WEBVTT - The Bachelor Who Was Betrayed | BONUS 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.840 Hi everyone, Andre here, I have some exciting news to share. 0:00:04.559 --> 0:00:09.040 ABC has turned Betrayal Weekly into an eight episode anthology, 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:12.799 which means each episode features one of your favorite Betrayal 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:16.439 Weekly stories. You'll get to see the people involved, hear 0:00:16.480 --> 0:00:19.759 from people who have never spoken before, and actually see 0:00:19.800 --> 0:00:23.200 where the story took place. We are so proud and 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:26.599 excited to share it with you all. It's called Betrayal, 0:00:26.800 --> 0:00:31.320 Secrets and Lies, and it premieres this Sunday, March twenty ninth, 0:00:31.400 --> 0:00:34.839 at ten pm Eastern Standard time, nine pm Central. 0:00:35.159 --> 0:00:36.000 Please check it out. 0:00:37.960 --> 0:00:42.279 I'm here today with Stephanie Young and Clayton Eckard. You 0:00:42.320 --> 0:00:45.280 are the host and you are the storyteller of our 0:00:45.440 --> 0:00:50.720 Glass podcast and ihearts new podcast, Love Trapped. We're in Austin, Texas. 0:00:51.080 --> 0:00:53.720 This is really exciting for people who don't know. Love 0:00:53.760 --> 0:00:59.360 Trapped is about your story, Clayton and your relationship with 0:00:59.440 --> 0:01:03.280 Laura Owen, which started as a business transaction and then 0:01:03.440 --> 0:01:07.760 turned into a paternity scandal and then. 0:01:07.800 --> 0:01:09.400 A three year pursuit for justice. 0:01:09.720 --> 0:01:13.200 Yes, you guys have done an incredible job and I'm 0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:15.640 just glad to talk a little bit about your show 0:01:15.800 --> 0:01:17.560 and why it's right for the Betrayal audience. 0:01:18.319 --> 0:01:21.880 Thanks for joining me today. Thanks for having us for 0:01:21.920 --> 0:01:22.880 the Betrayal audience. 0:01:22.959 --> 0:01:25.920 Can you tell them a little bit about who you 0:01:25.959 --> 0:01:27.080 are and what you do for the show. 0:01:27.720 --> 0:01:30.760 My name is Stephanie and I am the producer, writer, 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:34.119 and host of Love Trapped. I've been working on this 0:01:34.280 --> 0:01:38.399 since June of last year, so we're coming up on 0:01:38.480 --> 0:01:41.600 almost ten months and I think I've needed that entire 0:01:41.640 --> 0:01:43.840 time to do all of the research for this project. 0:01:46.080 --> 0:01:48.960 And I am Clayton and I am the liver of 0:01:49.040 --> 0:01:50.680 this whole experience. 0:01:50.840 --> 0:01:52.520 It's a life. 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:57.000 But I've been really grateful that I have a platform 0:01:57.840 --> 0:02:03.440 to help not only me, but the their victims with receiving justice. 0:02:04.120 --> 0:02:06.520 Give me a little bit of a top line about 0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:08.840 what's been going on for you in your life over 0:02:08.840 --> 0:02:12.440 the last few years and why you need justice. 0:02:12.880 --> 0:02:14.239 Well, I think you hit the nail on the head. 0:02:14.280 --> 0:02:19.000 It's been three years of my life that I am 0:02:19.040 --> 0:02:23.440 not able to let go of until there's resolution, and 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:29.320 currently it's just slowly chugging along, and she's still out 0:02:29.360 --> 0:02:35.320 there and about and has looked for her next victim. 0:02:36.320 --> 0:02:39.760 And for me, it's a matter of being able to 0:02:39.800 --> 0:02:42.640 stop all of this and make sure that she doesn't 0:02:42.639 --> 0:02:45.880 have the ability to continue to perform these antics that 0:02:46.000 --> 0:02:50.639 she's done for ten plus years. This goes far beyond me. 0:02:51.400 --> 0:02:53.080 So a little bit about love trapped. 0:02:53.160 --> 0:02:59.240 It's the story of your post Bachelor life, your experience 0:02:59.240 --> 0:03:04.040 on the show. You are still a bachelor yourself, yeah, but. 0:03:03.960 --> 0:03:05.440 Your experience on the Bachelor. 