1 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:05,400 Speaker 1: On December fifth, nineteen eighty four, the naked body of 2 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: a sixteen year old girl was found in a wooded 3 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:10,720 Speaker 1: area of Lynbrook, Long Island. The victim had been last 4 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:13,400 Speaker 1: seen leaving her job at a local roller rink about 5 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 1: a month earlier. The medical examiner determined that the cause 6 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:19,959 Speaker 1: of death was ligature strangulation and seamen found on her 7 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: Baginal swabs suggested that she had been raped. By March 8 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty five, authorities believed that this rape and murder 9 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 1: were connected to similar disappearance as an investigator started focusing 10 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:33,519 Speaker 1: on Dennis Halstead, who was believed to have been associated 11 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:37,159 Speaker 1: with another young woman who had disappeared. John Restivo had 12 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: been interviewed as part of this investigation and mentioned that 13 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 1: he was acquainted with John Cogut, an occasional employee of 14 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: his and his brother's moving business. After cogd was given 15 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 1: three polygraphs, police asserted that he lied when denying involvement 16 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 1: with the disappearance of the sixteen year old victim. He 17 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:56,639 Speaker 1: endured twelve hours of aggressive interrogation and eventually he cracked 18 00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: and signed a confession that was handwritten by one of 19 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 1: the detectives. The sixth version of events given by Cogd, 20 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:07,120 Speaker 1: containing information all of which was previously known to investigators. 21 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:09,320 Speaker 2: According to Kogo's false. 22 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: Confession, the victim voluntarily got into Restivo's van, where Cogd 23 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 1: and Halsted stripped her and Halsted raped her. Further into 24 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 1: this coerce statement, he said that when they arrived at 25 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 1: a cemetery, Restivo also raped her and Cogit strangled her. 26 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:24,560 Speaker 2: When she regained. 27 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 1: Consciousness and became frantic. With the false confession at a 28 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:30,679 Speaker 1: number of hairs found in Restivo's band said to have 29 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:33,400 Speaker 1: matched the victims. The three men were tried over the 30 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 1: course of nineteen eighty six. John Cogo was tried separately 31 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: and convicted of rape and murder in March, then Is 32 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 1: Halsted and John Restivo in November. Through the concerted efforts 33 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 1: of Centurion Ministries, Paced Law School's Post Conviction Clinic, Private Council, 34 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: and the Innocence Project, the defense used police department property 35 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: records to finally locate and test intact baginal swabs for 36 00:01:56,240 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: DNA in two thousand and three, ultimately excluding the three 37 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 1: men as the perpetrators. John Restivo spoke with US at 38 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:08,639 Speaker 1: the Atlanta Innocis Network conference. To tell their horrifying story. Together, 39 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: they spent over half a century in prison for a 40 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 1: crime they did not commit. This is wrongful Conviction with 41 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 1: Jason plom Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. I'm especially excited 42 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 1: today because I've got a guest who I've wanted to 43 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 1: have on my podcast from long before I even had 44 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 1: a podcast. So ever since I read your story in 45 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:42,240 Speaker 1: The New Yorker, John Restivo, I've been sort of in 46 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 1: awe of your story, your your case, your everything. So 47 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 1: I'm really I'm really happy you're here. 48 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:50,919 Speaker 3: Yeah, what a long, strange trip it's been. 49 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, how about it? 50 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 1: And like I always say, I'm sorry you're here, but 51 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 1: I'm happy you're here. 52 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:57,519 Speaker 2: So and with you. 53 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: Nina Morrison is a return guest on this year today. 54 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:03,920 Speaker 1: Nina is the senior staff attorney at the Innocence Project 55 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 1: in New York. 56 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:06,359 Speaker 2: Welcome back, Thank. 57 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:06,800 Speaker 3: You, Jason. 58 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 4: It's always so nice to be. 59 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: Here, and this is going to be an amazing experience 60 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 1: for me, I think for everyone who's listening as well, 61 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 1: mainly because of you, John. So let's get right into it. 62 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 1: So and Yours is a New York case, right, which 63 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 1: makes it personal to me as a New Yorker, a 64 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 1: lifelong New Yorker and just by way of background, John 65 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 1: was convicted of a rape murder along with two other 66 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 1: innocent men and sentenced to thirty three and a half 67 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 1: years of life. Could well have been executed if not 68 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 1: for Governor Mario Cuomo blocking repeatedly the death penalty in 69 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 1: New York State. I think that's an important thing to 70 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 1: touch on. But let's go back to it. All these 71 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 1: crimes we talk about are horrible. This one is particularly terrible, right. 72 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 1: This is the rape and murder of a young girl, 73 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:56,119 Speaker 1: sixteen year old girl. And obviously everybody wants to see 74 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 1: those crimes solved, but they don't want to see it 75 00:03:58,560 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: solved this way. 76 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 2: I mean, when we get the wrong people. 77 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 1: Locked up, whoever it is that did this was free 78 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 1: to commit other heinous crimes. But take us back to 79 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 1: the crime itself. And how did you first hear about it? 80 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 1: I mean you were at the time, you were in 81 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 1: the moving business. 82 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 2: What were you doing? 83 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:16,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, I was in a moving business with my brother, right, 84 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 3: And when young lady disappeared, we had seen articles in 85 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:25,279 Speaker 3: the newspaper there was missing persons, flies on different store 86 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:29,799 Speaker 3: windows or telephone polls, so people in the community knew 87 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 3: that the young lady who was missing, which town was 88 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:35,159 Speaker 3: this just was in Limbrook, New York, in Nasall County 89 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:39,160 Speaker 3: all around. Yeah, And there was a couple of articles 90 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 3: in the newspaper. So approximately three weeks later, a body 91 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 3: is found and it's identified as being her body. And 92 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:52,479 Speaker 3: now instead of it being a missing person's case, it's 93 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:53,599 Speaker 3: a homicide. 94 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 1: And this case, it's got so many layers because you 95 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 1: have three guys with makes it really specially tragic because 96 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: the other two guys that were convicted of the same 97 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:06,360 Speaker 1: time that you were convicted of were just as innocent 98 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: as you were. But one of them confessed, right, and 99 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 1: we know how that goes as well. But every one 100 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 1: of those even inside of that false confession, there's a 101 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:17,039 Speaker 1: lot of nuance to those situations. 