Speaker 1: She was a born storyteller. At the age of three
Speaker 1: or four, um she would be observed holding a book
Speaker 1: in her hands, off and upside down, and she would
Speaker 1: walk back and forth and make up and create a
Speaker 1: story that her mother arranged for a play date with
Speaker 1: young friends. He would actually refuse them and insist that
Speaker 1: her mother played with him so that she could she
Speaker 1: could continue on making up. That was Susan Whistler talking
Speaker 1: about young Edith Wharton, the first woman to win the
Speaker 1: Pulitzer Prize for Literature. Wharton is the author of classics
Speaker 1: like The Age of Innocence and The House of Mirth.
Speaker 1: She created an unforgettable portrait of nineteenth century America and
Speaker 1: women's role in it. I'm a land Ververe and this
Speaker 1: is Seneca's one Women to Hear. We are bringing you
Speaker 1: one hundred of the world's most inspiring and history making
Speaker 1: women you need to hear. Edith Wharton's books continue to
Speaker 1: sell widely, even a hundred years after their publication, and
Speaker 1: they've been the source for many movies starring everyone from
Speaker 1: Betty Davis to Michelle Peiffer. But Wharton was more than
Speaker 1: a novelist. She was also a forward looking designer, of
Speaker 1: homes and gardens, and for her relief work during World
Speaker 1: War One, she was a hero to the French people.
Speaker 1: We got a fascinating insight into Wharton's life from Susan Whistler,
Speaker 1: the executive director of the Mount, the beautiful estate Wharton
Speaker 1: built in the Berkshire Mountains of Massachusetts. Listen and learn
Speaker 1: from Susan Whistler why Edith Wharton is one of Seneca's
Speaker 1: One Women to hear. I'm speaking today to Susan Whistler,
Speaker 1: the executive director of the Mount the Estate of Edith Wharton,
Speaker 1: and we're going to be speaking about Edith Wharton and
Speaker 1: her place in America's literary history and so much more. Susan,
Speaker 1: it is a wonderful pleasure to have you with us today. Well, Malan,
Speaker 1: thank you. I'm delighted to be here. Edith Wharton wrote
Speaker 1: about the world of the wealthy during the Gilded Age
Speaker 1: the late eighteen hundreds. She gave us memorable novels, including
Speaker 1: The Age of Innocence in the House of Mirth. She
Speaker 1: was the first woman to win the Pulitzer Prize for
Speaker 1: Literature for the Age of Innocence. She was also a
Speaker 1: designer and a decorator, and her passion for houses and
Speaker 1: gardens obviously comes out at the Mount when one visits.
Speaker 1: What do you think she should be remembered for? How
Speaker 1: do you see her legacy? You have an intimate engagement
Speaker 1: with her almost every day as you're there at the Mount.
Speaker 1: Well Edith Wharton, I would say, is and should probably
Speaker 1: best known for her enduring classics of the House of
Speaker 1: Mirth Ethan Frome, and also the Age of Innocence, which
Speaker 1: is probably her best known work. It's the one that
Speaker 1: one of the Pulitzer Prize when it was published in
Speaker 1: nineteen twenty, and it hit number one on the bestseller
Speaker 1: lists again in nine three, following Martin Scorsese's release of
Speaker 1: his film starring Michelle Peifer and Daniel day Lewis, which
Speaker 1: is based on the novel but Um, I would say,
Speaker 1: even though she's mostly known as a novelist, her literary
Speaker 1: legacy is actually so much bigger. Um. She wrote across
Speaker 1: many genres, including short stories, to travel books, literary essays
Speaker 1: and poetry, and her first well known and sort of
Speaker 1: I would say hit, was a book that was actually
Speaker 1: about interior design, called The Decoration of Houses. It was
Speaker 1: published in eight and it's still taught in design schools today. Um.
Speaker 1: I think she also should be remembered for taking on
Speaker 1: subject matter that I would say, even today might seem audacious.
Speaker 1: She her books and her novels addressed issues ranging from
Speaker 1: euthanasia to war um to female sexual desire, especially that
Speaker 1: of older women. And I would say that she and
Speaker 1: her works defy any easy categorization. I would say. And
Speaker 1: then of course there is, um what I think she
Speaker 1: considered her most important creation, or one of her most
Speaker 1: important creations, and that is the estate that she gotagned
Speaker 1: and build from the Berkshires, the Mount Um. And she
Speaker 1: was as proud of that as any of the literary
Speaker 1: work that she produced. Just an exceptional legacy for sure.
