1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:03,480 Speaker 1: Remember when Trump came in and he thought the generals 2 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 1: in the Pentagon were making millions of dollars. They told 3 00:00:07,280 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 1: him like, they make one hundred and fifty thousand dollars 4 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:11,200 Speaker 1: a year, and He's like, what, why would he do that? 5 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 1: I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry o'she I served in 6 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:19,799 Speaker 1: the CIA's Clandestine Service for twenty eight years, living undercover 7 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: all around the. 8 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 2: World, and in my thirty three years with the CIA, 9 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 2: I served in Africa, Asia, Europe, and the Middle East. 10 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: Although we don't usually look at it this way, we 11 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: created conspiracies. 12 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 2: In our operations. We got people to believe things that 13 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:34,159 Speaker 2: weren't true. 14 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:37,199 Speaker 1: Now we're investigating the conspiracy theories we see in the 15 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: news almost every day. 16 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:40,879 Speaker 2: Will break them down for you to determine whether they 17 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 2: could be real or whether we're being manipulated. 18 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 1: Welcome to Mission Implausible, Adam. 19 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 2: There's a lot of discussion about the deep state and 20 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 2: what it is and so forth. Why don't you now 21 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 2: that you know John and I, why don't you tell 22 00:00:57,320 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 2: us just how impressed you are with the deep state 23 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 2: and you know who were in it? 24 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 3: Sure, I mean, I've gotten to know two guys in particular. 25 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 3: I mean, here's how it works. You have a sort 26 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 3: of questionable background, You're somehow attracted to this large bureaucracy, 27 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 3: and apparently if you stick around long enough, you keep 28 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 3: getting promotions, and if anyone's like, well, did you accomplish anything, 29 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 3: you get to say, oh, yes, but it's top secret. 30 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 3: I can't really tell you the specific things I accomplished. 31 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:26,320 Speaker 3: So that that's my impression of the deep state. 32 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 2: Dude, you nailed it. 33 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 1: I can't argue with You're there pretty accurate. 34 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 2: The deep state. It is sort of weird though, because 35 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:36,959 Speaker 2: on the one hand people would portray us as incompetent 36 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:40,319 Speaker 2: bureaucrads and on the other were like capable of anything. 37 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 2: Which is it? 38 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: I'll just say I think a lot of it came 39 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 1: because people who don't have inexperience in government or in 40 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 1: their security. Things came in and then they just wondered 41 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 1: when they would say things at a whim, whether they 42 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 1: made sense or not, didn't just happen. And so they 43 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: said to themselves, well, there must be people there that 44 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 1: are purposely trying to stall and stop the things that 45 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 1: I'm saying should happen. Now, there is a large group 46 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 1: of professionals in Washington who have laws and regulations and 47 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 1: policies that have been built up over years, and so 48 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 1: it isn't possible when someone just says do this for 49 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 1: it to happen until it's gone through lawyers and just 50 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:20,640 Speaker 1: make sure it's legal and make sure you know everybody 51 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 1: has input into whether it makes sense, because different organizations 52 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:27,080 Speaker 1: and different partner people in the political process have different 53 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 1: opinions on things. 54 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 2: Teach state people are people who follow the rules and 55 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 2: know what the rules are. And the rules were given 56 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 2: to us by Congress, right, and they're complic called laws. Laws. Yeah, 57 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 2: so we follow the laws and then we're damned because 58 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 2: we can't ignore the laws. 59 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 3: If there's a sort of term like bureaucrat or deep state, 60 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 3: or jew or financial elite or whatever it is, a 61 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 3: lot of these are predicated on the idea that they're 62 00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 3: all thinking the exact same thing. They're all aligned and unified, 63 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 3: and they're goals and be there like actively working together. 64 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 3: And if you happen to be a member, like I'm 65 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 3: a member of the Jews, I'm a member of the 66 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 3: media elite. I think I'm now officially a member of 67 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 3: the intelligence community, right because I have bos a podcast 68 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 3: with you guys. You realize really quickly, like the two 69 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:18,240 Speaker 3: of you don't agree on a lot of stuff. The 70 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 3: idea of there being this not even the same title, 71 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 3: but sort of this a similar kind of title we 72 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 3: must all be working together is I mean it just 73 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 3: as absurd. I mean that seems to be the cornerstone 74 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:30,640 Speaker 3: of a lot of conspiracy. 