1 00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: Hello everybody. I'm Jemma Spake and welcome back to the 2 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:11,280 Speaker 1: Psychology of Your Twenties, the podcast where we talk through 3 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 1: the biggest changes, moments, and transitions of our twenties and 4 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:24,960 Speaker 1: what they mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back 5 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, 6 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:31,160 Speaker 1: oh listeners, wherever you are in the world, it is 7 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: so great to have you here. Back for another episode 8 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: as we, of course break down the psychology of our twenties. Today, 9 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: we have a listener requested episode for you all, one 10 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: that a couple of you actually wrote in and DMed 11 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 1: me about after our Toxic Friendship episode. In that episode, 12 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:56,279 Speaker 1: we talked about the victim friend and it brought up 13 00:00:56,280 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: a lot of questions about the victim, the broader victim 14 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 1: mentality that we spoke about in that episode, and what 15 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 1: psychology actually says about people who always play the victim. 16 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: I fell down such a rabbit hole of information about this, 17 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 1: about this idea, this phenomena of this concept. And so 18 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:18,479 Speaker 1: today here we are, we are going to dive into 19 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:22,960 Speaker 1: the complex psychology behind the victim mentality. Now, I want 20 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:26,680 Speaker 1: to start with a very important note. When I talk 21 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:31,319 Speaker 1: about the victim mentality. I'm not trying to minimize the 22 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 1: experiences of people who have genuinely been victimized by abuse, 23 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 1: by systemic injustice, by trauma, by loss. If you have 24 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:42,959 Speaker 1: been through something that's left your body and your brain 25 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: on constant high alert, if you've learnt through experiences that 26 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: bad things do happen to you more than others, you 27 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 1: are not a problem or the problem that we are 28 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: unpacking today. What we are talking about is a pattern 29 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 1: of behavior or a psychological habit whereby people turn neutral 30 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:10,840 Speaker 1: situations or situations that simply don't go their way into 31 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: something that they use to gain sympathy from others for 32 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 1: their own gain. We're talking about situations where people learn 33 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 1: how to turn out natural sympathy against us in a 34 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 1: way that feels manipulative, ichy, wrong, in a way that 35 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 1: really lacks self awareness. So the question we're really asking 36 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:35,799 Speaker 1: today is how do we navigate these kinds of people, 37 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:40,919 Speaker 1: whether they're friends, family members, colleagues. How do we navigate 38 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:45,679 Speaker 1: people who truly do believe that everything goes wrong for them, 39 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:48,240 Speaker 1: that everybody is out to get them, that they are 40 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 1: the unluckiest person in the world, and why are they 41 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 1: the way they are? What made them this way? Do 42 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: they genuinely have any clarity about what they're doing? And yeah, 43 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 1: how do you go about it so that you are 44 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 1: aren't always in the firing line? Without further ado, I'm 45 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:07,520 Speaker 1: so excited for this episode. Let's get into the psychology 46 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:16,359 Speaker 1: behind the victim mentality. First of all, how does the 47 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 1: field of psychology talk about this phenomena? So in psychology 48 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:25,799 Speaker 1: the term victim mentality or victim mindset. It's also known 49 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 1: as that It basically refers to a habitual pattern of 50 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 1: thought in which a person consistently perceives themselves as a 51 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 1: victim of the negative actions of others or of fate, 52 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 1: even when the evidence suggests otherwise. That second half of 53 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 1: that statement is the most crucial part. The evidence suggests otherwise, 54 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: and as one twenty twenty study put it, across all situations, 55 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 1: even when outcomes differ, these people will still seek out 56 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 1: an explanation where they are the victim. That is, the 57 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 1: one constant in every situation. They are always the one 58 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 1: who is wronged, even when things change, even again when 59 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 1: the evidence is stacked up against them, even when people 60 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 1: tell them, no, you're wrong, The victim mentality is actually 61 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:19,799 Speaker 1: believed to be somewhat of a personality trait. We all 62 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 1: have the capacity to see ourselves as less or more 63 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:28,040 Speaker 1: as a victim, you know, regardless of actual circumstances. But 64 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:33,040 Speaker 1: people high in this victim trait tend to again interpret 65 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 1: neutral or ambiguous situations or events as hostile. They tend 66 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 1: to dwell on unfair treatment and ruminate longer than others, 67 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:47,479 Speaker 1: and they really struggle to move past what happened, meaning 68 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 1: that everything that maybe does prove this mentality or does 69 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 1: prove this state of mind for them gets held on 70 00:04:55,560 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 1: too longer than any situations that don't. It isn't that 71 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 1: they're lying. They do truly believe that the world is 72 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 1: against them. They're suffering from a delusion, a delusion of victimhood. 73 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 1: I used to have a coworker just like this. I'm 74 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:16,919 Speaker 1: not going to give any more specifics than that because 75 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 1: they do still work at this place. But anytime, like 76 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 1: somebody got a promotion, they would always turn it into 77 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 1: into about like how nothing good ever happened to them. 78 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 1: Anytime someone gave feedback, they were bullying her, they were 79 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:36,040 Speaker 1: ganging up on her. One time, one of our coworkers 80 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 1: won Do you know those car giveaways that they sometimes 81 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 1: have at supermarkets or like malls, where you can like 82 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,839 Speaker 1: win a Kia Carnival or like win a Suzuki Swift. 