sugar cane and this

763
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 5: brutal labor system.

764
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 4: Our sugar beats more environmentally friendly, not necessarily, so that's

765
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 4: not I will say this sugar production from Dutch beat sugar,

766
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:51,240
Speaker 4: which I assume is what you mean, does produce quite

767
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:54,840
Speaker 4: a bit less CO two and those little fine particles

768
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:58,280
Speaker 4: that get into the air than cane sugar. It also

769
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:02,759
Speaker 4: uses a lot less water, So yes, beat sugar is

770
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:08,239
Speaker 4: much more sustainable than cane sugar. Is it does it

771
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:12,200
Speaker 4: take less land? I'm not sure. I don't know the

772
00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:12,759
Speaker 4: answer to that.

773
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:14,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm not I'm not trying. I only bring it

774
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:17,080
Speaker 5: up because you'll probably remember the story that was very

775
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:20,480
Speaker 5: big in Georgia and the early aughts, the Imperial Sugar

776
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:25,919
Speaker 5: Refinery explosion that was a product of poor conditions here

777
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:29,759
Speaker 5: at home, you know, where the stuff is being refined

778
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 5: and created and put into the packages that we then

779
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 5: find on the shelves. I believe you know, upwards of

780
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:37,799
Speaker 5: a dozen people were killed, and they were you know,

781
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:41,319
Speaker 5: hugely injured. If they weren't killed. There was a whole

782
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 5: big story because where I was covering at the time,

783
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:46,799
Speaker 5: there was a big burn unit at the at the

784
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 5: Medical College of Georgia, which was I'm sorry it was

785
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:52,320
Speaker 5: at the time called like Augusta State University. There was

786
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:54,200
Speaker 5: a medical facility associated with it. So a lot of

787
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 5: those folks were you know, scent there. But I don't

788
00:45:57,560 --> 00:45:59,799
Speaker 5: know that was an isolated event or are there other

789
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:04,839
Speaker 5: of refineries having unsafe conditions as well that you've There are.

790
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:06,919
Speaker 4: Many of them, you know, there are many of them.

791
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:09,840
Speaker 4: I mean, we're you know, anytime that you have that

792
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:12,920
Speaker 4: amount of particles going off into the air, anytime that

793
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:18,560
Speaker 4: you have something that is a refinery, which always means heat,

794
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:23,719
Speaker 4: which always means grinding. There's going to be unsafe conditions.

795
00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:27,400
Speaker 4: And anytime that you have poorly paid workers and a

796
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:30,040
Speaker 4: lot of them, you know there's going to be danger.

797
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:33,759
Speaker 4: You know, I mean I think that. And not only that,

798
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:36,279
Speaker 4: but anytime that you have industries that are pushing for

799
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:42,279
Speaker 4: less regulation and you have a government bodies where they

800
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:47,440
Speaker 4: are severely understaffed, and that includes the government body that

801
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:52,560
Speaker 4: oversees agricultural production, there's a lot of danger.

802
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:55,440
Speaker 5: Okay, let's take a quick break here, a word from

803
00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:58,600
Speaker 5: our sponsor, and then jump right back in with Celeste.

804
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:07,960
Speaker 3: And we've returned before we move on, because there is

805
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 3: a there, There is a twist here. There's also another

806
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:15,360
Speaker 3: show that we definitely want to talk a little bit about,

807
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:19,680
Speaker 3: uh that has that is also held by you, Celeste.

808
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 3: One of the big questions that I think is on

809
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 3: everybody's mind is when you listen to Big Sugar, which

810
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:31,040
Speaker 3: in my experiences is the best investigation of its kind

811
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:35,680
Speaker 3: in this industry, when you when we when we listen

812
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 3: to this, what do we hope people can take away

813
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 3: from the show? What is there? We're all about empowerment, right, So,

814
00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:47,720
Speaker 3: knowing the problems of the sugar industry, are there things

815
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:51,320
Speaker 3: or steps that you know, Jane and John Q public

816
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:57,319
Speaker 3: or whatever can take to help mitigate or address these injustices.

817
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:00,200
Speaker 4: I mean, I hope the first thing that people do

818
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:03,439
Speaker 4: is call their representative and their senator about the Farm Bill.

819
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 3: Okay, first thing first.

