1 00:00:15,276 --> 00:00:21,716 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hi there, it's Michael Lewis here. You probably know 2 00:00:21,916 --> 00:00:24,676 Speaker 1: that Against the Rules is the first podcast that I've 3 00:00:24,676 --> 00:00:28,356 Speaker 1: ever done, and it probably shows. So I appreciate all 4 00:00:28,396 --> 00:00:31,036 Speaker 1: of you first sticking with it. The first season's over, 5 00:00:31,316 --> 00:00:33,116 Speaker 1: but we want to give you something a little extra 6 00:00:33,636 --> 00:00:40,436 Speaker 1: as a token of appreciation. The writer, Malcolm Gladwell, and 7 00:00:40,476 --> 00:00:43,796 Speaker 1: I had a conversation back in April of twenty nineteen, 8 00:00:44,436 --> 00:00:47,116 Speaker 1: when Against the Rules had just launched. We met in 9 00:00:47,116 --> 00:00:49,916 Speaker 1: front of a live audience at the ninety two Street Why, 10 00:00:50,436 --> 00:00:53,436 Speaker 1: which is this great center of culture and Jewish life 11 00:00:53,476 --> 00:00:56,076 Speaker 1: on the Upper East Side of Manhattan. We had a 12 00:00:56,076 --> 00:00:57,996 Speaker 1: big crowd and the whole thing was a lot of 13 00:00:57,996 --> 00:01:00,796 Speaker 1: fun to do, and we talked about how I got 14 00:01:00,796 --> 00:01:04,396 Speaker 1: interested in not just podcasting, but the quandary of referees 15 00:01:04,436 --> 00:01:07,596 Speaker 1: in American life. We want to give you a little 16 00:01:07,636 --> 00:01:10,916 Speaker 1: peak behind the curtain of producing this show, and also 17 00:01:10,996 --> 00:01:20,476 Speaker 1: a glimpse of the next season of Malcolm's podcast, Revisionist History. 18 00:01:21,276 --> 00:01:27,676 Speaker 1: Yeah right, thank you, Thank you Malcolm for doing this. 19 00:01:28,876 --> 00:01:32,276 Speaker 1: Thank you. My apologies to the audience. I'm the reason 20 00:01:32,436 --> 00:01:36,556 Speaker 1: this is late. I was on subway, yep that I 21 00:01:36,556 --> 00:01:40,756 Speaker 1: feel like no further explanations needed. Michael, I feel like 22 00:01:40,796 --> 00:01:44,636 Speaker 1: every time you do some new project, do you trot 23 00:01:44,676 --> 00:01:48,156 Speaker 1: me out to interview you. And I feel like this 24 00:01:48,196 --> 00:01:50,516 Speaker 1: is like my fourth time doing this. But I've done 25 00:01:50,516 --> 00:01:52,516 Speaker 1: it as much for you, you've done it for me, 26 00:01:53,316 --> 00:01:55,596 Speaker 1: and I'm going to have to do it in September. Apparently, yeah, 27 00:01:55,596 --> 00:01:57,796 Speaker 1: you might have to do it in September. Last time 28 00:01:57,836 --> 00:02:00,636 Speaker 1: we were on the stage, I feel I mortally offended you, 29 00:02:00,716 --> 00:02:03,236 Speaker 1: and I got all kinds of angry, not angry, but 30 00:02:03,636 --> 00:02:05,916 Speaker 1: kind of Several friends of mine who might actually be 31 00:02:05,916 --> 00:02:09,476 Speaker 1: here tonight sent me emails saying chiding me from my 32 00:02:09,996 --> 00:02:13,316 Speaker 1: I didn't add it. I you know, I pursued particular 33 00:02:13,396 --> 00:02:16,876 Speaker 1: lines of uncomfortable inquiry with too much vigor. So I'm 34 00:02:16,916 --> 00:02:20,596 Speaker 1: gonna very not I'm gonna be nice this evening. Nasty 35 00:02:20,636 --> 00:02:25,676 Speaker 1: Malcolms didn't put aside, and we're just gonna get nice. Malcolm. Um, 36 00:02:25,836 --> 00:02:29,556 Speaker 1: let's talk about uh. Just for the record, I don't 37 00:02:29,596 --> 00:02:32,076 Speaker 1: remember any of that well you, but that's that. That 38 00:02:32,236 --> 00:02:34,156 Speaker 1: is I really don't remember any of that. That is 39 00:02:34,156 --> 00:02:36,356 Speaker 1: your great charm is a pleasure to speak with you. 40 00:02:36,396 --> 00:02:38,476 Speaker 1: That is a great charm of genius. I do think 41 00:02:38,556 --> 00:02:41,916 Speaker 1: that you have an ability to sell the most unbelievable bullshit. 42 00:02:42,516 --> 00:02:45,876 Speaker 1: And and and you that you did it. You did 43 00:02:45,876 --> 00:02:47,676 Speaker 1: it with me the last time. And I don't want 44 00:02:47,716 --> 00:02:49,636 Speaker 1: to see just I was offended in any way. But 45 00:02:50,156 --> 00:02:53,036 Speaker 1: Jesus Christ, Malcolm, what do you think you're doing? No, No, 46 00:02:53,516 --> 00:02:55,996 Speaker 1: you're just You're this just proving to the world what 47 00:02:56,036 --> 00:03:00,476 Speaker 1: a what a fantastic wasp you are. That you and 48 00:03:00,516 --> 00:03:02,396 Speaker 1: by the way, you're probably the only wasp in his room. 49 00:03:05,076 --> 00:03:08,076 Speaker 1: Your ability to kind of like Nazi and dismissed and 50 00:03:08,116 --> 00:03:14,556 Speaker 1: explain away conflict is quite extraordinary. Let's get I've spent 51 00:03:14,636 --> 00:03:17,476 Speaker 1: much of my life as the only wasp in the room. Yeah. 52 00:03:17,556 --> 00:03:20,156 Speaker 1: In fact, you're it'll be on your It'll be your tombstone. 53 00:03:20,276 --> 00:03:24,396 Speaker 1: Toyoy I wrote. I wrote this piece for the New 54 00:03:24,436 --> 00:03:26,596 Speaker 1: Republic called Toy Gooy, and it was about being the 55 00:03:26,636 --> 00:03:30,196 Speaker 1: toy boy, about being the one boy in every Jewish institution. 56 00:03:30,436 --> 00:03:33,996 Speaker 1: It made everybody feel comfortable. Uh, nobody cared what I 57 00:03:33,996 --> 00:03:37,996 Speaker 1: thought about Israel. H I could I could work on Passover? 58 00:03:39,756 --> 00:03:42,956 Speaker 1: You know I played that role. But all right, so 59 00:03:42,996 --> 00:03:45,876 Speaker 1: what do you want to talk about? Um? Well, this 60 00:03:45,956 --> 00:03:49,356 Speaker 1: wonderful podcast of yours um and I wanted to start 61 00:03:49,396 --> 00:03:52,356 Speaker 1: with obvious questions that you're going to get it. Every 62 00:03:52,356 --> 00:03:54,756 Speaker 1: time you do any kind of media, they're gonna ask 63 00:03:54,796 --> 00:03:56,956 Speaker 1: you this question, So I thought i'd start with it. Um, 64 00:03:57,276 --> 00:04:05,436 Speaker 1: this transition from writer to podcaster? How was it? What 65 00:04:05,716 --> 00:04:09,036 Speaker 1: you persuaded me? This was a lot easier than it was. 66 00:04:09,756 --> 00:04:11,476 Speaker 1: You really did, which is a lot. It was a 67 00:04:11,516 --> 00:04:15,436 Speaker 1: total lie. So the short answer is it was a 68 00:04:15,476 --> 00:04:17,156 Speaker 1: lot harder than I imagined it to be, but a 69 00:04:17,196 --> 00:04:18,796 Speaker 1: lot more fun than I imagined it to be. And 70 00:04:18,836 --> 00:04:21,796 Speaker 1: it was different, and it was I came to the 71 00:04:21,796 --> 00:04:26,476 Speaker 1: conclusion that some stories are better told in this medium 72 00:04:26,556 --> 00:04:29,556 Speaker 1: than in a book form. For me anyway. Um, And 73 00:04:29,756 --> 00:04:31,396 Speaker 1: you have this great gift to be I've said this 74 00:04:31,396 --> 00:04:33,076 Speaker 1: too many times. You have this great gift of taking 75 00:04:33,196 --> 00:04:35,676 Speaker 1: ideas and giving them the qualities of actions that you 76 00:04:35,956 --> 00:04:38,796 Speaker 1: don't actually even need a character. All you need is 77 00:04:38,796 --> 00:04:40,556 Speaker 1: your ideas to play with on the page, and the 78 00:04:40,596 --> 00:04:46,596 Speaker 1: people become almost incidental. Uh. And I'm not sure I 79 00:04:46,676 --> 00:04:50,436 Speaker 1: meant it is but no, but but it's it. And 80 00:04:50,796 --> 00:04:53,916 Speaker 1: it's Uh. You create the feeling of narrative even without 81 00:04:53,956 --> 00:04:58,116 Speaker 1: the conventional ingredients of a narrative. I can't do that um. 82 00:04:58,276 --> 00:05:02,276 Speaker 1: When I write what is essentially essays material, it reads 83 00:05:02,316 --> 00:05:04,556 Speaker 1: like an essay if I don't have a main character, 84 00:05:04,676 --> 00:05:06,916 Speaker 1: if I don't have a kind of drama that I'm 85 00:05:06,916 --> 00:05:11,316 Speaker 1: playing out. And this, this idea was naturally kind of sash. 86 00:05:12,036 --> 00:05:15,796 Speaker 1: It was a series of it's seventy pieces around a theme, 87 00:05:16,356 --> 00:05:20,316 Speaker 1: and as a book, I don't think it would have cohered. 88 00:05:20,636 --> 00:05:22,756 Speaker 1: But so one of the cool things I found was 89 00:05:22,796 --> 00:05:26,636 Speaker 1: this the voice pulls. Your voice is able to pull 90 00:05:27,156 --> 00:05:30,756 Speaker 1: an audience through a story, even if there's not exactly 91 00:05:30,796 --> 00:05:33,436 Speaker 1: a story, even if it's even if it's not as 92 00:05:33,636 --> 00:05:35,956 Speaker 1: the materials, not as unified as you would like it 93 00:05:35,996 --> 00:05:39,396 Speaker 1: to be. If it was on the page, I found 94 00:05:40,036 --> 00:05:42,236 Speaker 1: it's it's just it's interestingly then they all of a sudden, 95 00:05:42,236 --> 00:05:44,836 Speaker 1: you can hear the character's voices, you know, when you 96 00:05:44,836 --> 00:05:46,876 Speaker 1: put somebody in quotation marks. No matter what you do 97 00:05:46,956 --> 00:05:50,436 Speaker 1: around it, making that getting that sound off the page, 98 00:05:50,436 --> 00:05:53,196 Speaker 1: you can't completely reproduce it. And we have characters who 99 00:05:53,276 --> 00:05:55,916 Speaker 1: just come to life their voices, just just bring them, 100 00:05:55,996 --> 00:05:58,876 Speaker 1: you have to do any work at all. And so 101 00:05:58,996 --> 00:06:01,836 Speaker 1: that was interesting to me. Are you saying to go 102 00:06:01,916 --> 00:06:03,756 Speaker 1: back to I order you to dwell a little bit 103 00:06:03,756 --> 00:06:07,156 Speaker 1: on that idea that there are certain ideas, certain stories 104 00:06:07,196 --> 00:06:11,996 Speaker 1: you that you can only tell this way in a podcast. 105 00:06:12,036 --> 00:06:13,956 Speaker 1: What did you need? So maybe should I just first 106 00:06:13,996 --> 00:06:15,996 Speaker 1: just explained what the podcast is, because it's just came 107 00:06:16,036 --> 00:06:19,476 Speaker 1: out yesterday in the first episode. So it's called Against 108 00:06:19,516 --> 00:06:23,076 Speaker 1: the Rules, and it's about referees in American life. Um, 109 00:06:24,196 --> 00:06:29,036 Speaker 1: and it's the general argument is that the human referee 110 00:06:29,076 --> 00:06:31,916 Speaker 1: is on the run or under assault wherever you wherever 111 00:06:31,956 --> 00:06:35,396 Speaker 1: you turn, except in the cases where the ref's been 112 00:06:35,396 --> 00:06:37,076 Speaker 1: bought by one side, and then he might be very 113 00:06:37,116 --> 00:06:43,436 Speaker 1: comfortably ensconced in a rig system. But um, the there 114 00:06:43,596 --> 00:06:46,316 Speaker 1: wasn't for me. There wasn't one story I wanted to tell. 115 00:06:46,356 --> 00:06:48,316 Speaker 1: There are whole bunch of stories I wanted to tell, 116 00:06:48,876 --> 00:06:52,196 Speaker 1: and they would have felt in an in a book 117 00:06:52,316 --> 00:06:54,916 Speaker 1: like either like a separate story or a digression, a 118 00:06:54,996 --> 00:06:58,996 Speaker 1: long digression, I think, Um, And I wanted to play 119 00:06:59,076 --> 00:07:01,396 Speaker 1: with the argument and I wanted to play with the 120 00:07:01,436 --> 00:07:04,036 Speaker 1: subject matter. But I didn't I didn't have one person 121 00:07:04,156 --> 00:07:05,956 Speaker 1: or I didn't have you know, normally, what I have 122 00:07:06,076 --> 00:07:10,156 Speaker 1: is either either I have I have a main character 123 00:07:10,316 --> 00:07:13,116 Speaker 1: who