1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. 2 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. 3 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 3: I'm Jill Whysenthal and I'm Tracy Alloway. 4 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 2: Been covering little local politics these days. Tracey, it's not 5 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 2: our normal beat, but sometimes there's a little intersection. 6 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:33,240 Speaker 3: We're going local, not macro micro. 7 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 2: We're going micro. So it's interesting because we did a 8 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 2: recent episode. Listeners may remember it was one of the 9 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:41,519 Speaker 2: candidates for the mayorship here in New York City's are 10 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:44,640 Speaker 2: on Mom Donnie and he sort of talked about his 11 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 2: vision for affordability. Actually backing up for a second, it 12 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 2: feels like housing affordability is suddenly swamping everything is the 13 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:57,279 Speaker 2: issue almost regardless of your perspective, that is like on 14 00:00:57,400 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 2: top of many people's minds these days. 15 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 3: Well also, so we've talked about this before, but also 16 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 3: seems like a bipartisan issue, right and like you don't 17 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 3: get a lot of bipartisan things nowadays. I'll just put 18 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:09,480 Speaker 3: it that way. 19 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 2: No, but it's interesting, like you know, at one point 20 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:15,399 Speaker 2: there is like healthcare and sometimes climate other time. Right now, 21 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:18,040 Speaker 2: it just feels like there is such a so much 22 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 2: anxiety about housing affordability and all this stuff, and it 23 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,399 Speaker 2: feels like it's a nationwide thing. Within the Democratic Party, 24 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:26,680 Speaker 2: there are different wings of how people talk about it, 25 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:29,840 Speaker 2: so we obviously talked to the socialist candidate for mayor. 26 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 2: There's also what people would call like this sort of 27 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 2: like more liberal abundance view that you know, the answer 28 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:38,279 Speaker 2: is just we just need more and use whatever levers 29 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 2: to pull to like get more in some way. So, 30 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:43,480 Speaker 2: you know, even within one party though, although everyone sort 31 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 2: of agrees on rent and affordability, not a lot of 32 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 2: consensus on the path there. 33 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, so the overall goal is very clear, but I 34 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 3: guess like the levers that you're going to pull to 35 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 3: get there are very complicated, And I have to say 36 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 3: that's one thing that I kind of struggle with in 37 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 3: those topics. It seems like there are so many different 38 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 3: things that you could do, and all of them seem 39 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 3: very like bureaucratic, very technical tax abatements, all these incentives 40 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 3: rent control, and it's interesting to me how you choose 41 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:16,799 Speaker 3: between them about what's going to be most effective. 42 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:18,520 Speaker 2: Can I just say, by the way, you know, I 43 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:20,679 Speaker 2: think a lot of these debates are very part of 44 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 2: the reason they exist because the media is very heavily 45 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 2: represented in New York and San Francisco. I mean, I 46 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 2: don't think that there's a no affordability crisis in like Devenport, 47 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 2: Iowa to the same degree, and I think that's important 48 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:34,079 Speaker 2: to acknowledge. I also think like New York and you know, 49 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:36,080 Speaker 2: San francisc are some of the best places in the world, 50 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 2: so I get why people pay a lot of money 51 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 2: for them. Anyway, it turns out one of the best 52 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 2: cities over the last several years in the entire country 53 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 2: for housing production is our neighbor, Jersey City, right across 54 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:49,079 Speaker 2: the water. I really like Jersey City. I've spent a 55 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 2: little bit of time there, and their mayor, Stephen Phillip, 56 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:55,119 Speaker 2: is running for governor in the Democratic primary right now, 57 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 2: so we have the perfect guest to talk about Jersey 58 00:02:57,760 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 2: City housing production. 59 00:02:59,040 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 4: Stephen Phllip. 60 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you so much for coming on odd Laws. 61 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 4: Thanks for having me. I appreciate being here. 62 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 2: For those people who don't know, you've been in the 63 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 2: mayor of Jersey City for how long I think I 64 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:09,359 Speaker 2: saw it was like in the last ten years, housing 65 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 2: stock has increased like twenty five percent something like that. 66 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, we used to be maybe two percent 67 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 5: of the state's building permits. We're upwards of ten percent now. 68 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:20,079 Speaker 5: I mean, we've been the backbone economically the state of 69 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 5: New Jersey. I've been the mayor there for twelve years. 70 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 5: I've been unapologetically very very pro growth. You could see 71 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 5: the skyline change across the river. So it's been a 72 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:30,919 Speaker 5: good story and we're growing and I'm very proud of 73 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 5: the changes that have happened. 74 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 3: What's the biggest choke point or hurdle when it comes 75 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 3: to building more affordable housing? Because everyone seems to have 76 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 3: a different answer to this and different things that they 77 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 3: would put emphasis on. But in your view, what's number one? 78 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 4: What do other people say? Out of curiosity? 79 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 3: The people say like zoning and things like that, incentivizing 80 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 3: the developers to build something other than luxury high rises, 81 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 3: that sort of thing. 82 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 4: I'd point to a couple of things. 83 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 5: I mean, in New Jersey, we have definitely have an 84 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 5: incentive program that is complicated. We have obviously zoning with 85 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 5: home rules, so you have a lot of municipalities five 86 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 5: hundred and sixty four municipalities, which is problematic and home rule, 87 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 5: So how do you overcome that, which I think we 88 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 5: have some solutions for and I think that generally speaking, 89 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:18,039 Speaker 5: across the country you have kind of the Nimby sentiment 90 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:21,039 Speaker 5: monopolizing the conversation. And how do you wrestle that away 91 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:24,480 Speaker 5: from them is different in each city or state, But 92 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 5: in New Jersey, I think we've done a pretty good 93 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 5: job of kind of creating a dynamic where the people 94 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 5: that are pro growth. 95 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 4: Can also have a voice there. 96 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:37,600 Speaker 2: You've been pretty unapologetic in your view that market rate 97 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 2: housing benefits everyone, that there's supply and demand, you expand supply, 98 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 2: it filters down, et cetera. You talk about quote affordable 99 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:52,719 Speaker 2: housing unquote, but give us your general philosophy of housing 100 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 2: and make it more affordable and why you believe that 101 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 2: a lot of the solution is essentially liberalizing and supply 102 00:04:59,680 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 2: and demand. 