820
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:07,880
Speaker 4: The Farm Bill is up for reconsideration right now, and

821
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:11,480
Speaker 4: it's time to take action. It only comes up for reconsideration,

822
00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:15,080
Speaker 4: as I said, every five years, So I'm looking at

823
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:15,840
Speaker 4: my watch here.

824
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:19,960
Speaker 5: Time is now, and you're saying, as it's written currently,

825
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:24,120
Speaker 5: it's just it's way too many dispensations for these big companies.

826
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:26,680
Speaker 5: It makes it way too easy for them to get around,

827
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:30,960
Speaker 5: you know, safe conditions. And you were pushing for rewriting

828
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:32,480
Speaker 5: it in a way that would take them to task

829
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:34,600
Speaker 5: or that would in some way improve things.

830
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:39,520
Speaker 4: So when we talk about how much money, how much

831
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 4: is in the Farm Bill for US sugar, and when

832
00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 4: we talk about the fact that there's billions for US

833
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:52,279
Speaker 4: sugar in the Farm Bill, then what we're talking about

834
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:58,200
Speaker 4: is billions in your money for the US sugar program.

835
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:04,160
Speaker 4: That's your money. So when you also hear politicians say

836
00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:09,399
Speaker 4: we don't have money to house the homeless. When you

837
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:12,439
Speaker 4: say that we don't have money for schools to pay

838
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:15,680
Speaker 4: teachers more, to pay firefighters more. We don't have money

839
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:21,440
Speaker 4: to build new to resurface highways or build new bridges,

840
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:25,760
Speaker 4: but we have money to give billions to us sugar

841
00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:28,040
Speaker 4: and to Alfi von hul who owns a yacht that's

842
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:32,640
Speaker 4: worth I think over thirty or forty million dollars. It's

843
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:34,560
Speaker 4: time to call you representative and your senator.

844
00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:37,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's really important. It's really important you do

845
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:40,520
Speaker 2: it as an individual whoever you are listening right now,

846
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:43,880
Speaker 2: because there's so many advocacy groups that are going to

847
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 2: be a part of that farm bill, fighting against the

848
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:49,720
Speaker 2: things that are probably in all of our best interest.

849
00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:54,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly. And you know your money, it's your money,

850
00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:57,440
Speaker 4: it's your money.

851
00:49:58,000 --> 00:49:59,840
Speaker 3: You like the yacht, you should like the yacht. Folks

852
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:00,600
Speaker 3: paid for it.

853
00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:04,400
Speaker 5: We recently did a panel with some folks about criminal

854
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:07,240
Speaker 5: justice reform, and there are several lawyers on the panel

855
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:09,360
Speaker 5: whose job it is to seek this kind of stuff,

856
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:12,920
Speaker 5: and they pointed out that these calls matter, that if

857
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:15,919
Speaker 5: enough people call in and it makes some noise, it's

858
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:19,160
Speaker 5: going to change the conversation. To some degree, you are

859
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:21,840
Speaker 5: not powerless. So I just think that's it's easy to

860
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:25,920
Speaker 5: feel overwhelmed and completely, you know, like your hands are tied.

861
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:27,680
Speaker 5: But these things do matter.

862
00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:31,440
Speaker 3: And they really do that agency that we all have listening.

863
00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:34,360
Speaker 3: If you're located in the United States, that is arguably

864
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:37,480
Speaker 3: another thing they don't want you to know is that

865
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:41,640
Speaker 3: it does. Your voice does matter. And there's a really

866
00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:44,720
Speaker 3: beautiful moment where you hear people in these advocacy groups

867
00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 3: inevitably say that something like what you're saying, Celeste. You know,

868
00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:52,960
Speaker 3: it might feel it might feel like you're just emptying

869
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:55,320
Speaker 3: an ocean with a bucket or spitting in the wind

870
00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:58,439
Speaker 3: when you are that one person making that one call.

871
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 3: But if we move in mo that we are not

872
00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:05,120
Speaker 3: one person, right. And I even heard no friend of

873
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:06,919
Speaker 3: mine who used to be in the bellay would say

874
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:10,120
Speaker 3: like you would you get one call, right, and then

875
00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:14,760
Speaker 3: you get twelve calls and now something has to happen,

876
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:18,200
Speaker 3: especially if they all come in a close amount of time.

