WEBVTT - Jersey City's Mayor on How the City Built So Much Housing 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:15.480 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. 0:00:18.480 --> 0:00:22.160 Hello and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. 0:00:22.239 --> 0:00:24.560 I'm Jill Whysenthal and I'm Tracy Alloway. 0:00:24.760 --> 0:00:28.040 Been covering little local politics these days. Tracey, it's not 0:00:28.080 --> 0:00:30.440 our normal beat, but sometimes there's a little intersection. 0:00:30.520 --> 0:00:33.240 We're going local, not macro micro. 0:00:33.200 --> 0:00:36.280 We're going micro. So it's interesting because we did a 0:00:36.320 --> 0:00:39.000 recent episode. Listeners may remember it was one of the 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:41.519 candidates for the mayorship here in New York City's are 0:00:41.600 --> 0:00:44.640 on Mom Donnie and he sort of talked about his 0:00:44.800 --> 0:00:48.360 vision for affordability. Actually backing up for a second, it 0:00:48.479 --> 0:00:53.400 feels like housing affordability is suddenly swamping everything is the 0:00:53.600 --> 0:00:57.279 issue almost regardless of your perspective, that is like on 0:00:57.400 --> 0:00:59.480 top of many people's minds these days. 0:00:59.520 --> 0:01:02.080 Well also, so we've talked about this before, but also 0:01:02.160 --> 0:01:05.280 seems like a bipartisan issue, right and like you don't 0:01:05.280 --> 0:01:09.080 get a lot of bipartisan things nowadays. I'll just put 0:01:09.080 --> 0:01:09.480 it that way. 0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:11.440 No, but it's interesting, like you know, at one point 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:15.399 there is like healthcare and sometimes climate other time. Right now, 0:01:15.440 --> 0:01:18.040 it just feels like there is such a so much 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:21.280 anxiety about housing affordability and all this stuff, and it 0:01:21.280 --> 0:01:24.399 feels like it's a nationwide thing. Within the Democratic Party, 0:01:24.440 --> 0:01:26.680 there are different wings of how people talk about it, 0:01:26.720 --> 0:01:29.840 so we obviously talked to the socialist candidate for mayor. 0:01:30.280 --> 0:01:32.360 There's also what people would call like this sort of 0:01:32.440 --> 0:01:35.520 like more liberal abundance view that you know, the answer 0:01:35.640 --> 0:01:38.279 is just we just need more and use whatever levers 0:01:38.319 --> 0:01:40.240 to pull to like get more in some way. So, 0:01:40.400 --> 0:01:43.480 you know, even within one party though, although everyone sort 0:01:43.480 --> 0:01:46.360 of agrees on rent and affordability, not a lot of 0:01:46.400 --> 0:01:48.120 consensus on the path there. 0:01:48.280 --> 0:01:52.000 Yeah, so the overall goal is very clear, but I 0:01:52.040 --> 0:01:54.200 guess like the levers that you're going to pull to 0:01:54.240 --> 0:01:56.720 get there are very complicated, And I have to say 0:01:56.760 --> 0:01:59.160 that's one thing that I kind of struggle with in 0:01:59.200 --> 0:02:01.840 those topics. It seems like there are so many different 0:02:01.960 --> 0:02:04.840 things that you could do, and all of them seem 0:02:04.960 --> 0:02:10.480 very like bureaucratic, very technical tax abatements, all these incentives 0:02:10.600 --> 0:02:13.840 rent control, and it's interesting to me how you choose 0:02:13.919 --> 0:02:16.799 between them about what's going to be most effective. 0:02:16.880 --> 0:02:18.520 Can I just say, by the way, you know, I 0:02:18.520 --> 0:02:20.679 think a lot of these debates are very part of 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:22.840 the reason they exist because the media is very heavily 0:02:22.919 --> 0:02:25.320 represented in New York and San Francisco. I mean, I 0:02:25.320 --> 0:02:28.160 don't think that there's a no affordability crisis in like Devenport, 0:02:28.200 --> 0:02:30.760 Iowa to the same degree, and I think that's important 0:02:30.800 --> 0:02:34.079 to acknowledge. I also think like New York and you know, 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:36.080 San francisc are some of the best places in the world, 0:02:36.200 --> 0:02:37.880 so I get why people pay a lot of money 0:02:37.880 --> 0:02:40.160 for them. Anyway, it