1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:00:23,596 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey everyone, it's Maya. The best part of making 2 00:00:23,676 --> 00:00:26,156 Speaker 1: this show has been hearing from all of you about 3 00:00:26,156 --> 00:00:29,316 Speaker 1: how these conversations have transformed the way you think about 4 00:00:29,316 --> 00:00:32,476 Speaker 1: your life and have helped you better navigate your slight 5 00:00:32,556 --> 00:00:35,756 Speaker 1: changes of plan. With that in mind, we wanted to 6 00:00:35,796 --> 00:00:39,436 Speaker 1: revisit four of your all time favorite episodes this summer. 7 00:00:40,116 --> 00:00:42,556 Speaker 1: They also happen to be some of my favorites too. 8 00:00:43,476 --> 00:00:47,196 Speaker 1: First up, drum roll please, our first ever episode of 9 00:00:47,196 --> 00:00:50,796 Speaker 1: the show, which features Darryl Davis, a black jazz musician 10 00:00:50,916 --> 00:00:54,116 Speaker 1: whose life took an unexpected turn after a member of 11 00:00:54,156 --> 00:00:57,316 Speaker 1: the Ku Klux Klan approached him after one of his concerts. 12 00:00:58,356 --> 00:01:01,076 Speaker 1: When I first conceptualized what this show could even be, 13 00:01:01,676 --> 00:01:05,116 Speaker 1: I had Darryl's story in mind. It took forever for 14 00:01:05,236 --> 00:01:08,396 Speaker 1: me to track him down, and I literally remember jumping 15 00:01:08,556 --> 00:01:10,756 Speaker 1: up and down in my living room when I finally 16 00:01:10,796 --> 00:01:14,396 Speaker 1: heard back. Daryl and I have since become good friends, 17 00:01:14,556 --> 00:01:17,356 Speaker 1: and my husband Jimmy, and I had the amazing opportunity 18 00:01:17,436 --> 00:01:20,116 Speaker 1: to meet him in person for dinner last summer in DC. 19 00:01:21,276 --> 00:01:23,436 Speaker 1: If you're new to the show, this is a great 20 00:01:23,516 --> 00:01:26,356 Speaker 1: episode to start with, and if you aren't, it's a 21 00:01:26,396 --> 00:01:30,076 Speaker 1: great one to revisit. I have felt transformed by it, 22 00:01:30,316 --> 00:01:33,396 Speaker 1: and I often reflect back on the profound insights Darryl 23 00:01:33,436 --> 00:01:33,996 Speaker 1: shared with me. 24 00:01:45,596 --> 00:01:48,396 Speaker 2: So I was riding in my car. I'm driving and 25 00:01:48,436 --> 00:01:52,236 Speaker 2: this clansman was sitting in my passenger seat and we 26 00:01:52,356 --> 00:01:56,516 Speaker 2: got on the topic of a crime, and he made 27 00:01:56,556 --> 00:02:00,996 Speaker 2: the mention that black people are born with a gene 28 00:02:01,516 --> 00:02:05,796 Speaker 2: that makes them violent. And I said, look, I'm as 29 00:02:05,796 --> 00:02:09,836 Speaker 2: black as anybody you've ever seen. I have never done 30 00:02:09,836 --> 00:02:12,716 Speaker 2: a drive by or a car jacking. How do you 31 00:02:12,756 --> 00:02:17,076 Speaker 2: explain that this man did not hesitate one second? He 32 00:02:17,156 --> 00:02:20,596 Speaker 2: answered me instantly, he said, your gene is latent. It 33 00:02:20,596 --> 00:02:21,556 Speaker 2: hasn't come out yet. 34 00:02:22,676 --> 00:02:26,716 Speaker 1: That's Daryl Davis, a blues musician. And yeah, you heard 35 00:02:26,756 --> 00:02:29,556 Speaker 1: him right. He's driving in his car with a member 36 00:02:29,596 --> 00:02:30,916 Speaker 1: of the Ku Klux Klan. 37 00:02:31,796 --> 00:02:34,876 Speaker 2: You know, I was speechless. I was dumbfounded. And he's 38 00:02:34,876 --> 00:02:37,596 Speaker 2: sitting next to me with all smug and secure. Let huh, 39 00:02:37,636 --> 00:02:40,276 Speaker 2: you see, you know you have nothing to say. And 40 00:02:40,356 --> 00:02:43,116 Speaker 2: I thought about it for a moment rather than attack him, 41 00:02:43,156 --> 00:02:46,476 Speaker 2: you say it's not true. It's not true. I said 42 00:02:46,476 --> 00:02:50,036 Speaker 2: to him, I said, you know, white people have a 43 00:02:50,076 --> 00:02:55,716 Speaker 2: gene within them that make them serial killers. And he said, 44 00:02:55,716 --> 00:02:59,276 Speaker 2: why would you say that. I said, well, Fayson, name 45 00:02:59,356 --> 00:03:02,956 Speaker 2: me three black serial killers. He thought about it. He 46 00:03:02,996 --> 00:03:06,356 Speaker 2: couldn't name anybody. He couldn't do it. I rattled off 47 00:03:06,716 --> 00:03:12,196 Speaker 2: Charles Manson, Jeffrey Dalmer, Lucas, John Wayne Gacy, Ted Bundy, 48 00:03:12,556 --> 00:03:15,636 Speaker 2: David berkle with son of Sam Albert de Salvo, the 49 00:03:15,636 --> 00:03:18,676 Speaker 2: boss and strangler. And I said, son, you are a 50 00:03:18,676 --> 00:03:23,156 Speaker 2: serial killer. And he said, Darryl, I've never killed anybody. 51 00:03:23,596 --> 00:03:27,036 Speaker 2: I said, you're Gina's latent hasn't come out yet. He said, well, 52 00:03:27,116 --> 00:03:30,996 Speaker 2: that's stupid. And I said, well, dug, it is stupid. 53 00:03:31,956 --> 00:03:35,916 Speaker 2: And he got very, very quiet, and I could tell 54 00:03:35,996 --> 00:03:39,516 Speaker 2: that the gears in his head were spinning super fast, 55 00:03:40,116 --> 00:03:42,916 Speaker 2: burning a hole in there. And then he a moment 56 00:03:43,036 --> 00:03:46,836 Speaker 2: later he changed the subject. But within five months this 57 00:03:46,996 --> 00:03:48,676 Speaker 2: guy quit the Ku Klux Klan. 58 00:03:51,796 --> 00:03:54,836 Speaker 1: Since that car ride thirty years ago, Darryl Davis has 59 00:03:54,876 --> 00:03:57,356 Speaker 1: gone on to convince dozens of people to leave the 60 00:03:57,436 --> 00:04:01,156 Speaker 1: Ku Klux Klan. Convincing someone else to change their mind 61 00:04:01,316 --> 00:04:04,396 Speaker 1: their view of reality is one of the most elusive, 62 00:04:04,556 --> 00:04:08,116 Speaker 1: coveted types of change, which is why Darryl's story feels 63 00:04:08,156 --> 00:04:12,756 Speaker 1: so improbable, So how does he do it? I'm Maya Shunker. 64 00:04:13,236 --> 00:04:16,596 Speaker 1: As a cognitive scientist, I've always been fascinated by how 65 00:04:16,636 --> 00:04:19,156 Speaker 1: we change our minds and why we change our minds. 66 00:04:19,836 --> 00:04:22,796 Speaker 1: On this show, I'll have intimate conversations with people who've 67 00:04:22,876 --> 00:04:26,996 Speaker 1: navigated extraordinary change, and hopefully their stories will get us 68 00:04:26,996 --> 00:04:30,636 Speaker 1: to think differently about change in our own lives. This 69 00:04:30,716 --> 00:04:57,276 Speaker 1: is a slight change of plans. Daryl didn't set out 70 00:04:57,316 --> 00:05:00,196 Speaker 1: to change anyone's mind. He was mostly just focused on 71 00:05:00,236 --> 00:05:03,516 Speaker 1: his music. But one night his life took an unexpected 72 00:05:03,556 --> 00:05:05,676 Speaker 1: turn when he was playing a show at a bar 73 00:05:05,876 --> 00:05:12,316 Speaker 1: called the Silver Dollar Lounge. 74 00:05:10,676 --> 00:05:14,516 Speaker 2: The silver Dollar Lounge at the time was an all 75 00:05:14,636 --> 00:05:17,796 Speaker 2: white lounge, and I say that not meaning that black 76 00:05:17,796 --> 00:05:20,516 Speaker 2: people could not go in, but meaning that they did 77 00:05:20,556 --> 00:05:23,116 Speaker 2: not go in by their own choice because they were 78 00:05:23,156 --> 00:05:26,196 Speaker 2: not welcome there. And when you go somewhere where you're 79 00:05:26,236 --> 00:05:30,796 Speaker 2: not welcome and alcohol is being served, sometimes it is 80 00:05:30,796 --> 00:05:33,676 Speaker 2: not made for a good combination, especially when you're outnumbered. 