WEBVTT - Dann Huff 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:13.320 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the bobst Podcast. My guest 0:00:13.360 --> 0:00:18.400 today is Dan Huff. We'll do somet of guitarists extraordinaire. Dan, 0:00:18.640 --> 0:00:20.400 a lot to have you on the podcast. Thank you 0:00:20.480 --> 0:00:22.960 very much, Bob, honored to be here. Okay, when we 0:00:22.960 --> 0:00:25.640 were setting up the time, you say you were tracking 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:28.480 until six. What are you working on today? I'm working 0:00:28.480 --> 0:00:31.120 on a young new artist. You will not have heard 0:00:31.160 --> 0:00:33.839 of him. His name is cam Marlowe spelled with a 0:00:33.960 --> 0:00:37.360 K and uh new one of the new kind of 0:00:37.560 --> 0:00:41.559 breed of artists here in Nashville. He's staggering. He's an 0:00:41.560 --> 0:00:46.080 alpha male vocalist, and by that I mean literally every 0:00:46.120 --> 0:00:50.480 take he sings on the tracking session would be considered 0:00:50.479 --> 0:00:52.960 a comp a first rate vocal He's that it's like 0:00:52.960 --> 0:00:56.440 old school, old school type of recording. As a matter 0:00:56.480 --> 0:00:58.320 of fact, he's so good that I encourage him to 0:00:58.320 --> 0:01:00.880 get live vocals on the tracks, which is unheard of 0:01:00.920 --> 0:01:03.240 these days. How did you get involved? Like I do 0:01:03.280 --> 0:01:06.360 pretty much with everybody, every artist that usually the label 0:01:06.440 --> 0:01:09.320 calls me and we'll say we have somebody that we're 0:01:09.640 --> 0:01:11.600 really excited about and we think you'd be a good 0:01:11.640 --> 0:01:14.679 fit for for the artist and they usually set up 0:01:14.680 --> 0:01:17.360 a meeting and you know, usually goes over pretty well, 0:01:17.840 --> 0:01:21.959 and then it's just working out the I don't develop 0:01:22.000 --> 0:01:24.160 these artists. They they call me to make records that 0:01:24.240 --> 0:01:26.640 sound like singles and and you know, I mean it's 0:01:26.640 --> 0:01:28.880 such a cliche thing, but they want hit records, right, 0:01:29.000 --> 0:01:32.600 So right, that's that's it's I put my shoes on 0:01:32.600 --> 0:01:34.679 one at a time, right, and then you want to 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:38.400 make hit records. But so so it's it's kind of 0:01:38.400 --> 0:01:42.040 like a shotgun marriage. You're you're you're trying to two 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:48.840 digest the music, the the the vision of an artist, 0:01:48.880 --> 0:01:50.960 and you go in the studio and start. And so 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:53.160 that's it, you know, And that's that's kind of what 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:57.200 I've made a living doing the last years, all my 0:01:57.320 --> 0:02:00.480 years of playing a studio sessions. Is a good tar player. 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:03.800 I had no idea, but it was only in preparation 0:02:03.880 --> 0:02:05.960 for what I do. Now, Okay, let's droll down a 0:02:06.000 --> 0:02:08.840 little bit. They say we want you to work on 0:02:08.880 --> 0:02:11.480 this record, want you to make a record, They give 0:02:11.520 --> 0:02:13.919 you the music. How long does it take to decide? 0:02:14.040 --> 0:02:16.160 And sometimes do you say no? I do say no, 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:19.520 But that brings up a good point. I love to work, 0:02:19.639 --> 0:02:23.639 so I'll default to yes more than not because I'm 0:02:23.680 --> 0:02:26.640 fortunate that I have a track record. Labels are pretty 0:02:26.639 --> 0:02:28.799 selective who they're gonna bring me. It's gonna be pretty 0:02:28.800 --> 0:02:31.799 top shelf, and that sounds if it sounds up to it. 0:02:31.880 --> 0:02:33.400 I don't mean it to be that way at all. 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:35.880 It's just it's I'm I'm I'm at a good point. 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:37.560 I should say that they bring me a really good 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:40.760 artists and uhan, once in a while it will be 0:02:40.800 --> 0:02:42.600 a note. But but for the most part, you know, 0:02:42.680 --> 0:02:44.960 if I can fit it into my schedule, it's it's 0:02:45.000 --> 0:02:47.760 a yes, you know, and I've been doing it long enough. 0:02:47.880 --> 0:02:52.200 Or I really enjoy the Rubik's cube of trying to 0:02:52.240 --> 0:02:55.720 figure out where people are at musically. At my heart, 0:02:55.760 --> 0:02:58.120 I'm a session musician, is what I am. I mean, 0:02:58.160 --> 0:03:02.679 I'm not a UM Well, other people would argue and 0:03:02.720 --> 0:03:05.760 say I'm a producer or heart, I see the world 0:03:05.760 --> 0:03:08.160 through the prism of of a guitar and then it 0:03:08.200 --> 0:03:11.360 goes out exponentially. But there's always a way to figure 0:03:11.400 --> 0:03:13.840 out music, you know, And I've always enjoyed so many 0:03:13.919 --> 0:03:18.280 types of music, so uh, it's it's not always predicated 0:03:18.400 --> 0:03:22.239 on on on one thing or another. Obviously, I'm I'm 0:03:22.280 --> 0:03:25.600 one of the older guys uh in in my business 0:03:25.680 --> 0:03:28.200 right now. I'm I'm I'm way on the old side. 0:03:28.680 --> 0:03:30.760 As a matter of fact, I remember being a young, 0:03:30.800 --> 0:03:33.880 little snot nose guitar player in Los Angeles when when 0:03:33.919 --> 0:03:36.360 I was in my twenties and I would see people 0:03:36.360 --> 0:03:38.640 in their forties and think, what the hell are they 0:03:38.680 --> 0:03:42.800 doing in the studio those old men? Yeah, yeah, by 0:03:42.920 --> 0:03:45.920 by those by dog years. I'm I'm Methuselah right now. 0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:49.200 You know, Okay, let's assume you get the music, you 0:03:49.320 --> 0:03:52.480 say go, then you want to meet the artists. What 0:03:52.520 --> 0:03:55.240 does that experience like? It like meeting anybody? I mean, 0:03:55.440 --> 0:04:00.360 you know, you know personalities. You many times you hear 0:04:00.440 --> 0:04:03.960 somebody sing, you hear what they do musically, and it 0:04:04.040 --> 0:04:06.520 has nothing to do with the person their personality when 0:04:06.560 --> 0:04:09.560 you meet him in a room. More than not, most 0:04:09.680 --> 0:04:13.080 people that I that I work with, they they they're big, 0:04:13.200 --> 0:04:15.760 big personalities, and then you meet them and they're they're 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:18.520 they're shy, removed, you know. I mean, like I guess 0:04:18.520 --> 0:04:22.080 like a lot of entertainers are. They they have specifically 0:04:22.360 --> 0:04:25.599 that they do, and they have a language and and 0:04:26.560 --> 0:04:31.960 my job at that point is not too um, it 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:34.400 is not to ingratiate them to me, It's I had 0:04:34.440 --> 0:04:36.560 to figure out their language. I had to figure out 0:04:36.600 --> 0:04:40.239 what they're trying to say. I mean, musicians don't always 0:04:40.520 --> 0:04:43.880 use the same adjectives. Right. When somebody talks about something 0:04:43.920 --> 0:04:46.240 being big and expansive, Well, I mean, what does that mean? 0:04:46.240 --> 0:04:50.880 Big and expansive? Is that? Is that? Uh? Is that 0:04:51.000 --> 0:04:55.520 led Zeppelin? Right? Right? Is that Vivaldi? I mean it's 0:04:55.560 --> 0:04:59.560 you know, most of the time, my job seems to 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:05.240 be se figuring out what they mean by their adjectives. 0:05:05.600 --> 0:05:07.440 I need somebody to sound more brown, I need to 0:05:07.440 --> 0:05:12.800 sound more fuzzy, more more uh intimate? Well again, these 0:05:12.839 --> 0:05:17.680 are these are these are adjectives that that that could 0:05:17.680 --> 0:05:19.240 be applied to a lot of things. So you have 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:21.000 to figure that out first. You have to figure out 0:05:21.040 --> 0:05:24.200 what they mean by what they say. A lot of 0:05:24.240 --> 0:05:27.560 that can be done by listening to their demos, by 0:05:27.600 --> 0:05:30.279 their previous recordings, if they've done that and you start 0:05:30.279 --> 0:05:33.800 the conversation there. But it's I guess, I guess what 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:36.560 I'm coming to, Bob is it's it's it's different every time. 0:05:36.600 --> 0:05:39.320 There's no one size fits all, and I guess that's 0:05:39.360 --> 0:05:42.720 the thing for me musically, that's the that keeps me 0:05:42.839 --> 0:05:46.160 engaged and interested in this whole thing, because, uh, if 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:49.400 it was the same thing every time, I'd get really bored. 0:05:49.800 --> 0:05:52.080 And in saying that I live in Nashville, Tennessee, now 0:05:52.360 --> 0:05:54.960 I'm I'm I'll just say it. I never in a 0:05:55.000 --> 0:05:57.680 million years would have ever thought I would be involved 0:05:57.680 --> 0:06:00.480 in country music. Right, let's go back the other thing 0:06:00.480 --> 0:06:04.000 and then get back to country music. So you meet 0:06:04.040 --> 0:06:08.599 the act, probably the act already wants to work with you. 0:06:09.200 --> 0:06:13.320 How long does it take to have this conversation before 0:06:13.440 --> 0:06:18.040 work on the album begins. It can be ours, it's 0:06:18.120 --> 0:06:22.599 it's there's no rhyme or reason to any of this stuff. 0:06:22.640 --> 0:06:25.240 I mean, if if it wasn't a perfect world for me, 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:30.240 we would meet several times. We would do rehearsals, we 0:06:30.279 --> 0:06:34.719 would do pre production, we would spend time really diving deep, 0:06:34.839 --> 0:06:40.920 getting to know one another, artist myself, doing demos, doing 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:43.719 a lot of that stuff way before we record records. 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:46.360 That's not the nature of the business. The nature of 0:06:46.400 --> 0:06:50.440 the business is when these labels put you together with them, 0:06:50.560 --> 0:06:52.600 they want it, they want it now, and they want 0:06:52.600 --> 0:06:56.640 it they wanted successful immediately. Okay, so now it's a go. 0:06:57.440 --> 0:06:59.760 What's the next step in making a record? Do you 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:01.919 have any rehearsals or you just go straight to the 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:05.320 studio normally. I don't get that. Most of these artists 0:07:05.360 --> 0:07:09.600 are are are starting their touring already, so their time 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:12.520 is limited. The first thing is, you know, I want 0:07:12.520 --> 0:07:14.800 to hear the songs you want to record. One thing 0:07:14.840 --> 0:07:17.920 that I'm I'm not interested in doing is being an 0:07:17.920 --> 0:07:23.360 A and our person. And traditionally in Nashville, the producers 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:26.680 were A and our instruments and and and many of 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:30.160 them were publishers, and so they would come in with 0:07:30.200 --> 0:07:33.160 the songs, here's what we're gonna record. I have zero 0:07:33.240 --> 0:07:34.760 interest in that. As a matter of fact, I think 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:38.800 it's I think there's a lot of I think I 0:07:38.800 --> 0:07:42.880 got into this business because there was there was that 0:07:43.000 --> 0:07:50.760 component that would would would constitute almost almost a uh. 0:07:50.800 --> 0:07:53.360 I don't know how to say it. It's it's it's 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:55.640 it's best if you just help them make their music. 0:07:55.920 --> 0:07:57.760 I don't want to be somebody's publisher. I don't want 0:07:57.760 --> 0:08:02.560 to have uh incentive to from a financial standpoint. I 0:08:02.600 --> 0:08:04.440 just want to help people make music. That's that's what 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:06.360 I like to do, right, And I think a lot 0:08:06.400 --> 0:08:08.840 of artists when I started doing this, we're interested in 0:08:08.880 --> 0:08:11.840 that because they didn't see a producer coming in with 0:08:11.880 --> 0:08:15.440 another interest in having his songs recorded to help his 0:08:15.520 --> 0:08:18.600 publishing company. As you said earlier, they hire you to 0:08:18.720 --> 0:08:22.600 have hit records. When you listen to the demos, do 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:25.600 you only pull a project or do a project if 0:08:25.680 --> 0:08:28.400 you hear a hit? What if you're in the studio 0:08:28.480 --> 0:08:31.280 and there is no hit. I usually get interest interested 0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:34.920 because I hear some element of their music that that 0:08:35.520 --> 0:08:38.480 speaks to me. Most of the people that I work with, 0:08:38.960 --> 0:08:42.840 they've they've come through the songwriting halls here in Nashville 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:45.720 and and they've usually graduated up to the upper tier. 0:08:46.720 --> 0:08:49.840 And uh so they usually come in with really good music. 0:08:50.440 --> 0:08:52.840 A lot of times you'll find out what you think 0:08:52.880 --> 0:08:55.960 as a hit compared to the end of a project, 0:08:56.400 --> 0:09:00.160 after you've realized the music it's not the hit, they're 0:09:00.200 --> 0:09:02.800 they're hidden gems there. So I think that what I 0:09:02.920 --> 0:09:05.160 what I'm saying is that you have to start the process, 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:09.400 you have to start making music. I mean, it's really 0:09:09.400 --> 0:09:11.960 a sad thing if if we think we can cut 0:09:11.960 --> 0:09:16.120 this down to some kind of algorithm. And and that's 0:09:16.120 --> 0:09:18.839 what the business would would love for this to be right. 0:09:19.040 --> 0:09:22.240 We we know exactly what's gonna happen A B C. D. Here. 0:09:22.559 --> 0:09:25.160 You have this artist as things this good, you get 0:09:25.200 --> 0:09:27.560 this writer right with them, then you get somebody like 0:09:27.640 --> 0:09:29.960 me to come in and record the songs. That is 0:09:30.080 --> 0:09:33.880 a recipe for for success. It doesn't always happen that way, 0:09:33.920 --> 0:09:36.920 and usually there are sleepers when you record these records, 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:41.760 songs that emerge in the studio something that nobody would 0:09:41.760 --> 0:09:45.640 have ever thought would would possibly be a contender. That's 0:09:45.679 --> 0:09:48.320 the that's the that's the mystery of all this stuff. 0:09:48.800 --> 0:09:52.199 So there is the agenda of a record label and 0:09:52.200 --> 0:09:54.480 and management, and it's all good. It's you know, how 0:09:54.520 --> 0:09:57.280 else can the business run? But there's the reality of 0:09:57.280 --> 0:09:59.640 the way this goes. And that's the part that I'm 0:09:59.679 --> 0:10:02.079 involved then, and it's it's just you get in there 0:10:02.080 --> 0:10:05.000 and you start making music, and it's you don't know 0:10:05.040 --> 0:10:07.320 how it's gonna go. That's the way. Needless to say, 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:09.480 since you've been doing this, this business has gone through 0:10:09.480 --> 0:10:14.679 a wild transition with first file trading now ultimately streaming. 0:10:15.679 --> 0:10:19.880 This has affected a lot of people's recording process. So 0:10:20.480 --> 0:10:23.720 how has it affected you, if at all, in terms 0:10:23.720 --> 0:10:25.960 of how much money and how much time and where 0:10:25.960 --> 0:10:29.400 you record the records. Luckily, for me, I'm I've been 0:10:29.400 --> 0:10:31.440 in the business long enough to where I can set 0:10:31.480 --> 0:10:36.800 certain terms as far as budgets go, um, the process 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:39.840 of recording, I pretty much do what I've always done. 0:10:40.160 --> 0:10:43.719 The business is being streamlined. You know this. Everybody now 0:10:43.840 --> 0:10:47.599 is a producer, right, everybody with a laptop. I'm a dinosaur, 0:10:47.720 --> 0:10:50.400 I think if you were before categorizing me as far 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:53.920 as the way I make music, I'm not. I usually 0:10:53.960 --> 0:10:56.120 don't write with with artists. As a matter of fact, 0:10:56.120 --> 0:10:58.000 I never write with artists. What am I saying? I 0:10:58.080 --> 0:11:01.400 quit writing when I quit my band. Everybody's a producer 0:11:01.440 --> 0:11:03.800 with a laptop. The demos that come in are are 0:11:04.080 --> 0:11:07.920 staggeringly good, right, So why does why would an artist 0:11:07.960 --> 0:11:10.719 need somebody like me? At this point? I asked that 0:11:10.800 --> 0:11:13.360 question all the time. You didn't ask this question. But 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:17.800 I'll kind of circle back kind of what we're talking about. 0:11:18.480 --> 0:11:21.880 There's something that that Bob and our age group we 0:11:21.920 --> 0:11:26.960 got to experience musically seventies, right, seventies, sixties, seventies, There 0:11:27.080 --> 0:11:32.040 that was a renaissance of music. It preceded machines and 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:36.400 proceeded a culture and the record business. It was still 0:11:36.440 --> 0:11:40.360 the wild, wild West, you know. And and with that 0:11:40.400 --> 0:11:43.080 there was an innocence and there was a fearlessness in 0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:48.440 making music that existed, and I think it really fostered 0:11:48.600 --> 0:11:53.840 some of the great pop music of all time. And uh, 0:11:54.000 --> 0:11:57.520 at this point, I think artists, young kids are speaking personally. 0:11:57.520 --> 0:12:00.400 They they want to feel a piece of that. I'm 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:04.480 abridged to that. I'm not a laptop producer. I still 0:12:04.520 --> 0:12:08.520 deal with live musicians. I think that's not the only 0:12:08.520 --> 0:12:11.800 way to make music. But that's there's there's certainly something 0:12:13.480 --> 0:12:15.920 in sitting in a room with other people. There's there's 0:12:16.120 --> 0:12:19.240 you can you can't replace that exchange of ideas with 0:12:19.240 --> 0:12:23.199 with with sitting in front of the laptop. It's it's 0:12:23.320 --> 0:12:25.760 I'll keep coming back to this this the two words. 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:28.559 There's tension and there's mystery to it. You don't want 0:12:28.559 --> 0:12:31.400 to know what's going to happen next, because it's not 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:34.479 just your mind, it's everybody else's mind. So it's a reaction. 0:12:35.200 --> 0:12:39.120 It's there's something about that that process that is magical 0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:43.880 in making music anyway, so we live in a business. 0:12:43.880 --> 0:12:46.400 Your original question was how how is this all affected 0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:50.280 now with the transition to stream me and whatnot. Basically, 0:12:52.120 --> 0:12:54.880 I thinks streaming is the greatest thing for music because again, 0:12:55.040 --> 0:12:59.160 it's it's pushing the boundaries, is saying that the funnel 0:12:59.200 --> 0:13:02.559 that we go through is not small, it's huge. And 0:13:02.559 --> 0:13:05.480 and as much as radio has been a phenomenal instrument 0:13:05.600 --> 0:13:11.200 in getting music to people, there are gatekeepers that that 0:13:11.240 --> 0:13:14.880 are involved in that process. And and there's too much power. 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:19.600 The democratization of of music through technology, as I think 0:13:19.640 --> 0:13:23.840 it's been a wonderful thing. It's confusing. Um it allows 0:13:23.840 --> 0:13:29.360 in a lot of mediocrity, but it also allows a 0:13:29.440 --> 0:13:34.920 lot of people to have control over what they do. Um. 0:13:35.120 --> 0:13:40.559 Record companies are playing catch up to that, and and 0:13:40.640 --> 0:13:43.120 I think the first round of their decisions are to say, 0:13:43.200 --> 0:13:46.080 let's just get They call it content, which is a 0:13:46.160 --> 0:13:51.080 pretty spite forward and I hate that word. Just it sucks. 0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:55.280 It's not content, it's music, right, they want the there's 0:13:55.280 --> 0:14:00.760 an insatiable appetite for music now product content. That's a 0:14:00.760 --> 0:14:03.720 problem because there's a lot of mediocrity. You can't just 0:14:03.800 --> 0:14:06.679 make great music quickly. Sometimes it happens in a flash. 0:14:07.040 --> 0:14:10.199 Sometimes it happens over a long period of time. I'm 0:14:10.280 --> 0:14:13.400 kind of the moderator with the projects that I do 0:14:13.480 --> 0:14:18.319 on that process. Dinosaur. Yes, but but but we're gonna 0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:21.160 find a chord of that music that that the artist 0:14:21.280 --> 0:14:24.080 feels like that they're saying what they want to say. 0:14:24.480 --> 0:14:26.560 Record company is gonna take it and do what they 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:29.960 gotta do with it. Sometimes it works for them, sometimes 0:14:29.960 --> 0:14:33.160 it doesn't. Sometimes this this new process of just spitting 0:14:33.160 --> 0:14:38.640 out these demos disposable music that works better for them. 0:14:38.680 --> 0:14:40.560 I can't. I can't be the answer for all of 0:14:40.560 --> 0:14:43.200 that stuff. Hopefully that that answers a little bit off 0:14:43.240 --> 0:14:45.920 your question. I'm sitting down. That's a lot though. It's 0:14:45.920 --> 0:14:48.880 all good. But let's go back to the nuts and bolts. 0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:52.200 So you say, yes, you've met the act, you've listened 0:14:52.240 --> 0:14:54.760 to the demos. How much is the budget that you 0:14:54.960 --> 0:14:56.720 propose and how long does it take you to make 0:14:56.760 --> 0:15:00.480 one of these records the budgets that I get. Can 0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:03.720 I talk about some of this stuff to you? I'm 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:07.680 trying to think. I don't think I'm supposed to talk 0:15:07.720 --> 0:15:11.360 about park because every deal is different. How long does 0:15:11.400 --> 0:15:13.680 it take him? Is your budget A hundred thousand, three 0:15:13.720 --> 0:15:16.960 hundred thousand, two hundred thousand. You know what that's That's 0:15:16.960 --> 0:15:19.880 a great question. And this is an honest answer, even 0:15:19.920 --> 0:15:22.520 though I preface it by saying I don't know if 0:15:22.560 --> 0:15:24.800 I should talk about the truth is I don't a 0:15:24.840 --> 0:15:27.920 hundred percent no, because I have a guy that does it, 0:15:28.000 --> 0:15:30.520 and he usually he just he's been with me for 0:15:30.560 --> 0:15:33.960 twenty five years. I know it's I know, roughly to 0:15:34.120 --> 0:15:40.240 track a song in Nashville with you know musicians, your 0:15:40.280 --> 0:15:44.240 union musicians that I use will be somewhere up from 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:49.400 twenty dollars just for the expenses. And I think that's mixed. 0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:54.040 So what ten songs and you're talking about what two 0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:58.480 fifty dollars? Right? Generally speaking? Are you making albums? Sort of? 0:15:58.640 --> 0:16:01.800 Sometimes somebody come in and want one track or a 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:05.600 few tracks. For the most part, gladly I can I 0:16:05.640 --> 0:16:08.080 can say that it's it's mostly album still to this point, 0:16:08.200 --> 0:16:10.800 or what do they call collections now? Right, it's more 0:16:10.840 --> 0:16:13.640 than it's more than eight songs, So it's a body 0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:16.720 of work. Okay, So you have your read songs, how 0:16:16.800 --> 0:16:20.400 much time do you need? Various? It just various. Cam 0:16:20.480 --> 0:16:23.200 Marlow i'm working I'm working with now he's seen he's 0:16:23.200 --> 0:16:27.280 seen live on the tracks, so if comp his vocals, 0:16:28.080 --> 0:16:30.120 if they need to be comped from these live tracks, 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:33.960 that saves me weeks of doing vocal over depths. We've 0:16:34.360 --> 0:16:37.600 determined this record is gonna be really simple. There's not 0:16:37.640 --> 0:16:40.600 gonna be a lot of over depths after the fact, 0:16:40.640 --> 0:16:45.760 so that again, some records take the I'm trying to think. 0:16:45.960 --> 0:16:47.560 I just did a record with it with with an 0:16:47.640 --> 0:16:51.960 artist named Kane Brown, who's a wonderful new hybrid kind 0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:53.440 of artists. I don't know if you know that name. 0:16:54.280 --> 0:16:56.040 We've been working on this record place for a year, 0:16:56.120 --> 0:16:58.160 off and on. He tours all the time, so it's 0:16:58.200 --> 0:17:01.560 not straight work. This record that I'm working on right now, 0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:04.240 I probably have it done in six weeks. So they're 0:17:04.280 --> 0:17:06.800 there there. None of them are the same for me. Well, 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:09.159 let me put it the other way. Look at it 0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:12.639 from your perspective. You have a schedule. How do you 0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:16.440 schedule all this stuff? That's the main dollar question. It 0:17:16.640 --> 0:17:19.480 used to keep me up twenty years ago. It kept 0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:23.480 me up at nights. I discovered ambient right that was 0:17:23.880 --> 0:17:25.560 that was the only answer for me at that time. 0:17:26.840 --> 0:17:29.199 It just does Bob. I don't. I don't, you know, 0:17:30.000 --> 0:17:31.639 And sometimes you have to say to people, you have 0:17:31.640 --> 0:17:33.440 to say, look, it's gonna take me a little bit longer. 0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:36.000 You have to wait. That's the beauty of being a 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:39.680 senior in this business right now. I don't take advantage 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:41.760 of it. I don't. I don't. I'm not heavy with 0:17:41.800 --> 0:17:45.800 that at all. Um and I have a wonderful relationship 0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:48.000 with most of the label heads here. They're all my age, 0:17:48.720 --> 0:17:51.680 and they know that I'm not gonna dick around with them, 0:17:51.720 --> 0:17:54.240 with with their money, with with their schedules. I will 0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:56.480 meet deadlines. I just want to know what the hard 0:17:56.520 --> 0:17:59.480 deadlines are. And I and I usually I mean to 0:17:59.560 --> 0:18:03.000 this day, I'm knock on some way around here. I've 0:18:03.119 --> 0:18:06.959 i've never uh not delivered on time. But as far 0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:10.840 as scheduling, I mean to this day. I don't have 0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:15.959 an assistant. I'm I'm one of the holdouts. It's too 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:18.000 much work to have an assistant. So I do have 0:18:18.040 --> 0:18:20.840 a production assistant who keep pays the bills and does 0:18:20.880 --> 0:18:23.240 all that stuff. But that's it. It's just me. It's 0:18:23.240 --> 0:18:25.359 a mom and pop shop here and I and I 0:18:25.400 --> 0:18:35.760 actually do a lot of records so there's seven days 0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:38.399 in a week, twenty four hours in a day. How 0:18:38.480 --> 0:18:41.000 much you're working less than I did ten years ago. 0:18:41.320 --> 0:18:43.639 But I've been hit a lot of saturdays lately. I 0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:48.960 will say that normally I've been married forty years, so 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:53.200 in music years, that would be right exact. At least. 