WEBVTT - Live Episode: Michael Lewis and Malcolm Gladwell 0:00:15.276 --> 0:00:21.716 Pushkin. Hi there, it's Michael Lewis here. You probably know 0:00:21.916 --> 0:00:24.676 that Against the Rules is the first podcast that I've 0:00:24.676 --> 0:00:28.356 ever done, and it probably shows. So I appreciate all 0:00:28.396 --> 0:00:31.036 of you first sticking with it. The first season's over, 0:00:31.316 --> 0:00:33.116 but we want to give you something a little extra 0:00:33.636 --> 0:00:40.436 as a token of appreciation. The writer, Malcolm Gladwell, and 0:00:40.476 --> 0:00:43.796 I had a conversation back in April of twenty nineteen, 0:00:44.436 --> 0:00:47.116 when Against the Rules had just launched. We met in 0:00:47.116 --> 0:00:49.916 front of a live audience at the ninety two Street Why, 0:00:50.436 --> 0:00:53.436 which is this great center of culture and Jewish life 0:00:53.476 --> 0:00:56.076 on the Upper East Side of Manhattan. We had a 0:00:56.076 --> 0:00:57.996 big crowd and the whole thing was a lot of 0:00:57.996 --> 0:01:00.796 fun to do, and we talked about how I got 0:01:00.796 --> 0:01:04.396 interested in not just podcasting, but the quandary of referees 0:01:04.436 --> 0:01:07.596 in American life. We want to give you a little 0:01:07.636 --> 0:01:10.916 peak behind the curtain of producing this show, and also 0:01:10.996 --> 0:01:20.476 a glimpse of the next season of Malcolm's podcast, Revisionist History. 0:01:21.276 --> 0:01:27.676 Yeah right, thank you, Thank you Malcolm for doing this. 0:01:28.876 --> 0:01:32.276 Thank you. My apologies to the audience. I'm the reason 0:01:32.436 --> 0:01:36.556 this is late. I was on subway, yep that I 0:01:36.556 --> 0:01:40.756 feel like no further explanations needed. Michael, I feel like 0:01:40.796 --> 0:01:44.636 every time you do some new project, do you trot 0:01:44.676 --> 0:01:48.156 me out to interview you. And I feel like this 0:01:48.196 --> 0:01:50.516 is like my fourth time doing this. But I've done 0:01:50.516 --> 0:01:52.516 it as much for you, you've done it for me, 0:01:53.316 --> 0:01:55.596 and I'm going to have to do it in September. Apparently, yeah, 0:01:55.596 --> 0:01:57.796 you might have to do it in September. Last time 0:01:57.836 --> 0:02:00.636 we were on the stage, I feel I mortally offended you, 0:02:00.716 --> 0:02:03.236 and I got all kinds of angry, not angry, but 0:02:03.636 --> 0:02:05.916 kind of Several friends of mine who might actually be 0:02:05.916 --> 0:02:09.476 here tonight sent me emails saying chiding me from my 0:02:09.996 --> 0:02:13.316 I didn't add it. I you know, I pursued particular 0:02:13.396 --> 0:02:16.876 lines of uncomfortable inquiry with too much vigor. So I'm 0:02:16.916 --> 0:02:20.596 gonna very not I'm gonna be nice this evening. Nasty 0:02:20.636 --> 0:02:25.676 Malcolms didn't put aside, and we're just gonna get nice. Malcolm. Um, 0:02:25.836 --> 0:02:29.556 let's talk about uh. Just for the record, I don't 0:02:29.596 --> 0:02:32.076 remember any of that well you, but that's that. That 0:02:32.236 --> 0:02:34.156 is I really don't remember any of that. That is 0:02:34.156 --> 0:02:36.356 your great charm is a pleasure to speak with you. 0:02:36.396 --> 0:02:38.476 That is a great charm of genius. I do think 0:02:38.556 --> 0:02:41.916 that you have an ability to sell the most unbelievable bullshit. 0:02:42.516 --> 0:02:45.876 And and and you that you did it. You did 0:02:45.876 --> 0:02:47.676 it with me the last time. And I don't want 0:02:47.716 --> 0:02:49.636 to see just I was offended in any way. But 0:02:50.156 --> 0:02:53.036 Jesus Christ, Malcolm, what do you think you're doing? No, No, 0:02:53.516 --> 0:02:55.996 you're just You're this just proving to the world what 0:02:56.036 --> 0:03:00.476 a what a fantastic wasp you are. That you and 0:03:00.516 --> 0:03:02.396 by the way, you're probably the only wasp in his room. 0:03:05.076 --> 0:03:08.076 Your ability to kind of like Nazi and dismissed and 0:03:08.116 --> 0:03:14.556 explain away conflict is quite extraordinary. Let's get I've spent 0:03:14.636 --> 0:03:17.476 much of my life as the only wasp in the room. Yeah. 0:03:17.556 --> 0:03:20.156 In fact, you're it'll be on your It'll be your tombstone. 