1 00:00:01,800 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: Also media, Hello everyone, and welcome to It Could Happen 2 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:10,399 Speaker 1: Here podcast, returning from our holiday break to discuss the 3 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 1: exciting topic of infectious diseases in Gaza, and for that 4 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: we're joined by an all star cast of experts. We 5 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:22,680 Speaker 1: have joining us today Saskia Popescu, who's an infectious disease 6 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 1: epidemiologist and assistant professor at the University of Maryland. 7 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 2: Welcome Saska, Thank. 8 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:28,840 Speaker 1: You for joining us. 9 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 3: Thanks so much for having me. 10 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, of course, yeah, you're welcome. It's not just you. 11 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 1: We've also got Cave carves back, come back baby. 12 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 4: It's actually my first time. This is Sharene. Also, i'm here. 13 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 4: This is my first time meeting cave so this is 14 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:45,880 Speaker 4: a real trick. 15 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, I've done you wrong, Sharen, I'm sorry I 16 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 1: didn't introduce you. 17 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 4: That's okay, it's probably in the description or something that 18 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 4: I'm here. 19 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 1: No one, Yeah, make a valuable contributions. People will know 20 00:00:57,080 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: you're here. 21 00:00:57,480 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 2: But yeah, it's it's all of us. 22 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 1: And yeah, we talked today because like I think the origin, 23 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 1: sorry of this particular episode is that, like a few 24 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: weeks ago, there was a very funny thing on the 25 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:12,959 Speaker 1: internet about people in the i d F getting diarrhea, 26 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: which is funny. 27 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 4: Object what the d i F stands for? 28 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 2: Actually, all the kids are saying, but sorry, no, it's funny. 29 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:27,399 Speaker 5: Don't you ever apologize? Yeah, you do, not apologize for. 30 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:30,759 Speaker 4: You any opportunity just to ship on them. 31 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:33,199 Speaker 3: You're good. 32 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, expect many. It's half an hour at least of this. 33 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 1: Don't be driving because you might laugh too much and crash. 34 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 1: But no, it's very funny. It's the name of our 35 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: group chat it's as Ready Diarrhea Forces. But aside from that, 36 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 1: like this raises a more important question, right, which is 37 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 1: that people in Gaza don't have access to very many 38 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 1: medical supplies to begin with. 39 00:01:57,520 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 2: Were things are. 40 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 1: Embargoed like torny K's which is spoken out in this 41 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 1: podcast before. They also have obviously a very resource constrained 42 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 1: environment to begin with, and then a number of their 43 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 1: hospitals have been bombed since then, which obviously further reduces 44 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:14,799 Speaker 1: their access to medical care. Also, they have less acklos 45 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 1: to things like running water now because they're being bombed 46 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:22,240 Speaker 1: to an incredible degree. And so Saskia has joined us 47 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:25,360 Speaker 1: today to like explain the risk of the spread of 48 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:28,079 Speaker 1: infectious disease, maybe give us an update on like what's 49 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:30,920 Speaker 1: already happening and the risks of what could happen. So 50 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 1: I guess maybe we should start off with really basic 51 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 1: stuff and explain what infectious diseases are and like how 52 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:40,359 Speaker 1: they're different from non communical diseases gets people aren't familiar, 53 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 1: would one if you like to do that. 54 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm happy to. So infectious diseases, you know, when 55 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 3: we talk about diseases in general, as you mentioned, there 56 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 3: are chronic diseases, things like diabetes, cancer. When we talk 57 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:54,639 Speaker 3: about infectious diseases, meaning they're communicable for the most part, 58 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 3: that means that they are spread through various sources human 59 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:01,800 Speaker 3: to human, like influenza. There's things like anthrax that you 60 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 3: can equali Campelobacter that you can get from soil, from food, 61 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:11,639 Speaker 3: and the zoonotic diseases that they are also spread through animals, 62 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 3: so things like Ebola mirors which is Middle East respiratory 63 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:21,359 Speaker 3: syndrome coronavirus. So infectious diseases are viruses, bacteria, fungi, parasites, 64 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 3: and they really love to take advantage of high stress 65 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 3: environments for bread and unfortunately this is one of them. 66 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 3: So this is a very what we see with infectious diseases. 67 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 3: A lot is that conflict and environments where people are stressed, 68 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 3: resources are stressed, and the environment is under a continuous bombardment. 69 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 3: There's densely populated spaces, no access to health, clean food, 70 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 3: and water, et cetera. I mean, I could probably go 71 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 3: on for five minutes about what makes an infectious disease spread, 72 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 3: is going to amplify it. So these are diseases that 73 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 3: take advantage of these environments. 74 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 5: I'll add that the situation is just a perfect setup 75 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 5: for infectious disease to run rampant. There's over one point 76 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 5: nine million people that have been displaced. Of that, one 77 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 5: point four million are living in overcrowded shelters at this point. 78 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:19,280 Speaker 5: And in the best scenario from what I've seen, there's 79 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:22,160 Speaker 5: one toilet for every two hundred and twenty people. Now, 80 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:23,719 Speaker 5: if you ever lived in like a house of like 81 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:27,839 Speaker 5: five people and there's like one case of diarrhea, you'll 82 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:30,839 Speaker 5: realize how terrible that is. Now you amplify that to 83 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 5: two hundred and twenty at the minimum, and that's the 84 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 5: best case scenario. I've heard its highest one per seven 85 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:38,719 Speaker 5: hundred people in some places. And then you know, people 86 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 5: have to go in the streets, they have to go 87 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:43,679 Speaker 5: where there's water supplies, and you're going to be infecting 88 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 5: those areas. There's one shower for every like four five 89 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:49,679 Speaker 5: hundred people again in best case scenario. So it's a 90 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 5: huge number of people getting concentrated into smaller and smaller 91 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 5: areas and without the infrastructure there to handle that in 92 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 5: any way. And when that happens, I mean, we are 93 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 5: going to see I am really worried about seeing in 94 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:07,159 Speaker 5: the end of this more depth from infectious disease than 95 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:08,600 Speaker 5: from the bombardments. 96 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, well, that's that's like a it almost feels like 97 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:16,600 Speaker 4: a double another weapon that they're that that they're that 98 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 4: they've used because they're not letting them have a chance 99 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 4: to recuperate or have a sanitary place to do surgeries 100 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:27,479 Speaker 4: or anything. Because if they're doing surgery with unsanitary conditions, 101 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:29,720 Speaker 4: they can get infect like the wounds can get it affected, 102 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 4: and that's a whole nother thing, or even just like 103 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 4: having waste in the street, like making it like having 104 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:39,359 Speaker 4: it fester. It just it's it's really I think people 105 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 4: forget that it's not just like a building was destroyed 106 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:47,839 Speaker 4: or people were killed. It's there's lasting effects that linger 107 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 4: for probably generations. You know, it's just it's just I 108 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 4: don't know. It really is infuriating. 109 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 3: I think the crazy part is the World Health Organization. 