81 00:05:34,076 --> 00:05:36,636 Speaker 2: So we took a break after the first set, and 82 00:05:36,676 --> 00:05:38,876 Speaker 2: I was walking across the dance floor to go sit, 83 00:05:38,956 --> 00:05:41,796 Speaker 2: you know, with the bandmates, when somebody approached me from 84 00:05:41,836 --> 00:05:44,476 Speaker 2: behind and put their arm around my shoulder. Now I 85 00:05:44,516 --> 00:05:46,836 Speaker 2: don't know anybody in this place, so I'm turning around 86 00:05:46,836 --> 00:05:49,196 Speaker 2: to see who's touching me. And it was this gentleman, 87 00:05:49,316 --> 00:05:52,956 Speaker 2: maybe fifteen eighteen years older than me. And he's all excited. 88 00:05:53,036 --> 00:05:55,116 Speaker 2: He says, man, I shore like you're a piano playing. 89 00:05:55,956 --> 00:05:57,756 Speaker 2: This is the first time I ever heard a black 90 00:05:57,796 --> 00:06:01,916 Speaker 2: man play piano like Jerry Lee Lewis. And I told him, 91 00:06:01,916 --> 00:06:03,356 Speaker 2: I said, well, Jerry Lee got it from the same 92 00:06:03,396 --> 00:06:07,636 Speaker 2: place I did, from black blues and boogie woogie piano players. 93 00:06:07,756 --> 00:06:09,716 Speaker 2: Oh no, no, no, no, I never heard no black 94 00:06:09,756 --> 00:06:12,036 Speaker 2: man play like that except for you. Jerry Lee invented 95 00:06:12,076 --> 00:06:15,156 Speaker 2: that style. I said, look, I know Jerry Lee Lewis. 96 00:06:15,156 --> 00:06:17,236 Speaker 2: He's a good friend of mine. He's told me himself 97 00:06:17,236 --> 00:06:19,596 Speaker 2: where he'd learn how to play. The guy didn't buy 98 00:06:19,596 --> 00:06:22,716 Speaker 2: that either, but he was so fascinated with me that 99 00:06:23,076 --> 00:06:24,756 Speaker 2: he wanted me to come back to his table. He's 100 00:06:24,756 --> 00:06:27,036 Speaker 2: going to buy me a drink. So I don't drink, 101 00:06:27,036 --> 00:06:29,396 Speaker 2: but I agreed to have a cranberry juice. He bought it, 102 00:06:29,436 --> 00:06:32,076 Speaker 2: paid the waitress, and then he took his glass and 103 00:06:32,116 --> 00:06:35,796 Speaker 2: he clinked my glass and cheered me, and then he announces, 104 00:06:36,036 --> 00:06:37,836 Speaker 2: you know, this is the first time I ever sat 105 00:06:37,876 --> 00:06:40,836 Speaker 2: down with a black man and had a drink, so 106 00:06:40,956 --> 00:06:44,076 Speaker 2: innocently I asked him why, and he didn't answer me 107 00:06:44,116 --> 00:06:46,636 Speaker 2: at first. I asked him again, and his buddy sitting 108 00:06:46,676 --> 00:06:48,756 Speaker 2: next to him elbowed him and said tell him, tell him, 109 00:06:49,276 --> 00:06:52,476 Speaker 2: And the guy looked at me and said, I'm a 110 00:06:52,516 --> 00:06:56,156 Speaker 2: member of the Ku Klux Plan. Well, I burst out 111 00:06:56,236 --> 00:06:59,116 Speaker 2: laughing at him because now I did not believe him. 112 00:06:59,516 --> 00:07:02,116 Speaker 2: I thought he was pulling the joke on me. I'm laughing. 113 00:07:02,476 --> 00:07:05,196 Speaker 2: He goes inside his pocket, pulls out his wallet, flips 114 00:07:05,196 --> 00:07:09,676 Speaker 2: through it, and hands me his clan membership card. Recognize 115 00:07:09,676 --> 00:07:12,236 Speaker 2: the Plan insignia, which is a red circle with a 116 00:07:12,236 --> 00:07:14,676 Speaker 2: white cross and a red blood drop in the center 117 00:07:14,716 --> 00:07:17,996 Speaker 2: of the cross, And I'm thinking to myself, oh my goodness, 118 00:07:18,036 --> 00:07:20,356 Speaker 2: you know this is for real. So I stopped laughing. 119 00:07:20,916 --> 00:07:25,076 Speaker 2: But he was, you know, very friendly and very appreciative 120 00:07:25,516 --> 00:07:28,996 Speaker 2: of my music and all excited. He gave me his 121 00:07:29,076 --> 00:07:32,996 Speaker 2: phone number to you know, to call him whenever I 122 00:07:33,116 --> 00:07:35,516 Speaker 2: was to return to this bar with this band, and 123 00:07:35,556 --> 00:07:37,596 Speaker 2: so I'd call him every six weeks and say, hey, man, 124 00:07:37,636 --> 00:07:39,836 Speaker 2: you know I'm down there at the Silver dollar this weekend, 125 00:07:39,876 --> 00:07:40,356 Speaker 2: come on out. 126 00:07:40,756 --> 00:07:44,156 Speaker 1: You say it so nonchalantly, like so I called the guy. 127 00:07:44,236 --> 00:07:47,716 Speaker 1: It is remarkable that you called this person. And you know, 128 00:07:47,716 --> 00:07:51,076 Speaker 1: I don't think I'm alone in struggling to understand you know, 129 00:07:51,116 --> 00:07:53,076 Speaker 1: what was going through through your mind at this moment. 130 00:07:53,476 --> 00:07:56,636 Speaker 1: If someone told me that they were in the freaking clan, 131 00:07:57,156 --> 00:08:00,996 Speaker 1: I would certainly not call them back. In fact, I'd 132 00:08:00,996 --> 00:08:03,316 Speaker 1: probably just flee the scene. And I think this is 133 00:08:03,356 --> 00:08:04,356 Speaker 1: for pretty good reasons. 134 00:08:05,236 --> 00:08:08,076 Speaker 2: Well, you know, I was questioning myself for a second, 135 00:08:08,116 --> 00:08:10,476 Speaker 2: like what the hell at the my doing sitting here 136 00:08:10,756 --> 00:08:15,036 Speaker 2: with a klansman. But the guy was friendly. He disputed 137 00:08:15,476 --> 00:08:18,796 Speaker 2: the things that I had in mind of the image 138 00:08:18,836 --> 00:08:21,476 Speaker 2: of a typical clansman, and he wanted to share my 139 00:08:21,596 --> 00:08:24,756 Speaker 2: music with some of his fellow clansmen and clans women. 140 00:08:25,156 --> 00:08:26,756 Speaker 2: And they would you get on the dance floor and 141 00:08:26,836 --> 00:08:28,316 Speaker 2: dance to orro on music. You know, they didn't come 142 00:08:28,356 --> 00:08:30,036 Speaker 2: in robes and hoods, right, you know, they came in, 143 00:08:30,076 --> 00:08:31,116 Speaker 2: you know, regular street clothes. 144 00:08:31,916 --> 00:08:36,076 Speaker 1: This goes on for a year, an entire year. Daryl 145 00:08:36,076 --> 00:08:38,116 Speaker 1: would play a gig at this bar, and he would 146 00:08:38,116 --> 00:08:41,276 Speaker 1: invite clan members to watch him play. This is one 147 00:08:41,276 --> 00:08:45,276 Speaker 1: of those things that makes Daryl so unusual. I mean, 148 00:08:45,356 --> 00:08:47,756 Speaker 1: for me, a huge part of what makes someone who 149 00:08:47,796 --> 00:08:51,076 Speaker 1: they are is their belief system. And so if we 150 00:08:51,156 --> 00:08:54,076 Speaker 1: share the same taste in music, that's fine, that's great. 151 00:08:54,636 --> 00:08:57,916 Speaker 1: But if I then find out they're a flagrant racist, 152 00:08:58,116 --> 00:09:02,036 Speaker 1: that's going to fully eclipse everything else about them. So 153 00:09:02,156 --> 00:09:05,476 Speaker 1: how does Daryl look past that? He says, it's not 154 00:09:05,636 --> 00:09:08,556 Speaker 1: like that. He wasn't looking past it. He wanted to 155 00:09:08,636 --> 00:09:13,196 Speaker 1: learn from see. Darryl had spent his early childhood overseas 156 00:09:13,676 --> 00:09:16,596 Speaker 1: in a school he describes as a United Nations for 157 00:09:16,636 --> 00:09:20,476 Speaker 1: little kids. Race was always in the background, but when 158 00:09:20,476 --> 00:09:22,516 Speaker 1: he moved back to the States when he was ten, 159 00:09:22,916 --> 00:09:26,436 Speaker 1: he couldn't escape racism, and ever since then he's been 160 00:09:26,476 --> 00:09:28,276 Speaker 1: interested in why people hate. 161 00:09:29,316 --> 00:09:31,436 Speaker 2: I had had an experience at the age of ten 162 00:09:32,036 --> 00:09:34,676 Speaker 2: where some racist people threw rocks and bottles at me 163 00:09:34,796 --> 00:09:38,356 Speaker 2: during a parade in which I was the only black participant, 164 00:09:38,596 --> 00:09:42,076 Speaker 2: and never having had