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Speaker 1: Hey Bam, Hello Sunshine. Today on the bright Side, we're

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Speaker 1: doing things a little differently. We have a special guest

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Speaker 1: joining us for the entire show. Norah Mcinernie is an

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Speaker 1: author and the host of the Terrible Thanks For Asking podcast,

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Speaker 1: and the podcast is going to be okay. We're talking

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Speaker 1: to her a little bit later about her journey through grief,

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Speaker 1: but first we're getting her hot takes, and she has

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Speaker 1: a lot of them. It's Monday, May twentieth. I'm Danielle Robey.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Simon Voice and this is the right side

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Speaker 2: from Hello Sunshine.

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Speaker 1: Everybody's favorite human Norah Mcinernie. Welcome to the bright Side.

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Speaker 3: Hi, good morning. Thank you for having me, for so

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Speaker 3: happy to have you, Noura, this is such a nice

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Speaker 3: way to start my day in my week.

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Speaker 1: You're bringing the bright to the bright side. I wish

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Speaker 1: everybody could see your floral shirt that Simone and I love.

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Speaker 3: My friend Chelsea sowed it for me because she is

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Speaker 3: one of those people who has like too many and

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Speaker 3: she's simply good at everything.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I want to talk to you guys about something

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Speaker 1: I came across on Instagram that women are naming their

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Speaker 1: babies after themselves. So, before I go down this whole

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Speaker 1: rabbit hole and tell you what this article was about,

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Speaker 1: you are both mothers. How did you decide to name

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Speaker 1: your children family names?

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Speaker 3: Everybody in my family is named for a family member,

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Speaker 3: and I knew when I was pregnant that I would

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Speaker 3: just be picking leaves off the family tree. I'd be

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Speaker 3: making a selection from names of people that I already

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Speaker 3: knew and loved.

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Speaker 2: I wish I had this really deep story for how

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Speaker 2: I named my two boys, Logan and Keenan. But we

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Speaker 2: literally just found them on lists and we're like, great,

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Speaker 2: we love it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's good too. And also when I

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Speaker 3: was younger, though, I have a diary entry where I said,

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Speaker 3: in like middle school or something like that, if I

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Speaker 3: have a girl, I'm naming her Nora.

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Speaker 1: Wait, this is what we need to talk about, Nora,

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Speaker 1: because more women are doing this. There's tons of men

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Speaker 1: that we know in American culture, yes, that name their

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Speaker 1: babies after themselves.

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Speaker 4: They're called juniors.

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Speaker 1: So like when I think of lebron James, he goes

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Speaker 1: by Bronnie, but he's a junior. I understand why he

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Speaker 1: wanted to change his name to not be Lebron James Junior. Yeah, literally,

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Speaker 1: big shoes to Phil. But it's sort of this patrilineal trend,

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Speaker 1: and now women are turning it on its head and

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Speaker 1: they're naming their daughters after themselves.

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Speaker 3: I also love names that are like Lori or Rory

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Speaker 3: or why my only naming rhyming names, you know, Like

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Speaker 3: I knew a boy named Carrie and I was like,

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Speaker 3: I'm in love with you. That's the hottest name.

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Speaker 1: Like a gender bending name, you like, yes.

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Speaker 2: I love.

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Speaker 3: I met a girl named Michael once and I was like,

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Speaker 3: I want to be you. When I was named Nora,

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Speaker 3: it was like a gross old lady name, and I

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Speaker 3: wanted to be like a Danielle is very elegant. I

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Speaker 3: wanted to be like a Christen a Stacy, which was

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Speaker 3: really a popular girl name if you read The Babysitters Club.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, I was obsessed with Stacy's also Stacy's mom.

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Speaker 2: That was such a banger when that came out.

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Speaker 3: I know, so I am here for it. I love

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Speaker 3: a woman naming her baby after herself.

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Speaker 2: I honestly can't say that I know a woman who

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Speaker 2: has done it.

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Speaker 4: Only Loralai Gilmore.

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Speaker 3: True, and that was also very inspiring. I did know

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Speaker 3: this group of girls. They were all sisters that went

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Speaker 3: to my school. So imagine like five sisters and they're

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Speaker 3: all really cool, and they all had the same middle name,

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Speaker 3: and their middle name was their mom's first name. And

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Speaker 3: I thought that was cool too.

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Speaker 1: So I like that actually because I like a meaningful

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Speaker 1: middle name. The first name to me feels tough because

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Speaker 1: I think kids may feel like they have to.

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Speaker 4: Live up to that parent.

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Speaker 1: If your mom is Katie Curic, like tough to have

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Speaker 1: a Katie junior.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, but I don't think the men think about this.