can teach the audience, and I you know, I 124 00:07:13,196 --> 00:07:16,756 Speaker 1: had seven or eight characters here, and that would have 125 00:07:16,836 --> 00:07:18,996 Speaker 1: been it would have been hard to structure as a 126 00:07:19,036 --> 00:07:21,596 Speaker 1: conventional narrative. So it was interesting to be able to 127 00:07:21,596 --> 00:07:25,956 Speaker 1: do it. This. The other big difference, um is book 128 00:07:25,996 --> 00:07:28,756 Speaker 1: writing is really an individual sport. I mean, it is 129 00:07:28,836 --> 00:07:35,076 Speaker 1: just it's just you and the This is definitely it. 130 00:07:35,196 --> 00:07:36,756 Speaker 1: I don't know how you found it, but for me 131 00:07:36,796 --> 00:07:38,636 Speaker 1: it was completely a team sport. It was and it 132 00:07:38,676 --> 00:07:41,516 Speaker 1: was fabulous. I mean, the editor, the people who were 133 00:07:41,996 --> 00:07:45,836 Speaker 1: Nick Brittell, who made the music, the producers that you know, 134 00:07:46,396 --> 00:07:49,636 Speaker 1: they were all intimately involved to the extent that in 135 00:07:49,636 --> 00:07:51,596 Speaker 1: a couple of cases the producers wouldn't did a couple 136 00:07:51,596 --> 00:07:56,236 Speaker 1: of the interviews. And that was having to having to 137 00:07:56,476 --> 00:07:59,556 Speaker 1: both make work with other people was I think healthy 138 00:07:59,636 --> 00:08:02,156 Speaker 1: for me, but also having to because I don't often 139 00:08:02,196 --> 00:08:06,516 Speaker 1: have to do it, um, but having to satisfy them 140 00:08:06,676 --> 00:08:08,796 Speaker 1: in the course of doing that was interesting. Normally I'm 141 00:08:08,836 --> 00:08:12,796 Speaker 1: just SAT's find me uh. And they were hard to 142 00:08:12,796 --> 00:08:17,396 Speaker 1: satisfy you. They were hard to please uh, And that 143 00:08:17,516 --> 00:08:19,196 Speaker 1: was that was just it was interesting to have that 144 00:08:19,236 --> 00:08:22,236 Speaker 1: friction in my life. Did you feel like pleasing them 145 00:08:22,396 --> 00:08:27,476 Speaker 1: entailed compromises? No, entailed me learning what the hell I 146 00:08:27,556 --> 00:08:30,036 Speaker 1: was doing. I mean that I really that they were 147 00:08:30,156 --> 00:08:32,396 Speaker 1: right and I was wrong. Most kinds of things were 148 00:08:32,436 --> 00:08:39,916 Speaker 1: you wrong about? Well? Did my argument make sense to them? 149 00:08:40,516 --> 00:08:42,276 Speaker 1: Saying that that's a simple one? But but it was. 150 00:08:42,516 --> 00:08:45,356 Speaker 1: Much of it was just structural. It was kind of 151 00:08:45,356 --> 00:08:51,356 Speaker 1: like like what I whether there was, it was just there. 152 00:08:51,476 --> 00:08:55,556 Speaker 1: They had a better sense than I did. I learned 153 00:08:55,756 --> 00:08:58,116 Speaker 1: pretty quickly. But they had better sense than than I 154 00:08:58,156 --> 00:09:01,556 Speaker 1: did about what someone who was just taking it in 155 00:09:01,676 --> 00:09:05,596 Speaker 1: here would tolerate from me, in the way of a 156 00:09:05,716 --> 00:09:10,276 Speaker 1: way of digression, in the way of uh odd structured 157 00:09:10,316 --> 00:09:12,916 Speaker 1: to story, in the way of starting something and not 158 00:09:12,956 --> 00:09:15,276 Speaker 1: coming back to it for fifteen minutes, what I had 159 00:09:15,276 --> 00:09:18,516 Speaker 1: to do to accommodate to make sure that I didn't 160 00:09:18,556 --> 00:09:22,156 Speaker 1: lose the audience. They also had a much better sense 161 00:09:22,156 --> 00:09:23,796 Speaker 1: of what I could leave on the cutting room floor 162 00:09:24,196 --> 00:09:27,356 Speaker 1: that I all my scripts and it was it was 163 00:09:27,396 --> 00:09:28,956 Speaker 1: more like it was also writing a book than writing 164 00:09:28,996 --> 00:09:31,476 Speaker 1: a screenplay, which I've done. It was kind of in 165 00:09:31,476 --> 00:09:36,956 Speaker 1: between all the all the original scripts were twice as 166 00:09:36,996 --> 00:09:39,516 Speaker 1: long as they needed to be, and there was all 167 00:09:39,516 --> 00:09:41,716 Speaker 1: stuff that I didn't see you could remove, and they saw. 168 00:09:41,916 --> 00:09:44,076 Speaker 1: They were really good at seeing which you could pull out. 169 00:09:44,316 --> 00:09:47,436 Speaker 1: So that was different, just having that kind of collaboration. 170 00:09:49,756 --> 00:09:53,716 Speaker 1: But the you know, I this I when I'm moving 171 00:09:53,716 --> 00:09:55,956 Speaker 1: through the world looking for things I'm going to do. 172 00:09:56,716 --> 00:09:59,116 Speaker 1: H you know, somebody will catch my eye and I'll 173 00:09:59,116 --> 00:10:01,356 Speaker 1: open a folder on it and not knowing where it 174 00:10:01,396 --> 00:10:03,956 Speaker 1: will go. When I have stacks of Manila folders beside 175 00:10:03,956 --> 00:10:06,916 Speaker 1: and shelves beside my desk, and a decade ago, two 176 00:10:06,956 --> 00:10:08,956 Speaker 1: things happened that sort of triggered this interest in ref 177 00:10:09,636 --> 00:10:10,916 Speaker 1: and I never knew what I was gonna do with 178 00:10:10,956 --> 00:10:12,716 Speaker 1: and the folder got thicker and thicker, but it never 179 00:10:12,756 --> 00:10:15,236 Speaker 1: emerged as a narrative. And then this medium comes along 180 00:10:15,276 --> 00:10:17,116 Speaker 1: and all of a sudden I could Oh, I had 181 00:10:17,196 --> 00:10:19,716 Speaker 1: no idea. This was something a long time in the 182 00:10:20,556 --> 00:10:22,516 Speaker 1: Do you remember what the initial trigger it was for 183 00:10:22,516 --> 00:10:24,556 Speaker 1: the interest in refereen? Yeah, yeah, yeah, there two things. 184 00:10:24,836 --> 00:10:29,396 Speaker 1: It was right after the financial crisis, and I was 185 00:10:30,276 --> 00:10:32,756 Speaker 1: I'd just been put in charge of the Albany Berkeley 186 00:10:32,796 --> 00:10:36,796 Speaker 1: Girls Softball League travel ball teams, and my job was 187 00:10:36,836 --> 00:10:40,076 Speaker 1: to take these little girls from Berkeley, the all stars 188 00:10:40,076 --> 00:10:43,316 Speaker 1: from the league at age eight, ten, twelve, and fourteen, 189 00:10:43,756 --> 00:10:46,716 Speaker 1: and get them into shape so they could go over 190 00:10:46,796 --> 00:10:53,436 Speaker 1: the hill and compete against Republicans, and my predecessor had 191 00:10:53,476 --> 00:10:55,236 Speaker 1: not done a very good job of it. Yeah, and 192 00:10:55,436 --> 00:10:57,716 Speaker 1: I went to I took it seriously. And so my 193 00:10:59,116 --> 00:11:03,436 Speaker 1: girls were playing. And the first time I started, when 194 00:11:03,476 --> 00:11:06,716 Speaker 1: I opened the file, it started with this. It was 195 00:11:06,756 --> 00:11:09,436 Speaker 1: our first tournament. It was a little place called Rona Park, 196 00:11:10,356 --> 00:11:12,276 Speaker 1: and it was it was a night game, and there 197 00:11:12,276 --> 00:11:13,716 Speaker 1: were a bunch of nine year old girls on the 198 00:11:13,716 --> 00:11:17,956 Speaker 1: field and maybe fifty parents in the stands, and it 199 00:11:18,076 --> 00:11:21,036 Speaker 1: was close, and one of our girls slid into home 200 00:11:21,116 --> 00:11:23,756 Speaker 1: plate to tie the game at the top of the 201 00:11:23,836 --> 00:11:27,276 Speaker 1: last inning, and the Ronert Park, the opposing team's coach 202 00:11:27,876 --> 00:11:33,116 Speaker 1: came out of the dugout and started started cursing up 203 00:11:33,116 --> 00:11:35,756 Speaker 1: and down at the umpire who called our little girl's safe. 204 00:11:35,956 --> 00:11:40,436 Speaker 1: I mean, the language was just unbelievable. And their whole 205 00:11:40,796 --> 00:11:45,036 Speaker 1: fan side started screaming at the umpire. And you know, 206 00:11:45,436 --> 00:11:47,196 Speaker 1: no one on our side, none of the little girls 207 00:11:47,196 --> 00:11:48,756 Speaker 1: and our dug I had ever heard the word fuck. 208 00:11:49,076 --> 00:11:51,396 Speaker 1: And they were they were in awe. They were watching 209 00:11:51,436 --> 00:11:53,916 Speaker 1: this they'd never seen. I kind of loved it because 210 00:11:53,916 --> 00:11:55,516 Speaker 1: it was great. I loved that they could see how 211 00:11:55,556 --> 00:11:58,196 Speaker 1: grown ups actually behaved instead of how, instead of how 212 00:11:58,236 --> 00:12:01,756 Speaker 1: Berkeley parents after the day. But this thing escalated on 213 00:12:01,796 --> 00:12:05,716 Speaker 1: the field, and the coach didn't back down, and the 214 00:12:05,796 --> 00:12:09,276 Speaker 1: umpire didn't back down. The umpire was a woman, and 215 00:12:09,636 --> 00:12:12,596 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, the Berkeley parents started getting raged. 216 00:12:12,636 --> 00:12:15,676 Speaker 1: And so you looked around and everybody's screaming at everybody, 217 00:12:15,716 --> 00:12:18,276 Speaker 1: and most of the people screaming at the umpire. Um 218 00:12:19,196 --> 00:12:21,596 Speaker 1: there was a great Berkeley moment when this voice cut 219 00:12:21,596 --> 00:12:25,996 Speaker 1: through the night and this woman screamed with horrible modeling 220 00:12:26,116 --> 00:12:29,036 Speaker 1: for our children, but beyond But except for that, it 221 00:12:29,076 --> 00:12:31,436 Speaker 1: was like, you idiot, you askhole, you you know, you're 222 00:12:31,756 --> 00:12:37,636 Speaker 1: safe out, you know. And and the umpire finally, the 223 00:12:37,716 --> 00:12:40,436 Speaker 1: coach finally through. The coach out, so you're out. But 224 00:12:40,476 --> 00:12:44,196 Speaker 1: it was his ballpark, so he says, okay, you can 225 00:12:44,196 --> 00:12:46,796 Speaker 1: throw me on he steps outside. He says, I'm now 226 00:12:46,876 --> 00:12:49,276 Speaker 1: no longer in the position of coach. I'm now in 227 00:12:49,276 --> 00:12:51,676 Speaker 1: the position of director of this facility, and you're fired. 228 00:12:52,756 --> 00:12:55,476 Speaker 1: So so he is now at nine o'clock at night, 229 00:12:55,516 --> 00:12:57,276 Speaker 1: and the malls are up in the in the lights, 230 00:12:57,356 --> 00:13:01,036 Speaker 1: and everybody's jaws on the floor that they just fired 231 00:13:01,076 --> 00:13:04,076 Speaker 1: the only umpire. So the game can't actually go on, 232 00:13:04,516 --> 00:13:07,196 Speaker 1: and she doesn't know what to do. She's actually just 233 00:13:08,196 --> 00:13:11,036 Speaker 1: because hey, and just walks out into the parking lot. 234 00:13:11,036 --> 00:13:13,236 Speaker 1: Everybody's just standing on the field. And I thought, this 235 00:13:13,316 --> 00:13:15,716 Speaker 1: is my moment when I'm spoke in the position of authority. 236 00:13:15,996 --> 00:13:17,996 Speaker 1: What am? I sort of followed her out into the 237 00:13:17,996 --> 00:13:22,356 Speaker 1: parking lot and she was weeping, U and uh. I 238 00:13:22,396 --> 00:13:24,036 Speaker 1: went up to her and I kind of like put 239 00:13:24,076 --> 00:13:26,236 Speaker 1: my arm around it as before me too, you know, 240 00:13:26,516 --> 00:13:29,516 Speaker 1: and it was okay to kind of console in a 241 00:13:29,636 --> 00:13:34,756 Speaker 1: Biden like manner, and uh and I said, you know, 242 00:13:35,716 --> 00:13:39,036 Speaker 1: I said, you know, you know, you don't you don't 243 00:13:39,076 --> 00:13:42,036 Speaker 1: have to take that. You know, you really should go back. 244 00:13:42,236 --> 00:13:43,836 Speaker 1: And I said. It was like, is there anybody you 245 00:13:43,876 --> 00:13:47,196 Speaker 1: can call? And she says, yeah, there's an umpire association. 