0:03:05.600 --> 0:03:08.800 And so we meet you on this podcast after like 0:03:08.840 --> 0:03:12.320 in the aftermath of that, and through your move to Arizona, 0:03:13.240 --> 0:03:16.320 you end up meeting a woman named Laura Owens, and 0:03:17.160 --> 0:03:22.680 through that meeting, that chance encounter, all this craziness and 0:03:22.760 --> 0:03:28.240 complicated stuff comes out of that meeting. When I first 0:03:28.320 --> 0:03:35.200 heard about your story, it feels like a brief romantic 0:03:35.520 --> 0:03:40.280 experience with a person doesn't work out. There's a moment 0:03:40.400 --> 0:03:44.640 of rejection that Laura can't face, and there is fallout 0:03:44.640 --> 0:03:48.760 from that And what was that? Like, how would you 0:03:48.760 --> 0:03:51.400 define that fallout? 0:03:51.840 --> 0:03:56.880 One of the darkest energies that I've ever experienced. It 0:03:56.960 --> 0:04:02.200 was so uncomfortable that I had instant chill and before 0:04:03.480 --> 0:04:07.600 she sent me the messages saying she was pregnant, I 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:09.720 had the exact thought in my head that I don't 0:04:09.760 --> 0:04:12.880 know what that just was, but whatever it was, it's 0:04:13.160 --> 0:04:18.279 far from over. And lo and behold eleven days later. 0:04:18.320 --> 0:04:21.560 From that point, you know, she sends the initial messages 0:04:21.600 --> 0:04:25.760 that she's pregnant. But it was a very, very uncomfortable presence. 0:04:26.360 --> 0:04:28.760 It's just it was as if the lights went off 0:04:28.800 --> 0:04:33.360 and she was no longer there. It's like nothing I've 0:04:33.440 --> 0:04:34.320 ever experienced. 0:04:34.800 --> 0:04:37.920 Right, So it became really clear that she wanted a 0:04:38.000 --> 0:04:42.640 romantic relationship with you. She wanted to have a dating 0:04:42.720 --> 0:04:45.560 relationship with you, long term relationship with you, and when 0:04:45.600 --> 0:04:49.120 that didn't work out, she was telling you that she 0:04:49.240 --> 0:04:50.120 was pregnant. 0:04:49.960 --> 0:04:57.200 And there was this she wanted to be connected with 0:04:57.240 --> 0:04:57.920 you in some way. 0:04:57.960 --> 0:05:01.160 It was trying to leverage this idea of you being 0:05:01.240 --> 0:05:04.560 potentially the father to stay in connection with you, and 0:05:04.760 --> 0:05:07.320 was doing whatever she could to stay in connection and 0:05:07.400 --> 0:05:10.840 keep you on the hook. One of the things that 0:05:10.880 --> 0:05:13.080 I think a lot of our betrayal listeners will relate 0:05:13.120 --> 0:05:16.000 to is that moment of when the mask comes off. 0:05:16.040 --> 0:05:17.080 We talk about it a lot. 0:05:17.200 --> 0:05:21.720 Actually, there is a moment in time when a lot 0:05:21.720 --> 0:05:27.200 of the storytellers I work with where they discover the 0:05:27.240 --> 0:05:30.359 day of discovery the husband that they've known for twenty 0:05:30.360 --> 0:05:35.960 five years then reveals their double life, and they physically change. Yeah, 0:05:36.480 --> 0:05:41.680 their voice changes, their face looks different. So I think 0:05:41.720 --> 0:05:44.560 a lot of our listeners and other stories can really 0:05:44.600 --> 0:05:47.520 relate to that moment of you saying no to Laura 0:05:47.680 --> 0:05:49.280 and then something shifts. 0:05:49.720 --> 0:05:52.240 Yeah. I mean I was just going back, as you're 0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:55.080 describing that, back into that moment, and I just chills 0:05:55.120 --> 0:06:00.960 again because her demeanor went from crying to stone cold, 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:05.320 just expressionless, and there was this darkness where her eyes 0:06:05.320 --> 0:06:07.680 didn't go all fully black, but it felt as if 0:06:07.680 --> 0:06:11.240 they did. And it was just this instant I said, 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:15.920 no means no, Laura, that there's nothing more here to explore. 