103 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:02,840 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think people build what they want with there. Yes, 104 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 5: I think that when you put more restrictions around housing 105 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:09,480 Speaker 5: growth so you know, rent control sounds like a good buzzwords, 106 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 5: But when you're too restrictive around that stuff, you're going 107 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 5: to create a situation where you're not seeing supply being increased. 108 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:19,280 Speaker 5: We've seen in Jersey City pressure when New York City 109 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 5: isn't growing on our housing prices, and when we've grown 110 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 5: a lot, you've seen the demand still high, but the 111 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 5: rent increase is subside. 112 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 4: So it leads you to the. 113 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 5: Conclusion that the market rate component of housing is as 114 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:36,719 Speaker 5: important to the conversation as the affordable conversation. And you know, look, 115 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:38,840 Speaker 5: a lot of people push back for a variety of reasons. 116 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 5: Sometimes it's rooted in racism. I mean, people have a 117 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 5: different reaction if you use the word affordable housing versus 118 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:46,679 Speaker 5: housing that's affordable. They have a different kind of thought 119 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:49,600 Speaker 5: process around that. But the reality of the situation is 120 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 5: that market rate housing helps you build more affordable housing 121 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 5: or housing that's affordable, and they have to work together 122 00:05:57,440 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 5: to be successful. And that's how we've approached it in 123 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 5: Jersey City and it's really been successful. 124 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 3: So one of the criticisms of market rate is that 125 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:07,719 Speaker 3: you end up with those developers just building the luxury 126 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:10,839 Speaker 3: apartments because they can ring more money out of those. 127 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 3: How do you address I guess the balance between luxury 128 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 3: housing versus I don't know, housing for the middle class 129 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 3: or housing that's further down the spectrum. 130 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 5: Yeah, so in Jersey City, we do have kind of 131 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 5: set asides or inclusionary zoning ordinances and those are important. 132 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:28,040 Speaker 4: We've gone back and forth with the. 133 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 5: Advocacy groups on what's actually achievable, and we've actually come 134 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:34,559 Speaker 5: to a place that's pretty successful. And we generally target 135 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 5: about twenty percent of a housing development to be a 136 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 5: blended affordable component. So that could be workforce housing, that 137 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 5: could be low income housing, which is obviously more stressful 138 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:47,719 Speaker 5: on the overall project. So you got to factor some 139 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 5: of that stuff in. But we do have, you know, 140 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 5: a specific minimum requirement when they do get a specific 141 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 5: incentive like a tax abatement from the city. 142 00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 4: Well specific lever. 143 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 2: So, Okay, you've been the main of Jersey City for 144 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 2: twelve years. Is objectively true that the skyline has changed 145 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:07,360 Speaker 2: a lot, Is objectively true that the housing stock has grown. 146 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 2: I'm sure it's benefited just from the fact that, you know, 147 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 2: Manhattan and New York City has been fairly dismal about 148 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 2: expanding housing supply, and so people look elsewhere. But versus 149 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 2: before you came into office, Now, what are the specific 150 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 2: levers that you've pulled to expand production and how can 151 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 2: you like attribute you know, when you do an attribution 152 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 2: of the housing stock, what can you say to what 153 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 2: you've done. 154 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 4: So. 155 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 5: When I came into office, the tax abatement or incentive 156 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 5: program was very political in nature, and it seemed to 157 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 5: be by right for the developers that were pursuing it. 158 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 5: And there were two problems with that. The politics of 159 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 5: it created kind of uncertainty and apprehension about people investing 160 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 5: in a market if they weren't familiar with the politics 161 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 5: about it. And the uncertainty of how the process worked 162 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 5: was problematic as well. So we came in and we 163 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 5: changed the policy entirely, and people said it we wouldn't 164 00:07:58,440 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 5: see the mount of growth. But I viewed it at 165 00:07:59,880 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 5: the time that it was such a given that you 166 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 5: would get these tax abatements that it didn't necessarily incentivize 167 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 5: more growth. It was already factored into the seller's price 168 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 5: and the buyer's price and the private transaction. So we 169 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 5: had to recalibrate that market a little bit. And so 170 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 5: what I did was we changed the tax abatement process 171 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 5: where we mapped it to census. Tracts based on poor 172 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 5: census were automatically entitled to a steeper incentive. And what 173 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 5: you've gradually saw was people moving away from the waterfront 174 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 5: and investing money because it seemed more certain the process, 175 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 5: and it seemed to have a clear advantage if you 176 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 5: were moving to certain areas. And we mapped it to 177 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 5: the census track, which seemed like a reasonable way to 178 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 5: map it towards income where you're trying to instigate development, 179 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:46,079 Speaker 5: and so that worked, and I think that that clarity 180 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 5: really helped people invest and attracted new developers to the area. 181 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 5: So we were no longer relying on the same small 182 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:56,959 Speaker 5: pool of developers. And I think the certainty was very 183 00:08:57,040 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 5: good because you know, New Jersey has a history of 184 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 5: political corruption, and feeling that there was some process around 185 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 5: this that it wasn't necessarily predicated on what lawyer or 186 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 5: architect you hire created a better climate for business. 187 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 3: So you mentioned widening the pool of developers, and this 188 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 3: is something that Joe and I are really interested in. 189 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 3: We went down to North Carolina and learned that towns 190 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 3: and cities really have to make pitches to developers to 191 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 3: get them to come in. What's the process of, I guess, 192 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 3: working with a developer talking to them actually like, what 193 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 3: are the things that they are looking for specifically? 