246 00:13:47,676 --> 00:13:49,756 Speaker 1: And it was it was nine o'clock in California. It 247 00:13:49,796 --> 00:13:52,236 Speaker 1: was unbelievable that there was anybody where this place was. 248 00:13:52,596 --> 00:13:55,076 Speaker 1: She gets the umpire Association down the line and they say, 249 00:13:55,116 --> 00:13:57,876 Speaker 1: he can't fire you. We're gonna call the guy who's 250 00:13:57,916 --> 00:13:59,356 Speaker 1: the head of the thing that ended, the head of 251 00:13:59,396 --> 00:14:02,236 Speaker 1: the facility, and we'll get him fired. You go back 252 00:14:02,276 --> 00:14:04,396 Speaker 1: and finished the umpiring and she went right back in 253 00:14:04,836 --> 00:14:08,556 Speaker 1: and threw him out, and the game went on. But 254 00:14:09,116 --> 00:14:12,916 Speaker 1: and then on I started to watch these poor people 255 00:14:12,996 --> 00:14:15,476 Speaker 1: who were who were brought out to umpire nine year 256 00:14:15,516 --> 00:14:17,756 Speaker 1: old girls games, and they were on the on the 257 00:14:17,796 --> 00:14:21,756 Speaker 1: receiving end of constant abuse. And my first question is 258 00:14:21,796 --> 00:14:25,436 Speaker 1: why would anybody even do that job? But my second 259 00:14:25,476 --> 00:14:29,956 Speaker 1: reaction was why why do people behave that way towards umpires. 260 00:14:30,076 --> 00:14:32,156 Speaker 1: I've never felt that way towards umpires. Why do they 261 00:14:32,156 --> 00:14:34,556 Speaker 1: Why do people take out so much of their fury 262 00:14:34,676 --> 00:14:38,196 Speaker 1: on them? Why is that so hard that job? So 263 00:14:38,276 --> 00:14:43,516 Speaker 1: this happens that as I've finished the Big Short and 264 00:14:43,516 --> 00:14:45,756 Speaker 1: and I'm watching what's going on on Wall Street in 265 00:14:45,796 --> 00:14:48,676 Speaker 1: the on the back end of the financial crisis, and 266 00:14:48,956 --> 00:14:50,916 Speaker 1: one way of looking at the financial crisis was as 267 00:14:50,916 --> 00:14:54,876 Speaker 1: an umpiring problem, that refering problem. Uh. There was a 268 00:14:54,916 --> 00:14:57,556 Speaker 1: breakdown of several refering roles, but that one of the 269 00:14:57,636 --> 00:15:00,116 Speaker 1: big ones was the credit rating agencies Moodies and Standard 270 00:15:00,116 --> 00:15:05,956 Speaker 1: and Poor especially passed with refeing. The sec the securities 271 00:15:06,116 --> 00:15:11,876 Speaker 1: that Wall Street brings to market now totally failed. They 272 00:15:11,916 --> 00:15:14,756 Speaker 1: totally failed for a very good, simple reason. They were 273 00:15:14,916 --> 00:15:17,876 Speaker 1: being paid by the people who created the subprime mortgage bonds. 274 00:15:17,916 --> 00:15:20,996 Speaker 1: They were rating, they were on the take, they were 275 00:15:21,036 --> 00:15:22,836 Speaker 1: being paid. It's like being played by one of the players. 276 00:15:23,756 --> 00:15:31,916 Speaker 1: And this umpire briefly was flayed in public, but basically 277 00:15:32,836 --> 00:15:34,596 Speaker 1: was allowed to go right back to doing what they 278 00:15:34,596 --> 00:15:38,516 Speaker 1: were doing without any reform whatsoever. And so I had 279 00:15:38,556 --> 00:15:41,996 Speaker 1: this umpiring file with two umpires, two kinds of umpires. 280 00:15:41,996 --> 00:15:47,516 Speaker 1: One was a very nice woman with some spine, who 281 00:15:47,556 --> 00:15:50,436 Speaker 1: was just trying to do her best and make sure 282 00:15:50,436 --> 00:15:53,116 Speaker 1: the game was paid played fairly, and she was being 283 00:15:53,116 --> 00:15:56,556 Speaker 1: made miserable. And the other were these umpires on Wall 284 00:15:56,596 --> 00:15:59,436 Speaker 1: Street who who were doing their job and a kind 285 00:15:59,476 --> 00:16:04,076 Speaker 1: of who had horrible incentives and were not They were 286 00:16:04,116 --> 00:16:07,516 Speaker 1: not agents of fairness, and the society was enabling them 287 00:16:07,516 --> 00:16:10,636 Speaker 1: to keep going even though they orchestrated, helped to orchestrate 288 00:16:10,676 --> 00:16:13,636 Speaker 1: this horrible calamity. And I just started at that point. 289 00:16:13,716 --> 00:16:19,596 Speaker 1: So I think, you know, like, why do some umpires 290 00:16:19,596 --> 00:16:22,596 Speaker 1: some umpires and positions of strength and wire some umpires 291 00:16:22,596 --> 00:16:24,596 Speaker 1: and position of weakness. First thought, what I was going 292 00:16:24,676 --> 00:16:26,996 Speaker 1: to do is write a sitcom about umpires. It just 293 00:16:27,036 --> 00:16:29,076 Speaker 1: set in the world a girl's softball. But I really 294 00:16:29,116 --> 00:16:30,396 Speaker 1: had no idea. It was gonna do with the material, 295 00:16:31,116 --> 00:16:34,476 Speaker 1: and I just started to accumulate material. And then Jacob Weisberg, 296 00:16:34,716 --> 00:16:38,356 Speaker 1: you're co founder of Pushkin Industries, and I are on 297 00:16:38,396 --> 00:16:40,556 Speaker 1: the hiking trail the year and a half ago when 298 00:16:40,556 --> 00:16:42,316 Speaker 1: we just started talking about this subject, and he said, 299 00:16:42,316 --> 00:16:44,556 Speaker 1: you know, it could work as a podcast. And by 300 00:16:44,556 --> 00:16:46,676 Speaker 1: the time we started, when you start thinking about the 301 00:16:46,716 --> 00:16:49,356 Speaker 1: subject and start looking, when you start looking for referees, 302 00:16:49,556 --> 00:16:53,116 Speaker 1: you see them everywhere. I mean that there was It 303 00:16:53,276 --> 00:16:55,436 Speaker 1: end up being seven episodes, but could have been fifteen. 304 00:16:56,396 --> 00:16:59,756 Speaker 1: And there was a kind of like there was some 305 00:16:59,836 --> 00:17:01,796 Speaker 1: arguments to be teased out, but you had to move 306 00:17:01,876 --> 00:17:07,316 Speaker 1: around in a somewhat haphazard fashion that the podcast structure 307 00:17:07,436 --> 00:17:09,916 Speaker 1: really lets you do. Yeah, can I can? I ask you? 308 00:17:09,916 --> 00:17:11,996 Speaker 1: I want to go back for a second A kind 309 00:17:12,036 --> 00:17:16,756 Speaker 1: of writer early question in this file, after that experience 310 00:17:16,836 --> 00:17:20,436 Speaker 1: with your daughter's baseball team, how much did you like 311 00:17:21,516 --> 00:17:26,156 Speaker 1: write a big how much did you write about that evening? 312 00:17:26,356 --> 00:17:28,916 Speaker 1: I wrote a paragraph about the evening, but that's stuck 313 00:17:28,916 --> 00:17:30,596 Speaker 1: it in the file, and I put on the outside 314 00:17:30,596 --> 00:17:35,676 Speaker 1: of it um umps and uh and chased it and 315 00:17:35,716 --> 00:17:37,676 Speaker 1: I made notes to like I would check at the 316 00:17:37,836 --> 00:17:40,356 Speaker 1: tournament the girls tournaments. I would follow the umpire back 317 00:17:40,396 --> 00:17:41,676 Speaker 1: to his car. They a lot of these guys live 318 00:17:41,676 --> 00:17:43,436 Speaker 1: out of their cars and just talk to him a 319 00:17:43,476 --> 00:17:45,956 Speaker 1: little bit about why they did what they did. Um 320 00:17:48,276 --> 00:17:51,996 Speaker 1: and I saw I'd make notes based on those conversations, 321 00:17:52,036 --> 00:17:53,356 Speaker 1: and I just I was just kind of I just 322 00:17:53,436 --> 00:17:56,156 Speaker 1: kind of Sometimes I open one of these files and 323 00:17:56,196 --> 00:17:58,716 Speaker 1: nothing goes in it. It's just umps. Stick it up 324 00:17:58,716 --> 00:18:01,196 Speaker 1: on the shelf. Maybe that's a subject I will pursue, 325 00:18:01,436 --> 00:18:03,196 Speaker 1: but it just seems to me. I mean, you and 326 00:18:03,236 --> 00:18:05,556 Speaker 1: the more you watch it, if you back away from 327 00:18:05,636 --> 00:18:08,756 Speaker 1: and look at the way this society treats people. It 328 00:18:08,836 --> 00:18:13,436 Speaker 1: just in sports, in the umpiring role, it's bizarre. You know, 329 00:18:13,476 --> 00:18:16,436 Speaker 1: you go to a basketball arena and eighteen thousand people 330 00:18:16,436 --> 00:18:19,836 Speaker 1: are chanting in unison ref you suck, I mean the 331 00:18:20,316 --> 00:18:24,356 Speaker 1: the but there aren't eighteen thousand people on the other 332 00:18:24,356 --> 00:18:26,396 Speaker 1: side who are saying, thank you for making the calls 333 00:18:26,436 --> 00:18:29,276 Speaker 1: on my in our favor. I mean, it's like nobody's 334 00:18:29,356 --> 00:18:32,916 Speaker 1: nobody's ever thanking this person for the cheating he's supposedly 335 00:18:32,996 --> 00:18:35,436 Speaker 1: doing on behalf of the other team of the other 336 00:18:35,916 --> 00:18:42,116 Speaker 1: and the people see in this person injustice where it 337 00:18:42,156 --> 00:18:45,156 Speaker 1: doesn't exist this person has this ability to generate an 338 00:18:45,156 --> 00:18:48,956 Speaker 1: outrage that's out of all proportion to UH to like 339 00:18:49,236 --> 00:18:53,316 Speaker 1: how he's behaving, and um, it's sort of like he 340 00:18:53,676 --> 00:18:58,236 Speaker 1: ends up he ends up at the center of UH. 341 00:18:59,156 --> 00:19:02,156 Speaker 1: I mean, he ends up as a character generally kind 342 00:19:02,156 --> 00:19:04,156 Speaker 1: of unexplored, one of the things that end up on 343 00:19:04,156 --> 00:19:06,596 Speaker 1: the cutting room floor. I interviewed Daryl Morey, who is 344 00:19:06,636 --> 00:19:11,156 Speaker 1: the the Houston Rockets Gym, who I adore, who had 345 00:19:11,236 --> 00:19:14,676 Speaker 1: lots that done, lots of studies about about referees, knew 346 00:19:14,716 --> 00:19:18,036 Speaker 1: their tendencies, knew like where home court advantage was worse 347 00:19:18,036 --> 00:19:20,676 Speaker 1: because the referees are better because referees more like they 348 00:19:20,716 --> 00:19:23,636 Speaker 1: give the home team to call. Had done all his 349 00:19:23,716 --> 00:19:26,236 Speaker 1: work on referees, and I asked him, have you ever 350 00:19:26,316 --> 00:19:30,276 Speaker 1: met him they ever met one of them? No, you know, 351 00:19:30,276 --> 00:19:32,596 Speaker 1: it never even occurred to me that I should actually 352 00:19:32,636 --> 00:19:34,596 Speaker 1: go meet one of these guys and talk to one 353 00:19:34,636 --> 00:19:39,076 Speaker 1: of these guys, that they were completely unexplored characters. Why, 354 00:19:39,236 --> 00:19:42,636 Speaker 1: you know, it's interesting to go back to the paradigm 355 00:19:42,636 --> 00:19:46,676 Speaker 1: you have between the Wall Street people and the Baseball 356 00:19:46,796 --> 00:19:50,276 Speaker 1: Little League Baseball umpires. In one case, the operating assumption 357 00:19:50,436 --> 00:19:55,756 Speaker 1: is the I can influence the rep if I try 358 00:19:55,796 --> 00:19:58,916 Speaker 1: and intimidate her, if I abuse her. In the other case, 359 00:19:59,356 --> 00:20:01,396 Speaker 1: the notion is that I simply buy them off, that 360 00:20:01,476 --> 00:20:04,276 Speaker 1: it was I I do an exaggerated form of charming them. Yes, 361 00:20:04,516 --> 00:20:09,916 Speaker 1: and I'm always wondered why those roles aren't reversed. So 362 00:20:10,036 --> 00:20:13,236 Speaker 1: are there NBA coaches who try to charm referees? And 363 00:20:13,396 --> 00:20:18,956 Speaker 1: are there businesses who who or business people who explicitly 364 00:20:18,996 --> 00:20:24,276 Speaker 1: try and essentially scream at the government referee? So? Um, 365 00:20:24,356 --> 00:20:28,716 Speaker 1: the answer the first question is surprisingly few. Um the 366 00:20:28,836 --> 00:20:32,556 Speaker 1: NBA players that you can't really get the players, even 367 00:20:32,556 --> 00:20:34,276 Speaker 1: the former players won't talk about the rest because they're 368 00:20:34,276 --> 00:20:37,516 Speaker 1: just get in trouble. Um. But Shane Battier, who's a 369 00:20:37,556 --> 00:20:39,916 Speaker 1: friend who played in the NBA for many years, said 370 00:20:39,956 --> 00:20:42,876 Speaker 1: to me it amazed him that no one, ever, how 371 00:20:42,996 --> 00:20:45,636 Speaker 1: seldom people tried to actually be nice to the refs. 372 00:20:45,916 --> 00:20:48,196 Speaker 1: And that's what his strategy was, to be nice to 373 00:20:48,236 --> 00:20:50,196 Speaker 1: the rest of He thought that was an original strategy. 