110 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:59,600 Speaker 3: So the WHO recently released some data as to what 111 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 3: is reported to them in terms of disease, and they said, 112 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,239 Speaker 3: so far not keep in mind, these are just reported numbers, 113 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:07,239 Speaker 3: and that means it's just the tip of the iceberg. 114 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:11,160 Speaker 3: In most cases, one hundred thousand cases of diarrhea and 115 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 3: those are in young children. So half of those are 116 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 3: in young children out of the age of five, which 117 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 3: means it can be deadly. And this number is just 118 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 3: twenty five percent higher than what we have seen reported 119 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 3: pre conflict. And in terms of respiratory infections, the things 120 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:30,159 Speaker 3: like covid, influenza and pneumonia, one hundred and fifty thousand cases. 121 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 3: And that's just the numbers that we know about. But 122 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 3: we're also seeing cases and outbreaks of things like meningitis, 123 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:41,360 Speaker 3: skin rashes, babies, LCE, chicken pox, which is highly infectious. 124 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 3: And you know, we worry in those cases about when 125 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 3: people are in these close quarters and their bodies are 126 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:49,720 Speaker 3: already strained. Because one thing we do know is that 127 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:55,240 Speaker 3: when your bodies physiologically under stress, meaning no sleep, malnutrition, 128 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:59,479 Speaker 3: you know, not access to clean water to wash your hands, 129 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 3: not dehydrated, et cetera, you're at an increased risk for 130 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:06,159 Speaker 3: disease and severe disease. So that means that people are 131 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:08,039 Speaker 3: at higher risk to get it and then to spread 132 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 3: it in these environments. And that's what's really scary because 133 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 3: it becomes a hot spot for transmission. And you mentioned 134 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 3: that this feels like a secondary effect in many ways. 135 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 3: It's almost like a secondary conflict, if you will, and 136 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 3: one that will leave lasting implications because what we do 137 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 3: know is that disease and conflict go hand in hand. 138 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 3: And when I think about it a lot, and we've 139 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 3: seen this unfortunately throughout time, is that conflict can bring 140 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 3: disease and it can amplify disease. When I say bring disease, 141 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 3: we know that people in these spaces soldiers can bring 142 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 3: in diseases that are being spread around. But we've also 143 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 3: seen sexually transmitted diseases in the past being spread through 144 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 3: sexual assault and sexual violence, and that's one thing I 145 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 3: definitely worry about, and unfortunately we know that's happening and 146 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 3: it's not something we're going to see reported for a while, 147 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 3: but things like that can and do occur, and it's 148 00:07:58,080 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 3: a very scary situation. 149 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 5: If I can tack on a little bit to the 150 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 5: diarrhea subject here, because I am a GI and liver doc, 151 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 5: I mean, in a typical month in Gaza, there is 152 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 5: about two thousand cases of diarrhea and kids under five, 153 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 5: and in the last month there was over forty thousand cases. 154 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 5: And for kids that aren't getting water, they're not getting 155 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 5: the recommended amount of like daily water, like it's like 156 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 5: seven to eight leaders in refugee situations is what's recommended. 157 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 5: These people are getting like one to two leaders per 158 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 5: whole families, so they're not staying hydrated. And these are 159 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 5: kids that are most vulnerable. That's the part that is 160 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:37,079 Speaker 5: really hard for me. And I've actually seen people sort 161 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 5: of downclay it like just like, well, diarrhea, you know, 162 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 5: that's what you get, but in these situations, it's going 163 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 5: to be very serious for these kids. And the other 164 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 5: thing we're seeing is cases of jaundice. They're noting that 165 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 5: people are becoming that, which to me suggests that there's 166 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:53,599 Speaker 5: hepatitis A and hepatitis E, which is you know, you 167 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 5: get through fecal oral contamination and hepatitis E in particular 168 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:02,320 Speaker 5: is what concerns me because there's pregnant women and when 169 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 5: pregnant women get hepatitis E, it's worse for them that 170 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 5: that's a really bad situation. And when that happens, I mean, 171 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 5: these are these are women who are already not getting support, 172 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 5: They're already under nourished, They're not able to produce breast milk, 173 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:18,319 Speaker 5: They're going to be sick, They're not going to be 174 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:22,679 Speaker 5: able to feed their kids. It's I mean, I can't 175 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:25,679 Speaker 5: I can't imagine, honestly. I mean, I know it's funny. 176 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 5: We can say these things, we can talk about the numbers, 177 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:31,440 Speaker 5: but it is like to actually wrap my brain around 178 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 5: it breaks my brain. I cannot, like imagine the numbers 179 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:39,319 Speaker 5: of people that are sick and are in these hospitals, 180 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:43,080 Speaker 5: not just being treated, but like the NASA Hospital, which 181 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 5: is one of the two hospitals in Gaza, you know, 182 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 5: they they are like a three hundred and fifty bed hospital. 183 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 5: They are already over like a thousand patients and not 184 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 5: to mention the many thousands, over seventy thousand people just 185 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 5: staying there, you know, for refuge. It's absolutely a nightmare. 186 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 5: I can't I can't write my brain around it. 187 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:07,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, Like often I know when I speak to colleagues 188 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 1: who are there or at the journalistic they'll go to 189 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 1: hospitals a in the hope that they'll be safe, which 190 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 1: hasn't proven to be true sadly, which is pretty messed up. 191 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:17,079 Speaker 1: But be you know, they have many generators, right, so 192 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 1: they can charge and and tell the world what's happening, 193 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:22,839 Speaker 1: or try to. It seems like some of the word 194 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:26,479 Speaker 1: isn't listening. But yeah it there cost blows are incredibly overgrowded. 195 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 1: I wonder like if we could go back to diarrhea 196 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:32,960 Speaker 1: and there's not like a fun topics talk about it. 197 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 5: Score, Yeah, it's time to shine. 198 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, this life's work. 199 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:42,319 Speaker 1: So like I think it was diarrhea that I read 200 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 1: kills more people than conflict annually. 201 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 5: Oh yeah worldwide sure, yeah, yeah, well, I mean Saskia 202 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:50,440 Speaker 5: probably has better numbers on it than I do, actually, 203 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:54,199 Speaker 5: but worldwide, yeah, it's probably the number one, number one killer. 204 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 1: So like let's just break that because I most of 205 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 1: like by the very hus being a podcast, right best, 206 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:05,679 Speaker 1: so people listening in the in the kind of the 207 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:08,439 Speaker 1: in the neoliberal core or the global north, whatever you 208 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 1: want to call it. Right, Like, they have a smartphone 209 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:13,840 Speaker 1: and they've downloaded this, and it might be difficult to 210 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 1: understand how you die from diarrhea, which is like an 211 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 1: inconvenience in a lot of places. So can you just 212 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 1: explain that for people so they can they can understand 213 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 1: and how the conditions that we see in Gaza would compound. 214 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 5: That Saska, Do you want me to go first? 