1 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:08,240 Speaker 1: Hey you welcome to Stuff to blow your mind. My 2 00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb. 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,559 Speaker 2: And I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. Time for an 4 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:16,480 Speaker 2: episode from the Vault. This one originally published August twenty fifth, 5 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:19,480 Speaker 2: twenty twenty two, and it is part two of our 6 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:21,279 Speaker 2: series on the paragraph. 7 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: Enjoy Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind, a production 8 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:37,240 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio. Hey you welcome to stuff to Blow your mind. 9 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:38,840 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb. 10 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:41,160 Speaker 2: And I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with part two 11 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:44,959 Speaker 2: of our series on the paragraph. Yes, the writing convention 12 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:50,200 Speaker 2: the paragraph as used in prose. In the last episode, 13 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 2: of course, if you haven't heard that yet, you should 14 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 2: go check that out first. But in the last episode 15 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 2: we especially focused on the history of the paragraph, talking 16 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 2: about the old Greek and Latin manuscripts of Scriptio continua, 17 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:05,480 Speaker 2: which is just a big old mess of letters with 18 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 2: no case differences, no punctuation between sentences, and no spaces 19 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 2: between words. It sounds like an absolute nightmare. And how 20 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 2: over time that morphed into a tradition that put a 21 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 2: greater emphasis on legibility, introducing things like spaces between words 22 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 2: and punctuation case differences and so forth, but eventually also 23 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:31,839 Speaker 2: having this tradition of transition markers such as the pill crow, 24 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 2: which are you know, that's the paragraph symbol. You've probably 25 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:38,679 Speaker 2: seen it before, especially in medieval manuscripts, often being a 26 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 2: little red symbol. But then of course that over time 27 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 2: just giving way to blank space, giving rise to the 28 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 2: paragraph breaks that we know today now concerning the era 29 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 2: of medieval manuscripts, where you had these red pill crows 30 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 2: and they would be filled in by special manuscript artists 31 00:01:55,680 --> 00:02:00,200 Speaker 2: known as rubricators. Again, that's actually from the Latin word 32 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 2: meaning red, so these are the red text people. That 33 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 2: there was a quote from a Middle English poem that 34 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 2: I wanted to share because it struck me as so weird. 35 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 2: This poem was cited in an essay that I'm going 36 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:14,960 Speaker 2: to refer to in this episode, and I did in 37 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 2: the last called Past Lives of the Paragraph by Richard 38 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 2: Hughes Gibson, published in The Hedgehog Review. But the poem 39 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 2: goes like this, Okay, so it's in Middle English, I'll 40 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 2: try it. It's like route is on the book without 41 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 2: v pariffs, great and stout bullet in rose read and 42 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:37,840 Speaker 2: what's going on here? Is that the poet is using 43 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:41,640 Speaker 2: paraff symbols as a metaphor for the five wounds on 44 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 2: the body of Christ. And in modern English this would 45 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 2: these lines would say something like wrought on the book 46 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 2: without five paraffs, great and stout standing out in rose read. 47 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 2: So there you go. That's your typography and crucifixion narrative 48 00:02:56,840 --> 00:03:00,119 Speaker 2: coming together in one great, glorious stew. 49 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:04,639 Speaker 1: This is fascinating when it comes to read text. I 50 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:07,679 Speaker 1: guess the main place one sees it now is that 51 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 1: many bibles, Christian Bibles will contain passages that are the 52 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:17,799 Speaker 1: attributed words of Christ in red, and that's a holdover 53 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 1: from these days. Another case that stands out in my 54 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 1: memory is the book The House of Leaves, in which 55 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 1: I believe the word minotaur is featured in red. And 56 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:31,640 Speaker 1: that book as a whole, I think is interesting to 57 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 1: think of in terms of something that I keep thinking 58 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 1: of discussing the paragraph, and that is the format being 59 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: part of the message, part of the communication that if 60 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 1: you strip away paragraph breaks, it disrupts the communication that 61 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 1: is taking place between between author and reader. And if 62 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 1: you strip away other aspects of formatting, if you tinker 63 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: with things like fonts in a negative fashion. It can 64 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 1: also have such an effect, and that is a book 65 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 1: for example, that if you were to alter too much 66 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 1: about the format at all, you end up decaying the 67 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 1: message and the intended communication of the piece. 68 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 2: This ties into something we talked about in the last episode, 69 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 2: which is the somewhat arbitrary designations of which formatting decisions 70 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 2: are considered integral to the text and which you're not. 71 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 2: And the big example would be ebooks in the way 72 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:30,160 Speaker 2: that they break text across different pages. So you change 73 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 2: the font size on your ebook, the different text will 74 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 2: appear together with different page groupings. And of course this 75 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 2: was true before e books. I mean, different printings of 76 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 2: the same text in book form would usually not have 77 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 2: the exact same words each page, so page layout is 78 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:51,039 Speaker 2: not considered integral, usually in a printed book, though of 79 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:52,839 Speaker 2: course it would be in a book like House of Leaves, 80 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 2: where it's very much a work of art as well 81 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 2: as a book. And yet paragraph breaks are considered an 82 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:00,720 Speaker 2: integral part of the text, and if you change those around, 83 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:03,599 Speaker 2: people I think would mostly have the sense that you 84 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 2: are really altering the author's work. There, even though some 85 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:10,600 Speaker 2: teachers do it and apparently it has good effects, especially 86 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:13,479 Speaker 2: when teaching a piece of writing that has really long paragraphs. 87 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 1: I totally forgot to mention a book that I'm I'm 88 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:18,840 Speaker 1: currently reading, that I'm that I have that are that 89 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:21,479 Speaker 1: has errors in it. I'm reading an old ebook that 90 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:25,599 Speaker 1: I have of Frank Herbert's Heretics of Doune, and I 91 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 1: hadn't I hadn't picked up this e book in a 92 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 1: very long time, and the formatting was weird in it, 93 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 1: not consistently, not enough to where I was like, should 94 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:35,720 Speaker 1: I just buy a new e book of this? Or 95 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 1: should I press on? But occasionally paragraph breaks would be missing, 96 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: and it would often occur with dialogue, so if I'm 97 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:46,600 Speaker 1: just reading along, I might miss that one character has 98 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 1: stopped talking and another character has started talking, or that 99 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:52,360 Speaker 1: there's been some shift in a thought, and it is 100 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 1: it was disruptive to reach those points, and I would 101 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 1: have to stop and go back and sort of pick 102 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 1: apart with my eyes where the actual paragraph break should 103 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:04,559 Speaker 1: have occurred, and then I would momentarily think about buying 104 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 1: a new ebook, and then I would keep going instead. 105 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 2: Wait, I'm perplexed by the idea of an ebook with 106 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:13,279 Speaker 2: fixed errors in it. Okay, so you buy a video 107 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 2: game and it's got bugs, the developers should eventually release 108 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 2: a patch, like an update that'll download, it'll it'll fix 109 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 2: your game, and now it won't have the bugs anymore. 