83 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 1: Like one time one of our coworkers won one of 84 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: those competitions, and I remember she went on and on 85 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: about how, you know, if she'd won the car, which 86 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: of course she wouldn't probably you know, it wouldn't even 87 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 1: work anyways. I bet it would be a scam. This 88 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 1: reality of her having won the card didn't even exist, 89 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 1: and yet she had turned a situation that had not happened, 90 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: that was not real, into one in which she was 91 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: still the victim, and it wasn't even her life or 92 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: her story. And I remember like that happening and being like, oh, 93 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: I actually feel really bad for you, because imagine, like 94 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 1: every possible scenario, even those that haven't occurred, still end 95 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:29,919 Speaker 1: up in the same way when you haven't even given 96 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: them the opportunity to prove you otherwise, it would be 97 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:36,119 Speaker 1: a pretty sad way to live. There are a few 98 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: key signs that someone you're dealing with has this kind 99 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: of victim mindset. Number one, the biggest of them all. 100 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:54,719 Speaker 1: They externalize blame they attribute their struggles, their faults, their 101 00:06:54,760 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 1: mistakes entirely to others, or to fate or to bad luck. 102 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: In psychology, there is this idea that people either have 103 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: an internal or external locus of control. This was a 104 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 1: theory that was developed in the nineteen fifties by a 105 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 1: psychologist called Julian Rodder. Basically, what he said is, if 106 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 1: you have an external locus, you see your life as 107 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 1: being controlled by outside forces that you have no control over, 108 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 1: so you shouldn't bother trying to change anything because these 109 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: forces are always going to win. If, on the other hand, 110 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 1: you have an internal locus of control, you basically believe 111 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 1: that you make your own luck, you can influence your life. 112 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 1: You can kind of guess which mentality the victim tends 113 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 1: to have the external locus, right, So that is why 114 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 1: blame is never something that they take on. It's always 115 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 1: about the outside world, outside circumstances, things that they have 116 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 1: no capacity to control. Number two. And this might surprise you, 117 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: but this mentality often makes the person feel morally superior 118 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:12,559 Speaker 1: and act that way as well. So in that twenty 119 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: twenty paper i mentioned earlier, researchers actually found that people 120 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 1: high in victimhood also show high levels of moral elitism, 121 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 1: which is basically a belief that they've been wronged and 122 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 1: as such they have a moral high ground. This can 123 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: make them feel as though they're entitled to more from life. 124 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:36,679 Speaker 1: They're entitled to more sympathy, They're entitled to more leniency. 125 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 1: They are allowed to retaliate because they see themselves as 126 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: fundamentally righteous because of what has happened to them in 127 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:48,679 Speaker 1: daily life. You know, how might this look. It might 128 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: look like someone who constantly is like, well, you know, 129 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: I'm going to steal that thing from the grocery store 130 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 1: because when I was a kid, like I never I 131 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: never got much, or you know, I expect you to 132 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 1: rescue me, like I can't possibly be responsible for dealing 133 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 1: with this situation, or they resist taking steps towards change. 134 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 1: They might say that they want help, but it has 135 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 1: to be on their terms, and anytime you try to 136 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 1: suggest something, they normally reject it. They feel entitled for 137 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:24,079 Speaker 1: more from you. They feel entitled to your resources, your time, 138 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 1: your energy, because it's owed to them by their bad luck, 139 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 1: by their bad circumstances. The third sign someone has a 140 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 1: victim mindset. They are also very self centered, They constantly 141 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 1: bring the conversation back to them. They lack empathy for 142 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:44,960 Speaker 1: other people's suffering. In fact, they see other people suffering 143 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 1: as an inconvenience to their own ability to talk about 144 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 1: their suffering. And they also really do tend to dramatize, overstate, 145 00:09:56,679 --> 00:10:00,679 Speaker 1: maybe even lie about experiences or event that they've been 146 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:05,960 Speaker 1: through in order to get attention. Although they see the 147 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 1: world as controlling their fate, they also still have a 148 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 1: lot in a deep sense of self focus, and they 149 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 1: tend to think about themselves more than other people do 150 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:19,840 Speaker 1: and more than they think about others, which is honestly fine, 151 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 1: Like you really you should be your number one priority, 152 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:27,720 Speaker 1: but for people with the victim mindset, it's the only priority. 153 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 1: Now this brings us to a big question. How do 154 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 1: people end up like this? How do two people who 155 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 1: have the same childhoods end up like this? How did 156 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 1: two people who grew up in the same city, country, 157 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: circle of friends, and you know, how do they end 158 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 1: up so that one of them takes accountability one of 159 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 1: them doesn't. Some of us are able to celebrate successes. 160 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 1: Other people can't stop complaining about how hard done by 161 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:58,599 Speaker 1: they are. The core truth and maybe one that's a 162 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 1: little bit uncomfortable is that it usually starts as protection. 