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Speaker 2: The male name that was passed down in my dad's

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Speaker 2: family was Sheldon. There were a lot of and I

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Speaker 2: don't think that anyone ever thought about filling their father's

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Speaker 2: shoes or what the consequences would be if you name

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Speaker 2: them that. I wonder if that's an inherently female or

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Speaker 2: motherly thing that we're putting on it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it feels like a point of pride. One thing

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Speaker 3: I always wondered about was when you're the junior but

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Speaker 3: you have other siblings, do they feel any kind of

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Speaker 3: way about it? Like do they feel left out or

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Speaker 3: less important because they weren't named after their parent.

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Speaker 4: But you were Wait, that's such a good point.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I wonder if they feel like the favorite.

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Speaker 4: I think I would a little.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I would too. Wait, I want to get

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Speaker 2: y'all's thoughts on the most popular baby names of twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty three. So for girls it was Olivia, Emma, Charlotte, Amelia,

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Speaker 2: and Sophia. And then for boys they were Liam, Noah, Oliver, James,

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Speaker 2: and Elijah.

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Speaker 3: Elijah feels like a sleeper hit, doesn't it.

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Speaker 2: It's like slightly biblical in origin and yeah.

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Speaker 3: But for Emma and Sophia to still be hanging on

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Speaker 3: is really impressive to me.

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Speaker 4: Well, I have a.

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Speaker 1: Theory about Emma. So Rachel and Ross in friends named

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Speaker 1: their daughter Emma, and it reverberated around the world. I

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Speaker 1: think we're still in a generation of millennial women naming

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Speaker 1: their daughters after that baby.

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Speaker 2: It's true. Millennial women do love a pop culture reference

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Speaker 2: when they name their kids.

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Speaker 1: Aiden is a popular boy name, and that was because

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Speaker 1: of sex and the city. I remember my neighbors growing

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Speaker 1: up named their kid Aiden, and the mom took him

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Speaker 1: to class and she was like, oh my god, there's

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Speaker 1: seven Aiden's in his class.

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Speaker 2: Notably not on this list, Karen. Why do some names

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Speaker 2: just sound older, they sound vintage, like a Carol, A Debora.

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Speaker 1: I think it's cyclical, though those names come back around.

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Speaker 3: I think they will come back around. But I really

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Speaker 3: think that if you want to name your child the

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Speaker 3: most subversive name possible, you want them to be the

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Speaker 3: only one in their class. You go back to when

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Speaker 3: you were growing up and what the most popular names were,

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Speaker 3: and you name your kid that you give birth to

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Speaker 3: a Jennifer or a Jessica May twentieth, twenty twenty four,

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Speaker 3: She's going to be the only one in her class,

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Speaker 3: I guarantee you. And she's going to turn twenty and

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Speaker 3: people are going to be like, ooh, Jessica Wow. I

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Speaker 3: just like, never hear that, Jessica, Jessica wow wow.

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Speaker 4: You know it's just soak, it's so unique.

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Speaker 3: It's like where did your mom get that?

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Speaker 2: Okay, so I have to run something else by you

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Speaker 2: that I saw on my algorithm. There's this thing called

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Speaker 2: ephemeral tattoos. Have you guys heard of this?

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Speaker 5: Yes?

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Speaker 2: Okay, so Nora you've heard of it. For anybody who

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Speaker 2: hasn't heard of this, it is a made to fade

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Speaker 2: inc it's by this company and that's their name, Ephemeral Tattoos,

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Speaker 2: and they promise that your tattoos will fade within one

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Speaker 2: to three years. And I saw someone getting one of

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Speaker 2: these tattoos, and I don't have any tattoos because I've

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Speaker 2: been really scared of the permanence of it all. But

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Speaker 2: now I'm like, I don't know, I could tattoo my

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Speaker 2: next era on my arm or something that sounds kind

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Speaker 2: of fun. Nora, do you have tattoos?

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Speaker 3: I have a lot of tattoos. I got one halfway

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Speaker 3: lasered off before it was too painful, and I was like, ah,

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Speaker 3: we'll leave it. And that was obviously my first worst

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Speaker 3: tattoo that I got from a man who was probably drunk,

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Speaker 3: unlicensed in Brooklyn. I certainly was not at my best

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Speaker 3: psychologically or otherwise when I got it.

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Speaker 2: It was bad. Oh my gosh, Nora, I mean, I

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Speaker 2: have to know what it was. Are you able to share?

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Speaker 3: It's not like it's inappropriate, it's just so it's every okay.

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Speaker 3: This was the tattoo of every bartender, server, singer, songwriter

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Speaker 3: in Brooklyn from the year's two thousand and seven to

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Speaker 3: probably twenty fourteen, and then.

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Speaker 4: I guess, yes, okay, I have three guesses. The first

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Speaker 4: one does count okay, and I won't look at you A.

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Speaker 1: Butterfly, a dolphin, a music note.

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Speaker 4: And my fourth guess, oh.