0:03:20.276 --> 0:03:24.396 Toyoy I wrote. I wrote this piece for the New 0:03:24.436 --> 0:03:26.596 Republic called Toy Gooy, and it was about being the 0:03:26.636 --> 0:03:30.196 toy boy, about being the one boy in every Jewish institution. 0:03:30.436 --> 0:03:33.996 It made everybody feel comfortable. Uh, nobody cared what I 0:03:33.996 --> 0:03:37.996 thought about Israel. H I could I could work on Passover? 0:03:39.756 --> 0:03:42.956 You know I played that role. But all right, so 0:03:42.996 --> 0:03:45.876 what do you want to talk about? Um? Well, this 0:03:45.956 --> 0:03:49.356 wonderful podcast of yours um and I wanted to start 0:03:49.396 --> 0:03:52.356 with obvious questions that you're going to get it. Every 0:03:52.356 --> 0:03:54.756 time you do any kind of media, they're gonna ask 0:03:54.796 --> 0:03:56.956 you this question, So I thought i'd start with it. Um, 0:03:57.276 --> 0:04:05.436 this transition from writer to podcaster? How was it? What 0:04:05.716 --> 0:04:09.036 you persuaded me? This was a lot easier than it was. 0:04:09.756 --> 0:04:11.476 You really did, which is a lot. It was a 0:04:11.516 --> 0:04:15.436 total lie. So the short answer is it was a 0:04:15.476 --> 0:04:17.156 lot harder than I imagined it to be, but a 0:04:17.196 --> 0:04:18.796 lot more fun than I imagined it to be. And 0:04:18.836 --> 0:04:21.796 it was different, and it was I came to the 0:04:21.796 --> 0:04:26.476 conclusion that some stories are better told in this medium 0:04:26.556 --> 0:04:29.556 than in a book form. For me anyway. Um, And 0:04:29.756 --> 0:04:31.396 you have this great gift to be I've said this 0:04:31.396 --> 0:04:33.076 too many times. You have this great gift of taking 0:04:33.196 --> 0:04:35.676 ideas and giving them the qualities of actions that you 0:04:35.956 --> 0:04:38.796 don't actually even need a character. All you need is 0:04:38.796 --> 0:04:40.556 your ideas to play with on the page, and the 0:04:40.596 --> 0:04:46.596 people become almost incidental. Uh. And I'm not sure I 0:04:46.676 --> 0:04:50.436 meant it is but no, but but it's it. And 0:04:50.796 --> 0:04:53.916 it's Uh. You create the feeling of narrative even without 0:04:53.956 --> 0:04:58.116 the conventional ingredients of a narrative. I can't do that um. 0:04:58.276 --> 0:05:02.276 When I write what is essentially essays material, it reads 0:05:02.316 --> 0:05:04.556 like an essay if I don't have a main character, 0:05:04.676 --> 0:05:06.916 if I don't have a kind of drama that I'm 0:05:06.916 --> 0:05:11.316 playing out. And this, this idea was naturally kind of sash. 0:05:12.036 --> 0:05:15.796 It was a series of it's seventy pieces around a theme, 0:05:16.356 --> 0:05:20.316 and as a book, I don't think it would have cohered. 0:05:20.636 --> 0:05:22.756 But so one of the cool things I found was 0:05:22.796 --> 0:05:26.636 this the voice pulls. Your voice is able to pull 0:05:27.156 --> 0:05:30.756 an audience through a story, even if there's not exactly 0:05:30.796 --> 0:05:33.436 a story, even if it's even if it's not as 0:05:33.636 --> 0:05:35.956 the materials, not as unified as you would like it 0:05:35.996 --> 0:05:39.396 to be. If it was on the page, I found 0:05:40.036 --> 0:05:42.236 it's it's just it's interestingly then they all of a sudden, 0:05:42.236 --> 0:05:44.836 you can hear the character's voices, you know, when you 0:05:44.836 --> 0:05:46.876 put somebody in quotation marks. No matter what you do 0:05:46.956 --> 0:05:50.436 around it, making that getting that sound off the page, 0:05:50.436 --> 0:05:53.196 you can't completely reproduce it. And we have characters who 0:05:53.276 --> 0:05:55.916 just come to life their voices, just just bring them, 0:05:55.996 --> 0:05:58.876 you have to do any work at all. And so 0:05:58.996 --> 0:06:01.836 that was interesting to me. Are you saying to go 0:06:01.916 --> 0:06:03.756 back to I order you to dwell a little bit 0:06:03.756 --> 0:06:07.156 on that idea that there are certain ideas, certain stories 0:06:07.196 --> 0:06:11.996 you that you can only tell this way in a podcast. 