Speaker 1: Hey Bam, Hello Sunshine. Today on the bright Side, we're
Speaker 1: doing things a little differently. We have a special guest
Speaker 1: joining us for the entire show. Norah Mcinernie is an
Speaker 1: author and the host of the Terrible Thanks For Asking podcast,
Speaker 1: and the podcast is going to be okay. We're talking
Speaker 1: to her a little bit later about her journey through grief,
Speaker 1: but first we're getting her hot takes, and she has
Speaker 1: a lot of them. It's Monday, May twentieth. I'm Danielle Robey.
Speaker 2: And I'm Simon Voice and this is the right side
Speaker 2: from Hello Sunshine.
Speaker 1: Everybody's favorite human Norah Mcinernie. Welcome to the bright Side.
Speaker 3: Hi, good morning. Thank you for having me, for so
Speaker 3: happy to have you, Noura, this is such a nice
Speaker 3: way to start my day in my week.
Speaker 1: You're bringing the bright to the bright side. I wish
Speaker 1: everybody could see your floral shirt that Simone and I love.
Speaker 3: My friend Chelsea sowed it for me because she is
Speaker 3: one of those people who has like too many and
Speaker 3: she's simply good at everything.
Speaker 1: Okay, I want to talk to you guys about something
Speaker 1: I came across on Instagram that women are naming their
Speaker 1: babies after themselves. So, before I go down this whole
Speaker 1: rabbit hole and tell you what this article was about,
Speaker 1: you are both mothers. How did you decide to name
Speaker 1: your children family names?
Speaker 3: Everybody in my family is named for a family member,
Speaker 3: and I knew when I was pregnant that I would
Speaker 3: just be picking leaves off the family tree. I'd be
Speaker 3: making a selection from names of people that I already
Speaker 3: knew and loved.
Speaker 2: I wish I had this really deep story for how
Speaker 2: I named my two boys, Logan and Keenan. But we
Speaker 2: literally just found them on lists and we're like, great,
Speaker 2: we love it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's good too. And also when I
Speaker 3: was younger, though, I have a diary entry where I said,
Speaker 3: in like middle school or something like that, if I
Speaker 3: have a girl, I'm naming her Nora.
Speaker 1: Wait, this is what we need to talk about, Nora,
Speaker 1: because more women are doing this. There's tons of men
Speaker 1: that we know in American culture, yes, that name their
Speaker 1: babies after themselves.
Speaker 4: They're called juniors.
Speaker 1: So like when I think of lebron James, he goes
Speaker 1: by Bronnie, but he's a junior. I understand why he
Speaker 1: wanted to change his name to not be Lebron James Junior. Yeah, literally,
Speaker 1: big shoes to Phil. But it's sort of this patrilineal trend,
Speaker 1: and now women are turning it on its head and
Speaker 1: they're naming their daughters after themselves.
Speaker 3: I also love names that are like Lori or Rory
Speaker 3: or why my only naming rhyming names, you know, Like
Speaker 3: I knew a boy named Carrie and I was like,
Speaker 3: I'm in love with you. That's the hottest name.
Speaker 1: Like a gender bending name, you like, yes.
Speaker 2: I love.
Speaker 3: I met a girl named Michael once and I was like,
Speaker 3: I want to be you. When I was named Nora,
Speaker 3: it was like a gross old lady name, and I
Speaker 3: wanted to be like a Danielle is very elegant. I
Speaker 3: wanted to be like a Christen a Stacy, which was
Speaker 3: really a popular girl name if you read The Babysitters Club.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I was obsessed with Stacy's also Stacy's mom.
Speaker 2: That was such a banger when that came out.
Speaker 3: I know, so I am here for it. I love
Speaker 3: a woman naming her baby after herself.
Speaker 2: I honestly can't say that I know a woman who
Speaker 2: has done it.
Speaker 4: Only Loralai Gilmore.
Speaker 3: True, and that was also very inspiring. I did know
Speaker 3: this group of girls. They were all sisters that went
Speaker 3: to my school. So imagine like five sisters and they're
Speaker 3: all really cool, and they all had the same middle name,
Speaker 3: and their middle name was their mom's first name. And
Speaker 3: I thought that was cool too.
Speaker 1: So I like that actually because I like a meaningful
Speaker 1: middle name. The first name to me feels tough because
Speaker 1: I think kids may feel like they have to.
Speaker 4: Live up to that parent.
Speaker 1: If your mom is Katie Curic, like tough to have
Speaker 1: a Katie junior.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, but I don't think the men think about this.