110 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:26,840 Speaker 2: But you download an ebook and it's got bugs in it, 111 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 2: and what they don't do that? 112 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:32,720 Speaker 1: No, Well nowadays they can. Nowadays ebooks can you can 113 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 1: essentially have a patch that goes out through like Amazon 114 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:38,279 Speaker 1: and whatnot. So I don't know. I guess this is 115 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:40,480 Speaker 1: just a super old ebook that I have of this 116 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:44,919 Speaker 1: particular text. So yeah, I should have I should have 117 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 1: broken and bought a new ebook of it. I actually 118 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 1: have a physical copy of it as well, and I 119 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,359 Speaker 1: toyed with just switching over to the physical copy, but 120 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: I can't control the size of the text on that, 121 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: so I kind of kind of spoiled by my Kindle. 122 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 2: So this old one, You're like, it would be like 123 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 2: waiting on the developers to release a patch for the 124 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 2: et game for the Atari. 125 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, like this is clearly not the supported copy anymore, 126 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 1: so or maybe I have something wrong in my settings. 127 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 1: I'm not sure. 128 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 2: Okay, Well, one thing that I guess ties more into 129 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 2: the history that we were talking about in the last 130 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 2: episode is the question of when did the idea of 131 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 2: a para for a paragraph come to symbolize more the 132 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 2: chunk of text itself between the breaks rather than the breaks, 133 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 2: because you know, the Originally the idea is that the 134 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 2: marker known as the paragraphs in Greek manuscripts was like 135 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 2: a marginal notation that signaled some kind of transition within 136 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 2: the text. It was it was written out beside, and 137 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 2: then over time this morphs through many stages to become 138 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 2: line breaks and indentation. So when did we start talking 139 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 2: about paragraphs as the text between those breaks. Well, in 140 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 2: that article I'm in by Richard Hughes Gibson, Gibson points 141 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 2: to examples in texts in French and English around the 142 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:09,679 Speaker 2: thirteenth or fourteenth century that seemed to start making reference 143 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 2: to paragraphs as sub sections of text, saying things like 144 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 2: you know, you can skip this paragraph, or talking about 145 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 2: a text and saying, you know, refer to this paragraph. 146 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 2: But it seems to be roughly around the late seventeenth 147 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 2: or early eighteenth century that the more modern definition of 148 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 2: a paragraph as the passage of text between the line 149 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:34,320 Speaker 2: breaks and indentation emerges as dominant, and Gibson points to 150 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 2: a seventeen o six new edition of The New World 151 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 2: of English Words, which defines a paragraph as quote a 152 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 2: portion of matter, of discourse or treatise contained between two breaks, 153 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 2: i e. Which begins with a new line and ends 154 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 2: where the line breaks off. So by around that time 155 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 2: you've got people talking about paragraphs, and they are the 156 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 2: paragraphs that we have today. It's a chunk of texts 157 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 2: between line breaks. But this leads to another question, which 158 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 2: is the question of paragraph theory. What actually makes a paragraph? 159 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 2: Surely people who study language and writing must have come 160 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 2: up with ideas of Okay, you know, you go out 161 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 2: and look at paragraphs and books. What are the things 162 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 2: that paragraphs have in common? How do authors decide where 163 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 2: to break the line? And this question is not nearly 164 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 2: as easy to answer as you might assume, especially because 165 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 2: you know this is not the only thing like this 166 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 2: in the world. But it's one case where there's sort 167 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 2: of a formal definition that you will find taught in 168 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 2: school and that you will find in a lot of 169 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 2: textbooks that does not at all seem to describe what 170 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 2: happens just out in the world. And the difference here 171 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 2: is that you've got all kinds of prescriptive definitions of 172 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:53,439 Speaker 2: the paragraph, often saying that a paragraph sort of explores 173 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 2: a central idea or a topic. And we'll get to 174 00:09:56,760 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 2: one major proponent of this idea in just a bit. 175 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 2: But one person that Gibson points to in his essay 176 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 2: is a poet and art critic named Herbert Reid, who 177 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 2: wrote a nineteen twenty eight book on English prose style, 178 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 2: and Gibson writes about read quote taking up his nearly 179 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 2: century old book one recognizes a peculiar tradition in which 180 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:23,200 Speaker 2: one textbook after another, one generation after another, has promoted 181 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:27,560 Speaker 2: a blueprint for paragraph construction conspicuously at odds with the 182 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:32,440 Speaker 2: prose of the most highly acclaimed stylists of the English language. So, 183 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 2: in other words, there's a conflict between how paragraphs are 184 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 2: theorized in textbooks and taught in schools and how they're 185 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 2: actually used by writers, especially the most popular writers in 186 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 2: a culture. Good writers do not usually write comp one 187 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 2: oh one style essays with clear topic sentences and one 188 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 2: central idea per paragraph. How often do you come across 189 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:57,959 Speaker 2: that in a book you actually like to read? 190 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 1: Yeah? Not often? And you know, in fact, I was 191 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 1: for the last episode and for this episode, I did 192 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 1: a lot of looking around, thinking, well, I should be 193 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 1: able to find some perfect paragraphs out there in books 194 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:14,680 Speaker 1: that I love and books that I admire. And it's 195 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 1: really hard because if you go into it thinking about 196 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 1: paragraphs and perhaps having at least this shadow of of 197 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 1: this school book, this textbook paragraph in your mind, you 198 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:28,679 Speaker 1: find all sorts of things that don't really fit that form. 199 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:31,559 Speaker 2: Absolutely. So you look at your favorite books, you are 200 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 2: probably just not going to find too many paragraphs that 201 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 2: have a topic sentence and then supporting sentences developing that 202 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 2: topic idea, and then a line break when you were 203 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 2: done with that topic, moving on to the next thing. 204 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:44,719 Speaker 2: There are some reasons we can talk about where I 205 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 2: think it might make sense for composition classes to teach 206 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 2: it that way, But yeah, this is just not usually 207 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 2: what you're going to find out in the wild in 208 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 2: the books you like. And so we're back to the 209 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:59,319 Speaker 2: question again, like what actually causes those paragraph breaks to 210 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:01,679 Speaker 2: happen where they do. They're not random. If you were 211 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 2: to just rearrange them at random, it would probably produce 212 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 2: a less good and less cohesive text. And yet it's 213 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 2: very hard to actually come up with rules to explain 214 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 2: why they come in the places they do. 215 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:18,320 Speaker 1: I'll also say that I think that a very effective 216 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:21,959 Speaker 1: but standard, you know, sort of textbook paragraph is kind 217 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 1: of like a brick and a cathedral. The bricks are important, 218 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 1: and there are may be a lot of bricks in 219 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 1: there holding things together, but they're not the part you remember. 