1 00:00:15,526 --> 00:00:25,416 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey, Happiness Lab listeners. Happy September. Summer always has 2 00:00:25,456 --> 00:00:28,736 Speaker 1: a funny way of ending rather unexpectedly. One minute you're 3 00:00:28,756 --> 00:00:30,996 Speaker 1: staying up late and squeezing in that last beach trip. 4 00:00:31,316 --> 00:00:34,256 Speaker 1: The next minute your calendar is filling up, the routines return, 5 00:00:34,436 --> 00:00:37,466 Speaker 1: and suddenly it's time to get serious again. As a 6 00:00:37,506 --> 00:00:40,326 Speaker 1: college professor, I've always loved the energy that comes with 7 00:00:40,346 --> 00:00:43,566 Speaker 1: the start of the fall semester. September feels like a 8 00:00:43,596 --> 00:00:46,886 Speaker 1: fresh start. There's a sense of possibility as students return 9 00:00:46,926 --> 00:00:50,466 Speaker 1: to campus ready to tackle the academic year. I'm on 10 00:00:50,486 --> 00:00:53,646 Speaker 1: sabbatical right now, which makes this fresh start moment even 11 00:00:53,666 --> 00:00:56,586 Speaker 1: more exciting. I'm trying to think a little more intentionally 12 00:00:56,686 --> 00:00:58,586 Speaker 1: about how I want to spend my time and what 13 00:00:58,626 --> 00:01:01,746 Speaker 1: I hope to accomplish over the coming months. But this 14 00:01:01,806 --> 00:01:04,966 Speaker 1: kind of new season reset can also feel pretty overwhelming. 15 00:01:05,586 --> 00:01:08,346 Speaker 1: What should you decide to focus on? And where do 16 00:01:08,376 --> 00:01:11,176 Speaker 1: you even begin? To help make the transition to the 17 00:01:11,236 --> 00:01:13,816 Speaker 1: fall a little easier on all of us, we're launching 18 00:01:13,836 --> 00:01:17,236 Speaker 1: a special new back-to-school season of the Happiness Lab. And 19 00:01:17,276 --> 00:01:20,416 Speaker 1: since back-to-school is all about nerding out, we'll be featuring 20 00:01:20,456 --> 00:01:23,676 Speaker 1: conversations with the authors of some of my favorite recent books. 21 00:01:24,556 --> 00:01:27,526 Speaker 1: Each episode will be packed with practical ideas to help 22 00:01:27,566 --> 00:01:30,966 Speaker 1: us head into the fall with a little more clarity, purpose, creativity, 23 00:01:31,086 --> 00:01:34,846 Speaker 1: and joy. And we're kicking this new back-to-school season off 24 00:01:34,886 --> 00:01:37,866 Speaker 1: with a bang, because today I'm chatting with a psychologist 25 00:01:37,966 --> 00:01:40,446 Speaker 1: who's not just a brilliant researcher, She's one of my 26 00:01:40,486 --> 00:01:43,586 Speaker 1: close friends, someone I've turned to for advice again and 27 00:01:43,636 --> 00:01:44,476 Speaker 1: again over the years. 28 00:01:45,036 --> 00:01:48,496 Speaker 2: I'm Angela Duckworth. I'm a professor at the University of Pennsylvania, 29 00:01:48,676 --> 00:01:49,656 Speaker 2: and I'm a psychologist. 30 00:01:50,316 --> 00:01:53,736 Speaker 1: Angela is probably best known for her 2016 bestseller, Grit, 31 00:01:54,096 --> 00:01:57,276 Speaker 1: the power and passion of perseverance. Angela also has a 32 00:01:57,316 --> 00:01:59,816 Speaker 1: TED Talk on the same subject, which has been viewed 33 00:01:59,996 --> 00:02:04,316 Speaker 1: nearly 18 million times. The big question that drives all 34 00:02:04,356 --> 00:02:07,116 Speaker 1: of my research, I think really from day one of 35 00:02:07,156 --> 00:02:12,096 Speaker 1: graduate school, is the psychology of success. Why are some 36 00:02:12,136 --> 00:02:16,036 Speaker 1: people more successful at achieving what they want to achieve 37 00:02:16,056 --> 00:02:19,396 Speaker 1: than other people? I want to know what makes an 38 00:02:19,436 --> 00:02:22,476 Speaker 1: Olympic gold medalist an Olympic gold medalist, but I want 39 00:02:22,496 --> 00:02:25,776 Speaker 1: to know how that's the same as being a three-star 40 00:02:25,796 --> 00:02:30,756 Speaker 1: Michelin chef or a community organizer who truly changes the neighborhood. 41 00:02:30,776 --> 00:02:33,746 Speaker 1: That common denominator has always been fascinating to me. And 42 00:02:34,846 --> 00:02:36,786 Speaker 1: so many of our listeners know you for your work 43 00:02:36,966 --> 00:02:38,716 Speaker 1: on grit. How do you define grit? 44 00:02:40,036 --> 00:02:42,896 Speaker 2: Well, the first way I tackled this question of what 45 00:02:42,956 --> 00:02:45,536 Speaker 2: makes some people more successful than others was at least 46 00:02:45,576 --> 00:02:47,516 Speaker 2: to me the most obvious, which is to look at 47 00:02:47,596 --> 00:02:51,806 Speaker 2: individuals and try to understand what makes these individuals different. 48 00:02:52,206 --> 00:02:56,566 Speaker 2: That set me on the trail of understanding effort and 49 00:02:56,606 --> 00:03:02,606 Speaker 2: motivation and the idea that there are individuals who, whatever 50 00:03:02,646 --> 00:03:09,166 Speaker 2: their natural ability, are extremely passionate and persevering over unusually 51 00:03:09,246 --> 00:03:14,396 Speaker 2: long periods of time and that stamina to stay committed 52 00:03:14,916 --> 00:03:19,156 Speaker 2: to a certain goal over years and to on a 53 00:03:19,216 --> 00:03:24,706 Speaker 2: daily basis dedicate yourself to making a tiny improvement toward 54 00:03:24,746 --> 00:03:27,366 Speaker 2: that goal and being resilient in the face of the 55 00:03:27,426 --> 00:03:30,706 Speaker 2: inevitable setbacks that all together that passion and perseverance for 56 00:03:30,726 --> 00:03:33,206 Speaker 2: long-term goals is what I ended up calling. 57 00:03:32,986 --> 00:03:36,716 Speaker 1: Grit so that's what Angela has become famous for Studying 58 00:03:36,756 --> 00:03:39,616 Speaker 1: how successful people buckle down, commit to their goals, and 59 00:03:39,676 --> 00:03:42,616 Speaker 1: do what it takes to make them happen. But doing 60 00:03:42,656 --> 00:03:45,566 Speaker 1: that is really hard. And maybe this is just where 61 00:03:45,666 --> 00:03:48,506 Speaker 1: I'm at with the change of seasons right now, but honestly, 62 00:03:48,706 --> 00:03:52,086 Speaker 1: exerting that kind of grit sounds kind of exhausting. In 63 00:03:52,146 --> 00:03:54,996 Speaker 1: recent years, Angela has also started to wonder whether there 64 00:03:55,016 --> 00:03:57,536 Speaker 1: might be a simpler way to achieve your dreams, to 65 00:03:57,576 --> 00:03:59,776 Speaker 1: become the person you want to be with a little 66 00:03:59,836 --> 00:04:02,996 Speaker 1: less blood, sweat, and tears. As you know, I've been 67 00:04:03,036 --> 00:04:06,656 Speaker 1: looking for the philosopher who says, no, don't do it 68 00:04:06,696 --> 00:04:08,416 Speaker 1: the hard way. That's just stupid. 69 00:04:08,856 --> 00:04:12,056 Speaker 2: And there are writings, you know, Confucius, writings of the Buddha, 70 00:04:12,736 --> 00:04:17,196 Speaker 2: and Sun Tzu, the ancient Chinese general who wrote down 71 00:04:17,236 --> 00:04:20,716 Speaker 2: the principles of battle into the art of war, said, 72 00:04:20,916 --> 00:04:23,846 Speaker 2: you know, it's foolish to try to beat an enemy 73 00:04:23,946 --> 00:04:27,566 Speaker 2: through brute strength. You should never do that. You should 74 00:04:27,606 --> 00:04:29,986 Speaker 2: always try to set up a situation in which you 75 00:04:30,376 --> 00:04:33,476 Speaker 2: The victory comes easier. In her new book, Angela shares 76 00:04:33,516 --> 00:04:36,756 Speaker 2: what she's learned about using your situation to make achievement 77 00:04:36,836 --> 00:04:37,496 Speaker 2: a little easier. 78 00:04:37,516 --> 00:04:39,436 Speaker 1: It's titled Situated. 79 00:04:39,856 --> 00:04:42,276 Speaker 2: Find the people and places that bring out your best. 80 00:04:42,876 --> 00:04:46,606 Speaker 2: You know, situation is a funny and particularly uncharismatic word, 81 00:04:46,626 --> 00:04:48,786 Speaker 2: I will say, that one of the challenges of writing 82 00:04:48,826 --> 00:04:50,806 Speaker 2: this book, it was like, what do I call it? 83 00:04:50,826 --> 00:04:55,186 Speaker 1: You know, grit. is a great onomatopoeic. It's a good word. 84 00:04:55,526 --> 00:04:58,186 Speaker 1: It's so good. I mean, so TED talk. So it 85 00:04:58,206 --> 00:04:59,746 Speaker 1: is a lot like what it sounds. 86 00:05:00,046 --> 00:05:05,276 Speaker 2: Situation is everything about your circumstances, not only the social 87 00:05:05,396 --> 00:05:08,256 Speaker 2: aspects of your situation, like who are the people in 88 00:05:08,296 --> 00:05:10,516 Speaker 2: your orbit? Who are the people in your social network? 89 00:05:10,856 --> 00:05:15,496 Speaker 2: who are your mentors, but also cultural elements. It's the norms, 90 00:05:15,936 --> 00:05:18,486 Speaker 2: the values of the group in which you are. So 91 00:05:18,696 --> 00:05:21,946 Speaker 2: I think when I say the word situation, what I'm 92 00:05:22,006 --> 00:05:27,886 Speaker 2: struggling to say in so many syllables is everything, everything 93 00:05:27,906 --> 00:05:31,406 Speaker 2: around you, outside of you, that is relevant to you. 94 00:05:32,226 --> 00:05:35,006 Speaker 1: People around us, the spaces we occupy, the cultures we're 95 00:05:35,046 --> 00:05:37,876 Speaker 1: part of. Angela argues that all of these things can 96 00:05:37,896 --> 00:05:40,976 Speaker 1: help bring out our best selves. But if that also 97 00:05:41,016 --> 00:05:44,356 Speaker 1: seems a little overwhelming, fear not. Because Angela is going 98 00:05:44,376 --> 00:05:46,896 Speaker 1: to help us break it down. She'll teach us how 99 00:05:46,956 --> 00:05:49,966 Speaker 1: making small adjustments to our everyday surroundings can make it 100 00:05:50,006 --> 00:05:51,846 Speaker 1: a heck of a lot easier for all of us 101 00:05:51,966 --> 00:05:56,226 Speaker 1: to reach our goals. Our minds are constantly telling us 102 00:05:56,266 --> 00:05:58,046 Speaker 1: what to do to be happy. But what if our 103 00:05:58,086 --> 00:06:00,706 Speaker 1: minds are wrong? What if our minds are lying to us, 104 00:06:01,006 --> 00:06:03,046 Speaker 1: leading us away from what will really make us happy? 105 00:06:03,066 --> 00:06:06,036 Speaker 1: The good news is that understanding the science of the 106 00:06:06,096 --> 00:06:08,316 Speaker 1: mind can point us all back in the right direction. 107 00:06:09,076 --> 00:06:11,976 Speaker 1: You're listening to The Happiness Lab with Dr. Laurie Santos. 108 00:06:18,766 --> 00:06:21,866 Speaker 1: And so they often say that all research is me-search, 109 00:06:22,046 --> 00:06:24,196 Speaker 1: and I feel like your interest in grit is a 110 00:06:24,216 --> 00:06:26,816 Speaker 1: case in point of that. Explain how your early family 111 00:06:26,856 --> 00:06:30,426 Speaker 1: life shaped this fascination with grit and with accomplishment more generally. 112 00:06:31,206 --> 00:06:33,626 Speaker 2: I think, Lori, you and I agree that all research 113 00:06:33,686 --> 00:06:35,146 Speaker 2: is research. I mean, we don't have to go all 114 00:06:35,186 --> 00:06:39,126 Speaker 2: Freud to say that what we're interested in is so 115 00:06:39,286 --> 00:06:41,466 Speaker 2: often something we have or something we lack. 116 00:06:41,566 --> 00:06:43,386 Speaker 1: But to be fair, Angela, I feel like in your case, 117 00:06:43,446 --> 00:06:44,806 Speaker 1: it really is very Freud-y. 118 00:06:45,056 --> 00:06:49,976 Speaker 2: It's a little Freud-y. Yes, it's a little Freud-y. That 119 00:06:50,036 --> 00:06:51,976 Speaker 2: is so true because there is a father figure. I 120 00:06:52,616 --> 00:06:55,776 Speaker 2: will say that when I was growing up, My father, 121 00:06:55,816 --> 00:06:59,956 Speaker 2: who's hard to describe without me sounding like I'm exaggerating, 122 00:07:00,296 --> 00:07:02,276 Speaker 2: but my father really did come to the dinner table 123 00:07:02,366 --> 00:07:06,166 Speaker 2: and the breakfast table with these stories of greatness. I mean, 124 00:07:06,206 --> 00:07:08,646 Speaker 2: that is what we talked about in our house. Like 125 00:07:08,666 --> 00:07:10,866 Speaker 2: we talked about who won the Nobel Prize. We talked 126 00:07:10,906 --> 00:07:13,366 Speaker 2: about who is the greatest physicist of all time. These 127 00:07:13,406 --> 00:07:15,096 Speaker 2: are the things that were on his mind. He was 128 00:07:15,136 --> 00:07:17,096 Speaker 2: not great with kids, so he would just talk about 129 00:07:17,116 --> 00:07:19,336 Speaker 2: what he wanted to talk about. And so at a 130 00:07:19,436 --> 00:07:23,586 Speaker 2: very early age, I got the message that achievement is 131 00:07:23,606 --> 00:07:25,946 Speaker 2: the most important thing in life. My dad and I 132 00:07:25,986 --> 00:07:28,106 Speaker 2: used to like to walk to this deli that was 133 00:07:28,306 --> 00:07:29,926 Speaker 2: about a half mile from our house, and we would 134 00:07:29,946 --> 00:07:33,256 Speaker 2: go on Saturday mornings. and we would have breakfast together, 135 00:07:33,296 --> 00:07:35,846 Speaker 2: and then we would walk back. And one day, I 136 00:07:36,126 --> 00:07:38,966 Speaker 2: was like a sophomore in high school, maybe 16 years old, 137 00:07:39,306 --> 00:07:41,186 Speaker 2: and I think I had been assigned to write a 138 00:07:41,226 --> 00:07:44,976 Speaker 2: paper in English class on the meaning of life. And I, 139 00:07:45,226 --> 00:07:47,796 Speaker 2: as many 16-year-olds do, feel like I had figured it 140 00:07:47,836 --> 00:07:49,076 Speaker 2: all out. I was like, oh, I had to do 141 00:07:49,096 --> 00:07:51,096 Speaker 2: this assignment for English class, and I think I figured 142 00:07:51,136 --> 00:07:53,796 Speaker 2: out the meaning of life. So I said to my dad, 143 00:07:53,836 --> 00:07:56,196 Speaker 2: I think the meaning of life is happiness. And my 144 00:07:56,216 --> 00:08:00,166 Speaker 2: dad stopped in his tracks and He said to me, 145 00:08:00,176 --> 00:08:03,766 Speaker 2: not in an angry way, but in a very emphatic way, 146 00:08:04,206 --> 00:08:07,106 Speaker 2: that he disagreed with me. And I said, well, if 147 00:08:07,146 --> 00:08:10,936 Speaker 2: it's not happiness that's the meaning of life, what is it? 148 00:08:11,596 --> 00:08:15,516 Speaker 2: And he said, achievement. So this is the house that 149 00:08:15,596 --> 00:08:18,196 Speaker 2: Angela grew up in. At that time, I was called Angie. 