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:56.479 Sherry and my wife, my my girlfriend since that we 0:18:56.480 --> 0:18:59.359 were fourteen years old. She's not in music business, and 0:18:59.359 --> 0:19:03.560 that's probably why we're still married. But I decided a 0:19:03.560 --> 0:19:06.560 long time ago, well i'll tell you a great little 0:19:06.600 --> 0:19:09.119 a little story about you. Mind me a little anecdote 0:19:09.280 --> 0:19:11.720 about Los Angeles. And we just moved out. I think 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:16.360 it was two two or three. We've been married a year. 0:19:18.240 --> 0:19:19.919 I got out there was lucky enough to get in 0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:22.639 the fast track right off the bat. I was living 0:19:22.720 --> 0:19:24.600 my dream. My The only thing I want to do 0:19:24.640 --> 0:19:28.359 is play guitar. About a year and a half, two 0:19:28.440 --> 0:19:32.320 years in Sherry, I'll never forget. I know where I 0:19:32.359 --> 0:19:34.560 was sitting on it, on which chair, which house we 0:19:34.600 --> 0:19:37.800 lived in. She said, Hey, Dan, I love you, but 0:19:37.840 --> 0:19:41.960 I'm gonna move back to Nashville. She said, this is 0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:44.240 not really me. She said, we see still stay married. 0:19:44.280 --> 0:19:46.840 I love you, but I would see you as much 0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:49.280 as if you came home to Nashville and visited once 0:19:49.280 --> 0:19:53.199 every too much. And and that was a real warning, 0:19:53.320 --> 0:19:57.720 right And so my life has been one of balance. 0:19:57.880 --> 0:20:00.919 And I've raised three kids and um now I have grandkids. 0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:05.000 But I did, I did find out early that that, 0:20:06.680 --> 0:20:08.320 like I used to do twelve hour days, I'll put 0:20:08.359 --> 0:20:11.520 it that way, something suffers that at every point of life, 0:20:11.560 --> 0:20:15.160 if if, if you're, if you're, if you're doubling down 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:16.840 on work, your family is gonna suffer and you've got 0:20:16.920 --> 0:20:20.040 to make that up. So it's it's just a constant balance. 0:20:20.080 --> 0:20:23.159 But right now, say I like to work, if I 0:20:23.440 --> 0:20:26.439 have my way, I like to work between the hours 0:20:26.520 --> 0:20:32.800 of eleven and six, kind of bankers hours for a musician. Now, 0:20:33.520 --> 0:20:37.879 the past is history, But in retrospect, did it require 0:20:38.000 --> 0:20:41.840 that much work twelve hours a day to achieve the 0:20:41.960 --> 0:20:46.479 status you presently have? And we're the sacrifice is worth it, 0:20:46.800 --> 0:20:48.879 no doubt, no doubt. I mean, I mean, you know, 0:20:49.000 --> 0:20:53.879 I mean, I've been fortunate enough to be around what 0:20:53.960 --> 0:20:58.600 I would consider greats at every facet of my recording career. 0:20:59.400 --> 0:21:03.000 And yeah, it does, it does exact some some flesh 0:21:03.080 --> 0:21:05.240 from you and there's no way to get good without 0:21:05.240 --> 0:21:08.919 your ten thousand hours. So was it worth it? Yeah, 0:21:09.000 --> 0:21:10.880 it was worth it. I think there's some other things 0:21:11.800 --> 0:21:14.359 that I might have been able to accomplish had I 0:21:14.440 --> 0:21:17.200 given a little bit more, but that would also wouldn't 0:21:17.200 --> 0:21:19.800 have been worth the cost to me personally. Okay, so 0:21:19.880 --> 0:21:23.400 let's go back to the studio. You mentioned earlier that 0:21:23.480 --> 0:21:28.480 you have your regulars players in Nashville. Do you tend 0:21:28.520 --> 0:21:31.000 to use players on all the records you make or 0:21:31.119 --> 0:21:33.639 is it ever the guys in the band they're the 0:21:33.640 --> 0:21:37.400 ones on the record. It's it's really whatever an artist 0:21:37.480 --> 0:21:39.359 would like. And there's some artists that come in like 0:21:39.400 --> 0:21:43.240 they'll and they'll they'll have a particular musician in their 0:21:43.240 --> 0:21:45.080 band they know can cut it in the studio, and 0:21:45.119 --> 0:21:48.040 they'll say, would you mind using I love that. The 0:21:48.040 --> 0:21:51.240 problem is I've you know, I always maintained that I 0:21:51.320 --> 0:21:54.240 have only so many ideas, so you have to change 0:21:54.320 --> 0:21:56.480 the cast or else it's gonna sound like the same 0:21:56.520 --> 0:21:59.280 record all the time. So how do you find new players? 0:21:59.640 --> 0:22:02.639 Just steen around, just asking around. There's there was a 0:22:02.640 --> 0:22:05.560 new player that I was working with today, a guitar 0:22:05.680 --> 0:22:08.440 players in Nashville he's and he's homegrown. I I can't 0:22:08.440 --> 0:22:11.280 believe that. I've never hardly met anybody in Nashville who's homegrown. 0:22:12.160 --> 0:22:15.760 This guy. He's the age of my oldest daughter. And 0:22:15.840 --> 0:22:19.040 his name is Chris Donnegan. And he's just on a 0:22:19.080 --> 0:22:21.800 tip from an engineer who I've worked with for twenty 0:22:21.800 --> 0:22:25.040 five years. He said, try this guy out. He sounds 0:22:25.080 --> 0:22:28.960 exactly like what you're looking for. A bit irreverent, but 0:22:29.040 --> 0:22:32.199 he's knowledgeable and he and he plays just just on 0:22:32.240 --> 0:22:34.720 the fringes. And I said, okay, great, you know, and 0:22:34.800 --> 0:22:37.720 that's it. He's locked in for life. Now he doesn't 0:22:37.760 --> 0:22:39.399 know that, but he's locked in for life, whether he 0:22:39.440 --> 0:22:42.119 likes it or not. But but truely, I mean truly, 0:22:42.200 --> 0:22:45.359 do you you have to work. One of my heroes 0:22:45.359 --> 0:22:47.000 in life is Mutt Lang and he was the guy 0:22:47.040 --> 0:22:49.359 that talked me into being a producer. Wait wait, he 0:22:49.480 --> 0:22:53.080 taught you one on one or he taught you because 0:22:53.119 --> 0:22:56.200 you listened to the records, both both. I mean, it's 0:22:56.240 --> 0:22:58.200 the greatest honor. When I got my first call to 0:22:58.280 --> 0:23:00.920 play guitar from Mut Lane, that was it. I mean, 0:23:00.920 --> 0:23:03.840 what else A little bit slower? What was that call? 0:23:03.960 --> 0:23:07.600 For the first call? That mutt. Actually, I had moved 0:23:07.600 --> 0:23:10.640 back to Nashville. I was playing in a band Giant 0:23:10.960 --> 0:23:13.719 right by the way. Thank you for those more than 0:23:13.880 --> 0:23:17.120 kind words, all hard felt, all true. Yeah, but that's 0:23:17.160 --> 0:23:18.760 I mean, that was that was sweet. You know, so 0:23:19.400 --> 0:23:21.080 and this you know You're gonna have to tie this 0:23:21.160 --> 0:23:23.800 narrative because I'm jumping all around. I'm like, I got 0:23:23.800 --> 0:23:25.720 it all in my head. Just keep going, Okay, great, 0:23:25.800 --> 0:23:27.439 we had moved back. I thought I was gonna be 0:23:27.440 --> 0:23:31.359 a rock star, moved back to Nashville to raise my kids, 0:23:31.359 --> 0:23:34.760 be closer to extended family. Let's just stop for one second. 0:23:34.800 --> 0:23:38.240 When your wife, Sherry said I'm gonna move back to Nashville. 0:23:38.359 --> 0:23:41.359 What happened then? Did she move back? No? No, she 0:23:41.440 --> 0:23:43.800 didn't she No, It's just I had to I had 0:23:43.840 --> 0:23:46.240 to remember that I was in a relationship and I 0:23:46.560 --> 0:23:49.080 you know, you have to cherish the things that you love. 0:23:49.119 --> 0:23:52.359 I was cherishing music right I was given and I 0:23:52.400 --> 0:23:54.760 just had to make sure that I balanced that and 0:23:54.800 --> 0:23:57.480 I did. And she she it makes her sound like 0:23:57.520 --> 0:23:59.760 she's a heavy she's not. She just she's just honest. 0:24:00.320 --> 0:24:03.320 So and and quite honestly the best music critic too 0:24:03.320 --> 0:24:06.119 that I've had because she's not a musician. She she 0:24:06.160 --> 0:24:09.080 doesn't give rats. Asked about how much hours I put 0:24:09.080 --> 0:24:11.119 into a guitar show. It's like does the song speak 0:24:11.160 --> 0:24:14.720 to her or not? So anyway, Um, we're back in Nashville, 0:24:14.760 --> 0:24:18.160 We're raising kids. I'm I'm gonna be a rock star. 0:24:18.280 --> 0:24:23.120 So I thought this is right before Giant tumbled, and um, 0:24:23.680 --> 0:24:27.480 Mutt Lange wanted to cut a record in Nashville. He's 0:24:27.560 --> 0:24:31.720 loved I found out he loves Nashville. He he was 0:24:31.760 --> 0:24:35.800 cutting a record on his ex wife. Her name is 0:24:35.840 --> 0:24:40.199 Stevie and um, so he hired a bunch of Nashville 0:24:40.320 --> 0:24:42.800 musicians and so it was not a rock record, which 0:24:42.880 --> 0:24:46.000 is bizarre because I was not a country musician. Anyway, 0:24:46.040 --> 0:24:48.159 we got to know each other in our our relationship 0:24:48.200 --> 0:24:54.560 extended far beyond that. And I watched him work in 0:24:54.640 --> 0:24:59.239 various capacities, and and that guy could bring water from 0:24:59.280 --> 0:25:05.600 a stone. He had no fear. He would lead you 0:25:05.840 --> 0:25:11.360 to the musical Promised Land, whether you well, no, you'd 0:25:11.400 --> 0:25:16.480 always like it. It was all on him. And yet 0:25:16.520 --> 0:25:19.639 he had such a profound respect and a desire to 0:25:19.720 --> 0:25:23.080 hear the ideas of all the people you worked with. 0:25:23.600 --> 0:25:25.920 And it really had an effect on me. And I've 0:25:25.920 --> 0:25:28.560 worked with some phenomenal producers. I mean, you know, I mean, 0:25:31.760 --> 0:25:33.760 there's no way you can call one the greatest. There's 0:25:33.800 --> 0:25:36.159 no greatest. But I would say he's one of the 0:25:36.160 --> 0:25:39.000 most profound musicians I've ever worked with. We could argue 0:25:39.000 --> 0:25:41.320 whether people are in his league, but he's at the top. 0:25:41.600 --> 0:25:44.600 I mean, it just I don't have an I don't 0:25:44.640 --> 0:25:47.680 have enough vocabulary to say what I think about mud 0:25:47.760 --> 0:25:50.800 life and as a person too. It's just he's the 0:25:50.880 --> 0:25:55.119 quintessential music maker. That's just it. So I'm looking at 0:25:55.119 --> 0:25:57.639 this guy and and and also just honored to be 0:25:58.560 --> 0:26:01.359 part of making music with him. And he was the 0:26:01.359 --> 0:26:04.399 one who said, you're a producer at hard Dan, you 0:26:04.440 --> 0:26:08.480 should you should drop the guitar playing and produce records. 0:26:08.800 --> 0:26:10.960 Well you didn't want to hear that. But what what 0:26:11.040 --> 0:26:15.040 did he pick up on? I'm assuming because I haven't 0:26:15.040 --> 0:26:19.600 really asked him. But but well, I'm an arranger at heart, 0:26:20.080 --> 0:26:24.080 an arranger, so so the it's it's like I've always 0:26:24.119 --> 0:26:27.960 liked making records to to to. If you're a musician, 0:26:28.000 --> 0:26:30.919 you're a subcontractor, right You're you're hired to frame the 0:26:30.960 --> 0:26:34.080 house you're a drywall guy, you're a plumber or whatever. 0:26:34.720 --> 0:26:37.359 There's a certain artistic bent to each one of those 0:26:37.480 --> 0:26:42.119 those disciplines, shall we say. And the record producer is 0:26:42.160 --> 0:26:45.840 just the general contractor. He's he may be a he 0:26:45.920 --> 0:26:48.000 may be a woodsmith himself, you know, I mean, or 0:26:48.040 --> 0:26:50.440 a plumber, but but he it's his job to pull 0:26:50.480 --> 0:26:52.720 the whole thing together and and it's his job to 0:26:52.720 --> 0:26:54.760 make sure the house is built. That's what a record 0:26:54.760 --> 0:26:59.160 producer does. And he just he he noticed some things 0:26:59.200 --> 0:27:01.760 about the way that I related to the way he produced, 0:27:02.400 --> 0:27:05.359 and he probably thought I'm I'm I'm guessing here, I'm projecting. 0:27:05.600 --> 0:27:08.239 They thought I would be a natural doing that, and 0:27:08.280 --> 0:27:11.800 he was the one. Um he didn't get me my 0:27:11.880 --> 0:27:16.040 first gig, but I was actually producing um a Mega 0:27:16.080 --> 0:27:19.679 Death record here in Nashville in the early nineties. It 0:27:19.760 --> 0:27:23.440 was my my manager of Giant, Bud Prager, who got 0:27:23.440 --> 0:27:25.320 me that that gig. He thought I'd be good to 0:27:25.320 --> 0:27:29.840 work with Dave Mustain at the same time. Mutt was 0:27:29.880 --> 0:27:32.800 producing Shania Twain at that time, and I was playing 0:27:32.800 --> 0:27:38.679 on those records, and um, they were hanging out with 0:27:38.720 --> 0:27:41.760 Faith Hill. It was a huge star at that time 0:27:41.800 --> 0:27:45.760 in faith. It was. It was just kind of like 0:27:45.760 --> 0:27:48.639 a drama. You know. Her producer was her fiance and 0:27:48.680 --> 0:27:53.760 they split up, so she just didn't want to continue that, 0:27:53.840 --> 0:27:56.520 you know, and I understand that. And and she was 0:27:56.560 --> 0:28:00.200 looking for a producer, and Mutton and I were with her, 0:28:00.280 --> 0:28:03.280 and they said, well, why don't you try Dan, and 0:28:03.320 --> 0:28:05.720 she she had never thought of that. I was playing 0:28:05.720 --> 0:28:07.840 on her records because I was living in Nashville this time, 0:28:07.840 --> 0:28:10.360 and I, you know, I was supplementing my income, my 0:28:10.720 --> 0:28:15.119 rock income, with playing sessions again. And so that was 0:28:15.160 --> 0:28:16.439 the first thing. And you know, I mean, if if 0:28:16.520 --> 0:28:20.280 Mutt Lange suggests you, somebody's gonna listen at that point, 0:28:21.240 --> 0:28:24.760 and there you go. And that was the beginning of 0:28:24.760 --> 0:28:28.240 of kind of my production in Nashville on country music. 0:28:28.600 --> 0:28:31.720 And the irony is Mutt Lange, you know, his greatest 0:28:31.800 --> 0:28:33.920 rock producer, you know, one of the greatest whatever you 0:28:33.960 --> 0:28:37.399 want to call him. He was such a student of 0:28:37.520 --> 0:28:40.680 Nashville music, of country music. As a matter of fact, 0:28:41.200 --> 0:28:43.560 when he when he we we were in England working 0:28:43.600 --> 0:28:46.240 on a record, and he he asked me what I 0:28:46.320 --> 0:28:49.840 knew about an artist named Shania Twin And I said, 0:28:50.000 --> 0:28:51.440 I don't know that much. I mean, I've heard some 0:28:51.520 --> 0:28:54.560 music or whatever. She's she's gorgeous or whatever. That's about 0:28:54.920 --> 0:28:56.480 the extent of what I knew about. I saw her 0:28:56.560 --> 0:29:01.640 on videos and he said, well, I fancy her, and uh, 0:29:01.920 --> 0:29:04.040 I said, that's great. So I was working on some 0:29:04.240 --> 0:29:06.640 record with him in England at this time and he said, 0:29:07.000 --> 0:29:08.640 he said, but you're not going to play on it. 0:29:09.840 --> 0:29:13.000 And I said what? And he said, you don't know 0:29:13.080 --> 0:29:17.920 anything about country music, which is so true. I didn't 0:29:18.840 --> 0:29:21.120 even though I was living it. Grew up here in Nashville, 0:29:21.200 --> 0:29:22.840 and I was living back in Nashville, I didn't know 0:29:22.840 --> 0:29:29.040 a damn thing about country music. Funny thing was, I 0:29:29.080 --> 0:29:31.040 got a call one day and it was, I think 0:29:31.080 --> 0:29:33.520 the second day that he was tracking Shanai and Nashville 0:29:33.600 --> 0:29:35.760 their first record. He he said, and I won't even 0:29:35.760 --> 0:29:40.040 attempt a South African accent. But then you fancy coming 0:29:40.080 --> 0:29:42.560 down and having a play. He's what he said, having 0:29:42.560 --> 0:29:45.280 a play. And I said, I said, I thought you 0:29:45.320 --> 0:29:48.280 said I didn't know how to play country music. He said, yeah, well, 0:29:48.320 --> 0:29:52.400 I just want your wrist. Is that great? I just 0:29:52.440 --> 0:29:57.000 want your wrist? So yeah, okay, But you know, if 0:29:57.040 --> 0:29:59.720 we talk about the old guy because everything is different now. 0:30:00.200 --> 0:30:03.000 There were producers that were you know, in the sixties, 0:30:03.040 --> 0:30:07.400 they work for the label. Then everybody went independent. The 0:30:07.480 --> 0:30:11.880 producers were mainly people leaving Nashville, which is a subculture 0:30:11.960 --> 0:30:15.880 unto itself. But if we're talking about rock, the producers 0:30:16.280 --> 0:30:18.800 were sort of they and our guys, and they would 0:30:18.840 --> 0:30:22.280 also work with the music. Then we went to an 0:30:22.360 --> 0:30:26.480 engineer producer. When you're an engineer, you learn that your 0:30:26.520 --> 0:30:30.320 subsidiary and you don't make waves. And therefore when they 0:30:30.360 --> 0:30:34.560 make records, it's harder for them to speak up with 0:30:34.600 --> 0:30:38.840 their ideas. And what I'm leading to Ism is a 0:30:39.040 --> 0:30:45.240 unique guy because in South Africa he started doing satellite records. 0:30:45.280 --> 0:30:48.200 You know, before that they came to South Africa, they 0:30:48.200 --> 0:30:50.240 would record them, they'd have them for a couple of 0:30:50.280 --> 0:30:53.240 weeks and have the hit in South Africa. So this 0:30:53.360 --> 0:30:57.719 is a guy who can do everything. He can write, 0:30:57.920 --> 0:31:01.920 he can sing, he can okay, and there are not 0:31:02.040 --> 0:31:05.000 many people who can do that. So how did those 0:31:05.040 --> 0:31:08.320 elements come across in the studio? You know, he writes 0:31:08.400 --> 0:31:12.120 it's almost like, um, it's like he writes an acoustic guitar. 0:31:12.440 --> 0:31:14.720 You know, it's like you know, he's like He's a hippie, 0:31:15.000 --> 0:31:17.800 is what he is. He's just he's a beautiful hippie. 0:31:19.000 --> 0:31:22.800 And um music has to work from an arrangement standpoint 0:31:22.920 --> 0:31:26.400 from melody. If he and he he usually has to 0:31:26.400 --> 0:31:30.160 translate on an acoustic guitar for him, whatever his influences were, 0:31:31.640 --> 0:31:34.240 and he has he usually has an idea when he 0:31:34.280 --> 0:31:36.440 comes in. I mean it's not always fleshed out, you know, 0:31:36.560 --> 0:31:38.280 a full demo, but he has an idea. You know, 0:31:38.280 --> 0:31:40.760 he's a he's an arranger. Again, I come back to 0:31:40.880 --> 0:31:43.480 I think that's really what what great records are made of. 0:31:43.520 --> 0:31:45.720 Because when you go back, and I'll just deviate for 0:31:45.760 --> 0:31:48.040 one second, you go back and listen to fourties and fifties. 0:31:48.040 --> 0:31:50.960 You just listening to those records. Quincy was making any 0:31:50.960 --> 0:31:53.680 big band record, right, I mean they were. They were 0:31:53.680 --> 0:31:56.120 doing these records with you know, two or three mics. 0:31:56.160 --> 0:31:59.400 That was it. And it's all the arrangement. It's all 0:31:59.480 --> 0:32:03.440 relations and ship oriented. That's the way Mutt makes records. 0:32:04.440 --> 0:32:08.600 It's arrangement. It's it's melodies, rhythms, the way sounds are 0:32:08.680 --> 0:32:12.600 all orchestrated and arranged, they fall together. It's not just 0:32:12.640 --> 0:32:14.840 a blob of music and then you you find a 0:32:14.840 --> 0:32:17.120 way to do and I'm using my hands here. Great 0:32:17.120 --> 0:32:19.120 for your for your listeners, so they can't see a thing. 0:32:19.120 --> 0:32:22.800 But but it's it's not about moving faders up and down. 0:32:23.440 --> 0:32:28.600 If a piece of music doesn't doesn't sit logically, like 0:32:28.720 --> 0:32:30.720 if you put all your faders flat on the board, 0:32:30.760 --> 0:32:33.200 if it doesn't sound great that way, chances are you 0:32:33.200 --> 0:32:36.160 don't have a great record. That that's what That's the 0:32:36.200 --> 0:32:39.400 crux of Mutt lying, as far as I'm concerned, everything 0:32:39.760 --> 0:32:42.600 when when we down to the point of okay, once 0:32:42.640 --> 0:32:44.880 he's got a drum track and a bass track, right, 0:32:46.080 --> 0:32:50.280 that's got a dynamically musically arrangement wise flow with a song. 0:32:50.600 --> 0:32:52.800 You're pointing something as simple as an eighth note part 0:32:52.920 --> 0:32:56.520 ching ching ching ching ching ching ching, Okay, a lot 0:32:56.560 --> 0:32:59.360 of producers, that's over in five seconds because it's such 0:32:59.400 --> 0:33:03.480 a obligatory part. Dan Dan Dan, dank dank. I mean, 0:33:03.520 --> 0:33:06.680 come on, what is that with Mutt? That's everything. It's 0:33:06.800 --> 0:33:11.040 slow motion. Every note has to relate to that kick, 0:33:11.280 --> 0:33:13.800 snare and high hat in a certain way that makes 0:33:13.880 --> 0:33:17.920 every one of these notes sound large into the best 0:33:17.960 --> 0:33:21.040 that it can sound. It's not slop. It's arrangement within 0:33:21.080 --> 0:33:24.440 an eighth note part. And that doesn't mean that it's 0:33:24.440 --> 0:33:26.040 like if you were to put it on a computer 0:33:26.120 --> 0:33:28.720 screen and on a grid, that it would line up exactly. 0:33:28.760 --> 0:33:31.000 That's not what he's looking for. He's looking for the 0:33:31.080 --> 0:33:33.840 foe right behind each one of those, so that the 0:33:33.960 --> 0:33:37.840 duration of each note makes the drums sound bigger and 0:33:37.880 --> 0:33:41.080 more rich, richer than than they than they sound. So 0:33:41.160 --> 0:33:43.880 if you if you start there and then zoom out 0:33:44.000 --> 0:33:47.800 everything that he does, every note that everybody sings has 0:33:47.920 --> 0:33:50.680 to have that relationship to the next thing. And that's 0:33:50.680 --> 0:33:53.160 why his records sounded so damn good. Does that make 0:33:53.200 --> 0:33:56.560 sense at all? Is that absolutely? Absolutely? But trying to 0:33:56.640 --> 0:33:58.760 dig in a little deeper, you were saying, when you 0:33:58.800 --> 0:34:01.480 make records, you're not in a and our guy to 0:34:01.640 --> 0:34:04.240 what degree since mud has those skills, you may not 0:34:04.320 --> 0:34:06.600 have worked in the studio with him with this happened 0:34:06.920 --> 0:34:09.400 where he said, no, we're gonna rework the song, or 0:34:09.400 --> 0:34:12.319 we're gonna rewrite the song. No, no, no, Then then 0:34:12.360 --> 0:34:17.040 I I didn't make that clear. I've been around you know, 0:34:17.440 --> 0:34:20.120 popular hit music, so so everything is an a and 0:34:20.160 --> 0:34:24.960 our involvement. I don't like to go and and like 0:34:25.040 --> 0:34:27.919 for a lot of Nashville artists, if they don't write 0:34:27.960 --> 0:34:30.319 their own songs, you would go to publishers and and 0:34:30.400 --> 0:34:33.600 listen to songs I would rather an artist. I I 0:34:33.640 --> 0:34:35.360 am lucky because I get to work with artists that 0:34:35.440 --> 0:34:38.160 usually write throwing music these days. As a matter of fact, 0:34:38.280 --> 0:34:41.840 last I said, in the last fifteen years, almost almost 0:34:41.840 --> 0:34:45.880 every artist that I work with either writes it completely 0:34:45.880 --> 0:34:49.120 themselves or they co write. You know, and and so 0:34:50.600 --> 0:34:53.799 you tell me what you want to record, you let 0:34:53.880 --> 0:34:56.280 you have a conversation with the label about what songs 0:34:56.400 --> 0:34:58.719 they think are gonna be hits. Right then I'm going 0:34:58.760 --> 0:35:01.480 to accentuate that I'm not interested in that part of 0:35:01.480 --> 0:35:05.520 the process. Now, once it comes into my hands, then 0:35:05.560 --> 0:35:08.680 I'm then I'm on hands on for all of what 0:35:08.719 --> 0:35:10.560 you would call A and R. At that point, we're 0:35:10.600 --> 0:35:14.440 trying to make these songs the most impactful they can 0:35:14.480 --> 0:35:17.759 possibly beat. I sound like kids. I just hate that 0:35:17.920 --> 0:35:20.840 language about talking about hits. But you want something to 0:35:20.880 --> 0:35:24.160 be impactful, so that if if from that in our perspective, 0:35:24.239 --> 0:35:27.520 I'm I'm I'm a involved on the record, and we 0:35:27.520 --> 0:35:31.719 we we rework sections, add sections. I mean, if we 0:35:31.760 --> 0:35:33.920 have to write it there on the spot. It's fine. 0:35:34.000 --> 0:35:37.759 I'm just I'm just not interested in in doing a 0:35:37.880 --> 0:35:41.640 label and our's job as far as starting from scratch 0:35:42.120 --> 0:35:44.520 from here's eighty tunes and let's cull this down to 0:35:44.600 --> 0:35:49.600 ten if that makes sense. Okay, you're in the studio 0:35:50.400 --> 0:35:54.000 and you say, okay, this song needs a bridge or 0:35:54.080 --> 0:35:58.160 we're gonna start with the chorus? Are the acts ever resentful? 0:35:59.320 --> 0:36:03.040 And frequently you have more success than the act. So 0:36:03.120 --> 0:36:05.600 what's the vibe in the studio. It's all in how 0:36:05.640 --> 0:36:08.959 you explain it. I mean, it's it's relationship, right, it's 0:36:10.160 --> 0:36:13.040 and and that's predicated on respect. I mean, I think 0:36:13.080 --> 0:36:14.960 you you have to earn that, you don't demand it, 0:36:15.000 --> 0:36:17.719 you know, like you know, as a matter of fact, 0:36:17.680 --> 0:36:20.280 I quit. I took down all the in my studio 0:36:20.360 --> 0:36:25.440 at the house, I took down all the plaques. Number one. 0:36:25.440 --> 0:36:31.200 It started reminded me how old I was. Right, It's 0:36:31.800 --> 0:36:35.840 it's like, yeah, that was yesterday, right, And so the 0:36:35.880 --> 0:36:39.759 more you think about that, Okay, it was yesterday. And 0:36:39.920 --> 0:36:43.560 I don't want some new artists or that matter, old 0:36:43.640 --> 0:36:47.279 artists to walk into my studio and see this is 0:36:49.120 --> 0:36:52.920 who I think I am, or or you know who 0:36:53.000 --> 0:36:56.560 who they relate to needs to be me at that moment, 0:36:56.640 --> 0:36:59.440 and I have to earn their trust and their respect. 