877
00:51:19,239 --> 00:51:22,640
Speaker 3: So it is it is at least inspiring to know

878
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:28,200
Speaker 3: that we the public are not powerless in this situation,

879
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:32,200
Speaker 3: even though we have been brainwashed across generations I would argue.

880
00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:35,839
Speaker 2: Uh, we've been mouthwashed, We've been there.

881
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:40,239
Speaker 3: Worth it also listening Halatosi's story for another day. But

882
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:44,720
Speaker 3: we should we should absolutely talk. We would be remiss,

883
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:48,000
Speaker 3: remiss if we did not mention another project do you

884
00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:52,640
Speaker 3: have you have helmed and created that is of immense

885
00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:56,840
Speaker 3: interest to every longtime listener. Of stuff they don't want

886
00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:59,200
Speaker 3: you to know is less. Could you tell us a

887
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:01,280
Speaker 3: bit about the Freeway Phantom.

888
00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:05,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, speaking of things that you actually can do something about.

889
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:07,680
Speaker 4: I mean, that's another thing that is a message of

890
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:11,960
Speaker 4: Freeway Phantom. The Freeway Phantom is about the first serial

891
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:14,879
Speaker 4: killer in Washington, d C. That we know of, even

892
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:17,960
Speaker 4: though most people don't know about the Freeway Phantom. And

893
00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:20,840
Speaker 4: the reason we don't know about the Freeway Phantom is

894
00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:26,319
Speaker 4: because he murdered black girls in a poor and low

895
00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:29,239
Speaker 4: income neighborhoods. That's why people have never heard of him.

896
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:32,560
Speaker 4: He murdered as many people as a son of Sam

897
00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:36,479
Speaker 4: and yet these were young, I mean as young as

898
00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:42,480
Speaker 4: like ten and twelve years old black girls in low

899
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:48,880
Speaker 4: and low income neighborhoods and middle income neighborhoods in Washington,

900
00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:51,920
Speaker 4: D C. In the early nineteen seventies. He was never caught.

901
00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:59,080
Speaker 4: And the reason I say that people could have changed

902
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:03,600
Speaker 4: that is because if these murders had been given the

903
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:08,560
Speaker 4: attention that they deserved even at the time, if word

904
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:13,759
Speaker 4: had gotten out, they maybe could have kept some of

905
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:17,520
Speaker 4: these girls safe. These girls were snatched off the street

906
00:53:17,520 --> 00:53:20,080
Speaker 4: in broad daylight as they walked a block maybe two

907
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:22,600
Speaker 4: blocks away from their homes in some cases, as they

908
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:26,799
Speaker 4: were walking to the grocery store. If parents had known,

909
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:31,240
Speaker 4: these were not neglectful parents, These were not bad kids.

910
00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:34,640
Speaker 4: These were good kids in their school gym uniforms, in

911
00:53:34,719 --> 00:53:41,160
Speaker 4: their own neighborhoods. And these were lives that needed to

912
00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:45,600
Speaker 4: matter and didn't, and they were forgotten. So this is

913
00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:48,040
Speaker 4: one of the reasons why not just for me, but

914
00:53:48,120 --> 00:53:53,160
Speaker 4: for the entire team at Tenderfoot TV and at iHeart.

915
00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:56,000
Speaker 4: This is why this is so personal for us and

916
00:53:56,040 --> 00:54:00,759
Speaker 4: so important for us, is because these you need to

917
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:04,720
Speaker 4: even fifty years later, their names deserve to be said

918
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:11,280
Speaker 4: and remembered. It is important that these girls' lives matter

919
00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:13,640
Speaker 4: today as much as they did then, and that it

920
00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:22,440
Speaker 4: means something that we understand why law enforcement and every

921
00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:27,000
Speaker 4: community and every media outlet needs to take these things seriously,

922
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:31,480
Speaker 4: when a child disappears, when somebody disappears, that's important and

923
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:34,560
Speaker 4: it needs attention, and it needs immediate attention within those

924
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:38,879
Speaker 4: first twenty four hours. And that's something every neighborhood can

925
00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:42,319
Speaker 4: take part in. You know. One of the things that

926
00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:45,160
Speaker 4: that people talk about is that one of the ways

927
00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:48,360
Speaker 4: that you keep everybody safe, especially children, is by getting

928
00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:51,960
Speaker 4: to know your neighbors, learned their names, learn who lives

929
00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:55,839
Speaker 4: in those homes. That's a tiny, small thing that you

930
00:54:55,880 --> 00:54:59,440
Speaker 4: can do to keep people safe, just on your own street.

