WEBVTT - CLASSIC: The 2001 Anthrax Letter Attacks: Who was actually responsible? 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:03.840 Folks, we are returning with a classic episode for you. 0:00:03.960 --> 0:00:08.360 Travel back with us to two thousand and one, where 0:00:08.480 --> 0:00:11.959 something gripped the nation. There was hysteria about it, and 0:00:12.000 --> 0:00:16.000 then people promptly forgot all about the anthrax letter attacks. 0:00:16.320 --> 0:00:20.439 Yep, short memory sometimes, But I'm right there too, Ben, 0:00:20.480 --> 0:00:22.440 I hadn't thought about the two thousand and one anthrax 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:24.880 letter attacks, which is fun to say in a very 0:00:24.920 --> 0:00:25.440 long time. 0:00:26.200 --> 0:00:30.440 There's weird stuff the saga of these letters and the 0:00:30.480 --> 0:00:33.400 anthrax and the strain and how it got there and 0:00:33.440 --> 0:00:37.159 whether or not there was inside government stuff going on. 0:00:38.800 --> 0:00:43.360 Yeah, and there's also there's also a crazy context because 0:00:44.080 --> 0:00:48.839 this occurs just days after the events of September eleventh, 0:00:49.080 --> 0:00:53.600 two thousand and one, very very strange time for the 0:00:53.640 --> 0:00:57.960 new cycle tragedy for the nation. Even back in twenty 0:00:58.000 --> 0:01:01.920 twenty when we originally recorded this, folks were asking who 0:01:02.080 --> 0:01:03.520 was actually responsible. 0:01:03.760 --> 0:01:06.040 I seem to remember at the time kind of feeling 0:01:06.040 --> 0:01:08.920 this sense of like adding insult to injury with this, 0:01:09.240 --> 0:01:11.920 like after everyone was so you know, turned upside down 0:01:11.959 --> 0:01:14.800 because of nine to eleven, that this just represented like 0:01:14.880 --> 0:01:19.880 a further just destabilization, like everything's just going haywire, you know. 0:01:20.360 --> 0:01:23.360 Yeah, and people were worried about possible false flags or 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:28.959 trying to amp the country up into a war or 0:01:29.000 --> 0:01:34.960 even you know, to MAT's earlier point, inside forces striking 0:01:35.000 --> 0:01:38.480 out for internal division, and some of the anthrax was 0:01:38.680 --> 0:01:42.120 fake by the way, also we learned later. Anyway, this 0:01:42.240 --> 0:01:44.600 is the episode. We can't wait to hear your thoughts, 0:01:44.720 --> 0:01:47.520 and if you can solve the mystery, we'd love for 0:01:47.600 --> 0:01:49.800 you to solve it for us, because I don't think 0:01:49.800 --> 0:01:52.800 we do in this episode. But tell us what you think. 0:01:52.960 --> 0:01:54.880 We'll be back after a word from our sponsors. 0:01:56.240 --> 0:02:00.720 From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies, history is 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:05.120 riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 0:02:05.200 --> 0:02:08.160 learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 0:02:08.240 --> 0:02:09.919 production of iHeartRadio. 0:02:20.320 --> 0:02:22.000 Hello, and welcome back to the show. 0:02:22.200 --> 0:02:26.680 My name is nol Our Rider Die Matt Frederick is 0:02:26.880 --> 0:02:32.040 most likely playing Best Fiends while he's on vacation. They 0:02:32.120 --> 0:02:34.799 called me Ben. We are joined as always with our 0:02:34.919 --> 0:02:38.560 super producer Paul Mission Control Deck and most importantly, you 0:02:38.800 --> 0:02:42.880 are You are here and that makes this stuff they 0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:48.239 don't want you to know. This is a very interesting episode. 0:02:48.280 --> 0:02:53.520 It's one that has fascinated Good Pal Matt for a 0:02:53.840 --> 0:02:58.920 number of years. This episode is something that he cares 0:02:58.960 --> 0:03:02.959 deeply about. So we're gonna do our best to We're 0:03:02.960 --> 0:03:04.400 gonna do our best to make them proud. 