0:06:12.036 --> 0:06:13.956 What did you need? So maybe should I just first 0:06:13.996 --> 0:06:15.996 just explained what the podcast is, because it's just came 0:06:16.036 --> 0:06:19.476 out yesterday in the first episode. So it's called Against 0:06:19.516 --> 0:06:23.076 the Rules, and it's about referees in American life. Um, 0:06:24.196 --> 0:06:29.036 and it's the general argument is that the human referee 0:06:29.076 --> 0:06:31.916 is on the run or under assault wherever you wherever 0:06:31.956 --> 0:06:35.396 you turn, except in the cases where the ref's been 0:06:35.396 --> 0:06:37.076 bought by one side, and then he might be very 0:06:37.116 --> 0:06:43.436 comfortably ensconced in a rig system. But um, the there 0:06:43.596 --> 0:06:46.316 wasn't for me. There wasn't one story I wanted to tell. 0:06:46.356 --> 0:06:48.316 There are whole bunch of stories I wanted to tell, 0:06:48.876 --> 0:06:52.196 and they would have felt in an in a book 0:06:52.316 --> 0:06:54.916 like either like a separate story or a digression, a 0:06:54.996 --> 0:06:58.996 long digression, I think, Um, And I wanted to play 0:06:59.076 --> 0:07:01.396 with the argument and I wanted to play with the 0:07:01.436 --> 0:07:04.036 subject matter. But I didn't I didn't have one person 0:07:04.156 --> 0:07:05.956 or I didn't have you know, normally, what I have 0:07:06.076 --> 0:07:10.156 is either either I have I have a main character 0:07:10.316 --> 0:07:13.116 who can teach the audience, and I you know, I 0:07:13.196 --> 0:07:16.756 had seven or eight characters here, and that would have 0:07:16.836 --> 0:07:18.996 been it would have been hard to structure as a 0:07:19.036 --> 0:07:21.596 conventional narrative. So it was interesting to be able to 0:07:21.596 --> 0:07:25.956 do it. This. The other big difference, um is book 0:07:25.996 --> 0:07:28.756 writing is really an individual sport. I mean, it is 0:07:28.836 --> 0:07:35.076 just it's just you and the This is definitely it. 0:07:35.196 --> 0:07:36.756 I don't know how you found it, but for me 0:07:36.796 --> 0:07:38.636 it was completely a team sport. It was and it 0:07:38.676 --> 0:07:41.516 was fabulous. I mean, the editor, the people who were 0:07:41.996 --> 0:07:45.836 Nick Brittell, who made the music, the producers that you know, 0:07:46.396 --> 0:07:49.636 they were all intimately involved to the extent that in 0:07:49.636 --> 0:07:51.596 a couple of cases the producers wouldn't did a couple 0:07:51.596 --> 0:07:56.236 of the interviews. And that was having to having to 0:07:56.476 --> 0:07:59.556 both make work with other people was I think healthy 0:07:59.636 --> 0:08:02.156 for me, but also having to because I don't often 0:08:02.196 --> 0:08:06.516 have to do it, um, but having to satisfy them 0:08:06.676 --> 0:08:08.796 in the course of doing that was interesting. Normally I'm 0:08:08.836 --> 0:08:12.796 just SAT's find me uh. And they were hard to 0:08:12.796 --> 0:08:17.396 satisfy you. They were hard to please uh, And that 0:08:17.516 --> 0:08:19.196 was that was just it was interesting to have that 0:08:19.236 --> 0:08:22.236 friction in my life. Did you feel like pleasing them 0:08:22.396 --> 0:08:27.476 entailed compromises? No, entailed me learning what the hell I 0:08:27.556 --> 0:08:30.036 was doing. I mean that I really that they were 0:08:30.156 --> 0:08:32.396 right and I was wrong. Most kinds of things were 0:08:32.436 --> 0:08:39.916 you wrong about? Well? Did my argument make sense to them? 0:08:40.516 --> 0:08:42.276 Saying that that's a simple one? But but it was. 0:08:42.516 --> 0:08:45.356 Much of it was just structural. It was kind of 0:08:45.356 --> 0:08:51.356 like like what I whether there was, it was just there. 