931
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:02,160
Speaker 4: So when we're talking about these little things that you

932
00:55:02,160 --> 00:55:04,520
Speaker 4: can do, that's one thing that you can do today.

933
00:55:05,160 --> 00:55:08,000
Speaker 4: Stop listen. When you stop listening here, walk down your

934
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:11,960
Speaker 4: street and learn who lives in your neighborhood. Easy, pasy done.

935
00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:16,799
Speaker 2: And like think about how that increases, Like I don't know,

936
00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:21,000
Speaker 2: the community value of just where you live. Like being

937
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:23,279
Speaker 2: able to help your neighbor if they need some help,

938
00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:25,160
Speaker 2: maybe they will help you if you need some help.

939
00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:27,160
Speaker 2: That's amazing. I love that message.

940
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:30,720
Speaker 3: Also makes things cooler too, because then you get into

941
00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:34,879
Speaker 3: like block parties and you know you can hang out,

942
00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:37,640
Speaker 3: which I love. I love hanging out anywhere where I

943
00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:39,120
Speaker 3: don't have to pay money to be there.

944
00:55:39,440 --> 00:55:40,600
Speaker 2: So that's that's cool.

945
00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:43,799
Speaker 3: That's a huge cool part of block parties for me

946
00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:48,839
Speaker 3: and barbecues. But I would say also on a little

947
00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:51,919
Speaker 3: bit more serious note about that, it does help us

948
00:55:52,719 --> 00:55:58,719
Speaker 3: clock anomalous occurrences much more quickly. Right, you know your neighbors,

949
00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:04,239
Speaker 3: you know when someone's a stranger. And that's not to

950
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:09,960
Speaker 3: you know, inculcate paranoia in everyone, but it is. It's

951
00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:12,960
Speaker 3: a form of being aware of your surroundings and sless.

952
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:15,879
Speaker 3: That also what a bookend because that also goes back

953
00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:19,440
Speaker 3: to some of your long standing work about human connection

954
00:56:19,719 --> 00:56:22,080
Speaker 3: and communication with people you know.

955
00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:22,360
Speaker 2: And I.

956
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:29,759
Speaker 3: Have to say, listening to listening to Freeway Phantom, the

957
00:56:31,040 --> 00:56:34,400
Speaker 3: infuriating thing is just as you describe, you know what

958
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:37,279
Speaker 3: I mean. They I don't know if you could say

959
00:56:37,360 --> 00:56:40,799
Speaker 3: law enforcement dropped the ball, because that would be like

960
00:56:40,880 --> 00:56:42,720
Speaker 3: saying they picked it up in the first place.

961
00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:47,960
Speaker 4: You know, to one extent, they worked hard. I mean,

962
00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:53,120
Speaker 4: I went through the boxes of evidence, They interviewed hundreds

963
00:56:53,160 --> 00:56:56,680
Speaker 4: of people, They followed they did, they followed leads, that

964
00:56:56,800 --> 00:57:00,000
Speaker 4: is absolutely the case. But they also immediately made it

965
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:02,960
Speaker 4: assumptions that these parents were neglectful. They immediately they made

966
00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:05,600
Speaker 4: assumptions that these twelve year old girls might have run

967
00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:10,000
Speaker 4: away with their boyfriends. They made comments about these girls

968
00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:14,360
Speaker 4: being wearing provocative clothing when they were in their school

969
00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:19,560
Speaker 4: gym uniforms. So yeah, did they drop the ball. Yeah.

970
00:57:19,640 --> 00:57:23,560
Speaker 4: They also took these girls' lives lightly because they were black,

971
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:27,520
Speaker 4: because they were living in poor neighborhoods. They made assumptions

972
00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:30,600
Speaker 4: about them, and then they immediately got distracted by the

973
00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:34,680
Speaker 4: Vietnam protests, which were a bunch of I don't again,

974
00:57:34,720 --> 00:57:36,720
Speaker 4: I'm not trying to stereotype, but for the most part,

975
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:42,480
Speaker 4: they were a whole lot of middle class, college white

976
00:57:42,560 --> 00:57:46,200
Speaker 4: kids protesting the war, which was important, it was absolutely important,

977
00:57:46,360 --> 00:57:51,360
Speaker 4: but it also took incredibly needed attention away from these girls'

978
00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:56,240
Speaker 4: lives who had been murdered and again he kept killing.