374 00:20:50,836 --> 00:20:55,276 Speaker 1: So the but the the the but but the answer 375 00:20:55,396 --> 00:20:57,276 Speaker 1: the answer in the NBA is one of the reasons 376 00:20:57,356 --> 00:21:00,476 Speaker 1: everybody's really even angrier at the refs, even though the 377 00:21:00,476 --> 00:21:02,916 Speaker 1: refs are getting better is that the refs are getting better. 378 00:21:02,916 --> 00:21:05,596 Speaker 1: They're harder. It's harder to charm and harder and impossible 379 00:21:05,636 --> 00:21:09,276 Speaker 1: to intimidate. They're holding themselves to these objective standard is 380 00:21:09,276 --> 00:21:11,716 Speaker 1: and they're judged by these objective standards and the stuff 381 00:21:11,716 --> 00:21:14,276 Speaker 1: that's going on around them. They're more and more impervious too. 382 00:21:14,756 --> 00:21:21,316 Speaker 1: Um uh. The so the second part is, are there 383 00:21:22,036 --> 00:21:25,516 Speaker 1: do it with browbeating? Feel like Mark Cuban was an 384 00:21:25,516 --> 00:21:30,916 Speaker 1: example the sec Yeah, uh so I think the browbeating 385 00:21:30,956 --> 00:21:36,116 Speaker 1: works in private. Uh but but but what it's so 386 00:21:36,236 --> 00:21:39,076 Speaker 1: much better if you can just buy the reff you know, 387 00:21:39,196 --> 00:21:41,796 Speaker 1: I mean that if you if you look at uh, 388 00:21:41,836 --> 00:21:43,556 Speaker 1: if you look at the way I mean the rate 389 00:21:43,716 --> 00:21:46,516 Speaker 1: that that was, that's such a sweet rather than going 390 00:21:46,596 --> 00:21:48,476 Speaker 1: and scream at moodies and standard and poor that you're 391 00:21:48,516 --> 00:21:51,276 Speaker 1: separate mortgage behinds a triple A, so much better just 392 00:21:51,316 --> 00:21:53,316 Speaker 1: to slip them some money to make, you know, to 393 00:21:53,316 --> 00:21:56,196 Speaker 1: create that incentive so that they're more likely to smile 394 00:21:56,316 --> 00:22:01,076 Speaker 1: upon the securities. But so anyway, this whole thing come, 395 00:22:01,676 --> 00:22:05,636 Speaker 1: it's an interesting The subject got more interesting to me 396 00:22:06,116 --> 00:22:09,436 Speaker 1: and it became more real in the presidential election because 397 00:22:09,676 --> 00:22:11,836 Speaker 1: all because they say the two campaigns that had a 398 00:22:11,876 --> 00:22:14,436 Speaker 1: real energy about them was Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump's campaign, 399 00:22:14,676 --> 00:22:17,556 Speaker 1: and that bottom of both campaigns was the systems rigged. 400 00:22:18,036 --> 00:22:23,276 Speaker 1: That that that it was all about UH referees having 401 00:22:23,276 --> 00:22:27,516 Speaker 1: not done their job. And there was some justice to 402 00:22:27,556 --> 00:22:30,476 Speaker 1: those charges, but that and that's why I thought, you know, 403 00:22:30,516 --> 00:22:33,836 Speaker 1: maybe we could maybe there's maybe this is worth trying 404 00:22:33,876 --> 00:22:37,996 Speaker 1: to do, and it was. We'll have more of my 405 00:22:38,076 --> 00:22:40,916 Speaker 1: conversation with Malcolm Gladwell at the ninety two Streety in 406 00:22:40,956 --> 00:22:48,076 Speaker 1: New York after this break. We're now back with more 407 00:22:48,116 --> 00:22:52,356 Speaker 1: of my conversation with Malcolm Gladwell. I wanted to compare 408 00:22:52,396 --> 00:22:55,476 Speaker 1: notes with Malcolm, who's been podcasting for a while. If 409 00:22:55,516 --> 00:22:57,636 Speaker 1: you listen closely, you'll hear a little bit about what's 410 00:22:57,636 --> 00:23:02,076 Speaker 1: to come in the next season of his show, Revisionist History. 411 00:23:03,196 --> 00:23:06,636 Speaker 1: When you when you made those initial observations about umps 412 00:23:06,756 --> 00:23:11,556 Speaker 1: umpires referees, um, did you think you were examining an 413 00:23:11,556 --> 00:23:15,636 Speaker 1: age old problem or a new problem. The thing that 414 00:23:15,676 --> 00:23:19,716 Speaker 1: I loved about the first episode that came out yesterday 415 00:23:20,436 --> 00:23:24,596 Speaker 1: was I kept on. I was thinking, oh, this is interesting, 416 00:23:24,596 --> 00:23:27,316 Speaker 1: and Michael's going to tell me why we've always had 417 00:23:27,356 --> 00:23:29,876 Speaker 1: this problem. But then you told me no, no, no no, no, no, 418 00:23:30,396 --> 00:23:33,596 Speaker 1: this is new for really really interesting reasons. And that 419 00:23:33,676 --> 00:23:36,436 Speaker 1: was the turn where you cooked me in and that 420 00:23:36,436 --> 00:23:39,556 Speaker 1: that was a non obvious turn. I feel like if 421 00:23:39,556 --> 00:23:41,836 Speaker 1: I had done this story, I would have blown it 422 00:23:41,916 --> 00:23:44,196 Speaker 1: because I would have just tried to prove to you 423 00:23:44,236 --> 00:23:47,676 Speaker 1: to have been around forever and that's not interesting. Actually, well, 424 00:23:47,716 --> 00:23:50,636 Speaker 1: that the refs have been abused forever. Yeah, I would 425 00:23:50,636 --> 00:23:54,916 Speaker 1: have said, oh, you know, what you're observing is something 426 00:23:54,956 --> 00:23:57,196 Speaker 1: the Romans did you know? I would have done that, 427 00:23:57,316 --> 00:24:00,636 Speaker 1: some ludicrous move like that. But the thing I was 428 00:24:00,716 --> 00:24:04,356 Speaker 1: genuinely so prized by the turn where we learn it's 429 00:24:04,396 --> 00:24:07,356 Speaker 1: new and why why it's new? So sports is such 430 00:24:07,356 --> 00:24:10,316 Speaker 1: a wonderful laboratory just because so clean in so many ways. 431 00:24:10,396 --> 00:24:14,236 Speaker 1: But it's new, and it's it's it's it's new ish 432 00:24:14,276 --> 00:24:19,756 Speaker 1: in that the NBA, when Adam Silver became commissioner, he 433 00:24:20,596 --> 00:24:24,756 Speaker 1: backup for the first episode is about the refs, about 434 00:24:24,756 --> 00:24:27,636 Speaker 1: an actual sports ref The only episode in the series 435 00:24:28,036 --> 00:24:30,716 Speaker 1: it's about sports is the first is the first episode, 436 00:24:30,716 --> 00:24:35,156 Speaker 1: and it's about it professional basketball refs um And what 437 00:24:35,716 --> 00:24:41,116 Speaker 1: was interesting to me about that subject is if you, 438 00:24:41,596 --> 00:24:43,516 Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's just just kind of generally 439 00:24:43,516 --> 00:24:49,716 Speaker 1: true sports, combination of technology and unaware and transparency is 440 00:24:49,756 --> 00:24:53,396 Speaker 1: forcing all the umpire and the refereeing to get better. Um. 441 00:24:53,556 --> 00:24:57,316 Speaker 1: And you would think that would cause everybody to appreciate 442 00:24:57,356 --> 00:25:00,636 Speaker 1: the refs more or at least protest them less. Uh, 443 00:25:00,916 --> 00:25:04,436 Speaker 1: But that's not happening, um, especially not happening in basketball. 444 00:25:04,436 --> 00:25:06,156 Speaker 1: It's got from the point of view the refs, it's 445 00:25:06,196 --> 00:25:08,276 Speaker 1: getting worse and worse. It's sort of like more likely 446 00:25:08,316 --> 00:25:11,676 Speaker 1: to need a bodyguard hard to the arena, more likely 447 00:25:11,716 --> 00:25:14,676 Speaker 1: to have really ugly things said in the stand out 448 00:25:14,716 --> 00:25:17,476 Speaker 1: of the stands, more likely to have to throw star 449 00:25:17,556 --> 00:25:19,556 Speaker 1: players out of the game because of things they do 450 00:25:19,596 --> 00:25:24,316 Speaker 1: and say. At the same time, the refereing is clearly 451 00:25:24,356 --> 00:25:31,196 Speaker 1: more objectively accurate. And the thing that do you remember 452 00:25:31,276 --> 00:25:34,556 Speaker 1: Kurt Schilling to pitch up. So there was a moment 453 00:25:34,636 --> 00:25:38,876 Speaker 1: which told you what kind of why objective refereing might 454 00:25:39,036 --> 00:25:44,156 Speaker 1: end up creating a lot of anger in sports. Major 455 00:25:44,196 --> 00:25:49,036 Speaker 1: League Baseball introduced pitch track machines into ball the ballparks, 456 00:25:49,276 --> 00:25:51,436 Speaker 1: and that's the machine that shows you where the strike 457 00:25:51,516 --> 00:25:54,836 Speaker 1: zone is. And up to the point they introduced these machines, 458 00:25:55,156 --> 00:25:58,116 Speaker 1: the strike zone is entirely a subjective matter. What the 459 00:25:58,236 --> 00:26:01,756 Speaker 1: umpire thinks is a strike and there's no real way 460 00:26:01,756 --> 00:26:04,556 Speaker 1: to check him. Now they have measured the strike zone, 461 00:26:04,796 --> 00:26:07,436 Speaker 1: they can determine if the umpire has been after the fact, 462 00:26:07,596 --> 00:26:10,636 Speaker 1: if the umpire has been calling accurately or not, and 463 00:26:10,676 --> 00:26:14,756 Speaker 1: he he's graded on his accuracy he's measured against the machine. 464 00:26:14,996 --> 00:26:18,196 Speaker 1: So there's been this in decades since they've introduced those machines. 465 00:26:18,476 --> 00:26:21,236 Speaker 1: There's been in pressure on these umpires to conform to 466 00:26:21,396 --> 00:26:25,196 Speaker 1: the stint, to the machines accuracy and the way. And 467 00:26:25,716 --> 00:26:29,036 Speaker 1: they have and they'll brag, I only got one wrong. 468 00:26:29,356 --> 00:26:31,636 Speaker 1: You know now, Why they even keep the umpires there 469 00:26:31,676 --> 00:26:33,476 Speaker 1: is another question because the machine could just do it. 470 00:26:33,876 --> 00:26:38,636 Speaker 1: But but the umpires started to change the way they 471 00:26:38,636 --> 00:26:42,676 Speaker 1: call the game in response to the machine, meaning they 472 00:26:42,716 --> 00:26:45,676 Speaker 1: became more accurate. You think everybody would think that was 473 00:26:45,716 --> 00:26:48,356 Speaker 1: a good thing. Kurt Schilling came out of a ball 474 00:26:48,436 --> 00:26:50,876 Speaker 1: game early when he was a pitcher. I can't remember 475 00:26:50,876 --> 00:26:52,276 Speaker 1: who was pitching for the time. He was in the 476 00:26:52,316 --> 00:26:53,996 Speaker 1: Red Sex. I think he might have been with the Diamondbacks. 