102 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:18,720 Speaker 2: Do you want to talk about that? Because I was 103 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 2: a guy named Kogut, right. 104 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:24,720 Speaker 3: Well, part of the problem with the interrogation process that 105 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 3: he was put through is that the police lied to him. 106 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 3: And I understand, okay, the police are allowed to lie 107 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 3: to you, but he took a light detechnist and the 108 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 3: police told him he failed the light detecttists and we 109 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 3: had experts that actually viewed the you know, the polycharts, 110 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 3: and our experts said that, you know, he didn't lie, right, 111 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 3: that he was telling the truth, but the detectives used 112 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 3: that as a tool against him. You know, while this 113 00:05:57,839 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 3: guy is being you know, he's in a small room 114 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 3: with a couple of these let's call them thugs, because 115 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 3: it's that's what they are. Don't get me wrong. I'm 116 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 3: not calling all police thugs. We need the police, and 117 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:12,840 Speaker 3: I'm not saying it. And that's yeah, so I'm not 118 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 3: calling all police bad. But so they held that over 119 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 3: his head, saying that, okay, you lied during the polygraph test, 120 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 3: which was an actual lie. I mean they were lying 121 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 3: to him, right, And their polygraph expert said, well, I 122 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 3: don't really go buy the charts. I go by the 123 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:37,040 Speaker 3: person's demeanor while i'm giving them, well, i'm giving them 124 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:37,479 Speaker 3: the test. 125 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:41,600 Speaker 4: It's just a tool they're using to interrogate someone. It's 126 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 4: not and polygraphs are not you know, people can debate 127 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 4: whether they have any utility for determining if someone is 128 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:52,479 Speaker 4: or is not telling the truth, but police have used 129 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:56,359 Speaker 4: them for decades as part of what they the experts 130 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 4: now call a guilt presumptive interrogation where they bring somebody 131 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 4: in they've already decided based on these subjective factors, like 132 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:05,600 Speaker 4: I get a feeling he's not telling me the truth, 133 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:08,280 Speaker 4: or they think they have other evidence the person did it, 134 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 4: and once they decide that the person is guilty, the 135 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 4: interrogation is not a search for the truth, it's a 136 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 4: search for a confession. 137 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 3: In the false confession, right, everything that the police had known, right, 138 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 3: every fact that they knew, right, was incorporated into this confession. Right, 139 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 3: the young lady disappears in early November of nineteen eighty four. 140 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 3: They're interrogating COVID in early March of nineteen eighty five. 141 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 3: And according to the police, in this false confession, this 142 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 3: fact's coming out of color of pokabook, color of sneakies. 143 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 3: I mean things that no normal person could ever remember. 144 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 3: You know, last week? What did you have a breakfast 145 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 3: last Monday? I mean, like every fact was known, even 146 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 3: like the piece of jewelry that they recovered that she 147 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 3: had been wearing. Right, he supposedly remembers the type of jewelry. 148 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 3: And since it was all fictitious to begin with, right, 149 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 3: every fact that they knew was incorporated into the false 150 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:25,600 Speaker 3: confession except one thing. The police didn't know the colored 151 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 3: blouse or shirt that she was wearing on the night 152 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:32,199 Speaker 3: she disappeared. And that's the only thing that wasn't incorporated 153 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 3: into this false confession. So, according to all of the experts, 154 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 3: they considered as a classic false confession because no normal 155 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 3: person would be able to actually remember all of these facts. 156 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:48,200 Speaker 3: There were just too many facts incorporated into this confession 157 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:49,400 Speaker 3: for it to be reliable. 158 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 1: Okay, now we know that COVID confessed, but how did 159 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: that lead to your case being brought to where it 160 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 1: went and ultimately you being con and almost executed. 161 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:05,839 Speaker 3: The police they incorporate my name and Dennis's name into 162 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 3: the false confession because in a way, the police had 163 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 3: us labeled as suspects. I don't believe that we were 164 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 3: labeled as targets. I personally believed that they were going 165 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 3: to frame us one way to the other. Right, Dennis, 166 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 3: I wouldn't have a clue. I wouldn't have a clue 167 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 3: after COVID confessed falsely confessed. Now my family retained a 168 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 3: private investigator. We're trying to figure out where I was 169 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 3: on the night this younger lady disappeared. We figured out 170 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:40,720 Speaker 3: where I was through receipts because I had just purchased 171 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 3: the house, and that weekend I was standing the floors. 172 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 3: I was an ouse all night. That evening, I was 173 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 3: on the phone with my girlfriend who was pregnant. We 174 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 3: were putting pollutane on the floor, so she was pregnant. 175 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 3: She couldn't be in an house. She was out of mother. 176 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 3: So we had phone right kids, We had receipts, so 177 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 3: we knew exactly where we were. Where I was right 178 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:01,560 Speaker 3: and Dennis was with his kids another town, and Kovid 179 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 3: was at a birthday party in another town. We didn't 180 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:07,559 Speaker 3: even lay eyes on each other that whole weekend. And 181 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 3: beyond that, the three of us were never together in 182 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 3: that van as a threesome ever, and we all had 183 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 3: independent alibis, And by the time we got the trial, 184 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 3: they took my independent alibi witness because the guy who 185 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 3: was helping me, he was a friend at the time. 186 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 3: He was helping me stand the floors, right, he was 187 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 3: at the house all night. The cops picked him up 188 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 3: up the street. They bring him in for ten or 189 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 3: twelve hours and they tell him that, well, if you 190 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 3: don't tell us what we want to hear right, you're 191 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:42,320 Speaker 3: gonna end up in jail with them. So they've actually 192 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 3: flipped my independent alibi witness from my witness to their witness. 193 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:52,439 Speaker 3: And he actually gave damage and testimony against me a trial, 194 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:57,679 Speaker 3: and at the civil trial during his testimony, the judge 195 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 3: actually stopped the proceedings, had the jury removed and told 196 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 3: him that you're on the borderline of being charged with 197 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 3: perjury here because he had changed his testimony so many times, right, 198 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 3: and when he testified at the criminal trial, he lied, right, 199 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:19,840 Speaker 3: but they wouldn't give us his original grand jury testimony. 