150 00:08:18,276 --> 00:08:20,916 Speaker 2: So little Angie was trying to figure out how to 151 00:08:20,956 --> 00:08:24,456 Speaker 2: become an accomplished person so that her father would pay 152 00:08:24,496 --> 00:08:28,376 Speaker 2: attention to her, really. And I think that did endow 153 00:08:28,396 --> 00:08:32,436 Speaker 2: me with a lifelong obsession with that singular question, right? 154 00:08:32,486 --> 00:08:35,606 Speaker 2: Like what makes people more successful? And I think in 155 00:08:35,646 --> 00:08:38,186 Speaker 2: a way, I can either thank or blame my father 156 00:08:38,706 --> 00:08:42,996 Speaker 2: for everything I've done in in psychology because of this upbringing. 157 00:08:44,026 --> 00:08:47,776 Speaker 1: And so at first that interest slash obsession with achievement 158 00:08:47,816 --> 00:08:50,236 Speaker 1: was focused on what's going on inside the person, right? 159 00:08:50,256 --> 00:08:52,896 Speaker 1: Their passion and their perseverance. But these days you've been 160 00:08:52,936 --> 00:08:55,636 Speaker 1: looking external to the person. Why is it so important 161 00:08:55,656 --> 00:08:58,056 Speaker 1: to shift our focus to what's going on outside people 162 00:08:58,096 --> 00:08:59,376 Speaker 1: when we want to know about achievement? 163 00:09:00,276 --> 00:09:03,316 Speaker 2: Now, Laurie, I think we both learned very early in 164 00:09:03,376 --> 00:09:07,756 Speaker 2: our training about the fundamental attribution error and a book 165 00:09:07,776 --> 00:09:10,356 Speaker 2: called The Person and the Situation. a book I know 166 00:09:10,376 --> 00:09:13,326 Speaker 2: you're familiar with. It was by Lee Ross and Dick Nisbet. 167 00:09:14,066 --> 00:09:17,046 Speaker 2: And when I was in graduate school, I remember reading 168 00:09:17,086 --> 00:09:19,546 Speaker 2: it and I remember thinking, that I would never see 169 00:09:19,586 --> 00:09:21,406 Speaker 2: the world in the same way. The person in the 170 00:09:21,426 --> 00:09:25,586 Speaker 2: situation says that there's a fundamental mistake that we make 171 00:09:26,026 --> 00:09:29,206 Speaker 2: when we try to explain other people's behavior, which we 172 00:09:29,246 --> 00:09:32,126 Speaker 2: do all the time. Why did that guy cut me off? Like, 173 00:09:32,196 --> 00:09:35,096 Speaker 2: why did the barista leave the latte on the counter 174 00:09:35,176 --> 00:09:37,956 Speaker 2: over here and not over here? Why did my husband 175 00:09:38,376 --> 00:09:41,736 Speaker 2: say that he didn't want to have lunch with this 176 00:09:41,936 --> 00:09:44,496 Speaker 2: couple on Saturday? You know, we're always trying to figure 177 00:09:44,556 --> 00:09:47,936 Speaker 2: out why people do what they do. We do it spontaneously. 178 00:09:48,616 --> 00:09:52,106 Speaker 2: And we make a mistake when we attribute behavior to 179 00:09:52,566 --> 00:09:58,266 Speaker 2: the individual and neglect the features of the situation that 180 00:09:58,766 --> 00:10:02,606 Speaker 2: are also very important. So, for example, you could say, well, 181 00:10:03,006 --> 00:10:05,706 Speaker 2: my husband's an introvert and that's why he doesn't want 182 00:10:05,726 --> 00:10:09,536 Speaker 2: to have a social lunch on Saturday. Or it could 183 00:10:09,596 --> 00:10:12,136 Speaker 2: be that he's coming down with the flu and he's 184 00:10:12,156 --> 00:10:15,876 Speaker 2: really tired and that's what's going on in his situation 185 00:10:16,176 --> 00:10:18,466 Speaker 2: or that he has a crushing amount of work to do. 186 00:10:18,826 --> 00:10:21,406 Speaker 2: So this idea that we make this error when we 187 00:10:21,506 --> 00:10:26,206 Speaker 2: attribute the cause of a given behavior to the individual, 188 00:10:26,286 --> 00:10:29,626 Speaker 2: the individual and the individual, and we ignore the situation 189 00:10:29,646 --> 00:10:33,346 Speaker 2: that at a very basic level, we make a tragic 190 00:10:33,386 --> 00:10:37,606 Speaker 2: mistake because as modern research has shown, and this is 191 00:10:38,206 --> 00:10:40,466 Speaker 2: after this book was published, that when you look at 192 00:10:40,506 --> 00:10:43,726 Speaker 2: people's behavior, when you ask a simple question, how much 193 00:10:43,766 --> 00:10:46,746 Speaker 2: of this behavior can we trace back to that person's personality, 194 00:10:47,146 --> 00:10:50,836 Speaker 2: their character, their habits and mindsets? And how much can 195 00:10:50,856 --> 00:10:53,416 Speaker 2: we trace it back to what's going in their situation, 196 00:10:53,916 --> 00:10:57,736 Speaker 2: the people around them, the places they are, the culture 197 00:10:57,876 --> 00:11:00,256 Speaker 2: of where they are, the weather of where they are, 198 00:11:00,336 --> 00:11:03,796 Speaker 2: what's within armed streets, what's within sight, you come to 199 00:11:03,846 --> 00:11:07,606 Speaker 2: the answer that at least half and very likely more 200 00:11:07,626 --> 00:11:11,566 Speaker 2: of variation in behavior is not due to the individual 201 00:11:11,706 --> 00:11:16,406 Speaker 2: and their personality, et cetera. It's actually due to their situation. 202 00:11:16,466 --> 00:11:19,526 Speaker 2: So I think in this second half of my career, 203 00:11:20,076 --> 00:11:22,796 Speaker 2: I have asked the question again, what makes some people 204 00:11:23,116 --> 00:11:26,786 Speaker 2: more successful than other people? But instead of going to 205 00:11:26,846 --> 00:11:29,686 Speaker 2: grit or mindset or some of the things that I 206 00:11:29,726 --> 00:11:34,256 Speaker 2: do think are important, I have let my attention expand, 207 00:11:34,336 --> 00:11:37,796 Speaker 2: if you will, to the situation and all of those 208 00:11:37,836 --> 00:11:39,936 Speaker 2: features that are at least as important. 209 00:11:41,586 --> 00:11:43,066 Speaker 1: There's a thing that's hard about the situation, which is 210 00:11:43,086 --> 00:11:45,266 Speaker 1: it's hard to even see it. We're kind of fish 211 00:11:45,326 --> 00:11:48,026 Speaker 1: in water that don't notice that we're in water. And 212 00:11:48,066 --> 00:11:50,146 Speaker 1: you've talked about why this is such a difficult subject 213 00:11:50,186 --> 00:11:52,176 Speaker 1: to write about because we kind of don't notice it. 214 00:11:52,626 --> 00:11:54,776 Speaker 1: Why is the situation so invisible to us? 215 00:11:55,676 --> 00:11:59,936 Speaker 2: So when we look at a scene, we immediately parse 216 00:12:00,396 --> 00:12:04,156 Speaker 2: the object from the background. That's what the human eye 217 00:12:04,216 --> 00:12:08,546 Speaker 2: does for you without any conscious willing. So you foveate, 218 00:12:08,606 --> 00:12:12,426 Speaker 2: you focus on objects. And then the rest goes blurry. 219 00:12:12,526 --> 00:12:14,986 Speaker 2: And the best way to communicate this, it's like when 220 00:12:15,006 --> 00:12:18,026 Speaker 2: your camera is on portrait mode, right? You have this 221 00:12:18,146 --> 00:12:23,346 Speaker 2: really high definition, detailed vision of what's in the center 222 00:12:23,606 --> 00:12:25,506 Speaker 2: of your field of view, but then everything else kind 223 00:12:25,546 --> 00:12:28,936 Speaker 2: of like fades into blurriness. And I think that is 224 00:12:29,136 --> 00:12:32,536 Speaker 2: at some deeper level, the way we process our experience 225 00:12:32,576 --> 00:12:36,746 Speaker 2: that When I remember having a conversation with you, Laurie, 226 00:12:37,106 --> 00:12:40,256 Speaker 2: maybe it doesn't register to me that it was a 227 00:12:40,276 --> 00:12:43,276 Speaker 2: hot and muggy day or that the stock market was 228 00:12:43,436 --> 00:12:46,896 Speaker 2: crashing or our good friend Tamar was, you know, waiting 229 00:12:46,936 --> 00:12:50,796 Speaker 2: for us. So we do pay attention to the people 230 00:12:50,966 --> 00:12:54,646 Speaker 2: in particular. And then the background is like literally the background, 231 00:12:54,706 --> 00:12:56,746 Speaker 2: you know, like why would we pay attention to that? 232 00:12:57,286 --> 00:12:59,906 Speaker 2: I would call that situational awareness. You know, how aware 233 00:13:00,006 --> 00:13:02,006 Speaker 2: are we of the situation? I don't think our default 234 00:13:02,166 --> 00:13:06,076 Speaker 2: is to be aware, to notice how our situation is 235 00:13:06,506 --> 00:13:09,436 Speaker 2: changing us for the good or changing us for the bad. 236 00:13:10,016 --> 00:13:12,496 Speaker 2: And in some ways, I feel like what we are 237 00:13:12,516 --> 00:13:16,396 Speaker 2: are fish in water where, you know, how cold the 238 00:13:16,436 --> 00:13:19,156 Speaker 2: water is and the direction the water is going is 239 00:13:19,216 --> 00:13:22,056 Speaker 2: not something we pay attention to. But I'll tell you, 240 00:13:22,236 --> 00:13:25,776 Speaker 2: it really matters, especially because we can change the water. 241 00:13:25,856 --> 00:13:29,066 Speaker 2: We can choose our current. And I think we have 242 00:13:29,086 --> 00:13:33,406 Speaker 2: to consciously draw our attention to, I've noticed that I'm 243 00:13:33,426 --> 00:13:35,826 Speaker 2: a certain kind of person when I'm with this friend. 244 00:13:36,366 --> 00:13:38,366 Speaker 2: Or I've noticed that when I'm at work, I'm a 245 00:13:38,406 --> 00:13:40,946 Speaker 2: lot more productive than I am when I'm sitting in 246 00:13:40,966 --> 00:13:42,326 Speaker 2: my living room trying to get work done. 247 00:13:42,406 --> 00:13:46,256 Speaker 1: Or the opposite. I think those things take conscious effort 248 00:13:46,336 --> 00:13:50,916 Speaker 1: to draw our attention to. And so the situation requires 249 00:13:50,956 --> 00:13:53,976 Speaker 1: this conscious effort. But there's something that we notice a 250 00:13:53,996 --> 00:13:56,836 Speaker 1: lot whenever we're trying to achieve a goal. We really 251 00:13:56,916 --> 00:14:00,656 Speaker 1: notice when we're thinking about achievement, willpower. And I know 252 00:14:00,716 --> 00:14:02,796 Speaker 1: this was something that you noticed a lot and that 253 00:14:02,816 --> 00:14:04,416 Speaker 1: you thought about a lot when you were trying to 254 00:14:04,486 --> 00:14:06,986 Speaker 1: achieve your own goals and in your early research. But 255 00:14:07,066 --> 00:14:10,306 Speaker 1: in your book, you talk about noticing that willpower wasn't 256 00:14:10,346 --> 00:14:12,486 Speaker 1: doing the work that you thought it was. And one 257 00:14:12,506 --> 00:14:14,346 Speaker 1: of the stories I really loved is a story of 258 00:14:14,386 --> 00:14:18,056 Speaker 1: you reading to your daughters a particular book that questioned 259 00:14:18,116 --> 00:14:20,466 Speaker 1: the power of willpower. So Tell me a little bit 260 00:14:20,486 --> 00:14:22,466 Speaker 1: about that story and what it showed about Willpower. 261 00:14:23,286 --> 00:14:28,586 Speaker 2: When I was in graduate school, I was pregnant with 262 00:14:28,666 --> 00:14:32,906 Speaker 2: my second daughter, Lucy, and I was still nursing my 263 00:14:32,996 --> 00:14:38,656 Speaker 2: first daughter, Amanda. And what I then had to do 264 00:14:38,816 --> 00:14:43,776 Speaker 2: was to basically become a graduate student, become a psychologist, 265 00:14:44,056 --> 00:14:47,116 Speaker 2: but also essentially grow into motherhood all at the same time. 266 00:14:47,736 --> 00:14:49,876 Speaker 2: And it was around the time that they were in 267 00:14:49,976 --> 00:14:54,116 Speaker 2: preschool towards the middle or end of my Ph.D. that 268 00:14:54,546 --> 00:14:57,846 Speaker 2: I would read them stories from Frog and Toad. And 269 00:14:58,186 --> 00:15:02,146 Speaker 2: Frog and Toad is, I think, the most psychologically wise 270 00:15:02,546 --> 00:15:07,046 Speaker 2: children's series that there could ever be. Like every single story. 271 00:15:07,446 --> 00:15:11,176 Speaker 2: story could be its own academic publication. And they were 272 00:15:11,196 --> 00:15:15,916 Speaker 2: written by the incomparable Arnold Lobel. And in particular, Amanda 273 00:15:15,956 --> 00:15:19,236 Speaker 2: and Lucy really liked the cookies story. Frog and Toad, 274 00:15:19,296 --> 00:15:23,406 Speaker 2: who are best friends, are baking a big batch of cookies. 