Speaker 1: Now you're the executive director of the Mount. Her long
Speaker 1: time state is you just mentioned in the Beautiful Berkshires
Speaker 1: And you used to practice law in New York? What
Speaker 1: got you interested in Edith Warren and how did you
Speaker 1: come to head the Mount? Well, I thank serendipity for
Speaker 1: for my journey. Um. My last legal job was actually
Speaker 1: with a firm here in the Berkshires, and Um, the
Speaker 1: partner that I was closest with unfortunately died of cancer
Speaker 1: while I was there, and it was it was a
Speaker 1: big moment in my life, and I took that opportunity
Speaker 1: to step away from the law and decided i'd really
Speaker 1: actually rather spend more time outdoors. And I spent the
Speaker 1: next couple of years as a sort of itinerant tradesperson.
Speaker 1: I was a carpenter, I did landscaping, I did painting, UM,
Speaker 1: just sort of odd jobs here and there and UM.
Speaker 1: But I was growing tired of that. It was getting
Speaker 1: a little tiring, and I certainly wasn't making a lot
Speaker 1: of money. And a friend notified me that there was
Speaker 1: an opening here at the Mount, involved with operations, and
Speaker 1: I applied on the labor day, and too, I think
Speaker 1: I applied on a Friday in two thousand one, in
Speaker 1: September and started the following Monday. And I fell in
Speaker 1: love with the property. And I have never look back.
Speaker 1: And it's hard to believe that that was nearly twenty
Speaker 1: years ago. It's an exceptional story serendipity, though it might
Speaker 1: be in terms of how you got engaged. But I
Speaker 1: think the Mount is very fortunate too, to have such
Speaker 1: an exceptional lawyer and committed leader of that beautiful place.
Speaker 1: You mentioned at the outset some of Edith's great literary achievements,
Speaker 1: And she wrote so many years ago, and yet her
Speaker 1: books remained so popular today. What do you think that's
Speaker 1: the case and and what does she tell us about
Speaker 1: the wider culture in in terms of her time and
Speaker 1: our time. Well, when Wharton was at the peak of
Speaker 1: her career, women's rights were arguably expanding, Divorce was becoming
Speaker 1: more common, more women were entering the workforce and um,
Speaker 1: and then of course the Nineteenth Amendment was ratified in
Speaker 1: nineteen nineteen. And despite all of this scene progress, a
Speaker 1: major theme in Wharton's work is how women's options remain constrictive.
Speaker 1: Marriage was often unsatisfactory, and of course women continue to
Speaker 1: be treated unequally. And I would say that is one
Speaker 1: thing that runs throughout her work that continues to resonate today.
Speaker 1: And another big theme was, I would say, the huge
Speaker 1: divide between the enormously wealthy, the one percentagers perhaps, and
Speaker 1: the working class. So I don't think it's hard to
Speaker 1: draw parallels between her time and ours, And I think
Speaker 1: the themes that she addresses in her works continue to
Speaker 1: be themes that we as individuals and as a society
Speaker 1: continued to struggle with. But I think perhaps the principal
Speaker 1: reason she remains popular is because she's just a wonderful writer,
Speaker 1: and she's got memorable characters, engaging plots, beautiful language, and
Speaker 1: I would say a clean, even muscular writing style. And
Speaker 1: so her work is has has stood the test of time,
Speaker 1: and I think a century from now we will still
Speaker 1: talking about her. It's it's so interesting, and those two
Speaker 1: things that you mentioned are certainly very much with us today.
Speaker 1: Um she lived between eighteen sixty two and nineteen thirty seven.
Speaker 1: What was happening then that had a great deal to
Speaker 1: say about shaping her and what she eventually would write about.
Speaker 1: That's a great question on um. Well, Wharton was born
Speaker 1: into the old money New York society uh or. By
Speaker 1: way of example, on the US Census, her father listed
Speaker 1: his occupation as a gentleman of leisure. So this was
Speaker 1: the world into which she was born. Her family belonged
Speaker 1: to a class of people who loved art but distrusted artists,
Speaker 1: and it was also a class that felt themselves under siege,
Speaker 1: particularly by the new money class. And because she was
Speaker 1: a bona fide member of this class, she knew it.
Speaker 1: She understood it warts and all. She knew it intimately
Speaker 1: and it provided her with terrific material for her writing. UM.
Speaker 1: She was also heavily influenced by European culture as a child.
Speaker 1: Edith had spent much of her life in Europe, mainly
Speaker 1: in France, Germany and Italy, and it was there that
Speaker 1: she developed both her gifts for languages, but also a
Speaker 1: deep appreciation for beauty. UH. She loved art, architecture, and literature,
Speaker 1: and this is where all of those passions were ignited. UM.
Speaker 1: I would also say that she had an incredible intellectual
Speaker 1: curiosity and that drove her to read just an extraordinary
Speaker 1: range of books, not just literature, but she also was
Speaker 1: fascinated by science and philosophy and religion, and her library
Speaker 1: here at the Mount actually includes multiple copies of her
Speaker 1: books by Darwin, whose works and theories were of course
Speaker 1: hotly debated in the day. UM. So those were some
Speaker 1: of the forces in terms of events that shaped your life.
Speaker 1: I would say World War One was perhaps the most influential. UM.