75 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: There's sort of assumption, like, you know, if you're a 76 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 1: Republican president and you want certain policies that miss mean 77 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 1: the whole deep Stater is all Democrats right and want 78 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 1: of democrats in they must be all Whereas essentially there's 79 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: Democrats and Republicans inside all of this deep state. So 80 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 1: the notion that somehow we would all agree on whatever 81 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 1: this political thing is. The thing we agree on is 82 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: on the mission of our organization. Our mission of organization was, 83 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 1: you know, to keep Americans safe, but we didn't agree 84 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 1: on the policy of how to do that. 85 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 3: From things you've told me, it CIA seems filled with 86 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 3: a lot of different pretty left wing people, pretty right 87 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 3: wing people, pretty centrist people, pretty a political people right. 88 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 2: And today we're going to be taking a look at 89 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 2: conspiracy theories around what some people term is the deep 90 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 2: state and how conspiracies around that have become part and 91 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:18,600 Speaker 2: parcel of our political culture and central to it. 92 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:24,040 Speaker 1: Our guest is Mark Zaid, a well known lawyer in Washington. 93 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 1: He's an attorney. He's focused on national security issues. He 94 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 1: deals with law whistleblowers, freedom of speech issues, and he 95 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 1: has some connections to Jerry and I. He went to 96 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 1: the University of Rochester and Jerry's a Rochester native. Mark, 97 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 1: it's really great to have you here. Thanks for being 98 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 1: with us. 99 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 4: Oh, it is a pleasure to be with both of 100 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:41,480 Speaker 4: you guys. 101 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 1: So let me ask the first question. At least these 102 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 1: days and some of the things that I see you 103 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 1: getting involved with. You're a lawyer, You're preparing cases, you 104 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 1: might even have to go to court, and in being 105 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 1: a lawyer is about, you know, following the facts where 106 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: they may lead. But so much of what we're seeing 107 00:04:56,839 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 1: nowadays is politicians sort of spewing and things that just 108 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 1: don't have any relation to reality. And how do you 109 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 1: square those things? How do you defend people when the 110 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 1: chargers are just sort of crazy? 111 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, it is always difficult in that sphere, and anyone 112 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 4: who has spent a good amount of time in DC 113 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:18,840 Speaker 4: will tell you how things have changed. I've been here 114 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:22,159 Speaker 4: now for thirty years, and it is a very different 115 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 4: world in DC in politics than it has ever been before, 116 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 4: which has fed a lot of the conspiracy theories. Now 117 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:33,719 Speaker 4: some of it is because of ideology and jerry mandering. 118 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 4: There's a lot more divisiveness in the country in the 119 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 4: political parties because so many seats in politics are safe, 120 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 4: which has led politicians to be more extreme because they 121 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:51,840 Speaker 4: get elected. Now that is really fundamentally important because you 122 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:55,279 Speaker 4: talk to the sort of old timers who were in office, 123 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 4: and Democrats and Republican members of Congress used to share 124 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:02,599 Speaker 4: apartments together because it was expensive to have residents here 125 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 4: in DC. It was also harder to go back home, 126 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 4: more expensive to go back home out of the area, 127 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 4: and you didn't have communication capabilities the way we do now. 128 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 4: So the Internet and the minimization of transportation costs also 129 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 4: has actually fed into these problems that we have today. 130 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 2: I want to come back to you being an insider. 