275 00:15:24,206 --> 00:15:27,386 Speaker 2: And they're eating them, you know, fin over fin. And 276 00:15:27,886 --> 00:15:30,526 Speaker 2: Frog or Toad says to the other, like, we must 277 00:15:30,596 --> 00:15:33,156 Speaker 2: stop eating these cookies or we will be sick. And 278 00:15:33,196 --> 00:15:36,736 Speaker 2: then the reply comes back like, indeed, we should, as 279 00:15:36,756 --> 00:15:40,206 Speaker 2: he reaches for another cookie. And the dialogue progresses. And 280 00:15:40,236 --> 00:15:42,246 Speaker 2: then one of them says, you know what we need? 281 00:15:42,286 --> 00:15:46,226 Speaker 2: We need willpower. Willpower is trying hard not to do 282 00:15:46,306 --> 00:15:48,256 Speaker 2: something you really want to do. 283 00:15:48,796 --> 00:15:51,536 Speaker 1: So they try to use willpower. That fails. 284 00:15:52,036 --> 00:15:55,116 Speaker 2: At the time in graduate school, willpower was at its 285 00:15:55,336 --> 00:15:58,606 Speaker 2: zenith as the idea of the moment. And for me 286 00:15:58,686 --> 00:16:00,646 Speaker 2: as a graduate student, what I was taking from this 287 00:16:00,766 --> 00:16:04,476 Speaker 2: is that willpower is a muscle. You have to exercise it. 288 00:16:04,486 --> 00:16:06,926 Speaker 2: You have to force yourself to That was what was 289 00:16:06,966 --> 00:16:09,036 Speaker 2: going through my head as a psychologist. But as I'm 290 00:16:09,076 --> 00:16:11,796 Speaker 2: reading the story, you know, you turn the page and 291 00:16:11,896 --> 00:16:14,176 Speaker 2: what you find out is that frog and toad are 292 00:16:14,236 --> 00:16:17,366 Speaker 2: smarter than that. They figure out that better than forcing 293 00:16:17,426 --> 00:16:21,086 Speaker 2: themselves in the moment to resist temptation, they can change 294 00:16:21,646 --> 00:16:24,856 Speaker 2: their situation. And they scatter the cookies on the grass. 295 00:16:25,376 --> 00:16:28,706 Speaker 2: And they have done the ultimate situational agency move. And 296 00:16:28,736 --> 00:16:31,106 Speaker 2: by that, I mean they have taken charge of their 297 00:16:31,146 --> 00:16:33,946 Speaker 2: own situation. They have invited the birds. They say, come 298 00:16:33,986 --> 00:16:37,106 Speaker 2: birds and eat the cookies. And the birds come and 299 00:16:37,146 --> 00:16:39,246 Speaker 2: they eat all the cookies. And then, of course, frog 300 00:16:39,286 --> 00:16:42,426 Speaker 2: and toad don't have to resist them anymore. And I 301 00:16:42,466 --> 00:16:44,826 Speaker 2: think that to me was a profound lesson. It did 302 00:16:44,866 --> 00:16:48,366 Speaker 2: take me several years to fully appreciate that. This lesson, 303 00:16:48,846 --> 00:16:51,906 Speaker 2: like I literally made willpower interventions where I tried to 304 00:16:51,946 --> 00:16:54,736 Speaker 2: get kids to do hard things like row on a 305 00:16:54,766 --> 00:16:57,736 Speaker 2: rowing machine, an ergometer. And I thought like, OK, they 306 00:16:57,756 --> 00:17:00,236 Speaker 2: do this for, you know, five, six weeks. They get stronger, 307 00:17:00,476 --> 00:17:03,916 Speaker 2: not only physically, but mentally. Then they'll be more self-controlled. 308 00:17:04,236 --> 00:17:07,176 Speaker 2: Total fail. I tried a number of other approaches. And 309 00:17:07,196 --> 00:17:10,256 Speaker 2: I think what I've concluded now as a scientist is 310 00:17:10,316 --> 00:17:14,456 Speaker 2: that absolutely we all have to do things that are 311 00:17:14,516 --> 00:17:17,836 Speaker 2: in the moment not the easiest to do. maybe not 312 00:17:17,896 --> 00:17:21,656 Speaker 2: the funnest to do. That includes staying off your phone. 313 00:17:22,156 --> 00:17:27,426 Speaker 2: That includes eating the healthier option at lunch or not 314 00:17:27,496 --> 00:17:32,366 Speaker 2: snacking after nine o'clock at night. That includes not being 315 00:17:32,446 --> 00:17:35,006 Speaker 2: on your phone in the middle of a meeting that 316 00:17:35,046 --> 00:17:37,606 Speaker 2: you're supposed to be paying attention to. Of course, we 317 00:17:37,646 --> 00:17:41,306 Speaker 2: all need to do that. But willpower, simply trying hard 318 00:17:41,586 --> 00:17:44,326 Speaker 2: not to do or to do those things, as the 319 00:17:44,466 --> 00:17:47,956 Speaker 2: case may be, That's so dumb. And what we need 320 00:17:47,976 --> 00:17:50,576 Speaker 2: to do is turn the page and like frog and toad, 321 00:17:51,196 --> 00:17:54,856 Speaker 2: exert situational agency, change the situation so that it is 322 00:17:54,896 --> 00:17:56,216 Speaker 2: our ally and not our enemy. 323 00:17:57,296 --> 00:17:59,636 Speaker 1: And you've actually done some specific studies on this. I 324 00:17:59,656 --> 00:18:02,096 Speaker 1: know with your colleague, James Gross, you looked at whether 325 00:18:02,116 --> 00:18:04,146 Speaker 1: or not this frog and toad effect was true for 326 00:18:04,186 --> 00:18:07,496 Speaker 1: people's everyday temptations. What did you find? Well, you say 327 00:18:07,606 --> 00:18:10,376 Speaker 1: my colleague, but I have to say our colleague. Our colleague. 328 00:18:10,416 --> 00:18:12,736 Speaker 1: I'll steal him, too. And our mutual friend. I know. 329 00:18:12,816 --> 00:18:14,776 Speaker 2: Is there anybody in psychology that. 330 00:18:14,696 --> 00:18:18,136 Speaker 1: Is more widely respected than James Gross? No. Nor is 331 00:18:18,176 --> 00:18:21,216 Speaker 1: there someone who should recognize the power of self-control more 332 00:18:21,236 --> 00:18:23,236 Speaker 1: than James Gross because he's a very self-controlled guy. He 333 00:18:23,316 --> 00:18:25,736 Speaker 1: is the most self-controlled person I know. That is so true. 334 00:18:26,236 --> 00:18:28,556 Speaker 2: So I met James, I think, around the same time 335 00:18:28,616 --> 00:18:31,506 Speaker 2: I met you, Lori. I know that it was a 336 00:18:31,686 --> 00:18:35,886 Speaker 2: meeting at Yale. I think it was 2010 or 2011. 337 00:18:37,326 --> 00:18:41,526 Speaker 2: And I was sitting in this darkened amphitheater and one 338 00:18:41,586 --> 00:18:45,326 Speaker 2: after another researchers, including myself, went up and we gave 339 00:18:45,386 --> 00:18:47,186 Speaker 2: our little basically a TED talk. 340 00:18:47,246 --> 00:18:47,486 Speaker 1: Right. 341 00:18:47,546 --> 00:18:51,066 Speaker 2: But only for other academics. And James was the first talk. 342 00:18:51,176 --> 00:18:54,416 Speaker 2: And his talk to me was life changing because when 343 00:18:54,496 --> 00:18:58,136 Speaker 2: James got up there, he said, as somebody who studies emotion, 344 00:18:58,676 --> 00:19:00,676 Speaker 2: that one of the big mistakes that people make is 345 00:19:00,696 --> 00:19:04,156 Speaker 2: they try to use willpower essentially to change their emotions like, 346 00:19:04,196 --> 00:19:07,976 Speaker 2: you know, I'm feeling depressed and I don't want to 347 00:19:08,016 --> 00:19:10,516 Speaker 2: be a downer. So I'm just going to make myself 348 00:19:10,626 --> 00:19:13,406 Speaker 2: not feel this way. I'm going to make myself be cheerful. 349 00:19:13,946 --> 00:19:17,046 Speaker 2: That's called emotion suppression in his line of work, but 350 00:19:17,186 --> 00:19:20,046 Speaker 2: it's essentially a form of willpower. And he said from 351 00:19:20,086 --> 00:19:23,746 Speaker 2: the stage, don't do that. It doesn't work very well. 352 00:19:24,046 --> 00:19:27,186 Speaker 2: It makes you actually feel awful. And he said that 353 00:19:27,526 --> 00:19:30,046 Speaker 2: if we understand the process by which our emotions and 354 00:19:30,086 --> 00:19:33,666 Speaker 2: our impulses come to be, we can intervene earlier. And 355 00:19:33,706 --> 00:19:37,386 Speaker 2: that did lead us to the earliest stage, which is situations. 356 00:19:37,466 --> 00:19:40,356 Speaker 2: And so we've been working together since that Yale meeting 357 00:19:40,636 --> 00:19:43,516 Speaker 2: on situational strategies. So if you are depressed, who can 358 00:19:43,536 --> 00:19:45,696 Speaker 2: you be with or where can you be where you 359 00:19:45,736 --> 00:19:49,356 Speaker 2: will feel less depressed? And not only for regulating your emotion, 360 00:19:49,536 --> 00:19:52,006 Speaker 2: but also your impulses. Like if you have a problem 361 00:19:52,046 --> 00:19:54,566 Speaker 2: with your phone, where can you work and who can 362 00:19:54,606 --> 00:19:56,666 Speaker 2: you be around that will make it more likely that 363 00:19:56,686 --> 00:19:59,086 Speaker 2: you will be off your phone? And so we've done 364 00:19:59,196 --> 00:20:01,276 Speaker 2: a lot of work together. I'll say that the work 365 00:20:01,296 --> 00:20:04,506 Speaker 2: that to me really kind of brought it home from 366 00:20:04,526 --> 00:20:08,206 Speaker 2: an experimental standpoint was that we randomly assigned kids. 367 00:20:08,806 --> 00:20:09,686 Speaker 1: In an experiment. 368 00:20:09,806 --> 00:20:11,966 Speaker 2: We did this with high school students. We also did 369 00:20:11,986 --> 00:20:14,946 Speaker 2: it with college students. We found the same results. We 370 00:20:14,986 --> 00:20:18,816 Speaker 2: randomly assigned students to one of three conditions. One was 371 00:20:18,836 --> 00:20:21,736 Speaker 2: a willpower condition. That was the control. We were like, 372 00:20:21,756 --> 00:20:24,416 Speaker 2: you know, willpower is really important. You got to try 373 00:20:24,456 --> 00:20:26,856 Speaker 2: hard to do things sometimes in life that aren't fun. 374 00:20:27,416 --> 00:20:31,306 Speaker 2: There was a treatment condition that was to learn about 375 00:20:31,346 --> 00:20:35,626 Speaker 2: situational agency, just learning that you could push temptations away. 376 00:20:35,806 --> 00:20:39,056 Speaker 2: That would be another way of managing temptation. And then finally, 377 00:20:39,076 --> 00:20:41,716 Speaker 2: there was a no treatment control, meaning like, okay, those 378 00:20:41,756 --> 00:20:44,096 Speaker 2: people didn't get anything. And here's what we found. One 379 00:20:44,146 --> 00:20:47,246 Speaker 2: week later, we asked students to report on their progress 380 00:20:47,346 --> 00:20:50,286 Speaker 2: toward their own academic goals. And we found that the 381 00:20:50,506 --> 00:20:53,926 Speaker 2: only difference that was significant was That if you learned 382 00:20:53,966 --> 00:20:57,506 Speaker 2: about situational agency, if you learn that you can proactively 383 00:20:57,936 --> 00:21:02,576 Speaker 2: change your situation to make doing the hard things easier, 384 00:21:02,916 --> 00:21:07,036 Speaker 2: that had a significant impact on your own goal achievement. 385 00:21:07,316 --> 00:21:10,166 Speaker 2: And it was better than either of the other two conditions. 386 00:21:11,246 --> 00:21:13,446 Speaker 2: But if simple changes to our situation can make our 387 00:21:13,526 --> 00:21:16,246 Speaker 2: goals easier to achieve, why do so few of us 388 00:21:16,306 --> 00:21:19,266 Speaker 2: make them? And why are we as a culture still 389 00:21:19,326 --> 00:21:22,446 Speaker 2: obsessed with doing things the hard way? Angela will answer 390 00:21:22,486 --> 00:21:25,086 Speaker 2: those questions and share her tips for how you can 391 00:21:25,126 --> 00:21:26,286 Speaker 2: take agency over your. 392 00:21:26,246 --> 00:21:29,496 Speaker 1: Own situations when The Happiness Lab returns from the break. 393 00:21:36,856 --> 00:21:39,736 Speaker 1: Welcome back to the first episode in our special back-to-school 394 00:21:39,776 --> 00:21:43,036 Speaker 1: season of The Happiness Lab. I'm chatting with my friend, 395 00:21:43,136 --> 00:21:47,256 Speaker 1: the psychologist Angela Duckworth, about her new book, Situated, Finding 396 00:21:47,276 --> 00:21:50,316 Speaker 1: the People and Places That Bring Out Your Best. Before 397 00:21:50,356 --> 00:21:53,446 Speaker 1: the break, Angela and I discussed why willpower is overrated 398 00:21:53,946 --> 00:21:55,786 Speaker 1: and how we can achieve our goals a little more 399 00:21:55,866 --> 00:21:58,586 Speaker 1: easily if we learn to take advantage of our situation. 400 00:21:59,306 --> 00:22:02,226 Speaker 1: But Angela says that embracing this way of thinking isn't 401 00:22:02,266 --> 00:22:04,986 Speaker 1: always easy in a culture that celebrates working to the 402 00:22:05,046 --> 00:22:08,786 Speaker 1: point of exhaustion. I think it's so interesting, you know, 403 00:22:08,806 --> 00:22:14,316 Speaker 1: the question of do we say to ourselves when we 404 00:22:14,476 --> 00:22:17,636 Speaker 1: see someone else who is using willpower, Willpower, you know, 405 00:22:17,736 --> 00:22:20,196 Speaker 1: frog and toad just trying not to eat the cookies. 