215 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 1: Oh? 216 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:36,440 Speaker 3: All you, I'll talk about spreads, you can talk, okay. 217 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 5: So, I mean, the there's a couple of issues that 218 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 5: can happen. There's a lot, but I mean dehydration is 219 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 5: going to be a major one, and loss of electrolytes. 220 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 5: I mean, these people can get so badly dehydrated that 221 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 5: the circulatory system isn't working properly, or they can lose 222 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:54,840 Speaker 5: the amount of electrolytes that they need and they're not 223 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 5: replacing and that can cause cardiovascular issues as well. So 224 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:02,960 Speaker 5: it's a terrible way to die. I mean, you know, 225 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 5: cholerara and these terrible like diarrheal epidemics that you know 226 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 5: we think of of mostly in the past. They're terrible. 227 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 5: They're terrible ways to go, and especially if you don't 228 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 5: have the I mean it's treatable. Usually it's treatable. You know, 229 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 5: you get fluid rehydration, you get electrolyte management. It's it's 230 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 5: pretty manageable in the right situation. But if you don't 231 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 5: have that, it's gonna be a devastating thing to the 232 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:35,840 Speaker 5: body over time, and for young kids, sooner rather than later. 233 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, so maybe we should explain how it spread. 234 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:44,959 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean the scary parts. So there's multiple pathogens 235 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:47,839 Speaker 3: that can cause diarrheal illness, and for the most part, 236 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 3: we see bacteria and viruses. If you've had neurovirus, which 237 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:56,680 Speaker 3: is the cruise ship bug, that is highly transmissible, meaning 238 00:12:56,800 --> 00:12:59,960 Speaker 3: it just goes through households and environments very very quick. 239 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:04,679 Speaker 3: During outbreaks. You can't just use hand sanitizer and a 240 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 3: simple disinfectant. You need bleach. And if you're if we're 241 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 3: thinking about the best case scenario, and I've seen you know, diarre, 242 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 3: real illnesses go through schools, hospitals, you name it. We 243 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 3: still struggle to contain those. Now, put yourself in an 244 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 3: environment with this level of stress, and you know, the 245 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 3: thirty six hospitals in Gazda Gaza twenty six have been damaged, 246 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 3: twenty one are not functional at all, thirteen are partially functioning, 247 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 3: and two are barely functioning. So we know that access 248 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 3: to care is a challenge. Resources I can't even imagine. 249 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:38,200 Speaker 3: So that means the capacity to treat patients with antibiotics, 250 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 3: with fluids, everything, and now contain it, which is the 251 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 3: disinfection you know, all the infection prevention essentially, And I 252 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 3: don't even want to think about contact tracing in public 253 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 3: health interventions because it doesn't exist. It's an entirely collapsed system. 254 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:55,200 Speaker 3: You know, this is a humanitarian crisis. So when you know, 255 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 3: when you have people in close quarters and there's a 256 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 3: lot of high touch items because a lot of direal 257 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 3: illness is spread through touch. It's you know, contaminated hands 258 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 3: and objects, and then you know, you touch your mouth, 259 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 3: you eat with your hands, et cetera. That's how these 260 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 3: things are spread. So between the bathroom not having access, 261 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:15,960 Speaker 3: you know, not having access to restrooms. You know, we 262 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 3: mentioned the toilet situation, there's also one shower for every 263 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 3: forty five hundred people, so we know that people are 264 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 3: not able to clean themselves effectively. And this is a 265 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 3: ripe condition for direal illness to spread, and they it 266 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 3: spreads very quickly, very efficiently, and it is exceedingly hard 267 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 3: to get rid of. And it worries me because a 268 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 3: lot of these diseases, it's not just like you get 269 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 3: it one time and you have immunity to it. It 270 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 3: can keep going around and if you have a situation 271 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 3: like that where you cannot clean effectively, you can't treat effectively, 272 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 3: then we're just going to see it continuously compound. And 273 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 3: that's absolutely terrifying because you know, we were talking about 274 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 3: pregnant women earlier. There's fifty thousand pregnant women right now 275 00:14:56,920 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 3: in Gaza and they are malnourished. That's just the tip 276 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 3: of the iceberg. And we see that so many children 277 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 3: there are malnourished, and these are very dangerous infections for 278 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 3: vulnerable people. And on the best of days, we struggle 279 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 3: to contain diarreal illness. So my big concern is this 280 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 3: and respiratory viruses. To be honest with you, because when 281 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 3: you have this many people in close quarters and ignore 282 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 3: the fact that they're extremely you know, physically strained and 283 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 3: stressed right now, which is when your immune system struggles, 284 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 3: it's going to spread and it's going to be exceedingly 285 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 3: hard to contain it. So this is an environment where 286 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 3: we're going to see diarreal illness spread and it's going 287 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 3: to unfortunately kill a lot more people then we will 288 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 3: even realize. It's going to take years to understand implications 289 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 3: of this, you know, if we even consider that access 290 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 3: to clean water and food. We've been talking a lot 291 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 3: about malnourishment, which is huge, but I'm also concerned to 292 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 3: the quality of food that they're getting too, and the water, 293 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 3: all of it. Everything about the situation is going to 294 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:01,440 Speaker 3: spread disease. It's you know, I know that sounds quite dramatic, 295 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 3: but it's entirely true. 296 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:05,920 Speaker 4: No, I mean, I'm glad you're emphasizing that, because I 297 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 4: don't think people realize the gravity of of like a 298 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 4: second wave of death like that that happens like not 299 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 4: even not with weapons. Uh, but no, I'm glad you 300 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 4: emphasize that. Let's uh, let's take our first break. We'll 301 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 4: be right back. 302 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 3: And it reminds me too of when we saw U 303 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 3: N peacekeepers in Haiti and they introduced polera, and you know, 304 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 3: and that's it's an unfortunate reality when you are bringing 305 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 3: in groups of people to and this you know, for 306 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 3: in Haiti, they were trying to help the situation. In 307 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 3: this case, it's not surprising. I mean, there's there's a 308 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 3: really good book called Contagions and Chaos that actually talks 309 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 3: about how infectious diseases can amplify conflict or create it. 310 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:04,359 Speaker 3: And ultimately, I think we're just going to see this 311 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:07,640 Speaker 3: as a rolling in health issue until there's a ceasefire 312 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 3: and until there's really substantial work in there to resource 313 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 3: and to take care of people. 