131 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, So the first thing I have to smirk it 132 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 4: what every time I'm called an insider, and in some 133 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 4: ways i am, But I have never served in the 134 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 4: federal government at all, and I have always represented individuals 135 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 4: I'll say, against the US government, you know, representing folks 136 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 4: like you guys when you're inside the agency and you've 137 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 4: got a security clearance issue, a personnel dispute, an IG complaint, 138 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 4: you're being investigated by security, whatever it might be. Conspiracy 139 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 4: theories actually got me into the world that I work 140 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:57,840 Speaker 4: in today, But it was particularly the Kennedy assassination that 141 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 4: brought me and interested me in dealing with the CIA 142 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 4: and accountability. But because I've represented so many people, one 143 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 4: hundreds thousands over the thirty years, yeah, I guess I'm 144 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 4: part of the deep state, as President Trump would call it, well, 145 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 4: even though that's what I fight against every day, and 146 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 4: I'd say he's more of the deep state than what 147 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 4: he says. 148 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 2: The question is often cult or conspiracy. Is this like 149 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 2: they're in a cult and this is now what they 150 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 2: believe or is it a conspiracy and like they know 151 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 2: it's not true. 152 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 4: It is a fair question, you pose. There's no doubt 153 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 4: that there are some who completely know they're spewing crap 154 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 4: and what they're saying is absolutely false, and they're just 155 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 4: doing it for whatever reason to get a rise out 156 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 4: of someone to fuel fundraising, to gain strength in powers 157 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 4: and number, whatever it might be. And then there are 158 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 4: the others, which are probably frankly the majority, generalizing, ignorant, naive, 159 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 4: and fall in line with what they believe. When I 160 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 4: was a freshman in college, I took a course on 161 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 4: the Holocaust. Their maternal grandfather was a rabbi for the 162 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 4: US Army liberated Docau. We had to do a paper 163 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 4: and the paper was why Germany? And thirty five years 164 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 4: ago I had a lot of trouble understanding how this unbelievable, intellectual, cultural, 165 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 4: westernized country, pinnacle of the pinnacle of Europe became what 166 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 4: Hitler turned it into. And obviously it's an extreme that 167 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 4: we thankfully don't have here. But you look at the 168 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 4: early days of national socialism in the late nineteen twenties, 169 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:39,200 Speaker 4: in the early thirties, and I think we have I 170 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 4: do at least a much better sense of how Germany 171 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 4: became what it became in watching how Maga and the 172 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 4: ultimate Trump supporters have become what they are. You know, hey, 173 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 4: Jewish space lacers. You know Marjorie Taylor Green where she 174 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 4: Trump's vice president. Would I have a concern for my 175 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 4: well being as a Jew, as a lawyer, as an 176 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 4: opponent to their beliefs. Oh, hell yeah, let's. 177 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 1: Take a break. 178 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:06,440 Speaker 4: We'll be right back. 179 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 2: And Rebecca, So, I want to talk. 180 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 1: A little bit about one of the conspiracies that seems 181 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:20,680 Speaker 1: to be bandied about around a lot nowadays is about 182 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 1: the deep state. And so I know you've defended whistleblowers 183 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:27,079 Speaker 1: for years. Are these people insiders that are telling us 184 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 1: things that we should be worried about with our national security, 185 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 1: the agencies? 186 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:34,560 Speaker 4: So my understanding of what deep states somebody had said 187 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 4: that term to me fifteen years ago. You know, you've 188 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 4: got to be careful about the deep state. You know, 189 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 4: that brings to my mind Eisenhower's statement at the end 190 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 4: of his tenure about the military industrial complex taking over 191 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 4: the US government, or thinking about the Gestapo in Nazi Germany, 192 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 4: who are sort of the secret government doing what they 193 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 4: want without any regard to the rule of law or 194 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 4: the policies and procedures that were in play at the time. 195 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:09,680 Speaker 4: And somehow that term deep state has been twisted by 196 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:14,080 Speaker 4: former President Trump and his supporters to mean essentially anyone 197 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 4: who challenges their authority, even lawfully. You know, the whole 198 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 4: notion of representing whistleblowers and the existence of them. It 199 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:26,680 Speaker 4: is still looked at as a somewhat bad word and 200 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 4: it is not anything I would ever wish upon someone 201 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:31,440 Speaker 4: to be a whistleblower. It is not a fun thing. 