turns out one of the best 0:02:40.160 --> 0:02:43.240 cities over the last several years in the entire country 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:46.920 for housing production is our neighbor, Jersey City, right across 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:49.079 the water. I really like Jersey City. I've spent a 0:02:49.120 --> 0:02:51.880 little bit of time there, and their mayor, Stephen Phillip, 0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:55.119 is running for governor in the Democratic primary right now, 0:02:55.200 --> 0:02:57.760 so we have the perfect guest to talk about Jersey 0:02:57.760 --> 0:02:58.720 City housing production. 0:02:59.040 --> 0:02:59.720 Stephen Phllip. 0:02:59.760 --> 0:03:01.760 Thank you, Thank you so much for coming on odd Laws. 0:03:01.840 --> 0:03:03.480 Thanks for having me. I appreciate being here. 0:03:03.639 --> 0:03:05.480 For those people who don't know, you've been in the 0:03:05.520 --> 0:03:07.400 mayor of Jersey City for how long I think I 0:03:07.480 --> 0:03:09.359 saw it was like in the last ten years, housing 0:03:09.400 --> 0:03:11.760 stock has increased like twenty five percent something like that. 0:03:11.840 --> 0:03:14.320 Yeah, I mean, we used to be maybe two percent 0:03:14.440 --> 0:03:17.760 of the state's building permits. We're upwards of ten percent now. 0:03:17.919 --> 0:03:20.079 I mean, we've been the backbone economically the state of 0:03:20.120 --> 0:03:21.960 New Jersey. I've been the mayor there for twelve years. 0:03:22.360 --> 0:03:25.320 I've been unapologetically very very pro growth. You could see 0:03:25.320 --> 0:03:28.160 the skyline change across the river. So it's been a 0:03:28.160 --> 0:03:30.919 good story and we're growing and I'm very proud of 0:03:30.960 --> 0:03:32.160 the changes that have happened. 0:03:32.720 --> 0:03:36.360 What's the biggest choke point or hurdle when it comes 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:39.160 to building more affordable housing? Because everyone seems to have 0:03:39.520 --> 0:03:41.680 a different answer to this and different things that they 0:03:41.680 --> 0:03:44.600 would put emphasis on. But in your view, what's number one? 0:03:44.920 --> 0:03:46.200 What do other people say? Out of curiosity? 0:03:46.320 --> 0:03:50.000 The people say like zoning and things like that, incentivizing 0:03:50.120 --> 0:03:53.920 the developers to build something other than luxury high rises, 0:03:54.000 --> 0:03:54.680 that sort of thing. 0:03:55.240 --> 0:03:56.400 I'd point to a couple of things. 0:03:56.440 --> 0:03:58.560 I mean, in New Jersey, we have definitely have an 0:03:58.600 --> 0:04:02.880 incentive program that is complicated. We have obviously zoning with 0:04:03.000 --> 0:04:05.160 home rules, so you have a lot of municipalities five 0:04:05.240 --> 0:04:08.880 hundred and sixty four municipalities, which is problematic and home rule, 0:04:08.960 --> 0:04:10.640 So how do you overcome that, which I think we 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:14.040 have some solutions for and I think that generally speaking, 0:04:14.240 --> 0:04:18.039 across the country you have kind of the Nimby sentiment 0:04:18.240 --> 0:04:21.039 monopolizing the conversation. And how do you wrestle that away 0:04:21.080 --> 0:04:24.480 from them is different in each city or state, But 0:04:24.920 --> 0:04:26.640 in New Jersey, I think we've done a pretty good 0:04:26.720 --> 0:04:30.240 job of kind of creating a dynamic where the people 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:31.400 that are pro growth. 0:04:31.120 --> 0:04:32.320 Can also have a voice there. 0:04:32.800 --> 0:04:37.600 You've been pretty unapologetic in your view that market rate 0:04:37.839 --> 0:04:43.240 housing benefits everyone, that there's supply and demand, you expand supply, 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:47.440 it filters down, et cetera. You talk about quote affordable 0:04:47.480 --> 0:04:52.719 housing unquote, but give us your general philosophy of housing 0:04:52.920 --> 0:04:55.320 and make it more affordable and why you believe that 0:04:55.760 --> 0:04:59.640 a lot of the solution is essentially liberalizing and supply 0:04:59.680 --> 0:04:59.960 and demand. 