220 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 1: You remember the flying buttresses, you remember the gargoyles in 221 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:37,360 Speaker 1: the in the stained glass windows and the and things 222 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:40,959 Speaker 1: of that nature. And so the parts of a text, 223 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 1: and in fact, the paragraphs of a text, they probably 224 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 1: stand out the most to us are the ones that 225 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 1: are weird, that are you know, big run on sentences 226 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 1: or short little fragments that have a lot of weird 227 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 1: things going on in them, like those are those are 228 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 1: the things that catch our eye. Those are the ones 229 00:12:57,160 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 1: we remember. 230 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:00,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's right. And I think even by 231 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 2: looking at some of the more prescriptive paragraph theorists, even 232 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 2: if their prescriptive definitions of paragraphs don't really describe what 233 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:13,479 Speaker 2: you see in the world, they do make some observations 234 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:15,720 Speaker 2: that are useful. And one thing that's stuck with me 235 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:19,960 Speaker 2: here is that in Gibson's article, he cites an American 236 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 2: lawyer and grammarian named Lindley Murray, who in seventeen ninety 237 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 2: five wrote a book on English grammar called English Grammar, 238 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 2: which makes some recommendations on how a composition should be 239 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 2: divided into paragraphs, and literally writes that ideally a paragraph 240 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 2: is about a single subject. Each subject should get its 241 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 2: own paragraph, unless subjects are very short. Subjects that are 242 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 2: very long should be divided into multiple paragraphs or getting 243 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 2: into some vagueness about exactly what is very short or 244 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 2: very long here, And who know, people in seventeen ninety 245 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:54,559 Speaker 2: five might have had more tolerance for very long paragraphs. 246 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 2: I'm not sure about that, but that seems possible based 247 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:01,439 Speaker 2: on the text I've surveyed. One thing Linley Murray says 248 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 2: that I do think is still true is that you 249 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 2: should often try to place the paragraph breaks quote at 250 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 2: sentiments of the most weight or that call for particular attention. 251 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:18,319 Speaker 2: So when you have to divide subjects across multiple paragraphs, 252 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 2: you are looking for places to place the paragraph breaks 253 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 2: that will call attention to the sentences directly before or after. 254 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 2: And so it's interesting that Murray senses what Gibson in 255 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 2: his essay describes as these quote hot spots places in 256 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 2: the text, typically occurring near paragraph breaks, where the power 257 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 2: of the words increases or is emphasized. Paragraph breaks tend 258 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 2: to draw attention to the words right before and after them. 259 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 1: This is a great idea, of course, because as a writer, 260 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 1: you want the reader to keep reading, and this kind 261 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 1: of works like an arrow pointing from one chunk of 262 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 1: text to the next, almost like connecting one tile in 263 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 1: a board game to the following tile. You know where 264 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 1: to go, and you want to go. 265 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 2: There, Yes, And I think at this time it's also 266 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 2: already recognized that paragraph length plays an important role, not 267 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 2: just in organizing the contents of a piece of writing, 268 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 2: but also in sort of managing the energy and attention 269 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 2: of the reader. Because again, if paragraphs are too short, 270 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 2: the text starts to feel frivolous or insubstantial, and if 271 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 2: paragraphs are too long, the text starts to feel tedious 272 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 2: and overtaxing. And so balancing paragraph length serves the function 273 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 2: of not losing the reader. But okay, it's time to 274 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 2: talk about Alexander Bain, because when you get into paragraph theory, 275 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 2: this is a name that is cited, and essentially every 276 00:15:56,200 --> 00:16:00,040 Speaker 2: piece of writing on this subject Alexander Baine is the 277 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 2: King of paragraph theory. So he was a professor in 278 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:07,320 Speaker 2: the nineteenth century in Scotland. He was he was the 279 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 2: chair of Logic and the chair of English Literature at 280 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 2: the University of Aberdeen. I think he was given those 281 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 2: posts in eighteen sixty one and he he was one 282 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 2: of those people at the time who just had like 283 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 2: a poker and a number of different fires. So I 284 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 2: think he was also influential in the early development of psychology, yeah, 285 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 2: but also logic and also English literature. So he became 286 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 2: a teacher of composition at Aberdeen and ended up writing 287 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 2: his own text book for his classes that was called 288 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 2: English Composition in Rhetoric am Manuel. This was published in 289 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 2: the eighteen sixties. It contained what a scholar called Paul 290 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 2: Rogers called the first systematic formulation of paragraph theory. And 291 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 2: if you ever took a comp one oh one class, 292 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 2: you will probably recognize Bain's idea. Bain's primary concern with 293 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 2: paragraphs was unity, that each paragraph should have what's called 294 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:07,920 Speaker 2: unity of purpose. It's doing one main thing. And he 295 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 2: had like six rules about paragraphs. They are things like, 296 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 2: first rule, the bearing of each sentence upon what procedes 297 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 2: shall be explicit and unmistakable. Two, when several consecutive sentences 298 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 2: iterate or illustrate the same idea, they should, so far 299 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:27,240 Speaker 2: as possible, be formed alike. And then three, here's the 300 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:31,399 Speaker 2: big one. The opening sentence, unless so constructed as to 301 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:35,679 Speaker 2: be obviously preparatory, is expected to indicate with prominence the 302 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 2: subject of the paragraph. And here it is this is 303 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 2: your topic sentence rule number three. So, for Alexander Bain, 304 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 2: each paragraph in a composition should exhaust a single subject, 305 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:50,160 Speaker 2: and the paragraph should begin with a succinct statement of 306 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:52,679 Speaker 2: that subject, which is then to be developed in the 307 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:56,199 Speaker 2: following sentences. Don't you just thrill with the love of 308 00:17:56,240 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 2: the English language. But Bain's ideas did prove very influential, and, 309 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,919 Speaker 2: according to Gibson, at least one half of the modern 310 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 2: discourse on paragraph theory still basically derives from Bain. Gibson writes, 311 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 2: citing another rhetorician named Mike Duncan, that there are two 312 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 2: major schools of thought in paragraph theory. You got prescriptivists 313 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:23,680 Speaker 2: and descriptivists. Paragraph prescriptivists usually say something like the paragraph 314 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 2: is an ideal structure with an ideal form it's based 315 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:29,639 Speaker 2: on unity of purpose. Like Bain said, it should be 316 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 2: about one thing, and it should cover that one thing, 317 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:37,400 Speaker 2: and that form, that ideal form can be emulated by 318 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:43,200 Speaker 2: students to practice their writing. Meanwhile, paragraph descriptivists would have 319 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:47,440 Speaker 2: what Gibson calls quote a looser inductive approach to instruction, 320 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 2: with Bain style rules limited to suggesting a structural ideal 321 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:55,919 Speaker 2: that is only rarely seen and thinking about it. I 322 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:58,960 Speaker 2: can see how there are advantages to teaching writing with 323 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 2: each of the approaches. So the descriptive school, to my mind, 324 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:07,160 Speaker 2: saying yeah, paragraphs don't usually work that way is more honest. 