163 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:09,840 Speaker 1: At its core, the victim mentality reflects a psychological position 164 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:13,959 Speaker 1: of learned helplessness. This was a concept first proposed by 165 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: Martin Sielgman in the nineteen seventies. We've mentioned it on 166 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 1: the podcast a few times before, but essentially, what he 167 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 1: found was that when people don't feel like they can 168 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:30,200 Speaker 1: escape their bad circumstances, even when they are clearly given 169 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 1: a route or an opportunity to do so, they still 170 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:38,439 Speaker 1: won't take it because they have learnt that nothing they 171 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 1: do matters. They have no control because in the past 172 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:47,440 Speaker 1: they've had no control. Let me be clear, for many people, 173 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 1: it's not an act, it's not even necessarily a conscious behavior. Instead, 174 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 1: it's actually often a functional freeze response away the brain 175 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 1: protects its after prolonged helplessness, prolonged trauma, prolonged invalidation through 176 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 1: a trauma lens. If we're having sympathy for these people, 177 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 1: it makes a lot of sense when someone experiences chronic maltreatment, 178 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 1: when they've experienced emotional abuse or neglect, or repeated failure 179 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:23,439 Speaker 1: from their relationships in some form or from the system, 180 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 1: their nervous system learns that agency is pointless, and the 181 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:32,200 Speaker 1: body goes into what trauma therapist Stephen Porgus calls the 182 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 1: dorsal vagal state. It's basically a state of shutdown, dissociation freeze, 183 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 1: and in that state, the message the brain is sending 184 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:49,080 Speaker 1: constantly is you're not safe and you can't do anything 185 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 1: about it. Don't fight, don't move, don't run away. Over time, 186 00:12:55,920 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 1: the physiological reaction can kind of crystallize into a psychological identity, aka, 187 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 1: I'm the person who bad things happen to I can't 188 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 1: do anything about this. Here's where the story gets a 189 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 1: little bit more layered. Yes, it does start as a 190 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 1: protective strategy most of the time, but it can also 191 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 1: take on manipulative qualities, especially when it develops into what 192 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:32,079 Speaker 1: we call covert narcissism. Covert narcissism it's also called vulnerable narcissism, 193 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 1: is a subtype of narcissistic personality disorder or narcissistic personality 194 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:42,199 Speaker 1: patterns that hides behind insecurity, shame, and self pity rather 195 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:48,840 Speaker 1: than arrogance. So unlike the classic grandiose narcissist who demands admiration, 196 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:54,320 Speaker 1: the covert narcissist seeks someone to rescue them and give 197 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 1: them validation and reassurance through their suffering. There was a 198 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:01,680 Speaker 1: twenty twenty four paper postblished in the Journal of Social 199 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 1: and Personality Psychology, and it found that covert narcissists don't 200 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 1: necessarily dominate rooms. They don't come in hot, they don't 201 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 1: need people to think they're the best, but they do 202 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: seek to elicit a caring response from others that actually 203 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 1: inevitably ends up dominating the emotional undertones of a space. 204 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 1: Their pain becomes the currency through which they maintain control 205 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 1: over a situation, over their relationships, over how other people 206 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 1: see them now. Because empathy is one of the strongest 207 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 1: human instincts, this strategy often works really well. For a while. 208 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 1: People rush into help. We want to comfort, we want 209 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 1: to reassure this person. We don't want them to suffer, 210 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 1: and this person loves that because it does feel amazing. 211 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 1: But soon those relationships do start to feel one way. 212 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 1: They start to feel like transactions, and of course, naturally 213 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 1: people are going to drop off, people are going to 214 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 1: leave that person's life. That actually increases their attempts for 215 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 1: victimhood and their idea of themselves as a victim, as 216 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 1: somebody that people leave, as somebody that people can't love, 217 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 1: not tracing it back to this pattern of behavior that 218 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 1: they're exhibiting. Still, it's important to note that even manipulative 219 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 1: forms of victimhood usually began as legitimate pain. The difference 220 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 1: is that the person never learnt how to self soothe 221 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 1: or regulate, so they just externalize that responsibility onto others. 222 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 1: They learnt that helplessness gets them what assertiveness never did, 223 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: And this passive state is again it is reinforced by 224 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 1: early experiences, early experiences of not being heard, but noticing 225 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 1: that actually, when you play up the powerlessness, when you 226 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 1: exacerbate or you know, really call in people to try 227 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 1: and comfort you and help you, you get the same 228 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 1: kind of love that you probably want it all along. Ultimately, 229 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 1: I think knowing this helps us hold kind of two 230 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 1: truths at the same time. Some people live from a 231 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 1: place of victimhood because life taught them to Others use 232 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 1: victimhood because it gives them power. Both need compassion. I 233 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 1: think the sentiment is that only one of them can 234 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 1: truly heal. The first kind, where it's really just because 235 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 1: of an absence of love and an absence of feeling 236 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 1: like they can take control of their life. That one 237 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 1: is something people can get over when they have crossed 238 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 1: into the state of like this is actually a really 239 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 1: great way to get what I want from people and 240 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 1: get what I want from situations. It's a lot harder, 241 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 1: if not almost possible, after a while, to come back 242 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 1: from that. Now. I'm sure at this point, if you've 243 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: listened this far, you probably have somebody in mind who 244 