314 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:17,880 Speaker 4: I mean, it's scared any Kave. You mentioned that you 315 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 4: had a question for Saskia I. 316 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 5: Do you know you've written and you talked a lot 317 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 5: about the intersections of science and policy, particularly in terms 318 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 5: of COVID nineteen. We've seen that global threats elsewhere can 319 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 5: affect Americans, and I'm wondering, is there a way to 320 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:38,600 Speaker 5: try and appeal to Westerners who aren't that interested yet 321 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:43,120 Speaker 5: and why they should care about infectious diseases that are 322 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 5: rising or become rampant in other places. Is there an 323 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 5: argument you can make to these people who may not 324 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 5: care that much about the Palestinian people per se. 325 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 3: Oh, there's the political answer. I should give you. And 326 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 3: then there's the real answer, which is political answer saying 327 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 3: that you know people do care and you know we're 328 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 3: just having the console in your mind them. But the 329 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 3: real answer is, look, we just came out of three 330 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 3: and a half years of a pandemic and at this point, 331 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 3: if people don't give a shit, they're not going to. 332 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 3: And I know that's crude for me to say, but 333 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,479 Speaker 3: it's I've been working in this and we've seen it 334 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:24,119 Speaker 3: from Ebola to mers too, empocs, and in now coming 335 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 3: out of COVID. I think we can safely say that, 336 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:29,440 Speaker 3: you know, it's not a matter of if, but when. 337 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 3: But people really like the saying that is infectious disease 338 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,120 Speaker 3: knows no borders, and to a certain extent that is true. 339 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 3: Infectious diseases they don't know that, but it ignores the 340 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:42,200 Speaker 3: fact that some countries are more equipped to handle them, 341 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:46,359 Speaker 3: and that borders are a pores concept. So in this case, 342 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 3: I think from an American perspective, where it is a 343 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 3: very complicated relationship Americans have and I'm not getting into 344 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:59,440 Speaker 3: that when it comes to Israel. The reality is that 345 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:02,440 Speaker 3: it shouldn't matter if it's a conflict. If you see 346 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 3: an outbreak somewhere. You should be worried for those people, 347 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:07,919 Speaker 3: and it shouldn't matter if it's going to impact you. 348 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 3: But now that we have lived through a pandemic, a 349 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 3: historical event, I would like to think people would see 350 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:19,119 Speaker 3: this and realize any one of these diseases can come 351 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:23,400 Speaker 3: to the States, it can strain global resources. And I'm 352 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:25,879 Speaker 3: hopeful that with the amount of attention that's coming to 353 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:28,679 Speaker 3: this and that the work that the WHO and the 354 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:32,120 Speaker 3: UN have been drawing attention to it, that will change. 355 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 3: But I get a little nervous every time we talk 356 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:39,120 Speaker 3: about infectious diseases and conflict areas because I find that 357 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 3: Americans and it's not just us, that people in high 358 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:45,640 Speaker 3: income countries disassociate because that is a conflict related issue, 359 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:48,919 Speaker 3: but it's not Conflict can mean many different things, and 360 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:52,000 Speaker 3: it's essentially saying, this is an issue that's going to 361 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 3: bubble out of control. And if we were in a 362 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 3: situation where there was no clean food and water, we 363 00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 3: had no access to health services, in medicine, well was 364 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 3: an issue in power, no communication and I just read 365 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 3: that three Palestinian internet providers went down, so they have 366 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:09,360 Speaker 3: no way to contact outside world. They have housing, safe passes, 367 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 3: et cetera. Any one of those impacted US, we would 368 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 3: be experiencing it. And I will leave that question with 369 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 3: one comment. That's to say we are a very well 370 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 3: resourced country. The US invests so many resources into health, 371 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:26,400 Speaker 3: global health, security, biopreparedness, all of the above, and we 372 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 3: were one of the worst performers when it came to 373 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:32,160 Speaker 3: COVID response. And I say that having worked in health 374 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:36,400 Speaker 3: care during that and doing epidemiology, and I think this 375 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:40,639 Speaker 3: should be a continuous wake up call that it's we're 376 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 3: one disease away from an international crisis, and when we 377 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 3: see this, it should really speak to the fact that 378 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:49,680 Speaker 3: it is global health. It's not national health, not local health, 379 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 3: it is global health. That's my ted talk. 380 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 2: The good tech. 381 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 1: I guess if I could piggyback on that, there is 382 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:01,160 Speaker 1: not a single war that I have covered, either remotely 383 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:04,240 Speaker 1: or in person, where I have not then seen those 384 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:07,919 Speaker 1: people arrive our border where I live, Like I was 385 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 1: in Syrian Kurdistan in October. I am seeing people leaving 386 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 1: Turkey more and more Turkish Kurdistan, but also Syrian Kurdistan, 387 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 1: or people who went to Syria went back to Turkey 388 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:22,200 Speaker 1: at our southern border right now. I am seeing people 389 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 1: from conflicts all over the world at our southern border 390 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:29,679 Speaker 1: right now, and every single conflict, because we tend to 391 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:33,120 Speaker 1: stick our nose into every single conflict, it ends up here, 392 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 1: right because we tell people we support them and then 393 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 1: we abandon them, and they come here thinking that we 394 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:39,160 Speaker 1: were going to support them. I'll also add that every 395 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 1: time there is an infectious disease outbreak going forward, it 396 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:45,639 Speaker 1: will be used in the same way that COVID was 397 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 1: to prevent asylum. The title forty two that was used 398 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: to like quote unquote catch and release migrants at the 399 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:57,400 Speaker 1: southern border allowed border patrol to reject people without processing 400 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:00,880 Speaker 1: their asylum came. That's a public health floor, it's migration law. 401 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:03,679 Speaker 1: Biden's already indicated that he would love to do the 402 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 1: same thing again, and like, you don't even need an 403 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:09,879 Speaker 1: excuse with this infocused disease stuff, right the laws are 404 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,640 Speaker 1: already there, and it was already in place for several years, 405 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: so it's kind of stood the test of the courts. 406 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 1: And this will impact even if you don't give a 407 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:22,240 Speaker 1: shit about people in Palestine, and maybe you should examine 408 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 1: what's up with your morality if you do, like, this 409 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 1: will impact you because people will come here, and it 410 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 1: will impact you because people who should come here won't 411 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 1: be able to and that will mean that people who 412 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: have done nothing wrong, you who trusted us when we 413 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 1: lie to them. You know, people Americans seem to care 414 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: about Afghanisa more than other people. Like I've spoken to 415 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:44,120 Speaker 1: hundreds of Afghan women our border and like they were 416 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 1: stuck under Title forty two in very dangerous situations in 417 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 1: places like Mexico. So even if you only care about 418 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:53,400 Speaker 1: those people, you should still care about this. I guess 419 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 1: can I add something to I think, please. 