0:08:51.476 --> 0:08:55.556 They had a better sense than I did. I learned 0:08:55.756 --> 0:08:58.116 pretty quickly. But they had better sense than than I 0:08:58.156 --> 0:09:01.556 did about what someone who was just taking it in 0:09:01.676 --> 0:09:05.596 here would tolerate from me, in the way of a 0:09:05.716 --> 0:09:10.276 way of digression, in the way of uh odd structured 0:09:10.316 --> 0:09:12.916 to story, in the way of starting something and not 0:09:12.956 --> 0:09:15.276 coming back to it for fifteen minutes, what I had 0:09:15.276 --> 0:09:18.516 to do to accommodate to make sure that I didn't 0:09:18.556 --> 0:09:22.156 lose the audience. They also had a much better sense 0:09:22.156 --> 0:09:23.796 of what I could leave on the cutting room floor 0:09:24.196 --> 0:09:27.356 that I all my scripts and it was it was 0:09:27.396 --> 0:09:28.956 more like it was also writing a book than writing 0:09:28.996 --> 0:09:31.476 a screenplay, which I've done. It was kind of in 0:09:31.476 --> 0:09:36.956 between all the all the original scripts were twice as 0:09:36.996 --> 0:09:39.516 long as they needed to be, and there was all 0:09:39.516 --> 0:09:41.716 stuff that I didn't see you could remove, and they saw. 0:09:41.916 --> 0:09:44.076 They were really good at seeing which you could pull out. 0:09:44.316 --> 0:09:47.436 So that was different, just having that kind of collaboration. 0:09:49.756 --> 0:09:53.716 But the you know, I this I when I'm moving 0:09:53.716 --> 0:09:55.956 through the world looking for things I'm going to do. 0:09:56.716 --> 0:09:59.116 H you know, somebody will catch my eye and I'll 0:09:59.116 --> 0:10:01.356 open a folder on it and not knowing where it 0:10:01.396 --> 0:10:03.956 will go. When I have stacks of Manila folders beside 0:10:03.956 --> 0:10:06.916 and shelves beside my desk, and a decade ago, two 0:10:06.956 --> 0:10:08.956 things happened that sort of triggered this interest in ref 0:10:09.636 --> 0:10:10.916 and I never knew what I was gonna do with 0:10:10.956 --> 0:10:12.716 and the folder got thicker and thicker, but it never 0:10:12.756 --> 0:10:15.236 emerged as a narrative. And then this medium comes along 0:10:15.276 --> 0:10:17.116 and all of a sudden I could Oh, I had 0:10:17.196 --> 0:10:19.716 no idea. This was something a long time in the 0:10:20.556 --> 0:10:22.516 Do you remember what the initial trigger it was for 0:10:22.516 --> 0:10:24.556 the interest in refereen? Yeah, yeah, yeah, there two things. 0:10:24.836 --> 0:10:29.396 It was right after the financial crisis, and I was 0:10:30.276 --> 0:10:32.756 I'd just been put in charge of the Albany Berkeley 0:10:32.796 --> 0:10:36.796 Girls Softball League travel ball teams, and my job was 0:10:36.836 --> 0:10:40.076 to take these little girls from Berkeley, the all stars 0:10:40.076 --> 0:10:43.316 from the league at age eight, ten, twelve, and fourteen, 0:10:43.756 --> 0:10:46.716 and get them into shape so they could go over 0:10:46.796 --> 0:10:53.436 the hill and compete against Republicans, and my predecessor had 0:10:53.476 --> 0:10:55.236 not done a very good job of it. Yeah, and 0:10:55.436 --> 0:10:57.716 I went to I took it seriously. And so my 0:10:59.116 --> 0:11:03.436 girls were playing. And the first time I started, when 0:11:03.476 --> 0:11:06.716 I opened the file, it started with this. It was 0:11:06.756 --> 0:11:09.436 our first tournament. It was a little place called Rona Park, 0:11:10.356 --> 0:11:12.276 and it was it was a night game, and there 0:11:12.276 --> 0:11:13.716 were a bunch of nine year old girls on the 0:11:13.716 --> 0:11:17.956 field and maybe fifty parents in the stands, and it 0:11:18.076 --> 0:11:21.036 was close, and one of our girls slid into home 0:11:21.116 --> 0:11:23.756 plate to tie the game at the top of the 0:11:23.836 --> 0:11:27.276 last inning, and the Ronert Park, the opposing team's coach 0:11:27.876 --> 0:11:33.116 came out of