Speaker 2: The male name that was passed down in my dad's
Speaker 2: family was Sheldon. There were a lot of and I
Speaker 2: don't think that anyone ever thought about filling their father's
Speaker 2: shoes or what the consequences would be if you name
Speaker 2: them that. I wonder if that's an inherently female or
Speaker 2: motherly thing that we're putting on it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it feels like a point of pride. One thing
Speaker 3: I always wondered about was when you're the junior but
Speaker 3: you have other siblings, do they feel any kind of
Speaker 3: way about it? Like do they feel left out or
Speaker 3: less important because they weren't named after their parent.
Speaker 4: But you were Wait, that's such a good point.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wonder if they feel like the favorite.
Speaker 4: I think I would a little.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I would too. Wait, I want to get
Speaker 2: y'all's thoughts on the most popular baby names of twenty
Speaker 2: twenty three. So for girls it was Olivia, Emma, Charlotte, Amelia,
Speaker 2: and Sophia. And then for boys they were Liam, Noah, Oliver, James,
Speaker 2: and Elijah.
Speaker 3: Elijah feels like a sleeper hit, doesn't it.
Speaker 2: It's like slightly biblical in origin and yeah.
Speaker 3: But for Emma and Sophia to still be hanging on
Speaker 3: is really impressive to me.
Speaker 4: Well, I have a.
Speaker 1: Theory about Emma. So Rachel and Ross in friends named
Speaker 1: their daughter Emma, and it reverberated around the world. I
Speaker 1: think we're still in a generation of millennial women naming
Speaker 1: their daughters after that baby.
Speaker 2: It's true. Millennial women do love a pop culture reference
Speaker 2: when they name their kids.
Speaker 1: Aiden is a popular boy name, and that was because
Speaker 1: of sex and the city. I remember my neighbors growing
Speaker 1: up named their kid Aiden, and the mom took him
Speaker 1: to class and she was like, oh my god, there's
Speaker 1: seven Aiden's in his class.
Speaker 2: Notably not on this list, Karen. Why do some names
Speaker 2: just sound older, they sound vintage, like a Carol, A Debora.
Speaker 1: I think it's cyclical, though those names come back around.
Speaker 3: I think they will come back around. But I really
Speaker 3: think that if you want to name your child the
Speaker 3: most subversive name possible, you want them to be the
Speaker 3: only one in their class. You go back to when
Speaker 3: you were growing up and what the most popular names were,
Speaker 3: and you name your kid that you give birth to
Speaker 3: a Jennifer or a Jessica May twentieth, twenty twenty four,
Speaker 3: She's going to be the only one in her class,
Speaker 3: I guarantee you. And she's going to turn twenty and
Speaker 3: people are going to be like, ooh, Jessica Wow. I
Speaker 3: just like, never hear that, Jessica, Jessica wow wow.
Speaker 4: You know it's just soak, it's so unique.
Speaker 3: It's like where did your mom get that?
Speaker 2: Okay, so I have to run something else by you
Speaker 2: that I saw on my algorithm. There's this thing called
Speaker 2: ephemeral tattoos. Have you guys heard of this?
Speaker 5: Yes?
Speaker 2: Okay, so Nora you've heard of it. For anybody who
Speaker 2: hasn't heard of this, it is a made to fade
Speaker 2: inc it's by this company and that's their name, Ephemeral Tattoos,
Speaker 2: and they promise that your tattoos will fade within one
Speaker 2: to three years. And I saw someone getting one of
Speaker 2: these tattoos, and I don't have any tattoos because I've
Speaker 2: been really scared of the permanence of it all. But
Speaker 2: now I'm like, I don't know, I could tattoo my
Speaker 2: next era on my arm or something that sounds kind
Speaker 2: of fun. Nora, do you have tattoos?
Speaker 3: I have a lot of tattoos. I got one halfway
Speaker 3: lasered off before it was too painful, and I was like, ah,
Speaker 3: we'll leave it. And that was obviously my first worst
Speaker 3: tattoo that I got from a man who was probably drunk,
Speaker 3: unlicensed in Brooklyn. I certainly was not at my best
Speaker 3: psychologically or otherwise when I got it.
Speaker 2: It was bad. Oh my gosh, Nora, I mean, I
Speaker 2: have to know what it was. Are you able to share?
Speaker 3: It's not like it's inappropriate, it's just so it's every okay.
Speaker 3: This was the tattoo of every bartender, server, singer, songwriter
Speaker 3: in Brooklyn from the year's two thousand and seven to
Speaker 3: probably twenty fourteen, and then.
Speaker 4: I guess, yes, okay, I have three guesses. The first
Speaker 4: one does count okay, and I won't look at you A.