325 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:10,680 Speaker 2: It is more honest about how paragraphs are actually formed 326 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:14,240 Speaker 2: in popular writing, but it's also a lot harder to teach. 327 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 2: I mean, if the truth is that a paragraph can 328 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:18,719 Speaker 2: be anything you want it to be as long as 329 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 2: it works, as long as it makes sense and feels 330 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:25,359 Speaker 2: good to the reader, that is a true statement. But 331 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 2: a student probably doesn't know how to create a paragraph 332 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 2: that works unless they're just naturally talented. So this is 333 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:36,159 Speaker 2: just not very helpful advice. So incomes the prescriptive model. 334 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 2: It doesn't usually describe most of the paragraphs you'll find 335 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 2: in books you like and articles you like. But it 336 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:46,639 Speaker 2: is actually something that can be taught and has a 337 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 2: utility in creating a structure that students can use to 338 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,639 Speaker 2: organize their thoughts and make them clear. So it is 339 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 2: better than nothing. It is better than not being able 340 00:19:56,600 --> 00:20:00,119 Speaker 2: to write anything coherent at all. But then again, if 341 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 2: you learn composition on the basis of the prescriptivist thought 342 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 2: and you're writing Alexander Bain style paragraphs with topic sentences, 343 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 2: the classic five paragraph essay for a school class, I 344 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 2: wonder does that constrict the development of your writing skill 345 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:18,480 Speaker 2: in the domain of organic paragraphs. 346 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:20,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. It certainly makes me think of 347 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 1: the old standard that you need to learn the rules 348 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 1: before you break the rules you need. It's better to 349 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:32,400 Speaker 1: start with this rule based system and then move out 350 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:35,880 Speaker 1: from that so you'll have, you know, somewhere to go 351 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:39,639 Speaker 1: and somewhere to sort of look back to. So I 352 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:44,359 Speaker 1: can see the I certainly see the appeal of valuing 353 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:46,160 Speaker 1: both approaches to the paragraph. 354 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:48,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I can agree with that, and I 355 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 2: guess I was sort of already getting at this. But 356 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 2: to make it more clear, I wonder if this is 357 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:56,239 Speaker 2: just one of those things that is a product of 358 00:20:56,480 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 2: necessity stemming from the realities of teaching. Like there's no 359 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 2: systematic way to teach a student to be a great 360 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 2: prose stylist, to just you know, to write great organic 361 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,760 Speaker 2: paragraphs that people love to read. Like, what would you 362 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 2: tell them to do? It's no use this word here, 363 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 2: and you know, like you probably just can't really teach 364 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 2: that unless you're gonna stick with them their entire life 365 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:24,439 Speaker 2: and just be really intensive. But you probably can, in 366 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,480 Speaker 2: the course of a semester, help teach a student to 367 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 2: better organize their thoughts more clearly with a structure like 368 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 2: the five paragraph essay that has paragraphs with topic sentences 369 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 2: that are each about a single subject. So I think 370 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:42,720 Speaker 2: taking a student from incoherent in writing to reasonably clear 371 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:47,520 Speaker 2: five paragraph essay with Bain style conventions, that's doable. Teaching 372 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 2: someone to write wonderful organic paragraphs is much more challenging. 373 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:55,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, And this is something that's going to be a 374 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:57,679 Speaker 1: no brainer to any teachers out there, and certainly to 375 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 1: any parents of children who are are still learning how 376 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 1: to write. I mean, I've my son's been doing pretty well, 377 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 1: but but I mean I've seen some real dogs of 378 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 1: paragraphs when it comes to to putting things together, because 379 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 1: you know, I have to remind myself. I've had to 380 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:16,480 Speaker 1: remind myself in these times. It's like, yeah, he he 381 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:19,199 Speaker 1: may he reads a lot and he's he gets to 382 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 1: see a lot of well constructed paragraphs and paragraphs that 383 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 1: are definitely doing their job within narrative works and so forth. 384 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,920 Speaker 1: But you've got to start somewhere. You've got to have 385 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 1: like some sort of basic form in mind, especially when 386 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:35,160 Speaker 1: you're doing these very you know, wrote sort of assignments 387 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 1: where it's all about constructing, stretching the sentences, forming those 388 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:42,639 Speaker 1: sentences into paragraphs, and having you know, X number of 389 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 1: paragraphs to illustrate a basic concept. 390 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,160 Speaker 2: Yes, and in the defense of the five paragraph essay 391 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 2: and and the Alexander Baynes style paragraph, uh, I would 392 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 2: say that's useful for more than just producing a piece 393 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:57,679 Speaker 2: of writing somebody would actually want to read. It is 394 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:01,719 Speaker 2: useful for practicing organizing your own thoughts. I know I've 395 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,919 Speaker 2: said on the podcast before that I often feel like 396 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 2: I don't really understand what I think about an issue 397 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:10,879 Speaker 2: often until I try to write about it. Writing is 398 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 2: the process by which I realize which of my intuitions 399 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 2: I do think are true and make sense, and which 400 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 2: ones are not and I should just abandon It's writing 401 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,360 Speaker 2: for me is very much a process of figuring out 402 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 2: what I really think and organizing those thoughts into a 403 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:28,879 Speaker 2: structure that makes sense. 404 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, I certainly agree with that. Oftentimes find myself 405 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:36,679 Speaker 1: in a situation where I have to write about a topic. 406 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 1: My thoughts on the topic or just the general knowledge 407 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 1: about that topic is kind of all over the place. 408 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 1: But you got to start somewhere, And so just that 409 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 1: first sentence, that first paragraph, that opening paragraph of a work, 410 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:52,359 Speaker 1: even if it's not the lead paragraph, you end up 411 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,880 Speaker 1: sticking with. Like that is often for me, Like that's 412 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,400 Speaker 1: kind of like staking a place in the ground. That's 413 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 1: like where you begin to to actually trace out where 414 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: you're going to build the rest of the thing. 415 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, you remember, a long time ago, we did an 416 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:10,439 Speaker 2: episode that I think back on fairly often about the 417 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:16,200 Speaker 2: illusion of explanatory depth, the psychology concept where you can 418 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:20,119 Speaker 2: think you understand how something works, but you actually don't 419 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:24,480 Speaker 2: until you are forced to try to explain it. Easy 420 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:27,120 Speaker 2: example for this is do you know how to draw 421 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 2: a bicycle with all the parts? And everybody thinks they do, 422 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:33,680 Speaker 2: but you actually try to draw one, and like, I 423 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:35,480 Speaker 2: don't know what the percentage of people is, but a 424 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 2: huge percentage of people actually they draw a bicycle that 425 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 2: could not work, like they don't actually know what parts 426 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,640 Speaker 2: connect to what and everything. And the same is true 427 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:47,240 Speaker 2: for like a toilet tank or other things that we 428 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:49,879 Speaker 2: just think we understand how they work until we have 429 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 2: to get explicit and into the details about it. And 430 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:56,159 Speaker 2: writing can be an exercise like that, Like trying to 431 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,440 Speaker 2: draw the bicycle, it helps you realize what you thought 432 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 2: you understand or new, but don't. You don't actually, so 433 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 2: now you've got to go back and figure things. 