this happen to me before, I 165 00:09:42,156 --> 00:09:45,036 Speaker 2: was perplexed as to why people were doing this, and 166 00:09:45,076 --> 00:09:47,996 Speaker 2: when later my parents explained that it was racism, my 167 00:09:48,076 --> 00:09:51,436 Speaker 2: ten year old brain could not process the idea that 168 00:09:51,516 --> 00:09:54,116 Speaker 2: someone who had never seen me before who had never 169 00:09:54,156 --> 00:09:56,756 Speaker 2: spoken with me and knew nothing about me, would want 170 00:09:56,796 --> 00:09:59,276 Speaker 2: to inflict pain upon me for no other reason than 171 00:09:59,316 --> 00:10:02,036 Speaker 2: the color of my skin. You know, that just did 172 00:10:02,036 --> 00:10:04,796 Speaker 2: not compete with me. Well later, when I realized this 173 00:10:04,956 --> 00:10:07,556 Speaker 2: was true, there are people like that, I formed a 174 00:10:07,636 --> 00:10:10,436 Speaker 2: question in my mind, which was, how can you hate 175 00:10:10,476 --> 00:10:13,116 Speaker 2: me when you don't even know me? And some people 176 00:10:13,156 --> 00:10:14,676 Speaker 2: would just say, well, Darryl, you know that's just the 177 00:10:14,716 --> 00:10:16,836 Speaker 2: way it is. Well, no, it's not just the way 178 00:10:16,876 --> 00:10:19,156 Speaker 2: it is. There has to be a reason behind it. 179 00:10:19,596 --> 00:10:22,516 Speaker 2: Well it's always been that way. That was not good 180 00:10:22,596 --> 00:10:24,236 Speaker 2: enough for me. I want to get to the nucleus 181 00:10:24,236 --> 00:10:24,476 Speaker 2: of it. 182 00:10:25,676 --> 00:10:29,676 Speaker 1: So Daryl dedicates himself to answering this question. He devours 183 00:10:29,756 --> 00:10:33,636 Speaker 1: books about race and racism. He reads nearly every book 184 00:10:33,636 --> 00:10:37,396 Speaker 1: that exists on the clan, but he's still unsatisfied, so 185 00:10:37,436 --> 00:10:40,036 Speaker 1: he decides he wants to write his own book about 186 00:10:40,036 --> 00:10:40,436 Speaker 1: the clan. 187 00:10:41,516 --> 00:10:44,556 Speaker 2: All the books written on the clan except for mine, 188 00:10:45,276 --> 00:10:48,516 Speaker 2: have been written by white authors. You know, white authors 189 00:10:48,556 --> 00:10:51,436 Speaker 2: obviously have an easier time getting in contact with the 190 00:10:51,476 --> 00:10:55,036 Speaker 2: Klan and sitting down and not fearing any ramifications or whatever. 191 00:10:55,236 --> 00:10:58,276 Speaker 2: Or they might even join the clan undercover. A Klansman 192 00:10:58,356 --> 00:11:01,636 Speaker 2: would have a different perspective sitting there talking to a 193 00:11:01,636 --> 00:11:03,716 Speaker 2: black person than he would a white person. 194 00:11:04,636 --> 00:11:07,596 Speaker 1: And how do you feel that perspective would have been different. 195 00:11:07,716 --> 00:11:10,236 Speaker 2: Because he's sitting there telling the person that he hates 196 00:11:10,716 --> 00:11:13,756 Speaker 2: why he hates him. So now he's having to face 197 00:11:13,836 --> 00:11:17,476 Speaker 2: me and face those same questions. You know that somebody 198 00:11:17,476 --> 00:11:20,836 Speaker 2: would ask or even different questions that a white interviewer 199 00:11:20,996 --> 00:11:24,116 Speaker 2: journalist would not ask because they don't think of him, 200 00:11:24,116 --> 00:11:25,996 Speaker 2: because they don't feel the things the same things that 201 00:11:26,036 --> 00:11:26,516 Speaker 2: I feel. 202 00:11:27,636 --> 00:11:30,956 Speaker 1: As Darryl starts researching for his book, it suddenly dawns 203 00:11:30,996 --> 00:11:34,316 Speaker 1: on him he already knows someone in the Klan, that 204 00:11:34,396 --> 00:11:37,436 Speaker 1: guy from the Silver Dollar Lounge. So he goes on 205 00:11:37,476 --> 00:11:40,076 Speaker 1: a mission to track him down. It takes a while, 206 00:11:40,196 --> 00:11:42,236 Speaker 1: but eventually he finds the guy's dress. 207 00:11:43,116 --> 00:11:45,876 Speaker 2: And I knocked on the door, you know, unannounced, and 208 00:11:45,956 --> 00:11:47,996 Speaker 2: he opens the door and sees me. He goes, Daryl, 209 00:11:48,116 --> 00:11:50,156 Speaker 2: you know, what are you doing here? And look, he 210 00:11:50,156 --> 00:11:51,996 Speaker 2: looked up and down the hallway to see if I 211 00:11:52,036 --> 00:11:54,396 Speaker 2: brought anybody with me. So it was more him that 212 00:11:54,396 --> 00:11:57,956 Speaker 2: who was intimidated than me. And when he stepped out 213 00:11:57,996 --> 00:12:01,116 Speaker 2: of his apartment, I stepped in, so he turns around, 214 00:12:01,196 --> 00:12:03,916 Speaker 2: comes back in. So now we're standing inside his apartment 215 00:12:04,236 --> 00:12:06,356 Speaker 2: and he says, you know what's going on. You're still playing? 216 00:12:06,356 --> 00:12:09,596 Speaker 2: What's going on? I said, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm still playing. Listen, 217 00:12:10,036 --> 00:12:12,836 Speaker 2: I need to talk to you about the Klan. He says, 218 00:12:12,876 --> 00:12:15,156 Speaker 2: the Klan. I said, yeah. He goes, well, I quit. 219 00:12:15,756 --> 00:12:18,356 Speaker 2: I quit a while back. I said, well, you know, 220 00:12:18,356 --> 00:12:20,996 Speaker 2: where's all your clan stuff? He says, well, they came 221 00:12:21,036 --> 00:12:22,956 Speaker 2: and got it. And I said, what do you mean 222 00:12:22,996 --> 00:12:25,796 Speaker 2: they came and got your robin hood? Don't you own it? 223 00:12:26,116 --> 00:12:28,556 Speaker 2: And he explained to me, when you join the Klan, 224 00:12:28,996 --> 00:12:30,876 Speaker 2: if you have the money to pay for it, you 225 00:12:30,916 --> 00:12:33,796 Speaker 2: can purchase your robin Hood and it's yours to keep forever. 226 00:12:34,356 --> 00:12:36,676 Speaker 2: If you cannot afford it at the time, you can 227 00:12:36,716 --> 00:12:38,716 Speaker 2: still take it home with you, but you put a 228 00:12:38,716 --> 00:12:41,476 Speaker 2: little extra money in every time you pay your dues 229 00:12:41,836 --> 00:12:43,956 Speaker 2: until you pay it off, sort of like Lagway kind 230 00:12:43,996 --> 00:12:44,396 Speaker 2: of thing. 231 00:12:44,676 --> 00:12:48,276 Speaker 1: A bizarre financial aid system within the Klan. Love it, yes, exactly, 232 00:12:48,476 --> 00:12:51,316 Speaker 1: equal opportunity for everyone. He's racist, right, that's right? 233 00:12:51,316 --> 00:12:57,036 Speaker 2: Okay, absolutely so. Anyway, he said that they came and 234 00:12:57,076 --> 00:12:58,956 Speaker 2: got it, but when they came to get it. He 235 00:12:58,996 --> 00:13:02,836 Speaker 2: could not find the mask, and he has since found 236 00:13:02,836 --> 00:13:05,356 Speaker 2: it and he needed to return it. I said, well, 237 00:13:05,356 --> 00:13:07,756 Speaker 2: can I see it. So he goes down the hallway, 238 00:13:08,116 --> 00:13:10,636 Speaker 2: comes back and hands me the mask, and I said 239 00:13:10,676 --> 00:13:14,196 Speaker 2: to him, I said, do you know Roger Kelly. He says, yeah, 240 00:13:14,356 --> 00:13:17,516 Speaker 2: Roger was my Grand Dragon. I know him. And I said, well, listen, 241 00:13:17,556 --> 00:13:19,356 Speaker 2: I need you to hook me up with mister Kelly. 242 00:13:19,716 --> 00:13:21,396 Speaker 2: I want you to interview him. I'm going to write 243 00:13:21,396 --> 00:13:23,916 Speaker 2: a book on the clan. Now, let me explain how 244 00:13:23,956 --> 00:13:26,476 Speaker 2: the hierarchy of the plan works. You understand these terms. 