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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the best of Coast to Coast podcasts.

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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on

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Speaker 1: iHeart Radio. Bill as Lauren Weinstein, Coast to Coast AM

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Speaker 1: security and Internet advisor said last half hour, there are

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Speaker 1: no like uniform rules when it comes to privacy, especially

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Speaker 1: state to state, city to city, certainly not country to country.

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Speaker 1: But I think it was I think it was surprised.

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Speaker 1: I think people are always surprised when somebody like an

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Speaker 1: attorney would record a client, and yet that seemed to

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Speaker 1: be what some of the conversation evolved around today with

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Speaker 1: the release of that particular aspect of this story about

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Speaker 1: President Trump. What are what are the rules about attorneys

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Speaker 1: recording clients? Do you know, as far as I know,

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Speaker 1: one of the things here is you're not just talking

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Speaker 1: about about laws. You're talking about like cannons of professional

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Speaker 1: ethics and things like that that may not have the

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Speaker 1: force of law, but can involve whether or not you

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Speaker 1: keep your your your law license and such in general.

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Speaker 1: And I was following the story like like you know,

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Speaker 1: most people today about Michael Cohen and the tapes, and

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Speaker 1: of course all we heard about today was one tape,

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Speaker 1: and we can assume there are lots more tapes because

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Speaker 1: if you have a habit of recording your your clients,

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Speaker 1: who probably you know, are doing it on a fairly

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Speaker 1: routine basis. Um, it's it's certainly is a is a

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Speaker 1: as an ethical kind of kind of shading to it. Um,

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Speaker 1: It's one thing to inform a client that I'm not

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Speaker 1: a lawyer, so I'm not no, no, this is really

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Speaker 1: this is key here. But but it's one thing to

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Speaker 1: inform your client, Look, I'm going to record this that

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Speaker 1: we have have a record of this discussion and the

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Speaker 1: clients is fine, And it's another thing to just do it.

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Speaker 1: And the stories going around are saying that that we're

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Speaker 1: saying that Cohen would sometimes just kind of play these

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Speaker 1: types of trump for for other people and things like that,

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Speaker 1: which which also seems unethical. Now, the ethics of the

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Speaker 1: recordings are are different from the legality of the recording.

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Speaker 1: And and as you suggested, there are no standard laws

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Speaker 1: on this, and and they vary widely here in the

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Speaker 1: US on a state to state basis. So and that

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Speaker 1: that come down to it's it's a one party or

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Speaker 1: a two party state for recording, or you have to

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Speaker 1: have the other person's permission or But there are some

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Speaker 1: states and I'm assuming New Jersey is one of them,

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Speaker 1: I didn't check, but most of them are where it's

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Speaker 1: a one party permission state and only one of the

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Speaker 1: two people has to know that there's a recording going on.

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Speaker 1: That's to prevent somebody else from eavesdropping and recording a

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Speaker 1: conversation in which they are not a participant, right the

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Speaker 1: the the it's a different model when you have, say

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Speaker 1: somebody's sitting who is not a party to the conversation.

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Speaker 1: And of course you could have more than two parties

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Speaker 1: on a conversation. And so when we say two party,

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Speaker 1: that's sort of shorthand for all party that's perfect party

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Speaker 1: participating in the conversation. That's different from somebody, whether it's

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Speaker 1: whether it's a law enforcement or somebody else who is

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Speaker 1: an external party, a third party who is recording the conversation.

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Speaker 1: That kind of thing will normally always require excuse me,

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Speaker 1: a warrant of some sort or other legal special legal justification. Now,

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Speaker 1: when it comes to the individuals who are participating in

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Speaker 1: the conversation, you're absolutely right. Most states are one party state.

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Speaker 1: All that means is that if only one party it's

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Speaker 1: the conversation, wants to record it, they just record it.

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Speaker 1: They don't have to to tell the other people they're

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Speaker 1: doing it. From an ethical standpoint, they but maybe they don't.

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Speaker 1: And in one sense, I mean here, let me make

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Speaker 1: an argument for something on this. So, you know, one

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Speaker 1: party state. You know, I think it's incumbent on us

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Speaker 1: to find out, like where we live and what the

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Speaker 1: rules are, and is it aren't we Maybe we're at

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Speaker 1: a place in our culture, you know, the story arc

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Speaker 1: of litigation in the United States where one is wise

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Speaker 1: to just assume, with all of the cell phone cameras

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Speaker 1: and all of the you know, security cameras and microphones

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Speaker 1: that exist everywhere, that nobody is seeking your permission, but

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Speaker 1: you should just assume at every moment of every day

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Speaker 1: you're being recorded and conduct yourself accordingly. Yeah, I I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know you're you're probably pretty safe in your bathroom

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Speaker 1: at home, you know, right, we hope, But once you

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Speaker 1: go out the front door, are there are cameras everywhere?