0:37:00.239 --> 0:37:04.040 And so most of the time, at least my experience, 0:37:04.960 --> 0:37:08.879 these artists will give me. They'll be deferential enough. Some 0:37:08.920 --> 0:37:11.080 of them, I have to tell them to quit calling 0:37:11.120 --> 0:37:15.799 me sir, which drives me batshit crazy, But um, it's 0:37:15.800 --> 0:37:19.200 a trust thing. It's like, I'm not afraid, I'm I'm 0:37:19.239 --> 0:37:22.080 I've been around the block enough. I'll tell people right 0:37:22.080 --> 0:37:26.120 off the bat. Look, you're gonna see you're gonna see 0:37:26.280 --> 0:37:29.400 some of the limits of my creativity here. You're gonna 0:37:29.840 --> 0:37:31.799 there's gonna be some things I say that are just 0:37:32.000 --> 0:37:34.640 absolutely off mark, and I'm gonna I'm gonna fall on 0:37:34.680 --> 0:37:38.919 my face. If you can grant me that, I'm gonna 0:37:38.920 --> 0:37:42.120 grant you the same thing. Because part of finding this 0:37:42.120 --> 0:37:44.799 this thing we're looking for, whatever exists out there that 0:37:44.840 --> 0:37:48.760 we're reaching for, doesn't come with It doesn't always just happen, 0:37:49.160 --> 0:37:52.040 and we can't let our egos dictate. You know, it's 0:37:52.040 --> 0:37:55.240 not about being cool, it's about being effective and finding 0:37:55.280 --> 0:38:00.160 that thing. And so you know anything you say, you're 0:38:00.160 --> 0:38:02.880 the boss number one, and you know this artist that 0:38:02.920 --> 0:38:05.479 I was working for today. What he's twenty four years old, 0:38:06.960 --> 0:38:09.600 He's he's ultimately the boss. It's it's his record, is 0:38:09.680 --> 0:38:11.759 his face. It's gonna go on this thing. I'm gonna 0:38:11.760 --> 0:38:14.560 go on and do other records past this point. So 0:38:14.640 --> 0:38:17.759 I gotta listen very intently to what he's saying. And 0:38:17.800 --> 0:38:20.440 if I hear him him him say an idea that 0:38:20.480 --> 0:38:22.680 I don't think is gonna work, I have to discipline 0:38:22.680 --> 0:38:25.839 myself to not just say no, no, that won't work. 0:38:26.520 --> 0:38:29.200 I've seen that happen that here. Here's here's another good 0:38:29.200 --> 0:38:32.840 thing about being a studio player for for decades. I 0:38:32.920 --> 0:38:37.160 got to see great producers and I got to see 0:38:37.239 --> 0:38:42.480 really bad producers. It's like classroom. You know what doesn't work. 0:38:43.040 --> 0:38:46.960 The one thing that works is respect. You know, and 0:38:46.960 --> 0:38:49.279 and and and when you give it, you usually get it. 0:38:50.000 --> 0:38:54.160 Today I tried a couple of ideas that absolutely just suck. 0:38:54.280 --> 0:38:57.400 There's no other way to do it. It's okay. We 0:38:57.520 --> 0:38:59.440 ended up finding it by the end of the session. 0:38:59.560 --> 0:39:03.200 Right on. The track came out fantastically, But it became 0:39:03.280 --> 0:39:05.880 It became that way because the artist was willing to 0:39:05.920 --> 0:39:10.840 trust me to go down a few rabbit holes. I 0:39:10.920 --> 0:39:14.319 thought one thing is gonna work. What absolutely ended up 0:39:14.320 --> 0:39:17.080 working was something that none of us thought was gonna work. 0:39:17.080 --> 0:39:19.800 But it would never have happened had we not tried 0:39:19.840 --> 0:39:23.120 some of these stupid ideas that I had. So that's it. 0:39:23.400 --> 0:39:31.960 And and circling back to mutt uh Mut, I noticed 0:39:32.160 --> 0:39:35.920 never panicked when you hit a dead end in the studio, 0:39:36.840 --> 0:39:38.960 um and I and I and I experienced it a 0:39:39.040 --> 0:39:41.319 lot of times as a musician. You know that that 0:39:41.480 --> 0:39:45.480 horrible feeling like this, this is not happening, and people 0:39:45.480 --> 0:39:47.600 are starting to look around, and and you know, it's 0:39:47.640 --> 0:39:50.480 like what do you do now? It's it's not happening. 0:39:51.080 --> 0:39:53.440 And I've been in a couple of situations with more 0:39:53.480 --> 0:39:56.840 than a couple of situations with producers who you know, 0:39:56.880 --> 0:39:59.719 it's exposes them if they don't have an idea, you know, 0:39:59.760 --> 0:40:01.520 what do gonna do? Well, the next thing is to 0:40:01.520 --> 0:40:04.960 blame somebody, blame a player. This sucking thing, doesn't you know, 0:40:04.960 --> 0:40:09.640 it's like, come on, do something. Mutt Lang never went 0:40:09.680 --> 0:40:12.120 to that place. It was just we're gonna get there, 0:40:12.320 --> 0:40:15.800 hang hang with me. Let's just you know, talk about 0:40:15.800 --> 0:40:18.440 a bar. And so here I enter, I enter my 0:40:18.520 --> 0:40:22.120 production world with you know, the monkey of all monkeys 0:40:22.200 --> 0:40:24.680 on my shoulder. It's like I've worked with Mudd Lang 0:40:25.040 --> 0:40:28.480 and I know it great is I'm not anywhere close 0:40:28.520 --> 0:40:32.160 to that, But you see what I'm saying. I mean, 0:40:32.160 --> 0:40:35.279 it's like, absolutely you get to that point, you go 0:40:35.640 --> 0:40:38.600 anything that I do, number one, I'll never reach that level. 0:40:38.800 --> 0:40:42.320 But but that's how that's that's the way to conduct 0:40:42.400 --> 0:40:46.359 yourself making music. And at least you have to have 0:40:46.560 --> 0:40:49.760 that kind of credibility once you see it, an experience 0:40:49.760 --> 0:40:51.799 that that you can never go back. So when you 0:40:51.880 --> 0:40:54.759 hit a dead end, what did Mutt do or what 0:40:54.800 --> 0:40:59.120 did you learn from what to do? Take time? Step away, Yes, 0:40:59.239 --> 0:41:04.080 like just beating a thing into the ground is pointless. 0:41:04.239 --> 0:41:07.719 Step back, get a different perspective, Go have a meal, 0:41:07.920 --> 0:41:10.799 Go have a cup of coffee or whatever. Step back, 0:41:11.120 --> 0:41:15.200 look at the painting from another angle, Turn it again, 0:41:15.360 --> 0:41:18.279 keep looking at it. All of a sudden. If I mean, 0:41:18.320 --> 0:41:21.560 this is not rocket science, right, I mean we're not 0:41:21.880 --> 0:41:26.439 We're not this is not Bach. We're doing pop music here. 0:41:27.560 --> 0:41:30.040 There's a there's a limited scope. And if if you 0:41:30.400 --> 0:41:34.399 can find that, if you just mean number one, if 0:41:34.400 --> 0:41:37.399 you're around people that are proficient, I hire a really 0:41:37.400 --> 0:41:41.040 good musicians, musicians. Most of my things are way better 0:41:41.040 --> 0:41:44.560 than myself. Just give that a minute. Something's gonna come 0:41:44.640 --> 0:41:48.399 up and present itself. And like I said a minute ago, 0:41:48.560 --> 0:41:50.520 it may not be the exact answer, it may not 0:41:50.560 --> 0:41:53.000 be the exact route, but it may be something that 0:41:53.040 --> 0:41:56.359 that that takes you into that that area that you'll 0:41:56.400 --> 0:41:59.279 you'll you'll see what the final answers and the solution is. 0:42:00.200 --> 0:42:09.440 Patience is the main thing. We were a couple of 0:42:09.440 --> 0:42:14.160 your bad ideas. Today I think back, I can't remember it. 0:42:14.400 --> 0:42:18.600 Luckily I can forget all that stuff. There was a 0:42:18.600 --> 0:42:21.680 after the first course. There was I was well on 0:42:21.840 --> 0:42:25.000 to this idea that I hate making just music that's 0:42:25.040 --> 0:42:27.440 predicated for the radio. I was on a rant about that. 0:42:27.480 --> 0:42:29.880 You know, it's like what am I saying here? Radio 0:42:29.920 --> 0:42:33.160 has fed in my family all these years, but um, 0:42:33.239 --> 0:42:34.799 we need to double that up. We need to take 0:42:34.840 --> 0:42:36.480 time with this thing. And we we ran in and 0:42:36.520 --> 0:42:39.600 the artists basically the end of the song we didn't undertake. 0:42:39.640 --> 0:42:41.640 He said, I just think that sounds way too long, 0:42:41.680 --> 0:42:44.440 and I said, yeah, you're you're, you're absolutely right, but well, 0:42:44.480 --> 0:42:48.040 you know, just that the really bad ideas have been 0:42:48.320 --> 0:42:51.280 reserved for modulations. I grew up like in Barry Manilow, 0:42:51.320 --> 0:42:54.040 so I was like all that that dramatic stuff. Now, 0:42:54.120 --> 0:42:55.719 if you could talk about the eighties when there was 0:42:55.800 --> 0:42:58.920 unlimited money, they would be in the big studio. They 0:42:59.080 --> 0:43:02.040 get a drums down, they build it, they cut the basics. 0:43:02.040 --> 0:43:05.120 How do you do it? Hire great engineers. I hate 0:43:05.120 --> 0:43:08.760 waiting and you know that great drum sound. Here, here's 0:43:08.800 --> 0:43:12.200 here's my take on it. Like there is no the best. 0:43:12.480 --> 0:43:17.120 I'll just say that, right, it's all relative to the 0:43:17.160 --> 0:43:21.640 setting that it's in, right you. I remember listening to 0:43:21.680 --> 0:43:24.640 a police record. Those sounds were great because they were 0:43:24.640 --> 0:43:28.240 predicated on the band itself. He listened to van Halen. 0:43:28.320 --> 0:43:32.520 Totally different thing. It's predicated on van Halen. Oh here, okay, 0:43:32.800 --> 0:43:37.120 great example here. I remember playing on a on a 0:43:37.239 --> 0:43:41.600 Pattie smythe record in the eighties, and the ron Nevison 0:43:41.719 --> 0:43:47.120 was the producer, talk about a history and a list 0:43:47.120 --> 0:43:50.680 of credits. The other guitar player was this little known 0:43:50.680 --> 0:43:56.359 guy named Eddie van Halen. Right yeah, And and when 0:43:56.800 --> 0:43:58.799 when he mentioned that Eddie van Hamlen was playing on 0:43:58.840 --> 0:44:03.320 some tracks, I almost I almost just soiled my nappies. 0:44:03.400 --> 0:44:08.359 Basically I got to the studio and the only thing 0:44:08.360 --> 0:44:10.520 I cared about was hearing what Eddie van Halen did, 0:44:10.520 --> 0:44:15.000 because I was such a massive fan. Right, and Ron 0:44:15.080 --> 0:44:16.920 pull up the tracks and he was playing me some stuff, 0:44:17.600 --> 0:44:22.960 and you could tell that it was Eddie. But it 0:44:23.000 --> 0:44:25.680 was interesting because he didn't turn the guitar up like 0:44:25.800 --> 0:44:28.719 anywhere close to the volume that he that that it 0:44:28.760 --> 0:44:31.040 would have been turned up in a in a power trio, 0:44:31.200 --> 0:44:35.440 right van Halen. It was. It was Eddie's guitar, drums 0:44:35.520 --> 0:44:37.680 and then bass, so the bottom end was even it 0:44:37.760 --> 0:44:41.040 was even subservient to his guitar sound. Well, in this 0:44:41.320 --> 0:44:45.240 it was big drums, big loud bass, and then Eddie's 0:44:45.239 --> 0:44:48.319 guitar in there. So it was Eddie because you know, 0:44:48.480 --> 0:44:52.200 if you if you worshiped him slash studied him like 0:44:52.239 --> 0:44:54.080 I did, you knew it was him. But it was 0:44:54.680 --> 0:44:58.480 not the same experience. It was the same sound when 0:44:58.480 --> 0:45:04.120 he is solated. It was there's Eddie van Halen contextually, right, 0:45:04.400 --> 0:45:06.920 it was. It was less in volume and in the 0:45:07.040 --> 0:45:11.759 elements that were around it. We're not the same, so 0:45:11.800 --> 0:45:14.439 it was a different Eddie van Halen. So that what 0:45:14.440 --> 0:45:18.160 we what everybody calls the brown sound related differently to 0:45:18.239 --> 0:45:22.319 that setting. Right That's that's the world of production right there. 0:45:22.400 --> 0:45:27.120 That's that's everything. It's everything is related. It's like what 0:45:27.239 --> 0:45:30.000 I was talking about a minute ago in arrangement. It's 0:45:30.040 --> 0:45:34.360 the way that it relates to the next thing. So 0:45:34.400 --> 0:45:37.080 if you set your bottom end, your drums, your base 0:45:37.160 --> 0:45:40.200 a certain way, then the guitar sounds to really poke 0:45:40.320 --> 0:45:43.600 through and be effective have to cut through from a 0:45:43.600 --> 0:45:49.160 different standpoint. Eddie van Halen's guitar sound was this massive beast. 0:45:49.280 --> 0:45:51.840 It was a it was a whale of a sound 0:45:53.440 --> 0:45:56.399 with all this bottom end and and this girth that 0:45:57.440 --> 0:46:00.920 didn't relate the same way in the setting that Ron 0:46:01.000 --> 0:46:04.120 had had had queued up for for this. Patty smythe 0:46:04.120 --> 0:46:09.720 record Mutt Lange, by the same token, would take little 0:46:09.760 --> 0:46:12.880 guitar sounds that, in the context of a record like 0:46:12.920 --> 0:46:16.120 that would sound massive, but if you sold them, they 0:46:16.120 --> 0:46:19.720 were these much more. They weren't miniature, but they didn't 0:46:19.760 --> 0:46:24.400 have the girth of Annettie van Halen sound. So when 0:46:24.400 --> 0:46:25.960 you say how do I do records, I get a 0:46:26.000 --> 0:46:29.280 great engineer. I try to be specific about the direction 0:46:29.320 --> 0:46:32.360 of the sound that we're going. And because I'm a 0:46:32.360 --> 0:46:35.760 guitar player, and I make a lot of guitar sounding records. 0:46:36.640 --> 0:46:39.719 I can dominate that conversation. I hire a lot of 0:46:39.719 --> 0:46:43.520 guitar players that it's you know they we we have 0:46:43.560 --> 0:46:47.360 a camarader and we can speak. We speak guitar talk fluently. 0:46:47.640 --> 0:46:50.080 Do you work with the same engineer or do you 0:46:50.080 --> 0:46:53.040 want to mix it up or what's your philosophy there? 0:46:53.200 --> 0:46:54.960 I like to mix it. I have to mix everything 0:46:55.040 --> 0:46:58.000 up because again, if I because of the amount of 0:46:58.080 --> 0:47:00.600 records that I do, it would it would be boring 0:47:00.719 --> 0:47:03.680 very very soon. I have a I would say that 0:47:03.680 --> 0:47:05.560 I have four or five engineers that I like to 0:47:05.600 --> 0:47:08.840 track records. I'm a little more limited on the on 0:47:08.880 --> 0:47:12.200 the mixing. I I've gone back to UH an engineer 0:47:12.239 --> 0:47:14.160 named Justin ee Bank. I don't know if you know 0:47:14.440 --> 0:47:17.560 credits from Nashville, but if you look at them, Bob, 0:47:18.640 --> 0:47:21.840 it's it's staggering. He's a Chicagoan that came through the 0:47:21.880 --> 0:47:25.399 whole jingle thing and moved to Nashville. I met him 0:47:25.400 --> 0:47:28.920 when I did my first Keith Urban record and we 0:47:28.960 --> 0:47:31.360 haven't been a part since. I do have other mixing 0:47:31.360 --> 0:47:34.480 engineers who are great and not but Justin and I 0:47:34.600 --> 0:47:37.719 seem to really have a kind of just a language 0:47:37.800 --> 0:47:42.920 and and he's he's a musician, and uh, we just 0:47:42.960 --> 0:47:45.720 make records a different way. Same thing on on the 0:47:45.760 --> 0:47:48.440 guitar players. I have about five in each instrument. It 0:47:48.480 --> 0:47:51.520 seems to to me that that uh, I kind of 0:47:51.560 --> 0:47:55.400 gravitate towards Okay, so let's just assume the engineer gets 0:47:55.440 --> 0:47:58.000 the sound in the studio. How do you like to 0:47:58.040 --> 0:48:00.520 build the record? Do you start? You know, you ever 0:48:00.600 --> 0:48:02.200 make a record with a whole band in the room, 0:48:02.280 --> 0:48:05.239 or you always start with the drums out. I make 0:48:05.320 --> 0:48:07.879 records usually with the whole band in the room. That's 0:48:08.040 --> 0:48:10.399 that's what people tend to want me to do. They 0:48:10.400 --> 0:48:14.000 want a live situation. You know, even if we have 0:48:14.080 --> 0:48:17.239 a lot of like what I call preproduction or you know, 0:48:17.680 --> 0:48:20.200 tracks that we have to work with, they still want 0:48:20.280 --> 0:48:23.799 that feel of a band. That's usually what I do. 0:48:24.400 --> 0:48:28.880 So you going and you get basic sounds from each instrument, 0:48:28.880 --> 0:48:30.600 and the guys that I hire come in with an 0:48:30.719 --> 0:48:33.400 arsenal of of of equipment. That's that's top notch, right, 0:48:33.440 --> 0:48:36.319 So you know you're getting great sounds. It's not like 0:48:36.360 --> 0:48:39.520 you're hiring a band that don't have instruments and you're 0:48:39.520 --> 0:48:41.440 having to rent amps and all that kind of stuff. 0:48:41.480 --> 0:48:45.439 So and you know, you know, I like it that way. 0:48:45.560 --> 0:48:47.680 It's not that I won't use studio musicians. As a 0:48:47.680 --> 0:48:50.160 matter of fact, sometimes when you hire people who don't 0:48:50.160 --> 0:48:52.959 play in the studio or just live musicians, you get 0:48:53.360 --> 0:48:56.080 you get a different flavor. That's great. Do I have 0:48:56.120 --> 0:48:59.879 the same amount of patients that I had twenty years ago? No? 0:49:00.719 --> 0:49:03.799 Am I as interested in doing bands? No? I'm just not. 0:49:03.960 --> 0:49:07.120 You know, that's that window is closed. Not saying that 0:49:07.160 --> 0:49:11.560 I wouldn't do a band, but sitting endless hours in 0:49:11.600 --> 0:49:13.680 the studio just trying to get a decent drum sound 0:49:13.719 --> 0:49:16.920 or decent guitarist sound. I'll leave that to some you know, 0:49:17.000 --> 0:49:20.759 some younger folks. Okay, do you read music? And do 0:49:20.800 --> 0:49:25.440 your studio musicians read music? I read poorly, always have. 0:49:25.520 --> 0:49:28.919 I'm a guitar player. Uh. As a matter of fact, 0:49:29.000 --> 0:49:31.600 I almost didn't move to Los Angeles because I thought 0:49:31.640 --> 0:49:34.120 that you had to be a much better reader. And 0:49:34.200 --> 0:49:36.359 luckily I had a guy said, nah, that you can. 0:49:36.520 --> 0:49:38.800 You can fake it. They want you for your ideas. 0:49:39.800 --> 0:49:45.360 Um in Nashville, it's it's if you heard that number 0:49:45.400 --> 0:49:48.600 system that's used here, no explain it. Yeah, it's it's 0:49:48.719 --> 0:49:51.160 it's instesting, it's music theories. What it is that people 0:49:51.200 --> 0:49:54.440 think it's this weird thing that it's just basically, if 0:49:54.440 --> 0:49:56.480 you have a scale right, say you're in the key 0:49:56.480 --> 0:49:59.320 of cf C D E F G A B C 0:49:59.600 --> 0:50:03.040 right one, two, five, six, seven, eight, the one chord 0:50:03.040 --> 0:50:05.840 would be a C cord, The four chord would be 0:50:05.880 --> 0:50:08.239 an F chord, the five chord would be a G chord. 0:50:08.400 --> 0:50:11.400 There you go. The sixth chord would be an a 0:50:11.440 --> 0:50:13.440 minor chord. If you're it's music theory, you know, I 0:50:13.480 --> 0:50:17.400 mean without going into it. So the way I understand it, 0:50:17.440 --> 0:50:20.600 I'm not real big on my music history in Nashville, 0:50:21.200 --> 0:50:25.080 but acts would come in and record there. It's a 0:50:25.120 --> 0:50:30.560 touring uh, basically publishing town. Acts would come in, they 0:50:30.600 --> 0:50:32.880 do their records on Mondays in Tuesdays, and they'd be 0:50:32.920 --> 0:50:35.120 out on the road the rest of the week. So 0:50:35.160 --> 0:50:37.680 there was not a lot of pre production. So you know, 0:50:38.080 --> 0:50:39.959 if you're doing a song, if you write a chart 0:50:40.000 --> 0:50:44.640 out saying the key of of a singer would price 0:50:44.640 --> 0:50:46.680 sing it in D flat right, Well, the singer comes in, 0:50:46.719 --> 0:50:49.359 they want to sing it in the natural. If you're 0:50:49.360 --> 0:50:51.200 looking at a chart and you're looking at a D 0:50:51.320 --> 0:50:53.799 flat and you're having to play in the natural. There 0:50:53.800 --> 0:50:57.320 are musicians who can do that wonderfully, but guitar players 0:50:57.320 --> 0:51:00.120 not so much. You know some who could, but but 0:51:00.320 --> 0:51:02.719 for the most part they so they developed this thing. 0:51:02.800 --> 0:51:07.279 That's it's it's a number system. Basically, wherever one is, 0:51:07.400 --> 0:51:10.399 that's your key, right, So you're not looking at courts, 0:51:10.400 --> 0:51:13.880 you're looking at numbers. So if we're in D flat, 0:51:14.760 --> 0:51:18.560 one is D flat, right, that's it? And and and 0:51:18.600 --> 0:51:21.160 then you five is a flat, Well you want to 0:51:21.239 --> 0:51:22.920 move it to the key of E. You still got 0:51:22.920 --> 0:51:27.960 your number chart one, there's E. Five is B. I 0:51:27.960 --> 0:51:30.759 don't know if that sounds more complicated or not. No, no, 0:51:30.960 --> 0:51:33.280 especially if you do it every day. I get it completely. 0:51:33.280 --> 0:51:36.440 It's an alternative system as opposed to reading notes on 0:51:36.480 --> 0:51:40.280 the staff. For me, I just memorize stuff. I mean again, 0:51:40.360 --> 0:51:42.480 it's it's how hard is this stuff? It's like you 0:51:42.560 --> 0:51:45.880 listen to it once or twice and you got it 0:51:45.920 --> 0:51:47.680 to each his own. I would say. There are some 0:51:47.800 --> 0:51:51.000 musicians that I work with that will come in and 0:51:51.080 --> 0:51:54.000 they will they will write out the actual chord symbols 0:51:54.920 --> 0:51:56.880 and and some musicians that I work with that that 0:51:57.200 --> 0:51:59.279 prefer not to read at all. You know, it's just 0:51:59.320 --> 0:52:02.600 whatever whatever it takes to get to that point. I'm 0:52:02.600 --> 0:52:05.480 not a real stickler on it before mixing. How do 0:52:05.520 --> 0:52:08.400 you know when a track is done? Instinct? You know, 0:52:08.719 --> 0:52:12.920 I mean that's pretty subjective, right when you when you 0:52:13.000 --> 0:52:15.600 take the mantle of the producer. It's when I say 0:52:15.640 --> 0:52:18.200 it's done, you know. And then and then I turned 0:52:18.200 --> 0:52:24.440 to the artists, gope, you think it's done, it's we 0:52:24.560 --> 0:52:27.239 know nothing still. That's that's the beauty of it. It's 0:52:27.480 --> 0:52:33.480 a humbling job at any juncture. It's just anybody that 0:52:33.520 --> 0:52:35.919 says they know this ship is, they're full of ship. 0:52:36.120 --> 0:52:39.080 I'm just telling you that you you you take your 0:52:39.120 --> 0:52:42.520 best guesses, right, people pay me for my best guesses. 0:52:42.680 --> 0:52:45.680 And somebody's got to say when you stop you talk 0:52:45.719 --> 0:52:48.680 about copying vocals, You pretty much do that on every record. 0:52:48.880 --> 0:52:52.640 I'm hands on. Yeah, that's the main instrument on the record. 0:52:52.680 --> 0:52:56.600 So yes, I I look at the voice like like 0:52:56.840 --> 0:52:59.440 it's an It's an instrument. Everything is an instrument to me. 0:53:00.000 --> 0:53:03.160 So I'm listening to the sound of the voice, the 0:53:03.200 --> 0:53:06.400 way that the way the vowels and consonants sound, the 0:53:06.400 --> 0:53:10.920 way the rhythm against the track, the tonality. There's so 0:53:11.120 --> 0:53:14.600 much into to a human voice, and so I comp 0:53:14.960 --> 0:53:17.839 based on that, based on the way it sounds. To me, 0:53:18.440 --> 0:53:22.000 most artists that I work with really like the way 0:53:22.040 --> 0:53:26.120 I comp vocals. I mean it's personally I would rather 0:53:26.239 --> 0:53:28.600 not have to to have to do that, but but 0:53:28.680 --> 0:53:31.919 it's it's you know, it's a recording. When people say, 0:53:33.400 --> 0:53:35.640 you know, people, he used to drive me crazy when 0:53:35.640 --> 0:53:38.840 I played guitar solos. The first thing they would say 0:53:38.680 --> 0:53:42.160 the g I t students? Right, how many takes to 0:53:42.160 --> 0:53:44.160 take to get get to that solo? Is that? What 0:53:44.200 --> 0:53:47.200 does it matter? It's a recording. It's like did you 0:53:47.239 --> 0:53:49.760 get what you wanted to say? It's like a painting. 0:53:49.800 --> 0:53:51.400 You don't ask a painter how long it took it 0:53:51.400 --> 0:53:54.439 into paint? Something is it? Is that what you meant 0:53:54.480 --> 0:53:57.839 to say? Vocals are that same thing. You can sing 0:53:57.880 --> 0:54:00.319 a song a hundred times and you're gonna saying it 0:54:00.760 --> 0:54:05.160 slightly different every time. Right. My job is to figure 0:54:05.160 --> 0:54:09.879 out what's the most effective, and I tend to hear 0:54:09.960 --> 0:54:13.919 vocals as instruments. Do you ever leave the mistakes in? 0:54:14.600 --> 0:54:17.520 You know, sometimes things could be copped to the degree 0:54:17.680 --> 0:54:22.480 they lose humanity. So so true. I guarantee I have 0:54:23.000 --> 0:54:26.520 aired it made more mistakes. And that the greatest thing 0:54:26.640 --> 0:54:29.759 that I ever had said to me early in my 0:54:29.760 --> 0:54:33.880 production career. Again, the monkey on my shoulder is the 0:54:33.920 --> 0:54:39.040 presence of Mutt Lang, who I you know, just holding 0:54:39.080 --> 0:54:41.040 such a high est team. I could never make records 0:54:41.080 --> 0:54:44.080 like that, but I'm trying, and it's he's right there. 0:54:45.000 --> 0:54:47.000 He would laugh at that, right, but he's right here 0:54:47.440 --> 0:54:50.760 on my shoulder. I was working with Keith Urban, who 0:54:51.400 --> 0:54:55.000 is a brother, and we we really came up through 0:54:55.000 --> 0:54:59.399 the ranks together and I owe him a lot. But 0:54:59.680 --> 0:55:01.520 there are is a story that we were we were 0:55:01.520 --> 0:55:06.080 doing a record and and uh, he got really angry 0:55:06.080 --> 0:55:08.359 at me, heard this confident and he and he goes, 0:55:09.080 --> 0:55:13.440 you made me sound too fucking good, and I was, 0:55:13.760 --> 0:55:17.920 I was so I was. It didn't compute. And this 0:55:17.960 --> 0:55:22.040 is how dense. I was right, I didn't compute. Well, 0:55:22.120 --> 0:55:25.920 excuse me for making you sound he said great. I 0:55:25.960 --> 0:55:28.000 don't think he said good. He said to fucking great. 0:55:28.040 --> 0:55:33.600 Whatever he said, it took a while to realize what 0:55:33.640 --> 0:55:38.160 he was saying. He wanted the tension, he didn't he 0:55:38.200 --> 0:55:41.000 didn't want it to be perfect. He wanted to feel 0:55:41.000 --> 0:55:44.080 like it was going off the rails. It was. It 0:55:44.160 --> 0:55:47.480 was probably this one of the most single, singular moments 0:55:47.480 --> 0:55:50.640 in my production career that meant more to me musically 0:55:50.680 --> 0:55:53.959 than than probably anything, and it's affected me. So to 0:55:54.120 --> 0:56:02.080 answer your question, where I've landed his tension. You want 0:56:02.080 --> 0:56:10.359 to feel music that makes you feel like you'rere and 0:56:10.360 --> 0:56:11.680 this is hard to do and I don't do it 0:56:11.719 --> 0:56:14.000 all the time, and said, this is my aspiration, right, So, 0:56:14.200 --> 0:56:16.279 because you hear some of my music I've made and go, 0:56:16.840 --> 0:56:20.680 you've missed the mark. It's the aspiration. You want to 0:56:20.719 --> 0:56:25.080 feel something that it's both known and unknown. You want 0:56:25.080 --> 0:56:29.880 to feel like you're on a track ready to possibly 0:56:29.920 --> 0:56:31.640 go off the side of the track. You don't want 0:56:31.640 --> 0:56:33.600 to be so safe that there's not a bit of 0:56:33.680 --> 0:56:38.120 mystery and and danger to your to your to your journey. 0:56:38.239 --> 0:56:42.239 Right So in comps, yes, that's true. I mean you 0:56:42.280 --> 0:56:46.239 can you can make vocals sound too perfect and they're boring, right, 0:56:48.520 --> 0:56:50.799 you also have to You're also answering to an artist 0:56:50.880 --> 0:56:53.160 too and what their threshold for how they want to sound. 0:56:53.200 --> 0:56:55.319 So in a perfect world, though I like the yin 0:56:55.400 --> 0:56:59.680 and yang of of it, of of the impact and 0:56:59.760 --> 0:57:02.320 of of something being great and yet there being a 0:57:02.400 --> 0:57:06.440 vulnerability at the same time to it. And again subjective. 0:57:06.680 --> 0:57:09.000 None of this stuff is is something that we can 0:57:09.000 --> 0:57:12.120 objectively say, Yes, this is the definitive answer here. I mean, 0:57:12.120 --> 0:57:14.440 you're in your home studio. Now, people can't see that, 0:57:14.640 --> 0:57:18.360 uh listening. But do you cut all in one room 0:57:18.480 --> 0:57:20.680 or you just got basics in one room and then 0:57:20.680 --> 0:57:22.600 you go to another room which is cheaper? How do 0:57:22.640 --> 0:57:26.760 you do? I record bands downtown in Nashville and proper 0:57:26.760 --> 0:57:28.920 studios because they're set up for that. You know, it's easier. 