Speaker 1: Butterfly, a dolphin, a music note.
Speaker 4: And my fourth guess, oh.
Speaker 2: Well, phoenix, Okay, you're so close it was.
Speaker 3: And once I say this, you're going to time travel
Speaker 3: back in time and you'll know exactly what I'm talking about.
Speaker 3: Silhouettes of birds in flight? Ah, yes, a classic birds
Speaker 3: in flight up my back, like around my ribs, y know,
Speaker 3: so you know, did heal properly?
Speaker 2: Know? Did I take care of it? Also?
Speaker 3: No, is it the worst looking thing on my body?
Speaker 2: Not by far, Danielle, What would you get if you
Speaker 2: knew it would fade?
Speaker 5: So?
Speaker 1: I have one very small tattoo. They call it microcatles.
Speaker 1: It was so overpriced my mom found out and got
Speaker 1: real set. The reason I bring this up is that
Speaker 1: it's ephemeral by accident, because it's on my fingers.
Speaker 4: And I didn't know this.
Speaker 1: But no matter how expensive the tattoo is on your fingers,
Speaker 1: it actually fades because your finger skin regenerates a lot.
Speaker 4: So I say that, I'll just say.
Speaker 1: I think tattoos are beautiful artistry. I've never been a
Speaker 1: big tattoo girl. I think I'm scared so ephemerally I
Speaker 1: would choose like a ton of tribal tattoos.
Speaker 4: I'd be fully covered. But I don't know if I
Speaker 4: trust that it actually works. Does it fade?
Speaker 2: So here's the thing. I'm glad you brought that up,
Speaker 2: because there was this whole controversy with this company. Initially
Speaker 2: they promised that it would fade around fifteen months, and
Speaker 2: then people were like, uh, my tattoo isn't exactly fading
Speaker 2: in the timeframe that you promised me. So that's when
Speaker 2: they expanded the timeframe to one to three years. I
Speaker 2: mean that makes me a little nervous. I would need
Speaker 2: a guarantee, Okay, I would need a refine guarantee that
Speaker 2: it is going to fade. Yes, well, Nura, it's been
Speaker 2: so fun having you around for our morning drip, and
Speaker 2: Noura is sticky around to talk about finding joy after grief,
Speaker 2: the dangers of comparing yourself to others, and what it's
Speaker 2: like to make hard career decisions when you know it's
Speaker 2: time for something new. That's after the break, we're back
Speaker 2: with author and longtime podcaster Norah McInerney. I know I
Speaker 2: speak for Danielle too when I say that we are
Speaker 2: in awe of her journey and so blessed to have
Speaker 2: her with us today. On the bright side, if you
Speaker 2: don't know Nora's story, in twenty fourteen, she experienced three
Speaker 2: of the most harrowing things that can happen to a person,
Speaker 2: a pregnancy, loss, and the deaths of both her father
Speaker 2: and her first husband, Aaron. It's the kind of devastation
Speaker 2: that would cause most of us to give up, but
Speaker 2: Nora did the opposite. Through her books, podcasts, and viral
Speaker 2: ted talk. She leaned into the hard stuff and showed
Speaker 2: us how to move forward in spite of it.
Speaker 1: So I want to set the stage for everyone. You're
Speaker 1: in your twenty and you have several different jobs in
Speaker 1: the corporate world, and you're dating, and then you meet
Speaker 1: this guy named Eron, Yeah, and your life changed forever.
Speaker 4: What happened over the next three years.
Speaker 3: I almost hate telling this story because it was the
Speaker 3: most annoying love story that anyone could tell, which is like,
Speaker 3: I wasn't looking, I gave up, I found him, things
Speaker 3: were perfect, and then, in a plot twist that would
Speaker 3: be too much even for a Grey's anatomy, episode, he
Speaker 3: had a seizure at work, and the seizure was a
Speaker 3: brain tumor, and the brain tumor was brain cancer, and
Speaker 3: it was glioblastoma, which is the worst one, stage four.
Speaker 3: And we were catapulted into this other world where we
Speaker 3: needed to accept the reality that our love was not
Speaker 3: going to be as long of a forever as we thought,
Speaker 3: and also live the life that he still had, which
Speaker 3: is a lot for a twenty seven year old who
Speaker 3: has never been to therapy. But we got married and
Speaker 3: we had a baby, and our third wedding anniversary was
Speaker 3: Aaron's funeral. And when I tell this story, I can
Speaker 3: hear all of your listeners being like, it's called the
Speaker 3: bright side, It's called the bright side, What is happening?