0:03:04.840 --> 0:03:08.200 Speaking of Matt, you blasted right by this whole Best 0:03:08.200 --> 0:03:11.680 Fiends business. We got a bombshell yesterday that Matt Frederick 0:03:11.680 --> 0:03:14.480 has reached level seven hundred and sixty four in the 0:03:14.560 --> 0:03:17.920 mobile game Best Fiends. And I don't know whether to 0:03:17.960 --> 0:03:19.560 be proud of him or concerned for him. 0:03:20.080 --> 0:03:23.520 I mean, that's you know, he's nothing if not a 0:03:23.600 --> 0:03:30.600 passionate dude. But I was likewise surprised. Now, you know, Noel, 0:03:30.760 --> 0:03:34.240 if there's one thing that longtime listeners have learned from 0:03:34.280 --> 0:03:36.880 stuff they don't want you to know, it's this. You 0:03:37.000 --> 0:03:40.000 can blast by a lot of headlines. You can get 0:03:40.000 --> 0:03:43.520 a lot of buried leads. The mainstream news is a fickle, 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:48.280 ephemeral thing. Some stories that seem pretty innocuous can receive 0:03:48.440 --> 0:03:52.600 international attention. Like remember when the world was obsessed over 0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:55.800 figuring out what color address was on Facebook? 0:03:56.360 --> 0:04:00.840 What was the determination ultimately beij was it? What were 0:04:00.840 --> 0:04:02.880 the choices? And how do you even interpret this? Ben? 0:04:02.920 --> 0:04:05.040 With your color deficiency, did you feel that doubt of 0:04:05.120 --> 0:04:05.600 that story. 0:04:06.520 --> 0:04:11.720 No, I wouldn't have participated even if known white color. 0:04:12.640 --> 0:04:14.440 I think it was it was blue, or it was 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:18.000 gold or as black. There was a whole thing. But 0:04:18.240 --> 0:04:23.200 there are other stories, though, tremendously important stories that seem 0:04:23.279 --> 0:04:26.840 to fade from the spotlight, and they're only followed up 0:04:27.000 --> 0:04:32.400 on by people in specialized internet forums or in specialized 0:04:32.680 --> 0:04:37.680 trade publications. For example, this, this is weird. 0:04:38.000 --> 0:04:38.200 You know. 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:42.800 Today's story comes to us from josh P. Josh P, 0:04:43.320 --> 0:04:48.440 you emailed us to ask about the anthrax attacks of 0:04:48.600 --> 0:04:52.680 two thousand and one. Now, right as we say that, 0:04:52.960 --> 0:04:56.480 a lot of us in the audience are going, huh, anthrax. 0:04:56.560 --> 0:05:00.480 I kind of remember that, right, I. I know it's 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:04.400 a thing, But what do you mean? Well, to answer 0:05:04.480 --> 0:05:07.400 that question, we have to first tell you what anthrax is. 0:05:07.520 --> 0:05:10.480 So here are the facts. Yeah, So, just to get 0:05:10.480 --> 0:05:12.800 it out of the way. No, not the thrash metal 0:05:12.839 --> 0:05:15.039 band from the nineties with that ball dude with the 0:05:15.080 --> 0:05:17.839 amazing goatee that you may have seen on episodes of 0:05:17.839 --> 0:05:23.440 Beavis and butthead the CDC describes anthrax as a serious 0:05:23.560 --> 0:05:28.760 infectious disease that's caused by something referred to as gram 0:05:28.839 --> 0:05:36.560 positive rod shaped bacteria referred to as Bacillis anthracis, and 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:42.000 it is something that can absolutely sicken people when it's 0:05:42.040 --> 0:05:45.840 inhaled or when they are they come into contact with 0:05:45.880 --> 0:05:50.760 infected animals or you know, food stuffs. Another way of 0:05:50.760 --> 0:05:54.120 looking at it is that it's a spore forming bacillus 0:05:54.640 --> 0:05:58.400 that is absolutely deadly to humans. And there are three 0:05:58.520 --> 0:06:04.120 main forms of transmission. Cutaneous which is when you contract 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:07.960 it through the skin. Gastro Intestinal which of course is 0:06:08.000 --> 0:06:10.560 when you would ingest it when you know, eating a 0:06:10.560 --> 0:06:15.120 contaminated food product. And then there is pulmonary, which is 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:17.520 mainly what we're going to be talking about today, which 0:06:17.520 --> 0:06:18.800 is when it is inhaled. 