the dugout and started started cursing up 0:11:33.116 --> 0:11:35.756 and down at the umpire who called our little girl's safe. 0:11:35.956 --> 0:11:40.436 I mean, the language was just unbelievable. And their whole 0:11:40.796 --> 0:11:45.036 fan side started screaming at the umpire. And you know, 0:11:45.436 --> 0:11:47.196 no one on our side, none of the little girls 0:11:47.196 --> 0:11:48.756 and our dug I had ever heard the word fuck. 0:11:49.076 --> 0:11:51.396 And they were they were in awe. They were watching 0:11:51.436 --> 0:11:53.916 this they'd never seen. I kind of loved it because 0:11:53.916 --> 0:11:55.516 it was great. I loved that they could see how 0:11:55.556 --> 0:11:58.196 grown ups actually behaved instead of how, instead of how 0:11:58.236 --> 0:12:01.756 Berkeley parents after the day. But this thing escalated on 0:12:01.796 --> 0:12:05.716 the field, and the coach didn't back down, and the 0:12:05.796 --> 0:12:09.276 umpire didn't back down. The umpire was a woman, and 0:12:09.636 --> 0:12:12.596 all of a sudden, the Berkeley parents started getting raged. 0:12:12.636 --> 0:12:15.676 And so you looked around and everybody's screaming at everybody, 0:12:15.716 --> 0:12:18.276 and most of the people screaming at the umpire. Um 0:12:19.196 --> 0:12:21.596 there was a great Berkeley moment when this voice cut 0:12:21.596 --> 0:12:25.996 through the night and this woman screamed with horrible modeling 0:12:26.116 --> 0:12:29.036 for our children, but beyond But except for that, it 0:12:29.076 --> 0:12:31.436 was like, you idiot, you askhole, you you know, you're 0:12:31.756 --> 0:12:37.636 safe out, you know. And and the umpire finally, the 0:12:37.716 --> 0:12:40.436 coach finally through. The coach out, so you're out. But 0:12:40.476 --> 0:12:44.196 it was his ballpark, so he says, okay, you can 0:12:44.196 --> 0:12:46.796 throw me on he steps outside. He says, I'm now 0:12:46.876 --> 0:12:49.276 no longer in the position of coach. I'm now in 0:12:49.276 --> 0:12:51.676 the position of director of this facility, and you're fired. 0:12:52.756 --> 0:12:55.476 So so he is now at nine o'clock at night, 0:12:55.516 --> 0:12:57.276 and the malls are up in the in the lights, 0:12:57.356 --> 0:13:01.036 and everybody's jaws on the floor that they just fired 0:13:01.076 --> 0:13:04.076 the only umpire. So the game can't actually go on, 0:13:04.516 --> 0:13:07.196 and she doesn't know what to do. She's actually just 0:13:08.196 --> 0:13:11.036 because hey, and just walks out into the parking lot. 0:13:11.036 --> 0:13:13.236 Everybody's just standing on the field. And I thought, this 0:13:13.316 --> 0:13:15.716 is my moment when I'm spoke in the position of authority. 0:13:15.996 --> 0:13:17.996 What am? I sort of followed her out into the 0:13:17.996 --> 0:13:22.356 parking lot and she was weeping, U and uh. I 0:13:22.396 --> 0:13:24.036 went up to her and I kind of like put 0:13:24.076 --> 0:13:26.236 my arm around it as before me too, you know, 0:13:26.516 --> 0:13:29.516 and it was okay to kind of console in a 0:13:29.636 --> 0:13:34.756 Biden like manner, and uh and I said, you know, 0:13:35.716 --> 0:13:39.036 I said, you know, you know, you don't you don't 0:13:39.076 --> 0:13:42.036 have to take that. You know, you really should go back. 0:13:42.236 --> 0:13:43.836 And I said. It was like, is there anybody you 0:13:43.876 --> 0:13:47.196 can call? And she says, yeah, there's an umpire association. 