0:06:16.640 --> 0:06:19.000 She wiped her last year and she said no, I understand, 0:06:19.440 --> 0:06:22.800 have a great day, and it was just this. It's 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:27.240 like two separate entities, like I was talking to one 0:06:27.560 --> 0:06:29.640 version and then all of a sudden, there was a 0:06:29.680 --> 0:06:33.520 switch that flipped. I mean, it was that sudden. So 0:06:33.800 --> 0:06:36.559 it's interesting that you say that that's what other people 0:06:36.560 --> 0:06:40.599 have experienced, because yeah, I saw it face to face, 0:06:40.760 --> 0:06:43.320 and I've just never experienced something like that. 0:06:43.760 --> 0:06:49.200 Yeah, after that interaction in the car, what happened from there? 0:06:50.040 --> 0:06:51.840 Tell us a little bit about the harassment, and then 0:06:52.040 --> 0:06:53.320 everything you had to go through. 0:06:53.839 --> 0:06:58.040 Yeah, so we were involved in a real estate transaction. 0:06:58.200 --> 0:07:00.320 She reached out to me originally to do real est date. 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:03.560 You know, I made the mistake of mixing business with 0:07:03.640 --> 0:07:07.159 pleasure and it wasn't Yeah, lesson learned. I don't do 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:13.440 that now, but I, you know, crossed that boundary. But 0:07:13.520 --> 0:07:15.560 then I had mentioned her that in the car the 0:07:15.600 --> 0:07:17.800 next day. I said that was unprofessional. You know, I 0:07:17.800 --> 0:07:19.640 can pass you off to another age, and she said, no, 0:07:19.880 --> 0:07:23.200 I want to work with you. I said, okay, let's 0:07:23.240 --> 0:07:25.960 keep professional from here on out. She said she agreed 0:07:25.960 --> 0:07:29.160 to it, but then she kept going back to trying 0:07:29.200 --> 0:07:31.240 to make it more than that. So over the course 0:07:31.280 --> 0:07:33.920 of the next few days, it was this, well, hey, 0:07:33.960 --> 0:07:35.680 I actually still want to explore this, And then it 0:07:35.720 --> 0:07:37.200 got to the point of if you're not willing to 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:40.120 explore a relationship, I'll just go work with somebody else, 0:07:40.480 --> 0:07:42.440 to which I said called her bluff. I said, okay, 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:45.680 then go do that, and then she said no, no, 0:07:45.720 --> 0:07:46.960 I really want to work with these It this back 0:07:47.000 --> 0:07:48.960 and forth, and it ultimately she just kept texting me, 0:07:49.080 --> 0:07:51.840 kept texting me, and then she started alluding to the 0:07:51.840 --> 0:07:54.480 fact that she was fertile and she knew that she 0:07:54.520 --> 0:07:56.920 was fertile during this period of her life, and she 0:07:57.000 --> 0:08:00.000 was concerned that night, even though we didn't have sexual intercourse, 0:08:00.360 --> 0:08:02.880 that when we were grinding, something could have fluid, could 0:08:02.880 --> 0:08:06.640 have you know, been transmitted. So she starts alluding to 0:08:06.680 --> 0:08:08.840 it before she said she was pregnant, and I'm like, no, 0:08:08.960 --> 0:08:10.640 I'm not doing this, and so I was like, hey, 0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:14.440 I'm going to block you like this. I don't want 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:16.920 anything more to do with you, like, please stop texting me. 0:08:16.960 --> 0:08:19.080 You're harassing me because there's constant messages coming in. We're 0:08:19.080 --> 0:08:23.120 talking paragraphs long. So I ended up blocking her and 0:08:23.160 --> 0:08:25.840 then that was, you know, eleven days or probably a 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:28.480 few days later after that. On day eleven from the 0:08:28.560 --> 0:08:30.520 time from when we originally hooked up, was when I 0:08:30.520 --> 0:08:34.160 got that email from her and she had sent over 0:08:34.200 --> 0:08:38.600 a positive pregnancy test and like a doctor's note. Yeah. 0:08:38.640 --> 0:08:42.480 And so it really has been this journey of proven 0:08:42.520 --> 0:08:46.319 that she could have never been pregnant, that you are 0:08:46.720 --> 0:08:47.319 not the father. 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:53.160 What has it been like covering this story, Stephanie. 