420 00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:00,639 Speaker 3: You know, to avoid fueling isolationism, because I think that 421 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 3: happens all the time when we talk about these global 422 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:06,560 Speaker 3: health issues. Every resource that has to be put to 423 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 3: helping this health crisis that is bubbling out of a 424 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:14,959 Speaker 3: humanitarian crisis is a resource that's not back where it's 425 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 3: supposed to be addressing global health issues. Meaning so for example, 426 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:21,760 Speaker 3: when we saw the people outbreak in West Africa in twenty fourteen, 427 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,479 Speaker 3: after there were you know, we started to actually realize 428 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:32,439 Speaker 3: the implications to malaria controlled tuberculosis HIV. So when we 429 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 3: have to throw a bunch of emergency resources at a crisis, 430 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 3: those are coming out of somewhere else. And I worry 431 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 3: too that people don't realize that we're, you know, as 432 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 3: the who, the un everywhere, MSS is having to help 433 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 3: this situation because there's no access to care and again 434 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:53,720 Speaker 3: is a health crisis. That means we're going to start 435 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 3: to see other things pop up elsewhere, and that really 436 00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 3: worries me because we are already very strained when it 437 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:02,719 Speaker 3: comes to global health resources. We just again came out 438 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 3: of a pandemic, so everyone's tired, everyone's burnt out. We've 439 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 3: got health systems and a lot of and we're seeing 440 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 3: even in the US where a lot of funding for 441 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 3: like the CDC is being pulled in NIH. So now 442 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 3: that we're out of kind of coming back into this 443 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 3: panic neglect cycle, I worry that a lot of the 444 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 3: resources that we're having to pull to address this crisis 445 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:29,120 Speaker 3: are going to then ultimately leave a lot of other 446 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 3: places at risk or infectious diseases for long term health implications. 447 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 3: So it is a lot bigger than one area or 448 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:38,120 Speaker 3: people you know, having to flee to the US. It's 449 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 3: it's all of these things, and too often we approach 450 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 3: this with a very short sighted this and we have 451 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 3: we don't you know, we have finite resources when it 452 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,600 Speaker 3: comes to global health response, and when we have to 453 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 3: use them because you know we're not you know, approaching 454 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 3: this effectively or appropriately, then we're going to see larger implications. 455 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,959 Speaker 1: Yeah, even like we can just keep building off each 456 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:04,680 Speaker 1: other stuff and it's not here from the other two. 457 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 1: Even recently, I was trying to buy some humanitarian daily 458 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 1: rations for the border, which are people aren't familiar. They're 459 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,360 Speaker 1: like MRIs for refugees, and make sure we eat one 460 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 1: on our. 461 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:16,400 Speaker 2: Live show once. 462 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,440 Speaker 1: Yeah it's very salty, Yeah, very salty. That it's good 463 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 1: for the electrolytes, but like that is a state department. 464 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,480 Speaker 1: It's buying the back of surplus retailers at the minute, 465 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,359 Speaker 1: which means that there's obviously like a critical lack of 466 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 1: supply of these things. Same with UNHCR shelters, and like 467 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 1: that means that someone else doesn't get to eat, right, 468 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,680 Speaker 1: because we've just massively increased the burden of people who 469 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,160 Speaker 1: desperately need to eat. Like it's not like these things 470 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 1: were chilling before, like there were you know, hunger is 471 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 1: still a massive problem in the world, despite us having 472 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 1: so much food here and so like they say, yeah, 473 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 1: the same as true of medical supplies. Like you said, 474 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 1: right that that means that somebody else doesn't get them, 475 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 1: that money doesn't go to something else very important, that 476 00:25:58,640 --> 00:25:59,399 Speaker 1: it could be going to. 477 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:02,399 Speaker 4: Can I ask about something I just learned about the 478 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 4: past couple of days. So on December twenty fifth, the 479 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 4: Jerusalem Post reported that an IDF soldier died of a 480 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:17,960 Speaker 4: fungal infection, and apparently he was hospitalized and eventually he died, 481 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,560 Speaker 4: and at least ten other soldiers have been diagnosed with 482 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 4: infections of some sort. I think what kind of made 483 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 4: me annoyed is that there is a headline from the 484 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 4: Times of Israel that said, as a soldier with fungal 485 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:36,520 Speaker 4: infection dies, fears grow of Gaza diseases spreading into Israel, 486 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,399 Speaker 4: and apparently they're examining whether the infections originated from the 487 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 4: Hammas tunnels and all this stuff. I think, while Iel, 488 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,159 Speaker 4: it really bothered me because I looked at all of 489 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:54,520 Speaker 4: these articles. I mean, most of them are obviously Israeli sourced, 490 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 4: but it still was the same rhetoric of there's diseases 491 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 4: in God and our soldiers are getting them, And honestly, 492 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 4: the takeaway in all of these was we have to 493 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 4: worry about Israeli public health and the Israeli citizens. It 494 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 4: wasn't about anything about the gosins or anything like that. 495 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 4: And I was just I guess I wanted to ask, 496 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:18,480 Speaker 4: is there any truth at all to the idea that 497 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 4: there can be certain infections localized to that degree even 498 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 4: though it's like a very small country in general. And 499 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,639 Speaker 4: I guess it's really I feel like it's a just 500 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 4: fear mongering tactic using health as a weapon. But I 501 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 4: don't know. I'd love to hear your thoughts. 502 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,160 Speaker 5: Even the fungus has gone woke. I can't believe it. 503 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:46,639 Speaker 5: They've weaponized fungus, sasky. I'll let you address it, but 504 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:48,680 Speaker 5: I would say this, I mean, I think the fear 505 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:53,959 Speaker 5: I just did an episode of my podcast on funguses 506 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:56,439 Speaker 5: and talking about the last of us and seeing like 507 00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 5: the truth that there's really a concern, especially with global 508 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 5: climate change, and it is I mean, the thought of 509 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 5: a fungus affecting humans in that way who were not 510 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:10,639 Speaker 5: in some way under their body understress or immuno suppressed, 511 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 5: it's it's not that likely. And I definitely agree from 512 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 5: what I'm hearing that like this is just another way 513 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:19,520 Speaker 5: to be like, look at these dirty people, we should 514 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 5: bomb them to them. 515 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 4: Everything related to Palestinians is oh, it's all the plague. 516 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 4: Like they're scary, they're barbaric, and also they're going to 517 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,360 Speaker 4: make you sick. It's it's really infuriating. They're just going 518 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,240 Speaker 4: at every angle. I just I found the quote that 519 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:36,159 Speaker 4: made me mad. Can I read it? Okay, I'm going 520 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 4: to read it. Basically, it says the war between Israel 521 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 4: and Hamas has led to the destruction of large swaths 522 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 4: of Gaza and internal displacement of the vast majority of 523 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 4: its population, resulting in what is called humanitarian crisis for 524 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 4: the Palestinians. It is called that because it is that 525 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 4: body what law. These conditions have led to the outbreaks 526 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 4: of various diseases, which can potentially threaten the well being 527 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 4: of hundreds of thousands of IDF groups fighting in Gaza. 528 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 4: They can also ultimately spell trouble for public health in Israel. 529 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 4: I just can't believe that's the takeaway. 530 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 5: All at Saskia, do you want to address the spread 531 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:15,520 Speaker 5: of fungal infection in a situation like this. 532 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, look again, this is a situation where 533 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 3: disease is going to be spread and that includes idea soldiers. 