200 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 3: So it was always my opinion that his testimony was 201 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:26,959 Speaker 3: different from what he testified at the grand jury to 202 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:30,200 Speaker 3: what he testified two years later at the criminal trial, 203 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:33,080 Speaker 3: because during that time span, the cops put so much 204 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 3: pressure on his dude and flipped them. 205 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, he was in an impossible situation. It 206 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:39,080 Speaker 1: doesn't excuse what he did. 207 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 3: No, you're right. In a way, I felt bad for 208 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 3: him because he was stuck in the middle of this, right, 209 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 3: and he's under this tremendous amount of pressure by the police, 210 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 3: and he's being told, well, if you don't tell us 211 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 3: what we want to hear you're gonna end up in 212 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 3: jail with him, and he sees innocent people in jail, right, 213 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:00,960 Speaker 3: and he sees how easy it was for the police 214 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 3: to do that. 215 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 2: Exactly. 216 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 1: He knows what they're capable of because he already knows 217 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 1: you're innocent, and he knows what they're doing, So there's 218 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: no reason to not believe that they would do the. 219 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 3: Same thing, right. And then we had the other problem 220 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 3: with the police planting evidence in the van and the judge. 221 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:19,199 Speaker 3: That was a bench trial, so the judge concluded that 222 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 3: the heads that they intimated that were found in my 223 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 3: van were never in the band, right. 224 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 1: And you know, let's talk about that because that is 225 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 1: even by the standards of some of the crazy shit 226 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 1: that we see in this line of work. That's going 227 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 1: even beyond some of the misconducts. 228 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 2: You know, this is so far. They were literally. 229 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:45,560 Speaker 1: Pulling hairs from the corpse and then taking those hairs 230 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: and putting them in the van. 231 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:49,559 Speaker 2: Like who does a thing like that, Well. 232 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 4: Who does it or police who are desperate to solve 233 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:56,320 Speaker 4: a crime that has the community absolutely terrified and up 234 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 4: in arms. So what John talked about earlier about the 235 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:01,080 Speaker 4: flyers around town, I mean, this was the mid eighties, 236 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:05,439 Speaker 4: you know, bedroom community, suburban Long Island. The young woman 237 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 4: who was killed in the case that John was falsely convicted, 238 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 4: and her name is Teresa Fusco, was actually one of 239 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:14,440 Speaker 4: three young women that went missing around that time, and 240 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 4: the other two to this day, those crimes have never 241 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:18,840 Speaker 4: been solved, and for all we know, it may have 242 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 4: been the same killer or killers in those cases. But 243 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 4: by the time Teresa disappeared, she was missing for what 244 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:27,960 Speaker 4: was it John three weeks week, about three weeks before 245 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 4: her body was found. So the terror and the paranoia 246 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 4: that they're feeling in this town is only heightening. And 247 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 4: the parents, the elected officials, the teachers are saying, solve 248 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 4: this crime, solve this crime. And after she was found naked, 249 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 4: brutalized in the woods, just a horrible way to go, 250 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 4: you know. The police spent months basically bringing in every 251 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 4: working class guy between the ages of eighteen and twenty 252 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:52,760 Speaker 4: nine in town in and working them over, trying to 253 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 4: see if they could find a weak spot until they 254 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 4: get poor John Kogd who had had a really rough 255 00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:00,200 Speaker 4: life grown up in foster care. Nobody to fight for him, 256 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:02,560 Speaker 4: and even he held out for hours and hours until 257 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 4: he finally confessed, you know, and gave a false confession that, 258 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 4: as John said, was a classic false confession and that 259 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 4: it had no information that the police didn't already know, 260 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 4: so he couldn't point them to clothing or jewelry or 261 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 4: fruits of the crime or anything about her that wasn't 262 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 4: part of the police's knowledge. But everything they did know 263 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 4: almost too perfectly. But when it came to the hair. 264 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 4: As part of what was wrong with this case when 265 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 4: they decided they were going to pin it on John 266 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 4: and his two friends, is that they had no physical evidence. 267 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 4: There was no evidence against them, no DNA, no blood typing, 268 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 4: nothing of hers that was ever found with them, no 269 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 4: eyewitnesses as far as anybody knew at the time, who 270 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 4: had seen what vehicles she'd gotten into, and she was 271 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 4: leaving her job at a roller skating rink. And you know, 272 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 4: we don't say lightly that police frame people. I mean 273 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 4: a lot of times police will make bad mistakes, they 274 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 4: will cut corners, they will interview witnesses in a way 275 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 4: that's not ethical or permissible. But in this case, there 276 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 4: is actual scientific evidence that John and his co defendants 277 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:07,479 Speaker 4: got fnamed, namely Detective Vulty, the lead homicide detective, claimed 278 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 4: that he found several hairs when he finally got a 279 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 4: search warrant for John's van when he used for his 280 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 4: moving jobs. He claimed that he found several hairs that 281 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 4: were long hairs, looked just like Teresa's and microscopically appeared 282 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 4: to be the same as Teresa's hairs. We later did 283 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 4: DNA and confirmed that they were in fact her hairs. 284 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 3: So that would be pretty bad. 285 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 4: Evidence, and normally you'd think, well, that makes John guilty. 286 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 4: The problem was those hairs would have had to be 287 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 4: deposited in the van during this period when John and 288 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 4: his friends were alleged to have abducted her for just 289 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 4: a few minutes. According to the confession, they had given 290 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 4: her a ride and then raped her, and she was 291 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 4: in the van for not longer, certainly no more than 292 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 4: an hour, and then she was missing for several weeks. 