979
00:57:57,320 --> 00:57:59,840
Speaker 4: And if they had gotten the attention and resources that

980
00:57:59,840 --> 00:58:02,720
Speaker 4: they needed, they might have saved the girls who got

981
00:58:02,800 --> 00:58:06,200
Speaker 4: killed later and later and later and later. They could

982
00:58:06,240 --> 00:58:09,040
Speaker 4: have caught this guy and prevented him from killing yet

983
00:58:09,040 --> 00:58:12,640
Speaker 4: more girls. And this is it. Wouldn't this story wouldn't

984
00:58:12,640 --> 00:58:15,880
Speaker 4: be important. We wouldn't be doing this podcast today. If

985
00:58:15,880 --> 00:58:19,160
Speaker 4: this worn't be still, if this weren't still happening.

986
00:58:19,480 --> 00:58:22,320
Speaker 2: Yes, Now, well let's talk because I think it goes

987
00:58:22,360 --> 00:58:25,440
Speaker 2: back to community and it's a parallel full disclosure. I'm

988
00:58:25,440 --> 00:58:29,480
Speaker 2: an ep on Freeway phantom, but it's a problem I

989
00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:32,600
Speaker 2: saw with Atlanta Monster and the cases with the Atlanta

990
00:58:32,640 --> 00:58:36,720
Speaker 2: missing and murdered, where there's a distrust of those who

991
00:58:36,800 --> 00:58:41,320
Speaker 2: are supposed to be taking protecting your community right, a

992
00:58:41,360 --> 00:58:45,720
Speaker 2: complete distrust so that when even if somebody knows something

993
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:48,800
Speaker 2: and it was an eyewitness to a child being abducted,

994
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:51,400
Speaker 2: it's highly unlikely that that person is going to come

995
00:58:51,480 --> 00:58:53,960
Speaker 2: forward and actually speak with a police officer and give

996
00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:59,280
Speaker 2: that story because there's distrust between that individual and that institution.

997
00:59:02,360 --> 00:59:05,320
Speaker 2: It feels to me like that is still a major issue.

998
00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:07,160
Speaker 2: What have you found the list?

999
00:59:07,720 --> 00:59:09,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think that's also the case. And I

1000
00:59:09,800 --> 00:59:12,680
Speaker 4: forgive me, Matt May I've forgotten now how much the

1001
00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:14,320
Speaker 4: reward is up to now.

1002
00:59:15,040 --> 00:59:18,040
Speaker 2: It is now at three hundred thousand dollars because it

1003
00:59:18,080 --> 00:59:19,160
Speaker 2: was matched.

1004
00:59:19,640 --> 00:59:24,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, by iHeart and Tenderfoot Right. So the reason for

1005
00:59:24,560 --> 00:59:28,919
Speaker 4: that is because we know for sure, because we did

1006
00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:32,280
Speaker 4: these interviews with members of the community, we know that

1007
00:59:32,320 --> 00:59:35,600
Speaker 4: they did not tell the police things We know they

1008
00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:38,320
Speaker 4: didn't talk to the police. In some cases, we know

1009
00:59:38,360 --> 00:59:41,480
Speaker 4: they weren't forthcoming with the police, And so we know

1010
00:59:41,640 --> 00:59:45,040
Speaker 4: somebody knows something, and that person may still, fifty years on,

1011
00:59:45,720 --> 00:59:48,160
Speaker 4: be alive. We also know that they may not still

1012
00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:50,560
Speaker 4: be in Washington, DC, which is why it's so important

1013
00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:53,800
Speaker 4: that this podcast be heard by as many people as

1014
00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:56,479
Speaker 4: possible over the country. Maybe this person's living in Oregon. Now,

1015
00:59:57,600 --> 01:00:01,200
Speaker 4: they may be living somewhere else entirely, and we want