245 00:13:27,196 --> 00:13:29,516 Speaker 2: We would call a state leader a governor. They call 246 00:13:29,596 --> 00:13:32,996 Speaker 2: that the Grand Dragon, a mayor. That person is known 247 00:13:33,036 --> 00:13:37,396 Speaker 2: as the Exalted Cyclops. Anybody on the great level is yes. 248 00:13:37,516 --> 00:13:40,156 Speaker 1: Sorry, the self importance of these names, this is truly. 249 00:13:40,396 --> 00:13:44,836 Speaker 2: Well yeah, but see, that's also what attracts people, because 250 00:13:44,876 --> 00:13:47,316 Speaker 2: you know, they get titles, they feel important. Yes, it's 251 00:13:47,316 --> 00:13:50,236 Speaker 2: a sense of self importance, you know, because they're not 252 00:13:50,316 --> 00:13:52,756 Speaker 2: getting that from the society in which they live. So 253 00:13:53,076 --> 00:13:55,796 Speaker 2: you know, this brotherhood, this gang, if you will, gives 254 00:13:55,836 --> 00:13:59,036 Speaker 2: them those things. So at the time, Roger Kelly was 255 00:13:59,076 --> 00:14:01,676 Speaker 2: the Grand Dragon state leader from Maryland. So I said, 256 00:14:01,716 --> 00:14:03,916 Speaker 2: I'll tell you what you need to return this mask? 257 00:14:04,036 --> 00:14:07,316 Speaker 2: Right he said, yeah, I said, give me Roger Kelly's 258 00:14:07,356 --> 00:14:09,916 Speaker 2: phone number and his address, and I'll go and return 259 00:14:09,956 --> 00:14:12,556 Speaker 2: it for you. And he snapped that thing right out 260 00:14:12,596 --> 00:14:15,076 Speaker 2: of my hand and said, in no way. And so 261 00:14:15,316 --> 00:14:17,996 Speaker 2: I begged and plead it with him. Well, he finally 262 00:14:18,076 --> 00:14:20,156 Speaker 2: gave it to me on the condition that I not 263 00:14:20,236 --> 00:14:23,516 Speaker 2: revealed to mister Kelly where I got it. And he 264 00:14:23,596 --> 00:14:25,636 Speaker 2: warned me, he said, Daryl, do not go to Roger 265 00:14:25,716 --> 00:14:28,796 Speaker 2: Kelly's house. Roger Kelly will kill you. And I said, well, 266 00:14:28,796 --> 00:14:31,476 Speaker 2: that's the whole reason why I need to talk to 267 00:14:31,476 --> 00:14:34,036 Speaker 2: mister Kelly. I need to know why would he kill me? 268 00:14:34,836 --> 00:14:37,396 Speaker 2: What is going on in his mind when he sees me. 269 00:14:37,876 --> 00:14:39,156 Speaker 2: I have to understand this. 270 00:14:39,756 --> 00:14:42,436 Speaker 1: You did realize that you might not get the answer 271 00:14:42,516 --> 00:14:48,076 Speaker 1: to the question if in fact the dangerous part happened first, right, true, this. 272 00:14:48,116 --> 00:14:52,396 Speaker 2: Is true, But I was thinking, you know that I 273 00:14:52,436 --> 00:14:55,156 Speaker 2: would prevail. I'm the eternal optimist if you will. 274 00:14:55,916 --> 00:14:59,276 Speaker 1: Well, I am not the eternal optimist. And Daryl's decision 275 00:14:59,396 --> 00:15:04,316 Speaker 1: feels incredibly risky. But anyway, he has a secretary, Mary 276 00:15:04,596 --> 00:15:07,436 Speaker 1: call and schedule the interview, and he gives her one 277 00:15:07,596 --> 00:15:10,516 Speaker 1: important instruction, do not tell. 278 00:15:10,396 --> 00:15:13,316 Speaker 2: Him that I'm black, and see if you would consent 279 00:15:13,596 --> 00:15:16,876 Speaker 2: to sitting down and giving her boss an interview. I 280 00:15:16,916 --> 00:15:19,996 Speaker 2: figured he might pick up in my voice that I'm black, 281 00:15:20,436 --> 00:15:22,556 Speaker 2: and I didn't want him to hang up with the 282 00:15:22,556 --> 00:15:24,716 Speaker 2: phones and am I talking to you? And my whole 283 00:15:24,716 --> 00:15:26,676 Speaker 2: project would have ended before they ever got started. 284 00:15:27,556 --> 00:15:30,356 Speaker 1: Roger Kelly agrees to meet for an interview one evening 285 00:15:30,436 --> 00:15:33,996 Speaker 1: at a nearby motel. Darrel gets to the motel early 286 00:15:34,036 --> 00:15:37,436 Speaker 1: with Mary. He's not sure if Roger will even agree 287 00:15:37,436 --> 00:15:39,676 Speaker 1: to step foot in the room, but if he does, 288 00:15:40,156 --> 00:15:43,236 Speaker 1: Daryl wants to be hospitable. He asked Mary to fill 289 00:15:43,276 --> 00:15:45,956 Speaker 1: up the ice bucket and buy some sodas, and then 290 00:15:45,996 --> 00:15:48,956 Speaker 1: they start arranging the room. There's not much to arrange. 291 00:15:49,076 --> 00:15:52,916 Speaker 1: There's the ice bucket, a table, two chairs, and Daryl's 292 00:15:52,916 --> 00:15:55,596 Speaker 1: canvas bag which has his tape recorder and a Bible. 293 00:15:56,116 --> 00:15:59,396 Speaker 2: The Klan claims to be a Christian organization and they 294 00:15:59,436 --> 00:16:03,516 Speaker 2: claim that the Bible preaches a racial separation. Now, in 295 00:16:03,516 --> 00:16:05,956 Speaker 2: my reading of the Bible, I have never seen anything 296 00:16:05,996 --> 00:16:07,796 Speaker 2: like that in there. So I want to be able 297 00:16:07,796 --> 00:16:10,236 Speaker 2: to pull up my Bible and handed to him and said, here, 298 00:16:10,236 --> 00:16:14,516 Speaker 2: mister Kelly, please show me chapter and verse where it 299 00:16:14,596 --> 00:16:18,076 Speaker 2: says blacks and whites must be separate. So I'm all prepared, 300 00:16:18,156 --> 00:16:20,596 Speaker 2: right right on time, right to the minute. Five point 301 00:16:20,596 --> 00:16:24,356 Speaker 2: fifteen knock, knock, knock on the door. In Walts what 302 00:16:24,476 --> 00:16:29,796 Speaker 2: is known as the Grand Nighthawk. Nighthawk means bodyguard security. 303 00:16:30,316 --> 00:16:33,876 Speaker 2: He's dressed in military camouflage and he has that clan 304 00:16:34,036 --> 00:16:36,716 Speaker 2: patch on his chest on one side, on the other 305 00:16:36,756 --> 00:16:40,196 Speaker 2: side of his chest or the initials KKK and embroidered 306 00:16:40,196 --> 00:16:42,796 Speaker 2: on his cap. It said Knights of the ku Klux Klan, 307 00:16:43,396 --> 00:16:45,756 Speaker 2: and on his hip. He had a semi automatic handgun 308 00:16:46,076 --> 00:16:50,196 Speaker 2: in a holster. He comes in, mister Kelly is walking 309 00:16:50,276 --> 00:16:54,196 Speaker 2: directly behind him, carrying a briefcase in a dark blue 310 00:16:54,236 --> 00:16:57,516 Speaker 2: suit and tie. And the Nighthawk turned the corner and 311 00:16:57,636 --> 00:17:02,596 Speaker 2: saw me and just froze in his trap. So mister 312 00:17:02,636 --> 00:17:05,516 Speaker 2: Kelly slammed into his back and knocked this guy forward. 313 00:17:05,836 --> 00:17:07,916 Speaker 2: And now that they both are stumbling around trying to 314 00:17:08,156 --> 00:17:10,956 Speaker 2: regain their balance, and they're like looking all around the 315 00:17:11,036 --> 00:17:13,876 Speaker 2: room like, uh, something's not right here. And I'm just 316 00:17:13,916 --> 00:17:16,516 Speaker 2: sitting at the table looking at their faces, and I 317 00:17:16,556 --> 00:17:20,276 Speaker 2: could read their faces like a billboard. Their faces were 318 00:17:20,316 --> 00:17:22,956 Speaker 2: saying to me, did the desk clerk give us the 319 00:17:22,956 --> 00:17:26,396 Speaker 2: wrong room number? Do we misunderstand something? Or is this 320 00:17:26,436 --> 00:17:29,396 Speaker 2: an ambush? So, you know, I saw the apprehension, and 321 00:17:29,436 --> 00:17:31,876 Speaker 2: so I stood up and I displayed both of my 322 00:17:31,996 --> 00:17:34,716 Speaker 2: palms to show I had nothing in my hands, and 323 00:17:34,796 --> 00:17:38,196 Speaker 2: I walked forward. I extended my right hand and I said, hi, 324 00:17:38,236 --> 00:17:39,796 Speaker 2: mister Kelly, I'm Darryl Davis. 325 00:17:43,996 --> 00:17:46,596 Speaker 1: We'll be right back with a slight change of plants. 326 00:17:54,076 --> 00:17:57,116 Speaker 1: You're listening to a slight change of plans. I'm Maya Shunker. 