194 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:35,320 Speaker 5: Well, look, I think that they are interested in an 195 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 5: administration that seems less political in nature and more focused 196 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:43,680 Speaker 5: or aligned in a pro growth mentality that recognizes that 197 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 5: they are in the business of providing housing and there's 198 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 5: mutually beneficial outcomes if we work together. When I became 199 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 5: the mayor of Jersey City, one of the things that 200 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:55,960 Speaker 5: I did with the existing developer pool was I recognized 201 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 5: the fact that we needed to market the city better 202 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 5: to the surrounding areas. I knew that, you know, not 203 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 5: necessarily Soho or Tribeco was in a comparison to Jersey City. 204 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:08,080 Speaker 5: Somebody wasn't making the choice should I live in Tribeca 205 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 5: or Jersey City, but certainly with Brooklyn and Queens and 206 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 5: the outer boroughs. So we got most of the larger 207 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:16,199 Speaker 5: developers at that point together, and what I said to 208 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 5: them was that we would do a marketing campaign where 209 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 5: the city's Economic Development Corporation would match the private dollars 210 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 5: one for one, and it would be targeted in these 211 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 5: areas that we think that we can attract new residents 212 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:31,079 Speaker 5: and new developers. And I was very deliberate that it 213 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 5: would not be political in nature, like I would not 214 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 5: appear in this, My voice would not be a part 215 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:37,560 Speaker 5: of it. It was going to be focused on branding 216 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 5: the city in a different way that ultimately led to 217 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 5: more interests, more demands, more developers, and I think that 218 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 5: that was a very very helpful step that we did 219 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 5: out of the gate. The politics is always problematic and 220 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:50,600 Speaker 5: people are apprehensive about that. 221 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 3: Wait, what do you mean by political exactly? 222 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 5: Well, the political is in most places, at least in 223 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 5: New Jersey, it's been a history of who you know 224 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 5: and a very small cadre of relationships that have allowed 225 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 5: you entree into the process. And in a place like 226 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 5: New Jersey where a lot of the rules are codified 227 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 5: in a very very loose way, you feel obligated that 228 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 5: you got to have a real certain type of relationship. 229 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 5: And the more you can remove that towards the business climate, 230 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 5: the more likely people are to invest in them. And 231 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 5: I feel like that's been the kind of a big 232 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 5: change in Jersey City overall. 233 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 2: This is super interesting. I don't think this dimension of 234 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:30,560 Speaker 2: housing unaffordability or the challenges to production has come up. 235 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 2: But when you look at still today Jersey overall, you're 236 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:36,599 Speaker 2: running for governor, do you still see, like outside of 237 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 2: Jersey City a general tendency towards it's going to be 238 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 2: difficult to get approvals and so forth, if you aren't 239 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:47,439 Speaker 2: with the right architect, if you aren't with the right paper, 240 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 2: and so forth. Is that still an endemic problem in 241 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 2: New Jersey at constrainings and the supply of house. 242 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 5: I think it's a cultural issue in New Jersey. I mean, 243 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 5: we had a senator that is about to go to 244 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 5: jail for gold bars. I mean that's a example of 245 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:04,319 Speaker 5: the political culture of how people perceive New Jersey. I 246 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 5: think that any reasonable person would estimate that you're in 247 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 5: the two hundred thousand unit shortage range for the state 248 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 5: of New Jersey, now maybe given a little and the 249 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 5: production of affordable units is roughly only like three thousand 250 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 5: a year, so you're looking at close to seventy years 251 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 5: to cure the backlog that you have today. It's quite significant, 252 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 5: and there is a sentiment that, you know, municipality by 253 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 5: municipality has this disproportionate amount of control over the outcomes 254 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 5: of housing production. And part of the job as governor 255 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 5: will be to kind of change that narrative. So the 256 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 5: nimbi's not my backyard, are the not monopolizing the conversation? 257 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:45,440 Speaker 5: And there's a lot of ways that I think a 258 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:46,320 Speaker 5: governor can do that. 259 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 3: Well, let's talk about that. How do you deal with 260 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:50,200 Speaker 3: the nimbi's. 261 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 2: And the localities fight it because there must be tension 262 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:53,439 Speaker 2: between state versu. 263 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 5: Local Yeah, I think there's a couple of things you 264 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 5: could do. So New Jersey has a fair share housing 265 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 5: requirement which has been litigated for thirty forty years, where 266 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 5: every municipality is going to have some sort of obligation 267 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,600 Speaker 5: on housing, and a lot of the municipalities push back. 268 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 5: If it's a suburban municipality, they say, well, you're obligating 269 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 5: us to this two hundred affordable units and they come 270 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 5: under an eighty twenty rule, So the two hundred units 271 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 5: equates to roughly one thousand units overall, which is kind 272 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 5: of The mayors would say its taxing on their infrastructure, 273 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 5: which is true. So the nimbi's then co opt the 274 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 5: conversation and drag these out in court for some period 275 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 5: of time. 276 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:31,320 Speaker 4: So trentd. 277 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 5: A I think, can do a better job of creating 278 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 5: transparency around your municipality where it is in the process 279 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:39,679 Speaker 5: today that doesn't exist. So for example, if Westfield to 280 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 5: use that as an example of municipality is cooperating and 281 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 5: doing a good job. There's no transparency to that. So 282 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 5: the nimbi's generally control the conversation at the planning boards 283 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 5: because of the fact that there's a lack of information. 284 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 5: So I think TREND being helpful in that is part 285 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:59,200 Speaker 5: of it. Number two is that if you have an 286 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:02,560 Speaker 5: objective to new housing, which New Jersey does, and when 287 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 5: a mayor or council people say that you're going to 288 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:09,559 Speaker 5: make us build these thousand units but added children in 289 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 5: the schools, added needed infrastructure, I do think TREND needs 290 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:17,239 Speaker 5: to tie dollars in resources to those municipalities that are cooperating. 291 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 5: You do need a carrot and stick approach, otherwise you're 292 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 5: never going to get mayors to actually move in a 293 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 5: place that has home rule like New Jersey. 294 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 3: Okay, so speaking of municipalities and infrastructure, Yeah, one of 295 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 3: your proposals is consolidating some of those municipalities so that 296 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 3: you don't have a doubling or I guess triplicating quadruplicating 297 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 3: is that a thing of services in order to cut costs? 298 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 3: And I get that cutting government services and costs is 299 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 3: obviously very hot right now, But what particular benchmarks or 300 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 3: targets are you looking at here, and how do you 301 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 3: ensure I guess, quality of service as you consolidate. 