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:58.000 It's been mind blowing because every time you think that 0:08:58.240 --> 0:09:01.440 you've heard it all, there's something else that comes out, 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:04.760 and you're just like, this can't possibly be real. And 0:09:05.600 --> 0:09:09.240 I think one of the most mind blowing things is 0:09:09.280 --> 0:09:13.120 the timeline of events. So in betrayal, you just mentioned 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:15.520 like some of these people have been together for twenty 0:09:15.559 --> 0:09:19.760 five years, and it's that, you know, shock of being 0:09:19.800 --> 0:09:23.880 betrayed by somebody that you've known that long. With Clayton's case, 0:09:24.280 --> 0:09:29.200 he met her via LinkedIn message on May seventeenth, the 0:09:29.240 --> 0:09:32.040 hookup happened on May twentieth, and then by June first, 0:09:32.120 --> 0:09:36.280 she was pregnant. So this is like a speedy timeline 0:09:36.720 --> 0:09:40.120 compared to some of the betrayal stories, so that to 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:44.640 me is shocking and covering that part of it, it's 0:09:44.679 --> 0:09:48.319 just like whoa, This is like a very quick timeline 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:50.080 to go from zero to one hundred. 0:09:50.320 --> 0:09:55.079 And the unrelenting barrage of information because she then filed 0:09:55.200 --> 0:09:59.080 like you've become inbroiled in just a legal battle. 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:04.679 She filed a parenting plan, which I couldn't believe and 0:10:04.920 --> 0:10:07.480 was in shock that I had to respond to it 0:10:07.600 --> 0:10:11.640 via the court system. Otherwise they would submit a default 0:10:11.720 --> 0:10:14.880 judgment and most times they would assume the majority of 0:10:14.880 --> 0:10:18.120 the time people found parenting plans are actually pregnant. So 0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:20.000 I was going to throw away the paperwork, and then 0:10:20.040 --> 0:10:22.120 I had someone on the on the illegal side of 0:10:22.120 --> 0:10:24.439 things that said, no, you can't do that. You need 0:10:24.480 --> 0:10:28.760 to respond, and I went into the court and he 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:31.600 the judge, asked me why I was, you know, countering 0:10:31.640 --> 0:10:35.520 this you know, parenting plan, and I said, because there 0:10:35.559 --> 0:10:38.320 are no children. He said, you mean like they haven't 0:10:38.360 --> 0:10:41.319 been born yet. I said no, there's no child or children, 0:10:41.400 --> 0:10:44.199 like they don't exist. And he just looked at me. 0:10:44.240 --> 0:10:46.000 He's like, are you are you being serious? Are you 0:10:46.000 --> 0:10:47.680 messing with me? I said no, I'm telling you she's 0:10:47.720 --> 0:10:50.240 making all this up. And he was just perplexed and 0:10:50.240 --> 0:10:53.360 he goes, okay, well I'll push this up the court. 0:10:53.480 --> 0:10:55.720 So he like basically just like push it into another 0:10:55.920 --> 0:10:58.680 realm of the court. But it was yeah, I'm like, 0:10:58.840 --> 0:11:01.240 I felt ridiculous. The whole thing was ridiculous. I'm like, 0:11:01.240 --> 0:11:03.120 I don't know how to respond to this. She's making 0:11:03.120 --> 0:11:06.520 it up. How do I prove this? And that's you 0:11:06.600 --> 0:11:08.760 know where we end up going with it was Okay, well, 0:11:08.840 --> 0:11:12.840 let's get her to prove pregnancy, because I mean, that's 0:11:12.840 --> 0:11:15.280 how I get out of this, you know, because this 0:11:15.520 --> 0:11:17.880 is something that now she's going to hold over me 0:11:18.559 --> 0:11:20.719 and how far is she going to take this? And 0:11:20.960 --> 0:11:24.199 you know, as we've just recently uncovered and obviously through 0:11:24.240 --> 0:11:27.080 the timeline of this podcast, like she took a public 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:30.480 so then it became a I need to prove to 0:11:30.520 --> 0:11:33.240 the public now, court of public opinion. I have to 0:11:33.240 --> 0:11:35.520 be able to prove that this is all lie. Yeah. 0:11:35.679 --> 0:11:37.720 I want to jump in and just say