0:05:00.279 --> 0:05:02.840 Yeah, I think people build what they want with there. Yes, 0:05:03.080 --> 0:05:06.160 I think that when you put more restrictions around housing 0:05:06.200 --> 0:05:09.480 growth so you know, rent control sounds like a good buzzwords, 0:05:09.520 --> 0:05:12.440 But when you're too restrictive around that stuff, you're going 0:05:12.520 --> 0:05:16.440 to create a situation where you're not seeing supply being increased. 0:05:16.640 --> 0:05:19.280 We've seen in Jersey City pressure when New York City 0:05:19.279 --> 0:05:21.640 isn't growing on our housing prices, and when we've grown 0:05:21.720 --> 0:05:25.400 a lot, you've seen the demand still high, but the 0:05:25.400 --> 0:05:27.000 rent increase is subside. 0:05:27.040 --> 0:05:27.880 So it leads you to the. 0:05:27.839 --> 0:05:32.200 Conclusion that the market rate component of housing is as 0:05:32.240 --> 0:05:36.719 important to the conversation as the affordable conversation. And you know, look, 0:05:36.760 --> 0:05:38.840 a lot of people push back for a variety of reasons. 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:41.120 Sometimes it's rooted in racism. I mean, people have a 0:05:41.120 --> 0:05:43.800 different reaction if you use the word affordable housing versus 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:46.679 housing that's affordable. They have a different kind of thought 0:05:46.720 --> 0:05:49.600 process around that. But the reality of the situation is 0:05:50.120 --> 0:05:53.960 that market rate housing helps you build more affordable housing 0:05:54.040 --> 0:05:57.240 or housing that's affordable, and they have to work together 0:05:57.440 --> 0:05:59.000 to be successful. And that's how we've approached it in 0:05:59.120 --> 0:06:01.000 Jersey City and it's really been successful. 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:04.120 So one of the criticisms of market rate is that 0:06:04.200 --> 0:06:07.719 you end up with those developers just building the luxury 0:06:07.760 --> 0:06:10.839 apartments because they can ring more money out of those. 0:06:11.320 --> 0:06:14.880 How do you address I guess the balance between luxury 0:06:14.920 --> 0:06:17.880 housing versus I don't know, housing for the middle class 0:06:18.000 --> 0:06:20.320 or housing that's further down the spectrum. 0:06:20.400 --> 0:06:22.800 Yeah, so in Jersey City, we do have kind of 0:06:22.800 --> 0:06:26.240 set asides or inclusionary zoning ordinances and those are important. 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:28.040 We've gone back and forth with the. 0:06:27.960 --> 0:06:31.440 Advocacy groups on what's actually achievable, and we've actually come 0:06:31.480 --> 0:06:34.559 to a place that's pretty successful. And we generally target 0:06:34.560 --> 0:06:38.240 about twenty percent of a housing development to be a 0:06:38.360 --> 0:06:42.560 blended affordable component. So that could be workforce housing, that 0:06:42.600 --> 0:06:45.720 could be low income housing, which is obviously more stressful 0:06:45.800 --> 0:06:47.719 on the overall project. So you got to factor some 0:06:47.760 --> 0:06:50.320 of that stuff in. But we do have, you know, 0:06:50.400 --> 0:06:54.560 a specific minimum requirement when they do get a specific 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:56.920 incentive like a tax abatement from the city. 0:06:57.040 --> 0:06:58.080 Well specific lever. 0:06:58.240 --> 0:07:01.000 So, Okay, you've been the main of Jersey City for 0:07:01.040 --> 0:07:05.000 twelve years. Is objectively true that the skyline has changed 0:07:05.000 --> 0:07:07.360 a lot, Is objectively true that the housing stock has grown. 0:07:07.560 --> 0:07:10.240 I'm sure it's benefited just from the fact that, you know, 0:07:10.280 --> 0:07:12.760 Manhattan and New York City has been fairly dismal about 0:07:12.800 --> 0:07:16.920 expanding housing supply, and so people look elsewhere. But versus 0:07:17.160 --> 0:07:19.880 before you came into office, Now, what are the specific 0:07:19.960 --> 0:07:22.280 levers that you've pulled to expand production and how can 0:07:22.320 --> 0:07:24.680 you like attribute you know, when you do an attribution 0:07:24.840 --> 0:07:27.040 of the housing stock, what can you say to what 0:07:27.040 --> 0:07:27.600 you've done. 0:07:27.720 --> 0:07:27.840 So. 0:07:28.120 --> 0:07:31.520 When I came into office, the tax abatement or incentive 0:07:31.560 --> 0:07:36.280 program was very political in nature, and it seemed to 0:07:36.320 --> 0:07:40.520 be by right for the developers that were pursuing it. 0:07:40.920 --> 0:07:43.200 And there were two problems with that. The politics of 0:07:43.280 --> 0:07:46.920 it created kind of uncertainty and apprehension about people investing 0:07:46.920 --> 0:07:48.840 in a market if they weren't familiar with the politics 0:07:48.880 --> 0:07:52.840 about it. And the uncertainty of how the process worked 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:55.600 was problematic as well. So we came in and we 0:07:55.760 --> 0:07:58.440 changed the policy entirely, and people said it we wouldn't 0:07:58.440 --> 0:07:59.840 see the mount of growth. But I viewed it at 0:07:59.880 --> 0:08:02.640 the time that it was such a given that you 0:08:02.640 --> 0:08:06.120 would get these tax abatements that it didn't necessarily incentivize 0:08:06.120 --> 0:08:08.920 more growth. It was already factored into the seller's price 0:08:08.960 --> 0:08:11.120 and the buyer's price and the private transaction. So we 0:08:11.160 --> 0:08:13.720 had to recalibrate that market a little bit. And so 0:08:13.800 --> 0:08:17.520 what I did was we changed the tax abatement process 0:08:17.600 --> 0:08:20.840 where we mapped it to census. Tracts based on poor 0:08:20.920 --> 0:08:24.520 census were automatically entitled to a steeper incentive. And what 0:08:24.600 --> 0:08:27.960 you've gradually saw was people moving away from the waterfront 0:08:28.000 --> 0:08:30.760 and investing money because it seemed more certain the process, 0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:34.000 and it seemed to have a clear advantage if you 0:08:34.040 --> 0:08:35.880 were moving to certain areas. And we mapped it to 0:08:35.880 --> 0:08:37.840 the census track, which seemed like a reasonable way to 0:08:37.840 --> 0:08:40.720 map it towards income where you're trying to instigate development, 0:08:41.120 --> 0:08:46.079 and so that worked, and I think that that clarity 0:08:46.520 --> 0:08:51.480 really helped people invest and attracted new developers to the area. 0:08:51.760 --> 0:08:53.960 So we were no longer relying on the same small 0:08:54.040 --> 0:08:56.959 pool of developers. And I think the certainty was very 0:08:57.040 --> 0:08:58.880 good because you know, New Jersey has a history of 0:08:58.920 --> 0:09:02.960 political corruption, and feeling that there was some process around 0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:06.000 this that it wasn't necessarily predicated on what lawyer or 0:09:06.080 --> 0:09:09.400 architect you hire created a better climate for business. 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:12.960 So you mentioned widening the pool of developers, and this 0:09:13.080 --> 0:09:15.200 is something that Joe and I are really interested in. 0:09:15.440 --> 0:09:19.440 We went down to North Carolina and learned that towns 0:09:19.480 --> 0:09:22.800 and cities really have to make pitches to developers to 0:09:22.840 --> 0:09:26.480 get them to come in. What's the process of, I guess, 0:09:26.600 --> 0:09:29.640 working with a developer talking to them actually like, what 0:09:29.679 --> 0:09:31.800 are the things that they are looking for specifically? 0:09:31.920 --> 0:09:35.320 Well, look, I think that they are interested in an 0:09:35.360 --> 0:09:40.280 administration that seems less political in nature and more focused 0:09:40.440 --> 0:09:43.680 or aligned in a pro growth mentality that recognizes that 0:09:43.760 --> 0:09:46.480 they are in the business of providing housing and there's 0:09:46.559 --> 0:09:50.960 mutually beneficial outcomes if we work together. When I became 0:09:51.120 --> 0:09:52.640 the mayor of Jersey City, one of the things that 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:55.960 I did with the existing developer pool was I recognized 0:09:55.960 --> 0:09:58.360 the fact that we needed to market the city better 0:09:58.840 --> 0:10:01.320 to the surrounding areas. I knew that, you know, not 0:10:01.320 --> 0:10:05.520 necessarily Soho or Tribeco was in a comparison to Jersey City. 0:10:05.559 --> 0:10:08.080 Somebody wasn't making the choice should I live in Tribeca 0:10:08.160 --> 0:10:10.640 or Jersey City, but certainly with Brooklyn and Queens and 0:10:10.679 --> 