302 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 5: Yeah, so I think the way that we start this 303 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 5: is more focused on shared services than absolute consolidation. And 304 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 5: from a mayoral standpoint, knowing that again, New Jersey has 305 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 5: five hundred and sixty four municipalities, a lot of municipalities 306 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 5: for a very very small area, all with home rule, 307 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 5: and all have departments that are not necessarily important by 308 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 5: municipality for municipality. Just to put in perspective, seventy five 309 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 5: percent of those five hundred and sixty four municipalities have 310 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 5: less than twenty thousand people. Fifty percent of them have 311 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 5: less than ten thousand people. So a lot of very 312 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 5: small municipalities that all have offices like health departments which 313 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 5: should probably be at the county, animal control should be 314 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 5: at the county, things like that. And so I think 315 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 5: that we've outlined the process to create leverage over the 316 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 5: municipalities via referendum and to force kind of shared service 317 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 5: once try has leverage, and I think that's the way 318 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 5: you got to get there, because nobody's going to voluntarily 319 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 5: give up parts of their government unless you have trend 320 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 5: creating leverage on. 321 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 3: That why hasn't this been done before? Because when I 322 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 3: think about animal control, for instance, it does seem kind 323 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 3: of crazy that you have hundreds, dozens of municipalities that 324 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 3: are all running their own animal control services. But like 325 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 3: I imagine, there must be a challenge in doing some 326 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:23,360 Speaker 3: of this. 327 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 5: I think that for the most part, mayors and council 328 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 5: people are reluctant to give up departments or relationships. Often 329 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 5: the people that work in these small municipalities or large municipalities, 330 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 5: or personal relationships. You may know the person's family, they've 331 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 5: been there for a long time, and so just the 332 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 5: bureaucracy and stagnation is what ends up getting you into 333 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 5: this place of not wanting to make any change. People 334 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 5: have talked about it for twenty years about some sort 335 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 5: of consolidation. The difference in how we're approaching it is 336 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 5: that we are using kind of the referendum process around 337 00:16:56,320 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 5: bonding for municipalities to create leverage over the municipality is 338 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 5: to force it. Apps In forcing it, you're never going 339 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:05,159 Speaker 5: to get it to happen. That's the truth, and so 340 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 5: it's a little bit of a different approach. I could 341 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 5: tell you that the League of Municipalities, which is the 342 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 5: advocacy group for all five hundred and sixty four municipalities 343 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 5: in New Jersey hates what I say, which probably tells 344 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 5: you that I'm right. 345 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:17,639 Speaker 4: About it, to be honest with you, but that's kind 346 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 4: of where we are. 347 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 2: Jersey City, I think at twenty to twenty two approve 348 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:25,920 Speaker 2: something where developers, on a voluntary basis can expand a 349 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:28,359 Speaker 2: number of units in a plot in exchange for some 350 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:32,399 Speaker 2: level of affordable uni eskumitment. Is that being utilized, like 351 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 2: what is the math work? It's voluntary to include more 352 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 2: affordable units and then they get to expand. 353 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:40,639 Speaker 5: The number of Is that being utilized? It's used actually 354 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:43,200 Speaker 5: a lot. So it's a little bit different than the 355 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 5: inclusionary zoning ordinance, which was you get an approval and 356 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 5: let's say twenty percent has to be inclusionary zoning depending 357 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 5: on what the zoning changes. This was an overlay zone 358 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:55,680 Speaker 5: that we put in place that basically what it's said 359 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:58,679 Speaker 5: is that within the existing envelope of the building, so 360 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:01,360 Speaker 5: from an outside you could just add more density in there. 361 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 5: It is being used because what you see in Jersey 362 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:07,119 Speaker 5: City is you see a lot of these smaller units 363 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:09,879 Speaker 5: in these larger buildings and they trade it roughly from 364 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:12,119 Speaker 5: the downtown area, let's say one hundred thousand dollars a. 365 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:13,160 Speaker 4: Door on approval. 366 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:16,119 Speaker 5: So it's of high value to do that for us 367 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:17,200 Speaker 5: from the city standpoint. 368 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:18,679 Speaker 2: Wait, that mean trade at all? 369 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 5: Like if you sell Let's say, if you let's say 370 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 5: you were a building is approved for ten units, you 371 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 5: would say it's roughly would be one hundred, would be 372 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 5: a million dollars, okay, So and that math is exponential 373 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:32,639 Speaker 5: for if you have a three four hundred unit building. 374 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:36,359 Speaker 5: From our standpoint, it was the best way to approach 375 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:40,879 Speaker 5: a need for affordable housing without changing the esthetics or 376 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 5: the scale of the building on the outside, which is 377 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:46,119 Speaker 5: problematic off into kind of the community group, so to speak. 378 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:49,240 Speaker 5: So it is being used. I would probably say it's 379 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 5: being used as much, if not more than the inclusionary 380 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 5: zoning ordinance that we have in place, and it's just 381 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 5: been another tool to kind of increase affordable housing production. 382 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:01,199 Speaker 3: Since you mentioned aesthetics, I find those really interesting because 383 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 3: esthetics doesn't always come into the conversation on affordable housing, 384 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:07,919 Speaker 3: and it is an issue for a lot of people. 385 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:10,680 Speaker 3: And I think about the look of Jersey City versus 386 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 3: I don't know a Hoboken or something like that. They're 387 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 3: very different. How important are aesthetics in your conversations? And 388 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 3: I guess how do you address some of those issues. 389 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 5: We have a good planning department and we've gotten better 390 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 5: at it as we've gotten more sophisticated developers into Jersey City. 391 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:31,439 Speaker 5: It's allowed us to be more aggressive with the aesthetics 392 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:33,400 Speaker 5: and push developers a little bit more. 393 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 3: So you can dictate what things will look. 394 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 5: We we can to some degree, and I think that 395 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:42,399 Speaker 5: as the marketplace has become more competitive, the natural outcome 396 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:44,720 Speaker 5: of the private sectors that they're pushing each other to 397 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 5: better products that look better, feel better, better amenities, you know, 398 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 5: whether it's a pool or a kind of a little 399 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 5: golf range or whatever they got going on in there. 400 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 5: It's changed over time a little bit better. And because 401 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:58,280 Speaker 5: we've grown so much, everybody's thinking about how to make 402 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 5: their building more competitive. The building are being absorbed into 403 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 5: the market as quickly as we're building them. They would 404 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 5: tell you that that's largely because of New York's lack 405 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:09,920 Speaker 5: of construction, which is a bigger problem, but it also 406 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:12,200 Speaker 5: has benefited us from the aesthetic standpoint. 