406 00:22:20,216 --> 00:22:23,036 Speaker 1: When we see that, do we have an admiring view 407 00:22:23,336 --> 00:22:25,816 Speaker 1: of that person and of their character? Is it even 408 00:22:25,926 --> 00:22:29,906 Speaker 1: moral to us that that person is willing themselves not to? 409 00:22:29,926 --> 00:22:32,486 Speaker 1: And does it seem, by contrast, a little bit like 410 00:22:32,526 --> 00:22:35,186 Speaker 1: cheating to put the cookies on the grass and let 411 00:22:35,206 --> 00:22:37,306 Speaker 1: the birds take them? Or is it a little bit 412 00:22:37,326 --> 00:22:40,736 Speaker 1: cheating to install an app on your phone that prevents 413 00:22:40,776 --> 00:22:44,676 Speaker 1: you from going on Instagram, you know, between the hours 414 00:22:44,736 --> 00:22:47,496 Speaker 1: of nine and five? Like, is it morally better to 415 00:22:47,536 --> 00:22:50,216 Speaker 1: do it the hard way? The answer, by the way, 416 00:22:50,236 --> 00:22:50,816 Speaker 1: is yes. 417 00:22:51,116 --> 00:22:56,946 Speaker 2: Like, it does seem to people morally elevated or admirable, 418 00:22:56,966 --> 00:22:59,886 Speaker 2: a sign of character to just force yourself as opposed 419 00:22:59,926 --> 00:23:05,456 Speaker 2: to using the situation to advantage. You know, so many statues, movies, 420 00:23:05,856 --> 00:23:09,576 Speaker 2: theme songs are really about the triumph of the individual 421 00:23:09,676 --> 00:23:13,116 Speaker 2: against their situation. I think there is this valorization of 422 00:23:13,156 --> 00:23:18,176 Speaker 2: doing things the hard way of grimacing, white-knuckled. I don't know, 423 00:23:18,236 --> 00:23:20,756 Speaker 2: this is beyond data, Laurie, but I'm like, oh, they're 424 00:23:20,796 --> 00:23:23,936 Speaker 2: so male. Definitely some guy was like, oh, you know, 425 00:23:23,976 --> 00:23:26,646 Speaker 2: we want the hero to look like this. But to me, 426 00:23:26,686 --> 00:23:30,906 Speaker 2: it's so much smarter to to do the graceful move 427 00:23:31,226 --> 00:23:34,486 Speaker 2: of making the whole darn project easier? Like, why is 428 00:23:34,566 --> 00:23:40,036 Speaker 2: it heroic to white knuckle your way through difficulty? Isn't 429 00:23:40,156 --> 00:23:44,796 Speaker 2: it just as noble to use your situation to advantage? 430 00:23:45,176 --> 00:23:48,186 Speaker 2: So I think if we can get away from macho 431 00:23:48,366 --> 00:23:52,436 Speaker 2: ideas of You know, the only way to become fit, 432 00:23:52,546 --> 00:23:55,276 Speaker 2: to eat right, to like live a productive life is 433 00:23:55,336 --> 00:23:58,636 Speaker 2: to have a life of strain or just do it 434 00:23:59,196 --> 00:24:02,586 Speaker 2: and say, look, let's be smart about this. How can 435 00:24:02,626 --> 00:24:04,986 Speaker 2: I make this easier? It's not that you're not doing 436 00:24:05,046 --> 00:24:08,126 Speaker 2: hard things. It's that you're making hard things easier for 437 00:24:08,166 --> 00:24:11,956 Speaker 2: yourself to do. So that's one thing that I think 438 00:24:11,996 --> 00:24:13,856 Speaker 2: we get wrong when we take the macho approach, right? 439 00:24:13,896 --> 00:24:16,656 Speaker 2: We like people who do things through willpower alone. But 440 00:24:16,676 --> 00:24:18,936 Speaker 2: I think we also like people who achieve their goals 441 00:24:19,036 --> 00:24:22,656 Speaker 2: just alone, period. You know, especially in the individualist culture 442 00:24:22,696 --> 00:24:24,836 Speaker 2: that we're in. Especially in the United States, I was 443 00:24:24,856 --> 00:24:27,436 Speaker 2: going to say, yeah. Yeah, especially in the United States, right? 444 00:24:27,476 --> 00:24:29,956 Speaker 2: And so have you noticed some examples of this where 445 00:24:29,996 --> 00:24:32,216 Speaker 2: it's like we just assume that the way you achieve 446 00:24:32,256 --> 00:24:34,956 Speaker 2: your goal doesn't involve other people? It's sort of character 447 00:24:34,996 --> 00:24:36,816 Speaker 2: building to just go at it by yourself. 448 00:24:36,836 --> 00:24:37,376 Speaker 1: Yeah. 449 00:24:37,616 --> 00:24:42,776 Speaker 2: I mean, I notice this even in my own narrative, right? Like, oh, 450 00:24:42,856 --> 00:24:45,306 Speaker 2: did you have somebody help you write Grit? And I 451 00:24:45,786 --> 00:24:47,826 Speaker 2: don't even let the person finish the question. I'm like, no, 452 00:24:48,046 --> 00:24:51,166 Speaker 2: I wrote it myself. I didn't have a book coach. 453 00:24:51,526 --> 00:24:54,846 Speaker 2: I didn't have a consultant. And I will tell you 454 00:24:54,866 --> 00:24:58,596 Speaker 2: with the second book that this was a book written 455 00:24:58,676 --> 00:25:02,276 Speaker 2: by one scientist with a huge pit crew. I mean, 456 00:25:02,516 --> 00:25:04,996 Speaker 2: I had multiple editors. 457 00:25:05,016 --> 00:25:05,126 Speaker 1: I had. 458 00:25:06,516 --> 00:25:10,916 Speaker 2: multiple consultants. I had friends like you who gave me 459 00:25:11,056 --> 00:25:14,356 Speaker 2: very helpful advice. I had a husband who poured over 460 00:25:14,446 --> 00:25:18,106 Speaker 2: every page and gave me all kinds of ideas and feedback. 461 00:25:18,446 --> 00:25:21,066 Speaker 2: My daughters read the book and made line edits. I mean, 462 00:25:21,446 --> 00:25:24,586 Speaker 2: my editor at one point said, you know, this book 463 00:25:24,686 --> 00:25:28,386 Speaker 2: isn't crowdsourced. It's mob sourced. He was like, who are 464 00:25:28,406 --> 00:25:30,026 Speaker 2: all these people in the Google Doc? They're like 45 465 00:25:30,026 --> 00:25:31,966 Speaker 2: of them. And I was like, well, I'm just getting 466 00:25:31,986 --> 00:25:36,296 Speaker 2: a little help from my friends. And Doing things DIY 467 00:25:36,316 --> 00:25:39,436 Speaker 2: does have some appeal, right? Like, because you get 100% 468 00:25:39,436 --> 00:25:42,126 Speaker 2: of the credit, you don't have to divide the pie. 469 00:25:42,656 --> 00:25:46,136 Speaker 2: But in my older age, Lori, I think it is 470 00:25:46,196 --> 00:25:50,476 Speaker 2: something that I'm increasingly into. Very happily embracing. If I 471 00:25:50,506 --> 00:25:55,136 Speaker 2: can produce a better book because I had multiple editors, consultants, 472 00:25:55,256 --> 00:25:59,216 Speaker 2: friends and the like, you know, help me, then awesome. 473 00:26:00,016 --> 00:26:02,076 Speaker 1: So those are some of the misconceptions that we have 474 00:26:02,166 --> 00:26:04,566 Speaker 1: about why we shouldn't be using the situation. Right. We 475 00:26:04,586 --> 00:26:08,106 Speaker 1: kind of moralize willpower. We moralize doing stuff on our own. 476 00:26:08,626 --> 00:26:11,386 Speaker 1: I think there's another misconception about the situation that leads 477 00:26:11,446 --> 00:26:14,546 Speaker 1: people not to realize its value. It's just the idea 478 00:26:14,586 --> 00:26:17,826 Speaker 1: that we assume the situation can't be changed, that we're 479 00:26:17,846 --> 00:26:20,176 Speaker 1: kind of stuck with it. When there's cultural wisdom about 480 00:26:20,216 --> 00:26:22,936 Speaker 1: the situation, it's like, well, you got to radically accept 481 00:26:22,976 --> 00:26:26,056 Speaker 1: what's going on. We have that serenity prayer. But you've 482 00:26:26,096 --> 00:26:28,896 Speaker 1: pushed for this alternative serenity prayer that you talk about 483 00:26:28,916 --> 00:26:30,436 Speaker 1: in your book. Do you want to share that with us? 484 00:26:31,256 --> 00:26:34,556 Speaker 2: Serenity prayer was written by Reinhold Niebuhr. who was a 485 00:26:34,616 --> 00:26:40,366 Speaker 2: Protestant minister, and he was very active during World War II, 486 00:26:40,926 --> 00:26:43,326 Speaker 2: advocating really for the United States to take a more 487 00:26:43,446 --> 00:26:47,156 Speaker 2: active role in what then later became widely known as 488 00:26:47,176 --> 00:26:51,156 Speaker 2: atrocities against humankind with what the Germans were doing. And 489 00:26:51,176 --> 00:26:52,876 Speaker 2: he was trying to kind of, I think, rouse the 490 00:26:52,916 --> 00:26:56,806 Speaker 2: American public into an awareness that No, no, no. We 491 00:26:56,826 --> 00:26:58,866 Speaker 2: should not be hanging out on the sidelines. You know, 492 00:26:58,886 --> 00:27:01,506 Speaker 2: we're an ocean away, but we need to take action. 493 00:27:01,946 --> 00:27:06,506 Speaker 2: And he wrote this prayer that has taken different forms because, 494 00:27:06,566 --> 00:27:11,176 Speaker 2: for example, Alcoholics Anonymous has really embraced it. But the prayer, 495 00:27:11,616 --> 00:27:15,436 Speaker 2: widely known as the Serenity Prayer, goes like this. God 496 00:27:15,496 --> 00:27:19,116 Speaker 2: grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. 497 00:27:19,836 --> 00:27:24,206 Speaker 2: Courage to change the things I can. and wisdom to 498 00:27:24,266 --> 00:27:28,046 Speaker 2: know the difference. But what to me was so interesting 499 00:27:28,106 --> 00:27:31,066 Speaker 2: about the historical context of this prayer is that he 500 00:27:31,146 --> 00:27:35,166 Speaker 2: wrote that prayer very much as a call to action, right? 501 00:27:35,286 --> 00:27:38,826 Speaker 2: You should know when it is time to have courage 502 00:27:38,916 --> 00:27:39,536 Speaker 2: to change the. 503 00:27:39,476 --> 00:27:42,096 Speaker 1: Things you can. And of course, you know, you should 504 00:27:42,116 --> 00:27:46,416 Speaker 1: have the serenity to accept the things that you can't change. Okay, great. 505 00:27:47,036 --> 00:27:51,176 Speaker 2: I think For the situation, people assume that you should 506 00:27:51,196 --> 00:27:53,396 Speaker 2: have serenity about the situation because, you know, you can't 507 00:27:53,436 --> 00:27:56,156 Speaker 2: change your zip code. You can't change your family. You 508 00:27:56,176 --> 00:27:58,776 Speaker 2: can't change your boss who you hate. Make the best 509 00:27:58,836 --> 00:28:01,946 Speaker 2: of it. Change what's inside. Change your attitude. Change your mindset. 510 00:28:02,046 --> 00:28:02,886 Speaker 1: Be an optimist. 511 00:28:03,466 --> 00:28:06,256 Speaker 2: And I don't think that's what Reinhold Niebuhr wanted. And 512 00:28:06,336 --> 00:28:09,696 Speaker 2: I say that in part because I researched this prayer 513 00:28:09,856 --> 00:28:13,186 Speaker 2: and then what his daughter, Elizabeth Sifton, wrote about what 514 00:28:13,226 --> 00:28:16,586 Speaker 2: her father meant. And it was very clearly the opposite, 515 00:28:16,626 --> 00:28:19,646 Speaker 2: that he wanted us to take the situation into our 516 00:28:19,826 --> 00:28:22,666 Speaker 2: own hands, that the situation of the Jews in Germany 517 00:28:22,706 --> 00:28:26,456 Speaker 2: was unacceptable and that we needed to change it. Another 518 00:28:26,506 --> 00:28:30,316 Speaker 2: person who is sometimes miscredited with saying, well, you can 519 00:28:30,356 --> 00:28:32,956 Speaker 2: only change what's inside you, but you can't change your situation, 520 00:28:33,596 --> 00:28:37,466 Speaker 2: is Viktor Frankl. Viktor Frankl wrote Man's Search for Meaning, 521 00:28:37,506 --> 00:28:41,586 Speaker 2: of course, about his experience in the camps, including Auschwitz, 522 00:28:41,866 --> 00:28:44,306 Speaker 2: during World War II. And he survived, but his wife 523 00:28:44,426 --> 00:28:48,046 Speaker 2: and his parents did not. And he indeed writes about 524 00:28:48,126 --> 00:28:51,466 Speaker 2: how there are times in life when the only thing 525 00:28:51,506 --> 00:28:53,846 Speaker 2: you can do is to change what's inside your head, 526 00:28:53,946 --> 00:28:56,086 Speaker 2: because if you are in a concentration camp, you can't 527 00:28:56,126 --> 00:28:58,846 Speaker 2: just decide to walk out. You can change very little. 528 00:28:59,346 --> 00:29:02,316 Speaker 2: But in Man's Search for Meaning— He says that it 529 00:29:02,356 --> 00:29:06,356 Speaker 2: would be masochistic to suffer through a situation that you 530 00:29:06,396 --> 00:29:09,296 Speaker 2: can change. And if you can change the situation, that 531 00:29:09,356 --> 00:29:11,786 Speaker 2: is the first and most important thing to do. So 532 00:29:11,826 --> 00:29:14,986 Speaker 2: when I think of changing the things that we can, 533 00:29:15,106 --> 00:29:18,386 Speaker 2: controlling the controllables, as a lot of athletic coaches like 534 00:29:18,426 --> 00:29:22,376 Speaker 2: to say, I think that does include the situation. You 535 00:29:22,416 --> 00:29:24,716 Speaker 2: can choose where to put your phone. You can choose 536 00:29:24,756 --> 00:29:28,516 Speaker 2: the people that you spend more time with. You can change, 537 00:29:28,916 --> 00:29:31,696 Speaker 2: in many cases, the zip code that you live in 538 00:29:32,056 --> 00:29:34,216 Speaker 2: or at least the block in that zip code where 539 00:29:34,256 --> 00:29:37,636 Speaker 2: you live. You can change where your desk is at work. 540 00:29:37,676 --> 00:29:40,646 Speaker 2: You can change, in many cases, whom you work for. 541 00:29:41,076 --> 00:29:45,466 Speaker 2: So it is, to me, an element of agency to 542 00:29:45,566 --> 00:29:49,806 Speaker 2: change your situation. It's not only internal matters. mental work. 543 00:29:51,156 --> 00:29:53,196 Speaker 1: And so now that we figured out that we should 544 00:29:53,216 --> 00:29:55,656 Speaker 1: be changing our situation, we can ask the question, how 545 00:29:55,716 --> 00:29:58,596 Speaker 1: do we do that? And you've argued that agency over 546 00:29:58,636 --> 00:30:01,736 Speaker 1: your situation requires four different elements. And I want to 547 00:30:01,776 --> 00:30:04,096 Speaker 1: go through each of these in turn. The first of 548 00:30:04,136 --> 00:30:07,996 Speaker 1: these is setting up your space. Why is the immediate 549 00:30:08,036 --> 00:30:09,326 Speaker 1: space around us so critical? 