202 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:35,319 Speaker 4: You do not generally gain any rewards from it. There 203 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 4: are certain types of cases where you can make a 204 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 4: lot of money as being a whistleblower, but those are 205 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 4: called keytam cases, and those are generally basically revealing fraud 206 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 4: upon the US government by a contractor. That entity is 207 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 4: fined and the whistleblower gets a percentage of that find 208 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 4: which could be tens of millions of dollars. But it's 209 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 4: been twisted now of course, the fake whistleblower again, because 210 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 4: I don't want to just beat up on President Trump, 211 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 4: although there's so much to beat up on. It's both sides. 212 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 2: The term deep state, for me, I struggle with it 213 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 2: strikes me as a meaningless, chivalous that lends itself to 214 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 2: conspiracy theories. The deep state is made up of like 215 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 2: tens of thousands of people who will mostly live in 216 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:23,560 Speaker 2: Northern Virginia, who are your neighbors who have struggled with 217 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 2: mortgages and with their kids and have rules and regulations, 218 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 2: and they're not some coherent group that like secretly rules things. 219 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:39,679 Speaker 2: And so when that term is used, it's like the Illuminati. 220 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 2: It means everything and nothing. And let me ask you 221 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 2: to come in on one just instance in how this 222 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 2: would actually could work in the real world, which I 223 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:52,839 Speaker 2: don't think it does. So President Trump a while ago 224 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 2: retweeted that bin Laden was still alive and that President 225 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 2: Obama had murdered her assass all the people who would 226 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 2: supposedly claim to have killed him on Sealed Team six. 227 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 2: In the world that we live in, there would have 228 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 2: to be a deep state that would I mean, think 229 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 2: about this. There's the widows who would all have to 230 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 2: be quiet. The people who carried this out would all 231 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 2: have to be like incredibly loyal after all these years 232 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:24,200 Speaker 2: still to Obama, and where's Osama bin Lad and if 233 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 2: he still kept out? And yet an idea like this 234 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:30,199 Speaker 2: can be put out and explained with two words deep state? 235 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:33,080 Speaker 2: How would you define deep state? And how do you 236 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:34,080 Speaker 2: see it defined? 237 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, So, when I first came to d C, I 238 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 4: spent then and I still do now a lot of 239 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 4: time on the Kennedy assassination. I was a sort of 240 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:45,960 Speaker 4: up and coming youngster as a twenty five year old 241 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:49,960 Speaker 4: inheriting the mantle from the first generation who were alive 242 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 4: when Kennedy was killed. And I realized as a result 243 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 4: of all that there is no way that so many 244 00:12:56,800 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 4: of the conspiracy theories that people believe could be true, 245 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:01,559 Speaker 4: because there's no way the CIA and some of the 246 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 4: other agencies could have pulled it off. And if they 247 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 4: could have pulled it off, there's no way in hell 248 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 4: they could have kept it secret for so many years. 249 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 4: The system just doesn't work that way. Are there really 250 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 4: really cool secrets that are still secret? Yeah? You know, 251 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:18,560 Speaker 4: the three of us know that is absolutely true. We 252 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 4: may know the same cool ones, but for the most part, 253 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 4: it's very seldom that something so momentous has so few 254 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 4: people that every one of them could keep something secret. 255 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 4: One of my favorite conspiracy theories has always been the 256 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:37,200 Speaker 4: Lockness Monster, so much so that when I lived in 257 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:39,679 Speaker 4: England in the late eighties working for the British government, 258 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 4: I went up to Lockness in Inverness, Scotland and spent 259 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 4: hours walking around the lock just looking for NeSSI you know, 260 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 4: turned out to be if you believe that, you know 261 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 4: decades later where these guys came forward and said that 262 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 4: they concocted the whole thing. They made this like paper 263 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 4: mache dinosaur and took photos of it. And then there 264 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:04,200 Speaker 4: was another guy. He had a hippopotamus leg, real hippoponymous 265 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 4: leg umbrella stand that he would take and walk around 266 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 4: the lock and put footprint in the sand that people 267 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:15,960 Speaker 4: would see. Those were theories or conspiracies that were created 268 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 4: by a small number of people, one to three people, 269 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 4: and usually within the same family, so that they could 270 