1016
01:00:01,240 --> 01:00:05,040
Speaker 4: them to hear this podcast and call and get in

1017
01:00:05,120 --> 01:00:08,960
Speaker 4: touch because somebody knows something and they may not realize

1018
01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:11,800
Speaker 4: that that piece of information may be exactly the piece

1019
01:00:11,840 --> 01:00:16,120
Speaker 4: of information that could bring closure to these families. And

1020
01:00:16,200 --> 01:00:20,560
Speaker 4: so that's why the reward has been doubled, because these

1021
01:00:20,600 --> 01:00:26,000
Speaker 4: families deserve to know what happened to their daughters. They

1022
01:00:26,080 --> 01:00:29,240
Speaker 4: deserve to know, you know, I mean, how horrible to

1023
01:00:29,320 --> 01:00:31,760
Speaker 4: not only lose your daughters this way and have their

1024
01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:36,360
Speaker 4: bodies discarded like garbage on the side of a road,

1025
01:00:36,720 --> 01:00:42,040
Speaker 4: but then to not actually have answers about who, why,

1026
01:00:42,960 --> 01:00:47,080
Speaker 4: what happened to them, you know, and have so little

1027
01:00:47,120 --> 01:00:51,320
Speaker 4: invested into getting those answers that fifty years on, they

1028
01:00:51,400 --> 01:00:56,840
Speaker 4: still have no resolution, and so that's why the production

1029
01:00:56,960 --> 01:01:00,800
Speaker 4: companies doubled that reward is because we know somebody knows

1030
01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:05,360
Speaker 4: something and it's worth trying. It's worth it's worth.

1031
01:01:05,160 --> 01:01:09,720
Speaker 3: Trying, agreed, And that's maybe that's the message that we

1032
01:01:10,400 --> 01:01:15,320
Speaker 3: take with us at the close of our conversation today.

1033
01:01:16,160 --> 01:01:20,160
Speaker 3: It is possible to make a difference as an individual,

1034
01:01:20,600 --> 01:01:24,040
Speaker 3: and it's not only possible, but it is one of

1035
01:01:24,160 --> 01:01:27,760
Speaker 3: the best and most noble things a person can attempt

1036
01:01:27,840 --> 01:01:31,920
Speaker 3: to do. So we want to thank you again, celest

1037
01:01:31,960 --> 01:01:36,320
Speaker 3: for all your work bringing this justice to light. You know,

1038
01:01:36,400 --> 01:01:39,160
Speaker 3: these shows are coming out back to back to back,

1039
01:01:39,560 --> 01:01:44,960
Speaker 3: so I can only imagine what crazy pandemonium your calendar

1040
01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:47,440
Speaker 3: looks like. And you've made time for us and all

1041
01:01:47,440 --> 01:01:51,000
Speaker 3: our fellow conspiracy realists. Where can people go to learn more?

1042
01:01:51,080 --> 01:01:54,400
Speaker 3: Not just about Big Sugar, not just about Freeway Phantom,

1043
01:01:54,680 --> 01:01:57,560
Speaker 3: but about all your many other projects.

1044
01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:10,800
Speaker 4: I mean, for the meantime, Twitter, maybe I have a

1045
01:02:11,280 --> 01:02:15,160
Speaker 4: I have a website, but because it's only me updating it,

1046
01:02:15,160 --> 01:02:21,080
Speaker 4: it is very irregularly updated. But yeah, the the social

1047
01:02:21,120 --> 01:02:24,120
Speaker 4: media I most likely update is Instagram, which is mostly

1048
01:02:24,160 --> 01:02:28,400
Speaker 4: pictures of my dog, and in the interim Twitter, but

1049
01:02:28,560 --> 01:02:30,400
Speaker 4: we'll see how long it takes till.

1050
01:02:30,280 --> 01:02:33,720
Speaker 2: That implodes for sure, and listen to Big Sugar and

1051
01:02:33,800 --> 01:02:36,240
Speaker 2: Freeway Phantom. You can find them wherever you get your

1052
01:02:36,240 --> 01:02:42,400
Speaker 2: podcasts or your favorite shows. Thank you, and really like

1053
01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:46,040
Speaker 2: listen to them now Freeway Phantom. I think in this moment,

1054
01:02:46,040 --> 01:02:48,680
Speaker 2: when you're hearing this episode, you can listen to every

1055
01:02:48,840 --> 01:02:51,480
Speaker 2: episode of Freeway Phantom, as well as some of the

1056
01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:53,040
Speaker 2: bonus episodes that are.