550 00:30:10,086 --> 00:30:13,566 Speaker 2: Well, I did try to give people an understanding of 551 00:30:13,606 --> 00:30:16,736 Speaker 2: their situation at four levels, you know, from near to far, 552 00:30:17,236 --> 00:30:20,156 Speaker 2: from easy to change to hard to change. But the 553 00:30:20,336 --> 00:30:24,036 Speaker 2: nearest and the easiest change is your personal space. It 554 00:30:24,116 --> 00:30:27,426 Speaker 2: turns out that scientists who study space They define personal 555 00:30:27,446 --> 00:30:31,266 Speaker 2: space as the three-foot radius around a person. And the 556 00:30:31,326 --> 00:30:33,226 Speaker 2: easy way to do this is like if you literally 557 00:30:33,266 --> 00:30:35,386 Speaker 2: put out your arms, that's your personal space. 558 00:30:35,486 --> 00:30:37,786 Speaker 1: I can't in here because I'm in like my podcast closet. 559 00:30:37,806 --> 00:30:39,756 Speaker 1: I'm going to rip my green screen. Yeah, you will 560 00:30:39,816 --> 00:30:41,996 Speaker 1: not go for your biker foot. Yeah. 561 00:30:42,336 --> 00:30:45,076 Speaker 2: So when you get outside, Lori, you know, it's like 562 00:30:45,096 --> 00:30:49,716 Speaker 2: the Leonardo da Vinci sketch. It's very important what's in 563 00:30:49,756 --> 00:30:52,976 Speaker 2: your three-foot radius because that is what you can reach. 564 00:30:53,396 --> 00:30:56,226 Speaker 2: And I actually think as a psychologist, that's why the 565 00:30:56,366 --> 00:31:01,656 Speaker 2: objects in your personal space have a disproportionate impact on you. 566 00:31:01,936 --> 00:31:04,216 Speaker 2: You can see them, they're in clear focus, and you 567 00:31:04,236 --> 00:31:05,876 Speaker 2: can reach them without getting up. 568 00:31:06,376 --> 00:31:09,366 Speaker 1: And that's huge. If you have a. 569 00:31:09,526 --> 00:31:13,406 Speaker 2: Bowl of chips in front of you that you are 570 00:31:13,446 --> 00:31:16,366 Speaker 2: trying to resist and you push it four feet away 571 00:31:16,726 --> 00:31:18,466 Speaker 2: such that every time you get a chip, you have 572 00:31:18,486 --> 00:31:20,306 Speaker 2: to like get up out of your chair and reach over. 573 00:31:20,896 --> 00:31:23,376 Speaker 2: I guarantee you, you eat fewer chips than if they 574 00:31:23,496 --> 00:31:26,556 Speaker 2: are two feet or one feet away. And we know 575 00:31:26,596 --> 00:31:29,456 Speaker 2: this not just from intuition. There's really good studies in 576 00:31:29,476 --> 00:31:31,436 Speaker 2: behavioral economics that have found this. Tell me about the 577 00:31:31,476 --> 00:31:35,676 Speaker 2: hospital cafeteria study. So there was a cafeteria that decided 578 00:31:35,696 --> 00:31:38,446 Speaker 2: that they would try to get people who are in 579 00:31:38,486 --> 00:31:41,666 Speaker 2: the cafeteria, these are typically families of patients, try to 580 00:31:41,686 --> 00:31:44,206 Speaker 2: get them to eat healthier. And so they thought about 581 00:31:44,286 --> 00:31:46,176 Speaker 2: different ways to do this. Of course, one way to 582 00:31:46,216 --> 00:31:48,816 Speaker 2: do it is to pay people to eat healthier. You 583 00:31:48,836 --> 00:31:51,256 Speaker 2: can incentivize them that way. But they thought they would 584 00:31:51,276 --> 00:31:54,036 Speaker 2: just change the space in which people were making their 585 00:31:54,056 --> 00:31:56,976 Speaker 2: food selection. So, for example, when you put water bottles 586 00:31:57,556 --> 00:32:00,506 Speaker 2: at eye level instead of soda bottles at eye level, 587 00:32:00,606 --> 00:32:03,446 Speaker 2: and you also put a little basket of water bottles 588 00:32:03,626 --> 00:32:06,906 Speaker 2: right by the register where while you're standing there, you 589 00:32:06,946 --> 00:32:09,006 Speaker 2: can simply grab one and put it on your tray, 590 00:32:09,366 --> 00:32:12,846 Speaker 2: that increases the purchase of water bottles, decreases the the 591 00:32:12,896 --> 00:32:16,756 Speaker 2: purchases of soda. Same has been found for healthy foods. 592 00:32:16,816 --> 00:32:19,296 Speaker 2: So if you want to eat fruits and vegetables, you 593 00:32:19,336 --> 00:32:23,036 Speaker 2: should put them on the counter where they are within 594 00:32:23,136 --> 00:32:26,896 Speaker 2: sight and within reach. If you have to do anything like, oh, 595 00:32:26,936 --> 00:32:28,856 Speaker 2: you have to open the package, you have to open 596 00:32:28,896 --> 00:32:32,216 Speaker 2: up the refrigerator, that friction is going to make it 597 00:32:32,256 --> 00:32:35,276 Speaker 2: less likely that you will enact that behavior. So you 598 00:32:35,316 --> 00:32:37,516 Speaker 2: can friction up the things you don't want to do, 599 00:32:37,536 --> 00:32:40,716 Speaker 2: and you can friction down the things that you do 600 00:32:40,756 --> 00:32:41,096 Speaker 2: want to do. 601 00:32:41,706 --> 00:32:43,886 Speaker 1: I love this idea. Even in my little podcast studio 602 00:32:43,926 --> 00:32:46,286 Speaker 1: right now, I'm using elements of this stuff. Like I've 603 00:32:46,306 --> 00:32:48,536 Speaker 1: been trying to hydrate more for various reasons. And so 604 00:32:48,576 --> 00:32:50,616 Speaker 1: I have this huge glass of water that's right here 605 00:32:50,636 --> 00:32:53,256 Speaker 1: that just makes it really easy to do. I'm also 606 00:32:53,276 --> 00:32:54,576 Speaker 1: doing this in a bad way, which is that I 607 00:32:54,596 --> 00:32:56,576 Speaker 1: have my phone here. I forgot to leave my phone 608 00:32:56,656 --> 00:32:59,316 Speaker 1: outside the studio and it's been beeping while I'm here. 609 00:32:59,356 --> 00:33:01,406 Speaker 1: And I'm having a really hard time not looking at 610 00:33:01,426 --> 00:33:03,706 Speaker 1: like who's been texting me. Literally, I'm in like a 611 00:33:03,866 --> 00:33:06,726 Speaker 1: two foot closet and I still have the effects of 612 00:33:06,746 --> 00:33:08,966 Speaker 1: the space around me. Lori, do you know the brain 613 00:33:08,986 --> 00:33:12,356 Speaker 1: drain study by Adrian Ward? I do, but please talk 614 00:33:12,396 --> 00:33:12,756 Speaker 1: about that. 615 00:33:13,336 --> 00:33:16,936 Speaker 2: So Adrian Ward and his collaborators did a random assignment 616 00:33:16,976 --> 00:33:20,486 Speaker 2: study where college students, I believe, were all taking an 617 00:33:20,556 --> 00:33:24,346 Speaker 2: IQ test. And there are three conditions. In one group, 618 00:33:24,546 --> 00:33:26,926 Speaker 2: the phone is as close as possible. It's on the 619 00:33:26,946 --> 00:33:30,446 Speaker 2: desk with you while you're taking the IQ test. The 620 00:33:30,586 --> 00:33:33,106 Speaker 2: second group is it's in the room, but outside of 621 00:33:33,126 --> 00:33:35,466 Speaker 2: your reach, so more than three feet away. And then 622 00:33:35,486 --> 00:33:37,706 Speaker 2: I actually think it's in their backpack, so it's out 623 00:33:37,746 --> 00:33:40,206 Speaker 2: of sight and out of reach. And then the final 624 00:33:40,266 --> 00:33:42,546 Speaker 2: condition is it's in another room. It's in a secure 625 00:33:42,586 --> 00:33:46,376 Speaker 2: locker outside. So near to far. And the question is, 626 00:33:46,656 --> 00:33:49,816 Speaker 2: what does your IQ score look like under these three conditions? 627 00:33:50,376 --> 00:33:52,936 Speaker 2: And the bar graphs are beautiful. I mean, you are 628 00:33:53,016 --> 00:33:55,556 Speaker 2: your dumbest when your phone is nearest you, and you 629 00:33:55,596 --> 00:33:59,096 Speaker 2: are your smartest when the phone is far away. I've 630 00:33:59,256 --> 00:34:03,186 Speaker 2: replicated this finding in the field with teenagers. The farther 631 00:34:03,286 --> 00:34:06,866 Speaker 2: the phone while they study... the higher their GPA from 632 00:34:06,946 --> 00:34:09,446 Speaker 2: school records, by the way. That study is my favorite 633 00:34:09,466 --> 00:34:12,266 Speaker 2: study to share with Yale undergraduates because I'm telling them 634 00:34:12,306 --> 00:34:15,186 Speaker 2: this and they're very into their grades, the Yale undergraduates. 635 00:34:15,446 --> 00:34:17,166 Speaker 2: And they have this moment of horror where they're in 636 00:34:17,206 --> 00:34:18,926 Speaker 2: my class where they look and their phone is like 637 00:34:18,986 --> 00:34:20,186 Speaker 2: sitting on their desk right near them. 638 00:34:20,226 --> 00:34:21,146 Speaker 1: They're like, dun, dun, dun. 639 00:34:21,346 --> 00:34:23,026 Speaker 2: I showed that on the very first day of my 640 00:34:23,066 --> 00:34:25,686 Speaker 2: class because I don't know about your classroom, but I 641 00:34:25,706 --> 00:34:28,036 Speaker 2: will say that my classroom is like you walk in 642 00:34:28,136 --> 00:34:31,316 Speaker 2: and it's like 1980. So on the first day of class, 643 00:34:31,456 --> 00:34:34,856 Speaker 2: I teach them the brain drain study. I say this 644 00:34:34,896 --> 00:34:37,876 Speaker 2: was called the brain drain study by the scientists who 645 00:34:37,916 --> 00:34:41,496 Speaker 2: ran it because they believe that some of your cognitive 646 00:34:41,536 --> 00:34:46,146 Speaker 2: bandwidth is drained away while you are paying attention, even 647 00:34:46,486 --> 00:34:49,786 Speaker 2: in little fits and starts to the phone you're trying 648 00:34:49,886 --> 00:34:51,086 Speaker 2: to not look at. 649 00:34:51,506 --> 00:34:51,706 Speaker 1: Right. 650 00:34:52,086 --> 00:34:54,146 Speaker 2: I show them that. And then I say, here's the 651 00:34:54,186 --> 00:34:57,496 Speaker 2: tech policy for this class. There will be no phones. 652 00:34:58,046 --> 00:35:01,846 Speaker 2: There will be no tablets and there will be no laptops. 653 00:35:02,286 --> 00:35:05,356 Speaker 2: And it begins now and it ends at the very 654 00:35:05,396 --> 00:35:07,576 Speaker 2: end of class. And by that, I mean it includes 655 00:35:07,656 --> 00:35:11,596 Speaker 2: our breaks. So if you need to use any electronic 656 00:35:11,656 --> 00:35:13,796 Speaker 2: device for any reason, you can step out of the 657 00:35:13,836 --> 00:35:16,266 Speaker 2: room and You can do that as often as you 658 00:35:16,306 --> 00:35:19,686 Speaker 2: need to. But at one hour intervals, my TAs are 659 00:35:19,726 --> 00:35:23,086 Speaker 2: going to be giving you a point for not having 660 00:35:23,106 --> 00:35:26,266 Speaker 2: your phone out, for not having a tablet out and 661 00:35:26,326 --> 00:35:30,536 Speaker 2: not having a laptop out. And every hour they'll be 662 00:35:30,556 --> 00:35:33,816 Speaker 2: checking if you do have one of those devices out, 663 00:35:33,916 --> 00:35:36,216 Speaker 2: not even that you're using it, just out and visible. 664 00:35:36,656 --> 00:35:39,116 Speaker 1: You will not get your point. And the reason is 665 00:35:39,156 --> 00:35:41,936 Speaker 1: that Adrienne's other studies show that it's bad to have 666 00:35:41,976 --> 00:35:44,086 Speaker 1: your own phone and your own screen out. But if 667 00:35:44,126 --> 00:35:46,426 Speaker 1: you're near someone else, it's actually even worse. Like the 668 00:35:46,486 --> 00:35:49,246 Speaker 1: secondhand smoke of being around somebody else's screen. I will 669 00:35:49,306 --> 00:35:52,386 Speaker 1: say that there are students who have an accommodation. You know, 670 00:35:52,446 --> 00:35:54,726 Speaker 1: they can only take notes on a laptop. They can't 671 00:35:54,746 --> 00:35:56,306 Speaker 1: take them by hand. I have an answer to that. 672 00:35:56,426 --> 00:35:59,366 Speaker 1: I employ a full-time note taker. I was like, no problem. 673 00:35:59,586 --> 00:36:02,356 Speaker 1: I'm going to take notes for every class. So there 674 00:36:02,556 --> 00:36:06,276 Speaker 1: are no excuses. There are no students in my classes 675 00:36:06,376 --> 00:36:09,136 Speaker 1: on electronics. So that is the power of our very 676 00:36:09,196 --> 00:36:11,816 Speaker 1: close by space. It is affecting us more than we think, 677 00:36:11,876 --> 00:36:14,406 Speaker 1: which raises this interesting question of like, what should we 678 00:36:14,466 --> 00:36:17,286 Speaker 1: be putting in that very close space? And one of 679 00:36:17,306 --> 00:36:19,466 Speaker 1: the things you suggest in your book is that we 680 00:36:19,526 --> 00:36:22,336 Speaker 1: really want in our close space to have the right reminders. 681 00:36:22,756 --> 00:36:26,026 Speaker 1: Why are reminders so important? You know, our attention is 682 00:36:26,226 --> 00:36:28,116 Speaker 1: just whatever is in front of us. You know, we're 683 00:36:28,136 --> 00:36:31,336 Speaker 1: not that different from dogs and squirrels. It's like, oh, chips. 684 00:36:32,016 --> 00:36:33,196 Speaker 1: You know, like, oh, phone. 685 00:36:33,596 --> 00:36:35,416 Speaker 2: So if we know that, then we have to architect 686 00:36:35,456 --> 00:36:37,276 Speaker 2: our space in a way that reminds us of the 687 00:36:37,316 --> 00:36:39,036 Speaker 2: things that we do want to have our minds on. 688 00:36:39,476 --> 00:36:42,956 Speaker 2: There's a restaurateur I really admire, Will Gadara, who was 689 00:36:43,156 --> 00:36:46,236 Speaker 2: the restaurateur for Eleven Madison Park, and that was deemed 690 00:36:46,296 --> 00:36:49,216 Speaker 2: the best restaurant in the world. And He's very thoughtful. 