0:57:29.040 --> 0:57:30.800 You get a bunch of people. I'm in a residential 0:57:30.800 --> 0:57:34.320 neighborhood here, So in my studio I have a great 0:57:34.360 --> 0:57:37.960 vocal booth. Actually the control room is a vocal booth 0:57:38.040 --> 0:57:40.479 in a in and of itself too. It sounds great 0:57:40.480 --> 0:57:43.240 in here. So they can either stay be in a 0:57:43.280 --> 0:57:45.440 vocal booth or they can sit here in the control 0:57:45.520 --> 0:57:48.120 room with me. We put on some headphones I have 0:57:48.920 --> 0:57:51.440 around me, you know, guitar player, so I have all 0:57:51.480 --> 0:57:55.080 my guitars and amps here, have all that stuff, your keyboards, 0:57:55.080 --> 0:57:57.880 so so I I go go down like on a 0:57:57.920 --> 0:58:01.240 typical record and records. If we we say, let's just 0:58:01.240 --> 0:58:05.640 say ten tracks for for example, take me five days 0:58:05.680 --> 0:58:09.520 six days to get that the basics the structure of 0:58:09.520 --> 0:58:13.040 the record tracks. I then take a hard drive from 0:58:13.120 --> 0:58:15.680 that back to my house and then we do vocals here. 0:58:15.680 --> 0:58:21.840 I'll do my guitar overdubs here, incidental overdubs. A lot 0:58:21.840 --> 0:58:24.600 of times I have some some harmony background singers who 0:58:25.280 --> 0:58:30.760 this is beautiful introduction because of technology. I'll I'll call 0:58:30.840 --> 0:58:33.760 him up. And doing background vocals sometimes can be like 0:58:33.760 --> 0:58:36.920 watching paint dry. You know, if it's just harmonies, it's like, 0:58:37.000 --> 0:58:39.080 you know, it's got a great singer. Hey, I need 0:58:39.120 --> 0:58:41.760 you to sing the third above, maybe a little bit 0:58:41.800 --> 0:58:44.920 below heart here, do this, here, do that. If you 0:58:44.920 --> 0:58:47.640 have some extra stuff you want to do, I'll send 0:58:47.680 --> 0:58:50.280 them over the internet. I'll send them you know, the 0:58:50.640 --> 0:58:53.480 tracks and and and bounce down and they'll send it 0:58:53.520 --> 0:58:55.360 back to me. Then I'll critique that and we'll we'll 0:58:55.640 --> 0:58:58.000 we'll be more specific and we'll get it. That way. 0:58:58.320 --> 0:58:59.880 It saves me a little bit of time. But yeah, 0:58:59.920 --> 0:59:03.720 i'd say i'd say sevent of making a record I 0:59:03.760 --> 0:59:06.720 do here in my house. And as far as the 0:59:06.760 --> 0:59:10.400 studios you cut basics in. Is it always the same 0:59:10.440 --> 0:59:13.200 one or you don't care? I don't care. As a 0:59:13.240 --> 0:59:17.960 matter of fact. Again, it's just you know, it's decent equipment. 0:59:18.440 --> 0:59:20.120 I'd rather not be in the same place. I mean, 0:59:20.120 --> 0:59:23.760 there's some great studios here in town. But you know, 0:59:23.760 --> 0:59:26.280 I've been in studios since I was a kid, and 0:59:26.360 --> 0:59:30.120 it's I've never studio has never made a hit record, 0:59:31.160 --> 0:59:34.400 you know. Okay, So you're mixing engineer. Does he have 0:59:34.520 --> 0:59:38.400 his own room? He does? Okay, How involved are you 0:59:38.440 --> 0:59:41.680 in the mix in the process? Where do you say, 0:59:42.040 --> 0:59:44.480 take a whack at it, then let me hear it. 0:59:44.720 --> 0:59:47.960 By the time I send him what I've what I've 0:59:48.560 --> 0:59:54.520 landed on, it's in a pseudo mixed state. Um and 0:59:54.960 --> 1:00:00.560 I work on pro tools, and so I wanted to 1:00:00.640 --> 1:00:04.040 sound it's to me, it's like taking a polaroid. I 1:00:04.040 --> 1:00:07.400 wanted to be that concise. I wanted to be almost 1:00:07.560 --> 1:00:11.440 the thing. So when I send it to my mixing engineer, 1:00:12.240 --> 1:00:16.880 he knows of my intent and he's and he and 1:00:16.960 --> 1:00:20.040 he gets It's not like like in the old days 1:00:20.040 --> 1:00:22.080 where you send a tape and and you have to 1:00:22.160 --> 1:00:24.720 pull up faders. Okay, Well, here's the kick drum. Here's 1:00:24.760 --> 1:00:29.400 the base. When he pulls up a session, he's hearing 1:00:29.400 --> 1:00:32.160 the last thing the way that I that the artists 1:00:32.160 --> 1:00:34.360 as signed off, the labels signed off when they hear 1:00:34.400 --> 1:00:37.000 the rough mixes. So it's in a what I would 1:00:37.040 --> 1:00:40.600 call a more than a rough mix. It's it's it's 1:00:40.640 --> 1:00:43.840 it's a it's a it's close to a mixed state. 1:00:44.280 --> 1:00:48.600 It's sub mixed. I should say that, and then then 1:00:48.680 --> 1:00:51.560 yes with with with the guy that I mentioned justin Kneebank, 1:00:53.840 --> 1:00:58.240 he always has he knows he has the freedom too mute, 1:00:58.240 --> 1:01:01.480 things to changed to do. You know, I want I 1:01:01.520 --> 1:01:04.120 want his take on it. I want his reaction to it. 1:01:04.600 --> 1:01:07.080 But but it's not like it's a blind reaction to it. 1:01:07.120 --> 1:01:09.320 He knows pretty much where I'm what I'm thinking about 1:01:09.320 --> 1:01:19.480 this point. Okay, so he fixes alan, he sent you 1:01:19.600 --> 1:01:22.040 his mix. How long does it take to get to 1:01:22.120 --> 1:01:26.760 a final Sometimes he gets it first take. It's staggering 1:01:26.760 --> 1:01:29.720 how good he is. There are other times where it's 1:01:30.560 --> 1:01:33.480 it's great. We just went through something. The artist signed 1:01:33.520 --> 1:01:35.160 off on it, the label signed off on it. But 1:01:35.760 --> 1:01:37.880 I still had quite a few things that I wanted 1:01:37.920 --> 1:01:40.720 to try. So we we then went to a proper 1:01:41.120 --> 1:01:43.760 studio downtown. Well, I guess we could have gone to 1:01:43.840 --> 1:01:47.040 his house, but we went somewhere in Nashville and we 1:01:47.120 --> 1:01:49.360 sat for three four days and we just we just 1:01:49.480 --> 1:01:51.600 made moves like like kind of the good old days, 1:01:51.960 --> 1:01:54.880 and we had a great time, great laugh just hanging 1:01:54.880 --> 1:02:00.920 out together. Um again, it's that collaboration. It's it's it's 1:02:00.960 --> 1:02:02.760 the things that you don't know that you're gonna do 1:02:02.800 --> 1:02:04.840 when you're sitting listening in a room with somebody else 1:02:04.880 --> 1:02:08.360 listening to the same thing. We do a lot of 1:02:08.400 --> 1:02:11.200 what he calls living room. He likes he he likes 1:02:11.200 --> 1:02:13.000 to turn on a mix after he's been working on 1:02:13.040 --> 1:02:15.720 it for a day. He turns in a very low 1:02:15.760 --> 1:02:19.800 he listens at a very low decibel level, and he'll 1:02:19.800 --> 1:02:21.800 sit in the back of a room, almost like there's 1:02:21.840 --> 1:02:24.360 music playing on at a party, and we'll just listen 1:02:24.400 --> 1:02:27.560 to it and eat lunch or just talk. And more 1:02:27.600 --> 1:02:31.040 things come out from that configuration than sitting in front 1:02:31.120 --> 1:02:35.160 of UH speakers and being just absolutely dedicated to listening 1:02:35.200 --> 1:02:37.920 to a mix and we just we we It's basically 1:02:37.960 --> 1:02:40.640 you just fudge around with something and too it's like, well, 1:02:40.640 --> 1:02:42.720 I got nothing more to say about it, and then 1:02:42.800 --> 1:02:46.240 we're done. You know what about mastering. I got a 1:02:46.240 --> 1:02:48.880 guy that I've worked with for years and I can 1:02:48.960 --> 1:02:51.360 truly say I've only been up to Gateway one time, 1:02:52.280 --> 1:02:57.640 up in up in uh Main, Yeah, and Bob was 1:02:57.640 --> 1:03:00.440 one of the great rock mastering guys with there. So 1:03:00.760 --> 1:03:03.960 I started using him. And there's a he's so busy 1:03:04.000 --> 1:03:07.200 that there's got named Adam that worked for him, Adam 1:03:07.240 --> 1:03:10.840 an that just started sending records and he was sending 1:03:10.840 --> 1:03:12.560 me back his first you know, his run throughs, and 1:03:12.640 --> 1:03:15.000 it's like, well, that's done. I'm not gonna go up there. 1:03:16.520 --> 1:03:20.040 It's the most perfect scenario. Again, there are other great 1:03:20.080 --> 1:03:24.560 mastering places. Stertling is staggering, you know, it's like but 1:03:24.560 --> 1:03:27.680 but by and large he's he's like he's like an 1:03:27.720 --> 1:03:33.520 automatic and we've done enough records together. It's like very settled. Me. 1:03:33.560 --> 1:03:36.080 Do I hear something go? It's once in a while 1:03:36.120 --> 1:03:38.560 I'll say, hey, back off the compression a little bit, 1:03:38.800 --> 1:03:41.400 or maybe it sounds like we we got cocaine highs. 1:03:41.440 --> 1:03:43.120 You know, it's like it's you know, it's a little 1:03:43.160 --> 1:03:47.080 bristling on the top end. But no, I'm looking for 1:03:47.120 --> 1:03:50.600 as many ways that I can. It's not reduce the workload, 1:03:50.840 --> 1:03:54.560 it's just to reduce to to pinpoint where I can 1:03:54.600 --> 1:03:57.920 be most effective. And just sitting in a mastering studio 1:03:57.960 --> 1:04:02.520 after I've worked on a project for my it's mixed it, 1:04:02.520 --> 1:04:04.400 It's like, I, No, I'm not gonna do that. Are 1:04:04.440 --> 1:04:06.280 you a gear head? I don't know if you saw 1:04:06.400 --> 1:04:08.919 the guitars and amps. I mean to some degree, I'm 1:04:08.920 --> 1:04:13.400 not a collector. And I used to put it this way. 1:04:13.400 --> 1:04:16.920 I used to shoot out Mike's every record. You know, 1:04:16.960 --> 1:04:19.280 you're bringing an artist in and you have ten mics 1:04:19.360 --> 1:04:21.640 out there in the studio from the rental company, and 1:04:22.280 --> 1:04:24.080 they're singing a verse in the course of each one, 1:04:24.120 --> 1:04:28.760 and then you sit there and I realized that at 1:04:28.760 --> 1:04:31.480 the time, I chose one Mike. And I heard a 1:04:31.520 --> 1:04:33.200 story about a friend of mine going down to a 1:04:33.280 --> 1:04:35.960 hip hop studio down in Atlanta. He wanted to go 1:04:36.000 --> 1:04:38.520 into the mic clocker, you know where you get choose 1:04:38.520 --> 1:04:42.720 all your mics, course, and the guy said, yeah, he 1:04:42.760 --> 1:04:44.480 said that we got a Mike locker, and he showed 1:04:44.520 --> 1:04:47.920 him to the mic locker and he opened the closet 1:04:47.960 --> 1:04:51.760 door and there was a mic and it was when 1:04:51.800 --> 1:04:55.480 Ding Ding ding ding ding ding ding. So I found 1:04:55.480 --> 1:04:57.960 the mic that I like to use. I I just 1:04:58.080 --> 1:05:00.480 I like a T six nine him in too six nine. 1:05:00.520 --> 1:05:04.280 I found just a premium just tweeked old vintage mike. 1:05:05.360 --> 1:05:08.040 And that's the mic. You know, Well, I use an 1:05:08.120 --> 1:05:10.920 SM seven or if I use whatever. If I go 1:05:10.960 --> 1:05:13.880 to other studios, yeah, I use whatever they got. I 1:05:13.920 --> 1:05:15.560 got this great mike. And course a lot of the 1:05:15.640 --> 1:05:18.120 artists that I go, you know that's the now it's 1:05:18.240 --> 1:05:20.960 the mic, right, which just it's the mic because the 1:05:21.000 --> 1:05:24.720 mic we have up in the studio, and it's the same, 1:05:24.840 --> 1:05:27.360 it goes the same way across the board is there'sre's 1:05:27.360 --> 1:05:30.240 a certain point you can sit there. I've set for 1:05:30.320 --> 1:05:32.520 so many hours. I've wasted I think years of my 1:05:32.600 --> 1:05:37.080 life waiting for engineers to try different compressors. Which it's 1:05:37.120 --> 1:05:41.000 so infintesimal. I gotta I gotta feel the difference. I 1:05:41.200 --> 1:05:43.320 it's if if if, if I have to strain to 1:05:43.360 --> 1:05:47.520 hear a difference. It's not different. Right when you're mixing, 1:05:48.520 --> 1:05:52.000 shove a fader up, don't don't don't type in point 1:05:52.080 --> 1:05:55.320 to decibel, right, I mean there's an argument to be made. 1:05:55.320 --> 1:05:58.000 I'm not I'm not No, I am dissing it. I'm 1:05:58.040 --> 1:06:00.640 dissing at all. It's just it's there's got to feel 1:06:00.640 --> 1:06:05.040 the impact. And if the sound doesn't really change drastically 1:06:05.120 --> 1:06:07.920 to where you can feel it here, it it's it's 1:06:08.000 --> 1:06:10.760 it's a moot point. So gear wise, I feel that 1:06:10.760 --> 1:06:12.800 That's the way I feel about all gear. I have 1:06:12.880 --> 1:06:15.120 great gear here at the house, but I'm not gonna 1:06:15.160 --> 1:06:18.600 sit there and have fifteen different preamps because I lose. 1:06:19.360 --> 1:06:21.400 Because by the time you've gone through it, you've lost 1:06:21.640 --> 1:06:25.440 the muse. Right. I used to watch singers just glaze 1:06:25.520 --> 1:06:28.160 over by the time I got through to the mic. 1:06:28.320 --> 1:06:30.840 There's the micro gonna use. They were they were put 1:06:30.880 --> 1:06:32.680 they didn't want to sing, Okay, I can see in 1:06:32.720 --> 1:06:35.480 the video gentile X. So are you a gentile X 1:06:35.560 --> 1:06:38.600 guy or you really don't care? They're they're here, They're great. 1:06:39.120 --> 1:06:41.120 I know it's a horrible thing to say, right, No, 1:06:41.320 --> 1:06:43.680 I mean you made the choice. Some people say genial 1:06:43.840 --> 1:06:46.400 X are great. Some people say this is my sound, 1:06:46.440 --> 1:06:48.480 this is what I want, and the old days over 1:06:48.560 --> 1:06:51.080 the n S ten ms. You know, I like these. 1:06:51.120 --> 1:06:54.480 I like these, you can I like. I mean, what 1:06:54.560 --> 1:06:56.880 I really like is these little things they don't make. 1:06:56.920 --> 1:07:00.240 These are called n HT pros, and I used to 1:07:00.280 --> 1:07:02.440 have them even closer. I had them stands that literally 1:07:02.480 --> 1:07:05.240 it was like they were like almost earphones, but not 1:07:05.360 --> 1:07:08.840 ear phones. I listened really quietly, just I don't want 1:07:08.840 --> 1:07:10.600 to lose my hearing. And plus you can't hear when 1:07:10.600 --> 1:07:12.680 you play loud, so I listened to the level it's 1:07:12.760 --> 1:07:16.080 uncomfortably low. But I like to have the speakers close 1:07:16.120 --> 1:07:19.040 to my ears so you hear the bottom end. And 1:07:19.120 --> 1:07:21.200 I don't know how I got those, but I just 1:07:21.280 --> 1:07:23.280 like them. And and the main thing is that you 1:07:23.440 --> 1:07:27.200 just know what you're hearing. You know, the speakers don't 1:07:27.240 --> 1:07:28.680 have to be great that you just have to know 1:07:28.840 --> 1:07:31.040 exactly what you're hearing and how that relates to other 1:07:31.080 --> 1:07:34.960 sound systems. What's your view on analog versus digital. I 1:07:35.040 --> 1:07:37.640 love analog. I just hate working on it. It's just 1:07:37.760 --> 1:07:41.560 it's it's pain. If if I have a PROD project 1:07:42.000 --> 1:07:46.919 to where we're going for a thing right and we're 1:07:47.080 --> 1:07:50.240 we're not we're not dealing with all that XS and 1:07:50.280 --> 1:07:59.919 oh's of programmed percussion, all that stuff. A grid analogs great, Yeah, 1:08:00.280 --> 1:08:04.920 if you have a to me, it's like like you know, 1:08:05.040 --> 1:08:06.400 like you know, when we were kids, what do we 1:08:06.440 --> 1:08:09.520 had the crayon box that had what eight because they 1:08:09.560 --> 1:08:11.520 had it with like thirty two. I never had one 1:08:11.920 --> 1:08:14.680 with a little uh sharpener in the front, right. And 1:08:14.720 --> 1:08:16.840 sometimes there's a reason for having the thirty two, But 1:08:16.920 --> 1:08:20.120 sometimes it's great having an eight, right, and you limit 1:08:20.160 --> 1:08:26.960 the the options. I love that at first you could 1:08:26.960 --> 1:08:31.439 hear a big difference there. The technology has been around 1:08:31.640 --> 1:08:35.040 long enough and the engineers are are so good that 1:08:35.040 --> 1:08:38.040 it's hard to tell the difference now to where it 1:08:38.160 --> 1:08:43.080 matters from an emotional standpoint musically. So it's not an 1:08:43.120 --> 1:08:44.880 argum to me, it's not an argument what's better, it's 1:08:44.920 --> 1:08:48.479 what's what? What's what more facilitates your workflow at that point. 1:08:48.680 --> 1:08:51.800 So your referenced earlier country music today, so what's your 1:08:52.120 --> 1:08:53.920 This is where you work, but what's your take on 1:08:53.960 --> 1:08:58.559 the music? It's it kind of became the receptacle of 1:08:58.600 --> 1:09:00.880 what rock was from the eighties. Well, I mean I 1:09:00.880 --> 1:09:04.040 remember Tom Petty. I saw him once and he said 1:09:04.240 --> 1:09:06.160 he called it the country music of the seventies, of 1:09:06.200 --> 1:09:09.400 the rock music of the seventies. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's 1:09:09.479 --> 1:09:15.960 it's it's it's where I can survive, right, it's no, 1:09:16.200 --> 1:09:21.439 it's it's a big tent. Having lived now the majority 1:09:21.439 --> 1:09:25.080 of my life here, I've I've I've I've come through 1:09:25.080 --> 1:09:30.800 the back door into an immense appreciation and respect for 1:09:30.880 --> 1:09:33.439 country music that I didn't have when I was a 1:09:33.479 --> 1:09:37.760 young buck growing up here, Like I wanted to have 1:09:37.880 --> 1:09:40.800 nothing to do with it. There's a real rock and 1:09:40.920 --> 1:09:45.160 roll component to old country music. That's great. I think 1:09:45.160 --> 1:09:48.360 there's some wonderful new country music that's being made that's 1:09:48.400 --> 1:09:56.479 just you know, it's just it's They allow a lot 1:09:56.560 --> 1:09:59.479 of a lot of differentials now that didn't exist when 1:09:59.520 --> 1:10:02.360 I was a kid. It you know, and you'll and you'll, 1:10:02.600 --> 1:10:05.040 you'll go and and and you can listen to from 1:10:05.040 --> 1:10:09.240 a from a Chris Stapleton to Kane Brown record, you know, 1:10:10.720 --> 1:10:13.200 to a Keith Urban record to you know, just you 1:10:13.240 --> 1:10:17.960 can you can go down the list and it's yeah, 1:10:18.080 --> 1:10:20.880 it's it's it's the nice thing about I will say 1:10:20.920 --> 1:10:23.000 that I'm and I'm not. You know, it's like, there's 1:10:23.040 --> 1:10:24.960 no better place, but I happen to live here. And 1:10:25.080 --> 1:10:27.679 and so you you tend to be able to see 1:10:27.920 --> 1:10:33.559 the good points and the flaws, right, the good points 1:10:33.600 --> 1:10:37.400 about the strength of Nashville is that it's still wrapped 1:10:37.439 --> 1:10:40.200 around live musicians. And I think that's a real plus 1:10:40.280 --> 1:10:43.040 because that's being lost in a lot of other areas. Right. 1:10:43.920 --> 1:10:46.280 Certainly not the only way to make music. It's not 1:10:46.360 --> 1:10:48.880 the way you make great hip hop music. It can't 1:10:48.880 --> 1:10:52.439 be right. But so this is a place, this is 1:10:52.479 --> 1:10:55.360 a thing, it's a it's it's a piece of the conversation. 1:10:55.920 --> 1:11:00.000 And and I think that's the wonderful thing about country music. Um, 1:11:00.080 --> 1:11:02.080 if you like you know, for for me, I didn't 1:11:02.080 --> 1:11:04.240 grow up with bluegrass music. I didn't grow up with 1:11:04.280 --> 1:11:07.160 real whiny kind of uh you know what I would 1:11:07.160 --> 1:11:09.400 call whiney country music. Of course somebody that would be 1:11:09.439 --> 1:11:12.960 fighting words for somebody else, but that just wasn't my culture. 1:11:13.040 --> 1:11:19.160 Right nowadays, you can do this other kind of hybrid 1:11:19.280 --> 1:11:22.639 and and still be a part of the conversation. And 1:11:22.720 --> 1:11:25.960 so I think that's the wonderful thing about Nashville. And 1:11:26.200 --> 1:11:28.880 you know, there's always gonna be a corporate side because 1:11:28.960 --> 1:11:31.479 the business exists to make money. I mean, if you 1:11:31.560 --> 1:11:34.559 if you can't make money, you know, there's no business. 1:11:34.600 --> 1:11:38.559 So that's when you're you balance that art versus commerce thing. 1:11:38.640 --> 1:11:42.520 That's that's never gonna be a conversation that that anybody's 1:11:42.520 --> 1:11:44.439 gonna come up with a with an answer that that 1:11:44.439 --> 1:11:48.120 that satisfies everybody. But overall, it's it's a good thing. 1:11:48.320 --> 1:11:50.760 And I never thought in a million years that I 1:11:51.040 --> 1:11:53.559 that I would be that guy. As a matter of fact, 1:11:53.760 --> 1:11:57.360 that's what people say. Yeah, Dan's the country producer, and 1:11:57.439 --> 1:12:00.599 I thought I was a rock guitar player. You know, Okay, 1:12:00.840 --> 1:12:05.120 in the last twenty five years, with all this digital change, 1:12:05.720 --> 1:12:09.040 what do we know? We know the country audience went 1:12:09.080 --> 1:12:13.160 to streaming before the rock audience. We know the paradigm 1:12:13.200 --> 1:12:16.479 of radio being the be all and end all has 1:12:16.800 --> 1:12:19.640 is not the case anymore, even though it's very important. 1:12:20.320 --> 1:12:24.559 Can you feel less of a stranglehold from the traditional systems. 1:12:25.120 --> 1:12:28.720 Is there an evolution in the overall business that's allowing 1:12:29.280 --> 1:12:32.599 growth in what kind of sounds and pushing the envelope? Yeah, 1:12:32.600 --> 1:12:35.960 it was. It's it's predicated on streaming, right, it's it's 1:12:36.520 --> 1:12:38.640 it was all. It was all through the funnel of 1:12:38.720 --> 1:12:42.000 radio and hits and and being able to control hits. 1:12:42.120 --> 1:12:44.920 Now we we we don't control what hits are anymore. 1:12:45.640 --> 1:12:48.120 You can control what radio hits are still to some degree, 1:12:48.360 --> 1:12:51.080 but that's not the music that's moving the masses. Right, 1:12:52.400 --> 1:12:56.800 you have a real time way of a barometer of 1:12:57.760 --> 1:13:02.360 finding out what people care about. And that's exciting and 1:13:02.360 --> 1:13:06.240 and and terrifying at the same time. Right, you can't 1:13:06.280 --> 1:13:11.280 control it. Moved on and country music, you know, is 1:13:11.920 --> 1:13:18.479 coming to that realization. Um, yeah, and I think it's great. 1:13:18.520 --> 1:13:22.360 I mean I I had my buddy Randy Goodman who 1:13:22.439 --> 1:13:26.880 runs Sony Records, great dear friend of mine. He told me, 1:13:26.920 --> 1:13:28.920 as a matter of fact, on this this artist Cam Marlow. 1:13:28.960 --> 1:13:33.640 He said, look, don't don't don't go cookie cutter on 1:13:33.680 --> 1:13:37.480 this thing. Just make music that can that makes Cam excited. 1:13:38.000 --> 1:13:41.200 We'll deal with the rest of it. Just something. If 1:13:41.280 --> 1:13:44.080 if we need something to be pulled in for radio 1:13:44.320 --> 1:13:47.040 or whatever, we can address that at that At that time, 1:13:48.400 --> 1:13:51.920 basically chains are taken off. Just make some music, do 1:13:52.080 --> 1:13:55.680 something that's compelling, whatever the hell that is. I like 1:13:55.840 --> 1:13:59.320 that directive. That's that's that's great. Once again, in your video, 1:13:59.400 --> 1:14:02.120 I can I can see like ten guitars. How often 1:14:02.120 --> 1:14:05.000 do you play guitar as much as I can when 1:14:05.000 --> 1:14:07.680 I produced. It's really hard for me because because I 1:14:07.680 --> 1:14:10.920 am a guitar player at heart, and I just it's like, 1:14:11.520 --> 1:14:15.640 you know, my my vision goes to the guitar. The 1:14:15.680 --> 1:14:18.639 world comes through through the guitar. I ceased to listen 1:14:18.680 --> 1:14:22.760 to a singer. I forget that I'm supposed to be 1:14:22.920 --> 1:14:28.360 directing something. I do play on tracking sessions sometimes because 1:14:28.439 --> 1:14:31.680 if it's the best way that I can communicate. Um, 1:14:31.760 --> 1:14:36.120 I didn't play today or the or last Friday. Two 1:14:36.160 --> 1:14:40.479 great guitar players, uh Tom Bukavac and Chris Donegan. They 1:14:40.479 --> 1:14:44.280 were staggeringly good, and it was better for me not 1:14:44.360 --> 1:14:47.800 to play. I will over dub after the fact, um, 1:14:47.840 --> 1:14:49.680 because there's certain things that we didn't get that I 1:14:49.720 --> 1:14:52.400 know that need need to be done. And and I'm 1:14:52.400 --> 1:14:57.160 a different personality. Um a record that I just played 1:14:57.200 --> 1:14:59.639 on every one. So I like to flex those old 1:14:59.760 --> 1:15:03.760 must those if there's there's a reason for it. And 1:15:03.840 --> 1:15:07.480 the eighties are kind of coming back around Bob these days. 1:15:07.280 --> 1:15:10.320 It's it's it's something I never thought would happen. But 1:15:10.439 --> 1:15:12.559 I have some of these younger artists saying, hey, can 1:15:12.560 --> 1:15:15.640 you play some of that stuff? Yeah, well, you know 1:15:15.640 --> 1:15:18.040 I have to. Why Wight slowed down? Tell me more 1:15:18.040 --> 1:15:20.320 about the eighties coming back all of a sudden, It's 1:15:20.400 --> 1:15:23.200 like everything comes back around, right, and some of the 1:15:23.320 --> 1:15:25.960 values of the eighties. It's like, for we've been in 1:15:26.000 --> 1:15:29.600 a in a how do you describe it, It's like 1:15:29.720 --> 1:15:36.599 a harmonic and guitar drought for the last fifteen years. 1:15:36.720 --> 1:15:40.720 Right when the eighties ended. I mean it it extended 1:15:40.760 --> 1:15:48.160 far beyond maybe what was necessary and uh, you know, tasteful. 1:15:48.960 --> 1:15:51.800 It was. It was gymnastics, right. I listened to some 1:15:51.840 --> 1:15:53.320 of the stuff I played in the eighties. It's like, 1:15:53.560 --> 1:15:56.519 it's just I'm embarrassed, you know, But that was that 1:15:56.600 --> 1:16:00.240 was it, That was the culture, right, So you know, 1:16:00.320 --> 1:16:02.800 the nineties came in and and definitely dealt with that 1:16:02.880 --> 1:16:05.960 in in in in not too friendly of a way, 1:16:07.280 --> 1:16:10.840 humbled us all right, right, and and and that's evolution, 1:16:10.920 --> 1:16:14.559 and that's the way it goes. And but there's there's 1:16:14.600 --> 1:16:17.559 some there's some things about the eighties that we you know, 1:16:17.640 --> 1:16:21.439 for all honest that that still resonate, right, And there's 1:16:21.479 --> 1:16:24.799 something about that guitar thing and not just playing simple 1:16:24.880 --> 1:16:28.760 melodies and drony type things. There's about having that facility 1:16:28.800 --> 1:16:33.080 to to like a violinist, you know, flares and and 1:16:33.080 --> 1:16:36.679 and maybe an eight barcelos opposed to these freaking four 1:16:36.720 --> 1:16:39.040 barcelos that have been going around for the last ten years, 1:16:39.120 --> 1:16:41.479 you know. And so an artist that I was working with, 1:16:41.520 --> 1:16:43.400 he said, you know, I want you to play that stuff. 1:16:43.400 --> 1:16:45.960 I don't want you to and you know, so the 1:16:46.200 --> 1:16:48.320 funny thing is, you know, I don't play every day, 1:16:48.360 --> 1:16:50.599 so you know I used to play ten hours a day, right, 1:16:51.280 --> 1:16:53.640 that was that was my life. And and so you 1:16:53.720 --> 1:16:55.880 gotta work back up. It's like, yes, you know how 1:16:55.920 --> 1:16:59.519 to ride that bike, but it's not the same thing. So, yeah, 1:16:59.800 --> 1:17:01.760 I just finished some stuff. I played some cellos, and 1:17:01.800 --> 1:17:05.840 I'm pretty pretty proud of that. Are they self serving? Hill, Yes, 1:17:06.040 --> 1:17:09.320 they're totally self serving, saying yeah, I can still do 1:17:09.400 --> 1:17:13.360 this stuff. They served the music. So everybody's happy, most 1:17:13.400 --> 1:17:15.760 of which would be me at this point, just no 1:17:15.880 --> 1:17:17.519 I can do but I love it. Yeah, I love 1:17:17.560 --> 1:17:20.040 playing guitar. So you grew up in Nashville. What kind 1:17:20.040 --> 1:17:24.719 of circumstances. My dad was a string orchestrator, string arranger, 1:17:24.800 --> 1:17:27.240 so music in the family. My mother was a pianist, 1:17:27.479 --> 1:17:30.400 but she chose not to do it professionally. She had 1:17:30.400 --> 1:17:33.720 the chops. She was really good classical pianist. And I 1:17:33.720 --> 1:17:37.120 grew up in Nashville. He was involved. He started in 1:17:37.120 --> 1:17:41.240 in in He started the onset of Christian contemporary music 1:17:41.680 --> 1:17:47.040 didn't exist before those years in the seventies, and I 1:17:47.160 --> 1:17:49.280 wasn't so much interested in that as I just want 1:17:49.320 --> 1:17:51.519 to go to sessions. And I got to go with 1:17:51.560 --> 1:17:53.640 my dad when he would do rhythm sessions in the 1:17:53.720 --> 1:17:56.880 seventies and see like the great so I don't know 1:17:56.920 --> 1:17:59.120 if you know the name Reggie Young people like that 1:17:59.120 --> 1:18:02.200 that played on I mean countless hit records, legends in 1:18:02.320 --> 1:18:04.800 that and these guys would just take me under the 1:18:04.880 --> 1:18:06.479 wing and let me sit next to them and watch 1:18:06.600 --> 1:18:10.120 him play in the studio. That's all I cared about doing. 