407 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 4: For sure. 408 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 2: So here's a big picture thought that I have go 409 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 2: for it, and I kind of hinted at the beginning, 410 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:21,360 Speaker 2: But New York City and our neighbors on the other 411 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:23,960 Speaker 2: side of the water greatest place to live in the 412 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:24,639 Speaker 2: entire world. 413 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 4: In my opinion. 414 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 2: The economic opportunities for an individual here are extraordinary. The 415 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 2: cultural opportunities are extraordinary. I understand intuitively why rents here 416 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 2: or mortgages are so expensive because it's the best place 417 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:41,639 Speaker 2: in the entire world. Jersey City has expanded the housing 418 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 2: stock quite a bit, but also affordability has worsened over 419 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:49,120 Speaker 2: the last decade or so. Is that inevitable because it's 420 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 2: just so good. People want to live in the best 421 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:52,160 Speaker 2: place in the world, and so it's going to get 422 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 2: more expensive because this is where they're sort of like 423 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 2: when I talk to a lot of the yimbi's, I 424 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:00,879 Speaker 2: understand like expanding production there's good for the economy, et cetera. 425 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:04,160 Speaker 2: I'm less convinced that market housing or any housing can 426 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 2: actually make these places cheaper because they're so good, they're 427 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:11,440 Speaker 2: so desirable. Well like, can you actually like solve affordability 428 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:13,160 Speaker 2: or do you just have a lot more people here? 429 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 5: And that's good enough, you could definitely slow the growth 430 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 5: of rental increases. Okay, so whether you're going to have 431 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:22,920 Speaker 5: a massive rental decrease, I don't know, but you could 432 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 5: definitely slow the growth. And we've seen that in the 433 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,959 Speaker 5: last year two years, whereas Jersey City was consistently ranked 434 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 5: as very very steep rent increases and it was problematic 435 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:36,400 Speaker 5: that has slowed because of the supply conversation. Specifically though 436 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 5: for Jersey City, I think that yes, we have been 437 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 5: a victim of our success in many ways and a 438 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 5: victim of New York's lack of construction. So if you 439 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:48,879 Speaker 5: are going to have a regional solution, New York and 440 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 5: particularly Manhattan needs to carry its weight, which is not 441 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:52,440 Speaker 5: happening today. 442 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,159 Speaker 3: Just on this beggar thy neighbor issue. I guess, do 443 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 3: you talk to other cities and other towns about like 444 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,680 Speaker 3: what they should be doing? And I guess how replicable 445 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 3: is the Jersey City model for a place like New 446 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 3: York or Hoboken or wherever. 447 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:08,440 Speaker 4: Well. 448 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 5: I think there's a lot of good things that have 449 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 5: happened in Jersey City, and some of the mayoral candidates 450 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 5: do reference the amount of housing production because it's been 451 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 5: pretty astronomical in Jersey City. It kind of speaks to 452 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 5: the lack of production again in New York. I think 453 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:25,880 Speaker 5: as governor there's a lot of things that you can 454 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 5: do to change the climate in New Jersey around housing production. 455 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 5: And one of the challenges that we've had in New 456 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 5: Jersey is you haven't had a governor with municipal experience 457 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:36,639 Speaker 5: in twenty years, you know, you know, Phil Murphy came 458 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 5: from being ambassador, and Chris Christy was a use attorney, 459 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 5: and John Corzin was you a senator, and et cetera, 460 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 5: et cetera. So I do think understanding the touch points, 461 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:49,200 Speaker 5: the leverage points, how to motivate somebody at the municipal 462 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 5: level is very, very important to being a governor in 463 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:52,879 Speaker 5: a place like New Jersey. 464 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:57,439 Speaker 2: Actually, speaking of politics, I think in this race, are 465 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:01,119 Speaker 2: you the only candidate in the race that supports the 466 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:02,640 Speaker 2: congestion pricing sea? 467 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:03,680 Speaker 4: All Right? 468 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:06,919 Speaker 2: As a resident of Manhattan who doesn't drive much in 469 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 2: the city, I think congestion pricing is great. But I'm 470 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 2: not you know, I'm not. 471 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:13,880 Speaker 5: Using why am I as a New Jersey resident thinking 472 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 5: that it's all how do you sell it? 473 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:17,679 Speaker 4: How do you sell it? Well, look, people ask me 474 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 4: in a lot. 475 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:19,640 Speaker 2: This is like also gets to some of the other 476 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 2: questions around housing witches that some of these benefits are 477 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:24,119 Speaker 2: diffused the long term and not meet it. 478 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 5: So how do you sell So first of all, if 479 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 5: you care about the health issues, or the environment issues, 480 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 5: or mass transit issues, then obviously you should be supportive 481 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 5: of the concept of congestion pricing to begin with. I say, 482 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 5: secondly to people, if you take a step back and 483 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:43,120 Speaker 5: get away from kind of polling data which people would 484 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,400 Speaker 5: say I don't like the idea of an additional search charge. 485 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 5: If you ask yourself, who is the person that drives 486 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:52,439 Speaker 5: their personal vehicle from New Jersey every day to midtime 487 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 5: Manhattan then pays fifteen hundred dollars to park the car 488 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 5: in midtowm Mahaanan. It's not regular working class people. Regular 489 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 5: people take the trains and buses to the port Authority 490 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:04,160 Speaker 5: or to Penn Station and then they use the MTA system. 491 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:08,159 Speaker 5: Wealthy people drive their personal vehicle every day. The point 492 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:10,359 Speaker 5: is that you need to invest in mass transit and 493 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 5: we need to get past this kind of concept of 494 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 5: New Jersey versus New York, because New York does rely 495 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 5: on New Jersey transit to service a lot of the 496 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 5: workforce here in New York, and we rely on the 497 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:24,120 Speaker 5: MTA to move us around here once we get here. Ultimately, 498 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 5: when I'm the governor or hopefully get there, want to 499 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:29,359 Speaker 5: get to a place of a regional conversation more around 500 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 5: mass transit. I don't think the current climate of conversation 501 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 5: is productive, and the leverage tool to get New York 502 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 5: back to the table is probably posturing around some sort 503 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:43,400 Speaker 5: of similar tax on New Yorkers eventually to get them 504 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:44,879 Speaker 5: to the table. So you could have a kind of 505 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 5: a holistic regional plan around transportation. That's really where you 506 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:50,439 Speaker 5: got to go if you're going to get the region 507 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 5: to actually move in the right direction. 