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 4: keep those secrets until someone's on their deathbed, and set 271 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 4: finally says what happened the stuff that we're talking about 272 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 4: with the deep state, as you describe this vast military 273 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 4: industrial complex where everybody's involved, it's not the way our 274 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 4: government works. Our government is so bureaucratic. The government is 275 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 4: like an ocean liner or a freight train. It takes 276 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:49,840 Speaker 4: a mile to stop. People think the federal government is 277 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 4: like this one monolithic entity, whereas you could have a 278 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 4: war between one agency versus the other agency. They're not 279 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 4: working together at all. I was a tam with one case, 280 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 4: a very senior Department of Defense official within the IC agencies, 281 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 4: all sorts of wrongdoing, all sorts of personality problems that 282 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 4: people didn't like this person, and there was an IG 283 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 4: report that even found a whole bunch of stuff. So 284 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 4: what was done. The person's not fired, they were just 285 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 4: moved to another position. 286 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: We'd call that passing the trash. 287 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 2: It's really hard to fire someone. 288 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 4: I have a lot of clients who might disagree with 289 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 4: that because they got fired. 290 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 2: But yeah, rule you know, we could talk about someone. 291 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 2: I've tried to get some of those people fired. 292 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 4: Hey, sometimes I got to tell you. Sometimes I agree 293 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 4: that that my clients should be I will do my 294 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 4: best not to have them fired. But I'm behind the 295 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 4: scenes going, oh man, I can't I get even hired 296 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 4: in the first place. 297 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 2: I just went you up in and ask for some 298 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 2: free legal advice. So what is a conspiracy legally? If 299 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 2: what you've outlined, if someone knows something is false, a 300 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 2: group of people know it's false, and yet they put 301 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 2: it out there to trick other people to make money, 302 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 2: is that a conspiracy legally? 303 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 4: So, a conspiracy is generally two or more people who 304 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 4: conspire to engage in an overt conduct. Give you an example. 305 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 4: And this is what's frustrating too. The recent Georgia indictment 306 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 4: which has rico charges. You know, it was written to 307 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 4: go after organized crime predominantly, and the notion is you 308 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 4: can have individuals engaged in lawful conduct, but it's part 309 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 4: of an unlawful conspiracy. And there are a lot of 310 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 4: the paragraphs set forth in this complaint of which the 311 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 4: conduct is completely lawful, protected by First Amendment, but it 312 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 4: was in furtherance of an unlawful conspiracy. And you can 313 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 4: see you just look at Twitter, or you look at 314 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 4: any right wing media will they'll seize upon the lawful 315 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 4: conduct in the one paragraph to say, oh, now the 316 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 4: Democrats are criminalizing the First Amendment, And no it's not. 317 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 4: This is an established legal precedent to take lawful conduct, 318 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 4: but to carve it into in furtherance of an unlawful conspiracy. 319 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 4: So if you think of money laundering, I just finished 320 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 4: watching Breaking Bad. But you know the notion of you 321 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:21,920 Speaker 4: earn all this money by cooking meth that's illegal. You 322 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 4: take the unlawful money, and you lawfully purchase a car wash, 323 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:32,919 Speaker 4: that's lawful, running the car wash completely lawful. When the 324 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:36,679 Speaker 4: government finds out that you earned that money from a 325 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 4: criminal enterprise, they can seize the lawful car wash because 326 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 4: the lawful transaction relates to the unlawful conspiracy. 327 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:50,240 Speaker 2: Thanks Mark, it's always great talking to a fellow upstate 328 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 2: New Yorker and wishing you good things in future endeavors. 329 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 2: Now we'd like to welcome back Adam Davidson. 330 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 3: Can't keep me away. But first we'll take a quick 331 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 3: break and then I'm going to have a bunch of questions. 332 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:11,119 Speaker 3: Welcome back to Mission implausible. So John and Jerry, we 333 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 3: just learned all about the deep state. I mean, you 334 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 3: are exactly the deep state, and he has a. 335 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:19,120 Speaker 2: Great dental plan. I want to get that out there. 