Speaker 3: The vibe is ruined, The vibe is ruined, And I
Speaker 3: get it. And I also know that every single person
Speaker 3: listening to this has something like that in their life
Speaker 3: and in their life story, something that they feel like
Speaker 3: is too big or ugly or awkward or horrible to
Speaker 3: talk about, and so they just don't. And the reality
Speaker 3: is that these things that we believe set us apart
Speaker 3: from the world that make me so different, Like I'm
Speaker 3: not like other girls. My husband died. These are the
Speaker 3: things that make us a part of the world, that
Speaker 3: we are all carrying something and that we're connected in
Speaker 3: more than just our shared joys, but also our shared
Speaker 3: sorrows and our shared survival.
Speaker 2: That's the thing about loss, right, Like you joked about
Speaker 2: coming on the bright side and quote ruining the vibe,
Speaker 2: which you could never do. But that's the thing about loss.
Speaker 2: It's disruptive, right. And your Ted talk is one of
Speaker 2: my favorite Ted talks of all time. Think you because
Speaker 2: you talk about how loss is universal and it's something
Speaker 2: that we're all going to experience. So even though you
Speaker 2: experienced yours very early on and in this really immediate
Speaker 2: and all encompassing way, it's something that we are all
Speaker 2: going to experience too. But you made me laugh while
Speaker 2: you were talking about grief and while you were sharing
Speaker 2: your story, and I was like, Wow, what a superpower
Speaker 2: she has that she's able to do this. I'm curious
Speaker 2: what it's been like to grieve so visibly and so publicly,
Speaker 2: both through your Ted talk and also through your podcast,
Speaker 2: because you're you're normalizing grief for others as well.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's always going to be the part that is
Speaker 3: just for you, you know. And I think that making
Speaker 3: a show called Terrible Thanks for Asking, was a form
Speaker 3: of almost like balancing the scales. And by that I
Speaker 3: mean the weeks after Aaron died, I'm still on like
Speaker 3: Instagram posting pictures of me like on a run. But
Speaker 3: I'm not posting a picture of me at two am
Speaker 3: in the basement desperately trying to find a CD that
Speaker 3: Aaron mentioned, because if I can't find this CD, I've
Speaker 3: lost a piece of him. And this CD is somehow
Speaker 3: the most important thing in the world. And I'm going
Speaker 3: to rip our house down to the studs if that's
Speaker 3: what it takes. And I got so many messages from women,
Speaker 3: mostly who had gone through something hard and would say like, oh,
Speaker 3: I wish I was doing better. I wish I was
Speaker 3: doing like you, and I would think, what, I'm actually
Speaker 3: really not thriving. And I had a really hard time
Speaker 3: admitting that. I had a hard time admitting it to
Speaker 3: myself to the people around me, because we do like
Speaker 3: a winner. We like when somebody can just immediately alchemize
Speaker 3: their suffering into a self improvement project and come out
Speaker 3: of it better. And I wanted that post traumatic growth,
Speaker 3: and I wanted it immediately, and unfortunately it is not
Speaker 3: that easy, Like you actually do have to grieve, and
Speaker 3: the grieving that I did writing and the grieving that
Speaker 3: I did making the podcast was helpful, but a lot
Speaker 3: of it has to be private and is not Instagram
Speaker 3: friendly and is really ugly and best done under the
Speaker 3: supervision of a qualified therapist.
Speaker 1: You're so quick to point out the deep and painful
Speaker 1: duality in your life. You don't shy away from the
Speaker 1: messy truth. I'm curious you're almost ten years from that moment. Yeah,
Speaker 1: what are the messy truths that you're learning to face now.
Speaker 3: That it is okay to love what you have and
Speaker 3: miss what you had. I don't know. I still need
Speaker 3: to be reminded that my past is present and that
Speaker 3: that's okay. I was really afraid after Aaron died that
Speaker 3: I would lose every bit of him, and now I
Speaker 3: know that that's impossible, Like I could never lose lose,
Speaker 3: lose him. He is everywhere, and so is that love.
Speaker 2: Nora. I want to circle back to something that you
Speaker 2: said about how we feel this pressure to alchemize or
Speaker 2: suffering into life lessons right away and when you said
Speaker 2: that it made me think about us and our show,
Speaker 2: because it's something that we talk about all the time.
Speaker 2: Danielle and I are always searching for the bright side.
Speaker 2: We're always looking for life lessons. Yeah, but you're someone
Speaker 2: who has so much wisdom to share on this and
Speaker 2: you've walked through it. So what is the alternative? What
Speaker 2: should we be doing in stead of that?