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 1: you are thinking of. Maybe it's your mother, maybe it's 245 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:15,440 Speaker 1: a friend of yours, maybe it's a family member, maybe 246 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:20,639 Speaker 1: it's like a colleague, maybe it's even your partner. And 247 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 1: the thing is is that you can have sympathy for 248 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 1: this person. You can understand that this mindset was born 249 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 1: from a deep pain and still be deeply frustrated by 250 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:35,879 Speaker 1: how it impacts you. So what I really want to 251 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:38,360 Speaker 1: talk about next is what do we do when this 252 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 1: kind of individual is in our life sucking energy from us? 253 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:44,119 Speaker 1: How do we handle this in a way that doesn't 254 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:49,680 Speaker 1: just further determine or prove their victim put to them. 255 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: We're going to talk about that after the shortbreak. Stay 256 00:17:53,080 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 1: with us. Here's something we can all admit. I think 257 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 1: pretty freely. Being around someone who is always a victim 258 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 1: is exhausting. It is exhausting, it's boring, it's annoying, Like, yeah, 259 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 1: those might we might not want to admit that, but 260 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 1: it's true, even if you have sympathy for them, even 261 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:24,440 Speaker 1: if you understand why they are the way they are. 262 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: Relationships run on reciprocity. Both people have to share emotional labor. 263 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:34,399 Speaker 1: Both people have to take responsibility. Both people have to 264 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 1: feel like they are seen as much as they are seeing. 265 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 1: You know what I mean. That doesn't change even if 266 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:43,920 Speaker 1: you know that someone is incapable of doing that, even 267 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 1: if you know why they are the way they are, 268 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 1: And over time, I think it makes us feel like 269 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: we aren't family members, We aren't friends with this person. 270 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:56,119 Speaker 1: We aren't truly a partner to this person. We are 271 00:18:56,160 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: a caretaker. There is this underlying dynamic of like you 272 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:02,960 Speaker 1: need me more than I need you. That really can 273 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 1: ruin a partnership and ruin a relationship. Do you want 274 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 1: to know something else? Really interesting? Maybe maybe not interesting, 275 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:13,119 Speaker 1: maybe kind of hard. The closer you get to someone 276 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:16,679 Speaker 1: like this, the kinder you actually are to them, the 277 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 1: more you do try to tolerate it, the worse. Their 278 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: behaviors actually become in a lot of literature, including from 279 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 1: psychologists like Juth Herman, who is a huge trauma expert. 280 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:32,479 Speaker 1: She wrote the foundational work Trauma and Recovery. What she 281 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:35,719 Speaker 1: describes is that trauma survivors who end up having a 282 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 1: victim mindset do often oscillate between craving closeness and really 283 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 1: fearing it, and so they often will begin to victimize 284 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 1: themselves as a victim of you in your presence, as 285 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:54,119 Speaker 1: a way to push away the love that they so 286 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 1: crave and also are so fearful of. The more as 287 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:01,400 Speaker 1: well that they trust to you. The less they will 288 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:07,359 Speaker 1: suppress these urges towards victimhood. The closer you get, the 289 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 1: more you see these patterns, the more you actually might 290 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:13,879 Speaker 1: not want to be around them, so you pull away. 291 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 1: The more it confirms to this person that they are 292 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 1: in fact a victim, the more they ramp up the 293 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:24,640 Speaker 1: victim mentality. It's a terrible cycle. It's very unfair, it's 294 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 1: very messy, and you know, for you, it's really difficult 295 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 1: because no matter how much reassurance or patience you offer, 296 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:35,880 Speaker 1: it may never be registered as safety. If the other 297 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: person's nervous system is wired constantly to anticipate harm or 298 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 1: if this has in fact become a deeply ingrained part 299 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 1: of their personality. And you know what, it also really sucks, 300 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:52,239 Speaker 1: let's just say it, to be trying really hard with 301 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:56,919 Speaker 1: this person, to have endless sympathy, and then occasionally to 302 00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 1: have them turn on you and blame you, blame you 303 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: for their hurt, blame you for their circumstances, blame you, 304 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 1: or see your winds or your success as just something 305 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 1: that further hurts them and proves that they are hard 306 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 1: done by. And you know, if you're somebody who was 307 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 1: naturally optimistic, and I know I am, it honestly feels 308 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:27,480 Speaker 1: contagious to be around somebody like this. Being around that 309 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 1: kind of constant pessimism or that powerlessness can drain even 310 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: the most empathetic, care free grass as green where you 311 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 1: water it kind of individual because empathy, by nature involves 312 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:46,640 Speaker 1: emotional mirroring. We feel what others feel. So when you're 313 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 1: sitting in front of somebody, there's a mirror up to 314 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:53,160 Speaker 1: your soul and all they're giving you is like, this sucks, 315 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 1: this is hopeless. We have no control. Life is hard 316 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 1: upon us. God you're going to feel that despair almost 317 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:03,359 Speaker 1: as deep as they do the work here. For anyone 318 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:07,119 Speaker 1: on either side of this pattern, it's not about blame. 319 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 1: It's about awareness. It's about an ability to recognize that 320 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:18,119 Speaker 1: reactivity and that negativity in those moments and know that 321 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 1: it isn't about this relationship. It's about the original relationships, 322 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:29,160 Speaker 1: the relationships with parents, caregivers, with community, with the system. 