293 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 4: But the hairs came from a corpse. They had this 294 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 4: decomposition at the roots of the hairs, called post mortem 295 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 4: root banding, which basically happens when hairs are attached to 296 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 4: a corpse that's decomposing, and so detective Vult he takes 297 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 4: these hairs and whether he planted them in the van 298 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 4: or just put them in an envelope marked hairs from 299 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 4: van that was back at the lab, we don't know 300 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 4: and doesn't really matter, but he lied under oath and 301 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 4: said that these hairs came from the van, and it's 302 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 4: physically impossible because she had been decomposing for several weeks 303 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 4: when these when these hairs were collected, they were from 304 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 4: her autopsy, not from the van. 305 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 1: I do believe that most people that are doing those 306 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 1: jobs are doing the best they can, and we need 307 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 1: police to keep us safe. But when you get somebody 308 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 1: like this volpee character who does the type of damage 309 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 1: that he did, they have to be held to account. 310 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 3: I mean, these detectives actually created a fictitious scenario after 311 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 3: they actually watched what we think was the actual crime scene. 312 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 3: And unbeknownst to us, the night she disappeared, a car 313 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 3: within approximately a mile of where she was last seen 314 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 3: was stolen, and when this car was recovered approximately a 315 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 3: weak later, they found a pair of blue striped jeans 316 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:07,399 Speaker 3: with one of the legs inside out in the back, 317 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 3: but the stuff underneath the see and on a missing 318 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 3: persons report when she was last seen. That's what she 319 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 3: was wearing blue stripe jeans. So the homicide cops grabbed 320 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:22,359 Speaker 3: this car, right, which was already cleaned by the owner, 321 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,919 Speaker 3: and the blue stripe jeans were thrown out by the 322 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 3: Limberth Police department. So there was police reports regarding the 323 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 3: stolen car and the blue striped jeans, right. And then 324 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:37,400 Speaker 3: there was a piece of rope missing from the car. 325 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 3: And according to theme, right, there was a piece of 326 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 3: rope similar used as what would you say, the murder weapon, right, 327 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:49,960 Speaker 3: and this was missing from the car. When they brought 328 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 3: the owner back to the area where the car was recovered, 329 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 3: they found the piece of rope. But they took a 330 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 3: picture of the piece of rope. And one would think 331 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,680 Speaker 3: that given the significance of that this piece of rope 332 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 3: would be taken into evidence and vouched, and the police 333 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:09,680 Speaker 3: say it never was. So this is information that should 334 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:12,720 Speaker 3: have been turned over to the defense, and it never was. 335 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 3: And we never found out about this information till we 336 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 3: were in the civil litigation. 337 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 2: Stage twenty something years later. 338 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:24,959 Speaker 4: Correct, I was John's innocence project lawyer. We didn't know 339 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 4: about this information. 340 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:26,439 Speaker 1: You know. 341 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:28,520 Speaker 4: A lot of times, as you know, and a lot 342 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 4: of your guests have talked about there's evidence pointing to 343 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 4: someone's innocence, and you know, certainly in this case, this 344 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 4: is evidence about where the crime occurred and what type 345 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:42,359 Speaker 4: of vehicle was used, which is a huge objective lead. 346 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 4: That's different than the entire case that was against John 347 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:49,439 Speaker 4: and his co defendants, but that is evidence. Often we 348 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 4: learn about that when we're in post conviction, meaning the 349 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 4: person's been convicted and we're litigating their appeals and we're 350 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 4: trying to exonerate them. In John's case, as I'll tell you, 351 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 4: we cleared him with DNA and other evidence that we 352 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 4: gathered as part of the Innocence Project and Centurion Ministry's 353 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 4: investigation of the case. But we didn't even know about 354 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 4: this other evidence the police had of his innocence until 355 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:13,879 Speaker 4: after he was exonerated. It only came out when he 356 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:16,399 Speaker 4: had lawyers representing him in his lawsuit against the police 357 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 4: department in the county that this all came to light. 358 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 4: So it's a really stunning fact that you can have 359 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 4: evidence of innocence that's hidden, possibly even from the DA's 360 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 4: because it was in the police file, and only come 361 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 4: out after someone's exonerated. And so his case is a 362 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 4: DNA exoneration case, but as with so many, there's other 363 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 4: evidence that could have cleared him even before he went 364 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:36,160 Speaker 4: to trial. 365 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:52,399 Speaker 1: As the son of a police officer, this must have 366 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:55,679 Speaker 1: been totally surreal to you because as much as we 367 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:57,199 Speaker 1: all grew up and when I was a son, I 368 00:19:57,240 --> 00:19:59,439 Speaker 1: had the ideas that I would become a policeman, right. 369 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:01,680 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, we all look up to firemen 370 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:04,679 Speaker 1: and cops. I think most boys do, especially growing up 371 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 1: right in the year that we grew up in. But 372 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:09,680 Speaker 1: for you, it was a very personal thing, right. You 373 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:11,439 Speaker 1: must have been very proud to have a dad who 374 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:13,680 Speaker 1: was a cop. I would think, right, right, I mean 375 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 1: I would be. But then at the same time I 376 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:20,199 Speaker 1: would expect that you must have thought that, because of 377 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:24,399 Speaker 1: the fact that your dad was in blue, that this 378 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 1: wouldn't happen to you, right, And was your dad around? 379 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 2: Was he alive at this time? 380 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,719 Speaker 3: My father passed away in January of eighty four, so 381 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 3: he wasn't around. But my father said something to me 382 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:38,239 Speaker 3: at one time while he was on the job, and 383 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 3: he told me, if you ever have a problem with 384 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 3: a top, call oil. And when the police brought me 385 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:52,919 Speaker 3: in and interrogated me for twenty plus hours. Once I 386 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 3: was released, I immediately called al. 387 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 2: Why didn't you call oil? 388 00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:59,119 Speaker 3: At first, they wouldn't let me leave, they took my 389 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 3: clock keys, they would let me hold the lawyer. You 390 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:03,439 Speaker 3: know I was there. I mean, they weren't letting me 391 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 3: go anywhere. And finally they let me go, and after 392 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:09,639 Speaker 3: twenty hours, I was so out of it. They wouldn't 393 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 3: even let me drive home. They drove me home and 394 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 3: drove my car. 395 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 2: There's so many things wrong with this that I'm just like, no. 396 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:20,480 Speaker 3: This is a complicated case. There's no doubt about it, 397 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:32,119 Speaker 3: and I'm just glad it's over it. But what the 398 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 3: cops did to me, right, it's unfortunate that they can 399 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:39,639 Speaker 3: do to whoever they please. I mean, they could, they 400 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 3: could pick somebody out of a group, right and make 401 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 3: them a target, and then they fabricate a case around them, 402 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:49,400 Speaker 3: and that's exactly what they did to us. But from 403 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:52,639 Speaker 3: day one, I requested DNA testing, and back in the 404 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 3: eighties mid eighties, there was no DNA testing, And back 405 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:59,200 Speaker 3: in ninety three, ninety four, ninety five, we had three 406 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,239 Speaker 3: different DNA tis done. One was inclusive to to well, 407 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 3: the ones excluded us, and back in ninety five. I 408 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 3: thought we were going to get cut loose. I thought 409 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 3: that was going to be the end of the gospel. 