Speaker 3: I think that this is another thing that I feel
Speaker 3: like I'm not a bummer generally, Like I strongly believe
Speaker 3: that you can have sadness in your story, and that
Speaker 3: does not make you a sad story. You are not
Speaker 3: the sad things or the bad things that happened to you,
Speaker 3: Like you are more than all of that. And we
Speaker 3: did find so much brightness in this experience, Like the
Speaker 3: moments of brightness shined harder than they would at any
Speaker 3: other point. I think when the lights are all shut
Speaker 3: off someone striking a match of any kind, it feels
Speaker 3: like you've never seen light before. And I had so
Speaker 3: many moments like that. The part where it turned unhealthy
Speaker 3: for me was when I wanted to only see the
Speaker 3: good stuff at the denial of the pain, which just
Speaker 3: needs to be felt, like there is no way to
Speaker 3: fast forward through that. And that is something that's important
Speaker 3: for me to show my kids too, not that they
Speaker 3: just have to immediately get up and dust themselves off,
Speaker 3: but like they can feel the pain without ignoring the
Speaker 3: joy around them.
Speaker 1: Okay, we have to take a quick little break, but
Speaker 1: we'll be right back with author and podcaster Norah Mcinernie.
Speaker 4: And we're back with Norah Mcinernie.
Speaker 1: You're making me think of something that I read in
Speaker 1: your book Bad Vibes Only you say that you're highly
Speaker 1: suspect of this era of personal development and influencers and
Speaker 1: like self help gurus.
Speaker 4: And I was giggling because I love self help.
Speaker 1: But I as I was reading that, I was thinking,
Speaker 1: like that is my version, right, Like when I don't
Speaker 1: know what to do, I turned to Oprah's book What
Speaker 1: I Know for Sure, and it's like it's an anthology,
Speaker 1: and I flipped to a chapter when you were in
Speaker 1: the thick of it?
Speaker 4: How did you nurture yourself poorly?
Speaker 3: So badly? I did not take good care of myself.
Speaker 3: I drank a lot, I did not sleep, I lied
Speaker 3: and told everybody I was fine when I wasn't. And
Speaker 3: it took me a really long time to even go
Speaker 3: to therapy, and a part of that was I had
Speaker 3: never really been. It seemed impossible for me to find
Speaker 3: a therapist, call them, make an appointment, go to it,
Speaker 3: talk to them, and then continue. That cycle was so
Speaker 3: overwhelming for me.
Speaker 2: I feel like I don't really know how to be
Speaker 2: a good friend whenever someone is going through grief. I
Speaker 2: think there have been times when I've done an okay job.
Speaker 2: There's times when I've failed miserably and I just didn't
Speaker 2: know what to say or do. So I kind of
Speaker 2: pulled back, Yeah, what does it look like to be
Speaker 2: a good friend and walk alongside someone who's experiencing loss.
Speaker 3: That's normal and it's not too late even now. I
Speaker 3: he also was bad at it. One of my friends
Speaker 3: lost his dad. We were in our early twenties, and
Speaker 3: I did all the things that I was taught to do.
Speaker 3: I went to the wake, go into the funeral. I
Speaker 3: maybe cooked a hot dish, I wrote a card, done,
Speaker 3: and then I never asked about his dad ever again. Ever.
Speaker 3: In fact, I didn't even talk about my own dad.
Speaker 3: I was like, we just won't talk about dads. You
Speaker 3: won't ever be sad about it. Great, and when my
Speaker 3: dad died. I called him right away and I was like,
Speaker 3: I can't believe I never asked you about your dad.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, I can't believe you're walking around this
Speaker 3: world without a dad. It's the weirdest thing in the world.
Speaker 3: You cannot overestimate the power of just showing up and
Speaker 3: shutting up. You don't have to know what to say,
Speaker 3: just showing up and being like, I'm sorry, I don't
Speaker 3: know what to say, but I'm here. Don't ask what
Speaker 3: can I do that gives that person a job, But
Speaker 3: just do a thing and risk them not appreciating it.
Speaker 3: I had a friend who texted me and was like,
Speaker 3: I'm at Costco and I'm buying you butter milk, paper towels,
Speaker 3: and I'm gonna leave it on your backstep. You don't
Speaker 3: have to open the door, so I didn't have to
Speaker 3: say yes or now, you know, because I would have
Speaker 3: said no, even though I probably had nothing in my
Speaker 3: fridge at the time. And she kept doing that, and
Speaker 3: she sat with me and allowed me to just exist.
Speaker 3: And I still think about that, like she just did
Speaker 3: a thing, just a thing that she could do, and
Speaker 3: that she did do.