that from 0:11:37.720 --> 0:11:40.360 the time that she told Clayton she was pregnant to 0:11:40.400 --> 0:11:42.800 the time that she filed in the court in Arizona, 0:11:43.480 --> 0:11:46.280 it was only about eight weeks, so she was technically 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:50.080 still in her first trimester. And as a woman, you 0:11:50.120 --> 0:11:52.880 know that most people don't tell people that they're even 0:11:52.920 --> 0:11:56.280 pregnant until after the first time twelth weeks, right, Yeah, 0:11:56.360 --> 0:11:58.839 So I think that was another interesting part of this 0:11:59.440 --> 0:12:02.040 that from the time that she found out she was 0:12:02.080 --> 0:12:04.600 pregnant to the time that it was filed to establish 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:07.280 paternity in the court, there's only eight weeks. 0:12:07.600 --> 0:12:09.720 Well, I think what's interesting too. For one, you can 0:12:09.760 --> 0:12:12.360 tell she has the time better than I do at 0:12:12.400 --> 0:12:14.160 this point. For me, I mean, I just it just 0:12:14.200 --> 0:12:15.959 feels like a blur of three years. You know, it's 0:12:16.000 --> 0:12:18.920 like the emotions are so strong, but I don't know 0:12:18.960 --> 0:12:22.720 exactly on what dates these things happen. It just felt 0:12:22.720 --> 0:12:25.080 like it always smushed together. But the other side of 0:12:25.080 --> 0:12:29.120 it too, You see the ignorance of a man to 0:12:29.520 --> 0:12:33.480 people go, oh, come on day eleven and she's pregnant. 0:12:33.760 --> 0:12:35.480 Why would you even take that up and believe that 0:12:35.520 --> 0:12:39.120 in the first place? But because I was googling, I mean, 0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:41.360 as a man, I had no idea. I'm like, I 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:43.480 don't know how to fact check this or and I 0:12:43.520 --> 0:12:45.720 wasn't bringing it to my family originally. So this is 0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:48.840 just me living this experience and I'm just googling, and 0:12:48.880 --> 0:12:51.200 Google was like yeah, I mean, secondly, someone can miss 0:12:51.200 --> 0:12:53.880 their period and like show shows signs of pregnancy or 0:12:54.000 --> 0:12:57.560 be test positive as soon as like ten days. So 0:12:57.840 --> 0:13:00.160 I was like, well that we're on day eleven. It's 0:13:00.200 --> 0:13:01.920 just one of these things where at first I'm fighting 0:13:01.920 --> 0:13:04.280 this alone. Obviously I don't want this to get out 0:13:04.640 --> 0:13:07.760 to the public, but it's you know, there's like I 0:13:07.840 --> 0:13:10.760 also don't understand what I'm up against because I'm like, 0:13:10.840 --> 0:13:12.960 I don't know. I mean, I'm a guy. I don't 0:13:13.000 --> 0:13:16.160 know if this is possible, and so I'm just constantly googling, 0:13:16.800 --> 0:13:18.360 and I think she was too, though I think she 0:13:18.480 --> 0:13:21.120 was also you know, doing her homework. 0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:21.520 Yeah. 0:13:21.600 --> 0:13:22.040 Yeah. 0:13:22.080 --> 0:13:25.199 We do often deal with stories of people who are 0:13:25.200 --> 0:13:27.679 intimate partners or relationships that have been built over a 0:13:27.760 --> 0:13:33.600 number of years. This is about two strangers meeting. How 0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:39.040 did that affect you emotionally? Having your life completely upended? 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:41.760 Like do you think about if I just didn't respond 0:13:41.800 --> 0:13:44.559 to that LinkedIn message? Like where does your mind go? 0:13:45.679 --> 0:13:48.600 Yeah? You know, it depends when if you asked that 0:13:48.720 --> 0:13:51.240 question six months ago or even three months ago, and 0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:53.400 as opposed to now, I mean I've I've found the 0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:57.640 silver lining and all of this, but it certainly messed 0:13:57.640 --> 0:13:59.840 with me. I mean I lost a lot of trust 0:14:00.760 --> 0:14:05.040 and people. I mean I became very protective of