410 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 3: That wasn't the case. The judge should have been one 411 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 3: of the. 412 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 4: First DNA gulannomies in the country because he was going 413 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:16,919 Speaker 4: in pro se and he had a lawyer who was 414 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 4: helping him out for some of that time, you know, 415 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:23,119 Speaker 4: early on, and he's incredibly smart, and he was researching 416 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 4: and filing his own emotions. He had a DNA test 417 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 4: from sperm from a sixteen year old girl who was 418 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:33,360 Speaker 4: a virgin that didn't come back to him or Dennis 419 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:38,200 Speaker 4: or John Cogit, and the DAS said, eh, doesn't matter. 420 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 4: Could have been a fourth guy, right, fourth guy. There's 421 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 4: a third guy. There's a second guy. 422 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 1: There was one guy. 423 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 4: It was his firm, and it wasn't any of these guys. 424 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 4: And he goes to court and the judges back then 425 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 4: weren't as educated as they are now about DNA and 426 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:54,160 Speaker 4: what it shows, and you know, he had different lawyers 427 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:57,680 Speaker 4: and they said, sorry, I'm giving you a new trial. 428 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 4: And so there he was, you know, in the mid nineties, 429 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 4: starting at square one. 430 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:02,639 Speaker 2: Again. 431 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 1: Let's just reflect on that for a second too, So 432 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:09,120 Speaker 1: you proved with DNA that you were innocent, and they're like, yeah, 433 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 1: that's right, doesn't matter. I think probably everyone at home 434 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 1: is experiencing the same or in your car or wherever 435 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:17,639 Speaker 1: you're listening, the same thing that I'm experiencing, which is 436 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 1: that wait a minute, that sounds like a misprint or 437 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 1: a misstatement. 438 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:21,760 Speaker 2: That can't really be true. 439 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 3: The prosecutor is actually lying in their papers about the 440 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:29,160 Speaker 3: reliability of the tests. They insinuated that the test results 441 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 3: were not reliable, which is ludicrous because there's two independent 442 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:40,399 Speaker 3: tests done by two independent labs, and they identify the 443 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 3: same exact DNA profile. So if one lab made a mistake, 444 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 3: how could the other lab, independent lab make the same 445 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:55,160 Speaker 3: mistake and identify the exact same DNA profile. So when 446 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 3: they argued in air papers that the tests weren't reliable, 447 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 3: I mean, that was totally ludicrous, and the judge adopted 448 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:04,880 Speaker 3: all it is insanity. 449 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 4: And then, if I remember correctly, after they realized they 450 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 4: weren't getting anywhere for a while, the judge was getting 451 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 4: skeptical of the reliability argument. Then they said, well, the 452 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:16,119 Speaker 4: only thing that was tested for this last round was 453 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 4: off of a vaginal slide, which is a glass slide 454 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:23,639 Speaker 4: that the medical examiner or autopsy makes from the cotton 455 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 4: swab that was actually had most of the sperm and 456 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:28,920 Speaker 4: the semen on it, and it was just the one 457 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 4: part of the slide. So maybe these three guys who 458 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:35,399 Speaker 4: we convicted, maybe their DNA was on the rest of 459 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 4: the slide or on the swabs, and we just don't 460 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 4: have enough material. So you had to believe two things. 461 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 4: One that the test was missing all of their DNA, 462 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,199 Speaker 4: but also that they had some crime partner this mystery. 463 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 4: John Doe, who was the fourth guy whose name didn't 464 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:52,680 Speaker 4: come up in the confession, didn't come up from any 465 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 4: of the informants, didn't come up from any of the witnesses, 466 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:57,679 Speaker 4: you know who. Everybody had been covering up for this 467 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 4: last ten years, which was absurd, but the courts bought it, 468 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,640 Speaker 4: and so then they basically gave John a challenge, which 469 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,119 Speaker 4: was prove us wrong, prove to us that your DNA 470 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,119 Speaker 4: is not really there, And then we. 471 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 3: Did that right in two thousand and one, there was 472 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 3: a small portion of sample left and they retested it 473 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:22,200 Speaker 3: using new methodology where they would be able to run 474 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:26,879 Speaker 3: that result through the federal and state databases, you know, 475 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 3: through CODIS. Right, and again when they tested that it 476 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 3: comes back matching the same DNA profile that came back 477 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:35,880 Speaker 3: in the nineties. 478 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:36,439 Speaker 2: Amazing. 479 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,199 Speaker 3: Yeah, And they ran it through CODIS, hoping that they 480 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 3: would get a hit, right, And since they didn't get 481 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:48,400 Speaker 3: a hit, they're still maintaining that it's not reliable. Then 482 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 3: in two thousand and two I met Nina Morrison and 483 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:58,639 Speaker 3: IP took on more involvement in the case, right, and 484 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:01,719 Speaker 3: got us all in de pendant lawyers. Right, they got 485 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:05,359 Speaker 3: lawyers for Dennis, they got lawyers for John And in 486 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:08,920 Speaker 3: early two thousand and three, Nina and a couple of 487 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 3: the lawyers went to inventory evidence that the police had 488 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 3: and lo and behold. 489 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 4: For photos and maps. We were looking for some old 490 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,639 Speaker 4: photos related to another part of our investigation, and they 491 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 4: wouldn't just send us the photos. So we said, fine, 492 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 4: can we come look through the boxes? So we were 493 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:27,159 Speaker 4: out there with an assistant DA who was new to 494 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:29,359 Speaker 4: the office, relatively new, and she said, yeah, let's just 495 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 4: go look through the boxes. Go ahead. 496 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:34,919 Speaker 3: So Nina and the other lawyers they opened up the 497 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 3: boxes and they're going through the boxes and all behold, 498 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:41,119 Speaker 3: they found a plastic envelope with a glass tube in 499 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 3: it and a swab in it, and it has the 500 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 3: case number and Teresa fuss Goo's name on it and 501 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,919 Speaker 3: it's vouched by Volpi. And after they insinuated, all the 502 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 3: mea is that there's no samples left to be tested. 