0:13:47.676 --> 0:13:49.756 And it was it was nine o'clock in California. It 0:13:49.796 --> 0:13:52.236 was unbelievable that there was anybody where this place was. 0:13:52.596 --> 0:13:55.076 She gets the umpire Association down the line and they say, 0:13:55.116 --> 0:13:57.876 he can't fire you. We're gonna call the guy who's 0:13:57.916 --> 0:13:59.356 the head of the thing that ended, the head of 0:13:59.396 --> 0:14:02.236 the facility, and we'll get him fired. You go back 0:14:02.276 --> 0:14:04.396 and finished the umpiring and she went right back in 0:14:04.836 --> 0:14:08.556 and threw him out, and the game went on. But 0:14:09.116 --> 0:14:12.916 and then on I started to watch these poor people 0:14:12.996 --> 0:14:15.476 who were who were brought out to umpire nine year 0:14:15.516 --> 0:14:17.756 old girls games, and they were on the on the 0:14:17.796 --> 0:14:21.756 receiving end of constant abuse. And my first question is 0:14:21.796 --> 0:14:25.436 why would anybody even do that job? But my second 0:14:25.476 --> 0:14:29.956 reaction was why why do people behave that way towards umpires. 0:14:30.076 --> 0:14:32.156 I've never felt that way towards umpires. Why do they 0:14:32.156 --> 0:14:34.556 Why do people take out so much of their fury 0:14:34.676 --> 0:14:38.196 on them? Why is that so hard that job? So 0:14:38.276 --> 0:14:43.516 this happens that as I've finished the Big Short and 0:14:43.516 --> 0:14:45.756 and I'm watching what's going on on Wall Street in 0:14:45.796 --> 0:14:48.676 the on the back end of the financial crisis, and 0:14:48.956 --> 0:14:50.916 one way of looking at the financial crisis was as 0:14:50.916 --> 0:14:54.876 an umpiring problem, that refering problem. Uh. There was a 0:14:54.916 --> 0:14:57.556 breakdown of several refering roles, but that one of the 0:14:57.636 --> 0:15:00.116 big ones was the credit rating agencies Moodies and Standard 0:15:00.116 --> 0:15:05.956 and Poor especially passed with refeing. The sec the securities 0:15:06.116 --> 0:15:11.876 that Wall Street brings to market now totally failed. They 0:15:11.916 --> 0:15:14.756 totally failed for a very good, simple reason. They were 0:15:14.916 --> 0:15:17.876 being paid by the people who created the subprime mortgage bonds. 0:15:17.916 --> 0:15:20.996 They were rating, they were on the take, they were 0:15:21.036 --> 0:15:22.836 being paid. It's like being played by one of the players. 0:15:23.756 --> 0:15:31.916 And this umpire briefly was flayed in public, but basically 0:15:32.836 --> 0:15:34.596 was allowed to go right back to doing what they 0:15:34.596 --> 0:15:38.516 were doing without any reform whatsoever. And so I had 0:15:38.556 --> 0:15:41.996 this umpiring file with two umpires, two kinds of umpires. 0:15:41.996 --> 0:15:47.516 One was a very nice woman with some spine, who 0:15:47.556 --> 0:15:50.436 was just trying to do her best and make sure 0:15:50.436 --> 0:15:53.116 the game was paid played fairly, and she was being 0:15:53.116 --> 0:15:56.556 made miserable. And the other were these umpires on Wall 0:15:56.596 --> 0:15:59.436 Street who who were doing their job and a kind 0:15:59.476 --> 0:16:04.076 of who had horrible incentives and were not They were 0:16:04.116 --> 0:16:07.516 not agents of fairness, and the society was enabling them 0:16:07.516 --> 0:16:10.636 to keep going even though they orchestrated, helped to orchestrate 0:16:10.676 --> 0:16:13.636 this horrible calamity. And I just started at that point. 0:16:13.716 --> 0:16:19.596 So I think, you know, like, why do some umpires 0:16:19.596 --> 0:16:22.596 some umpires and positions of strength and wire some umpires 0:16:22.596 --> 0:16:24.596 and position of weakness. First thought, what I was going 0:16:24.676 --> 0:16:26.996 to do is write a sitcom about umpires. It just 0:16:27.036 --> 0:16:29.076 set in the world a girl's softball. But I really 0:16:29.116 --> 0:16:30.396 had no idea. It was gonna do with the material, 0:16:31.116 --> 0:16:34.476 and I just started to accumulate material. And then Jacob Weisberg, 0:16:34.716 --> 0:16:38.356 you're co founder of Pushkin Industries, and I are on 0:16:38.396 --> 0:16:40.556 the hiking trail the year and a half ago when 0:16:40.556 --> 0:16:42.316 we just started talking about this subject, and he said, 0:16:42.316 --> 0:16:44.556 you know, it could work as a podcast. And by 0:16:44.556 --> 0:16:46.676 the time we started, when you start thinking about the 0:16:46.716 --> 0:16:49.356 subject and start looking, when you start looking for referees, 0:16:49.556 --> 0:16:53.116 you see them everywhere. I mean that there was It 0:16:53.276 --> 0:16:55.436 end up being seven episodes, but could have been fifteen. 