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Speaker 1: If you're a woman navigating life transitions like pregnancy, infertility, parenthood, menopause,

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Speaker 1: first month with the promo code Katie when you go

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Speaker 1: to talkspace dot com slash Katiecuric. Match with a licensed

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump created an unholy alliance with tech oligarchs and billionaires.

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Speaker 2: He said, you fund my campaign and facilitate my consolidation

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Speaker 2: of power, and I will pay you off with massive

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Speaker 2: tax breaks. Over the last ten months, he has destroyed

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Speaker 2: these life saving programs. He's gutted food assistance, He's passed

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Speaker 2: the largest cut to healthcare in American history, all to

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Speaker 2: create a piggybank that he can then raid to fund

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Speaker 2: just partially those tax breaks for billionaires.

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Speaker 1: I first met Representative Sarah McBride at the DNC in

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Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, when she became the first openly transperson to

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Speaker 1: take the stage at a political party's national convention. We

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Speaker 1: got to know each other a little bit better when

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Speaker 1: she came to a screening of a documentary I had

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Speaker 1: done a year later, called Gender Revolution, which examined our

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Speaker 1: changing notion of gender identity. Well since then, she has

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Speaker 1: served four years as a Delaware State Senator and now

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Speaker 1: is the first openly trans person in Congress. Sarah is

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Speaker 1: so smart and so kind, and I think she is

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Speaker 1: one of the rising stars of the Democratic Party. So

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Speaker 1: I am thrilled to have her here in our studio

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Speaker 1: for an extended conversation. Congresswoman McBride, thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for joining us.

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Speaker 2: Thank you. I am so excited to be here with you,

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Speaker 2: to see you once again. It has been too long.

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Speaker 1: It has been a long time, and as I told you,

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Speaker 1: I've texted you a few times. I was so afraid

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Speaker 1: that you were not into me. Anymore, or we're ghosting

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Speaker 1: me or something, and I'd never heard back from you,

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Speaker 1: so I was like, what happened to Sarah?

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Speaker 2: I can't believe I was missing Katie Kurrk's texts. I'm

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Speaker 2: so sorry. I am so sorry. I did not mean

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Speaker 2: to ghost Katie Kurk.

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Speaker 1: That's okay. I'm just glad this has finally happened. Sarah.

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Speaker 1: You have had quite the freshman year in Congress. Since January.

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Speaker 1: The Trump administration has kidnapped, attained, or deported American citizens,

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Speaker 1: unleashed the National Guard to American streets, attempted to end

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Speaker 1: birthright citizenship, gotten rid of hundreds of thousands of federal workers,

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Speaker 1: significantly decreased the budget for medical research, threatened and extorted

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Speaker 1: news organizations as well as colleges and universities, pardoned all

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Speaker 1: of those who participated in the January sixth insurrection, among others,

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Speaker 1: alienated some of our closest allies, put in place tariffs

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Speaker 1: that might be unconstitutional. Those are just a few things.

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Speaker 2: So I'm going to say, you're just scratching the surface

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Speaker 2: with that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the list goes on and on. Oh and I forgot.

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Speaker 1: He presided over the longest government shutdown in history. How

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Speaker 1: would you describe your first ten months at the Capitol.

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Speaker 2: Well, I will start by saying it is genuinely a

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Speaker 2: privilege to get to represent what I hope everyone knows

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Speaker 2: is objectively the greatest state in the history of the Union,

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Speaker 2: Delaware in Congress, and I am in all that I

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Speaker 2: have the privilege of being there. But I certainly wish

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Speaker 2: I had entered a very different Congress than the one

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Speaker 2: I have entered, a very different Washington than the one

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Speaker 2: I have entered, because the last ten months, which I

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Speaker 2: think for all of us, have felt like a decade,

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Speaker 2: I have had a front row seat to the chaos,

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Speaker 2: to the incompetence, and I think, more than anything else,

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Speaker 2: the cruelty of this administration. They have set out to implement,

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Speaker 2: page by page, bullet by bullet Project twenty twenty five,

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Speaker 2: to turn back the clock on our nation's progress, not