0:10:13.240 the outer boroughs. So we got most of the larger 0:10:13.280 --> 0:10:16.199 developers at that point together, and what I said to 0:10:16.240 --> 0:10:18.800 them was that we would do a marketing campaign where 0:10:18.840 --> 0:10:22.000 the city's Economic Development Corporation would match the private dollars 0:10:22.040 --> 0:10:24.920 one for one, and it would be targeted in these 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:28.200 areas that we think that we can attract new residents 0:10:28.200 --> 0:10:31.079 and new developers. And I was very deliberate that it 0:10:31.120 --> 0:10:33.000 would not be political in nature, like I would not 0:10:33.080 --> 0:10:35.120 appear in this, My voice would not be a part 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:37.560 of it. It was going to be focused on branding 0:10:37.559 --> 0:10:40.880 the city in a different way that ultimately led to 0:10:41.240 --> 0:10:44.920 more interests, more demands, more developers, and I think that 0:10:44.920 --> 0:10:46.920 that was a very very helpful step that we did 0:10:46.920 --> 0:10:49.280 out of the gate. The politics is always problematic and 0:10:49.280 --> 0:10:50.600 people are apprehensive about that. 0:10:50.760 --> 0:10:53.560 Wait, what do you mean by political exactly? 0:10:53.760 --> 0:10:56.240 Well, the political is in most places, at least in 0:10:56.280 --> 0:10:58.000 New Jersey, it's been a history of who you know 0:10:58.160 --> 0:11:03.000 and a very small cadre of relationships that have allowed 0:11:03.040 --> 0:11:06.640 you entree into the process. And in a place like 0:11:06.720 --> 0:11:10.120 New Jersey where a lot of the rules are codified 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:14.000 in a very very loose way, you feel obligated that 0:11:14.040 --> 0:11:15.880 you got to have a real certain type of relationship. 0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:19.000 And the more you can remove that towards the business climate, 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:20.760 the more likely people are to invest in them. And 0:11:20.800 --> 0:11:22.240 I feel like that's been the kind of a big 0:11:22.360 --> 0:11:24.520 change in Jersey City overall. 0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:27.000 This is super interesting. I don't think this dimension of 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:30.560 housing unaffordability or the challenges to production has come up. 0:11:30.840 --> 0:11:33.360 But when you look at still today Jersey overall, you're 0:11:33.400 --> 0:11:36.599 running for governor, do you still see, like outside of 0:11:36.720 --> 0:11:41.600 Jersey City a general tendency towards it's going to be 0:11:41.640 --> 0:11:45.040 difficult to get approvals and so forth, if you aren't 0:11:45.080 --> 0:11:47.439 with the right architect, if you aren't with the right paper, 0:11:47.480 --> 0:11:49.600 and so forth. Is that still an endemic problem in 0:11:49.679 --> 0:11:52.120 New Jersey at constrainings and the supply of house. 0:11:52.120 --> 0:11:55.280 I think it's a cultural issue in New Jersey. I mean, 0:11:55.360 --> 0:11:57.760 we had a senator that is about to go to 0:11:57.880 --> 0:12:00.640 jail for gold bars. I mean that's a example of 0:12:00.640 --> 0:12:04.319 the political culture of how people perceive New Jersey. I 0:12:04.360 --> 0:12:08.840 think that any reasonable person would estimate that you're in 0:12:09.040 --> 0:12:12.800 the two hundred thousand unit shortage range for the state 0:12:12.840 --> 0:12:14.640 of New Jersey, now maybe given a little and the 0:12:14.720 --> 0:12:18.280 production of affordable units is roughly only like three thousand 0:12:18.280 --> 0:12:21.520 a year, so you're looking at close to seventy years 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:25.720 to cure the backlog that you have today. It's quite significant, 0:12:26.280 --> 0:12:29.480 and there is a sentiment that, you know, municipality by 0:12:29.559 --> 0:12:33.400 municipality has this disproportionate amount of control over the outcomes 0:12:33.480 --> 0:12:37.080 of housing production. And part of the job as governor 0:12:37.280 --> 0:12:40.000 will be to kind of change that narrative. So the 0:12:40.120 --> 0:12:43.760 nimbi's not my backyard, are the not monopolizing the conversation? 