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Speaker 2: Well, phoenix, Okay, you're so close it was.

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Speaker 3: And once I say this, you're going to time travel

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Speaker 3: back in time and you'll know exactly what I'm talking about.

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Speaker 3: Silhouettes of birds in flight? Ah, yes, a classic birds

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Speaker 3: in flight up my back, like around my ribs, y know,

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Speaker 3: so you know, did heal properly?

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Speaker 2: Know? Did I take care of it? Also?

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Speaker 3: No, is it the worst looking thing on my body?

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Speaker 2: Not by far, Danielle, What would you get if you

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Speaker 2: knew it would fade?

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Speaker 5: So?

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Speaker 1: I have one very small tattoo. They call it microcatles.

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Speaker 1: It was so overpriced my mom found out and got

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Speaker 1: real set. The reason I bring this up is that

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Speaker 1: it's ephemeral by accident, because it's on my fingers.

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Speaker 4: And I didn't know this.

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Speaker 1: But no matter how expensive the tattoo is on your fingers,

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Speaker 1: it actually fades because your finger skin regenerates a lot.

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Speaker 4: So I say that, I'll just say.

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Speaker 1: I think tattoos are beautiful artistry. I've never been a

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Speaker 1: big tattoo girl. I think I'm scared so ephemerally I

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Speaker 1: would choose like a ton of tribal tattoos.

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Speaker 4: I'd be fully covered. But I don't know if I

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Speaker 4: trust that it actually works. Does it fade?

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Speaker 2: So here's the thing. I'm glad you brought that up,

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Speaker 2: because there was this whole controversy with this company. Initially

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Speaker 2: they promised that it would fade around fifteen months, and

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Speaker 2: then people were like, uh, my tattoo isn't exactly fading

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Speaker 2: in the timeframe that you promised me. So that's when

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Speaker 2: they expanded the timeframe to one to three years. I

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Speaker 2: mean that makes me a little nervous. I would need

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Speaker 2: a guarantee, Okay, I would need a refine guarantee that

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Speaker 2: it is going to fade. Yes, well, Nura, it's been

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Speaker 2: so fun having you around for our morning drip, and

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Speaker 2: Noura is sticky around to talk about finding joy after grief,

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Speaker 2: the dangers of comparing yourself to others, and what it's

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Speaker 2: like to make hard career decisions when you know it's

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Speaker 2: time for something new. That's after the break, we're back

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Speaker 2: with author and longtime podcaster Norah McInerney. I know I

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Speaker 2: speak for Danielle too when I say that we are

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Speaker 2: in awe of her journey and so blessed to have

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Speaker 2: her with us today. On the bright side, if you

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Speaker 2: don't know Nora's story, in twenty fourteen, she experienced three

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Speaker 2: of the most harrowing things that can happen to a person,

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Speaker 2: a pregnancy, loss, and the deaths of both her father

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Speaker 2: and her first husband, Aaron. It's the kind of devastation

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Speaker 2: that would cause most of us to give up, but

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Speaker 2: Nora did the opposite. Through her books, podcasts, and viral

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Speaker 2: ted talk. She leaned into the hard stuff and showed

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Speaker 2: us how to move forward in spite of it.

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Speaker 1: So I want to set the stage for everyone. You're

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Speaker 1: in your twenty and you have several different jobs in

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Speaker 1: the corporate world, and you're dating, and then you meet

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Speaker 1: this guy named Eron, Yeah, and your life changed forever.

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Speaker 4: What happened over the next three years.

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Speaker 3: I almost hate telling this story because it was the

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Speaker 3: most annoying love story that anyone could tell, which is like,

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Speaker 3: I wasn't looking, I gave up, I found him, things

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Speaker 3: were perfect, and then, in a plot twist that would

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Speaker 3: be too much even for a Grey's anatomy, episode, he

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Speaker 3: had a seizure at work, and the seizure was a

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Speaker 3: brain tumor, and the brain tumor was brain cancer, and

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Speaker 3: it was glioblastoma, which is the worst one, stage four.

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Speaker 3: And we were catapulted into this other world where we

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Speaker 3: needed to accept the reality that our love was not

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Speaker 3: going to be as long of a forever as we thought,

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Speaker 3: and also live the life that he still had, which

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Speaker 3: is a lot for a twenty seven year old who

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Speaker 3: has never been to therapy. But we got married and

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Speaker 3: we had a baby, and our third wedding anniversary was

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Speaker 3: Aaron's funeral. And when I tell this story, I can

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Speaker 3: hear all of your listeners being like, it's called the

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Speaker 3: bright side, It's called the bright side, What is happening?