my energy, 0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:07.600 which I needed to be more protective, but I almost 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:13.360 like overcompensated. But it's it's something where I struggled to 0:14:13.440 --> 0:14:17.960 function on a daily basis because I really felt, I 0:14:17.960 --> 0:14:21.000 mean very quickly, I realized this individual is looking to 0:14:21.040 --> 0:14:25.320 destroy me emotionally and render me useless, I mean, take 0:14:25.320 --> 0:14:27.200 me out of my ability to be able to function 0:14:27.320 --> 0:14:30.560 and work my jobs. And you know, it just felt 0:14:30.640 --> 0:14:33.840 very suffocating and this person also had time on their hands. 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:36.280 I mean she was working around the clock. I'd get 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:39.640 emails just all throughout the day. And as people find out, 0:14:39.680 --> 0:14:41.440 she doesn't have a job, so she made this her 0:14:41.440 --> 0:14:45.080 full time job. And it was very suffocating. Yeah, it 0:14:45.160 --> 0:14:48.640 was just hard to go about my daily life when like, 0:14:48.760 --> 0:14:53.000 you have this happening in the background. And I mean 0:14:53.000 --> 0:14:54.280 a lot of us can relate to this if you 0:14:54.360 --> 0:14:57.080 have you know, someone that's you know, abusive, or somebody 0:14:57.120 --> 0:14:59.320 that has some news that they're like, I'm going to 0:14:59.400 --> 0:15:01.920 you know, share this news with like or they're threatening 0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:04.440 you in some capacity. It's it's basically the thing that's 0:15:04.480 --> 0:15:05.720 on your mind at all times. 0:15:05.880 --> 0:15:06.400 It's stress. 0:15:06.520 --> 0:15:09.120 Yeah, it's just constantly weighing on you. So no matter 0:15:09.160 --> 0:15:12.680 what else you're doing in life, in any moment of silence, 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:16.000 you just go right back into that box. You know that. 0:15:16.080 --> 0:15:20.080 I so hard, like tried to compartmentalize. I just pushed 0:15:20.080 --> 0:15:22.200 everything in. I'm like, I have to go about my life, 0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:25.880 but this box exists. But any moment of silence, you know, 0:15:25.920 --> 0:15:28.120 where things slow down in life, you just go right 0:15:28.160 --> 0:15:30.680 back into the box. You're like, I can't help this 0:15:30.760 --> 0:15:33.920 because this is out of my control. Too. Yea, you 0:15:33.920 --> 0:15:37.720 know there's somebody on this other side that's plotting, and 0:15:38.440 --> 0:15:40.040 you don't know what their next move is going to be. 0:15:40.560 --> 0:15:44.360 Have you like envisioned what life would be like when 0:15:44.360 --> 0:15:48.040 you're done dealing with Laura owens Sport? 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:51.000 Do you feel like it's always going to be there. 0:15:52.960 --> 0:15:57.480 I'll be able to let go of a lot of anger. 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:02.080 There's there's a lot of anger that's rooted in this, 0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:07.160 not only just at her, but within myself. And I 0:16:07.240 --> 0:16:12.320 have to give myself grace. But I do see obviously 0:16:12.400 --> 0:16:16.280 that this was all brought on part and partly of 0:16:16.320 --> 0:16:19.560 my own doing because of the actions I took. But 0:16:19.640 --> 0:16:22.920 even leading up to it, I mean, I was utilizing 0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:26.600 marijuana at the time to cope with the stress from 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:30.120 the reality television experience that I just recently realized. I 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:33.000 still have not gotten over. I still harbor a lot 0:16:33.000 --> 0:16:38.480 of anger from that whole experience, And so there's parts 0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:40.360 of me that say, yeah, I mean, if you were 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:44.560 able to have healed from these