336 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 3: So one thing that I find so interesting about this 337 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 3: particular conspiracy theory is that there is a bureaucracy. There 338 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:28,879 Speaker 3: are people who work in government. I mean, it's a 339 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 3: kind of conspiracy that's like taking a thing that exists 340 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 3: and giving it more malign intent and coordination than it 341 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 3: really has. But it's not inventing a thing that doesn't exist. 342 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 1: What's interesting is it's actually a very clever conspiracy. It's 343 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:46,120 Speaker 1: weaponizing sort of concerns that people have. So if you're 344 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 1: if you're a leader like former President Trump was, for example, 345 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:52,639 Speaker 1: and you can't just dictate and get your ways. You 346 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 1: can call it a deep state, but what what I 347 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 1: would call is sort of an existing professional bureaucracy of 348 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:03,440 Speaker 1: public servants who are in inhibited by laws, regulations, norms, 349 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:08,200 Speaker 1: professional standards, making sure that everything is written down, everything 350 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 1: is put through processes to get done. You can't just 351 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:14,479 Speaker 1: say invade Syria and expect that the next day are 352 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 1: people going to invade serious So I can imagine that 353 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 1: if you came in from the outside you don't understand 354 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 1: how government works, you say, well, they're not doing exactly 355 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 1: what I said. They think different than me, Their political 356 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 1: enemies are trying to stop what I'm trying to accomplish, 357 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 1: whereas those of us who worked in that space, we 358 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:32,440 Speaker 1: understand that, No, there's a lot of things. Over time, 359 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 1: civil service rules regulations have been put in place to 360 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 1: make sure that when the government takes action, it's done openly. 361 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:44,440 Speaker 1: It's done with input from the necessary bureaucracies and other agencies, 362 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 1: but it's not done for nefarious or political reasons, which 363 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 1: is what the term deep state suggests. The US government 364 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:55,639 Speaker 1: is huge. These agencies are complex and complicated. It's so 365 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 1: complex you can't get your head around it. It's easier 366 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 1: just to say, oh, they're evil, or they're working against 367 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 1: my president or what have you. 368 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 2: And it's dehumanizing as well. It's sort of along the 369 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:11,200 Speaker 2: lines of referring to the honorable opposition as radical Marxist 370 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:15,159 Speaker 2: Democrats or fascist Republicans or Rhinos, when these are just 371 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:17,880 Speaker 2: people that view things differently and do things differently. 372 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:19,880 Speaker 3: I will say, the friends of mine who've been sort 373 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:23,400 Speaker 3: of permanent civil servants, actually I find it almost annoying 374 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:26,920 Speaker 3: when they work for an administration that I know politically 375 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:30,919 Speaker 3: they're not aligned with, how obsessively nonpartisan they are. I 376 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 3: can think of one administration fairly recently. It's not the 377 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 3: current one, but it was recent where I actually felt 378 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 3: like we needed a little more deep state, We needed 379 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 3: more of that civil servant to say this isn't okay. 380 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 2: Right, we take an oath on the Constitution, not to 381 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 2: a particular president or political party, and it's not like 382 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:54,800 Speaker 2: we want to have a dictator, like even for a day. 383 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:57,239 Speaker 3: What is it like when you're we don't even have 384 00:20:57,280 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 3: to get into all your politics are, but like, have 385 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:02,919 Speaker 3: you had to support missions that you weren't personally totally 386 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 3: sold on? 387 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:07,199 Speaker 2: You know? Iraq War weapons of mass destruction. I have 388 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 2: to admit that I changed my mind on that. I 389 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 2: believed at the time, deeply, truly that we had the 390 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 2: evidence on there. 391 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:17,679 Speaker 1: Also with the CIA, it's a weird institution, and we 392 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:21,919 Speaker 1: take pride in sometimes actually telling administrations and things they 393 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:23,719 Speaker 1: don't want to hear. And it's our job to come 394 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:26,680 Speaker 1: in and say, well, sir, that's just actually not how 395 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 1: it's playing out here. Your plan is not likely to 396 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:33,000 Speaker 1: work for ab and C reasons. And it allows young 397 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:35,960 Speaker 1: officers to go into very senior places in the government 398 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 1: and tell people that we think that they're wrong or 399 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 1: that we have information that goes against what they would 400 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 1: like it to be. 401 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:46,679 Speaker 2: Serving an administration, Republican or Democrat is more than just 402 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 2: the executive bridge more than just the president. Right, we 403 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:53,160 Speaker 2: have congressional overlords. They control our budget, and when we 404 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 2: deal with them off the front pages of the newspaper, 405 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 2: when we sit down and we brief congressmen and senators 406 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:01,880 Speaker 2: in our st or we go up to the hill 407 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 2: and we testify in confidential circumstances. Most of them are 408 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:09,159 Speaker 2: pretty reasonable folks, and they get along better than you 409 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:13,399 Speaker 2: might expect. Republicans and Democrats certainly on things like national security. 