327 00:17:57,676 --> 00:18:00,676 Speaker 1: So there they are, Roger Kelly, the Grand Dragon of 328 00:18:00,716 --> 00:18:05,276 Speaker 1: the Klan, face to face with Darryl Davis. Daryl reaches 329 00:18:05,316 --> 00:18:08,636 Speaker 1: out to shake Roger's hand and Roger shakes his hand back. 330 00:18:09,276 --> 00:18:11,676 Speaker 1: It seems like the interview is going to happen, but 331 00:18:11,796 --> 00:18:14,836 Speaker 1: before he can dive in with his first question, Roger 332 00:18:14,916 --> 00:18:17,916 Speaker 1: asked to see Daryl's ID. So Daryl hands in his 333 00:18:17,996 --> 00:18:19,436 Speaker 1: driver's license and. 334 00:18:19,396 --> 00:18:21,476 Speaker 2: Then he looks at it and he says, oh, you 335 00:18:21,556 --> 00:18:24,556 Speaker 2: live on such and such street. And so now I'm wondering, 336 00:18:24,556 --> 00:18:27,156 Speaker 2: why is this man reading my address? You know? Is 337 00:18:27,156 --> 00:18:28,836 Speaker 2: he going to come burn across at my house or 338 00:18:28,916 --> 00:18:31,356 Speaker 2: you know what. So that had me a little concerned, 339 00:18:31,676 --> 00:18:33,116 Speaker 2: but I didn't want to let him know that he 340 00:18:33,156 --> 00:18:35,196 Speaker 2: had rattled me a little bit, and so I said 341 00:18:35,236 --> 00:18:37,636 Speaker 2: to him, I said, yes, mister Kelly, that is where 342 00:18:37,636 --> 00:18:40,156 Speaker 2: I live and you live at and I named his 343 00:18:40,236 --> 00:18:41,596 Speaker 2: house number and his street. 344 00:18:41,636 --> 00:18:43,156 Speaker 1: It's a pretty good mic drop line. 345 00:18:43,396 --> 00:18:45,876 Speaker 2: Yeah, because you know, if you come visit me, I'm 346 00:18:45,876 --> 00:18:48,236 Speaker 2: going to come visit you. So you know, maybe it's 347 00:18:48,236 --> 00:18:50,756 Speaker 2: better that we just confine all this visiting to this 348 00:18:50,796 --> 00:18:56,236 Speaker 2: motel room. So anyway, we started with this interview. That's cool. 349 00:18:57,516 --> 00:18:59,876 Speaker 1: This is the actual cassette tape from the meeting. 350 00:19:00,396 --> 00:19:04,076 Speaker 2: Okay, first, what got you interested in the qklux Klan. 351 00:19:04,876 --> 00:19:06,756 Speaker 2: I was always interest as a kid. You know, when 352 00:19:06,796 --> 00:19:08,236 Speaker 2: I was going to school, I was interest. I was 353 00:19:08,836 --> 00:19:11,996 Speaker 2: fast native by the Rachel was the rogues across burning 354 00:19:12,076 --> 00:19:15,356 Speaker 2: and things like him. Hey, and did you have a family 355 00:19:15,356 --> 00:19:16,876 Speaker 2: in the plant? Was like a friend introduced to the 356 00:19:16,956 --> 00:19:20,636 Speaker 2: kond grandmother plan years ago. You know. We began talking 357 00:19:21,076 --> 00:19:23,396 Speaker 2: and every time my cassette would run out of tape, 358 00:19:23,796 --> 00:19:26,556 Speaker 2: I'd reach down into my bag to get a fresh cassette. 359 00:19:26,996 --> 00:19:29,436 Speaker 2: Or if mister Kelly tried to make some biblical point. 360 00:19:29,716 --> 00:19:32,036 Speaker 2: I'd reach down in my bag and pull out the Bible. 361 00:19:32,396 --> 00:19:35,556 Speaker 2: The nighthawk was standing to mister Kelly's right at full attention, 362 00:19:36,316 --> 00:19:40,996 Speaker 2: and every time I reached down, the nighthawk reached up 363 00:19:41,036 --> 00:19:45,396 Speaker 2: to his gun. Well after about an hour or so, 364 00:19:45,836 --> 00:19:48,596 Speaker 2: the bodyguard relaxed. He realized there was no threat in 365 00:19:48,596 --> 00:19:50,436 Speaker 2: the bag, and I went in and out of the bag. 366 00:19:50,476 --> 00:19:53,276 Speaker 2: He didn't move. A little over an hour into this, 367 00:19:53,836 --> 00:19:56,156 Speaker 2: mister Kelly and I were just have, you know, casual conversation, 368 00:19:56,796 --> 00:20:00,676 Speaker 2: and there was a quick, short noise that occurred out 369 00:20:00,676 --> 00:20:05,956 Speaker 2: of nowhere. It sounded like this, And because it came 370 00:20:05,996 --> 00:20:09,556 Speaker 2: out of nowhere suddenly, and it was so fast and 371 00:20:09,596 --> 00:20:13,036 Speaker 2: so short, my ear could not discern it. So I 372 00:20:13,116 --> 00:20:17,196 Speaker 2: perceived it to be a threatening noise. I knew that 373 00:20:17,236 --> 00:20:20,276 Speaker 2: mister Kelly had made this noise. How did I know that? 374 00:20:20,756 --> 00:20:24,836 Speaker 2: Because I didn't make it, and I feared for my life. 375 00:20:25,556 --> 00:20:28,436 Speaker 2: I'm not armed, My secretary is not armed. The only 376 00:20:28,436 --> 00:20:31,196 Speaker 2: person who I know for sure is armed is the nighthawk. 377 00:20:31,636 --> 00:20:33,636 Speaker 2: I can see his gun on his hip. I don't 378 00:20:33,676 --> 00:20:35,476 Speaker 2: know if mister Kelly Carey as went up under his 379 00:20:35,556 --> 00:20:37,876 Speaker 2: suit jacket or not. All I know is, you know, 380 00:20:37,916 --> 00:20:40,876 Speaker 2: I don't want to die. I'm looking right into mister 381 00:20:40,956 --> 00:20:44,036 Speaker 2: Kelly's eyes. I mean, I'm just like inches away from him, 382 00:20:44,436 --> 00:20:47,436 Speaker 2: and his eyes were fixated on mine. Mine were fixated 383 00:20:47,476 --> 00:20:50,316 Speaker 2: on his. Neither one of us said a word. My 384 00:20:50,396 --> 00:20:52,956 Speaker 2: eyes were saying to him, what did you just do? 385 00:20:53,756 --> 00:20:55,796 Speaker 2: And I realized his eyes were saying to me, what 386 00:20:55,876 --> 00:20:58,316 Speaker 2: did you just do? And the nighthawk was looking back 387 00:20:58,356 --> 00:21:00,596 Speaker 2: and forth between both of us, like, what did either 388 00:21:00,636 --> 00:21:04,556 Speaker 2: one of y'all just do? Well. Mary was sitting to 389 00:21:04,596 --> 00:21:07,276 Speaker 2: my left on top of the dresser because there were 390 00:21:07,316 --> 00:21:09,836 Speaker 2: no more chairs in the room, and she realized what 391 00:21:09,876 --> 00:21:13,276 Speaker 2: had happened, and she began explaining it to us. When 392 00:21:13,316 --> 00:21:19,436 Speaker 2: it happened again, the ice in the ice bucket had 393 00:21:19,476 --> 00:21:23,156 Speaker 2: begun melting, and the cans of soda pop were shifting 394 00:21:23,236 --> 00:21:23,836 Speaker 2: down the ice. 395 00:21:24,716 --> 00:21:24,996 Speaker 1: Wow. 396 00:21:25,556 --> 00:21:27,156 Speaker 2: And then, of course when she explained it and it 397 00:21:27,196 --> 00:21:30,396 Speaker 2: happened again, you know, we all began laughing. We all 398 00:21:30,436 --> 00:21:34,356 Speaker 2: began laughing at the same thing. Everybody in that room 399 00:21:34,876 --> 00:21:38,996 Speaker 2: became human in that moment. We all feared, We all 400 00:21:39,036 --> 00:21:43,036 Speaker 2: feared each other. Somebody could have gotten shot over an 401 00:21:43,076 --> 00:21:45,956 Speaker 2: ice cube. All right, Just think about that for a second. 402 00:21:48,196 --> 00:21:52,116 Speaker 1: After this interview, Daryl and Roger keep in touch. Daryl 403 00:21:52,196 --> 00:21:55,116 Speaker 1: is still curious about Roger's perspective and how it might 404 00:21:55,156 --> 00:21:58,756 Speaker 1: answer the question Daryl's been asking for decades, how can 405 00:21:58,796 --> 00:22:01,436 Speaker 1: you hate me if you don't even know me? And 406 00:22:01,516 --> 00:22:04,276 Speaker 1: now the two weren't actually getting to know each other. 