477 00:26:55,156 --> 00:26:57,956 Speaker 1: Furious because it's performance he had not performed well, went 478 00:26:58,036 --> 00:27:01,436 Speaker 1: into the dugout grabbed a bat and went and destroyed 479 00:27:01,436 --> 00:27:04,916 Speaker 1: the pitch track machine and they find him fifty thousand 480 00:27:04,916 --> 00:27:08,556 Speaker 1: dollars and he and he was angry because the umpire 481 00:27:08,796 --> 00:27:13,036 Speaker 1: used to give him calls that were not strikes before 482 00:27:13,076 --> 00:27:15,956 Speaker 1: they introduced this machine, and he no longer was given 483 00:27:16,116 --> 00:27:19,236 Speaker 1: that privilege. He no longer had the advantages that are 484 00:27:19,316 --> 00:27:25,436 Speaker 1: naturally accorded the stars. And something like that is what's 485 00:27:25,476 --> 00:27:28,316 Speaker 1: going on in basketball. And what's happening in basketball is 486 00:27:28,516 --> 00:27:33,276 Speaker 1: they've tried to introduce a similar spirit of objectivity, and 487 00:27:33,316 --> 00:27:36,356 Speaker 1: they've done it in many different ways. They have they've 488 00:27:36,396 --> 00:27:39,516 Speaker 1: built this five years ago, if for fifteen million dollars, 489 00:27:39,516 --> 00:27:42,676 Speaker 1: they built this replay center in Secaucus, New Jersey, which 490 00:27:42,796 --> 00:27:45,436 Speaker 1: is the site of the first episode of the podcast, 491 00:27:45,916 --> 00:27:51,956 Speaker 1: fifteen million dollars to run direct fiber optic cables to 492 00:27:52,876 --> 00:27:58,276 Speaker 1: every basketball NBA basketball arena in the each arena there 493 00:27:58,316 --> 00:28:02,156 Speaker 1: I don't know a dozen cameras anyway, trying to get 494 00:28:02,196 --> 00:28:05,076 Speaker 1: every angle on the court. And this room in Secaucus 495 00:28:05,436 --> 00:28:09,516 Speaker 1: is one hundred and ten television screens showing the all 496 00:28:09,556 --> 00:28:12,236 Speaker 1: the angles on every court in the NBA. And that's 497 00:28:12,276 --> 00:28:14,796 Speaker 1: all it shows. And so you can't watch, you know, 498 00:28:14,956 --> 00:28:17,396 Speaker 1: you can't watch Homeland on it. You can't. You can't 499 00:28:17,436 --> 00:28:20,396 Speaker 1: do anything with these TVs except watch whatever happens to 500 00:28:20,436 --> 00:28:24,436 Speaker 1: walk onto that basketball court wherever it is. And they're guys, 501 00:28:24,476 --> 00:28:27,556 Speaker 1: they're professional referees in there every night during the season, 502 00:28:28,236 --> 00:28:31,356 Speaker 1: double checking the calls of the actual refs on the 503 00:28:31,396 --> 00:28:35,716 Speaker 1: floor in case the refs make mistakes. And the refs 504 00:28:35,756 --> 00:28:39,396 Speaker 1: themselves are now graded and they're showing their mistakes after 505 00:28:39,396 --> 00:28:41,596 Speaker 1: the game. They have the opportunity to check their mistakes 506 00:28:41,596 --> 00:28:44,556 Speaker 1: if they if they check their judgments, and that's sure, 507 00:28:44,596 --> 00:28:47,116 Speaker 1: they're right. They're trained and evaluated in all kinds of 508 00:28:47,156 --> 00:28:51,596 Speaker 1: ways they've never been before. They are the hiring process 509 00:28:51,676 --> 00:28:54,636 Speaker 1: is more professional. It's just like Gotten used to be 510 00:28:54,636 --> 00:28:56,756 Speaker 1: an all boys network. Like half a dozen of the 511 00:28:56,796 --> 00:28:59,076 Speaker 1: refs twenty five years ago came with the same high school. 512 00:28:59,276 --> 00:29:01,636 Speaker 1: It was just a bunch of kind of chubby white guys, 513 00:29:02,076 --> 00:29:06,476 Speaker 1: mainly Catholic Philly from film Philly. That's right. And now 514 00:29:06,596 --> 00:29:08,876 Speaker 1: you've got they've broaden out that, they've broadened out the 515 00:29:08,876 --> 00:29:11,236 Speaker 1: town search. They got to get in shape. They used 516 00:29:11,236 --> 00:29:14,236 Speaker 1: to be fat, right, everybody else in America is getting 517 00:29:14,276 --> 00:29:16,636 Speaker 1: fatter and the rests are getting better shaped. Uh, Now 518 00:29:16,676 --> 00:29:20,596 Speaker 1: they're buff and and and they're training. They're trained, they're 519 00:29:20,636 --> 00:29:23,476 Speaker 1: being taught about all their biases, the kind of biases 520 00:29:23,476 --> 00:29:25,636 Speaker 1: that kind of in Taversky taught us about. But also 521 00:29:25,956 --> 00:29:28,156 Speaker 1: you know that they're more likely to give the home 522 00:29:28,196 --> 00:29:30,676 Speaker 1: team the call, or they have racial bias that they've 523 00:29:30,676 --> 00:29:32,436 Speaker 1: taught and they've taught to correct for all this stuff. 524 00:29:32,516 --> 00:29:35,436 Speaker 1: How could it be anything but better? But getting better 525 00:29:35,516 --> 00:29:38,516 Speaker 1: does not mean making is not making people happy, it's 526 00:29:38,556 --> 00:29:41,876 Speaker 1: inflaming that. It's it's partly inflaming the situation. So is 527 00:29:41,876 --> 00:29:43,476 Speaker 1: it a mistake stars don't like it? Is it a 528 00:29:43,516 --> 00:29:47,076 Speaker 1: mistake to get better? Then? I mean, is there some choice? 529 00:29:47,236 --> 00:29:50,996 Speaker 1: The world's changed. The problem is now the fans can 530 00:29:50,996 --> 00:29:53,956 Speaker 1: not only see in real time that a mistake might 531 00:29:53,996 --> 00:29:56,196 Speaker 1: have been made, they can see for sure on the 532 00:29:56,276 --> 00:29:59,836 Speaker 1: JumboTron that a mistake was made or might have been made, 533 00:30:00,156 --> 00:30:03,076 Speaker 1: and they can then and then they can captured on 534 00:30:03,076 --> 00:30:05,876 Speaker 1: their phones, and they can tweet it, and they have 535 00:30:06,076 --> 00:30:12,836 Speaker 1: a they have material for outrage. And it's not just 536 00:30:12,876 --> 00:30:16,916 Speaker 1: the fans, the players and so the sense of grievance, 537 00:30:17,076 --> 00:30:20,756 Speaker 1: even though the reason for grievance is clearly declining. The 538 00:30:20,836 --> 00:30:25,676 Speaker 1: reasons for grievance. It is clearly declining. Um, the feelings 539 00:30:25,676 --> 00:30:28,956 Speaker 1: of grievance are going through the roof. So it's becoming 540 00:30:28,996 --> 00:30:31,916 Speaker 1: more fair on a basketball court, but people feel it's 541 00:30:31,956 --> 00:30:34,676 Speaker 1: less fair. Yeah, but I don't think you could fix 542 00:30:34,716 --> 00:30:36,996 Speaker 1: it by making the referees even worse than they are, well, 543 00:30:37,036 --> 00:30:39,236 Speaker 1: they used to be. You know, remember the phrase that 544 00:30:39,316 --> 00:30:41,796 Speaker 1: was common in basketball, the makeup call. Yeah, that's a 545 00:30:41,836 --> 00:30:44,796 Speaker 1: blogny like it. You know that it presumes you know 546 00:30:44,836 --> 00:30:46,916 Speaker 1: you made a mistake. If you know you made a mistake, 547 00:30:46,956 --> 00:30:49,356 Speaker 1: then don't make it u no, no, no no, no, no, 548 00:30:49,516 --> 00:30:51,396 Speaker 1: wait a minute, wait a minute. Whatever. The notion of 549 00:30:51,396 --> 00:30:53,876 Speaker 1: the makeup call was to address precisely the problem you're 550 00:30:53,916 --> 00:30:56,916 Speaker 1: talking about. That other everybody's that some team is outraged. 551 00:30:57,116 --> 00:31:00,036 Speaker 1: And then so the reason that you don't get quite 552 00:31:00,036 --> 00:31:02,196 Speaker 1: as outraged as you I'm talking about in the past, 553 00:31:02,316 --> 00:31:05,316 Speaker 1: the old system. You think you think that it is, 554 00:31:05,756 --> 00:31:07,596 Speaker 1: you think you know the ref as a human being, 555 00:31:07,996 --> 00:31:10,276 Speaker 1: and you say, oh, he will understand that he blew 556 00:31:10,356 --> 00:31:12,236 Speaker 1: that call, and he'll make it up for me in 557 00:31:12,276 --> 00:31:15,636 Speaker 1: some subtle way, and that will so that diminishes my 558 00:31:15,676 --> 00:31:18,636 Speaker 1: sense of outrage. In a perfect world where these guys 559 00:31:18,636 --> 00:31:23,516 Speaker 1: are like robots, so making the right which increasingly are there. 560 00:31:23,516 --> 00:31:26,116 Speaker 1: It's amazing how good they are now. So when they 561 00:31:26,236 --> 00:31:28,756 Speaker 1: on those rare occasions when they do make a mistake, 562 00:31:28,796 --> 00:31:31,836 Speaker 1: there's no expectation of a makeup call. No, that's right. 563 00:31:32,356 --> 00:31:34,556 Speaker 1: So is that I mean there are I mean I 564 00:31:34,676 --> 00:31:37,076 Speaker 1: because I wonder about the I agree with you you 565 00:31:37,076 --> 00:31:39,716 Speaker 1: can never go back. But I feel like when you 566 00:31:39,996 --> 00:31:44,516 Speaker 1: sort of roboticize refereeing in sports, what you've done is 567 00:31:44,556 --> 00:31:47,716 Speaker 1: you've disrupted the narrative of the sport. That you're drawn 568 00:31:48,716 --> 00:31:52,396 Speaker 1: to the sports because it's a story and stories. It 569 00:31:52,556 --> 00:31:54,556 Speaker 1: used to be that the blown calls were part of 570 00:31:54,556 --> 00:31:57,756 Speaker 1: the narrative, not a good part of the narrative. Sure, 571 00:31:57,916 --> 00:32:00,436 Speaker 1: they're part of like what makes the get if the 572 00:32:00,436 --> 00:32:03,556 Speaker 1: game just went smoothly from beginning to end. Or you 573 00:32:03,676 --> 00:32:07,236 Speaker 1: don't want referee era. It's not a positive thing to 574 00:32:07,276 --> 00:32:11,196 Speaker 1: have referee era. It's you to minimize it. You can 575 00:32:11,236 --> 00:32:15,756 Speaker 1: still have a glorious narrative on in any kind of 576 00:32:15,796 --> 00:32:18,556 Speaker 1: conscious without a referee. I think the messiness of the 577 00:32:18,596 --> 00:32:20,436 Speaker 1: sport is one of the things that you think. You 578 00:32:20,476 --> 00:32:24,036 Speaker 1: think the more referee the better. No, No, I'm saying 579 00:32:24,076 --> 00:32:28,396 Speaker 1: that there that we operated for many years around a 580 00:32:28,516 --> 00:32:32,676 Speaker 1: narrative about sports that included the notion of refereere we've 581 00:32:32,676 --> 00:32:34,836 Speaker 1: taken that out. And what we've done is we've disrupted 582 00:32:34,836 --> 00:32:37,076 Speaker 1: the narrative. Maybe we're just going through a period of 583 00:32:37,116 --> 00:32:39,356 Speaker 1: time where we're I think that's right. I think that's true. 584 00:32:39,356 --> 00:32:43,396 Speaker 1: That's partly true, but it's also I mean, you know, 585 00:32:44,196 --> 00:32:45,996 Speaker 1: there's a whole bunch of things going on at once. 586 00:32:46,436 --> 00:32:49,356 Speaker 1: One is that everybody can see the era and replay 587 00:32:49,356 --> 00:32:51,476 Speaker 1: it and focus on it and organize around it in 588 00:32:51,516 --> 00:32:56,156 Speaker 1: ways they couldn't before. Another is that the nature of 589 00:32:56,196 --> 00:32:59,036 Speaker 1: the improvement of the refereeing is it's removing privilege from 590 00:32:59,036 --> 00:33:03,356 Speaker 1: people who can naturally protest the loudest, the stars, and 591 00:33:04,236 --> 00:33:05,916 Speaker 1: they're used to getting the calls, and they're not get 592 00:33:05,996 --> 00:33:07,956 Speaker 1: they can't get the calls in the same way. It's also, 593 00:33:09,516 --> 00:33:12,556 Speaker 1: you know, there was if you go back ten years 594 00:33:12,556 --> 00:33:15,356 Speaker 1: in the NBA, home court advantage was a much bigger deal. 595 00:33:15,636 --> 00:33:17,836 Speaker 1: And it was, and there were studies that were done 596 00:33:17,916 --> 00:33:20,396 Speaker 1: to the source of home court advantage was referee era. 597 00:33:20,516 --> 00:33:22,556 Speaker 1: It was like the referees trying to tilt towards a 598 00:33:22,596 --> 00:33:25,396 Speaker 1: home crowd just to appease them. Now, now, it's not 599 00:33:25,436 --> 00:33:27,636 Speaker 1: that big a deal. But who's pissed about that? The 600 00:33:27,636 --> 00:33:29,436 Speaker 1: people who are in the arena, the people who think 601 00:33:29,476 --> 00:33:32,196 Speaker 1: they should get an advantage because it's their home court. Um, 602 00:33:32,436 --> 00:33:35,116 Speaker 1: but I think against the Even bigger than this is. 603 00:33:35,476 --> 00:33:40,116 Speaker 1: There's the backdrop to all of this is people are 604 00:33:40,156 --> 00:33:43,116 Speaker 1: more and more aware or have a greater and greater 605 00:33:43,156 --> 00:33:45,836 Speaker 1: sense that there's no such thing as neutrality. That there's 606 00:33:45,836 --> 00:33:49,236 Speaker 1: like people are biased. We are we you know. That's 607 00:33:49,236 --> 00:33:51,316 Speaker 1: even though in the case of referees the opposite is true. 608 00:33:51,396 --> 00:33:53,676 Speaker 1: They are now less biased. They are less there, even 609 00:33:53,756 --> 00:33:56,716 Speaker 1: though they're there and they're they've been made aware of 610 00:33:56,756 --> 00:34:00,636 Speaker 1: their biases every which way and try to work against them. Um, everybody, 611 00:34:00,676 --> 00:34:04,796 Speaker 1: it's in the air that, uh, you know, a white 612 00:34:04,836 --> 00:34:07,156 Speaker 1: guy won't be fair. It's fair to a black guy, 613 00:34:07,236 --> 00:34:09,436 Speaker 1: is to a white guy. It's in the air that 614 00:34:10,356 --> 00:34:13,516 Speaker 1: the condom and diversky stuff that people make those kind 615 00:34:13,516 --> 00:34:15,436 Speaker 1: of mistakes. It's in the air that they are they 616 00:34:15,436 --> 00:34:18,236 Speaker 1: favor the home home team, or they favor stars, So 617 00:34:18,796 --> 00:34:22,916 Speaker 1: that there is even as there's a less reason for 618 00:34:23,036 --> 00:34:26,236 Speaker 1: cynicism about what's going on inside the mind of a 619 00:34:26,316 --> 00:34:31,436 Speaker 1: professional NBA referee. There's more awareness, awareness of the reasons 620 00:34:31,476 --> 00:34:36,356 Speaker 1: for cynicism about people's judgment, referee judgment generally. That I mean, 621 00:34:36,716 --> 00:34:39,036 Speaker 1: one of the takeaways from the common Diversky stuff is 622 00:34:39,076 --> 00:34:43,396 Speaker 1: that nobody's like nobody's judgments. You know, everybody's judgments is 623 00:34:43,636 --> 00:34:47,596 Speaker 1: systematically flawed. It was interesting, is the Yes, it is 624 00:34:47,596 --> 00:34:51,516 Speaker 1: the process of investigating. What the process of investigating bias 625 00:34:51,596 --> 00:34:55,196 Speaker 1: does is more than any thing, alert us to the 626 00:34:55,276 --> 00:34:57,156 Speaker 1: uncomfortable fact that there was a lot of bias there 627 00:34:57,156 --> 00:34:59,596 Speaker 1: that we didn't even think about. That's right, we had 628 00:34:59,636 --> 00:35:01,836 Speaker 1: no idea just how unfair at all used to be. 629 00:35:02,076 --> 00:35:04,396 Speaker 1: I was that. This reminds me yesterday I was for 630 00:35:04,516 --> 00:35:06,956 Speaker 1: one of my podcast episodes. I'm hanging out with the 631 00:35:06,996 --> 00:35:09,716 Speaker 1: folks who make the L set, who construct the L set, Oh, 632 00:35:09,716 --> 00:35:14,636 Speaker 1: and they do these biased tests. So they have practice questions, 633 00:35:14,636 --> 00:35:15,956 Speaker 1: which do you all take when you take the L 634 00:35:15,996 --> 00:35:18,396 Speaker 1: set is one set that's all practice questions, and they 635 00:35:18,436 --> 00:35:22,836 Speaker 1: look to see whether different groups have different patterns of 636 00:35:22,916 --> 00:35:26,116 Speaker 1: answering questions correctly, which is something I would never have 637 00:35:26,116 --> 00:35:27,916 Speaker 1: thought about. So there was a question they showed me, 638 00:35:28,396 --> 00:35:31,636 Speaker 1: and it's just this random question about some literary figure 639 00:35:31,676 --> 00:35:36,276 Speaker 1: in the seventeenth century and C, which is the wrong answer. 640 00:35:37,196 --> 00:35:39,916 Speaker 1: All the smartest women taken the test thought was the 641 00:35:39,956 --> 00:35:44,516 Speaker 1: correct answer, Like fifty percent of them got it, said 642 00:35:44,516 --> 00:35:46,796 Speaker 1: it was C and it wasn't c. D which is 643 00:35:46,796 --> 00:35:50,836 Speaker 1: the right answer, was overwhelmingly the male choice fifty percent 644 00:35:50,956 --> 00:35:52,876 Speaker 1: of the band. So here's a question that has so 645 00:35:52,996 --> 00:35:56,436 Speaker 1: there's patterns in the errors in the eras, there's a 646 00:35:56,676 --> 00:35:59,556 Speaker 1: massive pattern in the air, and there's nothing obvious. And 647 00:35:59,596 --> 00:36:00,996 Speaker 1: if they find the pattern in the air, or do 648 00:36:00,996 --> 00:36:02,676 Speaker 1: they think there's something wrong with the question, they throw 649 00:36:02,716 --> 00:36:04,476 Speaker 1: the question out. And I said them, well, what is 650 00:36:04,516 --> 00:36:09,076 Speaker 1: it about this totally anadine question about seventeenth century litter 651 00:36:09,596 --> 00:36:12,596 Speaker 1: that caused all these really smart female test takers to 652 00:36:12,716 --> 00:36:19,796 Speaker 1: answer see? And they're like, no idea. I thought, no clue. 653 00:36:19,796 --> 00:36:22,636 Speaker 1: It just doesn't work like that process. The minute I 654 00:36:22,676 --> 00:36:24,716 Speaker 1: hear that, I think, oh my god, this thing is 655 00:36:24,796 --> 00:36:27,116 Speaker 1: rigged in ways I hadn't even thought, right, right, Yeah, 656 00:36:27,476 --> 00:36:29,836 Speaker 1: So like it's the same process now I'm alert. Before 657 00:36:29,876 --> 00:36:32,476 Speaker 1: I was like, well, it's an intelligence test. So you know, 658 00:36:32,316 --> 00:36:35,156 Speaker 1: you and I both made this turn into this new medium, 659 00:36:35,196 --> 00:36:38,036 Speaker 1: your fears ahead of me. How have you found what 660 00:36:38,436 --> 00:36:41,676 Speaker 1: do you find the differences are from writing this prose 661 00:36:41,716 --> 00:36:46,116 Speaker 1: on the page. Well, it's funny, I've gone in the 662 00:36:46,156 --> 00:36:52,076 Speaker 1: opposite because I don't write books that are character driven 663 00:36:52,956 --> 00:36:56,596 Speaker 1: as much. Now in this medium, I'm really into the 664 00:36:56,676 --> 00:37:01,276 Speaker 1: character driven, So I like, I'm drawn to the fact 665 00:37:01,316 --> 00:37:03,356 Speaker 1: that I can bring these characters to life in a 666 00:37:03,396 --> 00:37:06,356 Speaker 1: way because I'm not ask I don't I you know, 667 00:37:06,396 --> 00:37:08,996 Speaker 1: I'm not being falsely modest. I'm not nearly as good 668 00:37:08,996 --> 00:37:11,956 Speaker 1: as you at bringing individuals to life on the page. 669 00:37:12,236 --> 00:37:15,316 Speaker 1: But if I can get tape, then I can do that. 670 00:37:15,396 --> 00:37:17,556 Speaker 1: I feel like, like I you know, and you can 671 00:37:17,676 --> 00:37:21,316 Speaker 1: capture interactions like there's in one of my episodes for 672 00:37:21,436 --> 00:37:24,156 Speaker 1: next season. I have these two women who are sisters 673 00:37:24,436 --> 00:37:27,836 Speaker 1: who wrote a book together, a really good work of history, 674 00:37:28,116 --> 00:37:30,036 Speaker 1: largely so they can hang out with each other. This 675 00:37:30,036 --> 00:37:32,476 Speaker 1: one has been one is like seventy one is sixty five, 676 00:37:33,036 --> 00:37:36,436 Speaker 1: and they're so insanely charming, and all you do is 677 00:37:36,476 --> 00:37:38,476 Speaker 1: just run the tape and you're in love with it. 678 00:37:38,756 --> 00:37:40,636 Speaker 1: You're in love with them. It doesn't matter what happens next. 679 00:37:40,756 --> 00:37:42,796 Speaker 1: It is like, it is amazing the difference when you 680 00:37:42,796 --> 00:37:46,436 Speaker 1: can hear a person's voice that we have an episode 681 00:37:46,476 --> 00:37:50,636 Speaker 1: at the second episode which you actually edited. Um, it's 682 00:37:50,676 --> 00:37:52,916 Speaker 1: about how hard it is to create a referee, even 683 00:37:52,956 --> 00:37:54,956 Speaker 1: when you clearly need a referee, and it's about the 684 00:37:54,956 --> 00:37:58,156 Speaker 1: Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. But we have a woman who 685 00:37:58,236 --> 00:38:01,636 Speaker 1: is who is just crushed by student Oh my god, 686 00:38:01,476 --> 00:38:04,636 Speaker 1: and to the point where she's a She is a 687 00:38:04,676 --> 00:38:07,236 Speaker 1: public school teacher who with a with a couple of 688 00:38:07,236 --> 00:38:11,796 Speaker 1: little kids, whom whose student loan servicer has basically deceived 689 00:38:11,796 --> 00:38:14,756 Speaker 1: her from from even knowing really about for years, for 690 00:38:14,916 --> 00:38:17,596 Speaker 1: years knowing about a program that Congress created to relieve 691 00:38:17,596 --> 00:38:20,036 Speaker 1: her student loan debt because it paid them to keep 692 00:38:20,036 --> 00:38:22,756 Speaker 1: her in the student in the in the debt. And 693 00:38:22,956 --> 00:38:26,196 Speaker 1: to the point where her she grind has been grinding 694 00:38:26,196 --> 00:38:27,796 Speaker 1: her teeth so badly at night that five of her 695 00:38:27,836 --> 00:38:30,676 Speaker 1: teeth have fallen out, and she's now won't smile. And 696 00:38:31,316 --> 00:38:34,516 Speaker 1: if if I told the story, just if I just 697 00:38:34,596 --> 00:38:38,316 Speaker 1: told the story, you might think I've had my thumb 698 00:38:38,316 --> 00:38:40,876 Speaker 1: on the scale. You wouldn't quite believe it, Like you 699 00:38:40,996 --> 00:38:44,596 Speaker 1: think I was exaggerating. But when she just tells it straight, 700 00:38:45,276 --> 00:38:49,916 Speaker 1: you're weeping, I mean, and there's no question the sincerity 701 00:38:50,036 --> 00:38:53,516 Speaker 1: just just it just jumps out of the off off 702 00:38:53,516 --> 00:38:55,716 Speaker 1: the tape in a way, in a way that I 703 00:38:55,716 --> 00:38:58,916 Speaker 1: would have to try to persuade the reader of uh 704 00:38:59,196 --> 00:39:01,396 Speaker 1: and I don't just you just let her speak and 705 00:39:01,516 --> 00:39:05,796 Speaker 1: it's magnificent, incredibly moving. What can't you do in the 706 00:39:05,796 --> 00:39:08,516 Speaker 1: podcast form? So talk about that story? Did you where? 707 00:39:08,516 --> 00:39:12,356 Speaker 1: There must be limitations. I can't do things you don't 708 00:39:12,356 --> 00:39:15,236 Speaker 1: have tape off. That's the that's the problem. You got 709 00:39:15,236 --> 00:39:16,956 Speaker 1: to go out and interview. You have to have the thing. 710 00:39:17,236 --> 00:39:22,636 Speaker 1: If if it's you just talking, it's far less less 711 00:39:22,676 --> 00:39:27,676 Speaker 1: persuasive than if you've got some someone else you you know, 712 00:39:27,756 --> 00:39:31,796 Speaker 1: it's it's um so that it's it's a constraint. That's 713 00:39:31,836 --> 00:39:34,956 Speaker 1: worse with TV when you have to have the pictures. 