410 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 3: And as you're doing analysis, and this is true for 411 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:20,160 Speaker 3: journalism or deep state members like yourself. If you're analyzing 412 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 3: I don't know the fighting strength of Ukraine or something 413 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 3: like that. You might have your preferences or whatever, but 414 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:29,120 Speaker 3: if you're really dialed into like the latest talking points 415 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:32,439 Speaker 3: on whatever cable news channel, it messes you up. You 416 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 3: get your analysis is wrong. 417 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:37,400 Speaker 2: So there's the term deep state. And if you think 418 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:40,399 Speaker 2: about it, well, what's a shallow state? You know? And 419 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 2: we've served in places with shallow states that don't have 420 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:46,680 Speaker 2: deep roots, where there isn't a rule of law, and 421 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,640 Speaker 2: where you know, a leader just by whim can change things. 422 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 2: And we don't want to live in those places. I mean, 423 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 2: who wants to live in Somalia or Afghanistan where you 424 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,679 Speaker 2: know the next dictator can come in and change everything, 425 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 2: and where civil servants will sit anything and do anything, 426 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 2: take any bribe to just make it to the next paycheck. 427 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 2: You know, the deep state, where things are deeply anchored 428 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 2: in law and order and culture. That's what we want. 429 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 1: And expertise, right, so the notions of a new leader 430 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 1: comes in, everybody leaves the intelligence officers, the diplomats, the 431 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,440 Speaker 1: military people. Everybody leaves because the leader has his own people, 432 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 1: and that goes back and forth and back and forth. 433 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 1: What we've created in this country over hundreds of years 434 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:31,080 Speaker 1: is you know, a civil service, a public service that 435 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 1: has expertise that's meant to be there to help inform 436 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:37,400 Speaker 1: politicians when they do come in. And so we've decided 437 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 1: that the world is complex and we need people who 438 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 1: are experts and work on issues for decades rather than 439 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:44,200 Speaker 1: just leaving every couple of years. 440 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 2: I remember in Okay it was it was a rock. 441 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:50,479 Speaker 2: I can say this but this because it's over. But 442 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 2: one of the heads of their law enforcement agencies was 443 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:58,439 Speaker 2: a failed doctor who was only allowed to work on 444 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:02,360 Speaker 2: dead people. He was only allowed to do autopsies, and 445 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,639 Speaker 2: he was related to the right person. And so here's 446 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 2: a guy who failed medical school, who has no background 447 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:12,479 Speaker 2: in law enforcement is now running basically one of their 448 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 2: versions of the FBI. Do you really want this guy 449 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 2: running the FBI who doesn't know anything and is probably 450 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 2: only going to be there for two years. You know, 451 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,440 Speaker 2: that's a shallow state, and that's you know, doesn't serve 452 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:25,439 Speaker 2: the Iraqi people. Well, doesn't serve us. 453 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 1: Well, now, I bet he was good at stealing money 454 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 1: for his relative. 455 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 2: You bet you he wants He is two years at 456 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:32,560 Speaker 2: the troth and he was going to take it right. 457 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 3: And I'm not going to sit here and have the 458 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:36,120 Speaker 3: Iraqi government insulted in this way. 459 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:40,920 Speaker 2: So yeah, let's coach sha state. 