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Speaker 3: The vibe is ruined, The vibe is ruined, And I

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Speaker 3: get it. And I also know that every single person

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Speaker 3: listening to this has something like that in their life

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Speaker 3: and in their life story, something that they feel like

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Speaker 3: is too big or ugly or awkward or horrible to

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Speaker 3: talk about, and so they just don't. And the reality

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Speaker 3: is that these things that we believe set us apart

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Speaker 3: from the world that make me so different, Like I'm

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Speaker 3: not like other girls. My husband died. These are the

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Speaker 3: things that make us a part of the world, that

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Speaker 3: we are all carrying something and that we're connected in

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Speaker 3: more than just our shared joys, but also our shared

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Speaker 3: sorrows and our shared survival.

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Speaker 2: That's the thing about loss, right, Like you joked about

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Speaker 2: coming on the bright side and quote ruining the vibe,

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Speaker 2: which you could never do. But that's the thing about loss.

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Speaker 2: It's disruptive, right. And your Ted talk is one of

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Speaker 2: my favorite Ted talks of all time. Think you because

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Speaker 2: you talk about how loss is universal and it's something

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Speaker 2: that we're all going to experience. So even though you

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Speaker 2: experienced yours very early on and in this really immediate

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Speaker 2: and all encompassing way, it's something that we are all

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Speaker 2: going to experience too. But you made me laugh while

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Speaker 2: you were talking about grief and while you were sharing

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Speaker 2: your story, and I was like, Wow, what a superpower

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Speaker 2: she has that she's able to do this. I'm curious

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Speaker 2: what it's been like to grieve so visibly and so publicly,

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Speaker 2: both through your Ted talk and also through your podcast,

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Speaker 2: because you're you're normalizing grief for others as well.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's always going to be the part that is

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Speaker 3: just for you, you know. And I think that making

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Speaker 3: a show called Terrible Thanks for Asking, was a form

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Speaker 3: of almost like balancing the scales. And by that I

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Speaker 3: mean the weeks after Aaron died, I'm still on like

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Speaker 3: Instagram posting pictures of me like on a run. But

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Speaker 3: I'm not posting a picture of me at two am

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Speaker 3: in the basement desperately trying to find a CD that

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Speaker 3: Aaron mentioned, because if I can't find this CD, I've

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Speaker 3: lost a piece of him. And this CD is somehow

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Speaker 3: the most important thing in the world. And I'm going

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Speaker 3: to rip our house down to the studs if that's

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Speaker 3: what it takes. And I got so many messages from women,

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Speaker 3: mostly who had gone through something hard and would say like, oh,

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Speaker 3: I wish I was doing better. I wish I was

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Speaker 3: doing like you, and I would think, what, I'm actually

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Speaker 3: really not thriving. And I had a really hard time

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Speaker 3: admitting that. I had a hard time admitting it to

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Speaker 3: myself to the people around me, because we do like

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Speaker 3: a winner. We like when somebody can just immediately alchemize

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Speaker 3: their suffering into a self improvement project and come out

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Speaker 3: of it better. And I wanted that post traumatic growth,

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Speaker 3: and I wanted it immediately, and unfortunately it is not

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Speaker 3: that easy, Like you actually do have to grieve, and

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Speaker 3: the grieving that I did writing and the grieving that

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Speaker 3: I did making the podcast was helpful, but a lot

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Speaker 3: of it has to be private and is not Instagram

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Speaker 3: friendly and is really ugly and best done under the

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Speaker 3: supervision of a qualified therapist.

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Speaker 1: You're so quick to point out the deep and painful

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Speaker 1: duality in your life. You don't shy away from the

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Speaker 1: messy truth. I'm curious you're almost ten years from that moment. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: what are the messy truths that you're learning to face now.

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Speaker 3: That it is okay to love what you have and

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Speaker 3: miss what you had. I don't know. I still need

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Speaker 3: to be reminded that my past is present and that

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Speaker 3: that's okay. I was really afraid after Aaron died that

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Speaker 3: I would lose every bit of him, and now I

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Speaker 3: know that that's impossible, Like I could never lose lose,

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Speaker 3: lose him. He is everywhere, and so is that love.

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Speaker 2: Nora. I want to circle back to something that you

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Speaker 2: said about how we feel this pressure to alchemize or

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Speaker 2: suffering into life lessons right away and when you said

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Speaker 2: that it made me think about us and our show,

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Speaker 2: because it's something that we talk about all the time.

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Speaker 2: Danielle and I are always searching for the bright side.

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Speaker 2: We're always looking for life lessons. Yeah, but you're someone

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Speaker 2: who has so much wisdom to share on this and

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Speaker 2: you've walked through it. So what is the alternative? What

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Speaker 2: should we be doing in stead of that?