691 00:36:49,396 --> 00:36:52,316 Speaker 2: And when I was interviewing him, he like waved around 692 00:36:52,336 --> 00:36:56,156 Speaker 2: this kind of like paperweight. And it was engraved with 693 00:36:56,176 --> 00:36:59,296 Speaker 2: the saying that his father had about being bold and 694 00:36:59,536 --> 00:37:02,256 Speaker 2: taking risks. And Will would be able to say that 695 00:37:02,646 --> 00:37:05,026 Speaker 2: verbatim to you because it's like he doesn't need a 696 00:37:05,146 --> 00:37:07,766 Speaker 2: reminder of a one sentence thing that his father said. 697 00:37:07,806 --> 00:37:10,166 Speaker 2: So why did he go to the trouble of saying? 698 00:37:10,506 --> 00:37:13,266 Speaker 2: keeping this paperweight on his desk. It's the same reason 699 00:37:13,326 --> 00:37:16,646 Speaker 2: why Toby Cosgrove at Cleveland Clinic had his own paperweight 700 00:37:16,686 --> 00:37:19,716 Speaker 2: made with his own reminder of, you know, what can 701 00:37:19,756 --> 00:37:22,256 Speaker 2: be conceived, can be achieved. I mean, all of these 702 00:37:23,086 --> 00:37:27,086 Speaker 2: reminders are there, not because we can't remember one sentence, 703 00:37:27,426 --> 00:37:31,186 Speaker 2: but because we want to have that brought to mind. 704 00:37:31,566 --> 00:37:33,706 Speaker 2: You know, there are many people who have a religious 705 00:37:34,186 --> 00:37:36,336 Speaker 2: faith that's part of their identity. 706 00:37:36,356 --> 00:37:40,156 Speaker 1: You know, why do we wear the Jewish star or 707 00:37:40,196 --> 00:37:41,416 Speaker 1: the cross? Or, you know, for a. 708 00:37:43,756 --> 00:37:46,856 Speaker 2: People have needlepoint pillows with, you know, phrases that they 709 00:37:46,896 --> 00:37:51,176 Speaker 2: want to remember. It's because human attention is very reactive. 710 00:37:51,616 --> 00:37:56,066 Speaker 2: So you have to install in your space things that 711 00:37:56,106 --> 00:37:58,326 Speaker 2: you want to be reminded of. I'll give you an 712 00:37:58,386 --> 00:38:02,346 Speaker 2: example of a world-class achiever that is familiar to many 713 00:38:02,366 --> 00:38:06,066 Speaker 2: of us. Michael Phelps is not only the most decorated 714 00:38:06,336 --> 00:38:09,956 Speaker 2: swimmer in history, he's also the most decorated swimmer Olympic 715 00:38:10,096 --> 00:38:14,296 Speaker 2: athlete in history. And one of the salient characteristics of 716 00:38:14,416 --> 00:38:19,096 Speaker 2: his childhood is that he had a great situation. He 717 00:38:19,196 --> 00:38:22,256 Speaker 2: had a terrific mom. I think Debbie Phelps should win 718 00:38:22,296 --> 00:38:24,986 Speaker 2: the Nobel Prize for being a mom. He had a 719 00:38:25,046 --> 00:38:28,906 Speaker 2: great coach named Bob Bowman. But talking about physical space, Michael, 720 00:38:28,986 --> 00:38:31,906 Speaker 2: even at age 11, would write down on a piece 721 00:38:32,166 --> 00:38:35,966 Speaker 2: of paper his goals, Michael's goals and his little 11 722 00:38:35,966 --> 00:38:39,296 Speaker 2: year old boy handwriting. like very specific swim times. He 723 00:38:39,316 --> 00:38:40,496 Speaker 2: was trying to do it at the very bottom. He 724 00:38:40,516 --> 00:38:43,176 Speaker 2: was like, I will do this through perseverance and consistency. 725 00:38:43,496 --> 00:38:46,816 Speaker 1: It was very cute. But why did he post that 726 00:38:47,236 --> 00:38:50,336 Speaker 1: near his bed? Well, because Michael and his coach figured 727 00:38:50,416 --> 00:38:52,656 Speaker 1: out that he needed to be reminded of these goals. 728 00:38:52,716 --> 00:38:56,056 Speaker 1: I mean, this little boy had the wisdom of Socrates 729 00:38:56,156 --> 00:38:58,936 Speaker 1: to say, you know what, I'm going to write down 730 00:38:59,116 --> 00:39:01,936 Speaker 1: what's important to me and I'm going to install it 731 00:39:02,436 --> 00:39:05,336 Speaker 1: in my personal space so that every day I see it. 732 00:39:05,386 --> 00:39:08,106 Speaker 1: And Michael has said that on days that he was discouraged, 733 00:39:08,146 --> 00:39:11,296 Speaker 1: for example, he would look at that for motivation. And finally, 734 00:39:11,356 --> 00:39:12,876 Speaker 1: just to give you a little data on this, I 735 00:39:12,896 --> 00:39:15,776 Speaker 1: did a study, Laurie, with the college board. So these 736 00:39:15,876 --> 00:39:17,646 Speaker 1: are the makers of the SAT. 737 00:39:18,206 --> 00:39:21,046 Speaker 2: We asked thousands of teenagers across the country what they 738 00:39:21,066 --> 00:39:24,466 Speaker 2: did to practice and study for the SAT. And they 739 00:39:24,506 --> 00:39:26,486 Speaker 2: kind of filled out a little inventory of all things 740 00:39:26,506 --> 00:39:28,526 Speaker 2: they did. And the one thing that I remember from 741 00:39:28,546 --> 00:39:31,126 Speaker 2: that study, because it's so consistent with what Michael did, 742 00:39:31,586 --> 00:39:35,066 Speaker 2: is the best predictor of all the individual strategies was 743 00:39:35,446 --> 00:39:39,996 Speaker 2: I write down my study goals concretely, and I put 744 00:39:40,036 --> 00:39:42,976 Speaker 2: it somewhere that I will see it. So yeah, I 745 00:39:43,156 --> 00:39:48,216 Speaker 2: am a big believer in screensavers and stickers for your laptop. 746 00:39:48,726 --> 00:39:50,406 Speaker 2: And I don't want to tell everybody in America to 747 00:39:50,446 --> 00:39:53,006 Speaker 2: go out and get a tattoo, but in whatever way 748 00:39:53,066 --> 00:39:58,066 Speaker 2: you can install reminders to bring your attention back to 749 00:39:58,206 --> 00:40:01,306 Speaker 2: your values, to your goals, and the things that you 750 00:40:01,346 --> 00:40:04,106 Speaker 2: want to keep top of mind, it all beats willpower. 751 00:40:05,356 --> 00:40:09,376 Speaker 1: So, being intentional about our space, check. But that's just 752 00:40:09,416 --> 00:40:13,136 Speaker 1: the first of Angela's four pillars of situational agency. When 753 00:40:13,156 --> 00:40:15,476 Speaker 1: we get back from the break, Angela will break down 754 00:40:15,556 --> 00:40:18,216 Speaker 1: the final three. And I'll also ask her to make 755 00:40:18,256 --> 00:40:22,396 Speaker 1: a final ruling on what's more powerful, the situation or grit, 756 00:40:22,796 --> 00:40:25,986 Speaker 1: the trait that Angela has spent her entire career proselytizing. 757 00:40:26,616 --> 00:40:29,556 Speaker 1: We'll hear her answer when the Happiness Lab returns in 758 00:40:29,596 --> 00:40:41,406 Speaker 1: a moment. We want to have these reminders in our 759 00:40:41,446 --> 00:40:43,826 Speaker 1: space of what our goals are. We want to friction 760 00:40:43,886 --> 00:40:46,226 Speaker 1: up and friction down, as you mentioned. We want things 761 00:40:46,266 --> 00:40:48,006 Speaker 1: that we don't want to do to feel really hard. 762 00:40:48,026 --> 00:40:49,876 Speaker 1: They have lots of friction. We want the things that 763 00:40:49,916 --> 00:40:52,116 Speaker 1: we want to do to feel really easy, to feel 764 00:40:52,156 --> 00:40:55,836 Speaker 1: really rewarding. But that's just setting up our space. Now 765 00:40:55,876 --> 00:40:58,576 Speaker 1: we're moving out a little bit beyond just our immediate 766 00:40:58,596 --> 00:41:01,456 Speaker 1: space to the things that can be in our neighborhood, 767 00:41:01,496 --> 00:41:03,376 Speaker 1: so to speak. And one of the biggest ones that 768 00:41:03,396 --> 00:41:06,766 Speaker 1: you argue that we should harness is the people around us. 769 00:41:07,306 --> 00:41:11,046 Speaker 1: Why are peers such an important part of the situation? Well, Lori, 770 00:41:11,086 --> 00:41:14,026 Speaker 1: I think being friends with you has influenced me. And 771 00:41:14,166 --> 00:41:16,896 Speaker 1: I am guessing that being friends with me has influenced you. 772 00:41:16,916 --> 00:41:18,436 Speaker 1: We are peers. We talk. 773 00:41:18,816 --> 00:41:22,176 Speaker 2: We're very influenced by what the other person thinks is 774 00:41:22,316 --> 00:41:25,856 Speaker 2: cool or a bad idea. You know, I think that 775 00:41:26,196 --> 00:41:29,436 Speaker 2: in less obvious ways, our peers influence us. Just on 776 00:41:29,476 --> 00:41:32,436 Speaker 2: the way over to this conversation, I was talking to 777 00:41:32,456 --> 00:41:36,086 Speaker 2: a young woman who's 22 years old, and she said, 778 00:41:36,146 --> 00:41:37,566 Speaker 2: I got caught up in the current. 779 00:41:37,976 --> 00:41:38,156 Speaker 1: Right? 780 00:41:38,196 --> 00:41:40,416 Speaker 2: So she graduated from college with a lot of other 781 00:41:40,436 --> 00:41:44,326 Speaker 2: people in applied math, and everybody's going to go into 782 00:41:44,346 --> 00:41:46,506 Speaker 2: management consulting. You know, you look to your left, you 783 00:41:46,526 --> 00:41:48,366 Speaker 2: look to your right, and you just swim where everybody 784 00:41:48,386 --> 00:41:51,746 Speaker 2: else is swimming. So I think in profound ways, we 785 00:41:51,806 --> 00:41:55,006 Speaker 2: are influenced by the people around us. One of the 786 00:41:55,026 --> 00:41:58,156 Speaker 2: people that I interviewed for the book had studied Alcoholics 787 00:41:58,196 --> 00:42:01,796 Speaker 2: Anonymous for a long time. And This was a professor 788 00:42:01,816 --> 00:42:03,896 Speaker 2: at Harvard Medical School, and I asked him, why did 789 00:42:03,936 --> 00:42:07,236 Speaker 2: you end up studying Alcoholics Anonymous? And he said, oh, well, 790 00:42:07,356 --> 00:42:10,456 Speaker 2: this thing, which costs nothing, right? It's not a patented drug. 791 00:42:10,896 --> 00:42:14,316 Speaker 2: It's just a group of peers who, in some church 792 00:42:14,376 --> 00:42:17,746 Speaker 2: basement on folding chairs with a really bad cup of coffee, 793 00:42:18,346 --> 00:42:22,546 Speaker 2: spend an hour together talking about trying not to drink. 794 00:42:23,006 --> 00:42:27,186 Speaker 2: It's the number one best treatment, I guess you would 795 00:42:27,206 --> 00:42:30,686 Speaker 2: call it, for alcoholism. The power of peers, you know, 796 00:42:30,816 --> 00:42:34,796 Speaker 2: we are social animals, as Aristotle said. And in some ways, 797 00:42:35,156 --> 00:42:37,156 Speaker 2: these are kind of obvious things like, oh, yeah, I'm 798 00:42:37,176 --> 00:42:39,636 Speaker 2: really influenced by my best friend's opinion on like who 799 00:42:39,716 --> 00:42:43,106 Speaker 2: I should marry. And in other ways that are more subtle, 800 00:42:43,166 --> 00:42:45,926 Speaker 2: you know, like everybody's going to management consulting and suddenly 801 00:42:45,946 --> 00:42:49,066 Speaker 2: I see myself applying for management consulting. And what I 802 00:42:49,086 --> 00:42:50,966 Speaker 2: would just like to add to this, because as we've 803 00:42:51,306 --> 00:42:54,976 Speaker 2: discussed many times, philosophers talk about the situation being powerful, 804 00:42:55,006 --> 00:42:56,296 Speaker 2: but being something you can't change. 805 00:42:57,146 --> 00:42:58,316 Speaker 1: You can change your peers. 806 00:42:58,706 --> 00:43:02,456 Speaker 2: I mean, every parent knows that kids change their peer 807 00:43:02,476 --> 00:43:05,716 Speaker 2: groups with sometimes astonishing frequency, like who you're hanging out with. 808 00:43:06,096 --> 00:43:09,076 Speaker 2: But for me, I think a big change in my 809 00:43:09,156 --> 00:43:12,726 Speaker 2: life has been to try to be around scientists who 810 00:43:12,926 --> 00:43:16,086 Speaker 2: I enjoy and who I really admire. When I was 811 00:43:16,306 --> 00:43:19,846 Speaker 2: first becoming an independent scientist after I had earned my Ph.D., 812 00:43:20,726 --> 00:43:24,046 Speaker 2: I was really DIYing all of my research. I was like, okay, well, 813 00:43:24,066 --> 00:43:26,866 Speaker 2: I had this idea and like try to do it. 814 00:43:26,866 --> 00:43:29,526 Speaker 2: And by the way, most of these things were not successful. 815 00:43:29,546 --> 00:43:32,446 Speaker 2: I'm like, nope, those results were not significant. And it's 816 00:43:32,546 --> 00:43:35,226 Speaker 2: only been really in the last half of my career 817 00:43:35,276 --> 00:43:37,626 Speaker 2: where I'm very deliberate about like, I never do a 818 00:43:37,666 --> 00:43:41,736 Speaker 2: study alone. I always look for the smartest, funnest people 819 00:43:42,136 --> 00:43:44,676 Speaker 2: to work with. And those people change me. And when 820 00:43:44,696 --> 00:43:47,976 Speaker 2: I'm around them, I'm different. And the last thing I'll 821 00:43:47,996 --> 00:43:49,416 Speaker 2: say about this is like, I've been hanging around these 822 00:43:49,456 --> 00:43:55,136 Speaker 2: economists and these economists are really incredibly organized. Like I 823 00:43:55,156 --> 00:43:57,136 Speaker 2: thought I was an organized human being, but I have 824 00:43:57,176 --> 00:44:00,276 Speaker 2: become like 50% more organized since hanging out with these. 825 00:44:00,356 --> 00:44:03,946 Speaker 2: There's a procedure for everything. There's like a file name. 826 00:44:03,986 --> 00:44:07,006 Speaker 2: There's a system for file names. Those economists are changing me. 827 00:44:07,266 --> 00:44:10,326 Speaker 2: So I think the power of peers is in a 828 00:44:10,386 --> 00:44:13,686 Speaker 2: way the positive side of peer pressure, right? And if 829 00:44:13,726 --> 00:44:17,606 Speaker 2: we think about it, as an opportunity to shape ourselves, 830 00:44:18,066 --> 00:44:21,206 Speaker 2: to be like the people that we're with by choosing 831 00:44:21,426 --> 00:44:23,746 Speaker 2: people that we admire. I think that to me is 832 00:44:23,786 --> 00:44:28,366 Speaker 2: a very profound and overlooked way to develop yourself. 