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:25.200 Yeah, yeah, that's that's correct. So so a lot of 0:06:25.279 --> 0:06:30.560 countries have stockpiled anthrax for a long time. When you 0:06:30.640 --> 0:06:35.919 hear people talking about bioweapon research, they're usually referring to 0:06:36.560 --> 0:06:43.200 things like anthrax. Because picture anthrax like picture it like 0:06:43.240 --> 0:06:46.320 an agricultural product. With the right know how, you can 0:06:46.400 --> 0:06:51.279 grow it, you can groom it, and you can change 0:06:51.279 --> 0:06:56.239 it into various various mediums of consumption, right like you said, 0:06:56.279 --> 0:07:02.520 with oral or pulmonary or cutaneous inhalation or ingestion. So 0:07:04.440 --> 0:07:08.119 behind the scenes, while everybody is worrying about what color 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:12.320 addresses or what the Kardashians are doing, or you know 0:07:12.360 --> 0:07:15.600 what the newest season of your favorite television show is, 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:22.200 governments and private partnerships around the world are constantly experimenting 0:07:22.280 --> 0:07:25.760 with diseases. They're refining them. You're usually going to hear 0:07:25.840 --> 0:07:32.120 about these in terms of national defense, right, like, like 0:07:32.200 --> 0:07:35.240 I'm sure you know if you went to the CDC, 0:07:35.440 --> 0:07:39.600 they would say, we're not making bioweapons, We're researching vaccines, right, 0:07:39.640 --> 0:07:43.200 We're trying to save people, not harm them, That's right. 0:07:43.320 --> 0:07:46.440 And you might hear a term like weaponized grade you know, 0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:49.840 like weapons grade plutonium or weaponized anthrax, and that just 0:07:49.920 --> 0:07:55.840 means it's refined to the point of being more easily dispersed, 0:07:56.000 --> 0:07:58.720 you know, through say air ducts, you know in a 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:01.720 building for example, or you know, it's when I say refined, 0:08:01.720 --> 0:08:04.960 I literally mean made into a fine substance that can 0:08:05.000 --> 0:08:09.440 be released and become very very dangerous because it is 0:08:09.480 --> 0:08:13.240 transmitted through you know, airflow in the case of like 0:08:13.280 --> 0:08:15.320 a building or even outdoors. Yeah. 0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:19.920 Yeah, And when we talk about these experts who are 0:08:19.960 --> 0:08:24.040 working on depending on on what you believe, working on 0:08:24.200 --> 0:08:29.920 either weaponizing diseases or on creating cures for these diseases. 0:08:30.360 --> 0:08:35.800 They also work on plans on scenarios, right, They work 0:08:35.840 --> 0:08:38.440 on what's called emergency preparedness plans. 0:08:38.880 --> 0:08:42.000 Yeah, and the CDC on their website does have an 0:08:42.040 --> 0:08:46.440 emergency preparedness plan in place for an anthrax attack, but 0:08:47.640 --> 0:08:50.679 in my opinion, and I'm no expert, it seems pretty 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:53.800 broad and kind of vague, almost more of a stop, 0:08:53.880 --> 0:08:58.240 drop and roll situation than actually some sort of larger 0:08:58.360 --> 0:09:03.080 government response plan that's in place. And it's interesting. In 0:09:03.080 --> 0:09:06.800 more recent times, focus truly seems to have shifted away 0:09:07.200 --> 0:09:13.840 from you know, bioterrorism protection and more towards pandemic preparedness. 0:09:14.559 --> 0:09:17.800 Though based on our current situation, that does not seem 0:09:17.840 --> 0:09:21.240 to have worked out quite so well, so you know, 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:25.440 the jury is still out on that. But bioterrorism was 0:09:25.760 --> 0:09:29.120 much more of a top of mind thing during these 0:09:29.120 --> 0:09:30.920 attacks that we're going to talk about today. 0:09:31.480 --> 0:09:35.840 Right, Yes, fellow conspiracy realist, you may remember this story 0:09:35.920 --> 0:09:40.520 from several years ago, almost twenty years ago now, beginning 0:09:40.559 --> 0:09:45.120 on September eighteenth, two thousand and one, just a week 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:49.560 after literally just a week after the infamous terrorist attacks. 0:09:49.600 --> 0:09:54.400 On September eleventh, two thousand and one, someone started mailing 0:09:54.559 --> 0:10:02.040 letters laced with anthrax. They sent these to several places AB, NBCCBS, 0:10:02.240 --> 0:10:07.040 the New York Post, American Media. That's that's such a 0:10:07.040 --> 0:10:10.440 benign name. American Media is probably best known as the 0:10:10.440 --> 0:10:14.360 publisher of the National Enquirer, a quite popular tabloid here 0:10:14.360 --> 0:10:19.160 in the US. And they also sent someone sent these 0:10:19.440 --> 0:10:22.960 sent anthrax leased letters to members of Congress. 