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Speaker 3: I think that this is another thing that I feel

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Speaker 3: like I'm not a bummer generally, Like I strongly believe

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Speaker 3: that you can have sadness in your story, and that

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Speaker 3: does not make you a sad story. You are not

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Speaker 3: the sad things or the bad things that happened to you,

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Speaker 3: Like you are more than all of that. And we

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Speaker 3: did find so much brightness in this experience, Like the

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Speaker 3: moments of brightness shined harder than they would at any

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Speaker 3: other point. I think when the lights are all shut

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Speaker 3: off someone striking a match of any kind, it feels

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Speaker 3: like you've never seen light before. And I had so

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Speaker 3: many moments like that. The part where it turned unhealthy

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Speaker 3: for me was when I wanted to only see the

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Speaker 3: good stuff at the denial of the pain, which just

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Speaker 3: needs to be felt, like there is no way to

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Speaker 3: fast forward through that. And that is something that's important

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Speaker 3: for me to show my kids too, not that they

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Speaker 3: just have to immediately get up and dust themselves off,

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Speaker 3: but like they can feel the pain without ignoring the

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Speaker 3: joy around them.

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Speaker 1: Okay, we have to take a quick little break, but

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Speaker 1: we'll be right back with author and podcaster Norah Mcinernie.

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Speaker 4: And we're back with Norah Mcinernie.

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Speaker 1: You're making me think of something that I read in

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Speaker 1: your book Bad Vibes Only you say that you're highly

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Speaker 1: suspect of this era of personal development and influencers and

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Speaker 1: like self help gurus.

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Speaker 4: And I was giggling because I love self help.

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Speaker 1: But I as I was reading that, I was thinking,

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Speaker 1: like that is my version, right, Like when I don't

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Speaker 1: know what to do, I turned to Oprah's book What

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Speaker 1: I Know for Sure, and it's like it's an anthology,

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Speaker 1: and I flipped to a chapter when you were in

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Speaker 1: the thick of it?

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Speaker 4: How did you nurture yourself poorly?

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Speaker 3: So badly? I did not take good care of myself.

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Speaker 3: I drank a lot, I did not sleep, I lied

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Speaker 3: and told everybody I was fine when I wasn't. And

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Speaker 3: it took me a really long time to even go

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Speaker 3: to therapy, and a part of that was I had

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Speaker 3: never really been. It seemed impossible for me to find

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Speaker 3: a therapist, call them, make an appointment, go to it,

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Speaker 3: talk to them, and then continue. That cycle was so

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Speaker 3: overwhelming for me.

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Speaker 2: I feel like I don't really know how to be

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Speaker 2: a good friend whenever someone is going through grief. I

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Speaker 2: think there have been times when I've done an okay job.

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Speaker 2: There's times when I've failed miserably and I just didn't

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Speaker 2: know what to say or do. So I kind of

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Speaker 2: pulled back, Yeah, what does it look like to be

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Speaker 2: a good friend and walk alongside someone who's experiencing loss.

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Speaker 3: That's normal and it's not too late even now. I

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Speaker 3: he also was bad at it. One of my friends

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Speaker 3: lost his dad. We were in our early twenties, and

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Speaker 3: I did all the things that I was taught to do.

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Speaker 3: I went to the wake, go into the funeral. I

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Speaker 3: maybe cooked a hot dish, I wrote a card, done,

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Speaker 3: and then I never asked about his dad ever again. Ever.

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Speaker 3: In fact, I didn't even talk about my own dad.

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Speaker 3: I was like, we just won't talk about dads. You

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Speaker 3: won't ever be sad about it. Great, and when my

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Speaker 3: dad died. I called him right away and I was like,

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Speaker 3: I can't believe I never asked you about your dad.

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Speaker 3: Oh my god, I can't believe you're walking around this

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Speaker 3: world without a dad. It's the weirdest thing in the world.

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Speaker 3: You cannot overestimate the power of just showing up and

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Speaker 3: shutting up. You don't have to know what to say,

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Speaker 3: just showing up and being like, I'm sorry, I don't

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Speaker 3: know what to say, but I'm here. Don't ask what

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Speaker 3: can I do that gives that person a job, But

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Speaker 3: just do a thing and risk them not appreciating it.

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Speaker 3: I had a friend who texted me and was like,

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Speaker 3: I'm at Costco and I'm buying you butter milk, paper towels,

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Speaker 3: and I'm gonna leave it on your backstep. You don't

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Speaker 3: have to open the door, so I didn't have to

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Speaker 3: say yes or now, you know, because I would have

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Speaker 3: said no, even though I probably had nothing in my

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Speaker 3: fridge at the time. And she kept doing that, and

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Speaker 3: she sat with me and allowed me to just exist.

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Speaker 3: And I still think about that, like she just did

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Speaker 3: a thing, just a thing that she could do, and

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Speaker 3: that she did do.

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Speaker 1: There's such an underestimation of being a witness to somebody's pain. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know you're remarried to your husband, Matthew. Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: I love the serendipity of how you met.