508 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:54,920 Speaker 3: Why does New Jersey transit suck so much? 509 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 5: I mean, that's like the question I get in every 510 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 5: single meet greets. It's probably just because there's a lack 511 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 5: of interest from trend for some period of time. I mean, 512 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 5: you have buses that have been privatized for a long time, 513 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 5: so I think that's problematic. You have a train system 514 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 5: that doesn't have a dedicated revenue source, and you have 515 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 5: administrations that have not really cared for it. It is so 516 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:18,440 Speaker 5: much so It's not only that it's problematic with the 517 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 5: existing service, it hasn't built out any real infrastructure at all. 518 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 5: So when you look at economic development in the southern 519 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 5: parts of New Jersey, you would see that there is 520 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:30,119 Speaker 5: no mass transit, and the reason that you haven't been 521 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 5: able to attract jobs the same way or housing construction 522 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,959 Speaker 5: is directly related to the lack of mass transit infrastructure. 523 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:39,439 Speaker 2: Actually, I'll talk about this a little bit further because 524 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 2: the quality of public services is something that probably transcends 525 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,879 Speaker 2: both the sort of more center and left side of 526 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,399 Speaker 2: the Democratic Party. That like, where is the future of 527 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 2: any sort of public provision of goods if people don't 528 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 2: think it's good. And so, if you know, the wide 529 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,640 Speaker 2: spread perception is that New Jersey transit is terrible, it's 530 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 2: one thing to say, Okay, yeah, they haven't taken it's 531 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:04,160 Speaker 2: seriously fun. But like I mean, this seems to be 532 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 2: a widespread phenomenon. It's people in New York obviously have 533 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 2: the same issues with the subway and they come up 534 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:12,679 Speaker 2: with their stories, and people in the Bay Area have 535 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,400 Speaker 2: the same issues with the bart and otherwhere they don't 536 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 2: have the same issues because their government just didn't build 537 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 2: out anything in the first place or whatever, But like, 538 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,200 Speaker 2: what is your plan for actually making it a good 539 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:25,159 Speaker 2: quality product that people are like, Yeah, I don't need 540 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:26,679 Speaker 2: a car, I really like the transfer. 541 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 4: Yeah. 542 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,159 Speaker 5: Let me just say I think that the reason that 543 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 5: you've seen what you've just outlined is largely because you 544 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 5: have wages that haven't increased at the same rate as 545 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 5: costs for government, and that disconnect has forced a lot 546 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:45,560 Speaker 5: of choices, which ultimately has led to less services. Okay, 547 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 5: on New Jersey Transit, we've outlined kind of a couple 548 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 5: of things that are really big priorities for me on 549 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 5: the funding, and it doesn't rely on the federal government 550 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 5: and we could do it ourselves. Last year film or 551 00:26:56,520 --> 00:27:00,119 Speaker 5: if you put in place a corporate business tax, it 552 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,400 Speaker 5: was our idea actually on companies with ten million dollars plus. 553 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:05,119 Speaker 4: He gave us credit for it. He put it in 554 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:06,200 Speaker 4: place for five years. 555 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,640 Speaker 5: Only it's problematic only because a you have to come 556 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,920 Speaker 5: back and to fix it, and b you can't bond 557 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:14,959 Speaker 5: against a five year revenue, which you need to do 558 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 5: because if you're going to make New Jersey Transit better, 559 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:19,879 Speaker 5: you got to invest in the train stations and bus stations. 560 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 5: So people feel they're clean and modern and safe. So 561 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:24,359 Speaker 5: got to fix that. Number one, we would do that 562 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,399 Speaker 5: right away. Number two is the largest infrastructure project in 563 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 5: the state of New Jersey is really this turnpike widening 564 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 5: project which goes into the Holland Tunnel. And it doesn't 565 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,679 Speaker 5: make a lot of sense because it's a twelve billion 566 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,360 Speaker 5: dollar project and the Holland Tunnel is still too late, 567 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:40,399 Speaker 5: So it doesn't matter if you make twenty lanes coming 568 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,239 Speaker 5: into it, right you have that same bottleneck. And you know, 569 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,439 Speaker 5: similar to what the governor of Maryland did and some 570 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 5: of the others, we would reallocate those dollars towards mass transit, 571 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 5: in particular light rail expansion in South Jersey and in 572 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,480 Speaker 5: Bergen County. And then I do think that it's a 573 00:27:54,520 --> 00:28:00,359 Speaker 5: priority to go away from privatizing the buses. 574 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:14,359 Speaker 2: I don't know which is worse, Tracy going into the 575 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,159 Speaker 2: Holland Tunnel from the Jersey side or exiting the Holland 576 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 2: Tunnel in the New yth City side. Miserable in vote directions, 577 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,119 Speaker 2: I see no upside unless you're going to radically rethink 578 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:25,919 Speaker 2: that and spending one more dollar on that process. 579 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,119 Speaker 3: Anyway, I have a horror story about this, which I 580 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:30,879 Speaker 3: will tell you after this recording. I suspect a lot 581 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 3: of people have horror stories about this, but I want 582 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 3: to go back to housing for a second. 583 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:35,959 Speaker 4: Love housing. 584 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 3: We touched on tax abatements, and obviously tax abatements are 585 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 3: a classic tool for building more affordable units, but they're 586 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 3: not free, right. You're sacrificing revenue in order to do this, 587 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 3: and presumably you need to offset that lost revenue through 588 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 3: tax increases elsewhere. So where does that offset actually come from? 589 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 5: So first of all, let's talk about how to chain 590 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 5: change the tax abatement or pilot program payment and lieu 591 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:04,720 Speaker 5: of taxes so that way it actually makes sense in 592 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 5: New Jersey today. In New Jersey, a short term tax 593 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:11,760 Speaker 5: abatement is by right, so developer can fill out a 594 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 5: program and a piece of paper and they get a 595 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 5: five year tax abatement. The long term taxibatements for twenty 596 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 5: or thirty years are the ones that become political circus. 597 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 5: I do think to increase housing supply, you need to 598 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,800 Speaker 5: change the long term tax abatements to be somewhat more 599 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 5: like the five year tax abaytmance by right, and the 600 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 5: way that we would see this move forward, assuming get elected. 601 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:34,960 Speaker 4: Is that city council. 602 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 5: Or mayor would approve an initial ordinance, so you'd have 603 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 5: a public process around what that tax abatement process for 604 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 5: that administration would look like. 605 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:43,240 Speaker 4: What is the census. 