714 00:39:34,956 --> 00:39:37,316 Speaker 1: But you can only do so much with your own 715 00:39:37,356 --> 00:39:41,716 Speaker 1: words in this in the narrative form, I think, um so, 716 00:39:41,996 --> 00:39:48,796 Speaker 1: that's your constrained there, uh um But what can't you do? 717 00:39:48,876 --> 00:39:52,716 Speaker 1: Like what stories? When it gets complicated? Yes, it gets hard. 718 00:39:53,476 --> 00:39:56,116 Speaker 1: I could not. So it's hard. It was hard, very 719 00:39:56,156 --> 00:39:59,236 Speaker 1: hard to explain. I didn't even really explain, but I 720 00:39:59,276 --> 00:40:01,876 Speaker 1: tried to explain a collateralized debt obligation in the big 721 00:40:01,916 --> 00:40:03,996 Speaker 1: short it's the most complicated thing I've ever tried to 722 00:40:03,996 --> 00:40:07,596 Speaker 1: explain to anybody and uh, I can't do that. That's 723 00:40:07,636 --> 00:40:09,516 Speaker 1: not possible in a podcast. You couldn't do it in 724 00:40:09,556 --> 00:40:12,876 Speaker 1: a podcast. Uh, you just you just couldn't. I mean 725 00:40:13,036 --> 00:40:15,396 Speaker 1: people would have collision that people listening as they're driving 726 00:40:15,396 --> 00:40:18,996 Speaker 1: would be having crashes on the highway and you you 727 00:40:18,996 --> 00:40:24,236 Speaker 1: you um so because the reader can go back or 728 00:40:24,276 --> 00:40:26,596 Speaker 1: the reader can get slow down, the reader can the 729 00:40:26,636 --> 00:40:30,356 Speaker 1: reader can can paste themselves through an explanation. Um. What 730 00:40:30,436 --> 00:40:33,476 Speaker 1: always breaks my heart is where you finally find the 731 00:40:33,516 --> 00:40:37,156 Speaker 1: person who you think can explain the thing it's going 732 00:40:37,196 --> 00:40:41,476 Speaker 1: to give you tape, and then they're boring, which in 733 00:40:41,476 --> 00:40:44,036 Speaker 1: a book it doesn't matter, right in a book, like 734 00:40:44,116 --> 00:40:46,436 Speaker 1: I feel like that's that is one of your geniuses 735 00:40:46,516 --> 00:40:49,436 Speaker 1: as a writer is you have clearly in your life 736 00:40:49,476 --> 00:40:53,316 Speaker 1: made lots supporting people seem really fascinating. But so I 737 00:40:53,356 --> 00:40:55,356 Speaker 1: would put it in so I'd put it in a 738 00:40:55,396 --> 00:41:01,276 Speaker 1: different way. You're absolutely right that that people's voices kill 739 00:41:01,316 --> 00:41:05,596 Speaker 1: them as characters. Um that you you, you're, you're, You're 740 00:41:05,716 --> 00:41:08,116 Speaker 1: talking to them for five minutes and you think that 741 00:41:08,236 --> 00:41:11,476 Speaker 1: voice just won't works. It's not gonna work. You know, 742 00:41:12,676 --> 00:41:14,876 Speaker 1: there are people in this world. Who I mean, it's 743 00:41:14,876 --> 00:41:17,676 Speaker 1: an amazing it's almost a superpower. Who have an ability 744 00:41:17,716 --> 00:41:20,516 Speaker 1: to walk into a room and kill all interest in 745 00:41:20,556 --> 00:41:23,116 Speaker 1: the room. I mean that I had. I had an 746 00:41:23,196 --> 00:41:25,276 Speaker 1: uncle who had this capacity, and it was he was 747 00:41:25,316 --> 00:41:27,916 Speaker 1: a great guy, and he did really interesting stuff. But 748 00:41:27,956 --> 00:41:30,036 Speaker 1: the minute he opened his mouth, it was like it 749 00:41:30,076 --> 00:41:33,236 Speaker 1: reels like everybody's gasping for air. There's no oxygen in there. 750 00:41:33,876 --> 00:41:36,676 Speaker 1: And it was just incredibly dull, and it was dullless 751 00:41:36,756 --> 00:41:39,636 Speaker 1: listening to him, and you were just relieved when he 752 00:41:39,756 --> 00:41:42,516 Speaker 1: someone else, someone else threw themselves on that hand grenade 753 00:41:42,596 --> 00:41:47,156 Speaker 1: and and the the So it is true that you 754 00:41:47,196 --> 00:41:50,916 Speaker 1: can take that person in print and bring him to life. Yeah, 755 00:41:51,076 --> 00:41:54,996 Speaker 1: I could make my uncle really great in print, but 756 00:41:54,996 --> 00:41:59,076 Speaker 1: but I could not the minute the minute someone heard 757 00:41:59,116 --> 00:42:02,196 Speaker 1: him speak, you'd lose. They wouldn't believe anything you said 758 00:42:02,196 --> 00:42:04,076 Speaker 1: about him, if you know what. The one trick that 759 00:42:04,156 --> 00:42:07,356 Speaker 1: I found, though, is sometimes you think someone's going to 760 00:42:07,436 --> 00:42:12,156 Speaker 1: be boring, but it's because you're in book interview mode 761 00:42:12,716 --> 00:42:15,636 Speaker 1: and podcast interview mode is quite different than what you 762 00:42:15,676 --> 00:42:17,396 Speaker 1: really want to do when you're interviewing someone on a 763 00:42:17,396 --> 00:42:20,636 Speaker 1: podcast is you want them to speculate and free associate. 764 00:42:21,116 --> 00:42:23,716 Speaker 1: So you want to push them. You don't want them 765 00:42:23,716 --> 00:42:27,556 Speaker 1: giving when you're doing when you're doing the book interview there, 766 00:42:27,676 --> 00:42:31,756 Speaker 1: you want them to describe in detail, you know, a 767 00:42:32,076 --> 00:42:36,236 Speaker 1: to ze how this works. Did you walk me through? 768 00:42:36,396 --> 00:42:39,476 Speaker 1: You always use that walk me through. You never say 769 00:42:39,476 --> 00:42:41,636 Speaker 1: walk me through in the podcast interview. What you say 770 00:42:41,756 --> 00:42:46,436 Speaker 1: is what about like imagine this? And then they at 771 00:42:46,436 --> 00:42:49,236 Speaker 1: a certain point they kind of get it. They realize that, oh, 772 00:42:49,316 --> 00:42:52,316 Speaker 1: which is like, it's play, It's play, right, Yeah, that's 773 00:42:52,356 --> 00:42:55,356 Speaker 1: really true, That's really true. I've had this once with 774 00:42:55,436 --> 00:42:58,036 Speaker 1: this love this interview for this one of my podcasts 775 00:42:58,036 --> 00:43:03,036 Speaker 1: with this guy who was a OBGA and researcher in Philadelphia, 776 00:43:03,196 --> 00:43:05,916 Speaker 1: and he gets he's in the weeds on some new 777 00:43:05,996 --> 00:43:09,036 Speaker 1: kind of contraceptive, deep in the weeds, and I realized, no, 778 00:43:09,236 --> 00:43:12,196 Speaker 1: this is usable. He starts talking about the endometrium. The 779 00:43:12,276 --> 00:43:16,436 Speaker 1: endometrium is not working in podcast for him, and you know, follicles, 780 00:43:16,916 --> 00:43:19,476 Speaker 1: and then he sort of says something and I was like, 781 00:43:19,516 --> 00:43:21,676 Speaker 1: wait a minute, this thing you're talking about, why is 782 00:43:21,676 --> 00:43:24,156 Speaker 1: that a contraceptive. He goes, oh, it's not a contraceptive. 783 00:43:24,436 --> 00:43:29,316 Speaker 1: And he goes on this long, insanely interesting totally hypothetical 784 00:43:29,396 --> 00:43:31,756 Speaker 1: thing about oh, I wouldn't calling a contraceptive, I called 785 00:43:31,756 --> 00:43:33,596 Speaker 1: something else. And he gives you this long riff about 786 00:43:33,596 --> 00:43:35,996 Speaker 1: how it's actually this other thing over here, and like 787 00:43:36,116 --> 00:43:38,676 Speaker 1: it's just he just came alive. So because he was, 788 00:43:38,916 --> 00:43:42,516 Speaker 1: this is absolutely right. And we have an episode of 789 00:43:42,556 --> 00:43:47,956 Speaker 1: three is about refs in the culture, like language refs, 790 00:43:48,036 --> 00:43:51,036 Speaker 1: people people who write who are usage panel members and 791 00:43:51,156 --> 00:43:55,836 Speaker 1: dictionaries who they've all been let go, and the people 792 00:43:55,836 --> 00:43:58,196 Speaker 1: who used to write kind of usage manuals. And I 793 00:43:58,236 --> 00:44:00,516 Speaker 1: was we were I was talking to a guy named 794 00:44:00,516 --> 00:44:03,476 Speaker 1: Brian Garner who's one of the characters in the in 795 00:44:03,516 --> 00:44:07,356 Speaker 1: the episode, and he's he's the author of a book 796 00:44:07,396 --> 00:44:11,916 Speaker 1: called uh Garner's Modern English Usage. I think that's what 797 00:44:11,956 --> 00:44:15,156 Speaker 1: it's called. It's twelve hundred pages. It's actually riveting. But 798 00:44:15,236 --> 00:44:17,436 Speaker 1: nobody but at Barnes and Noble told him a decade 799 00:44:17,476 --> 00:44:21,076 Speaker 1: ago it's a defunct category. All of his heroes, their 800 00:44:21,116 --> 00:44:23,716 Speaker 1: books sold millions of copies. There were times where there 801 00:44:23,796 --> 00:44:28,596 Speaker 1: was a time when when the language ref occupied occupied 802 00:44:28,596 --> 00:44:30,396 Speaker 1: a bigger role than he does now. Now now the 803 00:44:30,436 --> 00:44:33,436 Speaker 1: crowd refs the language in and nobody wants to hear 804 00:44:33,476 --> 00:44:37,476 Speaker 1: from the snood um, but he's a great snood. And 805 00:44:38,156 --> 00:44:41,596 Speaker 1: he was just talking about like where are the culture 806 00:44:41,676 --> 00:44:47,716 Speaker 1: is gone, and how he's daily outraged by things, uh, 807 00:44:47,876 --> 00:44:50,916 Speaker 1: that he just can't believe that we're we're becoming this. 808 00:44:51,596 --> 00:44:54,476 Speaker 1: And he said, I got a letter from my bank. 809 00:44:55,036 --> 00:45:00,516 Speaker 1: It said dear mister Garner, semicolon. And he was off 810 00:45:00,756 --> 00:45:05,276 Speaker 1: for like like like for like ten minutes on on 811 00:45:05,876 --> 00:45:08,076 Speaker 1: I called my bank manager. I said, there's a mistake. 812 00:45:08,436 --> 00:45:12,236 Speaker 1: It says dear mister Garner, semicolon. And he says it's 813 00:45:12,236 --> 00:45:16,356 Speaker 1: either a colon or a comma. And the bank manager said, um, 814 00:45:16,436 --> 00:45:18,956 Speaker 1: could you write us a letter about that? And he said, 815 00:45:18,996 --> 00:45:20,716 Speaker 1: so I wrote them a letter and I did, you've 816 00:45:20,756 --> 00:45:24,076 Speaker 1: come to the right place, and wrote wrote I said, 817 00:45:24,116 --> 00:45:27,476 Speaker 1: I wrote them a letter and I cited all the authorities, 818 00:45:27,476 --> 00:45:30,876 Speaker 1: including Garner's modern English usage about where you don't put 819 00:45:30,876 --> 00:45:34,436 Speaker 1: a semicolon after dear mister Garner. And they they they 820 00:45:34,436 --> 00:45:37,916 Speaker 1: wrote him back and said, um, we're keeping the semicolon. 821 00:45:38,596 --> 00:45:42,076 Speaker 1: And and he called him, he said, how he's and 822 00:45:42,116 --> 00:45:44,276 Speaker 1: now he's just off. I could not. I didn't need 823 00:45:44,316 --> 00:45:46,476 Speaker 1: to be there anymore. Right, He's just he's like in 824 00:45:46,516 --> 00:45:50,796 Speaker 1: his own world this is an outrage, uh, and he's 825 00:45:51,916 --> 00:45:55,116 Speaker 1: for him it's genocide. I mean, that's that's that he's 826 00:45:55,156 --> 00:45:59,036 Speaker 1: a code read. There's a there's a certain uh quality 827 00:45:59,116 --> 00:46:02,596 Speaker 1: of delight that that's that's what we're talking about then, 828 00:46:02,636 --> 00:46:06,156 Speaker 1: Only it's conversational delight. You don't you don't get It's 829 00:46:06,196 --> 00:46:08,596 Speaker 1: really hard to get delight off the page. You get 830 00:46:08,636 --> 00:46:11,276 Speaker 1: delight when you're in a conversation with someone and they 831 00:46:11,396 --> 00:46:14,396 Speaker 1: go on in some unexpected direction and you sort of 832 00:46:14,476 --> 00:46:17,276 Speaker 1: understand that something fabuless is coming down the pike. You're 833 00:46:17,356 --> 00:46:19,516 Speaker 1: kind of waiting for it, and they sort of take 834 00:46:19,556 --> 00:46:22,436 Speaker 1: on that's what you're and those I was trying to 835 00:46:23,276 --> 00:46:25,996 Speaker 1: prod people a little bit in the direction of going 836 00:46:25,996 --> 00:46:28,716 Speaker 1: off just to see what happens. Yeah, and the good 837 00:46:28,716 --> 00:46:31,076 Speaker 1: ones will understand that they've been given life, but they're 838 00:46:31,076 --> 00:46:34,556 Speaker 1: playing a game with you. Yes. Yeah. Stay with us 839 00:46:34,676 --> 00:46:47,476 Speaker 1: for some more conversational delight with Malcolm Gladwell. We're back 840 00:46:47,516 --> 00:46:49,756 Speaker 1: with more of me and Malcolm Gladwell in conversation at 841 00:46:49,796 --> 00:46:54,076 Speaker 1: the ninety two Street why his new company, Pushkin Industries 842 00:46:54,516 --> 00:46:57,436 Speaker 1: is the production house behind Against the Rules, And I 843 00:46:57,436 --> 00:46:59,316 Speaker 1: couldn't help but tease him a little bit about something. 