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Speaker 4: Will you share that story with people?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I gotta say I never would have met him

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Speaker 3: on a nap because I just simply would have not

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Speaker 3: swiped right on a five eleven divorced dad of like

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Speaker 3: a teen and a tween. I would have been like, no,

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Speaker 3: thank you, no, no no. But I was in the

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Speaker 3: backyard of my friend Moe, who is also a widow,

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Speaker 3: and we were burning things, you know, phils from our husband,

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Speaker 3: explanation of benefits from an insurance companies, just burning that

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Speaker 3: kind of stuff in the backyard and her back gate opened.

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Speaker 3: It's like fifty weeks after Aaron has died. I'm so

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Speaker 3: stressed out. I can't even turn my head, Like my

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Speaker 3: neck has just totally locked up. And now there's this

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Speaker 3: guy in the backyard and I'm like great, And he

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Speaker 3: sat down. She had those plastic ad her on deck

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Speaker 3: chairs from like Ace hardware, and it just like flipped

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Speaker 3: backwards and his feet like went through the air. He

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Speaker 3: had a glass of wine which was just like an

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Speaker 3: arc of wine. And I laughed so hard I had

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Speaker 3: not laughed in like a year. And he went inside,

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Speaker 3: got cleaned up, came out, and then he just listened

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Speaker 3: to me in mo talk for like three hours about

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Speaker 3: our feelings, and he just nodded and listened. And then

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Speaker 3: finally I was like, what's your deal. I didn't think like, oh,

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Speaker 3: I'm going to fall in love again. I wanted to

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Speaker 3: be around him, but I didn't know why. And now

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Speaker 3: I'm around him all the time.

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Speaker 4: So I love that story.

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Speaker 1: Well, you have another podcast that you're behind the scenes

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Speaker 1: on called Refamulating. So what does refamulating mean and what

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Speaker 1: are the rules of refamulating.

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Speaker 3: Refamulating is the process of rebuilding or redefining what family

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Speaker 3: means to you. So the rules are basically that there

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Speaker 3: are no rules. There was a Pew research study that

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00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:29,600
Speaker 3: I think came out in twenty fifteen that said that

435
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:33,439
Speaker 3: there's no longer a dominant family structure in the US.

436
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,600
Speaker 3: So when I was growing up, it was two parents,

437
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:38,960
Speaker 3: a mom and a dad, two and a half kids,

438
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:43,119
Speaker 3: a dog, and now it could be anything. This is

439
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:48,600
Speaker 3: the first time in history that there is no average family.

440
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 3: And so the family that you have that you think

441
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:56,119
Speaker 3: is like so weird. In my case, a divorce, a

442
00:23:56,600 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 3: and a widow getting married, blending two and one and

443
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,520
Speaker 3: then a little runt to round it out to four.

444
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:08,200
Speaker 3: That felt so unusual, not something I would have ever

445
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:12,280
Speaker 3: imagined for myself because I grew up in a Catholic

446
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 3: community where I don't think any of my friend's parents

447
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:18,800
Speaker 3: were divorced, and so refamulating. The show is about celebrating

448
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 3: the many ways that people can create or define or

449
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:29,400
Speaker 3: redefine their family. So it's featuring real stories of real families.

450
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,359
Speaker 2: I think that's so important to see. Well as if

451
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,240
Speaker 2: you needed just another job, we're going to throw one

452
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,119
Speaker 2: more in there. You're also working on a new podcast,

453
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:43,480
Speaker 2: It's going to Be Okay. I started working on It's

454
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 2: going to Be Okay just as a personal project. Twenty

455
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:51,119
Speaker 2: twenty one and twenty twenty two were really difficult, like

456
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 2: really really dark times for me.

457
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:59,200
Speaker 3: I was overwhelmed and underwhelmed by everything all the time.

458
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 3: I truly just felt nothing and everything and like I

459
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 3: was just engaging with the world through like a wall

460
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 3: of glass brick from the nineties, And my therapist asked

461
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,879
Speaker 3: me to write down something okay about your day, just

462
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 3: like write down doesn't have to be the best thing.

463
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:19,679
Speaker 3: You don't have to be looking for, you know, gold

464
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:23,480
Speaker 3: every day, but like find a shiny penny somewhere. And

465
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 3: I started doing it and it worked.

466
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:26,720
Speaker 2: It really did.

467
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:31,640
Speaker 3: Attune me more to the okay things I think sometimes

468
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 3: I get into black and white all are nothing, thinking

469
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,920
Speaker 3: pretty easily like, well, things are good or they're bad,

470
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 3: and mostly they're just kind of okay.

471
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:42,440
Speaker 4: Would you give it a percentage?