1:18:10.120 --> 1:18:11.400 I didn't want to be a rock star. I didn't 1:18:11.439 --> 1:18:13.040 want to do anything else. I just wanted to be 1:18:13.080 --> 1:18:15.759 a studio guitar player. I think since I was thirteen 1:18:15.840 --> 1:18:19.640 years old, I didn't. But when I found out what 1:18:19.880 --> 1:18:22.360 but I met David Hungate. You know that, you know 1:18:22.400 --> 1:18:29.680 the name David Huntgate, right, yeah, just base extraordinary And 1:18:29.760 --> 1:18:32.519 he he had moved to Nashville, which is I was 1:18:32.560 --> 1:18:34.960 always wonder, why are you moving to Nashville. I want 1:18:35.000 --> 1:18:37.960 to just get out at that time, and uh, this 1:18:38.200 --> 1:18:40.439 he loved it. He's a Midwestern guy and he but 1:18:40.479 --> 1:18:42.240 he told me when I was nineteen. I was playing 1:18:42.280 --> 1:18:44.160 on a record with him when I was nineteen, and 1:18:44.160 --> 1:18:46.200 he said, yeah, if you really want to make it, 1:18:46.600 --> 1:18:49.280 you know, as you really want to say you've made it, 1:18:49.320 --> 1:18:52.800 you gotta make it in l A and and uh 1:18:53.120 --> 1:18:55.080 and you know, he played in the band with a 1:18:55.160 --> 1:18:58.639 guy that influenced me so freaking much. I mean, Steve 1:18:58.720 --> 1:19:01.160 Luca there, you know, I just it's like, what can 1:19:01.200 --> 1:19:04.240 you say about how great he is. He's he's a 1:19:04.240 --> 1:19:07.080 couple of years my senior. But it's like I listened 1:19:07.120 --> 1:19:08.840 to him and I heard him play on records in 1:19:08.880 --> 1:19:11.280 the late seventies and he was, you know, teenagers like 1:19:12.040 --> 1:19:14.880 that's what I want, you know, And I saw, I 1:19:14.920 --> 1:19:17.479 saw it. Steve wrote on a vall he said, yeah, 1:19:17.560 --> 1:19:21.880 Dan copied me. Hell yeah, I copied him. Absolutely, You're 1:19:21.880 --> 1:19:23.800 gonna copy the best, right, I mean, that's how you 1:19:23.840 --> 1:19:27.240 get work. There's no there's no shame in that. It's 1:19:27.640 --> 1:19:30.920 that's what you do. And I would never embarrassed to stay. 1:19:30.920 --> 1:19:32.920 I thought he was one of the greatest of all time. 1:19:33.439 --> 1:19:36.160 You know, is period. You you can't look at Steve 1:19:36.240 --> 1:19:39.400 and go that he has not affected so many guitar 1:19:39.400 --> 1:19:42.000 plays me being that I'm on the beneficiary. I'm just 1:19:42.040 --> 1:19:44.920 glad that he quit playing sessions when he did, because 1:19:45.240 --> 1:19:49.559 it gave it was this massive like like like cavern 1:19:49.800 --> 1:19:53.040 cavernists void that that that I got to be able 1:19:53.080 --> 1:19:54.800 to step into and be a part of. I wasn't 1:19:54.800 --> 1:19:57.280 the only guy. By the way, Okay, you're growing up. 1:19:58.200 --> 1:20:00.640 How many kids in the family? Three and where are 1:20:00.640 --> 1:20:03.440 you in the hierarchy? One of the oldest and the smallest, 1:20:03.560 --> 1:20:07.120 but I'm the oldest. My brother Dave, uh, you know, 1:20:07.320 --> 1:20:09.400 if you ever listen to Giant Records, he was, uh, 1:20:09.720 --> 1:20:12.960 the drummer, and he's just great and my youngest brother. 1:20:13.160 --> 1:20:15.640 By the time it came to his he said, screw this, 1:20:15.760 --> 1:20:18.479 I'm gonna go into a different path. Too many musicians 1:20:18.479 --> 1:20:21.559 in the family, but he's very musical here for him. 1:20:21.600 --> 1:20:25.639 What was your experience going to school? Good student, bad student? Popular? 1:20:25.840 --> 1:20:27.559 I went to a sports school. I was an athlete 1:20:28.080 --> 1:20:31.680 and they had a horrible music program, and so it 1:20:31.760 --> 1:20:36.160 was always that tension. You know, great parents. I hit 1:20:36.200 --> 1:20:39.720 the Jack Pop hit lottery on that one, and they 1:20:39.920 --> 1:20:45.040 they just said, look, you know, life is about if 1:20:45.120 --> 1:20:49.120 you can't. I'll put it this way. My dad knew 1:20:49.160 --> 1:20:52.799 I was. I was a musician through and through. He 1:20:52.800 --> 1:20:55.360 he pushed me in all the other areas. He said, look, 1:20:55.400 --> 1:20:59.160 you gotta keep working on your athleticism and your academics 1:20:59.200 --> 1:21:02.400 because it's gonna fact everything at some point. You're gonna 1:21:02.439 --> 1:21:04.559 have to make a choice. If it's music, it's music. 1:21:04.600 --> 1:21:08.280 But don't don't shut those doors yet. So high school 1:21:08.320 --> 1:21:11.600 was fine. All I cared about was we had a 1:21:11.640 --> 1:21:15.080 local college here called Belmont College, which is now Belmont University. 1:21:15.080 --> 1:21:18.000 It was a big deal. I had a studio. As 1:21:18.000 --> 1:21:21.800 long as I kept my grades up. Um, my my 1:21:21.840 --> 1:21:23.559 friends at college would come over and pick me up 1:21:23.560 --> 1:21:25.439 after baseball practice and I'd go and sit in the 1:21:25.439 --> 1:21:28.040 studio there and play, you know, from midnight until six 1:21:28.080 --> 1:21:31.439 in the morning, and be just obliterated the next day 1:21:31.479 --> 1:21:33.559 for school. But as long as I kept good grades, 1:21:33.640 --> 1:21:36.880 my my parents were willing to work with me on that. 1:21:37.080 --> 1:21:38.920 And that's why I learned to be a studio musician. 1:21:39.120 --> 1:21:42.120 And you graduate from high school and then what I 1:21:42.200 --> 1:21:45.160 went to work for a on the road for a 1:21:45.200 --> 1:21:49.719 guy named Bill Gaither Bill Gaither Trio. They were Christian music. 1:21:50.600 --> 1:21:53.960 They were a trio and they were playing arenas. They 1:21:53.960 --> 1:21:56.959 were some of the best people I've ever met, continue 1:21:57.000 --> 1:22:00.519 to be to this day, absolute integrity. Not the music 1:22:00.560 --> 1:22:02.840 I wanted to do, but I was able to go. 1:22:02.880 --> 1:22:04.559 I went to school, a little bit of college up 1:22:04.560 --> 1:22:07.880 in Indiana, and I tour on the weekends and made 1:22:07.880 --> 1:22:10.759 a living that lasted about a year. Year and a half. 1:22:10.840 --> 1:22:15.719 I came back to Nashville. I went to Belmont College. 1:22:16.600 --> 1:22:19.280 I had my tuition paid for because I played in 1:22:19.280 --> 1:22:21.240 a band that you know, went out and played gigs 1:22:21.240 --> 1:22:27.559 for the college, got married one and uh moved to 1:22:27.680 --> 1:22:30.559 l A. So you never finished college about a year 1:22:30.560 --> 1:22:33.720 and a half. And what'd your parents say about that? Nothing? 1:22:34.040 --> 1:22:39.240 They didn't they they those those the doors were closing. 1:22:39.360 --> 1:22:42.120 You know, there was there was there and doors were opening, 1:22:42.160 --> 1:22:44.880 and they knew that that was the inevitable. I'm sure 1:22:44.920 --> 1:22:46.920 they would have loved it I had I got into college, 1:22:47.800 --> 1:22:50.080 you know, as as I would love for my And 1:22:50.120 --> 1:22:53.120 the funny thing is, Baba, my my youngest kid, is 1:22:53.160 --> 1:22:56.040 a touring drummer, and I was great drummer. He did 1:22:56.080 --> 1:22:58.080 the same thing to me. He a year and a 1:22:58.120 --> 1:23:00.799 half in the college. He said, Dad, you're you're wasting 1:23:00.840 --> 1:23:02.880 your money. I gotta go on the road, and I 1:23:02.960 --> 1:23:05.200 had no other answers. Yeah, you're right, you gotta go 1:23:05.240 --> 1:23:06.639 do if you gotta do it, I would I rather 1:23:07.000 --> 1:23:10.320 you have a degree. Yes, but that's just not gonna happen. 1:23:10.439 --> 1:23:12.760 How did you decide to get married so young? If 1:23:12.760 --> 1:23:16.959 you saw this woman that I met when I was thirteen, 1:23:17.080 --> 1:23:21.120 you would have gotten married at seventeen. She's my soul mate. 1:23:21.160 --> 1:23:23.320 I mean that she's beautiful. She's she she is as 1:23:23.360 --> 1:23:26.160 beautiful as inside is out. I mean that sounds like 1:23:26.160 --> 1:23:30.120 a cheap shot. Now. I loved her. I just loved her, 1:23:30.160 --> 1:23:33.240 and that was it. That just it's one of those things. 1:23:33.240 --> 1:23:35.400 And you don't always get right. I mean, you know, 1:23:35.560 --> 1:23:37.639 I mean people say, how do you keep a marriage going? 1:23:37.840 --> 1:23:40.760 There's so much luck involved here. This is but it's 1:23:40.880 --> 1:23:43.200 kindred spirit. We lucked out. We met each other and 1:23:43.240 --> 1:23:46.720 we you know, we have the same kind of view 1:23:46.760 --> 1:23:49.840 about life. Yeah, I was a kid, and she was 1:23:49.960 --> 1:23:52.920 willing to move out to l a figure that. You know. 1:23:53.720 --> 1:24:04.160 We moved out there, no promises, nothing, m So what 1:24:04.240 --> 1:24:07.400 point does the band White Heart come about? That was 1:24:07.479 --> 1:24:12.280 between college marriage and me losing moving to the West Coast. 1:24:12.840 --> 1:24:16.080 That was a Christian man and uh, you know I 1:24:16.479 --> 1:24:19.760 was raised, you know, in a very evangelical setting. My 1:24:19.880 --> 1:24:22.920 parents weren't didn't weren't heavy on the dog, but they were. 1:24:22.920 --> 1:24:27.200 They're pretty free thinkers. There was also a lot of 1:24:27.240 --> 1:24:30.200 great Christian music happening in Nashville. I mean, this was 1:24:30.240 --> 1:24:32.519 that was the cutting edge music I think in Nashville. 1:24:32.600 --> 1:24:35.680 You know. Um, when I had a chance to move 1:24:35.720 --> 1:24:42.439 to l A, I just unceremoniously quit my quit the band. 1:24:42.520 --> 1:24:44.360 You know, so I'm gone, guys, And they all thought 1:24:44.400 --> 1:24:47.160 I was, you know, moving to Sodom and Gomorrah, I guess, 1:24:47.160 --> 1:24:50.599 And but Sherry was was up and so no, I 1:24:50.600 --> 1:24:53.360 I that was it. That was that was that was mecca. 1:24:53.439 --> 1:24:56.559 It was all I wanted to do was play on records. 1:24:56.560 --> 1:24:59.280 You know. So to what degree is religion part of 1:24:59.280 --> 1:25:02.759 your life? Now, well that's a that's a large question, 1:25:02.880 --> 1:25:06.760 right religion. I don't know about religion. I mean, religions 1:25:06.920 --> 1:25:13.120 extremely important. Uh, spirituality, I'd say probably would would dominate that. Um, 1:25:13.200 --> 1:25:17.479 I borrow from a lot of different religions. Right, Well, 1:25:17.560 --> 1:25:19.640 let's put a different way. Are you a churchgoer? No, 1:25:20.720 --> 1:25:23.280 there's a value to that. I mean, it's not that 1:25:23.320 --> 1:25:26.320 I don't like church. Right now, I'm getting more from 1:25:26.320 --> 1:25:29.720 from from different authors and in different thinkers. So no, 1:25:29.800 --> 1:25:31.519 you know, there's no criticism of all that. Just when 1:25:31.520 --> 1:25:34.400 you hear someone played in a Christian band, you always 1:25:34.479 --> 1:25:36.800 ask that. But let's go back to the beginning. Was 1:25:36.840 --> 1:25:39.800 guitar your first instrument? And how did you get into 1:25:39.840 --> 1:25:42.200 playing the guitar? Can I be rude for a second, 1:25:42.560 --> 1:25:45.719 not to you, not rude, but cause just you said 1:25:45.760 --> 1:25:50.439 something that that it's just about that that that interests 1:25:50.439 --> 1:25:53.200 me that I just want to remark on. Yeah. Yeah, 1:25:53.240 --> 1:25:57.120 the thing about the thing about like like like I say, 1:25:57.680 --> 1:26:02.040 I don't relate to evangelical Christianity he especially these days 1:26:02.120 --> 1:26:08.600 from a from a political standpoint, it's it's it some 1:26:08.720 --> 1:26:13.720 of its repulsive to me. And yet the irony is 1:26:13.760 --> 1:26:16.599 that is it? Life is so complex, you know, I mean, 1:26:17.000 --> 1:26:22.360 like you don't like people that irritate me. They also 1:26:22.400 --> 1:26:26.240 have the good side, right religion, any religion. But I 1:26:26.640 --> 1:26:28.599 was raised in the in the Christian faith, I mean 1:26:28.920 --> 1:26:32.280 here in the South, the Bible Belt. So no, no 1:26:32.360 --> 1:26:35.240 surprise to that. There's things I love about it and 1:26:35.280 --> 1:26:37.160 things I hate about It's kind of like family, you know, 1:26:38.080 --> 1:26:41.640 and you and you I luckily had parents that that 1:26:41.800 --> 1:26:45.680 really we're very encouraging to not throw the baby out 1:26:45.680 --> 1:26:48.639 with the bath water, I think. And you find things 1:26:48.640 --> 1:26:52.560 in it there there that are useful, that are beautiful, 1:26:52.720 --> 1:26:54.880 and the and the some of the ugly stuff you 1:26:55.000 --> 1:26:57.479 just go, you know, whatever, you call it for what 1:26:57.600 --> 1:27:03.800 it is. And but but religion or spirituality plays a 1:27:04.520 --> 1:27:06.439 great deal in my life, plays a great deal in 1:27:06.800 --> 1:27:09.800 music because there's a balance to it all. It's you 1:27:09.880 --> 1:27:12.559 can't separate your life out. It's I'm not just a musician. 1:27:13.200 --> 1:27:15.280 I'm not just a husband. I'm not just a dad. Now, 1:27:15.320 --> 1:27:19.880 I'm not just a granddad. I'm I'm a guy who's 1:27:20.000 --> 1:27:24.479 closer to death than not. You know, right, I'm closer 1:27:24.479 --> 1:27:28.519 to diapers. We all go through it right now. This 1:27:28.600 --> 1:27:32.799 life matters, right, Do I have any certainty about another 1:27:33.400 --> 1:27:39.840 extension life? No, I don't. And but the religious components 1:27:39.840 --> 1:27:42.920 still plays something because because it talks about values and 1:27:42.960 --> 1:27:45.760 things that matter. So that's that that to me is 1:27:45.840 --> 1:27:47.640 kind of how I view all that stuff. So I 1:27:48.000 --> 1:27:50.639 it's it's not as simple of an answer of of 1:27:50.680 --> 1:27:52.800 whether I go to church or not go to church. 1:27:52.880 --> 1:27:56.960 You know, it's it's it's it's in how I view 1:27:56.960 --> 1:27:59.280 all that stuff. It's it's it's evolving too. I mean, 1:27:59.280 --> 1:28:02.120 I I'm what I hate. I'm hitting sixty two this year, 1:28:02.160 --> 1:28:04.679 so I'm not the same that I was ten years ago, 1:28:04.720 --> 1:28:07.800 twenty years ago. Certainly not when I was twenty in 1:28:07.920 --> 1:28:11.320 Los Angeles. I was this green, freaking kid who was 1:28:11.320 --> 1:28:14.479 playing rock guitar on all these records. But I was 1:28:14.520 --> 1:28:18.200 just off the boat of Christian contemporary Christian music. So 1:28:18.880 --> 1:28:22.559 can you imagine how the utter lunacy of that, you know, 1:28:22.600 --> 1:28:27.160 I'm walking into cocaine, you know, haven you know, it's like, 1:28:27.680 --> 1:28:30.240 it's just it was it's something a movie. It would 1:28:30.280 --> 1:28:32.280 be too boring a movie movie to watch, but it's 1:28:32.400 --> 1:28:35.240 it would be a great humort thirty minute humor show. 1:28:35.320 --> 1:28:39.519 So anyway, sorry, I hate to go off. Wanted to 1:28:39.560 --> 1:28:41.559 be clear. Yeah, it's just it's just all. It's all. 1:28:41.920 --> 1:28:44.320 I don't I don't have any great answers about it, 1:28:44.680 --> 1:28:47.040 but I do have a lot of patients with the 1:28:47.080 --> 1:28:51.320 process because of what I said about the inevitability my 1:28:51.360 --> 1:28:53.160 first you know, I don't I don't want to extend 1:28:53.200 --> 1:28:57.040 this too far. It's just and kind of contemporary Christian 1:28:57.120 --> 1:29:00.280 music is a big ten. Uh. It's just when someone 1:29:00.360 --> 1:29:03.160 is involved in it. You asked, what degree are they 1:29:03.200 --> 1:29:06.559 involved in the dog, which you were not. There's no 1:29:06.680 --> 1:29:10.040 prejudgment there, but when someone is probaby, because I certainly 1:29:10.040 --> 1:29:12.639 know people who were involved in it or very heavily 1:29:12.720 --> 1:29:14.720 into the dog. But but I think we've covered it. 1:29:15.080 --> 1:29:19.240 So did you start with the guitar? Yeah? That was it. 1:29:19.360 --> 1:29:22.080 I don't I have no idea why that came up, 1:29:22.280 --> 1:29:24.040 but you know what, probably because I went I was 1:29:24.080 --> 1:29:26.160 at It would have to be because of church and 1:29:26.240 --> 1:29:29.200 my dad was a at that time. Was he led 1:29:29.200 --> 1:29:31.760 the music at church, and there they'd have these folk bands, right, 1:29:32.040 --> 1:29:35.080 and the guitar. It was the guitar. So I saw 1:29:35.120 --> 1:29:37.000 these guys playing guitar, and that was it. I thought 1:29:37.040 --> 1:29:40.200 that was cool. So how I'd just start with an 1:29:40.240 --> 1:29:43.639 acoustic guitar, you know, playing chords? You know, I took 1:29:43.680 --> 1:29:47.120 down in the local music store here in Nashville. It 1:29:47.200 --> 1:29:49.679 was when I was thirteen. My dad had a friend, 1:29:49.880 --> 1:29:52.519 his name was John Darnold's a studio guitar player in 1:29:52.760 --> 1:29:57.040 Nashville and he's still a dear friend. And he came 1:29:57.080 --> 1:29:59.160 over one night gave a couple of hours of his 1:29:59.280 --> 1:30:01.840 time to a third jenior old kid showed me some 1:30:01.920 --> 1:30:05.120 scales and I was hooked. That was it. That was 1:30:05.200 --> 1:30:08.240 that was like, that's where I'm going with this whole thing. 1:30:09.240 --> 1:30:12.639 To be that good, you have to practice a whole 1:30:12.720 --> 1:30:15.000 hell of a lot. So I did. That's that's all 1:30:15.000 --> 1:30:19.680 I did. I mean literally going back to you know, 1:30:20.240 --> 1:30:24.040 my wife, Sherry. So this is it sounds very southern. 1:30:24.160 --> 1:30:25.760 I love the sounding. As I always tell people, I 1:30:25.840 --> 1:30:28.880 married my sister just just to confuse but no, Sherry. 1:30:28.880 --> 1:30:32.879 I met Sherry when we were thirteen. Right at fifteen, 1:30:32.960 --> 1:30:34.960 I was so in love with this girl. I was 1:30:35.000 --> 1:30:36.599 in love with the guitar and love with this girl. 1:30:36.640 --> 1:30:39.760 But the girl was just and my parents, actually, since 1:30:39.800 --> 1:30:42.040 I was the first kid, made me break up with her. 1:30:42.600 --> 1:30:46.000 This is beautiful, you know they were. They were just 1:30:46.040 --> 1:30:49.040 worried I'd probably get pregged at sixteen, you know, there 1:30:49.080 --> 1:30:52.439 they would that would be it, right whatever, But but yeah, 1:30:52.600 --> 1:30:55.240 it was. I would I would play ten hours a day, 1:30:55.320 --> 1:30:57.320 That's all I would do, and to the point that 1:30:57.439 --> 1:31:00.120 I would irritate my coaches would have they'd call my 1:31:00.160 --> 1:31:02.920 folks in and say, you know, what's this guy doing, 1:31:03.040 --> 1:31:07.320 you know, that was my life. I was a good 1:31:07.320 --> 1:31:10.639 picture and but I cared more about guitar. So I'd 1:31:10.640 --> 1:31:12.640 sit in my room and just and crack up my 1:31:12.680 --> 1:31:16.000 amp and play. I turned on records, you know, I remember, 1:31:16.400 --> 1:31:20.320 you know I heard Larry Carlton's first solo record. I 1:31:20.320 --> 1:31:22.840 mean these things where I was like fifteen years old, 1:31:23.160 --> 1:31:26.599 Asia by Steely Dan. I heard all those guitar solos. 1:31:26.720 --> 1:31:29.160 Is like, what else in the world is there to 1:31:29.200 --> 1:31:32.120 do but learn this stuff? Okay? What are some more 1:31:32.200 --> 1:31:36.120 of your influences? And when did you start? You wanted 1:31:36.160 --> 1:31:38.200 to be a studio musician, but did you start playing 1:31:38.240 --> 1:31:41.160 in bands? In high school? I had a friend of mine, 1:31:41.200 --> 1:31:43.800 Gordon Kennedy, who was a son of of of of 1:31:43.800 --> 1:31:48.040 Country Royalty of Jerry Kennedy. He was great producer and 1:31:48.040 --> 1:31:50.320 a great guitar players, studio guitar player in the sixties. 1:31:50.720 --> 1:31:52.880 We did little bands. We played it kind of in 1:31:52.880 --> 1:31:55.360 our high school. But that was no, it wasn't it 1:31:55.479 --> 1:31:57.320 wasn't to be a band guy. It was we would. 1:31:57.960 --> 1:32:02.000 We had a great music teacher. We had a horrible 1:32:02.080 --> 1:32:05.720 music program at this sports school, and he said, look, 1:32:05.760 --> 1:32:08.920 if you would, if you'll keep your grades up during 1:32:09.200 --> 1:32:12.720 during uh what he called study hall. You guys can 1:32:12.760 --> 1:32:14.599 take your guitars and namps to go down the hall 1:32:14.680 --> 1:32:16.120 as long as you don't make too much noise and 1:32:16.120 --> 1:32:19.200 just practice, because he knew that we needed time to 1:32:19.240 --> 1:32:21.720 do that. That's really what we did. We just we 1:32:21.840 --> 1:32:24.439 just we needle draft on records. That's all. It was 1:32:24.479 --> 1:32:26.800 when we would try to learn the latest whatever was 1:32:26.800 --> 1:32:29.400 coming out then it was it was Boston. For me, 1:32:29.439 --> 1:32:32.800 it was al Dimola Elegant Gypsy, the first record of 1:32:32.920 --> 1:32:35.160 Note that he came out with. You know, never heard 1:32:35.160 --> 1:32:40.559 a guitar player play like that. Steely Dan too, Jeff Beck, 1:32:40.680 --> 1:32:45.599 I mean wired, you know, I mean blow, blow by blow. 1:32:46.720 --> 1:32:48.599 By the time wired here, I think we were sixteen, 1:32:49.400 --> 1:32:51.639 you know. So we're just, I mean, we're just it's 1:32:51.680 --> 1:32:53.920 so rich. We're just we're learning all this stuff. And 1:32:53.920 --> 1:32:56.520 then we would play these little shows at our school assemblies. 1:32:56.560 --> 1:32:59.320 They would call him and we'd play these songs. Can 1:32:59.360 --> 1:33:02.479 you imagine the you know, thirteen year old girls listening 1:33:02.560 --> 1:33:04.960 to us play Jeff back music. You know, but we 1:33:04.920 --> 1:33:07.479 were we were so into ourselves. But that was what 1:33:07.520 --> 1:33:10.920 we did for our whole high school career. Basically it was. 1:33:11.000 --> 1:33:13.600 It was phenomenal. So when you moved to l A 1:33:13.960 --> 1:33:17.880 to be a session musician, how many connections did you 1:33:18.040 --> 1:33:20.599 have or did you just go blind? And how did 1:33:20.600 --> 1:33:24.040 you get work? Specifically? I had played on a lou 1:33:24.160 --> 1:33:26.960 Rawls record here in Nashville a friend of mine named 1:33:27.000 --> 1:33:31.719 Ronnie Hafkin, who who was famous because if he produced 1:33:31.720 --> 1:33:35.880 a band called Doctor Hook at that time, remember that right, 1:33:36.000 --> 1:33:39.880 of course cover the rolling Store Sylvia's Mother, that's it. 1:33:40.160 --> 1:33:43.800 So Ronnie always wanted young talent. He got me to 1:33:43.880 --> 1:33:48.719 play when I was probably nineteen on a Lou Rawls 1:33:48.720 --> 1:33:50.720 record he was producing in town, right, and then he 1:33:50.760 --> 1:33:54.400 went to overdubb it out in Los Angeles and there 1:33:54.479 --> 1:34:03.160 was a keyboard player slash arranger named Robbie Buchanan who 1:34:03.240 --> 1:34:05.640 heard it and inquired who the guitar player on this 1:34:05.760 --> 1:34:10.240 record was, and that was a connection. Ronnie Afkin came 1:34:10.240 --> 1:34:12.559 back to Nashville several months later and told me that 1:34:12.600 --> 1:34:16.240 this guy, Robbie Buchanan wanted to, you know, could he 1:34:16.320 --> 1:34:19.439 have my name and number. Robbie was doing all the 1:34:19.439 --> 1:34:22.200 big records at that time. This was in the early eighties, 1:34:22.200 --> 1:34:24.519 and he said you should move to to Los Angeles 1:34:24.600 --> 1:34:29.320 and it shocked me. And I think that's when I said, 1:34:29.360 --> 1:34:31.280 I don't read music that well. He said that it 1:34:31.360 --> 1:34:37.519 doesn't matter. So we just moved. We just moved. We 1:34:37.600 --> 1:34:42.000 got back to our What happened, Well, yeah, I mean, yeah, 1:34:42.080 --> 1:34:45.479 it's weird because for about a month nothing and then 1:34:45.520 --> 1:34:48.000 the phone started ringing off the hook and and one 1:34:48.040 --> 1:34:50.880 thing led to another. Well, I go back a little 1:34:50.920 --> 1:34:54.559 bit before I moved there. This was in the day 1:34:54.600 --> 1:34:57.640 and age when they had they still they had what 1:34:57.680 --> 1:35:00.240 did they call him? That people would do the hiring 1:35:00.280 --> 1:35:03.000 on sessions. I can't even remember the term, but they would. 1:35:03.360 --> 1:35:05.760 They would, They would put together rhythm sections. And I 1:35:06.120 --> 1:35:09.680 told this fellow that I that, uh, I said, just 1:35:09.680 --> 1:35:12.320 booked me in a session, like like I lived there, 1:35:12.680 --> 1:35:15.000 I'll take care of getting there, and he did. And 1:35:15.040 --> 1:35:19.120 one thing would lead to another. L A fed off 1:35:19.400 --> 1:35:21.800 young new talents. As I said, there was a void 1:35:21.880 --> 1:35:25.920 there and uh so I would. I would load all 1:35:25.960 --> 1:35:28.080 my gear onto a plane's back before they checked the 1:35:30.200 --> 1:35:32.439 luggage or any that. I I would bloat two amps, a 1:35:32.439 --> 1:35:36.719 pedal board and three guitars, pay a porter twenty bucks, 1:35:37.760 --> 1:35:39.840 ship it to l A get off the fight, rent 1:35:39.840 --> 1:35:41.240 a car, put it all in there and take it 1:35:41.280 --> 1:35:44.240 to a studio, do one session, come back to Nashville 1:35:44.280 --> 1:35:47.040 and do demo sessions. So I would probably lose a 1:35:47.120 --> 1:35:49.439 couple of thousand dollars each time. I didn't even know 1:35:49.479 --> 1:35:52.799 I could hire a cartage company and move my gear. Finally, 1:35:52.880 --> 1:35:54.600 we said this is enough of this. We moved to 1:35:54.760 --> 1:35:58.000 l A, got a session here to you know everyone 1:35:58.160 --> 1:36:01.000 you know, but but I'm I just moved to town. 1:36:01.520 --> 1:36:03.679 And then about a month or two later, the phone 1:36:03.720 --> 1:36:07.240 started ringing, and it just it was exponential. Were your networking? 1:36:07.360 --> 1:36:09.360 Were you working it? Are you just waiting for the 1:36:09.400 --> 1:36:11.879 phone to ring? And I didn't know how to network. 1:36:13.920 --> 1:36:16.360 It's it's a mystery, Bob. I mean, honest to god, 1:36:16.360 --> 1:36:18.240 I've had people ask me, and it it just it 1:36:18.280 --> 1:36:22.280 doesn't make sense. Was there a tremendous amount of luck 1:36:22.280 --> 1:36:26.719 in my career? Yes? Did I deliver every time? Yes? 1:36:26.720 --> 1:36:29.680 A d percent? And it was just it was the 1:36:29.840 --> 1:36:33.200 absolute perfect time to move to Los Angeles, to be 1:36:33.240 --> 1:36:37.120 a guitar player who had practiced all that I had practiced, 1:36:37.160 --> 1:36:41.439 who knew kind of what to play. When Steve Lucather 1:36:41.640 --> 1:36:47.719 had abdicated this key position and the world was looking 1:36:47.760 --> 1:36:51.719 for I would say, Steve Lucatherur, that's so, how many 1:36:51.800 --> 1:36:54.160 years did you do that? What was that lifestyle? Like? 1:36:54.560 --> 1:36:58.680 It was the probably end of eight two, you know? 1:36:59.560 --> 1:37:03.559 Was that sick years? Just it was usually three sessions 1:37:03.560 --> 1:37:07.479 a day, three three hour sessions, sometimes more. And it 1:37:07.720 --> 1:37:09.840 it was fast and furious, and I was I was 1:37:10.479 --> 1:37:15.000 in the fast lane right in in gawking most of 1:37:15.000 --> 1:37:17.200 the time at the people I was around. But then 1:37:17.360 --> 1:37:19.320 you get confidence and you're you're doing what you do 1:37:19.400 --> 1:37:21.000 and I, you know, I was, I was good at 1:37:21.040 --> 1:37:25.600 it and um and it was about eighty eight I 1:37:25.600 --> 1:37:29.840 would say you start to go, well, maybe there's more, 1:37:29.880 --> 1:37:32.439 you know, And that's when I started fooling around with 1:37:33.439 --> 1:37:35.680 We had a rehearsal band, I think Alan Pasqual and 1:37:35.680 --> 1:37:39.840 I had a rehearsal band with some writers. Tom Kelly 1:37:40.080 --> 1:37:42.519 was a writer and a singer, a great background singer. 1:37:43.280 --> 1:37:45.960 Denny Belfield was a bass player that was playing in it. 1:37:47.160 --> 1:37:50.360 I'm trying to think who was playing drums. I'll think 1:37:50.360 --> 1:37:52.200 of it in a minute. But it was the rehearsal 1:37:52.200 --> 1:37:53.680 it was. It was a rehearsal ban. It was on 1:37:53.720 --> 1:37:55.080 a lark. We were going to try to get a 1:37:55.120 --> 1:37:58.559 record deal right, and Mike, Oh, Mike Barrett was the drummer. 