323 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 1: It's really important to know that this isn't actually about you. 324 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:35,439 Speaker 1: It has nothing to do with you. You are just 325 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:38,920 Speaker 1: a proxy for so much other baggage and so many 326 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 1: things that are going on behind the scenes that it's 327 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:45,439 Speaker 1: just getting taken out on you. Let's shift the focus 328 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:48,359 Speaker 1: a little bit. I'm gonna ask you to be completely 329 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 1: honest and self reflective with me for this next part, 330 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:54,440 Speaker 1: because it's one thing to talk about people who seem 331 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:57,920 Speaker 1: to live in the victim mindset. It's another to maybe 332 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:03,879 Speaker 1: recognize them when we may or may not slip into 333 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:08,359 Speaker 1: that way of thinking ourselves. It's normal to have certain 334 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,719 Speaker 1: periods where you're just like, this really sucks. Life really sucks. 335 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 1: You've been through a breakup, you got laid off, there 336 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 1: has been a string of disappointments, suddenly it feels like 337 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 1: the world is stacked against you. I've had this happen recently. 338 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:24,359 Speaker 1: You know. I had a huge opportunity that I've been 339 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 1: working on for years fall through recently, and you know, 340 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 1: it was just such a bummer. And then I had 341 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 1: a couple of days where I'm packing up, you know, 342 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 1: my life to move countries and things aren't going right. 343 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 1: And then you know, someone is It's just like a 344 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 1: bunch of things and you're just like, God, well is 345 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:44,399 Speaker 1: me list just all sucks? Life is terrible. And I 346 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 1: was in the studio the other day recording with my 347 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:50,200 Speaker 1: friend Rahene, and she was like, you know, she really 348 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 1: was just like, tough love, your life's not that hard. 349 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 1: And I was like, yeah, totally right. Thank you for 350 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 1: saying that to me, Like thank you for just being 351 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:02,399 Speaker 1: like it could be a lot worse, not in a 352 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 1: way that was like meant to undermine, but in a 353 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:06,439 Speaker 1: way that we're good friends. And she could really see that, 354 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 1: Like I was just getting into this spiral and it's comforting. 355 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 1: It's sometimes comforting to be like, yeah, you know, life 356 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,880 Speaker 1: just sucks for me right now, because it removes the 357 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 1: burden of choice it removes the burden of having to change. 358 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 1: And this actually means that you feel a lot more 359 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,199 Speaker 1: free and you feel like you don't actually have to 360 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 1: take responsibility. And that's great. That's actually quite a nice 361 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 1: feeling when we're in our twenties, when we're in our 362 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 1: thirties and it just feels like everything is suddenly our responsibility. 363 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:42,480 Speaker 1: Wouldn't it be nice if this, all these bad things 364 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:44,679 Speaker 1: that are happening to me are just not in my 365 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:48,639 Speaker 1: control at all. Psychologists actually have a name for this. 366 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 1: It's called self handicapping, and I wanted to include the 367 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:56,400 Speaker 1: original term for you guys. I don't love the language 368 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 1: of like self handicapping. I like to use the term 369 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:03,359 Speaker 1: self sabotaging. But it basically refers to this idea that 370 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:09,159 Speaker 1: we create explanations for our setbacks that protect our self esteem. 371 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 1: You know, this opportunity I didn't get. It's very easy 372 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 1: to say, like, well, it's because you know of this 373 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 1: and that and outside factors and these people were biased, 374 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 1: and you know this person that person. It's a lot 375 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,719 Speaker 1: harder to say maybe because I wasn't prepared, Maybe because 376 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,920 Speaker 1: you know, I didn't put my best foot forward. These 377 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:36,120 Speaker 1: stories aren't conscious lies. You know. Yeah, maybe the explanation 378 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:38,199 Speaker 1: is a lot more varied. Maybe it's a combination of 379 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,639 Speaker 1: external and internal factors. But when we only look at 380 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:45,239 Speaker 1: the external factor, we shield our ego, we shield our 381 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:49,440 Speaker 1: self esteem. We also don't have any way to grow, 382 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 1: and we don't actually learn the truth about what we 383 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:56,439 Speaker 1: could be doing, to ask for what we want to 384 00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 1: change our lives, to see positive changes in it, in 385 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:04,160 Speaker 1: our attitude. If you notice that your inner monologue sounds 386 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 1: like things never work out for me, people constantly let 387 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 1: me down, nobody does for me what I do for them, 388 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:14,960 Speaker 1: it might not mean that the world is against you. 389 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:19,359 Speaker 1: It might mean that you're actually repeating patterns that are 390 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 1: quite hurtful. Sometimes our brain uses very global, wide reaching 391 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:32,440 Speaker 1: statements to disguise a very specific kind of grief. Saying 392 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 1: everyone leaves me. It's easier than admitting, you know, someone 393 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 1: has left me and it really hurts, and this has 394 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 1: happened before, and I don't want to investigate why. Saying 395 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,879 Speaker 1: nobody ever puts into my relationship what I put into it, 396 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:51,959 Speaker 1: or nobody ever gives me what I give them. You know, 397 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,399 Speaker 1: it's a lot easier to say that than to, you know, 398 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 1: get into a conversation of like, am I people pleasing 399 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:03,159 Speaker 1: for others? Or for me? Am I actually a nice person? 