472
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 3: Eighty percent of my days are average and forgettable, I really,

473
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:47,960
Speaker 3: you know, like and then and then ten percent are

474
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,639
Speaker 3: wonderful and ten percent are like awful, and most of

475
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 3: them are just nothing horrible happened, right, nothing great happened,

476
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:58,399
Speaker 3: like that was an okay day. And I started writing

477
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:02,160
Speaker 3: them as like little scenes more than anything else. And

478
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 3: I thought, Okay, let's just start a daily podcast that's

479
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 3: five minutes long where we just explore the okay things

480
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 3: in life, and we'll just do it for thirty days.

481
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,440
Speaker 3: And then we did it for thirty more and now

482
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 3: it's been a year of okay things and our first

483
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 3: episode Aaron's prayer card for his funeral, who wasn't religious.

484
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:29,120
Speaker 3: So I had my friend Chelsea Brink design it, and

485
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 3: it was the sentence that he said to me all

486
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 3: the time before he got sick, When he was sick,

487
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,680
Speaker 3: when he was literally dying, he would say, it's going

488
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,920
Speaker 3: to be okay. And I would say, in my head,

489
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 3: you're wrong and dying and also on morphine, like what

490
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:46,720
Speaker 3: are you talking about? Like you're about to die, it's

491
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:50,240
Speaker 3: not going to be okay. But he didn't say everything

492
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,159
Speaker 3: would be okay, did he. He said it, and he

493
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:57,400
Speaker 3: did not specify what it was. So it could be

494
00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 3: the fact that there is a hum bird right outside

495
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 3: my window, humming along, hanging out, and that could be enough,

496
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 3: you know, that could be enough for today.

497
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 4: I really love the pod.

498
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:13,760
Speaker 1: I didn't know it was named after a saying that

499
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 1: he always said, so it's even more meaningful.

500
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 4: Now.

501
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:20,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, you've been making terrible things for asking for seven years,

502
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 1: and you just recently announced this March that you're gonna

503
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 1: go on hiatus. I don't want to put words in

504
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:29,399
Speaker 1: your mouth, so I'm not calling it hiatus. I just

505
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 1: love the idea of quitting things. I think quitting things

506
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:33,160
Speaker 1: is so underrated.

507
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:35,400
Speaker 2: I think so too, So I want to.

508
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 4: Hear about your choice to step away for now.

509
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, when I started making it in twenty sixteen,

510
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 3: I started working on this not thinking, oh, this will

511
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 3: be my career. I thought, this will be ten episodes

512
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:53,680
Speaker 3: of a podcast that I make and then do something else.

513
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,479
Speaker 3: And because of being in the right place at the

514
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,399
Speaker 3: right time when there were only ten thousand pods and

515
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,399
Speaker 3: not ten million podcasts, and I guess making something that

516
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:09,440
Speaker 3: resonated at the right moment, it turned into something that

517
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 3: I wasn't expecting, something amazing, something wonderful. I get to

518
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 3: go on tours and do these beautiful live shows for years,

519
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:20,879
Speaker 3: and I got to meet people that I would have

520
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 3: never met, like all these amazing people who are just

521
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 3: walking amongst us carrying some big, incredible story, and I

522
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 3: got to tell their story to millions of people. And

523
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 3: first of all, it's the longest I've ever held a job. Second,

524
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 3: you know, like it's a lot to really put yourself

525
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 3: in the path of so much pain for so long.

526
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 3: I reported on and did an episode once on secondary trauma,

527
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 3: not thinking could I be experiencing this. I don't know

528
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 3: how many times you have to google like burnout, Do

529
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 3: I have it? Before you realize yes. And one of

530
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 3: the symptoms is googling burnout Do I have it? So yeah.

531
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 3: I talked to the whole team and I said, who

532
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 3: else is really tired? Like, who else is really tired?

533
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 3: And who would feel relieved if we weren't on this

534
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 3: constant churn of creating beautiful, meaningful and hard to tell stories.

535
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 3: And everyone raised their hand and I was like, we

536
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 3: have to hit the boss button. We have to find

537
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 3: a way to make our jobs sustainable financially end emotionally.

538
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 3: It's one thing to burn your own candle at two

539
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 3: ends and also in the middle a third location that

540
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 3: you didn't know a candle could be lit at. But

541
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 3: it's another thing to bring other people into that with you.

542
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 3: So once I said it out loud, it was pretty obvious.

543
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 3: You know, It's pretty obvious we all need some space

544
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 3: to just exist and feel things and see what else

545
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 3: comes from the quiet.

546
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,719
Speaker 2: Well, now that you have some quiet, and now that

547
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:03,479
Speaker 2: you are in fighting joy and okayness into your life

548
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 2: through your other podcast, what does the bright side look

549
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 2: like for you? Now?