833 00:44:29,406 --> 00:44:31,486 Speaker 1: And there's a couple different ways people can affect us, right? 834 00:44:31,586 --> 00:44:33,386 Speaker 1: One is that we just kind of soak up other 835 00:44:33,426 --> 00:44:36,356 Speaker 1: people's traits. We can use other people for accountability. You 836 00:44:36,456 --> 00:44:38,336 Speaker 1: probably don't want to be disorganized in front of all 837 00:44:38,376 --> 00:44:41,536 Speaker 1: these economist friends. They'll make fun of you. It'll be embarrassing. 838 00:44:42,116 --> 00:44:43,916 Speaker 1: But another thing that we do is that we learn 839 00:44:43,976 --> 00:44:46,416 Speaker 1: from other people. And this is the lovely work of 840 00:44:46,476 --> 00:44:48,436 Speaker 1: Joe Heinrich and his colleagues. Tell me about that. 841 00:44:48,896 --> 00:44:52,436 Speaker 2: So, Joe Henrich, the anthropologist at Harvard, you know his 842 00:44:52,476 --> 00:44:55,046 Speaker 2: work better than I do, but I have been really 843 00:44:55,126 --> 00:44:58,846 Speaker 2: persuaded by Joe Henrich and the idea that there is 844 00:44:58,966 --> 00:45:02,166 Speaker 2: no individual who can be smarter than the group. Joe Henrich, 845 00:45:02,246 --> 00:45:05,866 Speaker 2: as you know, has a very provocative theory of what 846 00:45:05,906 --> 00:45:10,946 Speaker 2: makes homo sapiens smart. the most dominant species on the planet. 847 00:45:11,386 --> 00:45:14,766 Speaker 2: And it's not that our brains are, what, 20% bigger? 848 00:45:14,826 --> 00:45:16,946 Speaker 1: You know the answers. I mean, how much bigger are 849 00:45:17,006 --> 00:45:19,876 Speaker 1: our brains than chimpanzees? Dude, don't ask me to do, like, 850 00:45:19,896 --> 00:45:22,496 Speaker 1: phylogenetics on the flesh. A little, though, right? I mean, 851 00:45:22,516 --> 00:45:24,516 Speaker 1: they are bigger. They're bigger. Definitely bigger. Definitely bigger. 852 00:45:24,536 --> 00:45:26,756 Speaker 2: But they're not 10 times as big. They're not twice 853 00:45:26,796 --> 00:45:29,336 Speaker 2: as big. So Joe Henrich asked the question. He was like, 854 00:45:29,416 --> 00:45:32,416 Speaker 2: all right, a chimpanzee cannot build a plane. A chimpanzee 855 00:45:32,436 --> 00:45:34,716 Speaker 2: hasn't figured out the Internet. No chimpanzee has ever written 856 00:45:34,736 --> 00:45:37,836 Speaker 2: a poem. They don't do things that we do, even 857 00:45:37,856 --> 00:45:39,236 Speaker 2: though they're just a little dumber. 858 00:45:39,256 --> 00:45:39,896 Speaker 1: Right. 859 00:45:39,976 --> 00:45:43,126 Speaker 2: Like what's going on? And I've been really persuaded by 860 00:45:43,336 --> 00:45:46,226 Speaker 2: his notion of the collective brain. What makes Homo sapiens 861 00:45:46,266 --> 00:45:48,786 Speaker 2: different is that we learn from each other. We learn 862 00:45:49,166 --> 00:45:52,086 Speaker 2: through this podcast. We learn from the books that we read. 863 00:45:52,626 --> 00:45:55,286 Speaker 2: read that the authors have long been dead. We learn 864 00:45:55,326 --> 00:45:58,086 Speaker 2: at dinner when somebody says, hey, something really interesting happened 865 00:45:58,106 --> 00:46:01,106 Speaker 2: to me. Chimpanzees do not learn from each other the 866 00:46:01,146 --> 00:46:04,166 Speaker 2: way people do. So if we can understand that, we 867 00:46:04,206 --> 00:46:07,346 Speaker 2: can sort of celebrate the idea that we do things collectively, 868 00:46:07,606 --> 00:46:10,446 Speaker 2: not individually. There is no individual who writes a book 869 00:46:10,626 --> 00:46:13,926 Speaker 2: entirely on their own. There is no pilot who can 870 00:46:14,426 --> 00:46:17,566 Speaker 2: totally get a plane from point A to point B 871 00:46:17,726 --> 00:46:18,226 Speaker 2: on their own. 872 00:46:18,286 --> 00:46:21,086 Speaker 1: So I think it's time to embrace the collective brain. 873 00:46:22,056 --> 00:46:23,556 Speaker 1: I want to go back to the story of Bob 874 00:46:23,576 --> 00:46:25,256 Speaker 1: Bowman because we had him on the podcast. We had 875 00:46:25,276 --> 00:46:27,756 Speaker 1: him on Happiness Lab a while back. So tell me 876 00:46:27,796 --> 00:46:29,676 Speaker 1: your story of meeting Bob Bowman and why were you 877 00:46:29,716 --> 00:46:32,096 Speaker 1: so interested in his approach to behavior change? 878 00:46:32,856 --> 00:46:35,216 Speaker 2: I stalked Bob Bowman. I even learned how to do 879 00:46:35,296 --> 00:46:38,426 Speaker 2: Instagram messaging just so I could, you know, connect with him. 880 00:46:38,866 --> 00:46:41,926 Speaker 2: I had no personal connection to him, but I wanted 881 00:46:41,966 --> 00:46:45,496 Speaker 2: to meet the greatest swim coach ever. I knew that 882 00:46:45,536 --> 00:46:48,676 Speaker 2: he had coached Michael Phelps and not only that he 883 00:46:48,696 --> 00:46:52,356 Speaker 2: had coached him when Michael was 11 years old, but 884 00:46:52,416 --> 00:46:55,956 Speaker 2: also all the way through his retirement at age 32. 885 00:46:55,956 --> 00:46:57,506 Speaker 1: I knew that Bob. 886 00:46:57,336 --> 00:47:00,526 Speaker 2: Bowman had coached many other Olympians, including Leon Marchand, who 887 00:47:00,566 --> 00:47:03,896 Speaker 2: was the most decorated Olympian. athlete in the Paris Games. 888 00:47:03,916 --> 00:47:06,536 Speaker 2: He won the most individual gold medals. The reason I 889 00:47:06,576 --> 00:47:09,016 Speaker 2: wanted to meet Bob is that I knew that a 890 00:47:09,196 --> 00:47:12,216 Speaker 2: world-class coach had to be a world-class mentor. And I 891 00:47:12,236 --> 00:47:15,046 Speaker 2: define a mentor as someone who is more experienced than 892 00:47:15,086 --> 00:47:18,726 Speaker 2: you are in some way and caring enough to help 893 00:47:18,766 --> 00:47:22,506 Speaker 2: you down the path. I read his book, 10 Golden 894 00:47:22,546 --> 00:47:25,546 Speaker 2: Rules for Success. And when I read it, I recognized 895 00:47:25,606 --> 00:47:27,666 Speaker 2: a lot of things that I had studied, you know, 896 00:47:27,686 --> 00:47:29,926 Speaker 2: a lot of elements of grit, but also there was 897 00:47:29,946 --> 00:47:33,016 Speaker 2: a very clear statement that his advice, if you want 898 00:47:33,036 --> 00:47:35,536 Speaker 2: to be great, is to find the people and places 899 00:47:35,876 --> 00:47:38,316 Speaker 2: that bring out your best. And I wanted to know 900 00:47:38,876 --> 00:47:42,946 Speaker 2: what it was that Bob thought about the importance of mentorship. 901 00:47:43,026 --> 00:47:44,186 Speaker 1: What was his experience? 902 00:47:44,686 --> 00:47:47,626 Speaker 2: And he said to me that Michael Phelps was obviously 903 00:47:48,346 --> 00:47:51,476 Speaker 2: as talented as they come. That was abundantly obvious from 904 00:47:51,496 --> 00:47:54,236 Speaker 2: the very first swim practice. It then became clear he 905 00:47:54,276 --> 00:47:56,926 Speaker 2: was as gritty as they come, right? As Bob is 906 00:47:57,046 --> 00:47:59,296 Speaker 2: quick to point out, Michael didn't miss a practice, I 907 00:47:59,316 --> 00:48:03,016 Speaker 2: think for like 10 consecutive years, and hardly missed any 908 00:48:03,076 --> 00:48:07,116 Speaker 2: during his entire career. I think the importance of a mentor, though, 909 00:48:07,316 --> 00:48:10,496 Speaker 2: is to say to Michael on the days where he 910 00:48:10,556 --> 00:48:12,996 Speaker 2: wasn't feeling it, that he was going to get in 911 00:48:13,036 --> 00:48:16,106 Speaker 2: the pool and do the drills and to have that 912 00:48:16,406 --> 00:48:19,246 Speaker 2: disciplined regimen that was going to bring out his best. 913 00:48:19,646 --> 00:48:21,706 Speaker 2: If you ask the question, like, if Michael had on 914 00:48:21,726 --> 00:48:24,396 Speaker 2: a clipboard all the things that Bob Bowman had was 915 00:48:24,436 --> 00:48:26,076 Speaker 2: telling him to do, like if it were coming to 916 00:48:26,096 --> 00:48:29,136 Speaker 2: him through ChatGPT, right? We'll do this today, do this 917 00:48:29,196 --> 00:48:32,166 Speaker 2: on Thursday, do this on Saturday. Could Michael have ever 918 00:48:32,226 --> 00:48:35,846 Speaker 2: done what he did? Absolutely not. I think all of 919 00:48:35,946 --> 00:48:40,786 Speaker 2: us can think back to our formative moments. Laurie, I 920 00:48:40,806 --> 00:48:44,186 Speaker 2: wouldn't even be a psychologist if it weren't for Marty Seligman. Like, 921 00:48:44,546 --> 00:48:45,446 Speaker 2: is Marty perfect? 922 00:48:45,846 --> 00:48:47,956 Speaker 1: Oh, hell no. Marty Seligman is not perfect. 923 00:48:48,606 --> 00:48:53,096 Speaker 2: But did Marty Seligman bring me into being as a psychologist? 924 00:48:53,636 --> 00:48:54,196 Speaker 1: Absolutely. 925 00:48:54,256 --> 00:48:57,396 Speaker 2: He shaped how I think he shaped how I prioritize 926 00:48:57,536 --> 00:49:01,796 Speaker 2: my time. The list goes on. Anders Ericsson, Walter Mischel. 927 00:49:02,256 --> 00:49:05,016 Speaker 2: And when I think about anything I've done, you know, 928 00:49:05,056 --> 00:49:07,816 Speaker 2: it really is that expression of standing on the shoulders 929 00:49:08,256 --> 00:49:08,786 Speaker 2: of giants. 930 00:49:09,066 --> 00:49:14,196 Speaker 1: You know, for me, my mentors have been everything. I 931 00:49:14,216 --> 00:49:16,376 Speaker 1: think this is something that people definitely don't think they 932 00:49:16,416 --> 00:49:19,016 Speaker 1: can change in the situation is like who they have 933 00:49:19,076 --> 00:49:21,586 Speaker 1: around them to be mentoring them. I mean, of course, 934 00:49:21,606 --> 00:49:23,486 Speaker 1: we know we can like hire a piano tutor or 935 00:49:23,526 --> 00:49:25,786 Speaker 1: something like that. But I think for just so many 936 00:49:25,866 --> 00:49:28,306 Speaker 1: subtle things, there are mentors around us all the time 937 00:49:28,346 --> 00:49:31,006 Speaker 1: that we're just not taking. advantage of this is something 938 00:49:31,026 --> 00:49:32,986 Speaker 1: I know you've talked about because you also talk about 939 00:49:33,026 --> 00:49:35,406 Speaker 1: a way that we can give back to our mentors 940 00:49:35,426 --> 00:49:37,916 Speaker 1: to kind of keep those relationships alive you've talked about 941 00:49:37,956 --> 00:49:40,126 Speaker 1: this act of being a mentor magnet what do you 942 00:49:40,146 --> 00:49:40,696 Speaker 1: mean there. 943 00:49:40,856 --> 00:49:43,736 Speaker 2: If there's one thing as a psychologist who has studied 944 00:49:43,796 --> 00:49:47,236 Speaker 2: mentorship that I might share with people is that you 945 00:49:47,256 --> 00:49:51,276 Speaker 2: should be more proactive in about attracting mentors into your 946 00:49:51,316 --> 00:49:54,256 Speaker 2: life and thanking the ones you already have. I think 947 00:49:54,296 --> 00:49:57,896 Speaker 2: sometimes people just assume it's chance and it's not. You know, 948 00:49:57,936 --> 00:50:01,426 Speaker 2: I've met people in my life younger than me typically, 949 00:50:01,886 --> 00:50:04,526 Speaker 2: and I just am drawn to them. I'm like, you know, 950 00:50:04,866 --> 00:50:07,326 Speaker 2: offering to help them when they didn't ask me for favors. 951 00:50:07,346 --> 00:50:09,526 Speaker 2: I'm like, you know, you should meet this person. 952 00:50:09,666 --> 00:50:11,576 Speaker 1: I'm going to be in L.A. on this date. Like 953 00:50:11,636 --> 00:50:14,836 Speaker 1: maybe we could have lunch together. And I have asked myself, like, 954 00:50:14,936 --> 00:50:16,776 Speaker 1: I'm a busy person. What am I doing? 955 00:50:16,796 --> 00:50:21,056 Speaker 2: And I'm very drawn to these people because they are grateful, 956 00:50:21,596 --> 00:50:27,106 Speaker 2: because they benefit from any advice or help I offer, 957 00:50:27,126 --> 00:50:30,126 Speaker 2: and because they are kind to other people. And I 958 00:50:30,166 --> 00:50:34,766 Speaker 2: think these features of a mentor magnet are all acquirable. 959 00:50:35,086 --> 00:50:37,946 Speaker 2: Like you can be prepared and you can be the 960 00:50:37,986 --> 00:50:39,906 Speaker 2: person who sends a thank you note and you can 961 00:50:40,386 --> 00:50:41,896 Speaker 2: ask like, oh, is there any way that I can 962 00:50:41,916 --> 00:50:44,496 Speaker 2: help you? Or is there any cause that you are 963 00:50:44,536 --> 00:50:47,216 Speaker 2: working on where, you know, my skills would be useful? 964 00:50:47,796 --> 00:50:51,316 Speaker 2: I think we can become mentor magnets. When we do, 965 00:50:51,416 --> 00:50:54,676 Speaker 2: we bring into our lives these like guardian angels. It's 966 00:50:54,696 --> 00:50:57,396 Speaker 2: a great source of joy to mentor someone. I mean, 967 00:50:57,556 --> 00:50:59,516 Speaker 2: I have my best days when I feel like I 968 00:50:59,556 --> 00:51:02,896 Speaker 2: have helped somebody younger than me do something a little differently, 969 00:51:03,066 --> 00:51:06,746 Speaker 2: think a little more expansively about their world or their decisions. 