0:16:56.396 --> 0:16:59.756 And there was a kind of like there was some 0:16:59.836 --> 0:17:01.796 arguments to be teased out, but you had to move 0:17:01.876 --> 0:17:07.316 around in a somewhat haphazard fashion that the podcast structure 0:17:07.436 --> 0:17:09.916 really lets you do. Yeah, can I can? I ask you? 0:17:09.916 --> 0:17:11.996 I want to go back for a second A kind 0:17:12.036 --> 0:17:16.756 of writer early question in this file, after that experience 0:17:16.836 --> 0:17:20.436 with your daughter's baseball team, how much did you like 0:17:21.516 --> 0:17:26.156 write a big how much did you write about that evening? 0:17:26.356 --> 0:17:28.916 I wrote a paragraph about the evening, but that's stuck 0:17:28.916 --> 0:17:30.596 it in the file, and I put on the outside 0:17:30.596 --> 0:17:35.676 of it um umps and uh and chased it and 0:17:35.716 --> 0:17:37.676 I made notes to like I would check at the 0:17:37.836 --> 0:17:40.356 tournament the girls tournaments. I would follow the umpire back 0:17:40.396 --> 0:17:41.676 to his car. They a lot of these guys live 0:17:41.676 --> 0:17:43.436 out of their cars and just talk to him a 0:17:43.476 --> 0:17:45.956 little bit about why they did what they did. Um 0:17:48.276 --> 0:17:51.996 and I saw I'd make notes based on those conversations, 0:17:52.036 --> 0:17:53.356 and I just I was just kind of I just 0:17:53.436 --> 0:17:56.156 kind of Sometimes I open one of these files and 0:17:56.196 --> 0:17:58.716 nothing goes in it. It's just umps. Stick it up 0:17:58.716 --> 0:18:01.196 on the shelf. Maybe that's a subject I will pursue, 0:18:01.436 --> 0:18:03.196 but it just seems to me. I mean, you and 0:18:03.236 --> 0:18:05.556 the more you watch it, if you back away from 0:18:05.636 --> 0:18:08.756 and look at the way this society treats people. It 0:18:08.836 --> 0:18:13.436 just in sports, in the umpiring role, it's bizarre. You know, 0:18:13.476 --> 0:18:16.436 you go to a basketball arena and eighteen thousand people 0:18:16.436 --> 0:18:19.836 are chanting in unison ref you suck, I mean the 0:18:20.316 --> 0:18:24.356 the but there aren't eighteen thousand people on the other 0:18:24.356 --> 0:18:26.396 side who are saying, thank you for making the calls 0:18:26.436 --> 0:18:29.276 on my in our favor. I mean, it's like nobody's 0:18:29.356 --> 0:18:32.916 nobody's ever thanking this person for the cheating he's supposedly 0:18:32.996 --> 0:18:35.436 doing on behalf of the other team of the other 0:18:35.916 --> 0:18:42.116 and the people see in this person injustice where it 0:18:42.156 --> 0:18:45.156 doesn't exist this person has this ability to generate an 0:18:45.156 --> 0:18:48.956 outrage that's out of all proportion to UH to like 0:18:49.236 --> 0:18:53.316 how he's behaving, and um, it's sort of like he 0:18:53.676 --> 0:18:58.236 ends up he ends up at the center of UH. 0:18:59.156 --> 0:19:02.156 I mean, he ends up as a character generally kind 0:19:02.156 --> 0:19:04.156 of unexplored, one of the things that end up on 0:19:04.156 --> 0:19:06.596 the cutting room floor. I interviewed Daryl Morey, who is 0:19:06.636 --> 0:19:11.156 the the Houston Rockets Gym, who I adore, who had 0:19:11.236 --> 0:19:14.676 lots that done, lots of studies about about referees, knew 0:19:14.716 --> 0:19:18.036 their tendencies, knew like where home court advantage was worse 0:19:18.036 --> 0:19:20.676 because the referees are better because referees more like they 0:19:20.716 --> 0:19:23.636 give the home team to call. Had done all his 0:19:23.716 --> 0:19:26.236 work on referees, and I asked him, have you ever 0:19:26.316 --> 0:19:30.276 met him they ever met one of them? No, you know, 0:19:30.276 --> 0:19:32.596 it never even occurred to me that I should actually 0:19:32.636 --> 0:19:34.596 go meet one of these guys and talk to one 