550
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 3: The bright side is presence, like actually being places and

551
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 3: not being so worried about what ball I am dropping

552
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 3: or where I'm supposed to be next, or what I'm

553
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 3: supposed to be doing next or the next thing I

554
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 3: could be doing. The bright side is truly just stillness,

555
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 3: and that's a really unnatural way for me to exist

556
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 3: as a child who is described by her mother as industrious,

557
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 3: you know, not like sweet or like cute, industrious, like

558
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 3: a worker.

559
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 2: You know, go visit.

560
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 3: Your Grandpa's gonna have you moving a pile of bricks. Like,

561
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 3: I'm not used to just existing. Obviously I'm working, right,

562
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 3: I'm working, but I'm just not like when I tuk

563
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 3: my kids in their hamsters wake up because hamsters are nocturnal,

564
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 3: a great pet for children, And I'll be laying in

565
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 3: bed with a kid reading a story and the hamsters

566
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 3: literally wake up and like turn on and leap onto

567
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 3: a wheel and start running. And I would look at

568
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 3: them and be like, oh, that's me, baby, like just

569
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 3: they're not even going anywhere, They're just like then they

570
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 3: jump off like drink some water, and then they're back

571
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 3: on that wheel, and I was like, oh my god,

572
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 3: that's me.

573
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 1: I am that.

574
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 5: Hamster, big hamster energy, big hamster energy. Okay, like bag,

575
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 5: oh god. So now I'm trying to be whatever. What's

576
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:34,479
Speaker 5: the opposite of a hamster koala maybe.

577
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's an animal that's just purely runs on vibes.

578
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 2: Eucalyptus and vibes. That's all they need to be happy.

579
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 3: Yeah. The bright side for me is knowing that I

580
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 3: actually don't have to wake up and leap onto a

581
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 3: hamster wheel, Like I could just ride the hamster wheel,

582
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 3: because so much is happening that I could miss out

583
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 3: on simply by not being present for last week are old.

584
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 3: This kid graduated from college, like is an adult in

585
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 3: the world. Now we've got a kid who's about to

586
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 3: start college. And now we have a kid who's like

587
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 3: an adult, and he got into a graduate school program.

588
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 3: And now I am counseling an adult on how to

589
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 3: take on student loan debt.

590
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 1: I have to be honest, Nora, before you mentioned your

591
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 1: son's college debt, I was sort of thinking you sounded

592
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 1: like a self help guru.

593
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 4: You were sounding very inspirational. But the debt is kind

594
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 4: of a downer.

595
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 3: The debt's kind of a downer. Yeah, But you know what,

596
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 3: it's wild to me that that happened in ten years, Like,

597
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 3: in ten years, we went from having this weird little

598
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 3: like blending family and me being like, Okay, what are

599
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 3: fourteen year.

600
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 2: Old boys like?

601
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 5: You know?

602
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 3: I don't know, Like what's their deal? And so much

603
00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 3: has happened in ten years. We have a kid now

604
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 3: who's joining college, a kid who's graduating high school, we're

605
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 3: going to have a middle schooler, We're going to have

606
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 3: a second grader. And I'm also trying to make choices

607
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 3: for the version of me that exists ten years from now.

608
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 3: I'm trying to actually imagine her, because I couldn't picture

609
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 3: her ten years ago. I couldn't picture this version of me,

610
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 3: And so I'm trying to make choices that make future

611
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 3: Nora's life calmer and more peaceful and more sustainable.

612
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 4: What do you think Erin would think about this version

613
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 4: of Nora.

614
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 3: I still have conversations with him. I can still hear

615
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 3: when I am being irrational. Erin was very chill. When

616
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 3: I am not chill, I can feel him being like, stop,

617
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 3: this is not the thing to worry about. But I

618
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 3: think you'd be so happy, And I think I don't know,

619
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:53,400
Speaker 3: it feels like he is a part of it. But

620
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 3: I think you'd be really, really proud. I think you'd

621
00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 3: be really proud of us.

622
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 1: I feel like It's going to be Okay, so too, Nurah.

623
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 1: Thank you for sharing your time with us on the

624
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 1: bright Side.

625
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. Naura mcinnernie is an author

626
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 2: and podcaster. Her two podcasts are It's going to Be

627
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:17,800
Speaker 2: Okay and Refamulating.

628
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:21,520
Speaker 4: That's it for today's show.

629
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:25,760
Speaker 1: Tomorrow on the show, figure skating icon and ambassador Michelle

630
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 1: Kwan is here talking all about pivots and second acts.

631
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,360
Speaker 2: Subscribe and listen to the bright Side on the iHeartRadio

632
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 2: app or wherever else you get your podcasts. I'm Simone

633
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 2: Boye and you can find me on Instagram and TikTok

634
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:40,800
Speaker 2: at Simone Voice.

635
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 4: I'm Danielle Robe.

636
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 1: You can follow me on Instagram and TikTok at Danielle

637
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 1: Robe ro b a y.

638
00:34:48,200 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 4: Well, see you tomorrow, Yeah,