407 00:22:05,636 --> 00:22:08,396 Speaker 1: Was there a point where you thought, hey, wait a second, 408 00:22:09,196 --> 00:22:12,276 Speaker 1: I might actually be able to get this Roger Kelly 409 00:22:12,316 --> 00:22:13,716 Speaker 1: guy to change his mind about this. 410 00:22:14,516 --> 00:22:18,156 Speaker 2: Here's the thing, Maya. I never set out to change anybody, 411 00:22:18,436 --> 00:22:20,996 Speaker 2: not the first time, by any means, because you know, 412 00:22:21,436 --> 00:22:24,196 Speaker 2: I never expected anybody to change. All I wanted to 413 00:22:24,236 --> 00:22:26,916 Speaker 2: know was how can you hate me when you don't 414 00:22:26,956 --> 00:22:28,836 Speaker 2: even know me? That's all I want to know. And 415 00:22:29,196 --> 00:22:32,516 Speaker 2: I never expected to see these people again. But when 416 00:22:32,516 --> 00:22:35,796 Speaker 2: you're sitting there, one on one with somebody, it's hard 417 00:22:35,836 --> 00:22:38,556 Speaker 2: to hate them. That's a human being. It's hard to 418 00:22:38,596 --> 00:22:40,916 Speaker 2: hate them, and it's hard for them to hate you, 419 00:22:41,156 --> 00:22:42,196 Speaker 2: even though they may try. 420 00:22:42,876 --> 00:22:45,036 Speaker 1: Was there something specific that he did or that he 421 00:22:45,156 --> 00:22:49,276 Speaker 1: said where you saw that there was an inn Yeah. 422 00:22:49,396 --> 00:22:55,876 Speaker 2: I began noticing changes in his behavior, in his language. 423 00:22:56,596 --> 00:22:59,196 Speaker 2: He'd been to my house. His bodyguard would come with 424 00:22:59,276 --> 00:23:01,676 Speaker 2: him initially, and we would have lunch or dinner at 425 00:23:01,676 --> 00:23:04,396 Speaker 2: my table. I never got invited to his house, But 426 00:23:04,436 --> 00:23:08,156 Speaker 2: then when he became Imperial Wizard, he began inviting me 427 00:23:08,196 --> 00:23:11,236 Speaker 2: to his house. And already he was coming down to 428 00:23:11,276 --> 00:23:13,996 Speaker 2: my house without without his bodyguard. He trusted me that much. 429 00:23:14,516 --> 00:23:19,036 Speaker 1: This goes on for over five years. Eventually, Roger quits 430 00:23:19,156 --> 00:23:22,556 Speaker 1: the Klan, but he doesn't simply step down and hand 431 00:23:22,596 --> 00:23:26,156 Speaker 1: it over to someone else. He shuts down his entire chapter, 432 00:23:27,036 --> 00:23:29,636 Speaker 1: and he cites his friendship with Daryl as being the 433 00:23:29,676 --> 00:23:33,996 Speaker 1: reason Darryl since inspired over two hundred people to leave 434 00:23:33,996 --> 00:23:37,996 Speaker 1: white supremacist groups. And Darryl's story of changing people's minds 435 00:23:38,076 --> 00:23:40,836 Speaker 1: doesn't end there. He's still doing this kind of work 436 00:23:40,876 --> 00:23:43,516 Speaker 1: today all over the world, and I wanted to dig 437 00:23:43,516 --> 00:23:46,436 Speaker 1: in deeper on his approach. I know you don't like 438 00:23:46,636 --> 00:23:49,476 Speaker 1: saying that you change people's minds, right, You inspire them 439 00:23:49,476 --> 00:23:51,156 Speaker 1: to change their own minds. So when it comes to 440 00:23:51,236 --> 00:23:54,236 Speaker 1: inspiring them to change their own minds, did you have 441 00:23:54,276 --> 00:23:56,916 Speaker 1: to adapt your approach at all when dealing with different 442 00:23:57,076 --> 00:23:57,796 Speaker 1: types of folks? 443 00:23:58,756 --> 00:24:02,556 Speaker 2: Absolutely? Because you know, just like if somebody you know 444 00:24:02,596 --> 00:24:05,796 Speaker 2: you're a musician and you play violin, And I don't 445 00:24:05,796 --> 00:24:07,196 Speaker 2: know if you're right handed or left handed. 446 00:24:07,356 --> 00:24:09,476 Speaker 1: Left handed, hey, shout out all the. 447 00:24:09,436 --> 00:24:13,596 Speaker 2: Left these Some people are wired left handed, some people 448 00:24:13,596 --> 00:24:16,596 Speaker 2: are wired right handed. It doesn't make one person better 449 00:24:16,636 --> 00:24:18,436 Speaker 2: than the other. It just happens to be how they 450 00:24:18,436 --> 00:24:23,636 Speaker 2: are wired. Likewise, how we make decisions depends upon how 451 00:24:23,636 --> 00:24:27,556 Speaker 2: we're wired. Some people are wired to make decisions based 452 00:24:27,636 --> 00:24:32,876 Speaker 2: upon their emotions. Others make decisions based upon their logic. 453 00:24:33,476 --> 00:24:39,396 Speaker 2: So first you determine how does somebody decide something. If 454 00:24:39,476 --> 00:24:43,356 Speaker 2: they if they make decisions based upon emotion, then there's 455 00:24:43,476 --> 00:24:46,156 Speaker 2: no way in heck you're going to get to get 456 00:24:46,156 --> 00:24:49,876 Speaker 2: them to see your point if you bring a logical perspective. 457 00:24:50,596 --> 00:24:53,236 Speaker 2: The same thing, if you're dealing with a scientist or 458 00:24:53,276 --> 00:24:57,236 Speaker 2: somebody who deals in data and logic and evidence, don't 459 00:24:57,236 --> 00:24:59,556 Speaker 2: come with an emotional argument. You know, then I ain't 460 00:24:59,556 --> 00:25:01,596 Speaker 2: even going to listen to you. Show them the data, 461 00:25:01,636 --> 00:25:04,556 Speaker 2: show them the stats, the test results. So you know, 462 00:25:04,636 --> 00:25:07,156 Speaker 2: you have to go to where they are. And oftentimes 463 00:25:07,396 --> 00:25:09,756 Speaker 2: we miss that, we don't understand in that because we 464 00:25:09,796 --> 00:25:12,916 Speaker 2: haven't taken the time. I've seen it happen time and 465 00:25:12,996 --> 00:25:18,196 Speaker 2: time again. So a klansman comes into my room to 466 00:25:18,276 --> 00:25:21,676 Speaker 2: be interviewed or whatever we meet. As soon as he 467 00:25:21,796 --> 00:25:25,636 Speaker 2: or she sees me, the wall goes right up. You 468 00:25:25,716 --> 00:25:30,356 Speaker 2: cannot impart any intelligent information to them when their wall 469 00:25:30,476 --> 00:25:32,596 Speaker 2: is up, because when their wall is up, their ears 470 00:25:32,636 --> 00:25:35,636 Speaker 2: are plugged and they're shutting you out. Your mission is 471 00:25:35,676 --> 00:25:39,476 Speaker 2: to bring the wall down. So I'm sitting there two 472 00:25:39,516 --> 00:25:42,356 Speaker 2: feet from the guy, and he's telling me that I'm 473 00:25:42,356 --> 00:25:46,076 Speaker 2: a criminal and that I'm lazy, and that I'm unintelligent, 474 00:25:46,476 --> 00:25:50,156 Speaker 2: basing all of this based on my black skin. So 475 00:25:51,396 --> 00:25:55,236 Speaker 2: when he's done radiating all this vitriol, his wall has 476 00:25:55,276 --> 00:25:58,516 Speaker 2: come down because I haven't pushed back, and he's curious 477 00:25:58,556 --> 00:26:00,796 Speaker 2: as to why I haven't pushed back, because he's so 478 00:26:00,876 --> 00:26:04,556 Speaker 2: accustomed to being pushed back on and so now I've 479 00:26:04,596 --> 00:26:08,116 Speaker 2: thrown him off his game and he wants to know, well, 480 00:26:08,276 --> 00:26:10,756 Speaker 2: how do I feel about it all this? I could 481 00:26:10,756 --> 00:26:15,396 Speaker 2: go on the offense and attack him verbally and say, no, 482 00:26:15,756 --> 00:26:18,796 Speaker 2: you are the criminal. You are the ones hanging black 483 00:26:18,796 --> 00:26:22,156 Speaker 2: men from trees and bombing black churches and dragging black 484 00:26:22,196 --> 00:26:24,716 Speaker 2: men behind pickup trucks, and I would be one hundred 485 00:26:24,716 --> 00:26:28,236 Speaker 2: percent correct. But rather than go on the offense, because 486 00:26:28,276 --> 00:26:30,356 Speaker 2: if I did that, that wall would go right back 487 00:26:30,436 --> 00:26:32,996 Speaker 2: up and he wouldn't hear a word I'm saying. Instead 488 00:26:33,036 --> 00:26:35,596 Speaker 2: of going on the offense, I go on the defense, 489 00:26:36,476 --> 00:26:40,196 Speaker 2: and Maya, here's what happens. He goes home and at 490 00:26:40,196 --> 00:26:42,236 Speaker 2: the end of the day, like we all do, we 491 00:26:42,356 --> 00:26:45,196 Speaker 2: reflect on what transpired during the day before we go 492 00:26:45,276 --> 00:26:47,996 Speaker 2: to bed. He thinks, Man, you know, I had a 493 00:26:48,036 --> 00:26:51,316 Speaker 2: three hour conversation today with a black guy, you know, 494 00:26:51,356 --> 00:26:53,116 Speaker 2: and we didn't come to blows. You know, we might 495 00:26:53,116 --> 00:26:55,356 Speaker 2: have gotten a little loud, but we didn't come to blows. 