400 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 1: Or do I expect things in return? Maybe I should 401 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 1: stop putting that resentment on others. Hard truths, I know, 402 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,640 Speaker 1: maybe they're not the thing you wanted to hear, But personally, 403 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 1: I just believe that we grow when we leave room 404 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 1: for the truth and room for investigating and being honest 405 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,400 Speaker 1: with ourselves about why we feel the way we feel 406 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 1: about our circumstances. And that doesn't mean blaming yourself for 407 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 1: what's out of your control. It means recognizing the places 408 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:37,359 Speaker 1: where you do have agency, even the tiniest bit, and 409 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:41,639 Speaker 1: using it. It's really common for people to switch between 410 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:46,400 Speaker 1: two polar opposites, blame or shame. It's either all their 411 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 1: fault or it's all my fault. The goal here is 412 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 1: the middle ground. We want to be able to recognize 413 00:27:54,400 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 1: something hurtful happened, but I still have choices now. Yes, 414 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,680 Speaker 1: I wish the hurtful thing hadn't happened. I wish life 415 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:08,359 Speaker 1: had been different. That doesn't change what's available to me 416 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 1: in this moment. It's very tempting to believe on the 417 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:16,120 Speaker 1: flip side, that empowerment means pretending nothing bad ever happens, 418 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,439 Speaker 1: but in the real world sometimes it does, and we 419 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 1: have to understand that we're allowed to move forward past 420 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,960 Speaker 1: that without making it our whole story, with still acknowledging like, 421 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,119 Speaker 1: this terrible thing happened. I don't want it to happen 422 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,879 Speaker 1: to other people. I don't necessarily I'm not grateful that 423 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 1: it happened. But what are my cards now? And that's 424 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 1: so much harder to face than the very simple, simple 425 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 1: explanation of I'm just a victim and these past circumstances 426 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 1: are proof that I will continue to be a victim 427 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 1: into the future, and there's no point wasting my time, 428 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 1: wasting my energy trying to change that. I hope you 429 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 1: guys get where I'm coming from. I hope you can 430 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 1: understand this isn't victim blaming. It's just a more nuanced 431 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:10,680 Speaker 1: discussion of like whether a victim mentality actually helps you, 432 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 1: and when acknowledging circumstances and the role they play is 433 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 1: valid and important, and when it becomes a way to 434 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 1: completely shield you or turn any form of agency invisible 435 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 1: in your eyes. Okay, we've talked about ourselves. We've talked 436 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 1: about the self aware people who are critical of themselves 437 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 1: when they fall into this mentality, know when they are 438 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:40,720 Speaker 1: adopting a victim mindset. Let's actually just turn back again 439 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 1: to when that mindset is applied upon us by people 440 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 1: beyond us, by parents, siblings, teachers, I don't know, friends, partners, colleagues. 441 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:55,680 Speaker 1: What do we do when we encounter somebody like that, 442 00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,960 Speaker 1: when we have the self awareness in ourselves to know that, 443 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,440 Speaker 1: sometimes we do a complain, But this is maybe a 444 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 1: level beyond what do we do about it? Okay, we're 445 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:10,240 Speaker 1: gonna take another short break, but when we return, let's 446 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 1: talk about, Yeah, how to manage forever victims in your life. 447 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 1: If you've got a forever victim in your life, there's 448 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 1: no one way to go about it, but here is 449 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,760 Speaker 1: perhaps the kindest way that you can that also won't 450 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 1: drag you down with them. Obviously, it starts with this 451 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:36,120 Speaker 1: understanding of what's underneath. If we look past the words, 452 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 1: the complaints that despare the blame, what we usually find 453 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 1: is fear. For people whose victim mindset developed through trauma, 454 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 1: this fear is learnt. It's a nervous system reaction doing 455 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 1: what it's always done for them, which is preparing for pain. 456 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 1: And that is why logic advice PEP talks aren't gonna help. 457 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:06,640 Speaker 1: When someone's brain believes danger or disappointment is inevitable, that 458 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:09,719 Speaker 1: optimism that you would maybe use as a shield like 459 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 1: that's just not going to help them. The most powerful 460 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,959 Speaker 1: thing that you can do is in fact, creating an 461 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 1: atmosphere of regulation. That means staying calm when they spiral, 462 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:29,720 Speaker 1: modeling steadiness, showing them through your tone and presence that 463 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 1: maybe this idea they have of themselves as a victim 464 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 1: is not true and also isn't helpful. Compassion, you know, 465 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:42,480 Speaker 1: it doesn't mean that you have to just go along 466 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: with it. You can validate someone's pain without validating the 467 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 1: hopelessness cycle or mindset that comes with it. You can 468 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:55,840 Speaker 1: say something like that sounds so painful, and I can 469 00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 1: see why that would hurt you. But I also believe that, like, 470 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 1: it's not always going to be like this. I also 471 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 1: believe that there's a lot that we can do to 472 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:06,800 Speaker 1: change that. I also believe that things are going to 473 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 1: still turn out okay. As a way to model that 474 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 1: this isn't the end of the world, and it also 475 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 1: may not be what they think it is, giving them 476 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 1: a hint of like, hey, I for one, belief you 477 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 1: have agency, invites them into a new story, like a 478 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:27,600 Speaker 1: new version of seeing themselves that also accepts the past, 479 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 1: but doesn't tolerate this forever mentality that they can never change. 480 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 1: So I think it's like you're safe, but also you're 481 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:39,240 Speaker 1: capable in therapy, I think this approach really mirrors something 482 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,800 Speaker 1: that we call motivational or interviewing. Instead of arguing with 483 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:47,440 Speaker 1: somebody's self defeating beliefs, you ask open ended questions in 484 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:51,240 Speaker 1: this technique that help them discover their own reasons for change. 