Speaker 1: From nineteen fourteen to nineteen eighteen, she wasn't was in France,
Speaker 1: in Paris, and she devoted herself to creating a complex,
Speaker 1: really extensive network with charitable and humanitarian organizations that included
Speaker 1: work rooms for the unemployed, convalescent homes for people with berculosis.
Speaker 1: She created hospitals for refugees and schools for children and UM.
Speaker 1: She also wrote extensively about the war. She was one
Speaker 1: of a handful journalists that was actually allowed to UH
Speaker 1: report from the front lines, and her work was so
Speaker 1: extensive that UM in nineteen sixteen she was actually awarded
Speaker 1: the French Legion of loner UM. And I would say
Speaker 1: mentioned one last thing that I would say was a
Speaker 1: big force on her life. UM. During her lifetime, they
Speaker 1: were incredible social, economic, and needed technological changes. UM. So
Speaker 1: she went from a horse and buggy era to air travel.
Speaker 1: And I would say this progress affected her deeply and
Speaker 1: can be seen in her writing. And by the time
Speaker 1: she's in the nineteen twenties, she was actually quite dismayed
Speaker 1: at what she saw as the commercialization of popular culture UM.
Speaker 1: And she wrote about this in in her novels. So
Speaker 1: in the Children, for example, she makes fun of Hollywood
Speaker 1: in the movie industry. In Hudson Riverbracketed, she she goes
Speaker 1: after the publishing industry and and specifically the Pulitzer Prise.
Speaker 1: And then in Twilight Sleep, which is one of her
Speaker 1: last novels, she turns her pen scuba modern medicine and
Speaker 1: the wonder pills that were on the wage of the day.
Speaker 1: She was such an interesting and complicated personality. Obviously, I
Speaker 1: wonder listening to your description of her and what shaped her.
Speaker 1: It sounds like she could have done any number of things.
Speaker 1: Why did she become a writer? Oh? Um? Well, as
Speaker 1: she was born a writer. I think she she had
Speaker 1: no choice but to be him a writer. She was
Speaker 1: a born storyteller, so even before she could read, she
Speaker 1: writes her memoir that she would engage in an exercise
Speaker 1: or an activity that she called making up. And so
Speaker 1: you know, at the age of three or four, um
Speaker 1: she would be observed holding a book in her hands
Speaker 1: off an upside down and she would walk back and
Speaker 1: forth and make up and create a story. Um with
Speaker 1: her mother arranged for a play date with um uh
Speaker 1: young friends, she would actually refuse them and insist that
Speaker 1: her mother play with him so that she could she
Speaker 1: could continue on making up. So the storytelling piece came
Speaker 1: to her naturally, and I think she was driven right,
Speaker 1: which is not to say that it was easy. Um.
Speaker 1: Her family I believe was a little bit in awe
Speaker 1: of the sort of a natural and sort of driven
Speaker 1: nature of Edith to too right, and they ordered her
Speaker 1: as a young girl. In fact, um Wharton's first book,
Speaker 1: first published book, was the book of poems that she
Speaker 1: wrote at the age of sixteen, and her mother actually
Speaker 1: undertook the private publication of that. So I think they
Speaker 1: were quite proud of her. But once she was a
Speaker 1: woman of a certain age where the expectations were that
Speaker 1: she was to marry and settle down, UM, I would say,
Speaker 1: the tables turned for her, and um, at the age
Speaker 1: of twenty one, she is engaged to a young man.
Speaker 1: The engagement was broken for very complicated reasons, and the
Speaker 1: newspapers actually report that the engagement was called off because
Speaker 1: Wharton was an ambitious authoress and too intellectual, and that
Speaker 1: was a huge humiliation for her. UM. And as she
Speaker 1: even as she became you know, critically and a critical
Speaker 1: and popular success, UM, she was often not taken seriously
Speaker 1: as a writer. She was frequently dismissed as either just
Speaker 1: a pale imitation of Henry James, who was a good friend,
Speaker 1: or as someone who's worked with trivial because they were
Speaker 1: only concerned with the rich. And this was despite her
Speaker 1: having often written stories with working class protagonists. UM. I
Speaker 1: would say at least a third of her works deal
Speaker 1: with people who are not of the of the wealthy class.
Speaker 1: Sounds like some of the criticisms that were lobbed against
Speaker 1: her continue in varying ways today against women. That criticism
Speaker 1: of being just too intellectual strikes me as one for sure. UM.
Speaker 1: And I just love that image that you painted of
Speaker 1: her as a child holding a book upside down, uh,
Speaker 1: and storytelling as as she's pacing around. So I think
Speaker 1: you're so right. It does sound so much like she
Speaker 1: was born to be a writer. Speaking of her work,
Speaker 1: The Age of Innocence celebrated its hundredth anniversary last year.