970 00:51:07,226 --> 00:51:10,126 Speaker 2: And one mentor said to me, you know, when you 971 00:51:10,166 --> 00:51:13,366 Speaker 2: look at somebody you're mentoring, you see who you were. 972 00:51:13,386 --> 00:51:16,066 Speaker 2: And when they look at you, they see who they 973 00:51:16,086 --> 00:51:18,756 Speaker 2: can be. And there's really nothing more beautiful than that. 974 00:51:20,006 --> 00:51:23,106 Speaker 2: And so that's pillar number three of situational agency. We 975 00:51:23,126 --> 00:51:25,316 Speaker 2: should be finding our mentors and we should be doing 976 00:51:25,396 --> 00:51:27,636 Speaker 2: our best to be a good mentor magnet. Now we 977 00:51:27,656 --> 00:51:29,996 Speaker 2: get to the final element of situational agency, which is 978 00:51:30,056 --> 00:51:31,996 Speaker 2: at the broadest level of our situation. 979 00:51:32,216 --> 00:51:35,116 Speaker 1: We need to choose our culture. There are lots of 980 00:51:35,156 --> 00:51:37,796 Speaker 1: different definitions of the word culture. As I'm sure you know, Angela, 981 00:51:37,856 --> 00:51:39,896 Speaker 1: what are you thinking of when you mean culture in 982 00:51:39,936 --> 00:51:44,346 Speaker 1: this broad sense? I think culture most succinctly is the 983 00:51:44,386 --> 00:51:47,426 Speaker 1: way we do things around here. I grew up in 984 00:51:47,446 --> 00:51:50,106 Speaker 1: Cherry Hill, New Jersey. Cherry Hill had a culture. 985 00:51:50,666 --> 00:51:53,886 Speaker 2: I'm at University of Pennsylvania at the Wharton School, and 986 00:51:53,926 --> 00:51:56,046 Speaker 2: in psychology, there's a culture there. 987 00:51:56,126 --> 00:51:58,626 Speaker 1: Business schools definitely have a culture. Yeah, exactly. 988 00:51:58,956 --> 00:52:01,796 Speaker 2: Business schools have a culture. My department has a culture. 989 00:52:02,296 --> 00:52:05,476 Speaker 2: My neighborhood has a culture. The block in which I live, 990 00:52:05,676 --> 00:52:08,876 Speaker 2: that's its own microculture. And it's different. And, you know, 991 00:52:08,976 --> 00:52:11,546 Speaker 2: New Haven has a culture. Boston has a culture. And 992 00:52:11,886 --> 00:52:14,916 Speaker 2: I just want to say to Anyone who thinks that 993 00:52:14,936 --> 00:52:19,626 Speaker 2: their culture is fixed, that's not true. You know, I 994 00:52:20,366 --> 00:52:22,106 Speaker 2: tell the story in the book. It's a true story. 995 00:52:22,266 --> 00:52:24,886 Speaker 2: And I don't even know this person very well. But 996 00:52:25,106 --> 00:52:30,566 Speaker 2: Johnny Maeda, who's a very famous design guru, was standing 997 00:52:30,746 --> 00:52:32,666 Speaker 2: in line in front of me. We were at a 998 00:52:32,746 --> 00:52:36,856 Speaker 2: graduation ceremony. And he and I were making small talk 999 00:52:36,916 --> 00:52:39,296 Speaker 2: about our lives. And I said to him in a 1000 00:52:39,356 --> 00:52:42,086 Speaker 2: moment of, you know, confession, I guess, that I wasn't 1001 00:52:42,106 --> 00:52:43,946 Speaker 2: really sure what I wanted to do. I think I 1002 00:52:44,006 --> 00:52:46,206 Speaker 2: had recently gotten tenure, so I knew I wasn't going 1003 00:52:46,226 --> 00:52:48,846 Speaker 2: to get fired. But I didn't know what to do next. 1004 00:52:48,906 --> 00:52:50,486 Speaker 2: And he said, why don't you move? 1005 00:52:51,746 --> 00:52:55,446 Speaker 1: And I didn't. I said, what? And then I immediately 1006 00:52:55,946 --> 00:52:57,906 Speaker 1: just ticked through all the reasons I couldn't move. 1007 00:52:57,966 --> 00:52:59,746 Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, my mother is older. You know, my 1008 00:52:59,786 --> 00:53:02,986 Speaker 2: father has Parkinson's. My mother-in-law lives here. You know, my 1009 00:53:03,026 --> 00:53:04,806 Speaker 2: husband's a real estate developer. It doesn't get any more 1010 00:53:04,846 --> 00:53:08,106 Speaker 2: local than that. You have to basically stay where you are. Like, 1011 00:53:08,146 --> 00:53:10,246 Speaker 2: I can't leave my university. My kids are in school. 1012 00:53:10,906 --> 00:53:14,366 Speaker 2: And he didn't say much more than, well, you should 1013 00:53:14,386 --> 00:53:18,106 Speaker 2: consider it. And it took me a few more months 1014 00:53:18,406 --> 00:53:21,156 Speaker 2: to think this through. But my husband and I did 1015 00:53:21,216 --> 00:53:23,136 Speaker 2: decide to move. Now, we didn't move to St. 1016 00:53:23,176 --> 00:53:23,556 Speaker 1: Louis. 1017 00:53:23,656 --> 00:53:27,776 Speaker 2: We just moved four miles from the suburbs of Philadelphia 1018 00:53:27,936 --> 00:53:30,596 Speaker 2: into the city. But four or five miles is a 1019 00:53:30,616 --> 00:53:34,796 Speaker 2: world away. So I think the changes that it afforded me, 1020 00:53:34,876 --> 00:53:37,356 Speaker 2: I ended up walking to work instead of driving to work. 1021 00:53:37,416 --> 00:53:39,736 Speaker 2: My kids ended up going to the Philadelphia public schools. 1022 00:53:39,796 --> 00:53:41,976 Speaker 2: That was a different culture, I will tell you. than 1023 00:53:42,006 --> 00:53:45,346 Speaker 2: the suburban schools that they had come from. Our neighborhood 1024 00:53:45,366 --> 00:53:48,406 Speaker 2: was a different place. The people that I would just 1025 00:53:48,486 --> 00:53:51,206 Speaker 2: meet in the course of a day were different because 1026 00:53:51,426 --> 00:53:56,316 Speaker 2: of my neighborhood. So we are so quick to tell 1027 00:53:56,976 --> 00:54:00,076 Speaker 2: ourselves the story that I can't change my job. I 1028 00:54:00,456 --> 00:54:04,276 Speaker 2: can't change where I live. I can't change the culture 1029 00:54:04,296 --> 00:54:07,876 Speaker 2: that is shaping me. I just think that's not true. 1030 00:54:08,346 --> 00:54:10,746 Speaker 2: I think even if you don't have a lot of 1031 00:54:10,886 --> 00:54:15,656 Speaker 2: money or a lot of latitude, there's almost always something 1032 00:54:15,716 --> 00:54:21,676 Speaker 2: you can do to navigate toward the culture, the way 1033 00:54:21,756 --> 00:54:24,486 Speaker 2: we do things that is the way you want to 1034 00:54:24,526 --> 00:54:27,546 Speaker 2: do things, too. I just love this one quote that 1035 00:54:27,586 --> 00:54:29,446 Speaker 2: you have in your book about this mistake we make. 1036 00:54:29,526 --> 00:54:31,886 Speaker 2: You know, we think of culture as where we're from, 1037 00:54:31,906 --> 00:54:35,296 Speaker 2: not where we can go. And that was just like 1038 00:54:35,356 --> 00:54:37,476 Speaker 2: mind blowing for me because it was like, oh, my gosh, 1039 00:54:37,676 --> 00:54:38,816 Speaker 2: I totally do this. 1040 00:54:39,036 --> 00:54:41,116 Speaker 1: Oh, well, that's where I'm from. I'm not thinking about, well, 1041 00:54:41,136 --> 00:54:43,146 Speaker 1: how can I shape the culture around me, whether that's 1042 00:54:43,186 --> 00:54:45,986 Speaker 1: my job or where I am? Or even just the microculture. 1043 00:54:46,006 --> 00:54:48,166 Speaker 1: I use this term in the book, microculture. What do 1044 00:54:48,206 --> 00:54:48,726 Speaker 1: you mean there? 1045 00:54:49,066 --> 00:54:51,706 Speaker 2: So it turns out that the culture that really matters 1046 00:54:51,796 --> 00:54:54,856 Speaker 2: is the culture that is right around you. So, for example, 1047 00:54:55,056 --> 00:54:57,956 Speaker 2: there are macrocultural trends that some of us don't like. 1048 00:54:58,016 --> 00:55:01,456 Speaker 2: You know, political polarization, the amount of time people are 1049 00:55:01,776 --> 00:55:04,536 Speaker 2: on screens, how much ultra processed food is consumed in 1050 00:55:04,556 --> 00:55:08,706 Speaker 2: the United States. But that matters less than your microculture, 1051 00:55:08,836 --> 00:55:12,076 Speaker 2: like how much ultra processed food is being eaten around 1052 00:55:12,156 --> 00:55:16,386 Speaker 2: you every day in your immediate proximity. And you have 1053 00:55:16,526 --> 00:55:20,826 Speaker 2: much more control over your microculture than you do over 1054 00:55:20,846 --> 00:55:24,226 Speaker 2: the macro cultural trends that, again, you may or may 1055 00:55:24,266 --> 00:55:26,766 Speaker 2: not like. And I think that's very empowering. I think 1056 00:55:26,786 --> 00:55:29,946 Speaker 2: that if you understand that and economists are quick to 1057 00:55:29,986 --> 00:55:33,616 Speaker 2: point out that if you change blocks sometimes, even within 1058 00:55:33,656 --> 00:55:36,936 Speaker 2: the same zip code, it really can be night and day. 1059 00:55:36,996 --> 00:55:40,076 Speaker 2: And therefore, there is more latitude if you have the 1060 00:55:40,476 --> 00:55:44,166 Speaker 2: courage to change. And I think, Laurie, we know from 1061 00:55:44,526 --> 00:55:49,356 Speaker 2: research on status quo bias that sometimes the obstacle is 1062 00:55:49,436 --> 00:55:54,116 Speaker 2: not financial. It's not logistical. It's psychological. We cling to 1063 00:55:54,136 --> 00:55:56,856 Speaker 2: the familiar even when we know change is good for us. 1064 00:55:58,276 --> 00:56:00,016 Speaker 2: And so I think this might be a message to 1065 00:56:00,096 --> 00:56:02,326 Speaker 2: end with, this idea that we cling to the familiar. 1066 00:56:02,346 --> 00:56:04,386 Speaker 2: In so many ways, our situation is the kind of 1067 00:56:04,406 --> 00:56:07,026 Speaker 2: thing that we can change, right? From like what's literally 1068 00:56:07,266 --> 00:56:10,006 Speaker 2: in arm's length right now to the people we're hanging 1069 00:56:10,106 --> 00:56:12,796 Speaker 2: out with, to the mentors we pick, to the culture 1070 00:56:12,836 --> 00:56:15,536 Speaker 2: that we're in. We can change all this stuff. And 1071 00:56:15,556 --> 00:56:19,116 Speaker 2: so how has this realization changed you? Have you stopped 1072 00:56:19,176 --> 00:56:21,356 Speaker 2: focusing on your own grit and switched to changing your 1073 00:56:21,376 --> 00:56:26,556 Speaker 2: situation more? I think that focusing on situation has, if anything, 1074 00:56:26,716 --> 00:56:29,096 Speaker 2: added to my grit, not diminished it. And I know 1075 00:56:29,176 --> 00:56:31,436 Speaker 2: it can seem like an either or, like either I'm 1076 00:56:31,456 --> 00:56:32,896 Speaker 2: going to work on my grit or I'm going to 1077 00:56:32,916 --> 00:56:36,226 Speaker 2: work on getting situated. But when you are situated, when 1078 00:56:36,246 --> 00:56:38,986 Speaker 2: you are with people and in places that bring out 1079 00:56:39,006 --> 00:56:42,446 Speaker 2: your best, you will find that you are in a 1080 00:56:42,466 --> 00:56:47,186 Speaker 2: very willing and spontaneous way, more passionate and more persevering. 1081 00:56:47,246 --> 00:56:49,806 Speaker 2: When I am working with colleagues who I just think 1082 00:56:49,966 --> 00:56:52,306 Speaker 2: are amazing and and have things to teach me, I 1083 00:56:52,806 --> 00:56:55,936 Speaker 2: want to bring my passion and perseverance to the projects 1084 00:56:55,996 --> 00:56:58,276 Speaker 2: that we work on. When I'm in a culture where 1085 00:56:58,316 --> 00:57:01,556 Speaker 2: the values are aligned with what I believe in, I 1086 00:57:01,836 --> 00:57:04,696 Speaker 2: am more motivated, not less motivated. So to me, it's 1087 00:57:04,756 --> 00:57:08,286 Speaker 2: not either you get gritty or you get situated. The 1088 00:57:08,906 --> 00:57:11,186 Speaker 2: ideal is that you get both. 1089 00:57:12,706 --> 00:57:14,906 Speaker 1: Well, Angela, thank you for being part of my situation 1090 00:57:14,966 --> 00:57:17,846 Speaker 1: that I am very grateful for. Lori, thank you for 1091 00:57:17,866 --> 00:57:20,556 Speaker 1: being part of my situation. You bring out my best. 1092 00:57:21,506 --> 00:57:23,486 Speaker 1: So there you have it, from the grit lady herself. 1093 00:57:24,026 --> 00:57:26,306 Speaker 1: It's time to stop worrying about what's wrong with you 1094 00:57:26,766 --> 00:57:30,386 Speaker 1: and start thinking about what's wrong with your situation. Rather 1095 00:57:30,406 --> 00:57:32,286 Speaker 1: than doing things the hard way, take a look at 1096 00:57:32,326 --> 00:57:35,546 Speaker 1: your physical space, your peers, your mentors, and your culture, 1097 00:57:36,086 --> 00:57:38,996 Speaker 1: and consider how adjusting the situations around you could make 1098 00:57:39,036 --> 00:57:40,996 Speaker 1: it a little easier for you to reach your goals 1099 00:57:41,516 --> 00:57:43,696 Speaker 1: so that you can become the person you want to be. 1100 00:57:44,656 --> 00:57:47,276 Speaker 1: Next week, we'll continue our Back to School series with 1101 00:57:47,336 --> 00:57:51,726 Speaker 1: neuroscientist and mindfulness expert Richie Davidson. He'll explain why your 1102 00:57:51,766 --> 00:57:54,566 Speaker 1: brain is changing every day, whether you realize it or not, 1103 00:57:55,006 --> 00:57:57,466 Speaker 1: and how just a few minutes of intentional practice can 1104 00:57:57,486 --> 00:58:00,286 Speaker 1: help shape it for the better. Five minutes a day 1105 00:58:00,476 --> 00:58:05,376 Speaker 1: actually produces real change. It produces change in our experience, 1106 00:58:05,956 --> 00:58:09,356 Speaker 1: and it even produces change in our biology. That's all 1107 00:58:09,416 --> 00:58:12,776 Speaker 1: next week on The Happiness Lab with me, Dr. Laurie Santos.