485 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 1: You ask them, you know, what do you think life 486 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,640 Speaker 1: would look like if this pattern started to shift. What's 487 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 1: one thing you wish you felt different about. What's something 488 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 1: small that you can do that you can control right now? Yeah, 489 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,680 Speaker 1: these circumstances are overwhelming. Yeah, it's really really sucks. Who 490 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 1: didn't get that job? Sucks that that person broke up 491 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 1: with you. Let's think Bigger's what's gonna come for you next? 492 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:18,800 Speaker 1: What's around the corner that you're excited about? That second 493 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:22,000 Speaker 1: last one of what's something small you can control right now? 494 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 1: I love that I have a friend Emma. She is 495 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,800 Speaker 1: a social worker and one of the most beautiful humans alive, 496 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 1: but she she uses this on me sometimes. I don't 497 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:37,200 Speaker 1: think I have much of a victim mindset, but sometimes, 498 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,240 Speaker 1: you know, I just sometimes I like to winge and 499 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:43,520 Speaker 1: she tries to be sneaking about it, but I know 500 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:47,040 Speaker 1: she does it. She has such a positive way of being, like, 501 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:51,080 Speaker 1: let's redirect here, and it works. She doesn't have to 502 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:52,840 Speaker 1: do it very often, but it's so funny. I always 503 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 1: call her out on it. I'm like, you can't. You 504 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:57,719 Speaker 1: can't therapize me, Like I know what you're doing, And 505 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:00,720 Speaker 1: what these questions really do is like, if you're somebody 506 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 1: who can and wants to change, it just allows you 507 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,239 Speaker 1: to see that the door the door is open, and 508 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:13,000 Speaker 1: it bypasses defensiveness by really just being like, here's an 509 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,560 Speaker 1: invitation to take accountability now for those of us on 510 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,480 Speaker 1: the other side. It's also crucial that you set boundaries 511 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 1: around emotional labor, especially if this is somebody who is 512 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:27,080 Speaker 1: a family member, or somebody that you live with, or 513 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:30,839 Speaker 1: somebody that you're very close with. Of Course, I'm sure 514 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:34,239 Speaker 1: you love the people around you. You want them to 515 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:37,719 Speaker 1: feel great about themselves. There is a point where you 516 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,319 Speaker 1: cannot change them, and it's not your responsibility and it 517 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:45,439 Speaker 1: should not drag you down. Endless sympathy does not work 518 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 1: for people like this, let's be very very clear, and 519 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,719 Speaker 1: it doesn't help you either, even if you think you're 520 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:56,799 Speaker 1: being nice. Boundaries are what keeps that relationship's relationships sustainable. 521 00:34:57,400 --> 00:34:59,840 Speaker 1: Saying things like I really care about you, but I 522 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 1: I cannot keep having this conversation because it's starting to 523 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,960 Speaker 1: hurt me too, or I'm here for you, but I 524 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 1: need you to take the lead on what comes next. 525 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:12,239 Speaker 1: I need you to really try and help yourself in 526 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:17,319 Speaker 1: this situation, even saying things like Hey, I love you, 527 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:21,319 Speaker 1: but I can't be around this kind of negativity in 528 00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:24,000 Speaker 1: my life because it's really starting to change how I 529 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:26,520 Speaker 1: see myself and I don't think that's good for either 530 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:32,359 Speaker 1: of us. These phrases signal empathy, but also an expectation 531 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:35,920 Speaker 1: that you need to take charge if you want me 532 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,160 Speaker 1: in your life, if you want this to be a 533 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:41,880 Speaker 1: positive relationship, something needs to change. I saw this beautiful 534 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 1: quote the other day that said true empathy is not 535 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:49,279 Speaker 1: about absorbing someone's feelings, but witnessing them without losing ourselves 536 00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,960 Speaker 1: in the process. You know, it's very easy to think 537 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:56,880 Speaker 1: I'm being empathetic when actually you're just taking the emotion 538 00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:59,680 Speaker 1: away from them and placing it inside of you. It's 539 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:04,040 Speaker 1: easy to think I'm being empathetic when you're really maybe 540 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:08,319 Speaker 1: by accident, helping someone continue a cycle. When we overfunction 541 00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:14,480 Speaker 1: for somebody else through rescuing, fixing, excessive soothing, we actually 542 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:19,160 Speaker 1: reinforce the helplessness. We teach them safety exists through us 543 00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 1: and us only, and their central form of regulation becomes 544 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:27,440 Speaker 1: venting to us, becomes asking us to fix their problems, 545 00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:30,440 Speaker 1: becomes complaining to us and knowing that we're going to 546 00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:33,759 Speaker 1: be like, yeah, like you're totally right about that. You 547 00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:36,399 Speaker 1: are a victim, and you're going to stay that way. 548 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 1: Like that's not helpful at all. When we model stability, 549 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:44,440 Speaker 1: when we model boundaries, we teach them something subliminally. Now, 550 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:48,680 Speaker 1: sometimes despite all the empathy and all the listening, nothing changes. 