606 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 5: Tracks, what are the affordability components? What are the community 607 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 5: give backs? Is a union labor whatever those are. Once 608 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:50,960 Speaker 5: it's approved, it should go to Trent and to get 609 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 5: approved there by the DCA, and then at that point 610 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 5: I do believe it should be by right so you 611 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 5: can expedite some of this construction components of it. In 612 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 5: New Jersey have again a lot of municipalities, and the 613 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 5: taxes are divided up between the school district, between the 614 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 5: municipality and the county. The school district and the municipality 615 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:14,360 Speaker 5: are obviously priorities, the county less. So it's another layer 616 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 5: of government that you probably need some consolidation long term. 617 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 5: And most of these buildings are new found revenues. They're 618 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 5: not true tax payments where the developer is not paying. 619 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 5: It's a payment in lieu of taxes. So it is 620 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:27,800 Speaker 5: found money, maybe not as much as you would make, 621 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 5: but there still are a lot of inefficiencies in government, 622 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 5: and you could figure. 623 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:33,600 Speaker 4: Out that offset through that process. 624 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 2: There's a lot of inefficient use of land around train 625 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:40,160 Speaker 2: stations in you notice it where it's like there's just 626 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 2: like lots of parking and stuff. It's like, this seems 627 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 2: like it should be like prime places for like really 628 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 2: tall buildings so that someone can walk five minutes to 629 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 2: a train that they take to New York City. 630 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 4: Why is that? 631 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 5: Why is that a lot of that is owned by 632 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 5: New Jersey Transit actually, and so you have a disconnect 633 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 5: in New Jersey where the zoning is controlled by the 634 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:03,720 Speaker 5: local municipality and New Jersey Transit, who owns the property, 635 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 5: perceives that the opportunity or land value is different than 636 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 5: what the existing zoning is. That disconnect has created a 637 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 5: lot of or no movement. 638 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:18,240 Speaker 2: Really, I just don't understand, like why does Jersey Transit 639 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 2: feel the need to hold all this land part it 640 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 2: could be extremely valuable for real estate right there and 641 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 2: leave it for cars. 642 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 5: We will use executive orders around that to kind of 643 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:35,120 Speaker 5: override some of the just a transit oriented development restrictions. 644 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:37,680 Speaker 4: That you have. So the goal is to really use. 645 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:40,920 Speaker 5: That land and circumvent the existing language in the home 646 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 5: rule municipalities that are problematic. 647 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,520 Speaker 3: I want to channel Nimbi's right now, I'm putting on 648 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:52,560 Speaker 3: my Nimbi hat. And obviously, you know, I haven't been 649 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 3: able to go to like a Jersey City town hall 650 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 3: to get like a real sense of it. But I 651 00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,040 Speaker 3: did the next best thing, which is I went to 652 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 3: the Jersey City subreddit. Okay, there's a lot of criticism 653 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 3: on there of I guess gentrification. Sure, right, people are 654 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 3: complaining that all these new high rises are making things 655 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 3: very different to how they used to be, and you're 656 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 3: actually getting rent increases and hip taxes and things like that. 657 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:22,720 Speaker 3: How do you address those concerns? 658 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 5: I mean, look, rent increases, unfortunately, you know, as a 659 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:29,480 Speaker 5: byproduct again of the pressure because of New York, and 660 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 5: we're a victim of our success. 661 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 4: There's no question about that. 662 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:36,320 Speaker 5: You've seen the population increase in Jersey City. So when 663 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 5: people point to the fact that people are being displaced, 664 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:42,720 Speaker 5: the data doesn't necessarily support that, and the diversity in 665 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 5: the city has remained relatively constant. I think that when 666 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 5: you see a lot of the new buildings that are 667 00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:52,080 Speaker 5: going up, those are often on vacant properties that didn't 668 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 5: exist before anything, parking lots or empty lots near Journal Square, 669 00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 5: So you're not saying about displacement. It's the same degree 670 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 5: pece people are talking about. Change is uncomfortable for people. 671 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:06,000 Speaker 5: That's the truth, you know. And you know you're always 672 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 5: going to have people that remember what a city looked 673 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:10,320 Speaker 5: like fifteen twenty years ago that might have been a 674 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,479 Speaker 5: little bit more grittier, a little bit less safe, and 675 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 5: they still like it because of the way it was. 676 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:18,680 Speaker 5: But I think most people would tell you that Jersey 677 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:20,960 Speaker 5: City's change has been beneficial. On the first three term 678 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 5: elected mayor there in seventy years, so somebody likes me, 679 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 5: and I think that the changes for the most part 680 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 5: have been helpful. Not to say that we don't have 681 00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 5: an affordability crisis, but it's a regional issue. It's not 682 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:33,320 Speaker 5: just a Jersey City issue. 683 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 2: I do think you make a good point, you know, 684 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:37,720 Speaker 2: And this gets to my point about why rents have 685 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,240 Speaker 2: in fact gone up now that it's gotten more dent 686 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:42,480 Speaker 2: and there are all those great restaurants at the bottom 687 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:44,520 Speaker 2: of the buildings right when you get off of the 688 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 2: path tren it's more deserrable. 689 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:47,520 Speaker 4: I'll pay more percent. 690 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:49,040 Speaker 2: I'll pay more for it today than I would have 691 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 2: paid an equivalent dollars fifteen years ago when there was 692 00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 2: a you know, probably tumbleweed or whatever it was. You know, 693 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 2: I know it wasn't a tumbleweed, And I think this good. 694 00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 2: Are you an abundance Democrat? 695 00:33:59,200 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 4: You know what? 696 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:01,760 Speaker 5: I didn't even know until six months ago what that 697 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,800 Speaker 5: terminology was, to be honest with you, So, but do 698 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 5: you think that's like. 699 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 2: A useful answer question? But do you think that's like 700 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:08,320 Speaker 2: a useful flag? 701 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:08,840 Speaker 4: Could that be? 702 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 3: Like? 703 00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:11,759 Speaker 4: Is that like I don't know the political I don't know. 704 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,680 Speaker 5: I mean, I don't think it's a useful political term, truthfully, 705 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:18,760 Speaker 5: because I don't think a normal person would read ezracline 706 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 5: in the book like we would read it. But I 707 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:24,160 Speaker 5: don't think by and large a independent voter, which is 708 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 5: what democrats need to move ultimately to be successful, is 709 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,760 Speaker 5: going to understand when you say I'm an abundance Democrat. 