534 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 3: They are at risk because guess what, they all have 535 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 3: to go back to their bunks and sleep at night 536 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 3: in close quarters. Do we see diseases spread easily in militaries, 537 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:36,600 Speaker 3: of course, I mean it would be insane not to 538 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 3: think that. But trying to, you know, source it in 539 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 3: Palestinians and Gazas is slightly ridiculous because there's no epidemiological 540 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 3: evidence of that. But it's also kind of weird to 541 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 3: me that they're saying a fungal infection. That's a very 542 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 3: specific thing, and bungle infections aren't fast infections for the 543 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 3: most part. You know, when we do see them, I 544 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 3: think from a regional perspective. If you live in Southwest 545 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 3: like I do, Valley fever is a fungal infection. It's 546 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 3: in the dirt though, it's a spore in the dirt, 547 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 3: and it's not spread between people though that's that's the 548 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 3: key part. It is you inhale it and you get it, 549 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 3: and it takes months in a lot of cases. But 550 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 3: you know, can you can you see fungal infections yeah, 551 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:23,160 Speaker 3: that could be contaminated water, you know, inhalation, through showers, 552 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 3: things like that. I mean, there's ways for that to happen, 553 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 3: but we really just for the most part see those 554 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 3: infections spread from an individual source, not an individual person. 555 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 3: They tend to really not be they're environmentally spread, you know. 556 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,080 Speaker 3: And I'm not a fungal expert. I can just speak 557 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,480 Speaker 3: to the ones that I've seen, and really we don't 558 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,720 Speaker 3: see them spread between people, and so I think that 559 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:48,080 Speaker 3: it's it's a weird choice to say, and I worry 560 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 3: a little bit that they're just again to your point, 561 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,720 Speaker 3: trying to say like, oh, look, our soldiers are getting sick. 562 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 3: You know, the sacrifice that we're making right is so much. 563 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 3: And here's the thing. Conflict is where we're going to 564 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 3: see disease spread no matter what. And I if you're 565 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 3: so worried about soldiers getting fungal infections from Gaza, then 566 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 3: maybe keep the people in Gauza safe and then they're 567 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 3: you know, either way you paint this, if you're trying 568 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 3: to blame it on them, they keep them safe and 569 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:18,800 Speaker 3: they won't be able to spread disease. Very simple. 570 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, they did. They did. Cite contaminated soil. 571 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 3: Okay, that's a contamination thing like environmental. 572 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, this one epdibiologist said that these soldiers have come 573 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 4: back with serious anti microbial resistant infections that they've picked 574 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 4: up through contact with contaminated soil, among other factors. Like one, 575 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 4: I feel like it's like a very direct statement. 576 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 3: There's a lot of there's a lot to unpack there. 577 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:44,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. 578 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 3: Again though if it's in the soil, it's an environmental exposure. 579 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 3: That is like, that's not anyone's fault from an anti 580 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:55,560 Speaker 3: microbial perspective that I'm having a hard time believing that 581 00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:58,320 Speaker 3: value fever, as I mentioned, is really hard to treat, 582 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,320 Speaker 3: so sometimes it's not responsive to some of the medications 583 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:04,960 Speaker 3: you give. But you know you're gonna get anti microbial 584 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,160 Speaker 3: infections more so from people and contaminated objects, because that 585 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 3: means that it has to have been exposed to antibiotics 586 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:15,960 Speaker 3: and become resistant to the infections. But there's that feels 587 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:19,600 Speaker 3: like very messy, uh, you know, reporting on their part 588 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 3: or communications, because not a lot of that makes sense 589 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:23,840 Speaker 3: to me. And either way, if they're saying it's from 590 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,280 Speaker 3: the environment, congratulations, you've just proven you're not getting it 591 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 3: from people. 592 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:29,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you for getting into that. I just the 593 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:33,960 Speaker 4: the Hamas tunnels, the Hamas terror tunnels, sorry in their words, 594 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 4: their terror tunnels. They're going to investigate whether infections have 595 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:44,800 Speaker 4: originated from there. It just it's also just that doesn't 596 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 4: make any sense. So I'm glad to have two doctors 597 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 4: here agree, and that's all I wanted. 598 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 5: I mean, I will say this Coxidium micosis is value fever, 599 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 5: and we like, you know, she just mentioned it's we 600 00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 5: see it here in California. It's the reason why we 601 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,480 Speaker 5: used to say, if you're driving down Central Valley, California, 602 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:04,560 Speaker 5: down the Eye five, you should roll up your window 603 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 5: and not breathe in the air because there's a possibility 604 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:10,920 Speaker 5: of getting it from that. So okay, they say that, Well, 605 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 5: I don't think they do so much anymore. 606 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:15,480 Speaker 2: There's a whole number of reasons why you don't want 607 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 2: to be breathing in. 608 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:18,840 Speaker 5: Yeah, there's a lot of cow farms out there too. 609 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 5: It gets a little bit nasty out there in the 610 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:23,360 Speaker 5: I five. But but I mean, that's what is an 611 00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 5: endemic thing. It's like, if they don't want to be 612 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 5: exposed to it, stay out of that area. 613 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, but you're not going to get it from other people. 614 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 3: That's the kicker. It's not spread from people. 615 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,960 Speaker 1: It is very common to attribute infect your diseases that 616 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 1: come from conflict to your enemy. It's like if you 617 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 1: look at like the nineteen eighteen pandemic flu, right, and 618 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 1: all the different things that people call that flu and 619 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,280 Speaker 1: the people to whom they attributed it, like, you can 620 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 1: see that we've been doing that for more than one 621 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 1: hundred years. It's it's part of the process of dehumanizing 622 00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:57,440 Speaker 1: people who you're trying to kill. 623 00:33:57,680 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 4: It happened with COVID too, No, it's. 624 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, that was a whole different situation. 625 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:06,080 Speaker 4: I guess humans just don't learn. I suppose. 626 00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:21,000 Speaker 1: So I wonder Saskia like we obviously this is a 627 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:25,080 Speaker 1: terrible situation, and it's one that's like super easy to 628 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:30,239 Speaker 1: feel very disempowered with because you know, as much as 629 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:33,120 Speaker 1: you march around and do things, it doesn't seem to 630 00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 1: be stopping. There is there anything that like people can do, 631 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:40,480 Speaker 1: advocate for, like take action on, that could make this 632 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:41,399 Speaker 1: slightly less bad. 633 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:44,759 Speaker 3: I mean, a ceasefire. I encourage people to donate to 634 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:47,600 Speaker 3: UNISF and obviously you know MSF A lot of the 635 00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:51,880 Speaker 3: wonderful organizations doing work there, and probably my my biggest 636 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:53,960 Speaker 3: one right now, especially since we're around the holidays and 637 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:55,719 Speaker 3: people are spending a lot of time with family and 638 00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:59,759 Speaker 3: likely getting into some heavy conversations around the dinner tables. 