434 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 1: Out right now. 435 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 2: I was thinking about another difference between the you know, 436 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:12,360 Speaker 2: the lovely organic paragraph that sort of moves on its 437 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:16,200 Speaker 2: own terms and you can't really say what exactly the 438 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 2: rules for its structure are, versus the Alexander bain style 439 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:24,199 Speaker 2: prescriptive topic sentence paragraph. And I think one difference is 440 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 2: simply that these are achieving different goals. One is style 441 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 2: and the other is clarity. And if, like a fiction book, 442 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 2: we're full of Baines style paragraphs, I think that would 443 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:40,159 Speaker 2: obviously become very tedious and unpleasant to read. So, of 444 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 2: course there's the idea that good prose stylists don't usually 445 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:46,359 Speaker 2: follow this format. And yet I can think of documents 446 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 2: where I would much rather have the document read in 447 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,960 Speaker 2: an Alexander Bain style instead of having you know, sort 448 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:57,919 Speaker 2: of more loosey goosey organic paragraphs. And examples would be 449 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 2: things like an article in a science journal or a 450 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:04,199 Speaker 2: medical article, or a legal document, or a list of 451 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 2: instructions for building something, basically anywhere that clarity and logical 452 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:14,720 Speaker 2: organization are more important than style and energy and pleasure 453 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 2: of reading. I think that the ban style structure is 454 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:18,920 Speaker 2: a good approach. 455 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, this is an interesting point, and it made 456 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 1: me think of how I use a lot of texts 457 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,440 Speaker 1: for work and for research, because I think an interesting 458 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: aspect of the text to think about here is skimmability 459 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:35,359 Speaker 1: for texts that are not expressly for pleasure. You know, certainly, 460 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 1: if it's something I'm using for research purposes. In some cases, 461 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,880 Speaker 1: I read the entire book, you know, I've covered to cover. 462 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,440 Speaker 1: Other times, I'm in there to get specific things from 463 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,159 Speaker 1: that author. I know there's specific topics, or it's a 464 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 1: specific part of a study that I'm interested in, and 465 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:57,160 Speaker 1: for that yeah, breaks in paragraph structure are pretty important 466 00:26:57,400 --> 00:26:59,679 Speaker 1: because I need to be able to move around in 467 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 1: that I'm not going to eat at all. I need 468 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 1: to be able to pick out the things I want, 469 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 1: and so it helps if those morsels are separated from 470 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:09,439 Speaker 1: each other on the platter. 471 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 2: I think there are also these are the kind of 472 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 2: documents that in many cases would benefit from being removed 473 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 2: from the flowing prose style altogether and just become lists 474 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 2: of bullet points. 475 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:23,919 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean you see this as instructions, right, 476 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 1: as simply guidelines and whatnot. They're generally not going to 477 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:32,439 Speaker 1: be arranged in multi paragraph form. It's going to be 478 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 1: bullet points in numbers and also illustrations and so forth. 479 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:37,720 Speaker 1: But you do find this with recipes, I guess. But 480 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:39,920 Speaker 1: even then you'll have numbers or bullet points in there 481 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,720 Speaker 1: as well, so you can easily skip from this paragraph 482 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 1: to this paragraph. So it's very clear on which step am. 483 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 2: I on totally. I mean, I love organic flowing pros, 484 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:50,880 Speaker 2: but I don't want it in a recipe. 485 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 1: But you will get it in your recipe on every 486 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 1: recipe blog out there. And I think you often hear 487 00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 1: people grive about this, and I think it's because of 488 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 1: that collision of two things. You'll often have an organic, 489 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:08,359 Speaker 1: organic paragraphs forming this this conversational blog post about a 490 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 1: particular recipe about a particular drink or food culture, whatever 491 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 1: it happens to be. But then this article also contains 492 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 1: the recipe, a thing that is very much a situation 493 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 1: where you want to go in, get what you need, 494 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 1: jump in at the right step, and get out again. 495 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 1: And if you're hit with both styles, I mean, that 496 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 1: can be a little bit jarring. 497 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, especially if it's not so I was going to 498 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:35,920 Speaker 2: qualify what I said with like, oh, okay, I can understand, 499 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 2: you know, sort of a thing that's two parts. It's 500 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 2: like the recipe as a list of instruct clear instructions 501 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 2: with bullet points, and then above that like an article 502 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:48,719 Speaker 2: that explains in more detail. But it does get frustrating, 503 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 2: like if it's not clear at first glance whether you 504 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 2: need to read the article or not in order to 505 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 2: make the recipe, You're like, am I going to be 506 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 2: missing something if I don't read all this text right? 507 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 1: And one of the problems I think with with blog 508 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 1: posts is it comes down to formatting. Because if you 509 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 1: have a really good book, like I have a few 510 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 1: different books on cocktails, and those are often nice because 511 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,960 Speaker 1: they're very well formatted and you can easily see where 512 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 1: is the cocktail recipe and where is the you know, 513 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 1: the article, where's the prose about this cocktail or the 514 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 1: history of the cocktail, et cetera. But if you're dealing 515 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 1: with a blog format, I mean, there are some great 516 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 1: blog templates out there, but you don't always have that 517 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 1: much freedom, and you're often left doing something that is 518 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 1: a little morelike blog post at the top, recipe at 519 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:38,480 Speaker 1: the bottom, or worse, I guess, is something where there 520 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 1: is no distinction, where the recipe is just immersed within 521 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 1: the more pros based blog post. 522 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 2: So, in thinking about paragraphs and organization of pieces of writing, 523 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 2: I was looking at an interesting article called the Music 524 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:07,960 Speaker 2: of Form, Rethinking Organization and Writing by Peter Elbow, which 525 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 2: was published in College Composition and Communication in two thousand 526 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 2: and six. And the main thing I wanted to mention 527 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:18,720 Speaker 2: from this Most of this essay is about Elbow talking 528 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 2: about possibly thinking of writing as analogous to music and 529 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 2: having music style organizational techniques. But I want to start 530 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 2: with this metaphor. So Elbow describes a painting. He uses 531 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 2: the example of Edward Hopper's Night Hawks and says, you know, okay, 532 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,160 Speaker 2: we're humans. We're able to stand several feet back from 533 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 2: this painting and see it as a whole. Right, you 534 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 2: can just look at it. You can see the whole thing, 535 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,719 Speaker 2: and you can understand it as a composition of different 536 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 2: parts that emerges from how they all come together at once. 537 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 2: But then he says, okay, now take the same painting 538 00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 2: and imagine instead that you are an ant. You can 539 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:02,800 Speaker 2: only look at the painting a little bit at a 540 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,720 Speaker 2: time by crawling over the surface of it, and thus 541 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:09,880 Speaker 2: your idea of the whole painting has to come together 542 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 2: a little bit at a time and involves your use 543 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 2: of memory of what parts you previously looked at, and 544 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 2: probably also some imagination of what parts you haven't looked 545 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:24,200 Speaker 2: at yet. And then Elbow writes quote, when we read 546 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 2: a text, we are like the ant. The text is 547 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:31,080 Speaker 2: laid out in space across multiple pages, but we can 548 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 2: only read one small part at a time. We may 549 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 2: jump around the text Grasshopper like, especially with long texts, 550 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,960 Speaker 2: looking at chapter titles and other headings, browsing the openings 551 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 2: and closings of chapters looking for quote perspective. Some texts 552 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 2: lead off with an abstract, as this journal now asks. 553 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 2: Books have tables of contents, but still we can take 554 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 2: in relatively few words at a time. So here's my question. 