0:19:34.636 --> 0:19:39.076 of these guys, that they were completely unexplored characters. Why, 0:19:39.236 --> 0:19:42.636 you know, it's interesting to go back to the paradigm 0:19:42.636 --> 0:19:46.676 you have between the Wall Street people and the Baseball 0:19:46.796 --> 0:19:50.276 Little League Baseball umpires. In one case, the operating assumption 0:19:50.436 --> 0:19:55.756 is the I can influence the rep if I try 0:19:55.796 --> 0:19:58.916 and intimidate her, if I abuse her. In the other case, 0:19:59.356 --> 0:20:01.396 the notion is that I simply buy them off, that 0:20:01.476 --> 0:20:04.276 it was I I do an exaggerated form of charming them. Yes, 0:20:04.516 --> 0:20:09.916 and I'm always wondered why those roles aren't reversed. So 0:20:10.036 --> 0:20:13.236 are there NBA coaches who try to charm referees? And 0:20:13.396 --> 0:20:18.956 are there businesses who who or business people who explicitly 0:20:18.996 --> 0:20:24.276 try and essentially scream at the government referee? So? Um, 0:20:24.356 --> 0:20:28.716 the answer the first question is surprisingly few. Um the 0:20:28.836 --> 0:20:32.556 NBA players that you can't really get the players, even 0:20:32.556 --> 0:20:34.276 the former players won't talk about the rest because they're 0:20:34.276 --> 0:20:37.516 just get in trouble. Um. But Shane Battier, who's a 0:20:37.556 --> 0:20:39.916 friend who played in the NBA for many years, said 0:20:39.956 --> 0:20:42.876 to me it amazed him that no one, ever, how 0:20:42.996 --> 0:20:45.636 seldom people tried to actually be nice to the refs. 0:20:45.916 --> 0:20:48.196 And that's what his strategy was, to be nice to 0:20:48.236 --> 0:20:50.196 the rest of He thought that was an original strategy. 0:20:50.836 --> 0:20:55.276 So the but the the the but but the answer 0:20:55.396 --> 0:20:57.276 the answer in the NBA is one of the reasons 0:20:57.356 --> 0:21:00.476 everybody's really even angrier at the refs, even though the 0:21:00.476 --> 0:21:02.916 refs are getting better is that the refs are getting better. 0:21:02.916 --> 0:21:05.596 They're harder. It's harder to charm and harder and impossible 0:21:05.636 --> 0:21:09.276 to intimidate. They're holding themselves to these objective standard is 0:21:09.276 --> 0:21:11.716 and they're judged by these objective standards and the stuff 0:21:11.716 --> 0:21:14.276 that's going on around them. They're more and more impervious too. 0:21:14.756 --> 0:21:21.316 Um uh. The so the second part is, are there 0:21:22.036 --> 0:21:25.516 do it with browbeating? Feel like Mark Cuban was an 0:21:25.516 --> 0:21:30.916 example the sec Yeah, uh so I think the browbeating 0:21:30.956 --> 0:21:36.116 works in private. Uh but but but what it's so 0:21:36.236 --> 0:21:39.076 much better if you can just buy the reff you know, 0:21:39.196 --> 0:21:41.796 I mean that if you if you look at uh, 0:21:41.836 --> 0:21:43.556 if you look at the way I mean the rate 0:21:43.716 --> 0:21:46.516 that that was, that's such a sweet rather than going 0:21:46.596 --> 0:21:48.476 and scream at moodies and standard and poor that you're 0:21:48.516 --> 0:21:51.276 separate mortgage behinds a triple A, so much better just 0:21:51.316 --> 0:21:53.316 to slip them some money to make, you know, to 0:21:53.316 --> 0:21:56.196 create that incentive so that they're more likely to smile 0:21:56.316 --> 0:22:01.076 upon the securities. But so anyway, this whole thing come, 0:22:01.676 --> 0:22:05.636 it's an interesting The subject got more interesting to me 0:22:06.116 --> 0:22:09.436 and it became more real in the presidential election because 0:22:09.676 --> 0:22:11.836 all because they say the two campaigns that had a 0:22:11.876 --> 0:22:14.436 real energy about them was Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump's campaign, 0:22:14.676 --> 0:22:17.556 and that bottom of both campaigns was the systems rigged. 0:22:18.036 --> 0:22:23.276 That that that it was all about UH referees having 0:22:23.276 --> 0:22:27.516