844 00:46:59,316 --> 00:47:04,356 Speaker 1: The crew there told me. It's funny that the producers 845 00:47:04,356 --> 00:47:07,396 Speaker 1: when they came to me in the first place, they said, please, 846 00:47:07,516 --> 00:47:10,276 Speaker 1: please don't be like Malcolm and and try to tape 847 00:47:10,276 --> 00:47:13,436 Speaker 1: your own stuff. The first season almost of Malcolm's podcast 848 00:47:13,436 --> 00:47:17,836 Speaker 1: almost killed us. Nonsense, they're you know what they are. 849 00:47:17,996 --> 00:47:22,076 Speaker 1: I know they're out there, they're they are these they're purists, 850 00:47:22,556 --> 00:47:25,276 Speaker 1: right they there. They come from NPR, which is like 851 00:47:25,356 --> 00:47:28,596 Speaker 1: the cathedral on the Hill of Sound. Yeah, it's like 852 00:47:28,596 --> 00:47:32,196 Speaker 1: the Gothic cathedral where and they sit and they study 853 00:47:32,276 --> 00:47:35,236 Speaker 1: their scripture and then they go into the cloisters and 854 00:47:35,276 --> 00:47:36,956 Speaker 1: they take a vow of silence and then they listen 855 00:47:36,996 --> 00:47:40,396 Speaker 1: to pure audio, you know, in the evenings Like that's 856 00:47:40,396 --> 00:47:42,556 Speaker 1: not the real world I'm living in. I'm not I'm 857 00:47:42,596 --> 00:47:47,356 Speaker 1: not in the monastery. I'm no. So I don't listen 858 00:47:47,396 --> 00:47:54,196 Speaker 1: to them, and they don't listen to you. Wait. Um, 859 00:47:54,276 --> 00:47:57,196 Speaker 1: so we have questions, We have questions. Um, we actually 860 00:47:57,196 --> 00:47:59,156 Speaker 1: we have quite a lot of time. Um when I 861 00:47:59,196 --> 00:48:02,676 Speaker 1: had some other Um, oh, I want to talk to 862 00:48:02,716 --> 00:48:08,236 Speaker 1: you about uh, falling in love. Um it's we talked 863 00:48:08,276 --> 00:48:10,236 Speaker 1: ab us a little bit. I you're talking about about 864 00:48:10,236 --> 00:48:13,516 Speaker 1: this because you're in your fiction, in your nonfiction, in 865 00:48:13,556 --> 00:48:17,156 Speaker 1: your books, you fall in love with characters. And then 866 00:48:17,156 --> 00:48:19,676 Speaker 1: you were saying that in the podcast you're doing a 867 00:48:19,796 --> 00:48:23,556 Speaker 1: different kind of slightly different storytelling where you're having many voices. 868 00:48:23,956 --> 00:48:28,196 Speaker 1: Does that impair your Are we going to get the 869 00:48:28,236 --> 00:48:33,716 Speaker 1: classic Michael Lewis character who we fall in love along 870 00:48:33,756 --> 00:48:37,436 Speaker 1: with you? And if we're not, does that sort of 871 00:48:37,556 --> 00:48:39,276 Speaker 1: are you a little bit sad about not having people 872 00:48:39,276 --> 00:48:41,196 Speaker 1: to fall in love with? You have people to fall 873 00:48:41,236 --> 00:48:43,276 Speaker 1: in love with, it's just they're they're they're in a 874 00:48:43,316 --> 00:48:45,236 Speaker 1: single episode. I just don't live with them for the 875 00:48:45,276 --> 00:48:47,996 Speaker 1: whole series. Yeah, I fell in love with Alex Cogan. 876 00:48:48,076 --> 00:48:51,956 Speaker 1: Alex Cogan is he was the academic responsible for the 877 00:48:51,996 --> 00:48:58,436 Speaker 1: work that supposedly allowed Cambridge Analytica to get Donald Trump elected. Yeah, 878 00:48:59,956 --> 00:49:04,876 Speaker 1: and in fact it's all bullshit. In his work was useless. 879 00:49:06,596 --> 00:49:11,476 Speaker 1: This real story there is that it's amazing that Cambridge 880 00:49:11,476 --> 00:49:15,916 Speaker 1: analytic ha persuaded anybody they knew anything that was useful. Hustle. 881 00:49:16,036 --> 00:49:18,796 Speaker 1: It's a hustle. It's a hustle, right, yes, and every 882 00:49:18,836 --> 00:49:21,036 Speaker 1: a lot of people wanted to believe that that's why 883 00:49:21,116 --> 00:49:23,156 Speaker 1: Donald Trump was elected because they needed a reason why 884 00:49:23,156 --> 00:49:25,476 Speaker 1: don't wait, what episode is this? This is three. This 885 00:49:25,556 --> 00:49:28,476 Speaker 1: is actually part of episode three. So it's what's the 886 00:49:28,556 --> 00:49:30,876 Speaker 1: what's the largest story. The largest story is the kline 887 00:49:30,956 --> 00:49:34,836 Speaker 1: of kind of these culture resting. So it's it's language refs, 888 00:49:35,556 --> 00:49:39,316 Speaker 1: it's um budgsman, it's referees in the newsroom. So how 889 00:49:39,316 --> 00:49:41,356 Speaker 1: this story ever got to the front page of the 890 00:49:41,396 --> 00:49:44,396 Speaker 1: New York Times is part of it. But but he's 891 00:49:44,396 --> 00:49:46,636 Speaker 1: built up as the main character of the thing, and 892 00:49:47,436 --> 00:49:51,196 Speaker 1: in a very similar way to a character that you 893 00:49:51,236 --> 00:49:54,756 Speaker 1: would fall in love with it in a magazine piece. Um, 894 00:49:54,956 --> 00:50:00,276 Speaker 1: so this is totally in some ways it's it's it's 895 00:50:00,316 --> 00:50:03,316 Speaker 1: easier to sell the characters because you can hear them. 896 00:50:03,316 --> 00:50:05,756 Speaker 1: You can see why you you you should fall in 897 00:50:05,756 --> 00:50:09,116 Speaker 1: love with him. Um, you've Ken Feinberg, don't you showing up? 898 00:50:09,716 --> 00:50:12,476 Speaker 1: How many people here? Uh, you can't really see it. 899 00:50:12,436 --> 00:50:14,996 Speaker 1: I wonder how many people heren know who Ken Feinberg is. 900 00:50:16,316 --> 00:50:19,676 Speaker 1: Ken Feinberg should be a household name. Ken Feinberg was 901 00:50:21,116 --> 00:50:24,476 Speaker 1: an ordinary lawyer when he was brought in in the 902 00:50:24,916 --> 00:50:29,036 Speaker 1: early eighties to try to resolve the dispute between Vietnam 903 00:50:29,196 --> 00:50:33,036 Speaker 1: veterans and the chemical companies that made agent Orange, and 904 00:50:33,156 --> 00:50:36,716 Speaker 1: Vietnam veterans had, without a whole lot of evidence, had 905 00:50:36,716 --> 00:50:39,276 Speaker 1: brought a suit saying that that this this chemical that 906 00:50:39,316 --> 00:50:42,876 Speaker 1: was spread across the jungles of Vietnam was responsible for 907 00:50:42,916 --> 00:50:45,676 Speaker 1: all these health problems that they were having. And the 908 00:50:45,756 --> 00:50:48,476 Speaker 1: case had lingered in the courts for I don't know 909 00:50:48,516 --> 00:50:53,556 Speaker 1: seven or eight years, and judges had despaired of resolving it, 910 00:50:54,556 --> 00:50:57,796 Speaker 1: and a judge asked this young lawyer, Ken Feinberg, to 911 00:50:58,516 --> 00:51:04,196 Speaker 1: see if he could negotiate outside of the court a 912 00:51:04,316 --> 00:51:08,596 Speaker 1: solution resolution to the between the vets and the companies. 913 00:51:08,756 --> 00:51:10,996 Speaker 1: And six weeks he had the thing done, and he 914 00:51:11,036 --> 00:51:13,036 Speaker 1: was on the front page of every newspaper in the country, 915 00:51:13,236 --> 00:51:16,036 Speaker 1: and his career then just went. He all of a sudden, 916 00:51:16,036 --> 00:51:19,356 Speaker 1: he became America's referee. So he's he's brought in to 917 00:51:19,476 --> 00:51:25,476 Speaker 1: adjudicate these disputes. And um, the question was like two questions, 918 00:51:25,516 --> 00:51:27,236 Speaker 1: Like what are we gonna do when he dies? Because 919 00:51:27,356 --> 00:51:28,876 Speaker 1: he seems to be brought in. I mean, he's like 920 00:51:28,956 --> 00:51:33,396 Speaker 1: he's like the Forrest Gump of of of American tragedy 921 00:51:33,876 --> 00:51:36,196 Speaker 1: and and but the second it is like what what 922 00:51:36,196 --> 00:51:38,516 Speaker 1: what is it about him? Like? And I don't want 923 00:51:38,516 --> 00:51:42,596 Speaker 1: to give away the story. But he there were he 924 00:51:42,676 --> 00:51:45,196 Speaker 1: had a theory of himself and his wife had a 925 00:51:45,236 --> 00:51:49,476 Speaker 1: different theory of him, and the wife's was right. Uh 926 00:51:49,516 --> 00:51:53,236 Speaker 1: but but but you but his theory of his wife's 927 00:51:53,276 --> 00:51:58,916 Speaker 1: theory you can hear kind of proven just in the 928 00:51:59,076 --> 00:52:03,276 Speaker 1: sound of his voice. Oh voice, it is. It's unbelievable. 929 00:52:03,316 --> 00:52:07,756 Speaker 1: So so it's so good that I think it's all 930 00:52:07,756 --> 00:52:10,156 Speaker 1: the voice. So it's so, it's so it could be 931 00:52:10,196 --> 00:52:12,596 Speaker 1: the voice. It's part. It's the righteousness in the voice. 932 00:52:12,636 --> 00:52:16,716 Speaker 1: It's the it's a Boston accent, like you cannot believe. 933 00:52:16,876 --> 00:52:23,316 Speaker 1: And so the episode opens with the passage Um in 934 00:52:23,396 --> 00:52:28,316 Speaker 1: the Bible, Solomon resolving the dispute between the two women, 935 00:52:28,836 --> 00:52:31,076 Speaker 1: each of whom is claiming the baby is hers, and 936 00:52:31,436 --> 00:52:35,396 Speaker 1: Solomon just about to cut the baby in two, and um, 937 00:52:35,556 --> 00:52:37,916 Speaker 1: Feinberg's voices. So we were gonna have an actor read that. 938 00:52:38,276 --> 00:52:40,076 Speaker 1: We had the Fiers voice was so we just had 939 00:52:40,116 --> 00:52:42,396 Speaker 1: Feinberg read the Bible, and it was like it felt 940 00:52:42,396 --> 00:52:46,396 Speaker 1: like God was reading the Bible. Uh. And so you 941 00:52:46,436 --> 00:52:51,756 Speaker 1: the the it's so this form, you know, this form. 942 00:52:51,836 --> 00:52:53,796 Speaker 1: It's just nice to have a different way to tell 943 00:52:53,796 --> 00:52:56,156 Speaker 1: a story and a different way to get to an audience. 944 00:52:56,676 --> 00:52:59,196 Speaker 1: I don't I don't regard this as like a substitute 945 00:52:59,196 --> 00:53:02,196 Speaker 1: for writing books, but it is. It's different and it's interesting. 946 00:53:02,436 --> 00:53:04,516 Speaker 1: I don't know you found when you write it. No 947 00:53:04,516 --> 00:53:08,076 Speaker 1: matter how conversational your writing style is, it is not 948 00:53:08,196 --> 00:53:12,236 Speaker 1: conversational that how people talk is so different from how 949 00:53:12,276 --> 00:53:14,516 Speaker 1: any writer writes. That you have to learn how to 950 00:53:14,556 --> 00:53:19,556 Speaker 1: write your own dialogue. That is so kind of interesting. Anyway, 951 00:53:19,596 --> 00:53:22,156 Speaker 1: thanks for doing this, Michael, thank you. Pleasure being with 952 00:53:22,156 --> 00:53:35,156 Speaker 1: you again. Yes, thanks for listening to this live bonus 953 00:53:35,156 --> 00:53:38,796 Speaker 1: episode of Against the Rules. I want to thank especially 954 00:53:38,876 --> 00:53:41,996 Speaker 1: Malcolm Gladwell and his team at Pushkin Industries and the 955 00:53:42,076 --> 00:53:46,156 Speaker 1: ninety two Street Why for hosting our conversation. I'm off 956 00:53:46,196 --> 00:53:49,676 Speaker 1: now to my secret hiding place. We'll try to figure 957 00:53:49,676 --> 00:53:53,276 Speaker 1: out how to keep you entertained next year. You can 958 00:53:53,276 --> 00:53:56,476 Speaker 1: follow Pushkin Pods on social media if you want to 959 00:53:56,556 --> 00:53:58,676 Speaker 1: keep track of when I'm back on the feed. I 960 00:53:58,716 --> 00:54:02,076 Speaker 1: hope it's soon. I don't know each and every one 961 00:54:02,076 --> 00:54:03,876 Speaker 1: of you, but you've been a great audience, the best 962 00:54:03,916 --> 00:54:04,956 Speaker 1: a writer could ask for.