experiences, you wouldn't have 0:16:44.600 --> 0:16:48.040 found yourself back in this cycle. You wouldn't have subjected 0:16:48.040 --> 0:16:51.280 yourself to this kind of energy. But you did. Because 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:54.080 you're not healed to the degree where you wouldn't place 0:16:54.120 --> 0:16:57.480 your energy in a person like her, and you know 0:16:57.520 --> 0:17:01.200 that's that's something that I do understand, is like, hey, 0:17:01.480 --> 0:17:04.320 you could have avoided this, but ultimately you were what 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:07.280 you were when you first met her, which was a 0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:09.200 damaged individual. Yeah. 0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:14.399 One of the things that we do on Betrayal is 0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:20.040 every storyteller works with a mental health provider or a 0:17:20.119 --> 0:17:25.320 therapist life coach in each season to unpack a certain 0:17:25.320 --> 0:17:27.960 part of their story and a little bit of a 0:17:27.960 --> 0:17:31.119 preview for season five, as Soska is working with Jessica Baum. 0:17:31.520 --> 0:17:36.560 They do just specializes in amago therapy, which is really understanding, 0:17:36.560 --> 0:17:39.200 like it's in her child work. And you know, when 0:17:39.200 --> 0:17:42.160 I met Soskia, she really wanted to unpack her childhood 0:17:42.200 --> 0:17:45.479 and really figure out what is her relationship with her 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:48.600 self worth and how she understands love and validation that 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:52.760 ultimately led her to My Club and Good And we 0:17:52.880 --> 0:17:56.080 hear those conversations in her therapy sessions. But it is 0:17:56.160 --> 0:18:00.760 really like it is important because as much as we 0:18:00.760 --> 0:18:03.760 can't control lour Owens, we can't control Mike clepen Goood. 0:18:03.760 --> 0:18:06.160 All we can do is really a look internally at 0:18:06.160 --> 0:18:08.639 ourselves and say, it's not our fault, but how did 0:18:08.680 --> 0:18:12.520 I get here? And it's just a really fascinating conversation 0:18:12.640 --> 0:18:15.080 and it's worked to be done, and like to do 0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:17.440 that work and to have that perspective, you should be 0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:18.119 proud of yourself. 0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:24.960 Yeah, and I appreciate that. I also just understand that. Yeah, 0:18:24.960 --> 0:18:29.440 I mean, my environment has obviously influenced me. And I've 0:18:29.480 --> 0:18:32.920 also went back into my childhood and I've seen why 0:18:33.000 --> 0:18:35.800 I've become the way that I have and why I 0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:40.320 take certain actions and subject myself to certain people. Maybe 0:18:40.400 --> 0:18:42.440 there was a lack of something in my childhood that 0:18:42.480 --> 0:18:45.320 I'm you know, seeking and there's certain things that I've uncovered. 0:18:46.080 --> 0:18:48.280 But ultimately too, I think it's just as important in 0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:50.640 order to heal from that and overcome it, you have 0:18:50.720 --> 0:18:54.200 to accept accountability that while you were doing the best 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:57.119 with what you could, you know you are still someone 0:18:57.200 --> 0:18:59.560 like you made decisions to put yourself in those in 0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:01.560 a position like that doesn't make it right, doesn't make 0:19:01.560 --> 0:19:03.840 it right that someone took advantage of me or anybody else. 0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:07.479 But there is the Okay, Hey, I want to better myself, 0:19:07.520 --> 0:19:09.760 so I need to understand that, Like I found my 0:19:09.800 --> 0:19:12.000 way here, but I can also take myself out of it. 0:19:12.080 --> 0:19:14.840 I mean, we're all doing our best right, so there's 0:19:14.920 --> 0:19:18.000 no victim blaming that should be had. It's more just, Hey, 0:19:18.600 --> 0:19:20.720 I am a human being, for the better and for 0:19:20.760 --> 0:19:23.800 the worse. I've made decisions in my life. My environment's 0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:27.600 impacted me. But I also want to be a better human. 