555 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 2: If texts are spatial phenomena, and yet our experience of 556 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 2: them is necessarily tim porrel, how can we best organize 557 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:10,200 Speaker 2: texts for readers? How could we organize paintings for ants? 558 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:13,280 Speaker 1: This is great. I love this way of thinking about it, 559 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 1: the ant crawling over the painting, trying to form this 560 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:18,360 Speaker 1: idea of what the painting looks like. And I think 561 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 1: that gets down to one of the problems of thinking, Oh, 562 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:22,720 Speaker 1: I'm going to find that great paragraph in that book. 563 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:26,239 Speaker 1: I love because no paragraph, for the most part. There 564 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 1: may be some exceptions, and maybe I can think of 565 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,320 Speaker 1: one or two, but they're so rare. For the most part, 566 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:36,600 Speaker 1: the paragraph, any given paragraph, is not a miniaturization of 567 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 1: the larger work, and cannot properly convey the idea of 568 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:41,840 Speaker 1: the larger work. Right. 569 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,520 Speaker 2: I thought this metaphor was so interesting because it's true, 570 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 2: and that, like a lot of the stuff people do, 571 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:52,520 Speaker 2: you like. Conventions of writing, like the Alexander Baynes style 572 00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 2: paragraph or the five paragraph essay and a composition class 573 00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 2: are designed to give you a structure that would help 574 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:03,880 Speaker 2: an ant understand what the whole painting is even after 575 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:06,160 Speaker 2: even while they're only you know, crawling over a bit 576 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 2: of it at a time, because it's so familiar. You 577 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 2: know what the structure is, you know where you are 578 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:13,760 Speaker 2: within it at any given time, you know roughly what 579 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:15,960 Speaker 2: the whole thing's going to look like, and that that 580 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:20,680 Speaker 2: type of mapping or sign posting does provide some some 581 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:23,719 Speaker 2: perspective to you know, the ant crawling over the painting 582 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 2: or the human being reading a text. And yet they 583 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 2: come with disadvantages, and Elbow identifies a number of them, 584 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 2: but one he talks about is the idea of energy. 585 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 2: Like that a text with good organic paragraphs that are 586 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 2: not organized in such a you know, mapped out and 587 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 2: signposted way, they tend to have more more power to 588 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,160 Speaker 2: pull you along and make you want to keep reading 589 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,960 Speaker 2: and feel more like music, have those kind of interesting 590 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:54,600 Speaker 2: little melodies and themes that recur. He calls this other style, 591 00:33:54,720 --> 00:34:00,280 Speaker 2: you know, the non signposted style, dynamic organization. And one 592 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 2: interesting comparison that he makes is that his dynamic organization 593 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,439 Speaker 2: can have not just style advantages. It's not just more 594 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 2: interesting and pleasant to read kind of organic paragraphs that 595 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:17,120 Speaker 2: are not so signposted. It can have a revelatory power 596 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:19,960 Speaker 2: of its own. It can actually show you things that 597 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:24,799 Speaker 2: a well mapped, signposted paragraph or essay cannot. And the 598 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 2: example he uses is a comparison to platonic dialogues. This 599 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 2: comes from an author named Burke writing about Plato's dialogue 600 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:38,319 Speaker 2: the Phadrus, and Burke writes the following quote for a 601 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,800 Speaker 2: platonic dialogue is not formed simply by breaking an idea 602 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,799 Speaker 2: into its component parts and taking them up in a 603 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:49,600 Speaker 2: one two three order, the purely scholastic aspect. In Aristotle's 604 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 2: method of exposition, a platonic dialogue is rather a process 605 00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:58,840 Speaker 2: of transformation, whereby the position at the end transcends the 606 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,520 Speaker 2: position at the start, so that the position at the 607 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,359 Speaker 2: start can eventually be seen in terms of the new 608 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 2: motivation encountered on route. And I think that that's a 609 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:12,760 Speaker 2: great point of comparison, because a lot of good writing 610 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:18,239 Speaker 2: has the quality of following the author's thoughts, so we're 611 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:26,080 Speaker 2: not just seeing like a presentation of pre approved informational tidbits, 612 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:29,800 Speaker 2: you know, arranged into paragraph form, but we are actually 613 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:34,120 Speaker 2: discovered the author is showing us something about how they 614 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:37,799 Speaker 2: come to an idea, they get from here to there. 615 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 2: They're taking us along the way with them, and that 616 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:45,520 Speaker 2: can be just as enlightening as a clearly organized list 617 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:46,720 Speaker 2: of conclusions. 618 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:49,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, and of course the style is going to inform 619 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:52,759 Speaker 1: so much of how you understand the inner workings of 620 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,080 Speaker 1: an author's mind and how you connect with it. Like, 621 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:59,440 Speaker 1: for instance, Borges is going to have a totally different 622 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:03,439 Speaker 1: feel for his paragraphs compared to Hunter S. Thompson. One. 623 00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:06,360 Speaker 1: With Thompson's paragraphs, there's more of this sort of crackling 624 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:10,120 Speaker 1: live wire intensity to them, directing one thought to the next, 625 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:12,960 Speaker 1: whereas Borjes is gonna he's gonna take his time, and 626 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 1: he's it's more like a like like a like a 627 00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:20,480 Speaker 1: vapor drifting through a wing of a library. Uh and 628 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:22,719 Speaker 1: uh and and so they're they're totally different experiences, and 629 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:26,239 Speaker 1: they're giving you a snapshot into the way connections are 630 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:27,520 Speaker 1: forming in the author's minds. 631 00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:30,440 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, sure, I mean, I guess I've mainly now 632 00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:33,359 Speaker 2: been thinking about nonfiction writing, but you get into fiction, Yeah, 633 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:37,080 Speaker 2: that's a totally different ballgame. Also, But anyway, a lot 634 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:39,640 Speaker 2: of this essay seems to play on this metaphor of 635 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:43,080 Speaker 2: music and how you could think about UH writing as 636 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:45,680 Speaker 2: as analogous to music in various ways, and how that 637 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:50,360 Speaker 2: also helps you think about compromises between the the highly organized, 638 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:53,959 Speaker 2: sign posted structure of like the five paragraph essay versus 639 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:57,960 Speaker 2: the dynamic organization of the organic paragraph, and how you 640 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,440 Speaker 2: can you can blend them together to to to have 641 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:01,520 Speaker 2: maximum effect. 642 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:05,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's this great bit from Elbow and I read 643 00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:08,680 Speaker 1: here quote whole texts need larger global pieces of energy. 