710 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 2: And to be fair, I don't know if anyone is 711 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 2: saying that or proposing that anyone should say that, But 712 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:37,520 Speaker 2: I'm just curious about I think the resonance of this label. 713 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:41,319 Speaker 5: I think there is validity to the argument that we 714 00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 5: put a lot of layers and restrictions in place to 715 00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:47,560 Speaker 5: get anything accomplished. And that's not necessarily only Democrats, it's 716 00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,719 Speaker 5: everybody in this country. And I do think that we 717 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,480 Speaker 5: need to kind of move forward on stuff. I don't 718 00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:55,600 Speaker 5: know if the term I mean, it's kind of like 719 00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:57,279 Speaker 5: I guess the last couple of months, you hear it. 720 00:34:57,160 --> 00:34:59,080 Speaker 4: More and more often. We'll see if it sticks around, 721 00:34:59,239 --> 00:34:59,480 Speaker 4: you know. 722 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,360 Speaker 2: Or people saying it these days. Stephen Fillip, mayor of 723 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:06,759 Speaker 2: a Jersey City candidate for the Democratic Party's nominee for governor. 724 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:08,320 Speaker 4: Thank you so much for coming on for having me. 725 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:09,600 Speaker 4: It was really great. Thank you both. 726 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:10,160 Speaker 3: Thanks so much. 727 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:10,600 Speaker 4: That was great. 728 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:24,640 Speaker 2: It was a lot of fun. I will say Tracy 729 00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 2: that you know, I always get so nervous talking to 730 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:29,920 Speaker 2: politicians because I worry that there's gonna be so canned. 731 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:31,640 Speaker 2: You know, we don't do a ton of those. 732 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:34,200 Speaker 3: They tend to be very on message, very on message. 733 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:36,320 Speaker 2: Talking to Steven talked like just talking to like a 734 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,080 Speaker 2: very normal person about issues. I mean, you know, I'm 735 00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:41,920 Speaker 2: sure people would disagree with him about his characterizations something. 736 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:43,719 Speaker 2: It felt like a real conversation. 737 00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, he definitely had a lot of policies 738 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,400 Speaker 3: that he could point to. I guess the big question 739 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:53,440 Speaker 3: is still how replicable this is elsewhere? And for instance, 740 00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:56,359 Speaker 3: you know he talked about on the gentrification issue that 741 00:35:56,560 --> 00:36:01,640 Speaker 3: you're not displacing existing buildings, you're building run primarily empty 742 00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:04,719 Speaker 3: lots and things like that. There aren't many empty lots 743 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:06,040 Speaker 3: in places like Manhattan. 744 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 2: No, in the primary are many empty lots left in 745 00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:11,080 Speaker 2: Jersey City? Yeah, and so part of the question. So 746 00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:12,239 Speaker 2: that's how you know, we were talking about like what 747 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:15,920 Speaker 2: specific mechanisms, and I believe that they exist. But today 748 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,680 Speaker 2: it's a very different city than it was fifteen or 749 00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:21,600 Speaker 2: twenty years ago. And so the degree to which Okay, 750 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:25,120 Speaker 2: well this is just Manhattan spillover or maybe Brooklyn or 751 00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:27,680 Speaker 2: you know whatever spillover people who did work going to 752 00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:29,520 Speaker 2: live in Manhattan in the first place, but then the 753 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,080 Speaker 2: easy pickings have been gone certainly strikes. 754 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:33,520 Speaker 3: Me as the real starting points were different. 755 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:34,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, totally. 756 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,040 Speaker 3: You mentioned tumble weeds, Joe. Yeah, did you know that 757 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:39,800 Speaker 3: tumble weeds come from Russia and there are an invasive 758 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:40,960 Speaker 3: species in the US? 759 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:41,760 Speaker 4: Really? 760 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:44,759 Speaker 3: Yes, I did not know that. Speaking of housing, have 761 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:48,960 Speaker 3: you ever seen the pictures of like houses being absolutely 762 00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:51,040 Speaker 3: like swamped by tumbleweeds? 763 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:56,399 Speaker 2: No, Russia in the eighteen seventies. They arrived in South 764 00:36:56,440 --> 00:37:00,200 Speaker 2: dakoted a likely inflat seed from Russia. These plants are 765 00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:03,839 Speaker 2: known also as Russian thistle. That's super interesting. Yeah, they're 766 00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:05,600 Speaker 2: cool looking. So I don't mind that they got here. 767 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:07,800 Speaker 2: I mean, I guess it's not good. Houses are swamped 768 00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:08,000 Speaker 2: in it. 769 00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 3: No, it's cool. They're actually a big problem. 770 00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:10,760 Speaker 4: It's a serious problem. 771 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:13,520 Speaker 2: One other thing though, that we only got into it 772 00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:17,640 Speaker 2: a little bit. It does seem like because of the 773 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:21,200 Speaker 2: sort of disorganization of American government, you get a lot 774 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:24,319 Speaker 2: of really silly things, like the New Jersey Transit owning 775 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 2: a bunch of land that it could be, you know, 776 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,319 Speaker 2: worth hundreds of millions of dollars if you just put 777 00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:31,880 Speaker 2: a bunch of apartments on there, and people would presumably 778 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:34,560 Speaker 2: kill to live in a nice high rise apartment a 779 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:37,000 Speaker 2: two minute walk from a train station that would take 780 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:40,600 Speaker 2: them right into New York City, and instead it's just parking. 781 00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:43,279 Speaker 2: And yet because of like the zoning, and it just 782 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:46,279 Speaker 2: seems like, let's get it together, come on, let's get 783 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:47,160 Speaker 2: it's just really annoying. 784 00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:49,360 Speaker 3: Well, there's a lot of stasis in policy. 785 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:50,319 Speaker 4: Yeah, it seems so. 786 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:52,800 Speaker 3: I think we've learned that over and over again. 787 00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:54,880 Speaker 2: You know, one last thing too, because it took me 788 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:56,239 Speaker 2: a minute. I think it took both of us a 789 00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:58,880 Speaker 2: minute when Stephen was talking about, oh, housing being very 790 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:01,920 Speaker 2: political and what he meant by that, yeah, was super interesting, 791 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:05,239 Speaker 2: Like we've definitely not talked about the idea that, well, 792 00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:08,759 Speaker 2: one barrier to housing could be essential corruption, which is 793 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:10,920 Speaker 2: a word he used, but you know, even like polite 794 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:11,760 Speaker 2: forms of corruption. 795 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:12,600 Speaker 4: It's very interesting. 796 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:14,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, shall we leave it there. 797 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:15,080 Speaker 4: Let's leave it there. 798 00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:17,640 Speaker 3: This has been another episode of the oud Loots podcast. 799 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:21,080 Speaker 3: I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway and. 800 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:23,680 Speaker 2: I'm Jill Wisenthal. You can follow me at the Stalwart. 801 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,800 Speaker 2: Follow our guest Stephen Phillip. He's at Stephen Phullip. Follow 802 00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:30,120 Speaker 2: our producers Kerman Rodriguez at Kerman armand dash Ol Bennett 803 00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:33,800 Speaker 2: at Dashbot and Kilbrooks at Keil Brooks. From odd Lots content, 804 00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:35,840 Speaker 2: go to bloomberg dot com slash odd Lots. We have 805 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,400 Speaker 2: a daily newsletter and all of our episodes, and you 806 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,000 Speaker 2: can chat about all of these topics. 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