0:19:27.680 --> 0:19:30.200 So how can I make sure that I don't find 0:19:30.200 --> 0:19:32.879 myself in this position again? You know what steps do 0:19:32.920 --> 0:19:36.000 I need to take to become stronger and more resilient 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:40.119 and just have more self love because I believe that 0:19:40.320 --> 0:19:44.000 me with more self love again would have never interacted 0:19:44.000 --> 0:19:44.920 with somebody like her. 0:19:45.440 --> 0:19:46.440 Yeah. 0:19:46.600 --> 0:19:49.440 I think something too that's so interesting from my perspective 0:19:50.160 --> 0:19:54.560 is the way that his emotions have shifted over You've 0:19:54.600 --> 0:19:57.040 seen it, oh yeah, over the last nine months. It's 0:19:57.119 --> 0:20:00.200 you know, there's times where he's really angry, there's times 0:20:00.240 --> 0:20:03.680 where he's said there's times where he's willing to forgive, 0:20:03.840 --> 0:20:06.240 and then there's times where he's like, no, I'm actually 0:20:06.240 --> 0:20:10.080 really mad. So to see this rollercoaster of emotion over 0:20:10.080 --> 0:20:12.720 the past nine to ten months has been interesting from 0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:13.399 my perspective. 0:20:13.480 --> 0:20:15.800 We talk about that a lot on Betrayal, about how 0:20:15.880 --> 0:20:19.240 progress is in a straight line, and like healing isn't linear, 0:20:19.520 --> 0:20:22.879 and sometimes you're just going around because you're meeting the 0:20:22.960 --> 0:20:25.800 experience a different phases of your own healing journey and 0:20:25.840 --> 0:20:30.360 your own like you're reading, you're engaging in certain books 0:20:30.359 --> 0:20:33.840 and podcasters and like material to better yourself, and so 0:20:33.960 --> 0:20:36.200 it makes you look at your experience in a different way. 0:20:36.840 --> 0:20:39.280 You know, you were talking about what are you reading 0:20:39.320 --> 0:20:39.680 right now? 0:20:40.920 --> 0:20:43.360 Yeah, the artist's probably not the best of that show, 0:20:43.480 --> 0:20:46.280 but but like you're constantly you're trying to but you're 0:20:46.320 --> 0:20:49.400 working through your experience, and so it's going to bring 0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:54.520 up complicated feelings about different choices and the different fallout. 0:20:55.000 --> 0:20:57.320 The last thing I want to say about the betrayal, 0:20:58.240 --> 0:21:00.520 but I think the audience is really going to relate to, 0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:04.399 is your journey with the justice system, because this is 0:21:04.440 --> 0:21:07.640 something that we cover a lot. You know, I deal 0:21:07.640 --> 0:21:14.760 with storytellers that you know, despite fear, despite being in 0:21:14.760 --> 0:21:18.480 a really dangerous situation, they couldn't get a protection from abuse. 0:21:19.680 --> 0:21:22.040 They really had to fight tooth and nail to get 0:21:22.160 --> 0:21:26.240 any acknowledgment from the court system. And so what is 0:21:26.280 --> 0:21:29.680 complicated about your story as someone who's actually being able 0:21:29.720 --> 0:21:34.960 to navigate the criminal justice system pretty seamlessly in ways 0:21:35.000 --> 0:21:38.200 that our storytellers actually struggle to, which is going to 0:21:38.240 --> 0:21:40.359 be really hard for some of our listeners to listen to. 0:21:40.480 --> 0:21:44.159 But it's fascinating. What is it like to be in 0:21:44.160 --> 0:21:46.280 a courtroom like in the scene that you were just 0:21:46.320 --> 0:21:52.040 telling me about. It's a serious place, serious people. Yeah, 0:21:52.119 --> 0:21:53.960 but what are we even talking about here? There's not 0:21:54.040 --> 0:21:56.000 even a real pregnancy. It's absurd. 0:21:56.280 --> 0:21:59.920 Yeah, like that duality is mind beat. 0:22:00.800 --> 0:22:03.679