Speaker 1: What's the story behind that book? For listeners who are
Speaker 1: not familiar with it, The Age of Innocence was written
Speaker 1: in nineteen twenty, after World War One, and um after
Speaker 1: the death of many of Warton's closest friends, including Henry
Speaker 1: James and Teddy Roosevelt. UM. And it is set uh,
Speaker 1: not in the twenties, but in the eighteen seventies. And
Speaker 1: it is I would say both um, homage too, and
Speaker 1: a critique of the society that you grew up in.
Speaker 1: Um And it was a book that she didn't want
Speaker 1: to write. Her previous book was a war, a war novel,
Speaker 1: and it had the misfortune of coming out just as
Speaker 1: the war was ending and the public was basically sick
Speaker 1: of war stories and um and but she wanted to
Speaker 1: write another one, and her publisher said, no, we need
Speaker 1: another sort of House of Mirth, like uh, novel of matters.
Speaker 1: And so she needed money she by that time and
Speaker 1: purchased a couple of houses in France and um and
Speaker 1: so she actually penn The House of Mirth in I
Speaker 1: think a little less than a year and um. In
Speaker 1: many ways, I would say it is the most autobiographical novel,
Speaker 1: and it involves three major characters. It's kind of a
Speaker 1: love trying the story. There's a gentleman new and Archer,
Speaker 1: and then there is the very mysterious and somewhat socially
Speaker 1: disgraced because she's divorced, Countess Elena Lensta. And then there's
Speaker 1: Maywell and the sort of perfect product of New York
Speaker 1: society woman who knew and is expected to wed and um. Anyway,
Speaker 1: it's a it's it's basically a love story and it
Speaker 1: but again it is in many ways autobiographical. UM. And
Speaker 1: I'll just draw maybe attention to a couple of the
Speaker 1: reasons why I say this. Um. Ellen Olenska is probably
Speaker 1: the most obvious person based on Edith Wharton's character. Ellen
Speaker 1: and Edith were both very comfortable and felt at home
Speaker 1: in Europe Um not just because they grew up there,
Speaker 1: but also because they were both very sophisticated women. They
Speaker 1: were equally at home with fashion and as well as
Speaker 1: part um. Both Ellen Olenska and Edith Wharton had a
Speaker 1: husband who seized their fortune and spent it on the
Speaker 1: mistresses um. In the novel, one of the reasons the
Speaker 1: Lenska has returned to New York is because her husband
Speaker 1: um uh Is has embezzled her money and was also
Speaker 1: not poriously unfaithful. That fits that description also fits edith
Speaker 1: husband Teddy to a te Um. He behaved very badly.
Speaker 1: He embezzled about over fifty thou dollars of the money,
Speaker 1: which would be about one and a half million dollars today,
Speaker 1: and speculated poorly in the stock market, and also purchased
Speaker 1: the house in Boston. The House of Mistress Um and
Speaker 1: both in the novel and Wharton in real life, Ultimately
Speaker 1: they leave their husbands and live alone in Paris and
Speaker 1: apartments where Um the pass a mare, and they both
Speaker 1: entertain a steady stream of frenchise society. So there are
Speaker 1: very many similarities between Wharton and Eleanor Leinska. But there
Speaker 1: are also similarities between Wharton and Newland Archer, and Newland
Speaker 1: represents who Warton might have been had she remained in
Speaker 1: New York and not escaped all of the bonds and
Speaker 1: shackles of the expectations that her class put upon her.
Speaker 1: Um the young Newland Archer and Edith are both undeniably similar.
Speaker 1: They both are very much a part of society. They
Speaker 1: attend the opera, they go with dinners and balls, They
Speaker 1: participate in all the activities of old New York um Um.
Speaker 1: And despite these useful represemblances, their adult lives take very
Speaker 1: different has. By the end of the novel, knew in
Speaker 1: this fifty seven, and that's the same age Wharton was
Speaker 1: when she was writing it. And this new one is
Speaker 1: very different from from Wharton. The office, Uh, he is
Speaker 1: no longer friends with writers, He no longer is dreaming
Speaker 1: of making art and intellectual conversation central to his life. Uh. Instead,
Speaker 1: just like everyone else in his social circle, he is
Speaker 1: governed by convention in the following tradition, and in the
Speaker 1: last pages of the novel, as he reflects back on
Speaker 1: his life, he realizes that he is sunk deep into
Speaker 1: a rut. And Wharton, on the other hand, avoided all
Speaker 1: of these ruts because her insatiable curiosity never left her
Speaker 1: and um and chief at the end of her life
Speaker 1: is in Paris and in the south of France, where
Speaker 1: artists and literature and clever conversation are just a steady
Speaker 1: diet in her life. And this is probably more information
Speaker 1: than you want, but I did want to spend a
Speaker 1: little moment on May. Uh the betrothed to Newland, and
Speaker 1: May is the woman that high society included including Wharton's husband,
Speaker 1: probably expected and wanted wanted Warton to be. And while
Speaker 1: for many years he was able to pull off the
Speaker 1: dual role dual role of dutiful wife and bestselling author,
Speaker 1: eventually it became too much for her and she abandons
Speaker 1: her wifely duties and leaves Teddy and ultimately divorces him.