496 00:26:55,836 --> 00:26:59,356 Speaker 2: And in most cases with me, most people have changed 497 00:26:59,396 --> 00:27:00,276 Speaker 2: their perspectives. 498 00:27:01,036 --> 00:27:04,036 Speaker 1: So I don't think many people in their everyday lives 499 00:27:04,036 --> 00:27:05,956 Speaker 1: are going to be interacting with members of the Klan. 500 00:27:06,036 --> 00:27:09,756 Speaker 1: Obviously that many of us, many lives listeners of this 501 00:27:09,836 --> 00:27:13,996 Speaker 1: podcast do encounter racism and prejudice on a daily basis. 502 00:27:14,036 --> 00:27:16,836 Speaker 1: And you know, when I first heard about your story, 503 00:27:16,916 --> 00:27:20,676 Speaker 1: I thought, Wow, if this man can convince clan members 504 00:27:20,716 --> 00:27:24,156 Speaker 1: to leave, then anything is possible. But it feels like 505 00:27:24,556 --> 00:27:26,876 Speaker 1: maybe things are a little bit more complicated than that, right, 506 00:27:26,956 --> 00:27:30,276 Speaker 1: because in order to get someone to be less racist, 507 00:27:30,716 --> 00:27:34,316 Speaker 1: a necessary step is for them to identify that they 508 00:27:34,396 --> 00:27:38,236 Speaker 1: are in fact being racist, and clan members are already 509 00:27:38,316 --> 00:27:42,356 Speaker 1: brazen and celebratory in their racism. But if you were 510 00:27:42,396 --> 00:27:44,916 Speaker 1: to challenge a mom or a dad who says in private, 511 00:27:45,036 --> 00:27:47,796 Speaker 1: you know that they prefer their daughter not marry a 512 00:27:47,836 --> 00:27:51,276 Speaker 1: black man, they might not be willing to acknowledge this 513 00:27:51,396 --> 00:27:54,516 Speaker 1: prejudice within themselves. And so I'm curious to know what 514 00:27:54,636 --> 00:27:57,396 Speaker 1: advice you'd give to people who are trying to help 515 00:27:57,476 --> 00:28:01,276 Speaker 1: those around them simply acknowledge their own prejudices. 516 00:28:03,596 --> 00:28:06,676 Speaker 2: BIA sending down saying hey, let's let's not have a debate, 517 00:28:07,076 --> 00:28:10,436 Speaker 2: let's have a conversation. For example, just the other day, 518 00:28:11,436 --> 00:28:14,796 Speaker 2: a very good friend of mine his fellow musician, and 519 00:28:15,116 --> 00:28:17,516 Speaker 2: we both like music of the fifties, you know, Elvis, Presley, 520 00:28:17,596 --> 00:28:21,916 Speaker 2: Chuck Berry, all that stuff, And he posted on Facebook, 521 00:28:23,156 --> 00:28:26,596 Speaker 2: I wish we could return to the mindset of the fifties, 522 00:28:27,116 --> 00:28:29,676 Speaker 2: and all these people, you know, gave him a thumbs 523 00:28:29,756 --> 00:28:32,036 Speaker 2: up and likes and all that kind of stuff. So 524 00:28:32,436 --> 00:28:35,956 Speaker 2: I saw it and I wrote on there, hmm, dot 525 00:28:36,036 --> 00:28:40,196 Speaker 2: dot dot. I said, maybe we should return bring back 526 00:28:40,276 --> 00:28:43,516 Speaker 2: the music, maybe bring back some of the cool cars, 527 00:28:43,916 --> 00:28:46,836 Speaker 2: and definitely some of the low prices, but perhaps not 528 00:28:46,956 --> 00:28:50,276 Speaker 2: the mindset. And see, and that's a whole different perspective. 529 00:28:50,556 --> 00:28:52,916 Speaker 2: You will never hear black people talk about the good 530 00:28:52,916 --> 00:28:56,756 Speaker 2: old days because we didn't have good old days, you know. 531 00:28:56,796 --> 00:28:59,036 Speaker 2: And you know, I loved the music of the fifties. 532 00:28:59,516 --> 00:29:01,676 Speaker 2: But what I want to go back to that era? No, 533 00:29:02,236 --> 00:29:04,356 Speaker 2: because in that era, I would have to be drinking 534 00:29:04,356 --> 00:29:06,636 Speaker 2: from a separate order fountain, riding in the back of 535 00:29:06,636 --> 00:29:09,516 Speaker 2: the bus, not being served in certain restaurants. I don't 536 00:29:09,516 --> 00:29:11,276 Speaker 2: want to go back to that. But see, that didn't 537 00:29:11,276 --> 00:29:13,956 Speaker 2: even occur to him. Why did it not occur to him? 538 00:29:14,316 --> 00:29:17,956 Speaker 2: Because he has white privilege, and you know, it was 539 00:29:17,996 --> 00:29:20,996 Speaker 2: just plain ignorance. So I had to just point it 540 00:29:21,036 --> 00:29:23,636 Speaker 2: out to him. If he wasn't trying to be offensive 541 00:29:23,676 --> 00:29:25,436 Speaker 2: or anything like that, he just didn't know. 542 00:29:26,236 --> 00:29:29,916 Speaker 1: How do you think about the difference between labeling behaviors 543 00:29:29,956 --> 00:29:33,476 Speaker 1: as racist versus people as racist, and how that difference 544 00:29:33,516 --> 00:29:36,756 Speaker 1: in focus might affect people's ability to change. 545 00:29:38,836 --> 00:29:43,636 Speaker 2: You put a label on somebody, they tend to carry it. 546 00:29:43,636 --> 00:29:46,836 Speaker 2: It damages them. And if they have paid their price 547 00:29:46,836 --> 00:29:48,756 Speaker 2: that you know, they've given that up. They should not 548 00:29:48,876 --> 00:29:51,596 Speaker 2: have to wear that label anymore. We need to break 549 00:29:51,636 --> 00:29:56,236 Speaker 2: them from that otherwise what do they have left? How 550 00:29:56,276 --> 00:30:00,756 Speaker 2: do they feel whole? You know, we can't do that 551 00:30:00,796 --> 00:30:01,236 Speaker 2: to people. 552 00:30:02,596 --> 00:30:05,156 Speaker 1: During my time at the Obama White House, when we 553 00:30:05,236 --> 00:30:08,836 Speaker 1: were designing re entry guides for people who are leaving 554 00:30:08,836 --> 00:30:11,996 Speaker 1: prison in we made sure not to use labels like 555 00:30:12,356 --> 00:30:15,636 Speaker 1: ex convicts or ex prisoners and instead use forward looking 556 00:30:15,716 --> 00:30:19,156 Speaker 1: language like community members. And this was based on the 557 00:30:19,196 --> 00:30:23,476 Speaker 1: idea that people often act in ways that strongly align 558 00:30:23,596 --> 00:30:25,996 Speaker 1: with their social identities, and you know, they can often 559 00:30:26,036 --> 00:30:27,676 Speaker 1: feel fixed in those identities. 560 00:30:28,356 --> 00:30:31,716 Speaker 2: Yes, like, if they've paid the price, they have accepted 561 00:30:31,796 --> 00:30:37,116 Speaker 2: responsibility and accountability, then why should we label them that way? 562 00:30:38,156 --> 00:30:40,516 Speaker 2: Label them as to what they are at the time. 563 00:30:42,596 --> 00:30:45,156 Speaker 1: Daryl's now working with the State Department. They send him 564 00:30:45,196 --> 00:30:48,316 Speaker 1: on trips to Israel, India and other countries to talk 565 00:30:48,356 --> 00:30:51,636 Speaker 1: about prejudice and bigotry and how to tackle the deep 566 00:30:51,676 --> 00:30:55,916 Speaker 1: inequities of race, class, and caste. He also gives dozens 567 00:30:55,916 --> 00:30:58,436 Speaker 1: of lectures a year at universities. 