0:10:23.360 --> 0:10:27.760 That's correct, two Democratic Senators Tom Dashel and Patrick Lahey. 0:10:28.280 --> 0:10:32.480 On October second, two thousand and one, the gentleman at 0:10:32.480 --> 0:10:35.360 the American Media building in Florida, which is again the 0:10:35.400 --> 0:10:39.520 parent company of the National Inquirer and also The Sun, 0:10:40.600 --> 0:10:43.679 a photo editor by the name of Robert Stevens, opened 0:10:44.559 --> 0:10:52.880 an innocuously labeled envelope and was exposed to anthrax. There 0:10:52.880 --> 0:10:56.120 were various methods in these letters of dispersal, but like 0:10:56.160 --> 0:10:57.800 some of them were more successful than others. And I 0:10:57.840 --> 0:11:00.360 believe this is one where he pulled something out of 0:11:00.360 --> 0:11:03.880 the envelope and it actually kind of ejected powder into 0:11:03.920 --> 0:11:06.679 his face and he really took a deep whiff of 0:11:06.720 --> 0:11:08.079 this substance. 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:13.560 Yep, absolutely, that's correct. Two days later, October fourth, two 0:11:13.559 --> 0:11:17.720 thousand and one, Robert Stevens is diagnosed with what's called 0:11:17.840 --> 0:11:22.440 inhalational anthrax, meaning he ingested it just the way you 0:11:22.520 --> 0:11:27.640 described nol. Robert Stevens dies the next day, October fifth, 0:11:27.679 --> 0:11:32.880 two thousand and one, and three days later, authorities start 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:36.240 running tests on his office, on his workspace, and they 0:11:36.280 --> 0:11:41.120 find that his computer keyboard also tests positive for anthrax. 0:11:41.320 --> 0:11:45.880 This was only the first confirmed death overall so far 0:11:45.920 --> 0:11:49.800 as we know today. In twenty twenty, the anthrax attacks 0:11:49.880 --> 0:11:54.480 of two thousand and one left seventeen people infected and 0:11:54.920 --> 0:11:59.840 five people died. Five people died from exposure to anth 0:12:00.840 --> 0:12:06.880 This became a international story, and the problem with some 0:12:07.000 --> 0:12:11.520 of these international stories is that for one reason or another, 0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:13.520 copycats come into play. 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:18.400 That's right. There was another copycat crime that occurred when 0:12:18.440 --> 0:12:21.880 someone else mailed fake anthrax in the form of just 0:12:21.920 --> 0:12:24.920 a harmless white powder, possibly baby powder or something like 0:12:24.960 --> 0:12:27.839 that to the New York Times newsroom, and it was 0:12:27.880 --> 0:12:32.000 opened by a reporter named Judith Miller. And it really 0:12:32.040 --> 0:12:33.960 just goes to show, because of what you said, Ben, 0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:38.560 that this truly just was a massive story because it 0:12:38.600 --> 0:12:42.400 was in the wake of nine to eleven, where people 0:12:42.440 --> 0:12:45.760 were just so on edge already and just really believing 0:12:45.840 --> 0:12:49.679 that terrorism was coming at us from all directions, and 0:12:49.760 --> 0:12:53.520 the close proximity to that attack on the World Trade 0:12:53.559 --> 0:12:57.080 Center buildings really got people freaked out, and the FBI 0:12:57.640 --> 0:13:00.760 acted accordingly, launching what they refer to as one of 0:13:00.760 --> 0:13:04.960 the largest and most complex investigations in the history of 0:13:05.120 --> 0:13:09.960 law enforcement and involved multiple agencies and thousands of hours 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:11.720 of investigative time. 0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:15.240 So what did they find. Well, we have to remember, 0:13:15.480 --> 0:13:19.680 as you said, that this occurred right after nine to eleven. 0:13:20.080 --> 0:13:27.120 It is impossible to convey just how alert, how tense, 0:13:27.840 --> 0:13:33.480 how crisis ready government agencies were. You have to remember, folks, 0:13:34.120 --> 0:13:38.480 that war was in the air way before the anthrax. 