Speaker 1: So the age of Innocence, I think, is a novel
Speaker 1: that can be read many times, and each time you
Speaker 1: read it you'll get something different. And one of the
Speaker 1: I think most brilliant aspects of the novel is that
Speaker 1: it is written from the perspective of the male Newland archer.
Speaker 1: And as you read the novel, perhaps the first time
Speaker 1: you read it you don't realize it, but certainly on
Speaker 1: the second and third reading, you realize that he is
Speaker 1: a completely unreliable narrator and um and you can't at
Speaker 1: one he he is misinterpreting signs and clues that that
Speaker 1: come before him as the plot unfolds, and in many
Speaker 1: ways is completely clueless. And the women in the story
Speaker 1: who are portrayed on the first reads perhaps lesser characters,
Speaker 1: are actually the brilliant ones. Well, speaking of brilliant, Susan,
Speaker 1: I feel like you're brilliant, professor of literature with that
Speaker 1: extraordinary answer, and it is enough. I think UH listeners
Speaker 1: will agree to have us all go out and pick
Speaker 1: up The Age of Innocence and read it, either for
Speaker 1: the first time or for the second or third time.
Speaker 1: As you pointed out, senecas one hundred women to hear
Speaker 1: will be back after the short break. Let's talk about
Speaker 1: the mount a little bit where you spend so much
Speaker 1: of your time. Warton designed and built it in nineteen
Speaker 1: o two for people who haven't been there, and I
Speaker 1: have recently been there for the second time, and it
Speaker 1: is just a beautiful and remarkable place. Tell us how
Speaker 1: she made it happen, how it reflects who she is, because,
Speaker 1: just speaking for myself, when you walk through that front door,
Speaker 1: you walk into a world onto itself in terms of
Speaker 1: its beauty and everything it represents about her. She came
Speaker 1: to the Virture's Um. This is probably one good thing
Speaker 1: that her husband Teddy did, is Teddy's family actually summered
Speaker 1: in the Berkshire's and that is how she came to
Speaker 1: to know to know the Berkshire's um. Wharton's family watering
Speaker 1: their their their summer place was in Newport. And while
Speaker 1: Wharton loved Newport as a child when she was free
Speaker 1: to play tennis or swim, or sale or ride, once
Speaker 1: she was a young married woman uh the again, the
Speaker 1: expectations of entertainment, either being entertained or to entertained proved
Speaker 1: too great for her and um and she was all
Speaker 1: of her time that she had hoped to devote to writing,
Speaker 1: was taken up with societal duties, and so in nineteen
Speaker 1: o one she and Teddy decide to leave Newport and
Speaker 1: Wharton comes to the Berkshire's Uh they find a beautiful
Speaker 1: one acre property which had been previously farmland, and they
Speaker 1: purchase it. We've got a wonderful photograph, the historic photograph
Speaker 1: of Petty and Edith, and they were both huge dog lovers,
Speaker 1: and they're like three little dogs, and they're all standing
Speaker 1: on this rocky mound, pointing as if this is they're
Speaker 1: they're they're telling the person who's taking the photograph, this
Speaker 1: is the place, this is what where we are going
Speaker 1: to build our home and UM. Wharton had a huge
Speaker 1: interest in both architecture and landscape design, and so she
Speaker 1: was involved heavily in every aspect of the construction of
Speaker 1: the State and Um. She intended that it would be
Speaker 1: a home that would meet all of her needs, both
Speaker 1: as a designer, as a gardener, as a hostess, and
Speaker 1: most importantly as a writer. So one of the most
Speaker 1: distinguishing features of the mount there are there are a few.
Speaker 1: One is that it is built far far away from
Speaker 1: the roads. It's not even visible from any of the
Speaker 1: main highways or arteries, and that's because she really wanted
Speaker 1: it to be a retreat. It was not built to
Speaker 1: be a symbol of her wealth, though at that point
Speaker 1: she was a very successful writer and her wealth was considerable.
Speaker 1: It was meant to be a place where she could
Speaker 1: retire from society, should she choose. It was also it's
Speaker 1: also a very it's a very beautiful and elegant house,
Speaker 1: but in terms of the number of people that it
Speaker 1: will accommodate, it's actually quite small. The dining room is
Speaker 1: designed to seat six, and there are only two guest bedrooms.
Speaker 1: And so it was again it's primary purpose was to
Speaker 1: entertain at most your most intimate friends, and then also
Speaker 1: to give her a place where she could create. Um.