1:37:58.640 --> 1:38:01.840 That's who was Mike Barrett. And we would rehearse and 1:38:02.000 --> 1:38:04.120 rehearsal halls and we just drink some beer and and 1:38:04.120 --> 1:38:07.600 and and play and do songs and whatever. And the 1:38:07.680 --> 1:38:11.519 material was okay. But but Alan Pasqua and myself it 1:38:11.600 --> 1:38:15.840 was like, I guess, I don't remember, but it wasn't 1:38:15.840 --> 1:38:21.280 scratching an itch effectively. And we just started writing songs ourselves. 1:38:21.360 --> 1:38:24.759 And I had sung a little bit, so on some demos, 1:38:24.760 --> 1:38:28.040 I started singing and what emanated out of that was 1:38:28.160 --> 1:38:32.600 the beginning of our band Giant, and probably within a 1:38:32.720 --> 1:38:35.840 year we got signed. You know, it was bizarre, but 1:38:35.920 --> 1:38:38.600 the idea was, like all these records we were playing on, 1:38:38.640 --> 1:38:40.240 if these guys can do this, hell, we can do 1:38:40.280 --> 1:38:44.960 this too. We had no no one tell us we couldn't, 1:38:45.000 --> 1:38:46.960 so we just did. It was so it was a moonlighting. 1:38:47.160 --> 1:38:49.879 It was basically our way of having some fun before 1:38:49.920 --> 1:38:54.479 you go to the band. Any memorable session stories. Everybody 1:38:54.479 --> 1:38:56.519 always likes to know the crazy stuff. There wasn't a 1:38:56.520 --> 1:38:59.640 lot of crazy stuff because I wasn't necessarily have to 1:38:59.680 --> 1:39:03.599 be easy. Just an interesting story or any great records 1:39:03.640 --> 1:39:05.479 you played on, and maybe you didn't think they were 1:39:05.479 --> 1:39:08.760 gonna be that great or something like that. Okay, in 1:39:08.880 --> 1:39:12.160 order of your question, memorable, the first time I got 1:39:12.200 --> 1:39:16.719 asked to Michael Jackson session it was memorable only because 1:39:16.760 --> 1:39:20.400 I walked into the studios. It was at Westlake and 1:39:20.479 --> 1:39:23.000 he walked basically off the street into a into a 1:39:23.040 --> 1:39:26.360 lounge and there was this guy sitting there that looked 1:39:26.520 --> 1:39:29.960 like he looked horrible. He looked, I mean like he 1:39:30.280 --> 1:39:34.080 was a wreck. He'd been living on the streets. And 1:39:34.120 --> 1:39:37.240 I didn't realize until somebody was attending to this guy. 1:39:38.640 --> 1:39:40.960 And what I didn't realize until a few minutes later 1:39:41.040 --> 1:39:44.360 was they were taking off makeup. That's the only way 1:39:44.360 --> 1:39:47.639 he could walk around the streets, right, And so I 1:39:47.680 --> 1:39:51.240 was just asking him. I said, what it was, dumb question, 1:39:51.240 --> 1:39:52.680 Now I think about it, Why do you do this? 1:39:52.720 --> 1:39:54.760 He said, well, that's the only way I can. I 1:39:54.800 --> 1:39:57.600 can walk down the street and go shopping. So he 1:39:57.640 --> 1:40:01.639 had some Hollywood makeup artist, you know, duh. That was 1:40:01.720 --> 1:40:03.720 that was you know, that was just stuff like that. 1:40:03.760 --> 1:40:04.880 I mean, that was you know, I was a kid. 1:40:04.880 --> 1:40:07.759 It was twenty five. He was making the Bad record 1:40:07.800 --> 1:40:11.000 at that time. Any records you worked on your specifically 1:40:11.080 --> 1:40:19.840 proud of Yeah, there's one specifically um my, uh, you 1:40:19.880 --> 1:40:22.280 know it was kind of bucket list was to play 1:40:22.320 --> 1:40:25.040 for Boss Skags because I would think that those were 1:40:25.080 --> 1:40:27.880 some of the most impactful records for me from from 1:40:27.920 --> 1:40:32.360 a lot of musical standpoints. And and I got this 1:40:32.479 --> 1:40:36.320 call from Bill Schnay to play a Boss record that 1:40:36.439 --> 1:40:39.439 was like that was it, you know, And the rhythm 1:40:39.520 --> 1:40:46.120 section was Jeff ber Carroll and Marcus Miller and uh 1:40:46.360 --> 1:40:48.800 different keyboard players. I mean it was like, who's who 1:40:48.840 --> 1:40:52.160 playing on this record? And Boss asked me to write 1:40:52.200 --> 1:40:56.599 some songs for it. Right, So again I didn't have 1:40:56.640 --> 1:40:58.960 a publishing company. I didn't even you know why I 1:40:59.000 --> 1:41:02.960 wrote songs with him so I could write extended guitar solo. 1:41:03.040 --> 1:41:05.600 This is how green I was. I mean seriously, I 1:41:05.800 --> 1:41:11.400 I didn't know what publishing was probably just but I 1:41:11.520 --> 1:41:13.519 sure as hell knew how to write a section that 1:41:13.560 --> 1:41:17.919 I could blow on a solo. Right. It's just it's 1:41:17.960 --> 1:41:21.599 it's just silliness, but it's it's it's it's true. And 1:41:21.720 --> 1:41:25.120 um we did this record. Oh, Peter Wolfe was playing, 1:41:25.280 --> 1:41:28.360 you know, producer Austrian producer was playing keyboards on it. 1:41:28.439 --> 1:41:31.280 David Page would come in. There was a song that 1:41:31.360 --> 1:41:33.120 we that I had written with Bob. I wrote three 1:41:33.160 --> 1:41:36.800 songs with them, and he wanted to record us. Great, 1:41:37.280 --> 1:41:39.200 you know, he said, well, who do you want to 1:41:39.200 --> 1:41:42.519 come and play guitar on this long Steve Steve Luga there. 1:41:42.560 --> 1:41:44.519 It's like, so I get to play with my my 1:41:45.439 --> 1:41:48.000 like I'm a kid, I'm a kid in the candy store. Seriously, 1:41:48.040 --> 1:41:50.720 I just I just didn't even know what to do. 1:41:50.800 --> 1:41:53.639 I was, you know, hanging out with Jeff Breck Carroll 1:41:53.680 --> 1:41:55.800 and and just the whole thing it was. It was 1:41:55.920 --> 1:41:59.160 it was otherworldly, right, I keep checking on make sure 1:41:59.200 --> 1:42:05.280 I'm recording this. So yeah, and it was. It was 1:42:05.320 --> 1:42:08.960 in the middle of the eighties and music had changed then, 1:42:09.000 --> 1:42:11.439 and this was pretty artsy record of some cool stuff 1:42:11.439 --> 1:42:14.680 on it. And this was this was the time, like 1:42:14.800 --> 1:42:16.920 the hottest one of the hottest acts on the chart 1:42:17.040 --> 1:42:20.240 was Debbie Gibson. So that gives you kind of a perspective, right, 1:42:21.120 --> 1:42:25.240 And the label got this record and even Alan Holdsworth 1:42:25.320 --> 1:42:27.960 even played I mean, so this is this is I mean, 1:42:28.520 --> 1:42:30.760 you know, it's just it's deep and wide, right, and 1:42:31.320 --> 1:42:33.320 this is my this is the greatest thing a young 1:42:33.400 --> 1:42:37.360 guitar player could be a part of. So and I 1:42:37.360 --> 1:42:39.200 also had three songs which I got to play some 1:42:39.320 --> 1:42:43.680 pretty badass guitar solos on it. And the label rejected 1:42:43.680 --> 1:42:47.280 the record, right, they dismant on and I remember even 1:42:47.280 --> 1:42:49.600 getting called from some other producers come and redo some 1:42:49.640 --> 1:42:53.559 of the songs, and it was so ah, Sacharin, you know, 1:42:53.720 --> 1:42:58.719 just just I you know again, my my, my lens 1:42:58.760 --> 1:43:00.479 was only that of a guitar players. I was looking 1:43:00.479 --> 1:43:02.680 at the music business. I just I just it was. 1:43:02.760 --> 1:43:05.960 It was an abomination, right. The funny thing was this 1:43:06.000 --> 1:43:10.599 is this record is called Other Roads. The funny thing 1:43:10.760 --> 1:43:14.880 was that the three most uncommercial songs with the songs 1:43:14.920 --> 1:43:17.599 I would have written with bos right, they made the record, 1:43:18.040 --> 1:43:21.320 so they exist there and and to this day that 1:43:21.400 --> 1:43:23.400 was probably I would say that was one of the 1:43:23.479 --> 1:43:25.439 highlights of my whole career. I mean, of all the 1:43:25.439 --> 1:43:26.960 records I've played on a lot of a lot of 1:43:27.080 --> 1:43:29.720 big records, but that was the one that that that 1:43:29.880 --> 1:43:33.400 grabbed my heart strings. Other Roads. How did you get 1:43:33.439 --> 1:43:36.719 involved and meet Budd brag That's a little bit unclear 1:43:36.800 --> 1:43:39.639 to me. I can't remember exactly how I met him, 1:43:39.680 --> 1:43:43.200 but It was around when we submitted demos to to 1:43:43.200 --> 1:43:45.360 to to get to have a band that was signed. 1:43:45.560 --> 1:43:47.439 I think the label put me in touch with him. 1:43:47.479 --> 1:43:50.000 I think I can't remember. So you had your deal 1:43:50.080 --> 1:43:53.160 before you have the manager. I think Bud's not around it. 1:43:53.760 --> 1:43:55.840 Dispute that how do you get the deal? I think, dude, 1:43:55.880 --> 1:43:59.919 demos it's a little vague. I don't know. Well who shopped. 1:44:00.160 --> 1:44:02.200 Somebody had to go to the label say hey, this 1:44:02.240 --> 1:44:04.479 is what I have. Great. That may be the mystery. 1:44:04.479 --> 1:44:06.479 I may need to we may need to, you know, 1:44:07.080 --> 1:44:10.599 put an addendum to this. I don't remember. That's the honesty. Okay, 1:44:10.640 --> 1:44:14.720 So you get a deal with A and M, and 1:44:14.760 --> 1:44:17.559 then somehow you get put in touch with Bud Praeger. 1:44:17.640 --> 1:44:20.519 How did you decide to work with Bud? You know? Bud? Yeah, 1:44:20.560 --> 1:44:24.600 I do. That's that's a that's a load. Basically, he 1:44:24.720 --> 1:44:27.840 scared the ship out of me. And it was like 1:44:27.880 --> 1:44:30.840 the greatest challenge because on one hand he could tell 1:44:30.880 --> 1:44:34.200 you that you have the raw ability to do this 1:44:34.360 --> 1:44:38.400 and using his you know, and also basically be honest 1:44:38.400 --> 1:44:40.760 and say that you are nowhere close to your potential. 1:44:41.360 --> 1:44:45.920 That's the that's putting it in a very genteel form, right, 1:44:46.000 --> 1:44:50.200 but that's what that's what he sold. And his track 1:44:50.240 --> 1:44:55.720 record was staggering. He he was honest, I really and 1:44:55.760 --> 1:44:58.320 I really appreciate. I learned more about the record industry 1:44:58.360 --> 1:45:00.560 from Bud Prager than anybody. And I had been in 1:45:00.640 --> 1:45:03.160 the record industry as a guitar player. I didn't know 1:45:03.160 --> 1:45:08.120 anything about it. And um, yeah, he was a great friend. 1:45:08.200 --> 1:45:13.400 He was a great friend, a great mentor. Um and 1:45:13.200 --> 1:45:16.320 and and he was you know, he was just honest. 1:45:16.360 --> 1:45:17.720 You know. I mean there's certain things we were good 1:45:17.760 --> 1:45:19.559 as a band and there were things we were horrible, 1:45:19.600 --> 1:45:22.599 and he would he would identify both. You know. Okay, 1:45:22.680 --> 1:45:25.280 so you make the record. Were you happy with the album? 1:45:25.439 --> 1:45:27.240 That first record? Yeah, I thought it was pretty good. 1:45:27.439 --> 1:45:28.840 I thought it was pretty good. And you know, that 1:45:28.960 --> 1:45:31.760 was still in the in the in the A O 1:45:31.920 --> 1:45:34.160 R radio existed, and it was a it was a 1:45:34.200 --> 1:45:36.400 big thing in American. We had put out this first 1:45:36.439 --> 1:45:39.439 single and and and the first single that we put 1:45:39.439 --> 1:45:42.479 out had a minute guitar. So that started the record 1:45:42.800 --> 1:45:46.000 and they played it in its entirety. Who wouldn't love that? 1:45:46.040 --> 1:45:48.040 You know? You I drive around l A and hear 1:45:48.080 --> 1:45:49.920 that thing playing all the time, and it's like, wow, 1:45:50.160 --> 1:45:52.320 you know, yeah, we are pretty good. You know, So 1:45:52.400 --> 1:45:56.160 what was your experience trying to play rock star? You 1:45:56.200 --> 1:46:00.479 know I could. I was a pretty good singer. Um. 1:46:00.600 --> 1:46:04.880 By the way, I absolutely what you wrote, by the 1:46:04.920 --> 1:46:09.400 way you were. You're very kind in some of the 1:46:09.439 --> 1:46:13.559 descriptions about my guitar playing a musicianship, and I appreciate that. 1:46:13.920 --> 1:46:17.519 But what I really loved about what you wrote was 1:46:17.520 --> 1:46:19.519 was in the was in the area of what you're 1:46:19.560 --> 1:46:24.719 wondering whether it was because maybe the playing was really proficient, 1:46:24.800 --> 1:46:27.680 sounded really good, and you were wondering whether it was 1:46:27.800 --> 1:46:31.240 live or prerecorded. And then you said, and then Dan 1:46:31.320 --> 1:46:34.800 started singing, I busted a gun. I thought that was 1:46:34.840 --> 1:46:36.960 great because I was a good singer. You know, I 1:46:37.000 --> 1:46:39.120 was not a great singer. I had a good range 1:46:39.120 --> 1:46:41.559 and I was convincing. But wait, wait, wait, wait, Just 1:46:41.720 --> 1:46:45.040 to be clear, this is a big thing, like with 1:46:45.080 --> 1:46:48.519 the super Bowl. Whatever about people? Are people lip sinking 1:46:48.600 --> 1:46:52.759 or not? And I will tell you, in my particular world, 1:46:53.400 --> 1:46:57.120 if I say something is live and the expert's way in, 1:46:58.000 --> 1:47:01.160 they'll crucify me. Oh yeah, yeah, if I'm wrong, okay, 1:47:01.240 --> 1:47:04.400 But no, you were. You were so correct. It is 1:47:04.439 --> 1:47:06.880 a live vocal. I don't care who you are. A 1:47:06.920 --> 1:47:10.360 live vocal is gonna sound live. Okay. Well but okay, 1:47:10.400 --> 1:47:12.640 so so that was the contract. I didn't mean it 1:47:12.840 --> 1:47:15.120 as a point. I didn't. I can't. I'm not saying 1:47:15.160 --> 1:47:19.600 you're I didn't mean it as a putdown whatsoever, not whatsoever. 1:47:19.680 --> 1:47:22.160 It's just the guitar part was so faithful, to the 1:47:22.680 --> 1:47:24.080 point I heard it the first time, I thought it 1:47:24.120 --> 1:47:26.240 was live, and then the next time I was gonna 1:47:26.280 --> 1:47:28.200 write about it, well, I really better listen to see 1:47:28.240 --> 1:47:30.719 if it is live, and I'm listening to guitar part whatever, 1:47:30.760 --> 1:47:33.200 and then you're saying, okay, that's a live vocal. I 1:47:33.240 --> 1:47:35.519 didn't think there's anything wrong with it. Okay, Well, okay, 1:47:35.600 --> 1:47:37.439 thank you, and I take that point. Let's just say 1:47:37.439 --> 1:47:40.280 I'm a better guitar player than singer. So but that 1:47:40.400 --> 1:47:42.920 was okay. But as I say, that was not my 1:47:43.080 --> 1:47:46.800 meeting at all. Well, okay, okay, I appreciate that. But 1:47:47.000 --> 1:47:51.240 I almost liked it better when I interpreted the other way. 1:47:51.280 --> 1:47:54.120 But but yeah, we we did it. We did a record, 1:47:54.600 --> 1:47:57.000 you know. We started it in Los Angeles and and 1:47:57.240 --> 1:48:00.280 we three songs into it, we decided to moved to 1:48:00.400 --> 1:48:03.280 England and get away from our culture in l A. 1:48:03.760 --> 1:48:05.519 And it was the best decision. We worked with a 1:48:05.640 --> 1:48:09.200 wonderful producer named Terry Thomas, British producer. That's what a 1:48:09.240 --> 1:48:11.960 Bud's go to go to people. Yeah, and it was 1:48:12.000 --> 1:48:16.960 in the Van Charlie. Yeah, and you know it was great. 1:48:17.360 --> 1:48:20.439 Answer to your question about rock star, I was. I 1:48:20.640 --> 1:48:23.560 was not a rock star. That was the thing. And 1:48:23.680 --> 1:48:26.759 I think that was very Bud was very painfully aware 1:48:26.960 --> 1:48:30.800 of that because how I mean, come on, you're you're 1:48:30.840 --> 1:48:33.040 talking to me. I'm not a rock star. It's just 1:48:33.439 --> 1:48:35.280 to be a rock star, you gotta be a rock star. 1:48:35.360 --> 1:48:39.720 I'm a musician, right, I could sing, we played really good, um, 1:48:41.600 --> 1:48:44.280 but to be a rock star that's a different thing. 1:48:44.560 --> 1:48:48.320 And I would find myself playing gigs and you know, 1:48:49.920 --> 1:48:53.160 I'm thinking about guitar parts, I'm thinking about books that 1:48:53.280 --> 1:48:55.720 I'm reading, and I thought, and I'd be thinking at 1:48:55.760 --> 1:48:58.200 the same time, I'm so not a rock star. I've 1:48:58.240 --> 1:49:01.400 been around rock stars. I know what a rock star 1:49:01.560 --> 1:49:05.639 does and I'm not that that ringleader that that. I'm 1:49:05.680 --> 1:49:09.719 not a big personality who who just dominates an arena 1:49:09.960 --> 1:49:11.880 or a you know a stadium that that wasn't me. 1:49:12.080 --> 1:49:14.680 So I knew it. I was self aware enough to 1:49:15.080 --> 1:49:18.640 know that. But our music was pretty good. So so 1:49:19.600 --> 1:49:22.200 we kind of floated on that for a while. Going 1:49:22.280 --> 1:49:25.560 to record number two, things were changing a bit, and 1:49:25.760 --> 1:49:28.120 I'll never forget we kind of pretty good record the 1:49:28.160 --> 1:49:29.840 second one. It wasn't as good as the first one, 1:49:29.880 --> 1:49:33.160 I don't think, but I'll never forget. We were mastering 1:49:33.240 --> 1:49:36.600 in in and uh, finalizing the record or mixing it 1:49:36.600 --> 1:49:38.240 in New York, and I'll never forget. We're up in 1:49:38.280 --> 1:49:41.680 the Sony building and uh, I saw a video of 1:49:41.960 --> 1:49:46.720 even Flow, right Eddie Vetter climbing on that whatever, that 1:49:46.800 --> 1:49:49.880 little theater, and I thought, that's the end right there, right, 1:49:50.080 --> 1:49:56.920 I never forget that because that is very captivating, that's compelling, 1:49:57.439 --> 1:49:59.920 and that ain't me. I'm just telling you right there, 1:50:00.720 --> 1:50:03.439 that dude is not me. I got a lot of 1:50:03.479 --> 1:50:05.080 good things about I mean, and I'm not. It's not 1:50:05.200 --> 1:50:08.520 like I'm saying that. It's this is not about self deprecating. 1:50:08.600 --> 1:50:11.800 This is I would want to watch that way more 1:50:11.880 --> 1:50:14.920 than anything else. That's that's the difference, you know. So 1:50:15.080 --> 1:50:17.400 I didn't grow up wanting to be a rock star. 1:50:17.640 --> 1:50:22.040 I didn't study everything about the great rock stars. You know, 1:50:23.880 --> 1:50:26.080 Steven Tyler came to Nashville a couple of years ago. 1:50:26.120 --> 1:50:27.760 We were doing a record in this room, you know, 1:50:27.840 --> 1:50:31.439 we were in that's a rock star. Oh yeah, He's 1:50:31.479 --> 1:50:34.400 one of the few who literally lives up to the legend. 1:50:34.640 --> 1:50:38.479 Most are disappointing, but not He's a rock star. Whether 1:50:38.560 --> 1:50:41.880 he's on stage or he's sitting there in room, that's 1:50:41.880 --> 1:50:46.080 a rock star. So so I was not that, And 1:50:46.200 --> 1:50:48.879 so you learned this stuff, you know. I didn't realize 1:50:48.920 --> 1:50:50.639 that all the stuff that I was going through though, 1:50:51.400 --> 1:50:53.640 it's it leads you, life leads you, right, you know, 1:50:53.720 --> 1:50:55.400 and all of a sudden you end up. I did 1:50:55.560 --> 1:50:59.920 learn about living on the edge week to week. Why 1:51:00.080 --> 1:51:02.439 cheeking your record on the chart, you know, and the 1:51:02.680 --> 1:51:07.040 the just what that takes out of you emotionally, you 1:51:07.120 --> 1:51:11.920 know it. It's tough being an artist, right, an artist 1:51:11.960 --> 1:51:14.840 whatever you want to an entertainer, because it's based on 1:51:15.120 --> 1:51:19.639 do they like me? Right, musician. It's just if you're 1:51:19.680 --> 1:51:22.600 freaking good at what you do, you're gonna find a 1:51:22.640 --> 1:51:26.160 place to plug in. When you're an entertainer, artist, whatever 1:51:27.160 --> 1:51:29.600 you get there, there's a there's a lifespan to what 1:51:29.800 --> 1:51:33.519 you do, and those gray hairs start coming, those pounds 1:51:33.560 --> 1:51:36.479 start coming on. There's someone coming up quickly and you're 1:51:36.479 --> 1:51:39.439 gonna get your ask replaced. That's a tough place to be, 1:51:39.640 --> 1:51:45.559 you know. And people complain about how insulated performers are, 1:51:45.960 --> 1:51:49.519 you know, how how self center they are. That's the 1:51:49.560 --> 1:51:52.160 only way to survive that world. So I learned a 1:51:52.280 --> 1:51:55.400 hell of a lot about what I would be dealing 1:51:55.439 --> 1:51:57.360 with later in life. I had no idea that I 1:51:57.479 --> 1:51:59.840 was going to school. Basically during that time, Giant was 1:52:00.120 --> 1:52:04.080 best school. Of course, Bud God Rest his soul, you know, 1:52:04.360 --> 1:52:06.240 I mean, because basically I'm saying he was the best 1:52:06.280 --> 1:52:09.599 headmaster I ever had. He would hate that. So how 1:52:09.640 --> 1:52:12.160 did it end? With a whimper? We were over touring 1:52:12.240 --> 1:52:14.080 and I think it was ninety one over in Europe 1:52:14.080 --> 1:52:15.519 and it was just you could just you could just 1:52:15.640 --> 1:52:17.600 feel the winds that change. Man, it was just it 1:52:17.760 --> 1:52:20.960 was that arrow was over. It was over. You could 1:52:21.000 --> 1:52:23.160 sense it in the room we were playing. We're playing 1:52:23.240 --> 1:52:25.240 good venues, you know, and people would come out, but 1:52:25.439 --> 1:52:27.360 it was it wasn't the thing, you know, the thing. 1:52:27.439 --> 1:52:30.720 We were all turning our our heads to were you know, 1:52:30.920 --> 1:52:32.720 it was all of a sudden. It was you know, 1:52:32.840 --> 1:52:35.200 these new bands that were coming coming out and and 1:52:35.720 --> 1:52:37.960 and that was the that was the winds of change. 1:52:38.800 --> 1:52:41.919 And you could say whatever you want if you're half perceptive, 1:52:41.960 --> 1:52:43.880 you knew that was what was going to happen. You know, 1:52:44.320 --> 1:52:46.680 So you come back from Europe, everybody goes through a 1:52:46.680 --> 1:52:49.439 separate way. That's it pretty much. Yeah, that was it, 1:52:50.000 --> 1:52:52.400 you know, I mean there was a culture change, and 1:52:52.680 --> 1:52:54.200 I mean it happened over the course of what a 1:52:54.320 --> 1:52:57.280 year or so, right, but right, it was pretty quick though. 1:52:57.680 --> 1:53:01.559 I mean Kurt Cobain and and crew Man they were 1:53:01.600 --> 1:53:05.000 they talked about a wrecking crew. That was it. Talk 1:53:05.040 --> 1:53:08.200 about the eighties what with what records were They spent 1:53:08.320 --> 1:53:10.080 three quarters of a million dollars on a record to 1:53:10.080 --> 1:53:12.320 see if they got a hit. They were making records 1:53:12.400 --> 1:53:16.200 up in Seattle for eighty thou dollars and they were 1:53:16.320 --> 1:53:19.760 great records. You know, you could sense where everybody was 1:53:19.760 --> 1:53:22.720 going to record companies. You know, it's just in in 1:53:23.040 --> 1:53:25.120 in rock and roll. If if rock and roll is 1:53:25.160 --> 1:53:29.240 not offending somebody, you got problems. And by the end 1:53:29.280 --> 1:53:32.479 of the eighties, it was it was a corporate gesture, right, yeah, 1:53:32.520 --> 1:53:35.600 the air bands, etcetera. Was there anybody involved but or 1:53:35.640 --> 1:53:38.240 the other members wanted to keep going? Yeah, I mean, 1:53:38.439 --> 1:53:40.920 you know, I mean they're still making some records. By 1:53:40.960 --> 1:53:45.120 the way, Europe has got this insatiable appetite for eighties music. 1:53:45.320 --> 1:53:49.679 Right there, there's my brother and Mike Brgner Delo. Mike 1:53:50.040 --> 1:53:53.559 is great bass player, great friend. They're they're still making 1:53:53.920 --> 1:53:57.080 giant records. They have, they have you know, different guitar 1:53:57.160 --> 1:54:00.200 players and different singers, and they're still doing stuff. You know. 1:54:00.320 --> 1:54:02.559 They I don't know if they'll ever want a tour. 1:54:02.720 --> 1:54:05.360 I doubt they'll ever go tour. But no, I mean 1:54:05.560 --> 1:54:08.439 after our second record, no, it was it was like, nah, 1:54:09.560 --> 1:54:13.479 time to pack it up. Okay, So how depressed were 1:54:13.560 --> 1:54:15.680 you about that and how did you pick yourself up 1:54:15.680 --> 1:54:17.920 and make your next move. I don't remember being depressed 1:54:17.960 --> 1:54:20.240 at all. It was like, this is a reality. I 1:54:20.320 --> 1:54:23.080 got kids to raise, you know, and luckily for me, 1:54:23.800 --> 1:54:26.160 I hadn't severed, you know. I there was a bit 1:54:26.200 --> 1:54:30.840 of cache that I that I had with my recording career, 1:54:31.040 --> 1:54:33.960 and Nashville was ripe at that time to want to 1:54:34.040 --> 1:54:36.600 capitalize on that. They wanted something different. I was different 1:54:36.680 --> 1:54:41.120 because I wasn't from here in their eyes, so it 1:54:41.320 --> 1:54:45.120 really didn't change things. You know, I never I never 1:54:45.200 --> 1:54:47.280 stopped being a session I guess what it is, Bob. 1:54:48.120 --> 1:54:50.240 In some respect, I don't think I ever quit beat 1:54:50.280 --> 1:54:52.000 a session player. I think I kept my day game. 1:54:52.240 --> 1:54:55.040 So even when you were enjoying you would play gigs, yes, 1:54:55.160 --> 1:54:57.800 when I could, Yeah, And and you know what I mean. 1:54:57.920 --> 1:54:59.600 And you could look at that and say, well, you 1:54:59.720 --> 1:55:02.240 never were a percent And you know, I think I 1:55:02.320 --> 1:55:05.720 was a realist and I and I don't know, to 1:55:05.840 --> 1:55:08.320 some degree, I think that would be true. I don't 1:55:08.400 --> 1:55:11.360 think that I knew that, but I think if I 1:55:11.440 --> 1:55:14.440 don't think I knew that on on the surface level, 1:55:14.480 --> 1:55:17.800 I think intuitively, I think I had this gut feeling 1:55:17.920 --> 1:55:22.160 like this may not happen, so I didn't cut ties 1:55:22.240 --> 1:55:25.520 with everything. The two top producers in Nashville are you 1:55:25.920 --> 1:55:29.400 and Dave Cobb. Dave Cobb makes a completely different type 1:55:29.440 --> 1:55:31.879 of record. What do you think about Dave and his records? 1:55:32.200 --> 1:55:35.480 Jake and also mentioned Jay Joyce and Joey Moy. You 1:55:35.560 --> 1:55:39.080 gotta mention those guys are their beasts too? Um now, 1:55:39.120 --> 1:55:46.840 I mean, but Dave Cobb oh, lovely and great. Dave does. 1:55:48.560 --> 1:55:51.200 Dave does what I mean, it's just it's totally organic 1:55:51.280 --> 1:55:56.480 music right at a top level. I mean I do 1:55:56.720 --> 1:56:00.760 more of a mixed bag, I think. I think I 1:56:00.800 --> 1:56:04.040 would love to do that also, But what people call 1:56:04.160 --> 1:56:07.680 me for is is more of integration into pop music 1:56:07.920 --> 1:56:10.360 and and then also into rock music. A lot of 1:56:10.400 --> 1:56:13.240 people like to tap into that rock side. So it's, um, 1:56:14.400 --> 1:56:16.960 we always want what we're not, right. So I I 1:56:17.280 --> 1:56:19.800 listened to Dave's records, and I listened to I listened 1:56:19.840 --> 1:56:22.400 to Jay's records, and I said Joey's records, and it's 1:56:22.400 --> 1:56:24.600 always they always sound better than mine. I hate that. 1:56:25.240 --> 1:56:28.080 I freaking hate that. But I think we all do that. 1:56:28.200 --> 1:56:30.160 I think it's just, you know, it's what you're not. 1:56:30.360 --> 1:56:32.680 When somebody makes a cup of coffee, they it tastes 1:56:32.720 --> 1:56:35.600 better than the way I make coffee. I guess it 1:56:35.720 --> 1:56:39.680 just maybe it signifies you want to grow. So yeah, 1:56:39.800 --> 1:56:44.280 Dave's brought a a different sensibility into this town. The 1:56:44.360 --> 1:56:48.120 way he makes records, he's he just he's just his 1:56:48.240 --> 1:56:51.720 own thing. I wish his producers, I wish we could 1:56:51.760 --> 1:56:54.000 hang around each other a little bit more. We're all 1:56:54.320 --> 1:56:57.880 busy enough to where we can. But I would love 1:56:58.200 --> 1:57:00.280 like when I used to play sessions, I got to 1:57:00.320 --> 1:57:04.200 see all these great producers work. Right, when you're a producer, 1:57:04.280 --> 1:57:07.960 you don't get that luxury. You're isolated. So yeah, what 1:57:08.080 --> 1:57:10.920 i'd like to see and I you know, I mean 1:57:12.040 --> 1:57:14.360 steal some of their ideas. Heck, yeah, I would love 1:57:14.440 --> 1:57:16.200 to do that. Okay, if you look at the big 1:57:16.360 --> 1:57:20.320 rock producers, they had their era, and they were done, 1:57:21.280 --> 1:57:24.720 and they were done long before your age. So to 1:57:24.840 --> 1:57:28.480 what degree when you work are you conscious of, well, 1:57:28.560 --> 1:57:30.839 you know, I gotta have a certain level of successor 1:57:30.920 --> 1:57:33.480 they're not gonna call me anymore. Yeah, I mean it's 1:57:33.720 --> 1:57:38.240 you live in abject terror, you know, if you're honest 1:57:38.280 --> 1:57:43.040 with yourself. Yeah, I'm I'm My expiration date was long 1:57:43.160 --> 1:57:47.760 time ago. This is a this is a really pertinent though. 