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Speaker 2: just fifty years, but one hundred years or more, devastating

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Speaker 2: the social safety net in this country, passing the largest

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Speaker 2: cut in American history, not just the largest cut to

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Speaker 2: medicated in an American history, the largest cut to healthcare

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Speaker 2: in American history. They are firing thousands of qualified federal workers,

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Speaker 2: dismantling agencies, dismantling programs that are saving lives here and abroad,

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Speaker 2: all in an effort to prove that government can't work

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Speaker 2: by making it not work, and ultimately, all in an

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Speaker 2: effort to consolidate power for this president, who without question

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Speaker 2: is a want to be authoritarian. Through all of that,

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Speaker 2: whether it's the abridgment of due process, the attack on

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Speaker 2: immigrant communities, the attack on vulnerable communities across this country,

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Speaker 2: this administration and Republicans have engaged in a strategy that

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Speaker 2: is as old as politics itself, and it is the tired, weak,

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Speaker 2: insecure strategy of authoritarian wannabes, and that is to divide

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Speaker 2: a country and to misdirect the public's attention by telling people,

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Speaker 2: as they see their healthcare ripped away, as they see

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Speaker 2: costs rising, as they see their future slipping away, that

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Speaker 2: the people who are to blame for that are not

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Speaker 2: the Republican politicians passing those policies in Washington, but rather

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Speaker 2: immigrant communities or trans young people, or anyone who is misunderstood.

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Speaker 2: And it's had dangerous consequences for so many people across

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Speaker 2: this country. But as scary as it is to see

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Speaker 2: right now. I think for me, the last ten months

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Speaker 2: have only reinforced my resolve because I truly believe everything

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Speaker 2: is on the line in this moment, and that means

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Speaker 2: we have to fight hard, but we have to fight smart.

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Speaker 2: It means we have to build the kind of diverse

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Speaker 2: coalition we need to win and deliver, and it means

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Speaker 2: that we have to ultimately figure out how to make

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Speaker 2: this government work, because I believe that what we're seeing

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Speaker 2: right now, the rise of authoritarianism, the rise of trump Ism,

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Speaker 2: it is the byproduct of a crisis of hope this

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Speaker 2: country has that individually or collectively, we can't meet the

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Speaker 2: scope and the scale of the challenges that we face.

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Speaker 2: That fosters anger people give up on government seeing and

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Speaker 2: respecting them and ultimately delivering for them, and that anger

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Speaker 2: feeds trump Ism, and also it leads to people viewing

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Speaker 2: politics as a place for entertainment rather than progress. And

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Speaker 2: I think that's one of the reasons why I see

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Speaker 2: so many professional provocateurs in Congress right now, essentially on

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Speaker 2: the other side of the aisle, because when people give

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Speaker 2: up on government being a force for good, then we

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Speaker 2: see it as a force for entertainment, and that only

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Speaker 2: furthers that crisis of hope we have as a country.

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Speaker 1: You know, Delaware is a blue state, the Great State

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Speaker 1: of Delaware, Sarah, But forty one percent of voters in

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Speaker 1: your state did vote for President Trump in the last election.

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Speaker 1: And I'm curious. You talk to your constituents all the time,

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Speaker 1: how are they responding to the chaos of these initial

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Speaker 1: ten months of the second Trump administration.

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Speaker 2: I have the privilege of representing the entirety of Delaware,

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Speaker 2: which means I represent urban, suburban, and rural areas. I

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Speaker 2: represent blue areas, purple areas, and red areas. And unlike

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Speaker 2: most people who just see political discussion happening on the

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Speaker 2: news or on social media, I get to go out

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Speaker 2: and talk to people across the political divide about politics,

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Speaker 2: and I actually think it's one of the blessings of

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Speaker 2: my job. What I hear very frequently from people is

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Speaker 2: that they're scared. For some it's they're scared about the

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Speaker 2: future of our democracy. They're scared for their dignity and

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Speaker 2: their freedoms. But more than anything else, I hear people

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Speaker 2: being scared about their future, Scared about whether they're going