Speaker 1: There's such an underestimation of being a witness to somebody's pain. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know you're remarried to your husband, Matthew. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: I love the serendipity of how you met.
Speaker 4: Will you share that story with people?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I gotta say I never would have met him
Speaker 3: on a nap because I just simply would have not
Speaker 3: swiped right on a five eleven divorced dad of like
Speaker 3: a teen and a tween. I would have been like, no,
Speaker 3: thank you, no, no no. But I was in the
Speaker 3: backyard of my friend Moe, who is also a widow,
Speaker 3: and we were burning things, you know, phils from our husband,
Speaker 3: explanation of benefits from an insurance companies, just burning that
Speaker 3: kind of stuff in the backyard and her back gate opened.
Speaker 3: It's like fifty weeks after Aaron has died. I'm so
Speaker 3: stressed out. I can't even turn my head, Like my
Speaker 3: neck has just totally locked up. And now there's this
Speaker 3: guy in the backyard and I'm like great, And he
Speaker 3: sat down. She had those plastic ad her on deck
Speaker 3: chairs from like Ace hardware, and it just like flipped
Speaker 3: backwards and his feet like went through the air. He
Speaker 3: had a glass of wine which was just like an
Speaker 3: arc of wine. And I laughed so hard I had
Speaker 3: not laughed in like a year. And he went inside,
Speaker 3: got cleaned up, came out, and then he just listened
Speaker 3: to me in mo talk for like three hours about
Speaker 3: our feelings, and he just nodded and listened. And then
Speaker 3: finally I was like, what's your deal. I didn't think like, oh,
Speaker 3: I'm going to fall in love again. I wanted to
Speaker 3: be around him, but I didn't know why. And now
Speaker 3: I'm around him all the time.
Speaker 4: So I love that story.
Speaker 1: Well, you have another podcast that you're behind the scenes
Speaker 1: on called Refamulating. So what does refamulating mean and what
Speaker 1: are the rules of refamulating.
Speaker 3: Refamulating is the process of rebuilding or redefining what family
Speaker 3: means to you. So the rules are basically that there
Speaker 3: are no rules. There was a Pew research study that
Speaker 3: I think came out in twenty fifteen that said that
Speaker 3: there's no longer a dominant family structure in the US.
Speaker 3: So when I was growing up, it was two parents,
Speaker 3: a mom and a dad, two and a half kids,
Speaker 3: a dog, and now it could be anything. This is
Speaker 3: the first time in history that there is no average family.
Speaker 3: And so the family that you have that you think
Speaker 3: is like so weird. In my case, a divorce, a
Speaker 3: and a widow getting married, blending two and one and
Speaker 3: then a little runt to round it out to four.
Speaker 3: That felt so unusual, not something I would have ever
Speaker 3: imagined for myself because I grew up in a Catholic
Speaker 3: community where I don't think any of my friend's parents
Speaker 3: were divorced, and so refamulating. The show is about celebrating
Speaker 3: the many ways that people can create or define or
Speaker 3: redefine their family. So it's featuring real stories of real families.
Speaker 2: I think that's so important to see. Well as if
Speaker 2: you needed just another job, we're going to throw one
Speaker 2: more in there. You're also working on a new podcast,
Speaker 2: It's going to Be Okay. I started working on It's
Speaker 2: going to Be Okay just as a personal project. Twenty
Speaker 2: twenty one and twenty twenty two were really difficult, like
Speaker 2: really really dark times for me.
Speaker 3: I was overwhelmed and underwhelmed by everything all the time.
Speaker 3: I truly just felt nothing and everything and like I
Speaker 3: was just engaging with the world through like a wall
Speaker 3: of glass brick from the nineties, And my therapist asked
Speaker 3: me to write down something okay about your day, just
Speaker 3: like write down doesn't have to be the best thing.
Speaker 3: You don't have to be looking for, you know, gold
Speaker 3: every day, but like find a shiny penny somewhere. And
Speaker 3: I started doing it and it worked.
Speaker 2: It really did.
Speaker 3: Attune me more to the okay things I think sometimes
Speaker 3: I get into black and white all are nothing, thinking
Speaker 3: pretty easily like, well, things are good or they're bad,
Speaker 3: and mostly they're just kind of okay.
Speaker 4: Would you give it a percentage?
Speaker 3: Eighty percent of my days are average and forgettable, I really,
Speaker 3: you know, like and then and then ten percent are
Speaker 3: wonderful and ten percent are like awful, and most of
Speaker 3: them are just nothing horrible happened, right, nothing great happened,
Speaker 3: like that was an okay day. And I started writing
Speaker 3: them as like little scenes more than anything else. And
Speaker 3: I thought, Okay, let's just start a daily podcast that's
Speaker 3: five minutes long where we just explore the okay things
Speaker 3: in life, and we'll just do it for thirty days.