Speaker 1: She was very proud of the mount Um. She there's
Speaker 1: a nineteen o nineteen o six letter that she writes
Speaker 1: to her lover Morton Fullerton, where she actually says, and
Speaker 1: I know this line my heart, but quote decidedly, I'm
Speaker 1: a better landscape gardener than novelist. And this place, every
Speaker 1: line of which is my own work, far surpasses the
Speaker 1: House of Mirth. And just to put that in context,
Speaker 1: the House of Mirth was the runaway bestseller of nineteen
Speaker 1: o five. It was published I think in October, and
Speaker 1: in the remaining months of the year it out sold
Speaker 1: by enormous amounts every other novel that had been published
Speaker 1: that that in that in that year. So um. The
Speaker 1: Wharton's unfortunately only lived at the Mount for ten years,
Speaker 1: but it was a transformational decade for for Edith. Um.
Speaker 1: She had many professional triumphs and much emotional turmoil. Um. Uh.
Speaker 1: It was during her period at the Amount that Um
Speaker 1: Teddy's mental instability really began to take hold. I think um.
Speaker 1: It was probably not easy for Teddy to be Edith
Speaker 1: Wharton's husband. He was not her intellectual peer and um
Speaker 1: and he had really not a lot to bring to
Speaker 1: the table. And as she grew more and more financially
Speaker 1: successful and independent, I think he um, he began to
Speaker 1: resent it and uh, and that resentment began to manifest
Speaker 1: itself in ways that we're not not healthy or good
Speaker 1: for either either of them. Well, she clearly thought seriously,
Speaker 1: and that description that you you posed, that comparative with
Speaker 1: the House of Mirth to her own house. She cared
Speaker 1: about interior design, clearly, she cared about gardens. She cared
Speaker 1: about decorations, she wrote about it. How would you describe
Speaker 1: her design philosophy if she had one. Oh, she certainly
Speaker 1: had a design philosophy. And um, what she was advocating for,
Speaker 1: and it is the basic premise of her book, The
Speaker 1: Decoration of Houses is a return to what she termed
Speaker 1: as the classical style that you would find in Europe,
Speaker 1: characterized by symmetry, balance and proportion. Those were the three
Speaker 1: the three main tenets of any good design. And um,
Speaker 1: you had to pay close attention to how houses and
Speaker 1: gardens were to be used. Um. She grew up in
Speaker 1: the Victorian era. Uh. And then I would say that
Speaker 1: Victorian era was characterized by houses that were over upholstered,
Speaker 1: over draperied, full of bric a brac and um. And
Speaker 1: they also gave rise to what were sort of very
Speaker 1: ostentatious properties of the newly rich who built their houses
Speaker 1: to basically show and flaunt their wealth. Um. And they
Speaker 1: the big houses of the guild of there. Of the
Speaker 1: Berkshire cottages, I would say many of them, uh put
Speaker 1: a greater value in how showy they were versus how
Speaker 1: functional they were. And for Wharton, Um, she was always
Speaker 1: very accumul at tuned to the fact that houses are
Speaker 1: in fact, first and foremost meant who lived in UM.
Speaker 1: She also felt that the house, the gardens, and the
Speaker 1: landscape should all be in harmony, and that the transition
Speaker 1: between one and the other should be gradual. But the
Speaker 1: harmonious component was not unlike a great work of art,
Speaker 1: and that is how she viewed house and landscape design.
Speaker 1: Beautifully said, Now, you've had a major impact on the
Speaker 1: mountain in many ways, but one was certainly to retire
Speaker 1: its debt, which was no small feat UM in two
Speaker 1: thousand and fifteen. That was really extraordinary, UM. And you
Speaker 1: have managed to get some of Wharton's books a return
Speaker 1: to the library where they have their special place. Now
Speaker 1: tell us about that and why those books are so important. Oh,
Speaker 1: another wonderful question. Long thank you, UM. The books. Yes,
Speaker 1: we have all that what we believed to be UM,
Speaker 1: perhaps not all, but the majority of what remains of
Speaker 1: Wharton's own original library. It's about volumes. We know that
Speaker 1: her her full library was actually far more extensive than
Speaker 1: that UM. She bequeathed it to Godsons. Half of it
Speaker 1: ended up being destroyed in the war as it was
Speaker 1: waiting on the docks of London to be shipped to
Speaker 1: America for safety. But the other half um was bequeathed
Speaker 1: to the son of Sir Kenneth Clark, the great historian,
Speaker 1: and they sort of languished and were protected throughout the
Speaker 1: war in Saltwood Castle, which was out in the English countryside.