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Speaker 2: to be able to afford healthcare, Scared about whether they're

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Speaker 2: going to be able to put food on the table

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Speaker 2: and send their kids to good schools and pursue the

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Speaker 2: American dream and buy a home. And I think from

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Speaker 2: the folks who I talk to who have voted for

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Speaker 2: this president, who aren't necessarily dedicated Trumpers, but people who

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Speaker 2: I would describe as Trump tolerant, the biggest thing I

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Speaker 2: hear from them is that they feel like this president

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Speaker 2: has broken the core promise he made in the twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty four election, which was to focus on making life

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Speaker 2: more affordable in this country, and they feel like he

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Speaker 2: has not only shirked that priority, he's actually made the

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Speaker 2: cost of living crisis worse with those tariffs that you mentioned,

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Speaker 2: with cuts to healthcare that are going to increase premiums

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Speaker 2: one hundred two hundred three hundred.

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Speaker 1: Percent for people.

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Speaker 2: They're frustrated that he's betrayed his promise to them. I

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Speaker 2: will say one of the reasons why it is such

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Speaker 2: a blessing for me in this moment to have a

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Speaker 2: job where I go out and I talk to people

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Speaker 2: across the political divide about politics, because it is so

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Speaker 2: easy in this moment to feel like politics itself, which

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Speaker 2: is at the end of the day of the art

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Speaker 2: of persuasion, that it's pointless because when you go on

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Speaker 2: social media and when you turn on the TV, you

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Speaker 2: see just the loudest voices, you see just the most

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Speaker 2: extreme perspectives, which is what most people see. It's easy

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Speaker 2: to go our divide. Our disagreements are so significant that

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Speaker 2: we can't have a national dialogue. There's no way to

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Speaker 2: hear one another, there's no way to find common ground,

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Speaker 2: there's no way to convince other people of my position

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Speaker 2: because we're just so far apart. And when you actually

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Speaker 2: get out of those spaces and into the real world

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Speaker 2: for those conversations, you realize, yeah, we have disagreements, and

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Speaker 2: yes there are pretty profound disagreements, but most people are

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Speaker 2: actually good people. Most people are decent people, and we

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Speaker 2: have actually a lot more in common than what the

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Speaker 2: algorithms make it seem.

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Speaker 1: Or reinforce right, well reinforce for that matter.

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Speaker 2: For as toxic as this moment in our politics is,

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Speaker 2: being able to interact with people who think differently than

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Speaker 2: I do has actually not only reinstilled my beliefs and

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Speaker 2: my values, because I've been having to defend those values

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Speaker 2: in those beliefs in those policies in those conversations. But

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Speaker 2: it's actually made me more hopeful because it has allowed

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Speaker 2: me to see that politics as a form of change making,

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Speaker 2: which at the end of the day requires us to

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Speaker 2: change one another's minds, that is still possible.

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Speaker 1: You did a very thoughtful podcast with Ezra Client, which

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Speaker 1: I thought was so well done, and I thought it

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Speaker 1: was interesting, Sarah, you said out in the real world,

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Speaker 1: people aren't catastrophizing what's happening to our democracy as much

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Speaker 1: as they cared about these kitchen table issues, you know,

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Speaker 1: about being able to participate in the American dream. But

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Speaker 1: I'm curious, do you find your constituents, even some of

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Speaker 1: those who supported President Trump, concerned about the erosion and

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Speaker 1: the downright destruction of certain institutions and norms, or do

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Speaker 1: they kind of put it off as that's just Trump

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Speaker 1: being Trump.