0:12:44.120 --> 0:12:45.440 And there's a lot of ways that I think a 0:12:45.480 --> 0:12:46.320 governor can do that. 0:12:46.440 --> 0:12:48.840 Well, let's talk about that. How do you deal with 0:12:48.880 --> 0:12:50.200 the nimbi's. 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:52.640 And the localities fight it because there must be tension 0:12:52.679 --> 0:12:53.439 between state versu. 0:12:53.440 --> 0:12:55.120 Local Yeah, I think there's a couple of things you 0:12:55.160 --> 0:12:58.760 could do. So New Jersey has a fair share housing 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:02.880 requirement which has been litigated for thirty forty years, where 0:13:02.920 --> 0:13:05.400 every municipality is going to have some sort of obligation 0:13:05.440 --> 0:13:08.600 on housing, and a lot of the municipalities push back. 0:13:08.679 --> 0:13:11.160 If it's a suburban municipality, they say, well, you're obligating 0:13:11.240 --> 0:13:13.760 us to this two hundred affordable units and they come 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:16.840 under an eighty twenty rule, So the two hundred units 0:13:16.880 --> 0:13:20.280 equates to roughly one thousand units overall, which is kind 0:13:20.280 --> 0:13:23.240 of The mayors would say its taxing on their infrastructure, 0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:25.920 which is true. So the nimbi's then co opt the 0:13:25.920 --> 0:13:29.600 conversation and drag these out in court for some period 0:13:29.640 --> 0:13:30.040 of time. 0:13:30.600 --> 0:13:31.320 So trentd. 0:13:31.520 --> 0:13:33.720 A I think, can do a better job of creating 0:13:33.760 --> 0:13:36.640 transparency around your municipality where it is in the process 0:13:37.040 --> 0:13:39.679 today that doesn't exist. So for example, if Westfield to 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:43.240 use that as an example of municipality is cooperating and 0:13:43.280 --> 0:13:46.520 doing a good job. There's no transparency to that. So 0:13:46.800 --> 0:13:51.120 the nimbi's generally control the conversation at the planning boards 0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:53.840 because of the fact that there's a lack of information. 0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:55.920 So I think TREND being helpful in that is part 0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:59.200 of it. Number two is that if you have an 0:13:59.240 --> 0:14:02.560 objective to new housing, which New Jersey does, and when 0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:05.360 a mayor or council people say that you're going to 0:14:05.440 --> 0:14:09.559 make us build these thousand units but added children in 0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:13.120 the schools, added needed infrastructure, I do think TREND needs 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:17.239 to tie dollars in resources to those municipalities that are cooperating. 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:19.520 You do need a carrot and stick approach, otherwise you're 0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:21.800 never going to get mayors to actually move in a 0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:24.680 place that has home rule like New Jersey. 0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:43.000 Okay, so speaking of municipalities and infrastructure, Yeah, one of 0:14:43.000 --> 0:14:47.000 your proposals is consolidating some of those municipalities so that 0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:52.080 you don't have a doubling or I guess triplicating quadruplicating 0:14:52.200 --> 0:14:55.040 is that a thing of services in order to cut costs? 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:58.360 And I get that cutting government services and costs is 0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:02.600 obviously very hot right now, But what particular benchmarks or 0:15:02.640 --> 0:15:05.160 targets are you looking at here, and how do you 0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:08.880 ensure I guess, quality of service as you consolidate. 