0:13:38.640 --> 0:13:42.360 It was already floating around, and war is its own 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:46.280 sort of infectious weapon, right, its own sort of disease. 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:50.880 The FBI scrambled and assembled what I think is a 0:13:51.160 --> 0:13:56.520 terribly named task force, the Amerthrax Task Force. We didn't 0:13:56.559 --> 0:13:57.720 write that, they wrote that. 0:13:58.679 --> 0:14:01.280 It just does not really right off the tug, does it. 0:14:01.559 --> 0:14:05.480 But you know, name aside, it was a serious business. 0:14:05.600 --> 0:14:09.360 Roughly twenty five to thirty full time investigators from the 0:14:09.480 --> 0:14:13.839 FBI and the US Postal Inspection Service and multiple other 0:14:13.960 --> 0:14:17.800 law enforcement agencies, as well as federal prosecutors from the 0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:21.240 District of Columbia and the Justice Department Counter Terrorism Section. 0:14:22.080 --> 0:14:25.640 And as we said before, thousands of investigator work hours 0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:30.360 were involved. That led to ten thousand witness interviews on 0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:35.200 six different continents, execution of eighty search warrants, and the 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:38.920 recovery of more than six thousand items of potential evidence 0:14:39.320 --> 0:14:40.840 during this investigation. 0:14:41.440 --> 0:14:44.840 And you heard that right, six different continents. So that 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:51.400 means that the Amerithrax Task Force literally asked people everywhere 0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:56.200 except for Antarctica. Somehow the folks in Antarctica slipped under 0:14:56.240 --> 0:15:02.640 the radar. This case also ended up issuing more than 0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:07.560 five seven hundred and fifty subpoenas for grand juries. They 0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:12.720 collected five thousand, seven hundred and thirty environmental samples from 0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:18.160 sixty different places they were on the search. This this investigation, 0:15:19.080 --> 0:15:22.680 in addition to being very expensive, was very thorough. Here's 0:15:23.200 --> 0:15:25.640 here's what they found. Here's how it shakes out. So 0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:30.160 FBI agents trace the first wave of letters to a 0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:35.880 single postmark. It's these letters came from Trenton, New Jersey, 0:15:36.600 --> 0:15:40.240 and that's the first five letters. They had a theme 0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:43.640 of sorts. You know, the letters weren't blank when people 0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:47.600 opened the envelope, there was something written in there. And 0:15:47.640 --> 0:15:51.520 we've got we've got the text of these. Let's let's 0:15:51.560 --> 0:15:54.040 maybe start with the letter sent to New York Post 0:15:54.120 --> 0:15:54.600 and NBC. 0:15:55.080 --> 0:15:57.280 Absolutely, And by the way, if you want, you can 0:15:57.360 --> 0:16:00.800 look up images of these. They've been cataloged and photographed 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:03.520 and you can see them. They're all handwritten in kind 0:16:03.560 --> 0:16:07.600 of a weird, childish script. It's very Serial Killer esque, honestly, 0:16:07.640 --> 0:16:11.760 the way the way they appear, and the notes really 0:16:11.920 --> 0:16:14.800 lean into that. Even further so. The one said to 0:16:14.800 --> 0:16:16.880 the New York Posts and the NBC News had this 0:16:17.040 --> 0:16:21.320 note nine to eleven oh one, this is next. Take 0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:27.880 penicillin now. Cool pro tip death to America, death to Israel. 0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:31.080 Allah is great. Okay, it seems to have escalated there 0:16:31.120 --> 0:16:34.680 to a little different place. But I appreciate the advice 0:16:34.760 --> 0:16:37.240 about taking penicillin. I think that's actually really helpful. 