Speaker 1: And and thanks they ended up in the hands of
Speaker 1: a bookseller who became so fascinated with Edith Wharton that
Speaker 1: he spent probably thirty years of his life trying to
Speaker 1: continue to collect what I would call the orphans and
Speaker 1: the strays that had been perhaps loaned by the Clarks
Speaker 1: out to other people. And he tried. He was very
Speaker 1: keen on making sure that the collection remained together as
Speaker 1: a whole. And the reason why he was so keen
Speaker 1: on that is because Wharton was a very active reader,
Speaker 1: and she she annotated her books. She wrote notes in
Speaker 1: the fly leafs, she underscored, she used exclamations. When you
Speaker 1: look at all of these markings, it's like you are
Speaker 1: reading the book with her alongside her, and it just
Speaker 1: tells you so much. Um. She also the books. Many
Speaker 1: of the books are gifts from some of her closest friends, uh.
Speaker 1: For example, Teddy Roosevelt and Henry James and their infamite
Speaker 1: inscriptions as they gifted books to her UH tells us
Speaker 1: a lot. It gives insights into the nature of their relationship,
Speaker 1: for example, how much humor UH there was in the
Speaker 1: kind of repartee that Wharton had, particularly with Henry James,
Speaker 1: but also also with Petty Roosevelt. UM and uh. And
Speaker 1: so we really consider the books as um as the
Speaker 1: heart and soul of the property. And they also attest
Speaker 1: to the incredible breadth of Wharton's curiosity. UM. In addition
Speaker 1: to literature, gardening, travel, UM, there are numerous volumes on history, philosophy, religion,
Speaker 1: and science UM and it and the breadth of the books,
Speaker 1: I mean, we have books that she was given as
Speaker 1: a child, that were given to her by her brothers
Speaker 1: um uh you know, for Christmas. And then we also
Speaker 1: have the books that she was reading, you know, within
Speaker 1: months of her death. And we know that because the
Speaker 1: publication date of the book was, you know, just two
Speaker 1: months prior to her prior to her dying. And UM.
Speaker 1: So it's been just an incredible tool in in deepening
Speaker 1: our understanding of what UM, I would say, her personality
Speaker 1: practically springs from the pages and uh and so it's
Speaker 1: just a wealth of information for the next generation of
Speaker 1: scholars and and storytellers. And we actually are regularly welcoming
Speaker 1: scholars who come to peer through the pages to see
Speaker 1: what what little tidbits of information they might be able
Speaker 1: to bleed. It's really a very very special part of
Speaker 1: the house. To see those annotated books and to read
Speaker 1: the inscriptions. You do feel like you're learning something that
Speaker 1: nobody else knows. It's really an insight into her. So
Speaker 1: congratulations on being able to get those books returned so
Speaker 1: that they could be at the mount today. We are
Speaker 1: closely running out of time, and I wanted to just
Speaker 1: ask about one of the aspects of her life that's
Speaker 1: really less well known. You alluded several times to her
Speaker 1: years in France. She lived there before World War One,
Speaker 1: she worked with the Red Cross during the war. She
Speaker 1: was even awarded the French Legion of Honor. Um. What
Speaker 1: was it about her devotion to France and what it
Speaker 1: meant to her? Well, Um, I think the love of
Speaker 1: France probably was seated deeply in Edith when she was
Speaker 1: a child, So from the age of four to ten,
Speaker 1: the Whartons spent most of their time traveling around Europe. Uh.
Speaker 1: And she spent a great deal of time living in
Speaker 1: France as well as Germany and Italy. And she was
Speaker 1: fluent in French, and she was deeply engrossed in and
Speaker 1: I would say influenced by French literature. So her library
Speaker 1: includes all the French greats from balls Act of Voltaire, um,
Speaker 1: and so huge impact there. UM. But I think it
Speaker 1: actually was probably um World War One that really cemented
Speaker 1: her love for France and the French people. When the
Speaker 1: war breaks out, she's actually in England looking at a
Speaker 1: property to possibly purchase, and um, there's some just really
Speaker 1: beautiful letters that talks about the anguish that she feels
Speaker 1: because she's unable to return because the borders have closed
Speaker 1: and uh. And it takes her several weeks or maybe
Speaker 1: even several months before she's actually admitted back into the country,
Speaker 1: and she's just absolutely horrified by the by the carnage
Speaker 1: and the and the devastation and um. And then of
Speaker 1: course nineteen fourteen to nineteen eighteen she throws herself into
Speaker 1: humanitarian work on the part of France and the French
Speaker 1: and I think, UM, I think that's where her her
Speaker 1: love and her loyalties shifted. And I also think she
Speaker 1: never was that comfortable in in the United States. She
Speaker 1: she hated Um, she hated New York, she thought it
Speaker 1: was deplorably. She did not feel accepted in Boston, where
Speaker 1: she was being too fashionable. And she just loved the
Speaker 1: layout and the architecture and the sensibilities of the European cities,
Speaker 1: at particularly Paris. And so I think that's why Um.