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:11.760 Yeah, so I think the way that we start this 0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:16.360 is more focused on shared services than absolute consolidation. And 0:15:16.680 --> 0:15:19.120 from a mayoral standpoint, knowing that again, New Jersey has 0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:21.840 five hundred and sixty four municipalities, a lot of municipalities 0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:25.360 for a very very small area, all with home rule, 0:15:25.440 --> 0:15:29.760 and all have departments that are not necessarily important by 0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:33.040 municipality for municipality. Just to put in perspective, seventy five 0:15:33.080 --> 0:15:35.520 percent of those five hundred and sixty four municipalities have 0:15:35.600 --> 0:15:38.200 less than twenty thousand people. Fifty percent of them have 0:15:38.280 --> 0:15:41.000 less than ten thousand people. So a lot of very 0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:45.080 small municipalities that all have offices like health departments which 0:15:45.080 --> 0:15:47.440 should probably be at the county, animal control should be 0:15:47.480 --> 0:15:50.240 at the county, things like that. And so I think 0:15:50.280 --> 0:15:53.800 that we've outlined the process to create leverage over the 0:15:53.880 --> 0:15:59.080 municipalities via referendum and to force kind of shared service 0:15:59.200 --> 0:16:01.840 once try has leverage, and I think that's the way 0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:04.040 you got to get there, because nobody's going to voluntarily 0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:06.800 give up parts of their government unless you have trend 0:16:06.840 --> 0:16:07.720 creating leverage on. 0:16:07.680 --> 0:16:10.120 That why hasn't this been done before? Because when I 0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:12.720 think about animal control, for instance, it does seem kind 0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:17.000 of crazy that you have hundreds, dozens of municipalities that 0:16:17.040 --> 0:16:20.040 are all running their own animal control services. But like 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:23.080 I imagine, there must be a challenge in doing some 0:16:23.160 --> 0:16:23.360 of this. 0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:26.520 I think that for the most part, mayors and council 0:16:26.560 --> 0:16:30.520 people are reluctant to give up departments or relationships. Often 0:16:30.560 --> 0:16:33.640 the people that work in these small municipalities or large municipalities, 0:16:33.720 --> 0:16:36.160 or personal relationships. You may know the person's family, they've 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:38.560 been there for a long time, and so just the 0:16:38.600 --> 0:16:41.720 bureaucracy and stagnation is what ends up getting you into 0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:46.560 this place of not wanting to make any change. People 0:16:46.600 --> 0:16:48.880 have talked about it for twenty years about some sort 0:16:48.920 --> 0:16:51.960 of consolidation. The difference in how we're approaching it is 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:56.240 that we are using kind of the referendum process around 0:16:56.320 --> 0:17:00.320 bonding for municipalities to create leverage over the municipality is 0:17:00.560 --> 0:17:02.960 to force it. Apps In forcing it, you're never going 0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:05.159 to get it to happen. That's the truth, and so 0:17:05.280 --> 0:17:06.760 it's a little bit of a different approach. I could 0:17:06.760 --> 0:17:08.800 tell you that the League of Municipalities, which is the 0:17:08.880 --> 0:17:12.560 advocacy group for all five hundred and sixty four municipalities 0:17:12.560 --> 0:17:14.800 in New Jersey hates what I say, which probably tells 0:17:14.800 --> 0:17:15.480 you that I'm right. 0:17:15.400 --> 0:17:17.639 About it, to be honest with you, but that's kind 0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:18.240 of where we are. 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:21.480 Jersey City, I think at twenty to twenty two approve 0:17:21.560 --> 0:17:25.920 something where developers, on a voluntary basis can expand a 0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:28.359 number of units in a plot in exchange for some 0:17:28.600 --> 0:17:32.399 level of affordable uni eskumitment. Is that being utilized, like 0:17:32.440 --> 0:17:34.840 what is the math work? It's voluntary to include more 0:17:34.840 --> 0:17:37.520 affordable units and then they get to expand. 