503 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:56,399 Speaker 3: It was right there in the box, you know, in 504 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,639 Speaker 3: the DA's officer or in the police head quotas wherever 505 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 3: they were, and Nina scene is and the DA scene is, 506 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:06,120 Speaker 3: and then now they had to collaborate. Okay, now where 507 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 3: are we going to send this to have it tested? 508 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,359 Speaker 3: And they sent it out to have it tested. And 509 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,680 Speaker 3: this is a sample that was never touched, so it's 510 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 3: in pristine condition and alone. 511 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,879 Speaker 4: If anybody had you know, raped her, that DNA is 512 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 4: going to be on there. So they had said for years, 513 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 4: well the other guys, you know, John and his co defendants, 514 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 4: their DNA was there. We just burned all the samples 515 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,119 Speaker 4: so we can't protest it now. And then suddenly we 516 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,880 Speaker 4: had this big intact swab that everybody said was gone 517 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 4: for fifteen years that was finally available, and not surprising 518 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 4: to any of us, we tested it and guess what, 519 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,719 Speaker 4: it's the same guy whose profile has been coming up 520 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,120 Speaker 4: again and again, but this time because it was such 521 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 4: a big sample, the DA's office finally, you know that, 522 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,159 Speaker 4: plus a whole lot of other evidence we gathered, we 523 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 4: went out and made a presentation to them, a whole 524 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:56,719 Speaker 4: coalition of people that really did take a village. It 525 00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,399 Speaker 4: was my very first innocence project case. I was a 526 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:04,680 Speaker 4: young lawyer, very motivated, shall we say, and still am, 527 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 4: but you know, I was very invested in this one, 528 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 4: and a whole bunch of us enturian ministries, the Unison's project, 529 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 4: to Delmarnard, and then my old law school classmate Terry Maroney, 530 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:15,960 Speaker 4: who was a lawyer at a big firm. We all 531 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 4: did this big presentation with Barry Scheck together and got 532 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:21,160 Speaker 4: them to finally agree. They actually caved in and agreed 533 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 4: we didn't have to go to court. They agreed to 534 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:24,160 Speaker 4: throw out their convictions. 535 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,680 Speaker 1: You had a kind of a bright future at the time. 536 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:37,679 Speaker 2: Right, you had a pregnant girlfriend. Right, you had a 537 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 2: good job. 538 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 1: Right, you had a career that was growing, and all 539 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 1: of a sudden you're accused and ultimately convicted of the 540 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 1: worst crime that anyone could be convicted of. Right, I think, 541 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 1: which is the rape and murder of an underage person, 542 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 1: child and a teenager or whatever. 543 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 2: How did you deal with this? 544 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,479 Speaker 1: And then you had to go through this eighteen years 545 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,719 Speaker 1: in the maximum security I mean, can you kick us 546 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 1: through that? 547 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 3: In the beginning, I turned my life upside down and 548 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 3: turned my family's life upside down. But that being said, 549 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 3: my family always supported me. Right, my original trial lawyer 550 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 3: always supported me, and everybody always believed in my innocence. 551 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 3: And I had the one thing going for me that 552 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:28,200 Speaker 3: I knew that not only was I innocent, that I 553 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 3: was framed because I watched the evidence come out during 554 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:35,720 Speaker 3: the course of the trial. Right, so I knew that 555 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 3: I was framed. Now it was up to me to 556 00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 3: prove all it is. So I ended up in the penitentiary, 557 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,880 Speaker 3: and I started going to the law library, and I 558 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 3: started teaching myself how to use the books. I taught 559 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 3: myself how to become a legal writer. I don't want 560 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 3: to say illegal scholar, but I became a legal writer. 561 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,240 Speaker 3: And I I started writing and writing, and I started 562 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 3: writing lettus to all kinds of organizations or individuals seeking help. 563 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:14,600 Speaker 3: And I wrote Century Ministries in nineteen eighty seven and 564 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 3: started corresponding with them, and then I started corresponding with 565 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 3: the Innocence Project, and you know, there was a lot 566 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 3: of setbacks, you know, like because originally, when we extract 567 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 3: the DNA testing, the dis Returnings Office refused to do it. 568 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 3: This is no way we're not going to do that. 569 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 3: And this was in the late eighties because DNA was 570 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 3: first used in a criminal case. I think it was 571 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 3: nineteen eighty eight or nineteen eighty nine, something like that, 572 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 3: and I think it was an Oldding County case. And 573 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 3: so I wrote my lawyer, I mean, if they're going 574 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 3: to use this to convict somebody, why can't we use 575 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 3: this to exonerate us? Right? And I got letters signed 576 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 3: by John by Dennis agreeing to have this DNA test done. 577 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 3: My lawyer correct, right, because I'm not doing this just 578 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 3: for me. I mean, this is a frame job, it's 579 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:10,160 Speaker 3: not like so we all agree, and my lawyer filed 580 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 3: the motion. The judge denied it, and then my lawyer 581 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:18,040 Speaker 3: went on his own writing campaign to the DA and finally, 582 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 3: on the eve of when New York State legislature was 583 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 3: getting ready to sign the post Conviction Statute for forty 584 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 3: to allow DNA testing, the prosecutors or the DA's office 585 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 3: finally agreed to do the DNA testing, and that's why 586 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 3: the DNA testing occurred in ninety three, ninety four U 587 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 3: five or otherwise, if that legislation wasn't going to be 588 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 3: on the books, they would probably continue to refuse it, 589 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 3: even though you know, people at that point were being 590 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 3: exonerated because the results of the DNA tests. These people 591 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,480 Speaker 3: fought tooth and nail against this DNA tests, and then 592 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,800 Speaker 3: when we finally got the DNA test going, the judge 593 00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 3: finds it unreliable, like you mentioned before. But you know, 594 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 3: I always had this hope, right and then you know, 595 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,800 Speaker 3: things started falling together with more people get involved, and 596 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 3: the more people that got involved were more confident. I 597 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,800 Speaker 3: felt that I was gonna one day be vindicated. 