0:16:37.240 --> 0:16:41.400 You know, they also misspelled penicillin, by the way, it's true. 0:16:41.120 --> 0:16:43.960 But also by the way, you know, people think of 0:16:43.960 --> 0:16:46.120 anthrax and they think, like, I don't know, your mind 0:16:46.120 --> 0:16:48.960 immediately goes to some sort of face melting, you know, 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:52.720 bio terror product, and it really just sickens you. It 0:16:52.720 --> 0:16:54.960 can make you nauseous, and it's the respiratory thing that 0:16:55.000 --> 0:16:57.080 can obviously kill you in the same way that COVID 0:16:57.160 --> 0:16:59.480 nineteen can. I mean, it can escalate much more quickly. 0:16:59.640 --> 0:17:03.960 But it is treatable with regular antibiotics. You know, it's 0:17:04.000 --> 0:17:07.280 not a death sentence always. It's caught in enough time, 0:17:07.760 --> 0:17:10.440 so it's not some kind of magical thing. It literally 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:13.840 is just a disease that can be treated with the antibiotics. 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:18.680 And we should note instantly, you know, the FBI investigators 0:17:19.640 --> 0:17:25.280 had to say, well, is this a person writing English 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:28.240 as a second language, you know, or the ESL. Is 0:17:28.240 --> 0:17:31.359 that why penicilan is misspelled? And of course you know, 0:17:31.880 --> 0:17:36.480 there was a lot of anti Muslim sentiment at the time. 0:17:37.440 --> 0:17:41.800 The letters sent to Senators Dashel and Lee he said 0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:46.440 said very similar things. They said, you cannot stop us. 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:50.080 We have this anthrax. You die now, are you afraid? 0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:54.159 Death to America, death to Israel Allah is great. So 0:17:54.560 --> 0:17:58.679 clearly they're coming from the same source, just based on 0:17:58.720 --> 0:18:03.240 the language there. You know, it is very difficult to 0:18:03.520 --> 0:18:08.159 describe the level of panic that occurs here. We have 0:18:08.200 --> 0:18:13.680 to remember this is again a week after the largest 0:18:13.840 --> 0:18:16.879 attack on American soil in recent US history. 0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:19.639 Yeah, so, I mean, obviously the first go to is 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:24.600 to investigate Al Qaeda. The White House pressured then FBI 0:18:24.680 --> 0:18:28.199 Director Robert Muller to establish the letters were a second 0:18:28.240 --> 0:18:30.880 wave of attacks relating to nine to eleven. And it's 0:18:30.920 --> 0:18:35.520 always tough when you know, the brass kind of tells 0:18:35.560 --> 0:18:38.560 you what results to get, you know what I mean, 0:18:38.880 --> 0:18:40.600 because the question is like, you know, sure we can 0:18:40.640 --> 0:18:43.120 read these and say, okay, is it an ESL situation 0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:46.840 or is it someone trying to write in that voice 0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:49.480 as to create that effect, you know what I mean, 0:18:49.720 --> 0:18:54.080 to maybe cause that kind of panic. So yeah, obviously 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:57.760 that didn't pan out, this notion that this was in 0:18:57.800 --> 0:19:00.640 fact the second wave, but that was whatever one thought. 0:19:00.720 --> 0:19:02.480 I mean, it was just the first place your mind 0:19:02.480 --> 0:19:05.320 would go. Hence the hysteria that was just you know, 0:19:05.359 --> 0:19:07.920 in the air in our country at that time. Yeah. 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:14.000 Yeah, And Muller was definitely under pressure, but you know, 0:19:14.640 --> 0:19:19.280 from his estimation, the facts just weren't there. There wasn't 0:19:19.640 --> 0:19:23.920 there was one potential link. One of the nine to 0:19:23.960 --> 0:19:28.879 eleven terrorists was exposed to anthrax at some point, but 0:19:28.960 --> 0:19:30.840 that was that was pretty much all they could find. 0:19:31.480 --> 0:19:36.960 The initial actual suspects of the investigation ended up all 0:19:37.000 --> 0:19:43.480 being domestic US residents. There were probably about one hundred 0:19:43.520 --> 0:19:47.240 people or so who would have the know how, just 0:19:47.280 --> 0:19:49.560 to know how alone, just the expertise, not even the 0:19:49.600 --> 0:19:54.320 motivation of the opportunity. The FBI first turned to a 0:19:54.359 --> 0:20:00.440 man named Stephen J. Hatfil. Doctor Hatfhil is alive today. 