0:17:37.200 --> 0:17:40.639 The number of Is that being utilized? It's used actually 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:43.200 a lot. So it's a little bit different than the 0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:46.800 inclusionary zoning ordinance, which was you get an approval and 0:17:46.880 --> 0:17:49.800 let's say twenty percent has to be inclusionary zoning depending 0:17:49.800 --> 0:17:52.720 on what the zoning changes. This was an overlay zone 0:17:52.760 --> 0:17:55.680 that we put in place that basically what it's said 0:17:56.000 --> 0:17:58.679 is that within the existing envelope of the building, so 0:17:58.760 --> 0:18:01.360 from an outside you could just add more density in there. 0:18:01.760 --> 0:18:04.520 It is being used because what you see in Jersey 0:18:04.520 --> 0:18:07.119 City is you see a lot of these smaller units 0:18:07.119 --> 0:18:09.879 in these larger buildings and they trade it roughly from 0:18:09.920 --> 0:18:12.119 the downtown area, let's say one hundred thousand dollars a. 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:13.160 Door on approval. 0:18:13.520 --> 0:18:16.119 So it's of high value to do that for us 0:18:16.160 --> 0:18:17.200 from the city standpoint. 0:18:17.280 --> 0:18:18.679 Wait, that mean trade at all? 0:18:18.800 --> 0:18:20.800 Like if you sell Let's say, if you let's say 0:18:20.800 --> 0:18:24.280 you were a building is approved for ten units, you 0:18:24.280 --> 0:18:26.320 would say it's roughly would be one hundred, would be 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:30.080 a million dollars, okay, So and that math is exponential 0:18:30.280 --> 0:18:32.639 for if you have a three four hundred unit building. 0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:36.359 From our standpoint, it was the best way to approach 0:18:36.600 --> 0:18:40.879 a need for affordable housing without changing the esthetics or 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:43.040 the scale of the building on the outside, which is 0:18:43.080 --> 0:18:46.119 problematic off into kind of the community group, so to speak. 0:18:46.400 --> 0:18:49.240 So it is being used. I would probably say it's 0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:52.800 being used as much, if not more than the inclusionary 0:18:52.880 --> 0:18:55.280 zoning ordinance that we have in place, and it's just 0:18:55.280 --> 0:18:57.760 been another tool to kind of increase affordable housing production. 0:18:58.040 --> 0:19:01.199 Since you mentioned aesthetics, I find those really interesting because 0:19:01.359 --> 0:19:05.240 esthetics doesn't always come into the conversation on affordable housing, 0:19:05.320 --> 0:19:07.919 and it is an issue for a lot of people. 0:19:07.960 --> 0:19:10.680 And I think about the look of Jersey City versus 0:19:10.800 --> 0:19:12.960 I don't know a Hoboken or something like that. They're 0:19:13.040 --> 0:19:16.600 very different. How important are aesthetics in your conversations? And 0:19:16.640 --> 0:19:18.480 I guess how do you address some of those issues. 0:19:19.080 --> 0:19:21.560 We have a good planning department and we've gotten better 0:19:21.640 --> 0:19:28.080 at it as we've gotten more sophisticated developers into Jersey City. 0:19:28.680 --> 0:19:31.439 It's allowed us to be more aggressive with the aesthetics 0:19:31.480 --> 0:19:33.400 and push developers a little bit more. 0:19:33.320 --> 0:19:35.040 So you can dictate what things will look. 0:19:35.080 --> 0:19:37.840 We we can to some degree, and I think that 0:19:38.000 --> 0:19:42.399 as the marketplace has become more competitive, the natural outcome 0:19:42.440 --> 0:19:44.720 of the private sectors that they're pushing each other to 0:19:44.840 --> 0:19:49.040 better products that look better, feel better, better amenities, you know, 0:19:49.080 --> 0:19:51.040 whether it's a pool or a kind of a little 0:19:51.040 --> 0:19:53.000 golf range or whatever they got going on in there. 0:19:53.280 --> 0:19:55.960 It's changed over time a little bit better. And because 0:19:55.960 --> 0:19:58.280