Speaker 3: And then we did it for thirty more and now
Speaker 3: it's been a year of okay things and our first
Speaker 3: episode Aaron's prayer card for his funeral, who wasn't religious.
Speaker 3: So I had my friend Chelsea Brink design it, and
Speaker 3: it was the sentence that he said to me all
Speaker 3: the time before he got sick, When he was sick,
Speaker 3: when he was literally dying, he would say, it's going
Speaker 3: to be okay. And I would say, in my head,
Speaker 3: you're wrong and dying and also on morphine, like what
Speaker 3: are you talking about? Like you're about to die, it's
Speaker 3: not going to be okay. But he didn't say everything
Speaker 3: would be okay, did he. He said it, and he
Speaker 3: did not specify what it was. So it could be
Speaker 3: the fact that there is a hum bird right outside
Speaker 3: my window, humming along, hanging out, and that could be enough,
Speaker 3: you know, that could be enough for today.
Speaker 4: I really love the pod.
Speaker 1: I didn't know it was named after a saying that
Speaker 1: he always said, so it's even more meaningful.
Speaker 4: Now.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you've been making terrible things for asking for seven years,
Speaker 1: and you just recently announced this March that you're gonna
Speaker 1: go on hiatus. I don't want to put words in
Speaker 1: your mouth, so I'm not calling it hiatus. I just
Speaker 1: love the idea of quitting things. I think quitting things
Speaker 1: is so underrated.
Speaker 2: I think so too, So I want to.
Speaker 4: Hear about your choice to step away for now.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, when I started making it in twenty sixteen,
Speaker 3: I started working on this not thinking, oh, this will
Speaker 3: be my career. I thought, this will be ten episodes
Speaker 3: of a podcast that I make and then do something else.
Speaker 3: And because of being in the right place at the
Speaker 3: right time when there were only ten thousand pods and
Speaker 3: not ten million podcasts, and I guess making something that
Speaker 3: resonated at the right moment, it turned into something that
Speaker 3: I wasn't expecting, something amazing, something wonderful. I get to
Speaker 3: go on tours and do these beautiful live shows for years,
Speaker 3: and I got to meet people that I would have
Speaker 3: never met, like all these amazing people who are just
Speaker 3: walking amongst us carrying some big, incredible story, and I
Speaker 3: got to tell their story to millions of people. And
Speaker 3: first of all, it's the longest I've ever held a job. Second,
Speaker 3: you know, like it's a lot to really put yourself
Speaker 3: in the path of so much pain for so long.
Speaker 3: I reported on and did an episode once on secondary trauma,
Speaker 3: not thinking could I be experiencing this. I don't know
Speaker 3: how many times you have to google like burnout, Do
Speaker 3: I have it? Before you realize yes. And one of
Speaker 3: the symptoms is googling burnout Do I have it? So yeah.
Speaker 3: I talked to the whole team and I said, who
Speaker 3: else is really tired? Like, who else is really tired?
Speaker 3: And who would feel relieved if we weren't on this
Speaker 3: constant churn of creating beautiful, meaningful and hard to tell stories.
Speaker 3: And everyone raised their hand and I was like, we
Speaker 3: have to hit the boss button. We have to find
Speaker 3: a way to make our jobs sustainable financially end emotionally.
Speaker 3: It's one thing to burn your own candle at two
Speaker 3: ends and also in the middle a third location that
Speaker 3: you didn't know a candle could be lit at. But
Speaker 3: it's another thing to bring other people into that with you.
Speaker 3: So once I said it out loud, it was pretty obvious.
Speaker 3: You know, It's pretty obvious we all need some space
Speaker 3: to just exist and feel things and see what else
Speaker 3: comes from the quiet.
Speaker 2: Well, now that you have some quiet, and now that
Speaker 2: you are in fighting joy and okayness into your life
Speaker 2: through your other podcast, what does the bright side look
Speaker 2: like for you? Now?
Speaker 3: The bright side is presence, like actually being places and
Speaker 3: not being so worried about what ball I am dropping
Speaker 3: or where I'm supposed to be next, or what I'm
Speaker 3: supposed to be doing next or the next thing I
Speaker 3: could be doing. The bright side is truly just stillness,
Speaker 3: and that's a really unnatural way for me to exist
Speaker 3: as a child who is described by her mother as industrious,
Speaker 3: you know, not like sweet or like cute, industrious, like
Speaker 3: a worker.