644 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 1: It's not enough if paragraphs or sections hold together and 645 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:13,680 Speaker 1: pull us through from one to another. We also need 646 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:16,520 Speaker 1: a sense of the whole as whole, a matter that 647 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,680 Speaker 1: Williams treats. But very briefly, this energy comes from the 648 00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:23,880 Speaker 1: same forces that hold music together, sequences of expectation and 649 00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:29,360 Speaker 1: eventual satisfaction, larger melodic or harmonic rhythms, or examples of 650 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,279 Speaker 1: what I am calling the music of form. So yeah, 651 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:35,279 Speaker 1: this interests me because the author here mentions the use 652 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:38,360 Speaker 1: of story thinking at times, and this brought to mind 653 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:42,880 Speaker 1: the formulate nature of most storytelling and fiction weaving endeavors. 654 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:45,480 Speaker 1: You know, certain structures are going to be followed, certain 655 00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,120 Speaker 1: tropes are going to be invoked, and this does present 656 00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:52,080 Speaker 1: a kind of form that pulls us along. For instance, 657 00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:54,320 Speaker 1: many of the movies we discussed on Weird House Cinema 658 00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:58,600 Speaker 1: follow very expected structures and invoke expected elements, And while 659 00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:02,920 Speaker 1: this certainly can make a movie doing experience feel too formulaic, 660 00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:06,440 Speaker 1: in some cases, it can also provide the necessary pull. 661 00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:08,960 Speaker 1: The genre trappings can often serve as a kind of 662 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,719 Speaker 1: airport conveyor belt that makes it easier to move through 663 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:16,000 Speaker 1: the work. You put up with the humdrum human interactions 664 00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:19,719 Speaker 1: because you know that genre it demands that some of 665 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:21,680 Speaker 1: these humans are about to be eaten by a monster 666 00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:24,080 Speaker 1: or knifed in the back by a slash, or whatever 667 00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:27,320 Speaker 1: the case may be, and that may be the aspect 668 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:31,960 Speaker 1: you're far more interested in. Also playing into the idea 669 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:34,160 Speaker 1: of expectation in music, I mean this brings me back 670 00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:37,080 Speaker 1: to some of our past discussions of music, that it's 671 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:42,200 Speaker 1: not only about expectations being met, but expectations being subverted. 672 00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:44,560 Speaker 1: So you think that the next note is going to 673 00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:46,160 Speaker 1: do this, but then it does that, and that's what 674 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:48,400 Speaker 1: makes it fabulous, And that too, is one of the 675 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:51,799 Speaker 1: great things in film, but also in writing, like it's 676 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:54,879 Speaker 1: the beat that you think is coming, the rhyme that 677 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:56,759 Speaker 1: you think is coming, or whatever the case may be, 678 00:38:57,200 --> 00:38:59,920 Speaker 1: it ends up being something else instead. And if you 679 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,120 Speaker 1: if you tease it apart and tear it apart, that 680 00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:05,960 Speaker 1: may seem more mundane, but in the actual experience of 681 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:08,760 Speaker 1: the thing it can be it can just give you chills. 682 00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that that is one way in 683 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,400 Speaker 2: which reading and music are very similar. I mean elbows 684 00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:17,520 Speaker 2: correct that you know, you can only sort of experience 685 00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:20,080 Speaker 2: them in a linear way, like one moment at a time. 686 00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:22,480 Speaker 2: You can't hear a whole piece of music at once 687 00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:24,920 Speaker 2: or read a whole piece of writing at once. And 688 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:28,480 Speaker 2: so it's that process of having to go through one 689 00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:31,279 Speaker 2: bit at a time in a linear way that makes 690 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:36,880 Speaker 2: these prediction subversion patterns so important. It's something about creating 691 00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:38,920 Speaker 2: a great piece of music or a great piece of 692 00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:42,839 Speaker 2: writing has to do with finding the right balance of 693 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:47,560 Speaker 2: meeting expectations and then subverting expectations. 694 00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:50,080 Speaker 1: Like just just to come back to to to be 695 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:54,920 Speaker 1: movies for a second, Like sometimes the subversion that works 696 00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:58,160 Speaker 1: is accidental. Sometimes it's the fact that the monster jumps 697 00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:01,840 Speaker 1: out and doesn't look right. That looked like the effect 698 00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:05,000 Speaker 1: doesn't work like that is not the subversion that the 699 00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:09,880 Speaker 1: filmmakers were going for. If left of their own devices 700 00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:11,480 Speaker 1: and being if they were able to achieve everything they 701 00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:14,359 Speaker 1: wanted to achieve, it may have not. The finished work 702 00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:16,200 Speaker 1: may not have been that different from the works that 703 00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:21,960 Speaker 1: inspired it. But sometimes just an error in style or 704 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:25,520 Speaker 1: a weirdness of effect can subvert expectations in a way 705 00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:29,719 Speaker 1: that makes it memorable. Like Jason takes Manhattan when the 706 00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:33,160 Speaker 1: mask finally comes off and he looks a little little weird, 707 00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:37,160 Speaker 1: a little arly. Yeah, like that, that's memorable because that's 708 00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:40,480 Speaker 1: not really what you were expecting based on previous experiences 709 00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:43,960 Speaker 1: with the form, with the with the Jason movie, and 710 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:46,279 Speaker 1: what an unmasking has previously been. 711 00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:48,759 Speaker 2: I don't think they made him cute on purpose. I 712 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:53,000 Speaker 2: think that was a that was a felicitous accident. Yeah, Rob, 713 00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:55,120 Speaker 2: did you tell me before we started recording that you 714 00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:57,319 Speaker 2: found a book with no paragraph breaks in it? 715 00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:01,719 Speaker 1: Yes? Yes, this morning, in fact, I was looking around 716 00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:04,600 Speaker 1: on my bookshelf and I was asking myself, Okay, which 717 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:06,480 Speaker 1: of these has some great paragraphs? And it's got to 718 00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:09,680 Speaker 1: be another great paragraph, another great intro paragraph, and I 719 00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:13,799 Speaker 1: did find a nice intro paragraph in another Alan Robe 720 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:16,799 Speaker 1: Grulet book. But I also realized, oh, I do own 721 00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:20,759 Speaker 1: a book that has I think no paragraph breaks in 722 00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:26,080 Speaker 1: the text itself, and it achieves this through It's kind 723 00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:28,279 Speaker 1: of cheating, I guess. But it is a book you 724 00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:31,239 Speaker 1: might be familiar with, Joe. It's titled one hundred and 725 00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:38,320 Speaker 1: four Stories by Thomas Bernard, the Voice Imitator. So Thomas 726 00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:41,960 Speaker 1: Bernard in this book is writing short shorts. These are 727 00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:46,120 Speaker 1: very short stories. They are all, as far as I 728 00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:51,040 Speaker 1: can tell and remember, one paragraph long. The paragraphs range 729 00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:53,799 Speaker 1: and size. Some of them are rather lengthy paragraphs, some 730 00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:56,200 Speaker 1: of them are very short. But in every case I 731 00:41:56,200 --> 00:42:00,560 Speaker 1: believe the paragraph is the complete story. Therefore, there are 732 00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:05,319 Speaker 1: not really paragraph breaks within each work. Now, there are 733 00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:11,399 Speaker 1: certainly paragraph breaks between works, but each story itself has 734 00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:12,520 Speaker 1: no paragraph breaks. 735 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,080 Speaker 2: Okay, So you can look at this as a work 736 00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:19,560 Speaker 2: with no paragraph breaks or work with extreme paragraph breaks 737 00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:21,640 Speaker 2: where every break is the end of the text. 738 00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:24,680 Speaker 1: I guess, yeah. Like, just to give an example, this 739 00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:27,000 Speaker 1: is certainly a book worth picking up if anyone out 740 00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:29,879 Speaker 1: there is interested in short shorts as a form, which 741 00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:33,160 Speaker 1: I do find quite fascinating because at times, especially when 742 00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:35,759 Speaker 1: I'm getting into Borges, I keep thinking, well, it's the 743 00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:37,880 Speaker 1: shorter works that are really the ones that resonate with 744 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:40,080 Speaker 1: me the most. You know, some sort of like Philip K. 745 00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:43,560 Speaker 1: Dick's story that just is about a little idea, and 746 00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:45,480 Speaker 1: so this is kind of the extreme form of it. 747 00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:48,520 Speaker 1: But for example, there is a story in here titled 748 00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:54,200 Speaker 1: Hotel Vauldhaus, and this is the complete story one paragraph. 