0:20:00.840 --> 0:20:04.960 He is a pathologist, he's a bioweapons expert, and the 0:20:05.000 --> 0:20:06.720 FBI ruined his life. 0:20:07.240 --> 0:20:09.399 Yeah, for all intents and purposes. In mid two thousand 0:20:09.400 --> 0:20:13.080 and two, the FBI served him with a search warrant 0:20:13.080 --> 0:20:17.719 of his home, wearing hazmat suits, investigating whether he was 0:20:17.880 --> 0:20:20.560 in fact this anthrax killer, as was dubbed in the 0:20:20.560 --> 0:20:24.200 media at the time. He was at that point considered 0:20:24.240 --> 0:20:28.080 a major person of interest. His phone was tapped, he 0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:33.920 got fired from his job at Science Applications International Corporation. Yeah, 0:20:33.960 --> 0:20:36.000 like you said, Ben, I mean this really, you know, 0:20:36.160 --> 0:20:38.879 in the terms of the court of public opinion and 0:20:38.960 --> 0:20:44.840 just his other associations professionally, this absolutely railroaded him. He 0:20:45.240 --> 0:20:50.840 did ultimately get exonerated. He was very, very public exoneration. 0:20:51.560 --> 0:20:53.560 There's a great clip of him where he says, and 0:20:53.640 --> 0:20:56.920 now I can look my fellow Americans in the eye 0:20:57.320 --> 0:21:01.320 and say unequivocally I am not the anthrac killer, you know. 0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:04.960 And he definitely got some money where his mouth was, 0:21:05.000 --> 0:21:07.639 in the form of five point eight million from the 0:21:07.760 --> 0:21:12.159 Justice Department and in two other undisclosed settlements from some 0:21:12.200 --> 0:21:15.359 of these other agencies that were involved. It was very 0:21:15.400 --> 0:21:20.960 clear that they were acting on spurious evidence at best 0:21:21.359 --> 0:21:24.640 and made really jump the gun on nailing this guy. 0:21:24.680 --> 0:21:25.360 And the way they did. 0:21:25.760 --> 0:21:27.520 Yeah, I like that you bring up the court of 0:21:27.560 --> 0:21:31.160 public opinion. One of those groups that reached an undisclosed 0:21:31.200 --> 0:21:35.600 settlement with him was Conde Nast. It's a huge player 0:21:35.600 --> 0:21:41.640 in the media. They own Reddit for instance. So Hathhil. Luckily, 0:21:41.760 --> 0:21:44.480 if you're listening, doctor Hail, we are glad that you 0:21:44.520 --> 0:21:47.760 were able to be exonerated for a crime that you 0:21:47.960 --> 0:21:51.760 clearly did not commit. But it's tough to recover from 0:21:51.760 --> 0:21:55.840 that sort of stuff. He was ultimately found innocent of 0:21:55.880 --> 0:22:00.879 this crime. The primary conclusion of the FBI, the official story, 0:22:01.240 --> 0:22:07.560 is this. They concluded that a scientist named Bruce Ivans, 0:22:08.280 --> 0:22:13.000 acting alone, was the source of the entirety of the 0:22:13.040 --> 0:22:18.480 anthrax attacks, and he has if you're a profiler, he 0:22:18.640 --> 0:22:21.480 has all of the right red flags in all of 0:22:21.560 --> 0:22:25.560 the right places. He worked directly with anthrax. He was 0:22:25.640 --> 0:22:28.080 one of those people that we mentioned at the top 0:22:28.119 --> 0:22:31.760 of the show who develops vaccines. So he was working 0:22:31.800 --> 0:22:37.640 with anthrax officially to develop vaccines in case some other 0:22:37.760 --> 0:22:41.119 government had a weaponized strain that they deployed in the 0:22:41.200 --> 0:22:43.720 US or in a battlefield. 0:22:43.840 --> 0:22:47.919 And Ben wasn't he even involved in the investigation to 0:22:48.000 --> 0:22:48.800 a degree. 0:22:49.320 --> 0:22:53.800 Yeah, he volunteered, right, He volunteered to test samples. He 0:22:53.920 --> 0:22:56.720 sent samples from his own lab. He was around fifty 0:22:56.720 --> 0:23:01.040 five years old when the anthrax attacks occurred. He said, 0:23:01.119 --> 0:23:04.560 you know, I will help you determine the origin of 0:23:04.680 --> 0:23:08.439 the powder. Because everybody in the scientific community, everybody in 0:23:08.480 --> 0:23:12.080 the FBI, they knew only a few people in the 0:23:12.119 --> 0:23:19.440 world would even understand the science evolved here. So remember 0:23:19.480 --> 0:23:24.240 that part for later, folks. This guy volunteered to help 0:23:24.280 --> 0:23:28.199 the FBI determine the origin of the powder. 