Speaker 2: You know, go visit.
Speaker 3: Your Grandpa's gonna have you moving a pile of bricks. Like,
Speaker 3: I'm not used to just existing. Obviously I'm working, right,
Speaker 3: I'm working, but I'm just not like when I tuk
Speaker 3: my kids in their hamsters wake up because hamsters are nocturnal,
Speaker 3: a great pet for children, And I'll be laying in
Speaker 3: bed with a kid reading a story and the hamsters
Speaker 3: literally wake up and like turn on and leap onto
Speaker 3: a wheel and start running. And I would look at
Speaker 3: them and be like, oh, that's me, baby, like just
Speaker 3: they're not even going anywhere, They're just like then they
Speaker 3: jump off like drink some water, and then they're back
Speaker 3: on that wheel, and I was like, oh my god,
Speaker 3: that's me.
Speaker 1: I am that.
Speaker 5: Hamster, big hamster energy, big hamster energy. Okay, like bag,
Speaker 5: oh god. So now I'm trying to be whatever. What's
Speaker 5: the opposite of a hamster koala maybe.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's an animal that's just purely runs on vibes.
Speaker 2: Eucalyptus and vibes. That's all they need to be happy.
Speaker 3: Yeah. The bright side for me is knowing that I
Speaker 3: actually don't have to wake up and leap onto a
Speaker 3: hamster wheel, Like I could just ride the hamster wheel,
Speaker 3: because so much is happening that I could miss out
Speaker 3: on simply by not being present for last week are old.
Speaker 3: This kid graduated from college, like is an adult in
Speaker 3: the world. Now we've got a kid who's about to
Speaker 3: start college. And now we have a kid who's like
Speaker 3: an adult, and he got into a graduate school program.
Speaker 3: And now I am counseling an adult on how to
Speaker 3: take on student loan debt.
Speaker 1: I have to be honest, Nora, before you mentioned your
Speaker 1: son's college debt, I was sort of thinking you sounded
Speaker 1: like a self help guru.
Speaker 4: You were sounding very inspirational. But the debt is kind
Speaker 4: of a downer.
Speaker 3: The debt's kind of a downer. Yeah, But you know what,
Speaker 3: it's wild to me that that happened in ten years, Like,
Speaker 3: in ten years, we went from having this weird little
Speaker 3: like blending family and me being like, Okay, what are
Speaker 3: fourteen year.
Speaker 2: Old boys like?
Speaker 5: You know?
Speaker 3: I don't know, Like what's their deal? And so much
Speaker 3: has happened in ten years. We have a kid now
Speaker 3: who's joining college, a kid who's graduating high school, we're
Speaker 3: going to have a middle schooler, We're going to have
Speaker 3: a second grader. And I'm also trying to make choices
Speaker 3: for the version of me that exists ten years from now.
Speaker 3: I'm trying to actually imagine her, because I couldn't picture
Speaker 3: her ten years ago. I couldn't picture this version of me,
Speaker 3: And so I'm trying to make choices that make future
Speaker 3: Nora's life calmer and more peaceful and more sustainable.
Speaker 4: What do you think Erin would think about this version
Speaker 4: of Nora.
Speaker 3: I still have conversations with him. I can still hear
Speaker 3: when I am being irrational. Erin was very chill. When
Speaker 3: I am not chill, I can feel him being like, stop,
Speaker 3: this is not the thing to worry about. But I
Speaker 3: think you'd be so happy, And I think I don't know,
Speaker 3: it feels like he is a part of it. But
Speaker 3: I think you'd be really, really proud. I think you'd
Speaker 3: be really proud of us.
Speaker 1: I feel like It's going to be Okay, so too, Nurah.
Speaker 1: Thank you for sharing your time with us on the
Speaker 1: bright Side.
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. Naura mcinnernie is an author
Speaker 2: and podcaster. Her two podcasts are It's going to Be
Speaker 2: Okay and Refamulating.
Speaker 4: That's it for today's show.
Speaker 1: Tomorrow on the show, figure skating icon and ambassador Michelle
Speaker 1: Kwan is here talking all about pivots and second acts.
Speaker 2: Subscribe and listen to the bright Side on the iHeartRadio
Speaker 2: app or wherever else you get your podcasts. I'm Simone
Speaker 2: Boye and you can find me on Instagram and TikTok
Speaker 2: at Simone Voice.
Speaker 4: I'm Danielle Robe.
Speaker 1: You can follow me on Instagram and TikTok at Danielle
Speaker 1: Robe ro b a y.
Speaker 4: Well, see you tomorrow, Yeah,