639 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,880 Speaker 3: Make sure you're well informed and you're not spreading misinformation 640 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 3: and disinformation online because that's been a huge aspect of this. 641 00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:13,280 Speaker 3: You know, we saw with the humanitarian crisis in Ukraine. 642 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 3: You know, Russia took direct action to spread misinformation and disinformation, 643 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:19,719 Speaker 3: and we're struggling with that in the United States right 644 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:23,480 Speaker 3: now with this. So I encourage people to stay informed 645 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:28,879 Speaker 3: of this, to really utilize good resources and not pull 646 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:31,440 Speaker 3: things from social media. If you're going to share something, 647 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:35,000 Speaker 3: you know, do so from an accurate source. I really, 648 00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:38,799 Speaker 3: you know, the who un have been really good at 649 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 3: doing continuous updates and sharing that information. Human Rights Watch 650 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:47,400 Speaker 3: at all of the above, and on top of again, 651 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:51,160 Speaker 3: donating and really being an advocate for a ceasefire, to 652 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:55,160 Speaker 3: me is the biggest thing because also reminding people, hey, 653 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:59,800 Speaker 3: this is currently a localized crisis, but infectious diseases and 654 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,719 Speaker 3: a humanitarian crises, excuse me, rarely stay that way. 655 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:09,480 Speaker 5: I would also plug the Palestinian Medical Relief Society the PMRS. 656 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:12,239 Speaker 5: They're the on the ground people. They've been there since 657 00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:16,560 Speaker 5: nineteen seventy nine. They are founded by Palestinian doctors. It's 658 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,919 Speaker 5: mostly a Palestinian run and they're doing I think, really 659 00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:22,719 Speaker 5: good work down there as best they can. And they're 660 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:26,000 Speaker 5: where actually the who gets most of their information or 661 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:28,160 Speaker 5: a lot of it at least it's coming from their 662 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:31,520 Speaker 5: updates from the PMRS people on the ground, So that's 663 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,880 Speaker 5: another local source to look at if people are interested 664 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:36,040 Speaker 5: in getting involved. 665 00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:38,080 Speaker 2: Perfect, you got to do. 666 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:41,000 Speaker 4: Sure, I'm not going to wrap it up yet. I 667 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:46,320 Speaker 4: was just thinking how unfortunate it is that people don't 668 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:48,440 Speaker 4: care enough. So you have to be like, it's not 669 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:50,840 Speaker 4: only going to stay localized, Like it's not just that 670 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:52,239 Speaker 4: probably you know what I mean. I hate that we 671 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:55,600 Speaker 4: have to go there because, especially after going through a 672 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:58,960 Speaker 4: pandemic yourself, if that is still not enough for you 673 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:02,720 Speaker 4: to have any kind of empathy, that's that's just insane 674 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:03,640 Speaker 4: to me. That's uh. 675 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:07,600 Speaker 3: The one consistent thing I've seen is a lot of 676 00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:12,000 Speaker 3: people say, oh, this conflict is you know, very There's 677 00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:13,680 Speaker 3: a lot of history and I don't really want to 678 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:16,480 Speaker 3: get involved and yeah, and you know, to us, I 679 00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:20,120 Speaker 3: do understand that there is a long, complicated history that 680 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:22,279 Speaker 3: not a lot of people are well informed of. But 681 00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:24,960 Speaker 3: inform yourself. And that doesn't mean you can't have empathy. 682 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:29,760 Speaker 3: You can you know, denounce the Moss and also denounced 683 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:33,640 Speaker 3: anti Semitism. These things are not really intrusive. And it's 684 00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:36,400 Speaker 3: it's impressive to me that we're still after you know, 685 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,080 Speaker 3: it's not even been three months and we've lost twenty 686 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:41,719 Speaker 3: thousand people that we know of a this. We're seeing 687 00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,960 Speaker 3: journalists held left and right as well. It's it's impressive 688 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:46,680 Speaker 3: to me that people are still saying, oh, I don't 689 00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:49,000 Speaker 3: I don't really want to comment on that, or you know, 690 00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:50,680 Speaker 3: it's it's it's very messy. 691 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:55,760 Speaker 5: It is, and it's not though in the medical I'm sorry, James. 692 00:37:55,760 --> 00:38:00,160 Speaker 5: In the medical world, i've seen doctors complain about more 693 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:04,239 Speaker 5: about the word provider and how it's used. Then the 694 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:07,560 Speaker 5: fact that three hundred medical professionals have been killed, some 695 00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:10,440 Speaker 5: of them while doing their duty in the hospital, Like, 696 00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:12,719 Speaker 5: that's a part that kind of surprised me from a 697 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:16,520 Speaker 5: medical perspective. And you know, I think I mentioned it 698 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:18,839 Speaker 5: to you before. I'm grateful for coming on your show, 699 00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 5: because I think a lot of the overlap between doctors 700 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:24,960 Speaker 5: who listen to our show and they listen to yours, 701 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:28,960 Speaker 5: and they're very vocal and they're online, and they are 702 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:30,919 Speaker 5: the ones who are really giving me hope in these 703 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:33,920 Speaker 5: situations because and there's a lot of people in medicine, 704 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,239 Speaker 5: this is a medical issue. I mean, I'm not even 705 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:39,080 Speaker 5: talking about any of the history. That's nothing. That's not 706 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:41,520 Speaker 5: what I'm that's not what it's important to me right now. 707 00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:46,840 Speaker 5: It's about this healthcare crisis that is worsening and progressively worsening, 708 00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:49,560 Speaker 5: and it is a bit of a bummer that I'm 709 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:53,080 Speaker 5: not seeing a little bit more interest in addressing it. 710 00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, I would hope also that most people, like insider 711 00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,120 Speaker 1: outside of medical community could maybe agree that like the 712 00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:02,759 Speaker 1: correct number of hospitals to bomb is zero hospitals, and 713 00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:08,160 Speaker 1: that yeah, there isn't a reason why you bomb a hospitalities, shouldn't. 714 00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:13,320 Speaker 4: Anthony Blincoln said like a year or about Ukraine and Russia. 715 00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,320 Speaker 4: Russia bombed hospitals and schools. There's no way that's normal. 716 00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:18,480 Speaker 4: And then like there's a video where it's like cross 717 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:20,560 Speaker 4: sectioning into like right now, how it's like we're always 718 00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:22,800 Speaker 4: going to support Israel. So it's like, no, it's not normal. 719 00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:27,520 Speaker 4: Bombing hospitals and schools is never normal or okay, it's 720 00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:30,799 Speaker 4: crazy that Israel went from being like we would never 721 00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:35,280 Speaker 4: bomb a hospital to bombing dozens of them and nothing happening. 722 00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:38,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, but like yeah. 723 00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:42,680 Speaker 1: I guess just felt like like completion. Again, it's not 724 00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:46,440 Speaker 1: okay when Turkey bomb's hospitals in Northeast area either, like 725 00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:49,000 Speaker 1: I was there when they bombed one, they bombed another one. 726 00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:53,040 Speaker 1: Since it's not okay when the Hunter and Meanmile bombs 727 00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:55,480 Speaker 1: hospitals and at this one hospital left standing in the 728 00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:58,160 Speaker 1: whole of Kerny State right now, and like this is 729 00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:02,760 Speaker 1: happening there too, not like not caring about those people 730 00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:04,640 Speaker 1: because it's just a topic of the day or whatever. 731 00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:08,920 Speaker 3: Like it's also not okay to use white phosphorus on 732 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:14,880 Speaker 3: armed civilians across the board were Yeah, like in general, 733 00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:18,200 Speaker 3: it's horrific, and I just I think it's it's you know, 734 00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:20,319 Speaker 3: and there was there were a couple of reports and 735 00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:22,200 Speaker 3: I think that there's still data coming out about it 736 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:26,719 Speaker 3: that bodies had organs stolen from them, Yeah, which is 737 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:27,600 Speaker 3: just horrific. 