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Speaker 1: There are security of people have security cameras pointed in

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Speaker 1: all directions and and everything else. Um, the the rules

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Speaker 1: actually are are somewhat different for video and audio. So

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Speaker 1: that's one thing, you know, we're talking about recording conversations.

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Speaker 1: There can be differences when it comes to like video

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Speaker 1: cameras where there's no audio being recorded. You you brought

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Speaker 1: up the situation of could you put on a shirt

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Speaker 1: right that said don't record me with with that happening

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Speaker 1: only only in a in a multiple party state, in

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Speaker 1: a two party state, because that that might be reasonably

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Speaker 1: construed as saying, you know, no, I'm not giving permission.

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Speaker 1: But if you're in a white party state, you don't

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Speaker 1: have to give permission, So the shirt would be would

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Speaker 1: be meaningless except as a fashion statement. Perhaps. All right,

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Speaker 1: so let me let me let me extrapolate that a

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Speaker 1: little bit more. Okay, let me just pull on that

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Speaker 1: a little bit. So if part of what I'm I'm

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Speaker 1: wondering about in this way in which we're starting to

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Speaker 1: think about recording and being whether we're being recorded, is

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Speaker 1: whether or not we should also be more proactive about

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Speaker 1: recording ourselves. And I give you as an example of that.

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Speaker 1: Both something that happened to me, which I'll get back

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Speaker 1: to you, but also I was when I was online

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Speaker 1: today and I was going around I was reading some

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Speaker 1: of the comments on about this story about about Cohen

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Speaker 1: recording his clients. As I read somebody posting on a

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Speaker 1: on a site and said, uh, I never go to

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Speaker 1: my lawyer's office without recording him, and that I record

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Speaker 1: every transaction that happens, especially when it comes to and

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Speaker 1: then I was like, dang, duh when it comes to wills,

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Speaker 1: when it comes to financial issues, is that you know

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Speaker 1: they they're recording you when you call up to you know?

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Speaker 1: The only one I know is Charles Schwab. They're recording you.

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Speaker 1: But why not record them? Maybe that's our clue is

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Speaker 1: it's not a matter I there's too much recording is

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Speaker 1: a new to for us to really be protected. We're

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Speaker 1: not doing enough recording. We got to protect ourselves. I

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Speaker 1: mean I have I have actually actually done that myself

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Speaker 1: here and now we're here in California it's a two

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Speaker 1: party state. Whenever I've done that, I have informed the

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Speaker 1: other party that I'm going to be making the recording

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Speaker 1: and saying, you know, if you continue this recording with me,

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Speaker 1: I'm treating that as permission to to go ahead, and

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Speaker 1: they say, okay, we'll go ahead. I give you permission. Um.

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Speaker 1: And I've done that with call centers, you know, where

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Speaker 1: you get the recording that says, you know, for training purposes, right,

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Speaker 1: for training purposes, this call maybe recorded or model our

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Speaker 1: lawyer is happy. And if there's a conversation that I

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Speaker 1: feel I need a record of, I'll say, by the

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Speaker 1: by the way, I'm informing you here that this conversation

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Speaker 1: is being being recorded, and if we continue it, this

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Speaker 1: is considered to be a cent just like your recording

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Speaker 1: was to me, exactly the same word I try to

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Speaker 1: use the same words that they're recording is. And I've

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Speaker 1: never had a problem with that. I've always had They've

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Speaker 1: always had fine, go ahead and go ahead and record it.

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Speaker 1: But in the context where you're making recordings without informing

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Speaker 1: the other party and giving them a chance to say

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Speaker 1: no or to leave the call at that point. Um,

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Speaker 1: then you're you're making a decision. And you know, and

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Speaker 1: this is something I would recommend against to make illegal

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Speaker 1: recordings because you may not be able to use them anyway. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, they may feel make you feel better, or

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Speaker 1: they may be be useful to you in terms of

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Speaker 1: personal recollections, but if you have some intention of using

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Speaker 1: them in some legal context and their illicit recordings, they're

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Speaker 1: not They're not going to do you any any good. Um.