0:23:28.400 --> 0:23:32.359 And let's not forget how much pressure the FBI was under, 0:23:32.800 --> 0:23:36.280 especially since this public exoneration and having that egg on 0:23:36.320 --> 0:23:39.679 their face from wasting all those millions of dollars and 0:23:39.800 --> 0:23:43.520 thousands of hours, you know, focusing on the wrong purp. 0:23:44.560 --> 0:23:48.679 Doctor Ivans was literally right under their noses. I mean 0:23:48.720 --> 0:23:51.960 he was working, you know, in their labs essentially. I 0:23:52.000 --> 0:23:55.840 mean he was an agent of the government, and he, uh, 0:23:55.960 --> 0:23:58.560 you know, was kind of a goofball. He was he 0:23:58.640 --> 0:24:01.199 was sort of a kook like. He was described as 0:24:01.240 --> 0:24:05.920 being a bit arrogant and something of a flamboyant figure. 0:24:06.280 --> 0:24:08.800 And you know, that was a term that was thrown around. 0:24:08.840 --> 0:24:10.280 I'm not sure if if that's meant to be a 0:24:10.280 --> 0:24:13.040 pejorative or just that he was kind of a little 0:24:13.040 --> 0:24:14.840 bit of kookie. That's kind of the vibe that I got, 0:24:14.880 --> 0:24:18.280 but not necessarily a red flag in terms that he 0:24:18.320 --> 0:24:20.520 seemed like some kind of sociopath. He would send these 0:24:20.560 --> 0:24:23.280 like chipper emails with bad dad jokes, which I can 0:24:23.280 --> 0:24:28.120 get behind, as he talked through the dangers of anthrax. 0:24:28.600 --> 0:24:33.640 But he was by some seen as being a bit disturbed. 0:24:34.359 --> 0:24:41.240 Yes, that's correct, behind those puns, behind those cheerful exclamation 0:24:41.480 --> 0:24:45.400 marks and tangents in his emails which the FBI obtained. 0:24:45.440 --> 0:24:49.840 Of course, he had a lot of trauma. His therapist 0:24:49.920 --> 0:24:54.280 said that he had a traumatic childhood and was described 0:24:54.320 --> 0:24:58.080 as disturbing, and he himself as an adult seemed to 0:24:58.240 --> 0:25:02.800 be disturbed. He was a married man, but back in 0:25:02.920 --> 0:25:07.480 nineteen seventy six he was jilted by a fellow grad 0:25:07.560 --> 0:25:10.000 student who would go on to be a colleague in 0:25:10.040 --> 0:25:14.800 this field, a doctor Nancy Haigwood. And since he was 0:25:14.880 --> 0:25:19.200 jilted again back in nineteen seventy six, he had apparently 0:25:19.240 --> 0:25:23.520 become obsessed with her old sorority Kapa Kapa Gamma, and 0:25:23.800 --> 0:25:27.880 sororities in general. One of boss. Yeah, yeah, he would 0:25:27.960 --> 0:25:32.399 sit outside of sorority houses, just sit in this car, 0:25:32.840 --> 0:25:37.240 and he would, you know, when he met a colleague 0:25:37.359 --> 0:25:42.880 who was affiliated with a sorority, he would instantly start, 0:25:43.240 --> 0:25:47.000 I don't know, like pressuring them, cracking down. He got 0:25:47.000 --> 0:25:47.600 weird with it. 0:25:48.040 --> 0:25:50.000 Yeah, But there's also part of me that like, is 0:25:50.040 --> 0:25:53.480 he just socially awkward and maybe a bit on the spectrum, 0:25:53.720 --> 0:25:58.040 or is this stockery kind of rapee behavior in saying 0:25:58.359 --> 0:26:03.280 what's your secret password? What's your secret handshake? It seems 0:26:03.440 --> 0:26:06.440 kind of like a goofball way of flirting, like saying, 0:26:06.480 --> 0:26:08.600 ha ha, what's your secret handshake? You know what I mean? 0:26:08.800 --> 0:26:15.080 As opposed to something genuinely creepy. But he was described 0:26:15.160 --> 0:26:19.359 as as having an interest intellectually in secret things. 0:26:19.680 --> 0:26:23.919 Yeah he uh this this recollection comes from one of 0:26:23.920 --> 0:26:29.639 his former bosses, doctor Priscilla Weirrick. She had a she 0:26:29.800 --> 0:26:33.439 was in a sorority in college chi Omega, and she 0:26:33.640 --> 0:26:36.400 said that he was doing exactly what you described, nol. 0:26:36.520 --> 0:26:38.479 He was always saying, you know, what's your what's your 0:26:38.480 --> 0:26:43.840