460 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,239 Speaker 3: You know, well, there's a term in political economy that 461 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,439 Speaker 3: comes out of analysis of Middle Eastern governments, and they 462 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 3: use the language of strong states and weak states, and 463 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 3: the way it's defined as a it's a little counterintuitive 464 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 3: that a weak state like Iraq is a state where 465 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 3: they have to continually rein enforce their power. So, you know, 466 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:06,720 Speaker 3: Saddam or Mubarik or whomever sort of knows they're always 467 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,520 Speaker 3: an uprising away from being destroyed, and so they need 468 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 3: to constantly remind people we're big, we're strong. We're big, 469 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 3: we're strong. We're big, We're strong. And that leads to 470 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 3: a kind of violent repression of the people. It leads 471 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,680 Speaker 3: to the corruption, et ceteracause if the mentality is, look, 472 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,960 Speaker 3: my third cousin is prime minister now or president now, 473 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 3: but that's not going to last forever. I better get 474 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 3: everything I can, you know, it's like the old pre 475 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,359 Speaker 3: model in Mexico, where you have a six year term 476 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:35,840 Speaker 3: to make all the money you're going to make for 477 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:39,159 Speaker 3: your life, so you better use it wisely. Whereas a 478 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 3: strong state is not a strong handed state. It's a 479 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 3: state where the state itself is a functioning entity that 480 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:53,399 Speaker 3: doesn't need to be continually reinforced. Resiliency, Yeah, resiliency is 481 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,719 Speaker 3: built in and we may be weirdly trying to destroy 482 00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:58,120 Speaker 3: that in the US, or some people are. 483 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:01,239 Speaker 2: But let's use critical thinking on the demographics of the 484 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,199 Speaker 2: deep state. If you're if you are a member of 485 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,920 Speaker 2: the civil service, A you're never going to be rich, right, 486 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:09,880 Speaker 2: I mean, you're not going to be poor, but you're 487 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 2: not making lots of money. You're making just enough so 488 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 2: that you're not likely going to be tempted by bribes. 489 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,359 Speaker 2: Not that it doesn't happen, but you're making enough so 490 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:20,399 Speaker 2: that you know you're not going to look for like 491 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 2: three hundred bucks to change your opinion on something like 492 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,360 Speaker 2: happens in Mexico and some of these other places where 493 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 2: they don't pay their civil servants enough. These are people 494 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 2: who have agreed to stay in positions for decades to 495 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 2: do the best job they can for a basic amount 496 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 2: of pay. They basically carry out the dictates of the 497 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 2: people in Congress who rail against them. You make a law, 498 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:43,920 Speaker 2: you say this is the way it is. You tell 499 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:46,240 Speaker 2: people this is how you're going to operate, and then 500 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:47,679 Speaker 2: you criticize them for doing so. 501 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 1: Remember when Trump came in and he thought the generals 502 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 1: in the Pentagon were making millions of dollars, They told 503 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:56,960 Speaker 1: him like, they make one hundred and fifty thousand dollars 504 00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 1: a year. He's like, what, why would you do that? Well, 505 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 1: then it says, oh, they're losers. They're losers because they 506 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:03,240 Speaker 1: could be making more money some other way. 507 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:05,879 Speaker 3: I was in China once when they happen to release 508 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 3: like the richest fifty richest people in China list a 509 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,159 Speaker 3: bunch of business people, and someone I was with was like, 510 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:14,439 Speaker 3: the fifty riches people in China are a bunch of 511 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:16,440 Speaker 3: generals whose names you're never going to hear. 512 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 2: The same in Russia. Yeah, it's the rich guys or 513 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 2: the guys of the intelligence community. At the generals. 514 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, they take pictures of these sort of bureau meetings 515 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:27,120 Speaker 1: and then you look at their watches and they're wearing 516 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:30,240 Speaker 1: like three hundred thousand dollars watches, and you know, twenty 517 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 1: thousand dollars suits, and these guys supposedly you're making you know, 518 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:34,160 Speaker 1: sixty thousand dollars a year. 519 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 3: All right, guys, well, thanks so much for trying to 520 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,600 Speaker 3: persuade people you're not part of a vast deep state. 521 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 3: I don't think you pulled it off, but it was 522 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:44,120 Speaker 3: interesting to watch the attempt. 523 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:46,480 Speaker 2: Andam, will we be sending you an application to join 524 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:46,920 Speaker 2: the deeps? 525 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:47,719 Speaker 4: I'd love to. 526 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:49,919 Speaker 3: I've rather been waiting to be asked. 527 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:59,400 Speaker 5: Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry Osha, John Cipher, 528 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 5: Jonathan Sterner. The associate producer is Rachel Harner. Mission Implausible 529 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 5: is a production of Honorable Mention and Abominable Pictures for 530 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 5: iHeartMedia