551 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:53,080 Speaker 1: You know, some people just aren't going to change. And 552 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:56,200 Speaker 1: that is like a really hard truth about life, Like 553 00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:58,800 Speaker 1: they're not going to change, and they're not going to 554 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:03,840 Speaker 1: change for you, and that really sucks and it's a 555 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:08,120 Speaker 1: really hard thing to acknowledge. But you have to take 556 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:11,640 Speaker 1: the situation from there and just think about, Hey, what's 557 00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,479 Speaker 1: maybe best for me here. You'll know when it's time 558 00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:19,280 Speaker 1: to kind of maybe distance yourself from a person, maybe 559 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:24,839 Speaker 1: see them a lot less, maybe limit interactions when compassion 560 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:29,520 Speaker 1: starts turning into resentment. Resentment is your body telling you 561 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:33,120 Speaker 1: that your empathy levels are sinking, and they are sinking fast. 562 00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:36,359 Speaker 1: When you dread the next conversation, when you feel your 563 00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:38,880 Speaker 1: body tense every time you see their name pop up, 564 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:42,399 Speaker 1: those are the signals that your boundaries are being crossed repeatedly, 565 00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:47,680 Speaker 1: that this victim mindset is becoming contagious, and that you 566 00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:52,000 Speaker 1: aren't feeling good about this relationship. It is a signal 567 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:56,400 Speaker 1: that your genuine desire to help has swiftly entered the 568 00:37:56,480 --> 00:38:01,440 Speaker 1: territory of maladaptive people. Pleasing sometimes in these situations, like 569 00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 1: walking away is the kindest thing you can do for 570 00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:08,480 Speaker 1: both of you, or giving distances is also a kindness 571 00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:12,080 Speaker 1: so that this relationship doesn't end up just becoming a 572 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:17,120 Speaker 1: total dumbster fire that again makes them feel like a victim. 573 00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:20,720 Speaker 1: Giving yourself two weeks away from this person to see 574 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:26,399 Speaker 1: how your own life changes, whether you feel better, It's 575 00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:28,920 Speaker 1: just a little experiment just so that you know your 576 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:33,040 Speaker 1: own limits and you are able to put healthy boundaries 577 00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:36,520 Speaker 1: in distance between this person so that you can recuperate 578 00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:38,520 Speaker 1: and so that you do have the energy to be 579 00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:41,360 Speaker 1: around them for the good times as well as the 580 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,759 Speaker 1: bad times. If you need to distance yourself, do it 581 00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:46,560 Speaker 1: with the do it with clarity, Do it with the 582 00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:51,080 Speaker 1: clarity of like, I care about you, I want good 583 00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:54,440 Speaker 1: things for you. Right now, this dynamic isn't healthy for me. 584 00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:57,719 Speaker 1: I hope you get the support you deserve. I'm so 585 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:00,480 Speaker 1: excited to see you soon, but I'm just kind of 586 00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:02,560 Speaker 1: busy for the next couple of weeks and I just 587 00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:06,440 Speaker 1: really need to recharge. I've got my own things going on. 588 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:09,840 Speaker 1: I'll talk to you when I when I get the chance. 589 00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:16,760 Speaker 1: You know, it's harsh. It's probably something that not everyone 590 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:19,319 Speaker 1: is going to be willing or wants to do, but 591 00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:23,120 Speaker 1: it's probably important to learn that you are allowed to 592 00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:26,200 Speaker 1: just not be in somebody's life. If they constantly make 593 00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:29,600 Speaker 1: you feel terrible, and if you have done everything else 594 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:33,640 Speaker 1: on this list and this person does not change brings 595 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:39,799 Speaker 1: you down, is using the victim mentality for manipulative purposes. 596 00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:43,759 Speaker 1: You are allowed to change if they won't and you're 597 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:48,920 Speaker 1: allowed to exit the relationship for self care purposes and 598 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:52,080 Speaker 1: so that you can hear the truth is. You know, 599 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:56,080 Speaker 1: this might sound like a simple situation, I'm talking about 600 00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:59,360 Speaker 1: it rather than doing it. It's really complicated. It You 601 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:01,959 Speaker 1: really just have to determine what's right for you, whether 602 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:08,440 Speaker 1: this person is a manipulative victim or a compassionate victim. 603 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:12,160 Speaker 1: It's really complicated. I feel like we like to just 604 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:14,480 Speaker 1: throw around these terms of like that person has such 605 00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:18,440 Speaker 1: a victim mentality, not realizing like that these people also 606 00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:21,879 Speaker 1: have friends and family members and coworkers whose lives are 607 00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:24,600 Speaker 1: intertwined with them. We need like a better way of 608 00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:28,480 Speaker 1: dealing with it. But sometimes, like in the cases of control, 609 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:32,960 Speaker 1: in the cases where they're trying to guilt you or 610 00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:35,440 Speaker 1: use your empathy against you, like you can just be like, 611 00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:37,880 Speaker 1: this isn't what I want from my life, and you 612 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:41,200 Speaker 1: can provide distance and give yourself the distance to move 613 00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:44,600 Speaker 1: away from that person. I'm giving you permission to say 614 00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:49,400 Speaker 1: like that's actually okay, and the severity of the circumstances 615 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,239 Speaker 1: may actually call call for you to do that. You're 616 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:54,799 Speaker 1: not being cruel, that it's the kindest thing you can 617 00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:56,960 Speaker 1: do for yourself so that you don't turn into a 618 00:40:57,040 --> 00:40:59,960 Speaker 1: victim who then ends up victimizing somebody else, and it's 619 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:02,160 Speaker 1: sometimes the kindest thing you can do for them as well. 620 00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:05,000 Speaker 1: I hope this episode has given you a bit more 621 00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:09,160 Speaker 1: to think about. If you have made it this far, 622 00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:12,520 Speaker 1: if you are loyal all the way through a listener, 623 00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:15,960 Speaker 1: I want you to leave a little black heart emoji 624 00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:19,279 Speaker 1: down below. I think that's pretty symbolic somebody who has 625 00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:21,960 Speaker 1: a victim mindset. If you want to stay in the 626 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:24,479 Speaker 1: loop with other episodes that are coming out, you can 627 00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:28,840 Speaker 1: follow us on Instagram at that Psychology Podcast, and you 628 00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:31,920 Speaker 1: can also follow us here wherever you are listening. Make 629 00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:34,799 Speaker 1: sure you are subscribed. Please give us a five star 630 00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:37,520 Speaker 1: review if you feel cool to do so, but if 631 00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:39,600 Speaker 1: you don't, that's all right as well. I also want 632 00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:43,840 Speaker 1: to thank our amazing researcher Libby Colbert for her contributions 633 00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:47,279 Speaker 1: to this episode. We couldn't deal without her and all 634 00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:50,919 Speaker 1: of her help. But until next time, stay safe, be kind, 635 00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:55,040 Speaker 1: be gentle to yourself, good luck with the victims you're 636 00:41:55,080 --> 00:42:02,520 Speaker 1: dealing with, and we will talk very very soon.