738 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:32,160 Speaker 4: And yeah, it doesn't really practice what Israel has done 739 00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:35,720 Speaker 4: for a while though. Israel's uh, they said they stopped 740 00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:37,919 Speaker 4: it and then they're continue to do it. But it's 741 00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:41,799 Speaker 4: like they're notorious for bringing to returning bodies that have 742 00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:45,239 Speaker 4: been like autopsied or having all their organs removed. And 743 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,560 Speaker 4: I want to just point out that for Muslim burials, 744 00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:50,800 Speaker 4: the body is like it's very important that the body 745 00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:55,320 Speaker 4: is whole, and the same for Jewish burials. But it's 746 00:40:55,400 --> 00:41:00,359 Speaker 4: just really disgusting, just point blank and then also really disrespectful. Yeah, 747 00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:04,160 Speaker 4: sorry interrupted, No, no, I mean it's and again, you know, 748 00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:06,879 Speaker 4: I think there's still a lot of information coming out 749 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:10,400 Speaker 4: about that and how many that cret etc. Because I, 750 00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:13,040 Speaker 4: like I mentioned before, I think information right now is 751 00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:16,520 Speaker 4: really challenging. Accurate information, of course, is exceedingly difficult, so 752 00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:20,040 Speaker 4: I'm always very careful, you know what we say. But 753 00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:24,480 Speaker 4: to me, you know, the Washington Post just released a 754 00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:28,040 Speaker 4: really good article and in death analysis of the attacks 755 00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:30,880 Speaker 4: on the Al Shifa hospital, because that's the biggest hospital 756 00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:34,680 Speaker 4: in Gaza. And for a while, you know, IDF was saying, well, 757 00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:36,600 Speaker 4: this is where Hamas has been operating. They have a 758 00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:39,680 Speaker 4: tunnel networks and there was there was a good breakdown 759 00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:41,239 Speaker 4: of why this is int accurate and at the end 760 00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:44,879 Speaker 4: of the day, now there's no acceptable reason to bomb 761 00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:48,799 Speaker 4: a hospital, and drawing attention to the fact that this 762 00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:52,239 Speaker 4: was occurring and misinformation is being shared is huge. So 763 00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:54,799 Speaker 4: I'm hopeful that you know and very grateful to be 764 00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:56,520 Speaker 4: on this podcast and talk with you all because the 765 00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:59,960 Speaker 4: more information we can communicate about this situation, but also 766 00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,719 Speaker 4: about the fact that there are much larger consequences of 767 00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:07,200 Speaker 4: this from just even an infectious disease perspective is so 768 00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:09,479 Speaker 4: critical because I don't think people realize that, and again 769 00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:11,920 Speaker 4: they disassociate when they hear it's the conflict, it's a 770 00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:14,920 Speaker 4: result of conflicts. It is so much larger than that. 771 00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:17,600 Speaker 4: It will you know, we will see it in the States, 772 00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:21,800 Speaker 4: we will see the ramifications of this and if nothing 773 00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:24,040 Speaker 4: else again coming out as COVID, I'd like to think 774 00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:27,840 Speaker 4: that we realize that we are part of a much larger, 775 00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:32,800 Speaker 4: interconnected world and infectious diseases are simply a plane flight away. 776 00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:36,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, very true. 777 00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:41,080 Speaker 4: Thank you both so much for your brains and your 778 00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:42,520 Speaker 4: knowledge of we're coming on the show. 779 00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:44,920 Speaker 5: It's thanks for having us. 780 00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:48,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you so much for having us, of course, 781 00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:50,960 Speaker 1: and before we go, I'd like to ask you guys 782 00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:54,200 Speaker 1: if you have anything you'd like to plug, like white 783 00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:56,920 Speaker 1: people can find you good. You've mentioned a couple of 784 00:42:56,920 --> 00:43:00,879 Speaker 1: good resources, but other information resources, that kind of thing 785 00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:02,879 Speaker 1: that you'd like to share. 786 00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:07,719 Speaker 5: So in terms of the resources, I I am following 787 00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:11,480 Speaker 5: a couple members of the pm RS. They have a 788 00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,759 Speaker 5: Twitter feed but it's not very active, but the who 789 00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:17,319 Speaker 5: gets a lot of the same information and they do 790 00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:20,360 Speaker 5: a good job of updating in terms of where you 791 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:24,080 Speaker 5: could learn more. I just did an episode on the 792 00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:27,719 Speaker 5: healthcare crisis in Gaza on my podcast, The House of Pod, 793 00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:30,800 Speaker 5: which James has been on and stream. I'm trying to 794 00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:33,799 Speaker 5: get you to come on so I'm down. I'm going 795 00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:37,239 Speaker 5: to keep working on you in Saskia too. I mean 796 00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:38,120 Speaker 5: you're all invited. 797 00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:39,239 Speaker 3: I'm recording this. 798 00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:41,160 Speaker 5: I'm just gonna release it on my podcast as well, 799 00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:44,880 Speaker 5: and uh yeah, so listen to us there. I'll be 800 00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:47,839 Speaker 5: doing more episodes on this topic as well in the 801 00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:49,520 Speaker 5: in the coming months. 802 00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:49,880 Speaker 4: Cool. 803 00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:52,080 Speaker 2: Perfect, How about. 804 00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:56,920 Speaker 3: All of those resources I really been looking to of course, 805 00:43:56,920 --> 00:44:00,239 Speaker 3: on the public health parents so w h O and 806 00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:02,080 Speaker 3: writes watch and my big go tos as you know 807 00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:05,160 Speaker 3: again as all the sources we've already mentioned, and I 808 00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:07,640 Speaker 3: really I want to give a shout out to a 809 00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:11,759 Speaker 3: colleague of mine, Jessica Alti Rivera, who is really really 810 00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:13,440 Speaker 3: wonderful in this space and has been doing a lot 811 00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:16,440 Speaker 3: of science communication on her Instagram. I tend to be 812 00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:19,520 Speaker 3: a little bit more on the cesspool that is formally Twitter, 813 00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:24,080 Speaker 3: but you know, I'm I think there's some really wonderful 814 00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:27,680 Speaker 3: people out there, this entire group included, that are actively 815 00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:30,399 Speaker 3: working to share information but also how people can get 816 00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:33,560 Speaker 3: engaged and involved. So shout out to her and just 817 00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:35,680 Speaker 3: all of the hard work that a lot of key 818 00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:39,040 Speaker 3: journalists are doing in this space, because again, if you 819 00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:41,960 Speaker 3: have no communication out it's really hard to get accurate information. 820 00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:47,120 Speaker 4: Well, thanks guys for listening. Why are you laughing? James? 821 00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:49,520 Speaker 4: Can I wrap this out? Or is this too monotone? 822 00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:58,480 Speaker 4: Send it now? That's the show again, Thanks again for 823 00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:00,920 Speaker 4: both of you being so outspoken, and I think especially 824 00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:06,200 Speaker 4: reminding everyone that it's actually not complicated, because it's also 825 00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:09,759 Speaker 4: like a medical issue. It's not exactly when you just 826 00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:12,719 Speaker 4: look at the numbers, look at BodyCount, look at families. 827 00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:15,200 Speaker 4: That's I think what our main focus should be and 828 00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:18,400 Speaker 4: I appreciate you both because I know it's a tricky 829 00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:19,920 Speaker 4: out there to be outspoken. 830 00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:24,279 Speaker 5: So thank you, thank you guys, thank you so much. 831 00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:31,200 Speaker 6: It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 832 00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:33,680 Speaker 6: One more podcasts from the cool Zone Media. Visit our 833 00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:36,279 Speaker 6: website cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on 834 00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:39,920 Speaker 6: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 835 00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:42,360 Speaker 6: You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated 836 00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:45,440 Speaker 6: monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. 837 00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:46,480 Speaker 4: Thanks for listening,