1057
01:02:52,920 --> 01:02:57,360
Speaker 3: Coming out, one of which just dropped this week. I

1058
01:02:57,440 --> 01:03:00,400
Speaker 3: believe that would be I don't even want to give

1059
01:03:00,440 --> 01:03:03,920
Speaker 3: the title because we're not going to spoil it, but yes,

1060
01:03:04,040 --> 01:03:07,560
Speaker 3: thank you so much less. We can't wait to learn

1061
01:03:07,720 --> 01:03:10,960
Speaker 3: more about Big Sugar and here's hoping we can make

1062
01:03:10,960 --> 01:03:11,680
Speaker 3: a difference.

1063
01:03:11,400 --> 01:03:13,280
Speaker 4: Here my pleasures. Thanks for having me.

1064
01:03:17,240 --> 01:03:21,400
Speaker 3: This was such a fantastic conversation. You guys know, we

1065
01:03:21,440 --> 01:03:24,240
Speaker 3: went a lot of places and for everybody listening, even

1066
01:03:24,280 --> 01:03:27,160
Speaker 3: though we talked in depth about Big Sugar in the

1067
01:03:27,160 --> 01:03:30,600
Speaker 3: sugar industry, there is so much more in the show.

1068
01:03:30,680 --> 01:03:31,880
Speaker 3: You really should check it.

1069
01:03:31,800 --> 01:03:35,120
Speaker 2: Out definitely, and also check out Freeway Phantom because there's

1070
01:03:35,680 --> 01:03:38,440
Speaker 2: I mean, it's a winding story that takes you a

1071
01:03:38,480 --> 01:03:42,080
Speaker 2: lot of different places, and there's a new profile of

1072
01:03:42,200 --> 01:03:45,000
Speaker 2: the killer inside that show, and it's worth your time.

1073
01:03:45,520 --> 01:03:48,960
Speaker 3: And we're also I guess since in full disclosure, you know,

1074
01:03:49,120 --> 01:03:53,600
Speaker 3: as you said, Matt, you ep Tenderfoot shows including Freeway Phantom.

1075
01:03:54,160 --> 01:03:59,400
Speaker 3: We also you might hear some familiar voices cameo in a.

1076
01:03:59,360 --> 01:03:59,920
Speaker 2: Couple of things.

1077
01:04:00,240 --> 01:04:01,080
Speaker 5: All of us are in.

1078
01:04:01,400 --> 01:04:04,160
Speaker 2: All of us are in Freeway fans. I think that's right.

1079
01:04:04,480 --> 01:04:06,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's a pleasure to work on and a real

1080
01:04:06,480 --> 01:04:08,439
Speaker 5: pleasure to talk to. Celast be a big fan of hers,

1081
01:04:08,440 --> 01:04:10,880
Speaker 5: as we all have for quite some time. A really

1082
01:04:11,200 --> 01:04:15,800
Speaker 5: uniquely talented journalist and storyteller, and really generous with her

1083
01:04:15,840 --> 01:04:18,600
Speaker 5: time today, so we thank her specifically, and we thank

1084
01:04:18,720 --> 01:04:22,120
Speaker 5: you for tuning in. If you want to get at

1085
01:04:22,200 --> 01:04:25,040
Speaker 5: us online, you can do so. We exist at the

1086
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Speaker 5: handle Conspiracy Stuff on Twitter and YouTube and Facebook, Conspiracy

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Speaker 5: Stuff Show on Instagram and TikTok.

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Speaker 2: If you'd like to call us with some thoughts, you can.

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Speaker 2: Our number is one eight three three st d WYTK.

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Speaker 2: You've got three minutes. It's voicemail. Give yourself a cool

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Speaker 2: name and let us know if we can use your

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Speaker 2: message and voice on the air. If you don't want

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01:04:48,080 --> 01:04:49,800
Speaker 2: to do that, why not send us a good old

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Speaker 2: fashioned email. We read everything we get.

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Speaker 7: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

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Speaker 2: Stuff they don't want you to know. Is a production

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Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

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Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.