568 00:30:58,476 --> 00:31:00,756 Speaker 2: And I'll, you know, at the end of the lecture, 569 00:31:00,756 --> 00:31:03,196 Speaker 2: I'll do a Q and A There'll be some students 570 00:31:03,196 --> 00:31:05,916 Speaker 2: standing off in the distance, not doing anything, just kind 571 00:31:05,956 --> 00:31:08,836 Speaker 2: of milling around. When the crowd dissipates and goes away 572 00:31:08,836 --> 00:31:11,396 Speaker 2: from the podium, he or she will then approach me 573 00:31:11,956 --> 00:31:14,756 Speaker 2: and they'll like, look around, make sure nobody's with an earshot, 574 00:31:14,956 --> 00:31:16,796 Speaker 2: and they'll say, oh, you know, I enjoyed your lecture, 575 00:31:17,916 --> 00:31:20,556 Speaker 2: mister Davis. You know I was raised that way. My 576 00:31:20,676 --> 00:31:23,636 Speaker 2: mother is in the Klan, or my father's a neo Nazi. 577 00:31:23,996 --> 00:31:26,076 Speaker 2: You know, this is how I grew up. But now 578 00:31:26,076 --> 00:31:31,516 Speaker 2: I'm here at University of whatever and my boyfriend is 579 00:31:32,196 --> 00:31:36,836 Speaker 2: Jewish or my girlfriend is black, and I can't bring 580 00:31:36,916 --> 00:31:38,796 Speaker 2: I can't bring that person home. My parents will kill 581 00:31:38,836 --> 00:31:41,676 Speaker 2: me or you know, or they'll disown me. And how 582 00:31:41,676 --> 00:31:43,956 Speaker 2: do they go home and tell their parents that their 583 00:31:43,996 --> 00:31:47,596 Speaker 2: parents were wrong? You know, their parents wanted them to 584 00:31:47,636 --> 00:31:50,036 Speaker 2: go and get an education, but they didn't want them 585 00:31:50,036 --> 00:31:54,716 Speaker 2: to get that education. So they've got this secret burning 586 00:31:54,756 --> 00:31:57,396 Speaker 2: on their chest. You know, that just has to come out. 587 00:31:58,076 --> 00:31:59,876 Speaker 2: And I'm one of the perfect persons, you know that 588 00:31:59,916 --> 00:32:02,836 Speaker 2: they can talk to about it, and I'll sit down 589 00:32:02,836 --> 00:32:04,676 Speaker 2: and talk with them and you know, give them some 590 00:32:04,716 --> 00:32:06,636 Speaker 2: advice and things like that and try to smooth things 591 00:32:06,636 --> 00:32:10,036 Speaker 2: out for them, you know, help them out. You know, 592 00:32:10,276 --> 00:32:12,676 Speaker 2: I get a lot of those kinds of emails, guys. 593 00:32:12,996 --> 00:32:14,756 Speaker 2: You know, want me to talk to their brother, or 594 00:32:14,796 --> 00:32:16,876 Speaker 2: some kid wants me to talk to their parents, or 595 00:32:16,916 --> 00:32:19,116 Speaker 2: some wife wants me to talk to her husband. We 596 00:32:19,156 --> 00:32:21,556 Speaker 2: need something like, you know, a race anonymous kind of thing, 597 00:32:22,116 --> 00:32:26,036 Speaker 2: and I'm planning on having a museum one day. In 598 00:32:26,116 --> 00:32:29,316 Speaker 2: my museum, I'm going to have a component for people 599 00:32:29,356 --> 00:32:32,516 Speaker 2: to come and talk about, you know, racist spouses or 600 00:32:32,956 --> 00:32:36,276 Speaker 2: racist parents, or racist siblings or something like that, so 601 00:32:36,476 --> 00:32:39,316 Speaker 2: there will be an outlet for them and hopefully, hopefully 602 00:32:39,316 --> 00:32:41,556 Speaker 2: that can be replicated around the country. 603 00:32:42,796 --> 00:32:45,676 Speaker 1: We spent so much of this interview talking about how 604 00:32:46,116 --> 00:32:49,276 Speaker 1: you inspire change in others, and I'm wondering how this 605 00:32:49,356 --> 00:32:51,076 Speaker 1: whole experience changed you. 606 00:32:52,036 --> 00:32:54,876 Speaker 2: I just thought I'd meet these people, get my information, 607 00:32:55,236 --> 00:32:57,116 Speaker 2: write my book, and be done, never see them again. 608 00:32:58,236 --> 00:33:01,636 Speaker 2: What you and I and everybody else has heard as 609 00:33:01,756 --> 00:33:04,876 Speaker 2: children is this. A tiger does not change of stripes, 610 00:33:05,156 --> 00:33:08,076 Speaker 2: a leopard does not change his spots. So why would 611 00:33:08,116 --> 00:33:10,556 Speaker 2: we think that a clan and would change his ideology? 612 00:33:10,996 --> 00:33:14,636 Speaker 2: You know, people are who they are. But when somebody 613 00:33:14,676 --> 00:33:17,036 Speaker 2: started changing, and then it happened again and again and again, 614 00:33:17,516 --> 00:33:21,076 Speaker 2: I realized I was onto something. So what can be 615 00:33:21,156 --> 00:33:25,196 Speaker 2: learned can also be unlearned. I cannot stop doing this work. 616 00:33:25,516 --> 00:33:28,556 Speaker 2: So I'm making just as much time between my music 617 00:33:28,876 --> 00:33:31,476 Speaker 2: and doing this kind of work because I love my 618 00:33:31,516 --> 00:33:34,996 Speaker 2: country and I want to see it improve. We spend 619 00:33:35,036 --> 00:33:38,716 Speaker 2: too much time in this country talking about the other person, 620 00:33:39,356 --> 00:33:43,036 Speaker 2: talking at the other person, and talking past the other person. 621 00:33:43,556 --> 00:33:46,796 Speaker 2: I prefer to talk with the other person, and that 622 00:33:46,836 --> 00:33:48,156 Speaker 2: has been the key to my success. 623 00:34:09,156 --> 00:34:11,876 Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed my 624 00:34:11,916 --> 00:34:14,796 Speaker 1: conversation with Darryl, I'd recommend you listen to an episode 625 00:34:14,836 --> 00:34:18,636 Speaker 1: of the show featuring Megan Phelps roper. Megan was born 626 00:34:18,716 --> 00:34:22,196 Speaker 1: into the Westboro Baptist Church, a religious cult that is 627 00:34:22,276 --> 00:34:24,836 Speaker 1: known as one of the most rabid hate groups in America. 628 00:34:25,516 --> 00:34:27,676 Speaker 1: She was a true believer in one of the church's 629 00:34:27,676 --> 00:34:31,636 Speaker 1: most vocal advocates until one day she changed her mind. 630 00:34:32,396 --> 00:34:44,396 Speaker 1: We'll link to the episode in the show notes. A 631 00:34:44,436 --> 00:34:47,556 Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans is created and executive producer by 632 00:34:47,596 --> 00:34:51,396 Speaker 1: me Maya Schunker. Big thanks to everyone at Pushkin Industries, 633 00:34:51,796 --> 00:34:56,036 Speaker 1: including our producer Mola Board, associate producers David Jaw and 634 00:34:56,116 --> 00:35:00,956 Speaker 1: Julia Goodman, Executive producers Meia Lavelle and Justin Lange, Senior 635 00:35:01,076 --> 00:35:04,876 Speaker 1: editor Jen Guera and sound design and mixed engineers Ben 636 00:35:04,916 --> 00:35:09,236 Speaker 1: Holliday and Jason Gambrell. Thanks also to Louis Scara who 637 00:35:09,276 --> 00:35:11,836 Speaker 1: wrote our theme song, and Ginger Smith who helped arrange 638 00:35:11,836 --> 00:35:16,436 Speaker 1: the vocals, incidental music from Epidemic Sound, and of course 639 00:35:16,636 --> 00:35:20,116 Speaker 1: a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow 640 00:35:20,116 --> 00:35:34,036 Speaker 1: a slight change of plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker. So, Daryl, 641 00:35:34,036 --> 00:35:36,436 Speaker 1: one of the things that really captivated me on a 642 00:35:36,436 --> 00:35:39,476 Speaker 1: personal level about your story is that you are a musician. 643 00:35:40,796 --> 00:35:43,036 Speaker 1: I was also a musician in the younger part of 644 00:35:43,076 --> 00:35:45,876 Speaker 1: my life, and I studied classical violin. 645 00:35:46,316 --> 00:35:48,436 Speaker 2: Okay, if I have to correct you on something you 646 00:35:48,556 --> 00:35:50,636 Speaker 2: said that you were a musician, let me tell you something. 647 00:35:50,996 --> 00:35:54,156 Speaker 2: Was a musician, always a musician. So you're still a musician. 648 00:35:54,156 --> 00:35:58,436 Speaker 1: Oh I love that. Thank you. I think my technique 649 00:35:58,476 --> 00:36:01,836 Speaker 1: would violate that assumption, but I think in my heart 650 00:36:01,876 --> 00:36:03,196 Speaker 1: I am a musician. I'll give you that