1:57:50.000 --> 1:57:53.320 I think it was six years ago. I'll use the 1:57:53.440 --> 1:57:57.320 sports metaphors, but for me, it's easy baseball, right, you know, 1:57:57.360 --> 1:57:59.720 you're getting older and and and all of a sudden 1:58:00.120 --> 1:58:02.920 just seemed like they're coming in faster, and and it's 1:58:02.960 --> 1:58:05.400 not necessarily they are coming in faster. It's just that 1:58:06.040 --> 1:58:10.040 you know, gravity time, your reflexes slow down, things seem faster, 1:58:10.680 --> 1:58:14.000 and that's how music was starting to hit me, certainly 1:58:14.720 --> 1:58:18.400 six seven years ago, and uh, I had an artist. 1:58:19.400 --> 1:58:22.880 His name was Thomas Rhett. He was he was kind 1:58:22.880 --> 1:58:27.560 of shooting up like a meteor, really fresh ideas, a 1:58:27.600 --> 1:58:30.200 great guy, good songwriter, great songwriter, a matter of fact, 1:58:30.320 --> 1:58:34.080 prolific songwriter. He came over to my house and said, 1:58:34.160 --> 1:58:37.480 I'd like you to this is six years ago, seven 1:58:37.560 --> 1:58:40.360 years ago at the tops. That could be part of producing, 1:58:40.400 --> 1:58:43.240 but I'd like you to co produce with this producer, 1:58:43.360 --> 1:58:51.200 Jesse Fraser. Jesse's a DJ originally a songwriter, great production ideas, 1:58:51.520 --> 1:58:54.040 totally opposite for mine. He's he's all in the box, 1:58:54.160 --> 1:58:57.840 he he he draws music, you know. And I heard 1:58:57.880 --> 1:58:59.240 some of their demos. I said, well, why do you 1:58:59.320 --> 1:59:04.360 need me? And and and they they you And when 1:59:04.360 --> 1:59:07.080 I heard their demos, this is funny too. You love 1:59:07.160 --> 1:59:10.120 this background singer on a lot of the demos was 1:59:10.200 --> 1:59:14.000 Chris Stapleton. How you like that? Phenomenal? How the world 1:59:14.120 --> 1:59:18.160 goes so so? And truly I was being honest, I said, 1:59:18.160 --> 1:59:19.680 why don't need me? And it's just you know just 1:59:19.760 --> 1:59:24.560 that basically we just what you bring, who you are 1:59:24.600 --> 1:59:27.080 as a musician, just come and jump on the ship. 1:59:28.240 --> 1:59:31.080 I said, sure. I talked to my wife that night 1:59:31.160 --> 1:59:34.680 and I canna be honest with her, and I said, 1:59:34.720 --> 1:59:37.120 you know, I'm just this is I think I was 1:59:37.240 --> 1:59:40.040 mid fifties and and and I said, you know, because 1:59:40.080 --> 1:59:41.960 I'm feeling like, you know, maybe I should step out 1:59:41.960 --> 1:59:44.000 of this thing and just retire. You know, it's been 1:59:44.040 --> 1:59:47.280 good to me. I was trying to learn all the 1:59:47.360 --> 1:59:50.280 new technology, everything, just the way people did records, and 1:59:50.320 --> 1:59:53.320 it was it was overwhelming. And I found like I 1:59:53.440 --> 1:59:57.360 reached a saturation point and and you know, fear, you 1:59:57.400 --> 1:59:59.760 all of a sudden you become very vulnerable. And you 1:59:59.840 --> 2:00:02.360 know you're used to being in alpha, right, It's like 2:00:02.440 --> 2:00:04.760 you know everything, and all of a sudden you realizing 2:00:04.840 --> 2:00:09.280 your mortality here musically speaking. And and she and Sherry 2:00:09.360 --> 2:00:11.800 just said, she said, why don't she just be you? Dan, 2:00:11.960 --> 2:00:14.480 Why don't you quit trying to be what you're not? 2:00:15.960 --> 2:00:19.000 So simple? But it was like I I was so 2:00:19.240 --> 2:00:21.360 looking in every other direction, and I thought, well, yeah, 2:00:21.480 --> 2:00:23.720 it sounds like a good idea. So I started that. 2:00:24.840 --> 2:00:30.680 I started that started to try to enact that in 2:00:30.760 --> 2:00:33.240 the way that I made music that time and I 2:00:33.440 --> 2:00:36.960 and I tried to be open when I didn't know something. 2:00:37.680 --> 2:00:42.040 I also tried not to be the center. And and 2:00:42.240 --> 2:00:48.000 so this co production venture with with Jesse Frasier basically 2:00:48.800 --> 2:00:52.880 revived me musically and it was like, oh, I can 2:00:53.040 --> 2:00:57.480 make music again with another generation. This is a lot 2:00:57.520 --> 2:01:02.400 of times around the track it can be valid and 2:01:02.560 --> 2:01:05.360 not only can I contribute, but now I can also learn. 2:01:05.960 --> 2:01:09.560 But it requires a different uh ego status And I 2:01:09.640 --> 2:01:12.240 can't be the alpha at all times. I can be sometimes, 2:01:12.320 --> 2:01:14.880 I mean, but but not all the time. And and 2:01:14.960 --> 2:01:16.919 it was it's all. It was a whole new discipline 2:01:16.960 --> 2:01:20.120 for me, and and not not automatic. I will say 2:01:20.160 --> 2:01:24.040 that it was some bumps and and if I'm honest, 2:01:24.160 --> 2:01:27.520 there's still some bumps. It's it's it's it's tough. You know, 2:01:27.600 --> 2:01:31.200 when you're successful, you want to be that person, you know, 2:01:31.440 --> 2:01:35.360 and and uh, but I think it's it's it's it's 2:01:35.400 --> 2:01:38.240 been the thing that's kept. It's like the extra lives 2:01:38.280 --> 2:01:40.600 and on a you know, pac Man video game, right, 2:01:40.680 --> 2:01:45.640 there's there's the old reference and and it's that humbling 2:01:45.760 --> 2:01:48.960 thing of of going for a full circle. You see 2:01:49.320 --> 2:01:51.920 music not only through your lens through the years you've 2:01:51.960 --> 2:01:54.160 been lucky to experience it, but you also realize that 2:01:54.240 --> 2:01:56.800 you don't own it. You that it's owned by all 2:01:57.040 --> 2:01:59.800 and and you realize that that there are eighteen year 2:01:59.800 --> 2:02:03.680 old are coming up that have as much skin in 2:02:03.720 --> 2:02:07.960 the game as you do. And either you allow yourself 2:02:08.040 --> 2:02:11.880 to listen to that fully open minded without this well 2:02:12.160 --> 2:02:14.720 look kid, oh here's how when it goes in my day, 2:02:15.160 --> 2:02:17.000 that's the that's the beginning of the end for you. 2:02:17.240 --> 2:02:19.080 So I I learned that, you know. So it's a 2:02:19.120 --> 2:02:21.880 balancing act every day. And sometimes I'll be honest, I 2:02:22.080 --> 2:02:24.640 I come home and I you know, I have I 2:02:24.680 --> 2:02:28.240 struggle with it, you know, because I struggle with being 2:02:28.360 --> 2:02:31.520 in control, and I struggle with also the fact that, 2:02:31.960 --> 2:02:35.200 if I'm honest, some of this stuff is just absolutely 2:02:35.240 --> 2:02:38.120 new to me, and I can't believe that I can't 2:02:38.160 --> 2:02:42.240 see it, you know, it's like God. So either I 2:02:42.320 --> 2:02:46.000 go I've learned something today that's that's fantastic, or I'm 2:02:46.080 --> 2:02:49.240 just a little bit more not just humbled, but but 2:02:49.560 --> 2:02:51.880 but frightened by the fact that I don't know all 2:02:51.920 --> 2:02:54.200 this stuff coming at me. So I don't know if 2:02:54.240 --> 2:02:55.920 that's an answer to what you're what you're saying, but 2:02:55.960 --> 2:02:57.960 that's a great answer. But can you tell me a 2:02:58.040 --> 2:03:02.240 couple of things you know that you didn't, weren't aware of, 2:03:02.400 --> 2:03:04.640 or that you learned in this change in the last 2:03:04.720 --> 2:03:09.160 six years. Well, I mean starting with one, that that 2:03:09.880 --> 2:03:12.600 that my insights are valid still to this day. That's 2:03:12.600 --> 2:03:14.680 a that was a big one. That In other words, 2:03:14.960 --> 2:03:17.240 the stuff we were talking about a while ago, about 2:03:17.240 --> 2:03:22.600 the seventies and in the eighties, that stuff. New musicians 2:03:22.640 --> 2:03:25.080 are hungry to have access to some of that stuff, 2:03:25.120 --> 2:03:28.600 and they want people who were there. It's not just uh, 2:03:29.000 --> 2:03:32.960 exercise and history. They wanted to talk to people and 2:03:33.160 --> 2:03:39.080 experience those insights. Okay, that's one thing. But the stuff 2:03:39.120 --> 2:03:41.840 that was that was that was frightening, frightening to me 2:03:42.000 --> 2:03:46.320 was the technology. How you know, we all hit our 2:03:46.400 --> 2:03:50.920 threshold of what we're able to do technologically, um just 2:03:51.200 --> 2:03:55.800 even just even down to something simple like samples, programming, 2:03:55.880 --> 2:03:58.640 all these things you watch You watch some of these 2:03:58.720 --> 2:04:03.320 young musicians on a laptop, and the speed with which 2:04:03.400 --> 2:04:06.600 they can process stuff is it is foreign to me. 2:04:07.880 --> 2:04:11.040 And when you try to learn that you're learning it 2:04:13.040 --> 2:04:15.320 it's like you're an old dude. That's all. That's what's 2:04:15.360 --> 2:04:18.280 just really what it is, right, So you have to say, 2:04:18.680 --> 2:04:20.480 you know, either I'm gonna spend all my time trying 2:04:20.520 --> 2:04:23.000 to learn something that somebody's gonna be much more intuitive 2:04:23.040 --> 2:04:25.800 than I am at, or you can just go, I'm 2:04:25.800 --> 2:04:28.640 gonna collaborate with you. You do that and I'll do this. 2:04:30.680 --> 2:04:33.080 Jesse Frasier was great on the I mean what he 2:04:33.120 --> 2:04:35.560 could do on a laptop and drawing stuff. He didn't 2:04:35.560 --> 2:04:38.160 even know what the chords were called. The music he's 2:04:38.200 --> 2:04:42.560 making is phenomenal. I can also play put a guitar 2:04:42.640 --> 2:04:44.080 and he and he doesn't know how to do that. 2:04:45.120 --> 2:04:48.320 It's collaboration, That's what it is. What are a couple 2:04:48.360 --> 2:04:51.600 of records from the last five ten years that you 2:04:51.640 --> 2:04:55.080 were not involved with that you think are great? Well? 2:04:55.320 --> 2:04:57.400 You mentioned Dave Cobb. I mean I love his Chris 2:04:57.640 --> 2:05:00.200 Chris stable Ts. I mean, let's just talk regional here. 2:05:00.240 --> 2:05:03.560 I mean Nashville. Is that is that? Okay? Yeah? I 2:05:03.600 --> 2:05:06.320 mean yeah, because it's just that's what I meant, because 2:05:06.320 --> 2:05:09.000 I would love to mention Silk Sonic. I love that 2:05:09.680 --> 2:05:12.480 new stuff. Okay, the Silk Sonic, let's go into that. 2:05:12.920 --> 2:05:16.880 I don't think the material is as good as the execution. Yeah, 2:05:16.920 --> 2:05:19.000 I mean first at first, blessed. I mean it's just 2:05:19.080 --> 2:05:22.960 you're just listening to to to to these guys pay 2:05:23.040 --> 2:05:25.760 homage to to the grades of soul, I mean, and 2:05:25.840 --> 2:05:28.560 they do it. I'm not even care Again, this is 2:05:28.600 --> 2:05:30.640 a musician. I don't give a shit about the material 2:05:30.680 --> 2:05:33.520 at that point. I just care about the sound. You know, well, 2:05:33.560 --> 2:05:36.600 definitely the sound is there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know. 2:05:36.720 --> 2:05:39.520 I mean like in like in Okay, in Nashville, since 2:05:39.560 --> 2:05:44.560 we're just local here right mentioned Dave's records. Jay Joyce, 2:05:44.840 --> 2:05:47.360 I mean some of some of those Brothers Osborne records, 2:05:47.680 --> 2:05:51.080 some of the Eric Church records. I mean, Jay comes 2:05:51.120 --> 2:05:53.120 from a different plan too. He's a real indie kind 2:05:53.160 --> 2:05:57.160 of music maker. I just I love everything he does. 2:05:57.320 --> 2:05:59.240 I just I turn it up. That's when I when 2:05:59.240 --> 2:06:00.720 I hear it, it's like it was on the radio 2:06:00.840 --> 2:06:03.600 or if I'm streaming it, I just listen because I 2:06:03.760 --> 2:06:06.600 like the way he processes music. There's a there's a 2:06:09.280 --> 2:06:15.560 simplicity and almost a kind of a cold hard indifference 2:06:15.680 --> 2:06:19.480 sometimes to his music that is so appealing to me. 2:06:19.720 --> 2:06:24.240 You know, like he's not needy, it's it's gotta fuck 2:06:24.320 --> 2:06:28.480 you attitude, and that's not something that I have. I'm 2:06:28.520 --> 2:06:31.640 a little more like you like it. You know, Jay 2:06:31.760 --> 2:06:36.960 makes records that that really appealed to me. Um, yeah, 2:06:38.040 --> 2:06:40.680 those are records that I really like. Um and pretty 2:06:40.760 --> 2:06:43.600 much across the board, I will say that I don't 2:06:43.600 --> 2:06:45.200 even know Jay that well, but I just I'm a 2:06:45.320 --> 2:06:51.360 I'm a fan. I just think he's great. Um. I 2:06:51.480 --> 2:06:55.440 mentioned I'm trying to think like Joey Joey Moyd. You know, 2:06:55.560 --> 2:06:57.880 you know Joey have you ever talked to him? Never 2:06:57.960 --> 2:07:00.640 talked to him? Canadian Music Acre, you know, he and 2:07:00.720 --> 2:07:04.080 he came through the Mutt, He came through the God. 2:07:04.520 --> 2:07:08.200 Now I'm this is this is the a A r 2:07:08.320 --> 2:07:12.400 P forgetting names of bands, right, I hate this ship? Um, 2:07:13.400 --> 2:07:17.520 Canadian nickelback. There you go. He came through that camp. 2:07:17.640 --> 2:07:20.720 That's a pretty tough camp. Right. They made some hardcore 2:07:21.160 --> 2:07:23.520 commercial rock records, you know, and Mutt actually made a 2:07:23.560 --> 2:07:27.640 record with them. Right. But Joey came through that camp 2:07:28.240 --> 2:07:32.680 and learned everything. He's a sponge and he makes some 2:07:32.880 --> 2:07:35.720 records in Nashville I think are stunning, whether you like 2:07:35.880 --> 2:07:39.360 him musically or not, for for the content, like I 2:07:39.440 --> 2:07:41.720 thought some of his Florida, Georgia line stuff was pretty 2:07:41.760 --> 2:07:45.360 impactful stuff. He's doing this music with this guy named 2:07:45.400 --> 2:07:51.520 Morgan Wallen right now, that's really resonating. So Joey's multi multifaceted, 2:07:51.600 --> 2:07:57.360 you know, and and he's he's just a smart music maker. Um. Yeah, 2:07:57.480 --> 2:08:00.360 I'll turn his stuff up to you know, like I'm 2:08:00.400 --> 2:08:04.040 looking for any new ideas anything, you know. So what 2:08:04.160 --> 2:08:06.320 do you think of the Morgan wall And double album. 2:08:06.560 --> 2:08:08.600 I even listened to the whole thing. I like Morgan Walland. 2:08:08.600 --> 2:08:11.560 I think he's a really good songwriter. I like his 2:08:11.800 --> 2:08:14.760 you know, forgetting the whole controversy and all that other stuff. 2:08:14.800 --> 2:08:18.360 There's a few controversies. The album, the double up is 2:08:18.400 --> 2:08:22.080 really good, really good people, you know, outside of country. 2:08:22.800 --> 2:08:25.200 It's one of these things where you listen to the 2:08:25.280 --> 2:08:28.000 record you can tell why it's so successful. He speaks 2:08:28.280 --> 2:08:32.320 right to people. It's he's not fabricating hit songs. He's 2:08:32.480 --> 2:08:35.560 he's he's he's he's telling his life. I mean the 2:08:35.640 --> 2:08:38.120 funny I just recorded a song of his. He was 2:08:38.160 --> 2:08:40.760 one of the co writers on uh. Keith Urban and 2:08:40.840 --> 2:08:43.640 I are kind of re saddling and doing some music together, 2:08:43.640 --> 2:08:46.400 which has been a lot of fun lately because we've 2:08:46.480 --> 2:08:48.080 had a few years. We haven't made a lot of music. 2:08:48.280 --> 2:08:49.800 We made a couple of singles and stuff like that. 2:08:50.400 --> 2:08:51.720 But we were doing a song on the other day 2:08:51.720 --> 2:08:53.720 and I asked him who the songwriters where He said, 2:08:54.040 --> 2:08:55.880 you know, Morgan was one of the songwriters. It's like 2:08:56.440 --> 2:09:00.920 and the alliteration, the it's like it's poetry, you know. 2:09:01.120 --> 2:09:03.720 I mean, it's it's from a I'm not you can 2:09:03.800 --> 2:09:06.960 tell I'm not like a like a full on Southerner, right, 2:09:07.880 --> 2:09:09.440 I've lived most of my life in the South, but 2:09:09.560 --> 2:09:11.720 my parents are from the North, so consequently I'm a 2:09:11.800 --> 2:09:17.360 bit more of a Yankee, you know. But but there's 2:09:17.400 --> 2:09:20.440 a heart to what he does that you can't help 2:09:20.480 --> 2:09:23.320 but be attracted to. So yeah, and those records that 2:09:23.400 --> 2:09:25.080 Joey does with him or as good as what he 2:09:25.120 --> 2:09:27.840 did with Florida Georgia. Okay, but not only is their heart, 2:09:28.000 --> 2:09:32.120 they're good changes. Yeah, yeah, No, he's he's he's a 2:09:32.200 --> 2:09:34.680 lightning rod, you know. And and some of this stuff, 2:09:34.720 --> 2:09:38.880 I mean, it's like this other stuff got for me, 2:09:39.080 --> 2:09:41.360 got blown out of a context. I mean, you know, 2:09:41.440 --> 2:09:43.160 i mean, without going into all this stuff, it's just 2:09:43.720 --> 2:09:47.120 it's it's so pc oriented, you know, it's like, it's like, 2:09:47.320 --> 2:09:53.839 I love what what Trevor Noah said about YEA Kanye. 2:09:54.000 --> 2:09:56.720 I can't call him a But the other day he said, 2:09:56.920 --> 2:09:58.680 you know, he doesn't need to be canceled, he needs 2:09:58.760 --> 2:10:02.320 he's counseling. You know. It's like exactly life. It's like, 2:10:02.480 --> 2:10:07.480 come on, come on, you know, yeah, Morgan Morrigan. Yeah, 2:10:07.960 --> 2:10:11.560 he drink too much, probably yeah, but I mean, come on, 2:10:12.520 --> 2:10:16.400 he's young. He got drunk one night, made a racial 2:10:16.520 --> 2:10:19.879 slur that he definitely shouldn't have said, but he apologized profusely. 2:10:20.120 --> 2:10:23.000 We gotta forgive him, give him a second chance to 2:10:23.120 --> 2:10:25.920 take somebody like that and to judge because of one 2:10:26.080 --> 2:10:31.200 snippet one night on somebody's phone. It's like, that's ridiculous. 2:10:31.640 --> 2:10:33.960 None of us would want that about ourselves, you know. 2:10:34.560 --> 2:10:37.120 So I think he's I think he's a I think 2:10:37.160 --> 2:10:40.640 he's a true voice. Do I agree with him and 2:10:40.720 --> 2:10:43.440 all of his and everything he says and acts? No, 2:10:43.840 --> 2:10:47.320 he'll no. But I mean, isn't that rock and roll too? 2:10:48.240 --> 2:10:53.280 But you mentioned ye Kanye? Do you understand that music? 2:10:53.560 --> 2:10:56.680 And I'm drawn to certain aspects of it, But but 2:10:56.920 --> 2:11:02.440 culturally I didn't grow up urban inner city right, right? 2:11:02.560 --> 2:11:05.720 I mean that's not that's that's not my language, it's 2:11:05.760 --> 2:11:11.120 not my culture. Um. I hear certain bits of hip 2:11:11.160 --> 2:11:14.400 hop music. Um. And this is where God help me 2:11:14.440 --> 2:11:16.800 out here, Bob right on the tip of my tongue. 2:11:17.360 --> 2:11:22.480 Super Bowl dr Nope, it wasn't Snoop dog Nope, keep going. 2:11:22.520 --> 2:11:26.880 I love them both. I love Snoop Dog. Um, keep going, Nope, 2:11:27.000 --> 2:11:30.360 keep going, Come on, j no, I love her to 2:11:30.560 --> 2:11:32.920 keep going. The last one on the on the talking 2:11:32.960 --> 2:11:39.160 about said nope, nope. Great, Okay, there's and there's Bowl. 2:11:39.360 --> 2:11:41.960 There was one, there was one more. And this is 2:11:42.080 --> 2:11:46.440 so embarrassing. He his his brand of hip hop music 2:11:47.120 --> 2:11:50.040 absolutely obliterates me. Not that I know the titles of 2:11:50.120 --> 2:11:53.080 his songs. And the embarrassing thing is I cannot remember 2:11:53.200 --> 2:11:58.000 his name right now. Kendrick Lamar, thank you, thank you. 2:11:58.320 --> 2:12:01.960 That's in my apologies. If Kendrick and Lamar would ever 2:12:02.040 --> 2:12:06.640 hear this. This is massive apologies, like for sixty one 2:12:06.800 --> 2:12:10.360 White Dude. Right. Like when I his his music really 2:12:10.480 --> 2:12:14.160 impacts me when I hear it presentation that cadence, the 2:12:14.240 --> 2:12:17.600 chord changes, there's a fusion with with with jazz music 2:12:17.720 --> 2:12:21.280 that it really excites me. Harmonically with his music. Um, 2:12:23.320 --> 2:12:25.000 not all rock music hits me, you know, I mean 2:12:25.280 --> 2:12:28.200 so so so not definitely. Not all hip hop music 2:12:28.360 --> 2:12:31.160 is gonna strike me, strike the same chord. Not all 2:12:31.200 --> 2:12:34.360 country music hits me either, you know. So so it's 2:12:34.400 --> 2:12:37.040 just you know, we all we all gravitate towards a 2:12:37.160 --> 2:12:39.520 thing that resonates. There's there's a there's a tuning fork 2:12:39.600 --> 2:12:42.800 in our soul, right, and certain music hits that tuning fork. 2:12:43.680 --> 2:12:45.880 You know, that's what makes it interesting. Well, I really 2:12:45.960 --> 2:12:48.880 believe the tuning fork. But ill, I'm checking myself all 2:12:48.960 --> 2:12:51.640 the time, and I say, well, if I heard the 2:12:51.720 --> 2:12:55.520 song twenty times, what I feel differently? You know the 2:12:55.600 --> 2:12:57.800 way we did in the old days. You're driving around 2:12:57.840 --> 2:13:00.600 with the radio, You're exposed. You're exposed again. I can 2:13:01.000 --> 2:13:05.040 name I'm teen songs I heard once and I knew it. Yeah, okay, 2:13:05.880 --> 2:13:09.280 And it's funny because when something resonates with my tuning fork. 2:13:09.320 --> 2:13:12.920 But moving on, anybody that you would like to work 2:13:13.000 --> 2:13:15.240 with you haven't worked with? Yeah, my well, I mean 2:13:15.320 --> 2:13:17.960 my dream you know, I mean is that you know 2:13:18.320 --> 2:13:21.240 I would love to work with with? You know YouTube? 2:13:22.120 --> 2:13:24.640 How's that? Okay? What would you do differently? What? What 2:13:24.760 --> 2:13:27.120 is what would you bring to the party. I can't 2:13:27.360 --> 2:13:29.920 you know, I wouldn't know off the top of the batot. 2:13:29.960 --> 2:13:32.400 I have to hear with it. What is There's something 2:13:32.480 --> 2:13:35.600 about what they did culturally at a time that I 2:13:35.680 --> 2:13:40.720 was coming through music, Their their intelligence, their life experience. 2:13:43.000 --> 2:13:47.880 It's it's rock. Music doesn't age gracefully most of the time. 2:13:48.000 --> 2:13:49.800 You know, it's a tough thing because it's it's a 2:13:49.920 --> 2:13:56.120 it's an adolescent urge right in necessary you know, so 2:13:56.320 --> 2:14:00.800 intellectually you have to have a different been, a different 2:14:00.840 --> 2:14:04.760 pursuit to to to keep connecting. I mean, it can't 2:14:04.800 --> 2:14:07.080 connect to the same level when you're young. It just 2:14:07.240 --> 2:14:13.320 it's it doesn't exist. That doesn't exist. But musically, um lyrically, 2:14:13.520 --> 2:14:16.200 even spiritually kind of where they come from. I'm interested 2:14:16.240 --> 2:14:19.440 that they interest me. That's the that that type of 2:14:19.760 --> 2:14:22.880 artists interests me. Now, I'm sure you asked me that night. 2:14:23.320 --> 2:14:26.440 Immediately that's my dream. That's shooting for the moon, right, 2:14:27.000 --> 2:14:29.120 will that happened? Oh yeah, you might as well go 2:14:29.240 --> 2:14:33.520 with the dream. And they've worked with the same people consistently, 2:14:34.240 --> 2:14:37.800 so for me, it would be interesting. Did you watch 2:14:37.880 --> 2:14:40.840 that movie? It might get loud with Jack. Why Jimmy 2:14:40.960 --> 2:14:45.000 Page and the Edge. No, it's just very interesting that 2:14:45.280 --> 2:14:48.920 so much of the Edge is sound are effects, no doubt, 2:14:49.080 --> 2:14:52.240 but he is. But the irony about that, right is 2:14:52.320 --> 2:14:56.400 that he has affected guitar players as much as anybody else. Period. 2:14:56.480 --> 2:14:59.480 Well I'm trying to say is, since you're starting, it's 2:14:59.480 --> 2:15:03.080 not like effects coming in and one take whale. Since 2:15:03.120 --> 2:15:06.120 you're starting someone who's laying effects, that's where you could 2:15:06.400 --> 2:15:09.240 help out. That's where you can do something. Maybe, I mean, 2:15:10.520 --> 2:15:12.000 I'm saying it probably because I just like to be 2:15:12.120 --> 2:15:15.440 in the room. I mean, yeah, it just seems to 2:15:15.560 --> 2:15:19.800 me more like like like he deals with layers. He's 2:15:19.840 --> 2:15:22.320 an orchestrator, right, and it's it's a different type of 2:15:22.960 --> 2:15:25.800 using guitar for a different purpose, right, It's not guitar 2:15:25.920 --> 2:15:29.960 for guitar, say Jeff Beck, if we're if I'm being honest, 2:15:30.200 --> 2:15:35.000 the one guitar player who I would most like to 2:15:35.040 --> 2:15:37.240 be in a room with would be Jeff Beck, period. 2:15:37.600 --> 2:15:39.920 Hands down. He's gonna die one day and the people 2:15:39.960 --> 2:15:42.680 who didn't see him are really gonna you know, I 2:15:42.800 --> 2:15:46.120 think he's the best. Jimmy Page brings other stuff. Hendrix 2:15:46.200 --> 2:15:47.920 means other stuff. But when you have to choose one. 2:15:47.960 --> 2:15:50.240 It's Jeff Beck for me and plays without a pick 2:15:50.320 --> 2:15:52.760 to boot. Yeah, I've seen him several times, like I 2:15:52.880 --> 2:15:55.720 just you know, all you all you do is sit 2:15:55.800 --> 2:15:57.440 there and just I got to see him at the 2:15:57.680 --> 2:16:01.320 the Um at the Rhyman Artistorium one time in Nashville. 2:16:01.800 --> 2:16:05.120 It's a great small theater, right, but acoustically it's beautiful. 2:16:05.960 --> 2:16:09.280 And you know, every guitar player in Nashville was there. 2:16:09.360 --> 2:16:11.760 It was you know, you're you're there talking about they 2:16:11.800 --> 2:16:14.960 called the Mother Church. Well you're there, you're basically worshiping 2:16:15.040 --> 2:16:19.120 this guy. And he didn't disappoint you know. No, it's 2:16:19.160 --> 2:16:23.040 just it's it's it's it's we're soul in electric guitar, 2:16:23.440 --> 2:16:30.880 meat and the and there's nothing more to say, tone, note, choice, dynamics, 2:16:31.000 --> 2:16:32.880 just everything about what he does, you know. I mean 2:16:32.920 --> 2:16:36.640 it's like it's it's it's, it's it's it is there 2:16:36.760 --> 2:16:38.640 is something. I mean, this is where music is, this 2:16:38.760 --> 2:16:43.080 transcendent level. Right. It ain't about hit songs, that's the thing, right, 2:16:43.120 --> 2:16:45.400 There's there's certain things we remember, there are hit songs. 2:16:46.200 --> 2:16:48.920 This is a different thing and it's and it's it's 2:16:49.040 --> 2:16:53.440 integral to our lives as those hit songs are. When 2:16:53.520 --> 2:16:58.320 he plays notes, it says more than a hit song. 2:16:58.480 --> 2:17:00.600 To me, it certainly does so much longer are you 2:17:00.680 --> 2:17:03.600 going to do this? It's a great question, you know. 2:17:04.320 --> 2:17:06.960 I don't think I'm gonna stop making music. I don't. 2:17:07.080 --> 2:17:09.119 I don't know how long I'm going to continue making 2:17:09.200 --> 2:17:12.840 what we would call commercial based music. I do have 2:17:13.000 --> 2:17:16.320 some other types of music. I mean you mentioned Dave Cobb. 2:17:18.240 --> 2:17:22.920 I love soundtrack music. I love music that's not commercial music. 