598 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:16,640 Speaker 1: But let me ask you, I mean, I guess what 599 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:20,480 Speaker 1: I'm trying to figure out is it seems like it 600 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 1: would have been. 601 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 2: Really easy for you to either give. 602 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,160 Speaker 1: Up or get consumed by anger, because this was not 603 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 1: a situation where it was a mistake. This was a 604 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 1: situation where you were deliberately prosecuted and persecuted by people 605 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:40,720 Speaker 1: who did you incredible harm and also deny justice to 606 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:44,440 Speaker 1: the family who must have been fucking devastated. I mean, like, 607 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 1: as a father, I can't imagine you know what they 608 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:49,800 Speaker 1: went through, and then there's no justice for them either. 609 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 2: So is there a secret that you could share. 610 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,760 Speaker 1: That allowed you to sort of find this extra gear 611 00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 1: and instead of banging your head against the wall or 612 00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 1: doing whatever you channel This seems. 613 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 3: Like this is this is gonna sound strange, but I 614 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 3: still use this line today. It could be worse. Right, 615 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,959 Speaker 3: And I was facing a level of adversity that the 616 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:18,960 Speaker 3: average person could never understand. Well, I was inside. I 617 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 3: read a lot, but I didn't read you know, novels. 618 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 3: I read a lot of nonfiction. I read a lot 619 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:29,880 Speaker 3: about World War Two. I read a lot about POW's. 620 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:34,240 Speaker 3: So I'm putting in my brain like, okay, me doing 621 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:36,960 Speaker 3: his life sentence for somebody I didn't do. How does 622 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:40,479 Speaker 3: that compare to an eighteen year old kid that is 623 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:43,880 Speaker 3: pushed onto the beach in Normandy and you know, lives 624 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 3: for five minutes and he's gone, right, or a Pow 625 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 3: in the Philippines that is being tortured every day. So 626 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:57,520 Speaker 3: I'm putting my adversity in and kind of perspective of 627 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,600 Speaker 3: you know adversity that other people in worse situations that 628 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 3: I was in. Right, at least I was getting three 629 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,880 Speaker 3: meals a day. I wasn't being physically taught you, nobody 630 00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:10,480 Speaker 3: was pulling my fingernails out. I put it all in 631 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 3: a perspective of you know, a peow in the Philippines 632 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:16,560 Speaker 3: or a pow in Vietnam, and I got it in 633 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 3: my brain. Well, at the end of the day, I 634 00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:20,680 Speaker 3: don't belong here, but it could be worse. 635 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:23,040 Speaker 4: John's too modest to talk about this, but I'm going 636 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:26,200 Speaker 4: to say he also spent a lot of time when 637 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 4: he was in prison trying to make it a less 638 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:32,400 Speaker 4: horrible place for other people, and also helping people on 639 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,560 Speaker 4: the outside. So among the many things he did, like 640 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:36,719 Speaker 4: when I first talked to his prison counselor, she just 641 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:39,959 Speaker 4: blew up my phone with oh my god, John, He's 642 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,040 Speaker 4: just incredible. I want him to go home, but what 643 00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:43,440 Speaker 4: are we going to do without him? He was an 644 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,000 Speaker 4: HIV AIDS counselor for other inmates, either on how to 645 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,160 Speaker 4: avoid contracting the disease or helping him deal with their diagnoses, 646 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 4: even though he was a straight man who was HIV 647 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:54,839 Speaker 4: negative at a time in the eighties and nineties when 648 00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:57,399 Speaker 4: people were scared to talk about AIDS, much less work 649 00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:00,400 Speaker 4: directly with people who were affected. He'd worked with mentally 650 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:02,279 Speaker 4: ill and mad, to the guys that everybody thought was 651 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,160 Speaker 4: crazy and were prized at the prison, and he was 652 00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:07,240 Speaker 4: just trying to help them get the medication they needed 653 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,120 Speaker 4: and the support they needed. And then people on the outside, 654 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:13,320 Speaker 4: I know people who John was like their phone buddy, 655 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 4: you know, family friends and young nieces and nephews who 656 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:18,440 Speaker 4: he would just call once a week and like talk 657 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 4: them through their problems in school, their issues with their families. 658 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:23,560 Speaker 4: You know, all the while he's facing the most unimaginable 659 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,920 Speaker 4: thing any of us think we could go through, and 660 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:28,800 Speaker 4: that's just a testament to who he is and how. 661 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:29,279 Speaker 3: Strong he is. 662 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,240 Speaker 1: I'm glad you said that, because that is an awesome 663 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,160 Speaker 1: thing to hear from me. I'm sure many other people 664 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:38,160 Speaker 1: who are going through whatever they're going through to hear 665 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:41,279 Speaker 1: your perspective on that. And here then, Nina, you know, 666 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:43,920 Speaker 1: adding in what you were too modest or humble to 667 00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 1: talk about, it's incredible. And I got to tell you, John, 668 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 1: and you know it's true too, that I think I 669 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,919 Speaker 1: can speak for Nina and almost any of the other 670 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:54,360 Speaker 1: six hundred of us who are here at the Innocence 671 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:59,360 Speaker 1: Network conference who are part of the network, right the 672 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,319 Speaker 1: activist lawyers, the social workers, the people who are just 673 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:05,320 Speaker 1: obsessed with this stuff, like me. And the simple reason 674 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:07,520 Speaker 1: why is because of people like you. When someone's made 675 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:10,319 Speaker 1: aware of the quality of person that you are, and 676 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,799 Speaker 1: that I would say the overwhelming majority of the people, 677 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,719 Speaker 1: the men and women who've been exonerated, what they're made 678 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:20,239 Speaker 1: out of, it's like it only inspires us to want 679 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,960 Speaker 1: to do more. And that's why for anyone who's ever 680 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:27,000 Speaker 1: asked me, you know why you keep doing this, it's 681 00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:28,160 Speaker 1: because of people like you. 682 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:31,040 Speaker 2: So you know, what can I say? You have all 683 00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:31,720 Speaker 2: my respect? 684 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:35,480 Speaker 3: Well, I look at it from the other perspective because 685 00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:40,799 Speaker 3: and I appreciate where you're coming from. But to me, 686 00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:45,840 Speaker 3: people in en isshoes, they're my hero. People in your shoes, 687 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:49,680 Speaker 3: what you do for the movement, you're my hero. And 688 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:55,160 Speaker 3: everybody who supports this movement, they're my hero. Right Because 689 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,879 Speaker 3: if it wasn't for people like Nina and people like you, right, 690 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:01,839 Speaker 3: I probably still being at sixty eight. 691 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:02,399 Speaker 2: John. 692 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:04,120 Speaker 1: I just want to ask you one more question, though, 693 00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:05,440 Speaker 1: and then I am going to get to the closing. 