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Speaker 1: And and that's this This kind of these laws have

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Speaker 1: been pretty well hashed out. I mean, there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of confusion from state to state. But you will note

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Speaker 1: that the the just ubiquitous nature of these of these

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Speaker 1: preamble barkers that you hear on call centers that have

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Speaker 1: all basically the same wording. You know, and they say this,

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Speaker 1: this call may be recorded or monitored for for this purpose,

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Speaker 1: of that purpose, because it has been determined that if

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Speaker 1: you continue to call at that point, that's considered to

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Speaker 1: be providing yours. So I want to leave a message

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Speaker 1: on their voicemail that you know, if you talk after

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Speaker 1: the beep, you have given your You have given your consent, Son,

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Speaker 1: that doesn't necessarily mean that you absolutely come out and

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Speaker 1: literally say yes, I consent. Continuing the conversation when you

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Speaker 1: have a reasonable uh knowledge that you're going to be

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Speaker 1: recorded from that point is considered to be conserned. And yet,

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Speaker 1: with California even being a two party state, I'm willing

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Speaker 1: to present to you a wrinkle across universities, colleges, high

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Speaker 1: school campuses. It never used to be a thing to

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Speaker 1: record a lecture. In fact, you used to be that

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Speaker 1: the professors would encourage the recording of a lecture. Especially

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Speaker 1: they would say record this, and people would I knew,

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Speaker 1: people have brought little decks right, send them up there,

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Speaker 1: or they were in law school or whatever, and then

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Speaker 1: transcribe this later on. And you know, this was a

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Speaker 1: big thing. I remember when, which is now considerable number

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Speaker 1: of years ago, there would be students who would have

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Speaker 1: little little portable cassette recorders and they would put them

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Speaker 1: on the table near the podium where the professor was

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Speaker 1: in recording. And I don't remember many professors saying don't

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Speaker 1: don't do that, not then. But now you have the

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Speaker 1: case where some of these recordings have been, for lack

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Speaker 1: of a better term, weaponized, and something that a professor

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Speaker 1: would say in a class to a student who didn't

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Speaker 1: like that particular opinion then takes that recording and has

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Speaker 1: been making you know, national trying to turn some professor

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Speaker 1: into a national disgrace, and so they take a recording,

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Speaker 1: maybe out of context, maybe not. So what this created

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Speaker 1: was places where students were being told no, you may

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Speaker 1: not record my class, which becomes a whole another thing.

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Speaker 1: It's like, well, then I have to only get one

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Speaker 1: shot to write it down, yep, And so I mean

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Speaker 1: I I for one when I when I teach, I

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Speaker 1: just say I have nothing to hide, so record away.

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Speaker 1: I don't care. But I have I known other professors

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Speaker 1: who said I'm sick of it, and no they're not

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Speaker 1: allowed to record it because some students who get who

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Speaker 1: are troublesome, um may go back and you know, sort

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Speaker 1: of cherry pick out some quotes and start making a

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Speaker 1: big deal out of it, and that's just not worth

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Speaker 1: it to them. From a legal standpoint, I don't see

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Speaker 1: an easy way out from under that unless you're in

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Speaker 1: a situation where the college of the university, whatever the

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Speaker 1: educational institution is has an overriding policy. I mean, it

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Speaker 1: seems and I this is something I would This would

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Speaker 1: be something I'd have to research because now you're talking

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Speaker 1: about layers of regulations and laws. But if, for example,

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Speaker 1: university had a policy that said, one of the conditions

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Speaker 1: for teaching here, being a professor here is that to

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Speaker 1: allow your lectures to be recorded, and then and then

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Speaker 1: the professor said I don't want you to record. Uh.

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Speaker 1: That would from the from the legal standpoint of the

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Speaker 1: state laws on recordings, that the professor would be within

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Speaker 1: his rights, but he would also be violating in this

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Speaker 1: case the university rules, which would allow the university, presumably

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Speaker 1: to take punitive action against against that professor. So I

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Speaker 1: can get kind of complicated. I know of at least

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Speaker 1: one school where the rule is you may not record

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Speaker 1: um a class without the professor's permission explicit permission. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and and and and and and and the way the

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Speaker 1: laws are usually written that that would typically be a

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Speaker 1: an enforceable kind of rule. Listen to more Coast to

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Speaker 1: Coast a m every weeknight at one a m. Eastern

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Speaker 1: and go to Coast to Coast am dot com for

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Speaker 1: more