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Speaker 2: I think there are people who I talk to who

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Speaker 2: are outraged and fearful about the democratic backsliding that this

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Speaker 2: country is undeniably experiencing right now. I'm certainly outraged by

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Speaker 2: it and believe it is not a very real threat,

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Speaker 2: but a very real problem in this moment. It's not abstract,

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Speaker 2: it's not a hypothetical. It is happening, and I think

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Speaker 2: you know since that podcast, it's only gotten more obvious

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Speaker 2: and more extreme, and therefore more and more people are

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Speaker 2: rightfully bringing it up to me, and not just the

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Speaker 2: people who were bringing it up to me eight months

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Speaker 2: ago and a year ago, or ten years ago, for

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Speaker 2: that matter, And so I'm hearing about it more and more,

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Speaker 2: without question. That doesn't mean that we should make it

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Speaker 2: the central point of all of our messaging, because if

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Speaker 2: you truly believe that democracy is on the line in

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Speaker 2: this moment, which I do, then the most important thing

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Speaker 2: for us right now is to build a coalition that

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Speaker 2: can help to protect democracy. And for the folks who

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Speaker 2: are outraged by what we're seeing right now, they see it,

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Speaker 2: they understand the assignment. They're already fighting hard. If we

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Speaker 2: are going to get the kind of numbers we need

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Speaker 2: not just to win the House, but hopefully to win

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Speaker 2: the Senate and eventually to rewin the presidency, which is

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Speaker 2: the only way to stop the democratic backsliding that we're

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Speaker 2: seeing right now, then we're going to have to convince

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Speaker 2: those Trump tolerant voters that just as much as we

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Speaker 2: will defend democracy, we will also so focus as much

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Speaker 2: on the fact that they need affordable housing, affordable childcare,

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Speaker 2: affordable healthcare, affordable groceries. I think when you're scared, it's

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Speaker 2: very easy to fall into a place where you want

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Speaker 2: to see everyone fight in ways that feel viscerally comforting

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Speaker 2: to you. That's an understandable instinct, and some of politics

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Speaker 2: is preaching to the choir. But we also have to

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Speaker 2: have the courage to grow our congregation in this moment,

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Speaker 2: and that means continuing a focus on the economic realities

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Speaker 2: that people are facing. And I will say, we can't

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Speaker 2: separate those things from the democratic backsliding that we're experiencing.

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Speaker 2: How So, in the last election, Donald Trump created an

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Speaker 2: unholy alliance with tech oligarchs and billionaires. He said, you

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Speaker 2: fund my campaign and facilitate my consolidation of power, and

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Speaker 2: I will pay you off with massive tax breaks. Over

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Speaker 2: the last ten months, he has destroyed these life saving programs.

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Speaker 2: He's gutted food assistance, he's past the largest cut to

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Speaker 2: healthcare in American history, all to create a piggy bank

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Speaker 2: that he can then raid to fund just partially those

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Speaker 2: tax breaks for billionaires. And so, when we protect healthcare,

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Speaker 2: for instance, when we protect snap. We're not only helping

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Speaker 2: to save lives for the people who rely on those programs,

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Speaker 2: but we're also taking away the piggybank that Donald Trump

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Speaker 2: is using to fund his consolidation of power and his

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Speaker 2: authoritarian project that is facilitated by these billionaires in tech oligarchs.

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Speaker 2: The second reason is the first speech that I gave

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Speaker 2: on the floor of the House of Representatives. I thought

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Speaker 2: long and hard about what I wanted to talk about,

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Speaker 2: and this was in February, so this was early in

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Speaker 2: the Trump administration, and I decided that I wanted to

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Speaker 2: focus in and touch on the themes of Franklin Roseult's

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Speaker 2: nineteen forty four State of the Union address, which your

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Speaker 2: casual observer would not be aware of what he said

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Speaker 2: in that speech, but it's one of my favorite speeches

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Speaker 2: because it helps to reinforce how connected economic opportunity is

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Speaker 2: with our freedom and our democracy. Because in that speech,

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Speaker 2: which he delivered in the well of that same chamber

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Speaker 2: that I delivered my first speech, he delivered it as

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Speaker 2: war raged on two continents, as Americans were dying in

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Speaker 2: order to defeat tyranny. He talked about how necessitous people

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Speaker 2: are not free people when you're hungry and you're out

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Speaker 2: of a job. That those are the things that dictatorships

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Speaker 2: are made of. When people are hungry, when they're out

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Speaker 2: of a job, when they're angry, when they're frustrated or

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Speaker 2: hopeless and hopeless, right, it leads to two things. That

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Speaker 2: leads either to people hearing that strong man who says