749 00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:56,680 Speaker 1: We had no luck with the weather, and the guests 750 00:42:56,719 --> 00:43:00,560 Speaker 1: at our table were repellent in every respect, been spoiled, 751 00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:03,080 Speaker 1: niedts she for us. Even after they had had a 752 00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:05,520 Speaker 1: fatal car accident and had been laid out in the 753 00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:09,920 Speaker 1: church in Sills, we still hated them. Complete story. 754 00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:13,160 Speaker 2: Well, that reminds me. So there's another author I've been 755 00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:15,839 Speaker 2: reading recently who I love, who also has some very 756 00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:19,040 Speaker 2: short short stories named Lydia Davis. Do you know Lydia David? 757 00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:20,480 Speaker 1: I don't think I know that one though. Oh. 758 00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:24,960 Speaker 2: She writes a lot of like really great, excruciatingly observed 759 00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:30,120 Speaker 2: relationship stories that are just full of like horrible, grown 760 00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:34,120 Speaker 2: inducing details and dynamics, but they're wonderful. She's a great writer, 761 00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:36,360 Speaker 2: and she has a lot of single paragraph stories that 762 00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:37,640 Speaker 2: are really good nice. 763 00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:40,760 Speaker 1: So yeah, I guess it comes down to yea, depending 764 00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:42,279 Speaker 1: on how you shake it and depending on how you 765 00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:45,600 Speaker 1: discuss paragraphs. There are works out there that have no 766 00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:50,880 Speaker 1: paragraph breaks. But but yeah, the the extreme interpretation of 767 00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:53,600 Speaker 1: that would just be works I guess that are just 768 00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:59,440 Speaker 1: big vomit of just a big bolus of of work 769 00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:01,759 Speaker 1: of words, words and symbols, right, I mean it just 770 00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:06,920 Speaker 1: when you lose the form, you lose the message, Like 771 00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:10,280 Speaker 1: the format is part of the communication. Is just something 772 00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:12,720 Speaker 1: I keep coming back to and thinking about this topic. 773 00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:15,640 Speaker 2: Okay, So if somebody was teaching something you wrote in 774 00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:17,799 Speaker 2: a classroom, you wouldn't want you would not want them 775 00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:21,000 Speaker 2: to go in and insert paragraph breaks where you did 776 00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:21,640 Speaker 2: not have them. 777 00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:24,120 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know, I don't I would guess 778 00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:25,520 Speaker 1: throw them in if you need to. 779 00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:30,040 Speaker 2: Oh okay, no, I see what you're saying. Then it 780 00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:31,759 Speaker 2: is part of the message. But you're not gonna be 781 00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:34,439 Speaker 2: so precious that you couldn't add a few extra right. 782 00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:37,399 Speaker 1: Well. I think part of this exploration in paragraphs has 783 00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:40,320 Speaker 1: made me question that the use of paragraph breaks and 784 00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:43,640 Speaker 1: other works, especially older works like I really kind of 785 00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:46,319 Speaker 1: took it for granted, you know, some some paragraphs are long, 786 00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:49,920 Speaker 1: summer short. I didn't really think that about the idea 787 00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:51,799 Speaker 1: of even breaking them up. And now I'm looking back 788 00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:54,279 Speaker 1: and I'm thinking, well, you know, Borhees has going a 789 00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:57,400 Speaker 1: little long in this opening paragraph to this story. And 790 00:44:57,680 --> 00:44:59,719 Speaker 1: indeed he does go pretty His paragraphs tend to be 791 00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:03,719 Speaker 1: kind of chonky, especially some of the opening paragraphs. But 792 00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:07,200 Speaker 1: I'm not saying I would break up his text. It's 793 00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:09,879 Speaker 1: not my place. But I guess if someone came around 794 00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:12,200 Speaker 1: and broke some of my text up, I would be like, Okay, yeah, 795 00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:15,959 Speaker 1: it's probably better. You probably probably improved it. Hey. 796 00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:17,560 Speaker 2: So we got to end with a call to the 797 00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:19,959 Speaker 2: listeners here because there was something we were curious about 798 00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:23,279 Speaker 2: that we couldn't really find good answers to, which is, 799 00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:30,359 Speaker 2: are there languages where paragraph organization is significantly different than 800 00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:33,680 Speaker 2: it is like in English that we're familiar with bilingual 801 00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:36,600 Speaker 2: listeners who read and write in other non English languages, 802 00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:41,280 Speaker 2: any interesting differences in how paragraphs are used in those languages, 803 00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:44,080 Speaker 2: or is there a language without paragraphs at all that 804 00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:44,960 Speaker 2: you can tell us about. 805 00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:47,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, I wasn't able to find any good answers on 806 00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:50,200 Speaker 1: this myself looking around there weren't there weren't any discussions 807 00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:52,000 Speaker 1: about it. I certainly I didn't see it addressed in 808 00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:54,759 Speaker 1: any papers. So yeah, I would love to hear from 809 00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:56,920 Speaker 1: anyone out there who can speak to this. It seems 810 00:45:56,960 --> 00:46:00,319 Speaker 1: like it seems like the answer is yes, there are 811 00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:05,040 Speaker 1: things like paragraphs or paragraphs in other languages. And I 812 00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:10,200 Speaker 1: didn't see anything about there being particular language traditions today 813 00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:12,080 Speaker 1: where there are no paragraphs, but maybe there are. Maybe 814 00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:14,200 Speaker 1: I missed something, So definitely write in and let us know, 815 00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:18,600 Speaker 1: tell us, And certainly the call remains open paragraphs that 816 00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:22,000 Speaker 1: you love in particular works, especially again, I'm fascinated by 817 00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:25,840 Speaker 1: opening paragraphs, and part of that is like thinking, like 818 00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:28,840 Speaker 1: newspapery about things that this is the hook. This is 819 00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:30,840 Speaker 1: the thing that you are presenting the reader with to 820 00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:34,640 Speaker 1: get them to keep going. So what is the opening dish? 821 00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:38,680 Speaker 1: What is the appetizer that will make us remain seated 822 00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:40,879 Speaker 1: for the remainder of the meal? If you have great 823 00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:43,520 Speaker 1: examples of that, write in let us know. Or perhaps 824 00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:45,000 Speaker 1: there are some other works out there you can think 825 00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:48,760 Speaker 1: of in which there are no paragraph breaks. In the meantime, 826 00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:50,400 Speaker 1: if you would like to check out other episodes of 827 00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:52,040 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind. You will find them and 828 00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:55,719 Speaker 1: these Stuff to Blow your Mind podcast feed Core episodes 829 00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:59,360 Speaker 1: come out on Tuesdays and Thursdays Short Form Artifact or 830 00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:02,320 Speaker 1: Monster Factor, so it's come out on Wednesdays. On Mondays, 831 00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:04,800 Speaker 1: we do listener mail. On Fridays we do Weird House Cinema. 832 00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:07,719 Speaker 1: That's our time to set aside most serious concerns and 833 00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:09,520 Speaker 1: just talk about a strange film. 834 00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:12,640 Speaker 2: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Seth 835 00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:14,919 Speaker 2: Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to get in touch 836 00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:17,160 Speaker 2: with us with feedback on this episode or any other, 837 00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:19,640 Speaker 2: to suggest a topic for the future, or just to 838 00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:22,480 Speaker 2: say hello, you can email us at contact at stuff 839 00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:32,279 Speaker 2: to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your 840 00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:34,080 Speaker 2: Mind is production of iHeartRadio. 841 00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:37,360 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 842 00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:55,440 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.