2:17:23.200 --> 2:17:25.800 That's the irony that the stuff that I get called 2:17:25.879 --> 2:17:30.360 to do is is not necessarily what what I spend 2:17:30.440 --> 2:17:33.640 my time listening to. So I I I hope that 2:17:33.720 --> 2:17:37.720 I get to do some music. Um, there's just there's 2:17:37.760 --> 2:17:42.680 just writer in town that writes great poetry. His name 2:17:42.800 --> 2:17:46.640 is Mike Read. I don't know if you where you 2:17:46.680 --> 2:17:50.680 would know Mike Read's name is. His most famous song 2:17:50.840 --> 2:17:52.720 is a song that Bonnie Rate did called I Can't 2:17:52.760 --> 2:17:57.720 Make You Love Me? Sure right? And and it's like 2:17:58.360 --> 2:18:02.360 he writes. Mike's in his seventies. He he spends a 2:18:02.400 --> 2:18:05.400 lot of his time writing poetry now, and his poetry 2:18:05.520 --> 2:18:10.280 is devastating. He's he's like one of my dearest friends. 2:18:10.400 --> 2:18:15.640 We spend time talking about authors and everything is sept music. 2:18:15.720 --> 2:18:20.000 But but but we're musicians, right, And uh, the thing 2:18:20.080 --> 2:18:23.680 about the he writes songs that are not commercials like 2:18:23.760 --> 2:18:25.920 what we would call commercial songs now, because he's writing 2:18:25.959 --> 2:18:28.680 from a perspective of living life seventy plus years. By 2:18:28.720 --> 2:18:31.720 the way, he was also all pro defensive end for 2:18:31.760 --> 2:18:35.840 the Cincinnati Bengals, So he's he's in the song where 2:18:35.879 --> 2:18:38.359 he was all pro and he's also in the songwriting 2:18:38.400 --> 2:18:41.200 Hall of Fame right here. So but he writes these 2:18:41.280 --> 2:18:46.760 songs that are so cool. Um, they're not They're not 2:18:46.879 --> 2:18:50.240 like hit songs for kids to do, right, but they 2:18:50.400 --> 2:18:54.320 deal with with substance and and thoughts that that are 2:18:54.600 --> 2:18:57.000 becoming of of somebody who's lived seventy years on earth. 2:18:57.200 --> 2:18:59.640 I'd love to work with an artist would want to 2:18:59.640 --> 2:19:02.520 record that kind of music, to do that kind of 2:19:02.600 --> 2:19:05.640 music right, not on the grid of popular music. And 2:19:06.000 --> 2:19:08.160 I think I think I have something to add for that. 2:19:08.280 --> 2:19:11.880 So so and by the way, Alan Shamlin too was 2:19:12.360 --> 2:19:13.880 co wrote that song with him. I don't want to 2:19:13.920 --> 2:19:15.600 just give all the credit to might read on that 2:19:15.680 --> 2:19:17.720 it was one of the best pop songs of a 2:19:17.879 --> 2:19:22.480 of a couple of decades, right, Um, but that I 2:19:23.040 --> 2:19:25.879 find that compelling. I'd like to make some music down 2:19:27.280 --> 2:19:30.320 just I don't know, just something like that. Well, that's 2:19:30.360 --> 2:19:33.280 the real music. You know. Another great writer. I just 2:19:33.400 --> 2:19:36.320 have to mention, although he's self contained on those Bondie 2:19:36.400 --> 2:19:40.400 Rate records, Paul Brady, of those songs like luck of 2:19:40.480 --> 2:19:44.039 the Draw of the title song and you know it's 2:19:44.120 --> 2:19:47.000 just a lyrics, etcetera. He had a chance, like thirty 2:19:47.080 --> 2:19:51.400 years ago to break Biggie, worked with Steely Dan's producer, 2:19:51.560 --> 2:19:56.600 but didn't happen. Although he's an icon in in Ireland. Brady. Yeah, 2:19:57.360 --> 2:19:59.959 you're not familiar with Bob Brady. Well, I'm gonna look 2:20:00.000 --> 2:20:03.720 them up after we finished our conversation. Oh wait, he 2:20:03.920 --> 2:20:08.840 had one song, the Long Goodbye, was a hit. Okay, 2:20:08.920 --> 2:20:10.880 now tell me who recorded it, because this is what 2:20:10.959 --> 2:20:14.720 I'm gonna show my ignorance Brooks and done. Okay, yeah, 2:20:15.040 --> 2:20:18.160 I vaguely remember that. But since you're talking about lyrics, 2:20:18.280 --> 2:20:20.680 he had this song on this side called Paradise is 2:20:20.760 --> 2:20:23.680 Here Now, but just lyrics. I'm gonna play this lyrics. 2:20:24.040 --> 2:20:26.440 I said, you say you want to live some move 2:20:26.520 --> 2:20:29.440 out into the fast lane. You say, you need excitement 2:20:29.520 --> 2:20:32.360 to make you come alive, to place a million miles 2:20:32.440 --> 2:20:35.359 from the shadows that surround you, I look for attention. 2:20:35.440 --> 2:20:38.920 You're lost in the future where lovers ask no questions 2:20:38.959 --> 2:20:43.160 and shadows never fall. Some pilgrim round for paradise, no compromise, 2:20:43.640 --> 2:20:47.120 But paradise is here and then it goes off to me. 2:20:47.640 --> 2:20:50.080 And that comes with living, right. I mean, you don't 2:20:50.160 --> 2:20:55.720 write that when you're in your twenties unless you're extremely 2:20:56.040 --> 2:21:00.600 prolific and you're kind of beyond your years. There's music 2:21:00.680 --> 2:21:04.280 to be made, I think. I think for all of 2:21:04.400 --> 2:21:08.240 us who have been through in the trenches of pop music, 2:21:08.320 --> 2:21:10.960 I think there's more music to be made outside, as 2:21:11.000 --> 2:21:13.240 long as we can lose the idea that it has 2:21:13.360 --> 2:21:16.480 to be hit music. You know they're gonna be people. Well, 2:21:16.520 --> 2:21:19.120 I think a hit. No, there's a definition of a 2:21:19.200 --> 2:21:21.760 hit on the radio chart, the X number of millions 2:21:21.800 --> 2:21:24.960 of streams on Spotify. But there are plenty of songs 2:21:25.480 --> 2:21:28.680 that are hits because they hate you a certain way, 2:21:29.160 --> 2:21:32.320 they have a certain effect, irrelevant of the commerciality. You know, 2:21:32.360 --> 2:21:36.600 I could whip out twenty you know that means so 2:21:36.760 --> 2:21:39.120 much to me that were never charted, but it's like 2:21:39.640 --> 2:21:42.800 unbelievable just to listen to those songs, which of course 2:21:42.920 --> 2:21:45.040 brings me to Jason Isbell. What do you think of 2:21:45.160 --> 2:21:47.880 Jason Isbell? Uh, I've seen him play live. I don't 2:21:47.920 --> 2:21:51.520 know a lot of his recorded music, but when I 2:21:51.520 --> 2:21:53.240 saw him play live it was I think a year 2:21:53.280 --> 2:21:55.720 and a half ago, it was it was stunning. I mean, 2:21:55.760 --> 2:21:58.600 it's just he doesn't seem to be constrained by what 2:21:59.120 --> 2:22:01.960 this whole idium of pop music. He just this is 2:22:02.080 --> 2:22:04.440 kind of weird. I think things are are headed because 2:22:04.520 --> 2:22:07.680 of of of streaming. It's like people just they're gonna 2:22:07.680 --> 2:22:10.120 do what they're gonna do, and people are gonna find them. 2:22:10.120 --> 2:22:12.520 They're gonna find their audience or audience because they find them, 2:22:12.840 --> 2:22:14.640 and we we don't. We're not gonna have to bother 2:22:14.720 --> 2:22:18.680 as much with this idea of hit music anymore, at 2:22:18.760 --> 2:22:21.240 least I hope. So it has been fantastic, Dan. I 2:22:21.360 --> 2:22:23.320 want to thank you for taking so much time with me. 2:22:23.800 --> 2:22:28.080 I'm I'm honored. And uh, as I said, you wrote 2:22:28.120 --> 2:22:30.680 a very kind piece about me, and and and uh 2:22:31.240 --> 2:22:33.119 it was it was nice because a lot of friends 2:22:33.200 --> 2:22:35.200 called me that I hadn't heard it from in a 2:22:35.320 --> 2:22:37.320 long time. So I'm honored to be a part of it, 2:22:37.400 --> 2:22:40.520 and and and and thank you for for what you 2:22:40.640 --> 2:22:44.760 do from a historian standpoint, and just your involvement. I mean, 2:22:45.040 --> 2:22:49.760 it's like, you know, the rule has changed too, hasn't boy, 2:22:49.840 --> 2:22:53.160 hasn't changed. But the great thing about it is, you know, 2:22:53.360 --> 2:22:55.720 back in the old days, you knew every record on 2:22:55.760 --> 2:22:59.040 the chart, even if you never heard it. Now nobody 2:22:59.120 --> 2:23:03.560 can know everything. No, it's like it's just overwhelming. How 2:23:03.640 --> 2:23:05.920 long are you going to do this? Bob, I'm gonna 2:23:05.959 --> 2:23:11.720 do this till I die? But what motivates me? I 2:23:11.800 --> 2:23:17.200 would articulate it in a different fashion, but it's that resonance. 2:23:17.400 --> 2:23:22.920 It's that thing. And I ser them, you know, seven 2:23:23.000 --> 2:23:25.480 years older than you are, and so I was there 2:23:25.520 --> 2:23:28.800 when the Beatles broke, etcetera. There are a lot of records, 2:23:28.879 --> 2:23:31.400 not only in the sixties, but in the seventies they 2:23:31.480 --> 2:23:36.520 had so much meaning. The whole musical culture has changed. 2:23:37.240 --> 2:23:40.320 But there are a lot of elements in streaming TV. 2:23:41.320 --> 2:23:43.440 I mean, you could start with the sopranos. I can 2:23:43.520 --> 2:23:46.880 mention shows were they male? Essence of life? Most of 2:23:46.959 --> 2:23:50.480 them are four in shows. That's what really resonates with me. 2:23:50.640 --> 2:23:54.640 And I find just like if you go down that 2:23:54.920 --> 2:23:59.080 rabbit hole, if you stop worrying about giving people what 2:23:59.240 --> 2:24:03.320 they want, that's what they're most interested in. They're most 2:24:03.680 --> 2:24:08.080 interested in the personal and seeing what's going on in life. 2:24:08.879 --> 2:24:11.760 And you know, and a rock stars completely changed from 2:24:11.840 --> 2:24:16.600 the seventies where it really became iconic. In the seventies, 2:24:16.640 --> 2:24:19.520 a rock star was as rich as anybody and would 2:24:19.640 --> 2:24:23.720 say no and can destroy hotel rooms. But today, in 2:24:23.840 --> 2:24:26.440 the era of billionaires, you can't make that much money 2:24:26.480 --> 2:24:30.040 in music. All you can do is speak truth to power, 2:24:30.480 --> 2:24:34.080 and people have forgotten that. I mean, the power of 2:24:34.120 --> 2:24:36.279 a good song. If you listen to rock music today, 2:24:36.720 --> 2:24:39.440 the on the active rock, you need a whole lexicon 2:24:39.600 --> 2:24:42.880 just to figure out how they got there. You know, 2:24:43.120 --> 2:24:46.520 it's not something that you hear once and just go wow. 2:24:47.400 --> 2:24:50.840 So I think, and it's you know. Another thing is 2:24:51.120 --> 2:24:54.160 this and you references in an oblique way, is the 2:24:54.240 --> 2:25:00.240 political situation. This is driving our culture. The interesting thing 2:25:00.440 --> 2:25:03.520 is when I talked to the titans of the live 2:25:03.640 --> 2:25:07.560 business for years, they just want to talk politics. Yeah, 2:25:07.640 --> 2:25:09.880 we can talk about the tour or whatever, because there's 2:25:10.000 --> 2:25:14.080 so much at stake. Even in Nashville, where they redid 2:25:14.160 --> 2:25:19.600 you know, jerrymandered, etcetera. It's the future hangs in the balance. 2:25:19.680 --> 2:25:23.680 And now we have Ukraine. Everyone thought Russia would run 2:25:23.760 --> 2:25:26.600 over them in a minute. So the key is and 2:25:26.720 --> 2:25:29.120 it's you. That's why I love so much what you said. 2:25:29.680 --> 2:25:35.879 You can't keep repeating yourself. That's death. You know, as 2:25:35.920 --> 2:25:37.880 you say, you know what you bring to the party, 2:25:38.120 --> 2:25:40.200 and there's always a need for that, because only you 2:25:40.360 --> 2:25:43.879 can deliver yourself. But I know some of these trade papers, 2:25:43.920 --> 2:25:47.240 these guys in the seventies, the names and the faces changed, 2:25:47.280 --> 2:25:51.680 they're still doing it. It's like, holy fuck. You know, 2:25:51.879 --> 2:25:54.360 it's like, there's got to be more to life. Well 2:25:54.400 --> 2:25:58.040 there is there, there isn't and and and what you 2:25:58.120 --> 2:26:02.880 said also about some of this streaming via television now right, 2:26:02.959 --> 2:26:06.440 and people have you gotta give you gotta give people 2:26:06.520 --> 2:26:09.200 more credit. People have more of an attention span, they're 2:26:09.240 --> 2:26:12.320 smarter than we give people. But when we give them credit, 2:26:12.520 --> 2:26:15.520 right an audience, I couldn't I have said, well, I 2:26:15.640 --> 2:26:17.480 say it in a different way. People just have an 2:26:17.520 --> 2:26:20.880 incredible ship detector. They go no, no, no, and then 2:26:20.920 --> 2:26:24.280 they'll watch the streaming show for ten hours. Yeah, and 2:26:24.400 --> 2:26:26.360 that's and and those are the values I think. I 2:26:26.440 --> 2:26:30.440 think we're just starting to you can become confronted with 2:26:30.560 --> 2:26:33.840 again in music. It's like, no, it's not an algorithm. 2:26:34.120 --> 2:26:37.480 I'm sorry. You've you've got there is a thing called 2:26:37.520 --> 2:26:39.480 soul and you've got to access that and you've got 2:26:39.600 --> 2:26:42.320 to listen for it. And it's it's precious and you 2:26:42.440 --> 2:26:45.320 can stomp the ever living life out of it if 2:26:45.600 --> 2:26:51.520 you are not, if you're not humble enough to sit 2:26:51.600 --> 2:26:53.680 and wait for it, you know, and and and for me, 2:26:54.000 --> 2:26:55.840 you know, it's my small world, but it's in a 2:26:55.959 --> 2:26:59.800 recording studio, but it does exist. And well when you 2:27:00.040 --> 2:27:03.080 I witnessed it today. I witnessed it in a beautiful way. 2:27:03.280 --> 2:27:06.240 It was awesome. This thing came to life out of nowhere. 2:27:06.520 --> 2:27:09.720 We had no preprogramming, there was nothing. There was not 2:27:09.800 --> 2:27:13.280 even a demo. There was a guitar work tape, and 2:27:13.440 --> 2:27:16.600 we just allowed this thing to blossom and and it 2:27:16.720 --> 2:27:18.880 was it was like it happened. You know. Well, you 2:27:19.000 --> 2:27:21.840 know how I became aware of your success in the 2:27:21.959 --> 2:27:24.640 country music world. I have a friend who's in country 2:27:24.760 --> 2:27:29.200 music agent and his his recommendations are phenomenal. And this 2:27:29.320 --> 2:27:33.080 goes back to I guess two thousand seven he sent 2:27:33.160 --> 2:27:37.440 me Keith Urban Stupid Boy. Woh yeah, and holy fuck. 2:27:37.680 --> 2:27:39.800 You know, people say, oh, country music said, listen to 2:27:39.920 --> 2:27:42.800 this track. This is better than any of the rock 2:27:42.879 --> 2:27:45.680 and roll I mean, forget that. It's an amazing guitar solo. 2:27:45.920 --> 2:27:48.920 It's soulful. Not to mention the song itself, it's so great. 2:27:49.640 --> 2:27:52.400 Sarah Buxton wrote that, by the way, I sat next 2:27:52.480 --> 2:27:55.920 to her at Joe Walsh's seventy fifth birthday party. I 2:27:56.000 --> 2:27:58.879 bet you her. I bet you Tom Bukavit, her husband then, 2:27:59.080 --> 2:28:02.080 was playing guitar for Joe wash. Well, he was there. 2:28:02.520 --> 2:28:04.760 Joe played for a little while. You know, some of 2:28:04.840 --> 2:28:07.800 the regulars that he's played with. I don't remember. We 2:28:07.879 --> 2:28:10.400 were sitting at the same table. I can't remember who played, 2:28:10.879 --> 2:28:13.080 but yes, she was. You know. It's funny because such 2:28:13.120 --> 2:28:16.200 a heavy, serious song and she's such a breezy woman. 2:28:16.400 --> 2:28:19.680 It's kind of funny. Yeah, she's She's from a different era, 2:28:21.680 --> 2:28:27.000 but it's listen. The songwriters got fucked in streaming. There's 2:28:27.080 --> 2:28:30.200 no doubt about that. They got the smaller piece of 2:28:30.440 --> 2:28:35.160 pie than they deserve, and I hope they can get more. However, 2:28:35.600 --> 2:28:39.680 you cannot hold back the future. Yes, you used to 2:28:39.720 --> 2:28:42.280 have one track on a CD. It's old. Millions of 2:28:42.320 --> 2:28:45.360 cops you got paid. Those days are through. They're just through. 2:28:46.560 --> 2:28:51.560 And so until you recognize where we are, you're lost. 2:28:51.760 --> 2:28:54.199 We we can't we can bring elements of the past 2:28:54.520 --> 2:28:57.480 into the future. But you know, I hear from these 2:28:57.520 --> 2:29:00.560 people all day long. You know, streaming is not paying enough. 2:29:00.879 --> 2:29:02.480 Most of these people, they won't even be able to 2:29:02.640 --> 2:29:06.000 make records in the old days. No, and you know what, 2:29:07.240 --> 2:29:09.800 you know again, we have our perspective, We've been through 2:29:09.879 --> 2:29:12.600 it right, and we have our expectations. You tell that 2:29:12.680 --> 2:29:14.720 to an eighteen year old kid. Man, they don't care, 2:29:14.920 --> 2:29:16.240 is they? You know what they You know what I 2:29:16.320 --> 2:29:18.600 want to do. When I was eighteen, I wanted to 2:29:18.680 --> 2:29:22.400 be able to make my rent so I could play 2:29:22.520 --> 2:29:25.520 music the next day. That was the value and that's 2:29:25.560 --> 2:29:27.520 still what it's all about. Man, if you can make 2:29:27.600 --> 2:29:30.119 your rent, if you can play a show that night. 2:29:30.280 --> 2:29:32.760 For me, it was playing a session, a demo session. 2:29:33.480 --> 2:29:37.119 That's it. The rest of it is, whatever your life, 2:29:37.680 --> 2:29:40.200 it's probably good. The thing got toppled for a while 2:29:40.240 --> 2:29:43.720 because it needs to reinvent itself, you know. And you 2:29:43.800 --> 2:29:45.320 can say well, it's easy for you to say because 2:29:45.360 --> 2:29:47.240 you lived through some fat times. Yeah I did. But 2:29:47.840 --> 2:29:50.040 but that's not why I got involved in it. That 2:29:50.360 --> 2:29:53.680 never was the reason. No, not at all, not at all. 2:29:54.040 --> 2:29:57.000 But the interesting thing is, for the last twenty years, 2:29:57.520 --> 2:29:59.200 used to be every three to seven years we got 2:29:59.240 --> 2:30:02.680 a whole new sound. Yeah, and that hasn't happened now. 2:30:02.680 --> 2:30:06.120 A lot of other things, you know, you can mention, 2:30:06.320 --> 2:30:08.080 you can go to the coast and you can mention 2:30:08.160 --> 2:30:10.879 the number one country hit records, and then a lot 2:30:10.920 --> 2:30:13.560 of people have no idea who these acts are. Same thing, 2:30:14.280 --> 2:30:16.240 you know, some of these records that are number one 2:30:16.280 --> 2:30:19.760 on the pop charts the weekend. You can evade things now. 2:30:20.320 --> 2:30:24.960 Used to be you couldn't avoid hearing certain sounds, and 2:30:25.040 --> 2:30:29.119 there was a cohesiveness. So maybe it's more of an understand. 2:30:29.160 --> 2:30:32.360 You know, the major labels you said earlier are so 2:30:32.720 --> 2:30:36.440 focused on hit singles, they're conceding the rest of the 2:30:36.600 --> 2:30:40.160 universe to other people. Let's say, that's an interesting thing. 2:30:40.200 --> 2:30:42.200 Not to and not to be self serving this thing, 2:30:42.280 --> 2:30:45.280 but but I just finishes working with Kane Brown and 2:30:45.840 --> 2:30:49.120 and I do a lot of his production. I don't 2:30:49.160 --> 2:30:50.520 do all of it because He does a lot of 2:30:50.560 --> 2:30:54.280 collaborative collaborations with with different hip hop artists and I 2:30:54.360 --> 2:30:57.200 don't do that, you know, And and it's it's it's 2:30:57.240 --> 2:30:59.040 funny because he's you know, he's he's a new breed 2:30:59.080 --> 2:31:02.640 of artist. You know, he's he has his roots. He 2:31:02.800 --> 2:31:05.240 grew up in the South and his he was raised 2:31:05.280 --> 2:31:09.000 by his grandfather who turned him onto uh to uh 2:31:09.400 --> 2:31:12.400 Rainy Travis Records. When he's a kid, right, He's from 2:31:12.800 --> 2:31:15.440 a mixed race family. His grand his granddad was white. 2:31:15.920 --> 2:31:18.800 You know, here's this young kid, by racial kid, growing 2:31:18.879 --> 2:31:21.960 up in the South under some pretty tough conditions, just 2:31:22.080 --> 2:31:25.199 trying to figure it out. Thankfully channeled it through music. 2:31:25.560 --> 2:31:27.840 As a matter of fact, the first time I met him, 2:31:27.879 --> 2:31:30.200 he was here at my studio playing me songs, and 2:31:30.280 --> 2:31:32.760 he played me a song they just ripped my heart 2:31:32.800 --> 2:31:36.920 out called learning. He grew up with a consciousness towards 2:31:37.000 --> 2:31:39.840 country music, and he knows so much about country music. 2:31:40.360 --> 2:31:44.840 But then the hip hop role loves this guy because 2:31:44.879 --> 2:31:47.440 he's a he's he's got a really cool voice, and 2:31:48.120 --> 2:31:52.360 he's a country artist, but he's not constrained by being 2:31:52.440 --> 2:31:55.520 a country artist. This guy is playing to every kind 2:31:55.560 --> 2:31:58.960 of audience in the world, and it's it's I love 2:31:59.040 --> 2:32:01.760 that because it's you know, the the idea that you 2:32:01.879 --> 2:32:08.520 can you can label one individual by by a music 2:32:08.680 --> 2:32:11.760 genre is is to me as a joke. He just 2:32:11.920 --> 2:32:14.240 loves music. He sings what the hell he wants to sing, 2:32:14.840 --> 2:32:17.520 and they'll sing a song he just he We just 2:32:17.640 --> 2:32:21.080 did a song the other day called Pop's Last Name, right, 2:32:21.280 --> 2:32:25.120 he's singing about his deceased grandfather. He absolutely loves that. 2:32:25.440 --> 2:32:29.240 That raised him, right, and then what's his latest pop 2:32:29.280 --> 2:32:31.760 I can't remember the latest pop single that he had, 2:32:31.920 --> 2:32:36.040 humongous pop single, you know. It's like, and he's just 2:32:36.120 --> 2:32:38.360 going to help with it all. I'm just gonna put 2:32:38.400 --> 2:32:40.920 out songs. I'm gonna drop tracks, right, And of course 2:32:41.000 --> 2:32:44.280 everybody's running after him. You can't do that, well, yeah 2:32:44.360 --> 2:32:47.600 you can. You know. I think that's phenomenal, you know, 2:32:47.800 --> 2:32:49.360 and we just all trying to keep up with him 2:32:49.400 --> 2:32:52.440 because he's you know, he's doing what he does. That's 2:32:52.480 --> 2:32:55.800 the future right there. It's it's nobody owns nobody owns 2:32:55.840 --> 2:32:59.280 this stuff, you know, it's it's it's owned by the future. Well, 2:32:59.400 --> 2:33:01.640 on some little all the baby boomers have to die 2:33:02.600 --> 2:33:05.120 because the ethos of the younger people is just totally. 2:33:05.240 --> 2:33:08.080 I mean, this is a crooked business. Younger people don't 2:33:08.160 --> 2:33:10.400 view it that way. They don't mind making money, but 2:33:10.480 --> 2:33:12.720 they say, okay, it's ones and zeros, this is what 2:33:12.840 --> 2:33:17.200 I mowed whatever. And you know, all this focus that 2:33:17.400 --> 2:33:20.520 we have is not is across the board. It's not 2:33:20.600 --> 2:33:24.520 only music, etcetera. At some point you have to see it. 2:33:25.040 --> 2:33:27.160 They're stealing the world's We don't really have to see 2:33:27.160 --> 2:33:29.120 it because there's a lot of good stuff come out. 2:33:29.120 --> 2:33:31.920 And you talk about Florida Georgia Line. You know, that's 2:33:31.920 --> 2:33:35.040 a band that recently broke up and has gotten a 2:33:35.080 --> 2:33:37.560 lot of ship. But they injected a lot of hip 2:33:37.600 --> 2:33:42.040 hop into country and and it was good for everybody, 2:33:42.320 --> 2:33:44.959 no joke. And it's and you know that's these kids 2:33:45.040 --> 2:33:48.000 growing up playing country music. Right, you go to these 2:33:48.040 --> 2:33:51.200 country bars and it's hip hop music between sets. Well, 2:33:51.280 --> 2:33:53.360 that's because that's what they're growing up on. And and 2:33:53.680 --> 2:33:57.080 they're not interested in just being one thing. And I 2:33:57.240 --> 2:34:01.880 think that's phenomenal. I mean, to me, that's music is 2:34:01.920 --> 2:34:06.320 not supposed to be one language. It's supposed to encompass 2:34:06.360 --> 2:34:09.920 all languages. Right, you have your dialect he's but I 2:34:09.959 --> 2:34:12.000 don't want to know how they speak in another country. 2:34:12.360 --> 2:34:14.480 That's the beauty of all this stuff. Nobody owns it. 2:34:15.440 --> 2:34:17.280 Let the thing out of the bag. And as a 2:34:17.280 --> 2:34:19.040 matter of fact, we're not letting ship out of the bag. 2:34:19.080 --> 2:34:21.560 It's it's out of the bag, right, We're just hanging 2:34:21.600 --> 2:34:23.920 on for dear life. Well, that's one thing we've learned. 2:34:24.280 --> 2:34:26.760 Nobody is in control. I mean, this is going up. 2:34:27.160 --> 2:34:30.480 But covid Us, I thought that the world was the 2:34:30.520 --> 2:34:32.640 country was kind of run by a few people, and 2:34:32.680 --> 2:34:35.960 it was all kind of worries. Now whatsoever. The fact 2:34:36.040 --> 2:34:38.680 that the country works at all, any country, is mind 2:34:38.680 --> 2:34:42.240 blowing to me. It's a million people with a million 2:34:42.400 --> 2:34:45.840 different thoughts, never mind, you know, right or wrong. It's 2:34:45.959 --> 2:34:50.320 just astounding. I mean, this is a you know, you go. 2:34:50.480 --> 2:34:53.280 You talked about the attention span. The other thing that 2:34:53.440 --> 2:34:56.920 makes me crazy is people bitching about the phone. How 2:34:57.160 --> 2:35:00.120 great is the phone? You can be in contact with 2:35:00.280 --> 2:35:03.440 people twenty four seven. You can go down the rabbit 2:35:03.480 --> 2:35:06.480 hole of the stuff that you're interested in. I mean 2:35:07.040 --> 2:35:09.800 I could never be in contact with this many people. 2:35:09.920 --> 2:35:12.000 I couldn't. I mean I never even talked on the phone, 2:35:12.200 --> 2:35:14.640 so I'm not saying that whatever, but to have that 2:35:14.800 --> 2:35:17.920 in your hand, and it's a lot more interesting than 2:35:17.959 --> 2:35:19.879 a lot of ship that's going around a lot of time. 2:35:19.959 --> 2:35:24.120 That's why people on their phone. The only probably you 2:35:24.360 --> 2:35:26.520 and I have is we were We were in the 2:35:26.600 --> 2:35:29.640 same adult class, right and we can talk forever. So 2:35:30.800 --> 2:35:34.480 for me, this is wonderful because I melled what I 2:35:34.560 --> 2:35:38.520 already know with a deep dive into your role to country. 2:35:38.520 --> 2:35:39.920 I mean, I certainly know a lot of people who 2:35:40.000 --> 2:35:45.760 work in country, but your perspective the best parts where 2:35:46.200 --> 2:35:50.040 how you do it. You know, the collaboration. I have 2:35:50.120 --> 2:35:53.320 a friend who was ran publishing a candidate for one time. 2:35:53.320 --> 2:35:57.320 I mean, big believer in collaboration. And what do you 2:35:57.400 --> 2:36:00.560 think of the Beatles documentary? You watch it now? Just 2:36:01.240 --> 2:36:03.960 it's it's what you know intuitively in your heart. And 2:36:04.120 --> 2:36:09.440 to see your heroes doing that thing, that almost painful 2:36:09.520 --> 2:36:13.320 family thing was great. The fact that so much of 2:36:13.400 --> 2:36:16.879 it was spontaneous and not premeditated just blew my mind 2:36:17.280 --> 2:36:21.040 because the records are so iconic. The fact that they said, 2:36:21.080 --> 2:36:23.200 well we got a couple of weeks, we're doing something, 2:36:23.800 --> 2:36:27.720 just unbelievable. Collaboration, is it? That's really what it is. 2:36:27.879 --> 2:36:31.440 I mean, you can't underestimate what that is worth. I 2:36:31.520 --> 2:36:33.280 mean for the good and the bad. But it's it's 2:36:33.600 --> 2:36:37.280 it's what I really seriously think. Everybody has about three 2:36:37.320 --> 2:36:39.880 good ideas. That's it. Now, there are some people who 2:36:39.959 --> 2:36:43.520 are extraordinarily gifted above the rest of us, and and 2:36:43.680 --> 2:36:45.320 take them out of the equation. But the restaurant, we've 2:36:45.320 --> 2:36:48.879 got three or four good ideas. But exponentially, you put 2:36:48.959 --> 2:36:51.320 that in the room with with with four people who 2:36:51.600 --> 2:36:53.760 who have gotten three or four ideas from somebody else, 2:36:53.840 --> 2:36:55.879 and then then the world. You have the world at 2:36:55.920 --> 2:36:58.560 that point. And that's that's what I would get. Get 2:36:58.600 --> 2:37:00.040 a chance to winns I and like I said it, 2:37:00.120 --> 2:37:02.040 I thought today so it was really nice. Well, you 2:37:02.120 --> 2:37:04.720 could expand that to many other elements of our universe, 2:37:04.800 --> 2:37:08.959 even though we're not. But in any event, until next time, 2:37:09.240 --> 2:37:10.640 this is Bob West says