694 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:12,120 Speaker 1: So I interviewed Gloria Kelly on on the podcast and 695 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:16,960 Speaker 1: she said she's an amazing, amazing woman, very powerful presence, 696 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:21,360 Speaker 1: and wrongfully convicted started seventeen and a half years. I 697 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:23,920 Speaker 1: encourage people to listen to her episode of the podcast. 698 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:27,359 Speaker 1: But she said something that I think is important to hear, 699 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:28,920 Speaker 1: and I want to get your perspective on that. She 700 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,759 Speaker 1: said to anyone listening, if you don't think this can 701 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:34,520 Speaker 1: happen to you, it can happen to you. 702 00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:37,360 Speaker 2: Would you agree with that most definitely? 703 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:40,719 Speaker 3: And you could be walking down the street one day, 704 00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:45,040 Speaker 3: just mining your business and get surrounded by cops and 705 00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:48,560 Speaker 3: before you know it, you're thrown into the system and 706 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:51,640 Speaker 3: you don't have a clue to what's going on until 707 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:53,239 Speaker 3: all of a sudden you're brought in front of a 708 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:59,360 Speaker 3: judge and you're being charged with whatever, and you're totally 709 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:02,279 Speaker 3: clueless as to what happened. And a lot of these 710 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:06,760 Speaker 3: wrongful conviction cases, that's exactly what occurred. I mean, because 711 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,480 Speaker 3: if so many things that this can't happen to them, 712 00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:16,120 Speaker 3: that's totally wrong, because being wilfully convicted can happen to anybody, anybody, 713 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:21,760 Speaker 3: and it doesn't have anything to do with race, gender, anything. 714 00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:25,040 Speaker 3: And I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy to 715 00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:27,520 Speaker 3: have to go through something like this, because no matter 716 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:31,000 Speaker 3: what you do, after you're exonerated, you carry it for 717 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:34,080 Speaker 3: the rest of your life. I mean, it doesn't go away. 718 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:37,080 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, you can't get back those years and all 719 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:40,440 Speaker 1: the things that you missed, the birthdays, the family stuff, 720 00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:41,160 Speaker 1: just everything. 721 00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,759 Speaker 2: I mean, nobody can give you those back. If we could, 722 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:44,120 Speaker 2: we would. 723 00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:48,439 Speaker 1: But that being said, it's amazing to see you making 724 00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:51,359 Speaker 1: the most out of it. And you're in Florida. You're 725 00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:55,040 Speaker 1: enjoying some sun and some palm trees or whatever it 726 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:58,839 Speaker 1: is down there, and I'm really glad that things are 727 00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:02,920 Speaker 1: going your way. And now comes my favorite part of 728 00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:06,200 Speaker 1: the show, which is the part of the show where 729 00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:09,600 Speaker 1: I first of all, thank both of you, Nina Morrison 730 00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:14,960 Speaker 1: and John Restivo for joining me sharing your thoughts on 731 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:16,120 Speaker 1: Wontful Conviction. 732 00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:17,640 Speaker 2: So thank you both for being here. 733 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:22,640 Speaker 1: And now I get to sit back and listen and 734 00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:27,480 Speaker 1: just leave the microphones on for final thoughts. And I'm 735 00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:30,520 Speaker 1: going to let Nina go first because it would be 736 00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:34,520 Speaker 1: appropriate for you to close the show so you're batting 737 00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:35,600 Speaker 1: clean up, so to speak. 738 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:38,479 Speaker 2: So anyway, So, Nina, well, all I. 739 00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:40,480 Speaker 4: Want to say is, you know, your listeners have gotten 740 00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:43,080 Speaker 4: a favor for who John is and what he's gone through. 741 00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:46,040 Speaker 4: But one of the things that's really special about John 742 00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:50,120 Speaker 4: is what he's done after he's been out and how 743 00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:52,879 Speaker 4: much he's done. He's done a lot to help get 744 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:55,480 Speaker 4: people registered to vote in Florida, to feed the homeless, 745 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,440 Speaker 4: to make his community better. And his personal journey is 746 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:02,120 Speaker 4: told in this beautiful, Beautiful future story in the New 747 00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:05,200 Speaker 4: Yorker magazine by a writer named Ariel Levy, And if 748 00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:08,239 Speaker 4: people google John's name and the title, I think is 749 00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:11,319 Speaker 4: the Price of a life, And it's all about the 750 00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:13,440 Speaker 4: deep pain and suffering that he went through. If your 751 00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:17,439 Speaker 4: listeners are interested in the human toll that wrongful convictions take. 752 00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:21,959 Speaker 4: Ariel told his story in a very revealing and intimate way, 753 00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:24,160 Speaker 4: and I hope folks will check it out. 754 00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:24,920 Speaker 2: Joh It. 755 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:27,560 Speaker 3: I just take it one day at a time. I 756 00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:30,800 Speaker 3: wake up in the morning and I just say to myself, 757 00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:34,360 Speaker 3: no day in paradise. I'm just glad to be free. 758 00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:38,560 Speaker 3: And if I can do something to help my community, 759 00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:41,839 Speaker 3: or if I feel or if I see something that 760 00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:46,480 Speaker 3: needs to be done, I try to help. And I 761 00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:51,360 Speaker 3: was involved in two thousand and eight in this huge 762 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:56,440 Speaker 3: voter registration thing that we had going in Florida, and 763 00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:01,759 Speaker 3: we just got passed. We got an amendment past where 764 00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:06,399 Speaker 3: felons are going to be allowed to vote. So now 765 00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:09,800 Speaker 3: we're going to have to start getting felons registered to 766 00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:15,000 Speaker 3: vote for our upcoming election. And when I'm asked, I 767 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:17,680 Speaker 3: have a group of friends, and when I'm asked to help, 768 00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:21,200 Speaker 3: I'm more than happy to help. And I want to 769 00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:23,640 Speaker 3: thank you for having us here. 770 00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:27,120 Speaker 1: All I can say is thank you both again, and 771 00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:29,960 Speaker 1: thank you all for listening. And I'll see you next 772 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:39,719 Speaker 1: week on Wraeful Conviction. Don't forget to give us a 773 00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:43,000 Speaker 1: fantastic review wherever you get your podcasts. 774 00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:43,320 Speaker 2: It really helps. 775 00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:46,600 Speaker 1: And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project and 776 00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:49,359 Speaker 1: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very 777 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:53,360 Speaker 1: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go 778 00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:55,880 Speaker 1: to Innocence Project dot or org to learn how to 779 00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:59,279 Speaker 1: donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, 780 00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:02,279 Speaker 1: Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show 781 00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:05,320 Speaker 1: is by three Time Oscar nominated composer Jay Ralph. 782 00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:06,120 Speaker 2: Be sure to. 783 00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:09,680 Speaker 1: Follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook 784 00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:13,759 Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flahm is 785 00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:17,239 Speaker 1: a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with 786 00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:26,720 Speaker 1: Signal Company Number one