Speaker 1: And then, of course towards the I would say, in
Speaker 1: the latter third of her life after the war, Um
Speaker 1: she is continuing to write prolifically, but I would say
Speaker 1: her first passion at that point becomes gardening. And she
Speaker 1: purchases this amazing ancient wreck of the chateau on the Riviera,
Speaker 1: and Um purchases an entire hillside that goes with it,
Speaker 1: and then throws herself into into gardening, and is um
Speaker 1: credited in part with actually creating the Mediterranean garden. The
Speaker 1: English were starting to settle on the south of France.
Speaker 1: The French had no particular interest in gardens, but the
Speaker 1: English had a passion for it. And so she developed
Speaker 1: a small group of very close friends and they took
Speaker 1: the Mediterranean garden to tell they really put it on
Speaker 1: the map as a as a as a as a
Speaker 1: genre of gardening. UM. So that that that also, I
Speaker 1: think was important. And I believe she felt that France
Speaker 1: um where women and men engaged in society and conversation together. Uh,
Speaker 1: that France had more respect for women and educated them
Speaker 1: actually better than America did. And so I think she
Speaker 1: felt in some ways that the French were in were
Speaker 1: superior to the to the Americans in terms of how
Speaker 1: they organized and structured their lives. Well, I regret that
Speaker 1: we can't keep talking about Edith for hours more because
Speaker 1: she is both a fascinating figure and you are wonderfully
Speaker 1: descriptive in giving us insights into who she was and
Speaker 1: what she did. A before we let you go, Susan,
Speaker 1: how can listeners visit them out? Um? Do you have
Speaker 1: ongoing events and programs? And if you do, how can
Speaker 1: we learn about them? We are open every day, seven
Speaker 1: days a week between now and the end of October,
Speaker 1: and then we are open on weekends. We've got a
Speaker 1: wonderful website, Edith Wharton dot go rg uh. There are
Speaker 1: numerous ways you can experience the site. You can take
Speaker 1: a guided tour with a person, you can take a
Speaker 1: self guided tour, or you can UM, or you can
Speaker 1: take an audio tour. UM. We have a beautiful cafe
Speaker 1: on our terrace which you can enjoy sort of good
Speaker 1: food and incredible views. And then we also have just
Speaker 1: UM an ongoing roster of programs that include a sculpture
Speaker 1: exhibit across about fifty acres thirty large scaled contemporary pieces.
Speaker 1: We have a lecture series that runs through the end
Speaker 1: of August. We have concerts UH regularly. UM. We often
Speaker 1: have theatrical performances. I think we've got an opera performance scheduled.
Speaker 1: There will be a spoken word festival in September, UM
Speaker 1: and UH. Starting in November, we will be launching the
Speaker 1: second year of Knighthood, which is an immersive sound and
Speaker 1: light show that you can experience through the grounds and
Speaker 1: that that is incredible and UM. But again, the best
Speaker 1: way to UM to figure out and plan your trip
Speaker 1: is to visit our website and to sign up for
Speaker 1: our e newsletter, and you could also follow us on
Speaker 1: social media. We have a hashtag at the Mount Lenox. Well.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Susan Whistler for this just wonderful conversation,
Speaker 1: your great ability to enable us to come to know
Speaker 1: and be much smarter about that great literary giant, Edith Wharton.
Speaker 1: And thank you too for what you've been doing over
Speaker 1: the last many years to make the mount come alive
Speaker 1: and be that very special place that it is. It's
Speaker 1: so great to have had you with us today. Thank you, Milan,
Speaker 1: Thank you. This has been lots of fun and I
Speaker 1: hope I haven't talked too much now. It's been terrific.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. I learned so much about Edith
Speaker 1: Wharton and talking to the remarkable Susan Whistler. Here are
Speaker 1: three things I took from that conversation. First, Edith Wharton
Speaker 1: remains popular today, more than a hundred years after publication
Speaker 1: of her most famous novels and no Wonder. She writes
Speaker 1: about women trying to find their way in a culture
Speaker 1: that wants to constrain them, and about the expectations are
Speaker 1: friends and family place on all of us. Her novels
Speaker 1: are compelling and timeless. Second, it's also worth looking at
Speaker 1: the other side of Edith Wharton, the house and garden designer.
Speaker 1: Check out a copy of her even Design manual, The
Speaker 1: Decoration of houses for guidelines that never go out of style. Finally,
Speaker 1: if you're on the East Coast, try to visit the Mount,
Speaker 1: the magnificent estate that Edith Wharton built in Lenox, Massachusetts.
Speaker 1: Besides touring the house and grounds, you can enjoy nature walks, lectures,
Speaker 1: sculpture exhibits, music, and even lunch on the beautiful Terrorists.
Speaker 1: To learn more, visit Edith Wharton dot org. Tune in
Speaker 1: next Tuesday to learn about our next featured woman and
Speaker 1: discover why she's one of Seneca's one Women to Hear.
Speaker 1: Seneca's one hundred Women to Hear is a collaboration between
Speaker 1: the Seneca Women Podcast Network and I Heart Radio, with
Speaker 1: support from founding partner Pung. Have a great Day,