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Speaker 2: I alone can fix it and finding hope in that person,

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Speaker 2: or because they're hopeless, they give up and opt out

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Speaker 2: of the system entirely. When you don't have enough housing

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Speaker 2: or healthcare to go around, when there's not enough food

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Speaker 2: to go around, and you've got that strong man who

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Speaker 2: can then dole it out, it increases their power. It

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Speaker 2: allows him to reward those who are sycophants and punish

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Speaker 2: those who he believes are his enemies. And you see

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Speaker 2: it over the last ten months. They'll call these programs

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Speaker 2: democrat programs. And listen, if you want to call medicaid

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Speaker 2: and Medicare and snap a democratic program, find by me.

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Speaker 2: But what they're saying in that is that these are

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Speaker 2: programs that democrats made and that democrats rely on, and

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Speaker 2: so we're going to punish these people. We're going to

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Speaker 2: punish LGBTQ people because we believe that there are political enemies,

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Speaker 2: because we perceive that the people who rely on those

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Speaker 2: programs or the people who are in those communities are

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Speaker 2: part of our faction that are standing up to us,

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Speaker 2: and we want to punish them. And so when there's

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Speaker 2: scarcity in the economy, it can increase that strong man's

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Speaker 2: power in doling out what little healthcare, what little housing,

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Speaker 2: what few jobs remain.

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Speaker 1: So these two issues have to be dealt with simultaneously.

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Speaker 1: You have to have a too pronged approach understanding how

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Speaker 1: interwoven they are. Yes, I'm just curious. As a new

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Speaker 1: member of Congress, you walk around and, as you said,

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Speaker 1: the world presented on social media is often not reality.

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Speaker 1: When you interact with your Republican colleagues, do you ever

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Speaker 1: find areas of common ground? Is it civil? And how

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Speaker 1: do you understand the complete capitulation of the Republican Party

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Speaker 1: to Donald Trump. I'm just curious what you've picked up

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Speaker 1: actually been in Congress.

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Speaker 2: It's not hyperbole to say that the modern Republican Party

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Speaker 2: in Congress is a cult of personality. I mean, that's

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Speaker 2: one of the things that's like really jarring to see

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Speaker 2: up close, you go on the floor, and you know,

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Speaker 2: sometimes you can have these poster boards that might have

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Speaker 2: graphs or pictures of your constituents, pictures of a senior

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Speaker 2: highlighting your commitment to Medicare or Social Security. The Republicans

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Speaker 2: will put up these signs behind themselves on the floor

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Speaker 2: of the House, and it'll be like Donald Trump's face

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Speaker 2: gazing off into the distance with fireworks exploding behind him.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's like bizarre, pitiful behavior. And I mean

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Speaker 2: that's a hallmark of authoritarianism. And that's what they've fostered,

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Speaker 2: a cult of personality. And I think a lot of

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Speaker 2: the Republicans in the House are Republican politicians who, unlike

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Speaker 2: Trump one, don't predate Trump. They rose in Republican politics.

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Speaker 2: They were elected to federal office during the Trump dominance

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Speaker 2: of the Republican Party. And so I think, unlike Trump one,

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Speaker 2: there are a lot more who are true believers, that

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Speaker 2: genuinely believe in Donald Trump. There are others who I

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Speaker 2: think still make the calculus that you know, better for

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Speaker 2: me to be here and to push back quietly or

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Speaker 2: behind the scenes than to stand up and lose my

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Speaker 2: primary and have someone who's a true believer here. I

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Speaker 2: think that's a big all those shrinking portion of the

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Speaker 2: Republican caucus. We see cowardice by some, and we see

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Speaker 2: genuine belief in this Trump project by many others in

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Speaker 2: a growing faction. The closest thing that I can compare

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Speaker 2: Congress to is a reality.

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Speaker 1: Show survivor of real hothouse more like Real Housewives.

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Speaker 2: And this is not true for everyone, but it's true

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Speaker 2: for some, and certainly the ones that dominate the news.

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Speaker 2: And that is when you are on Real Housewives, the

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Speaker 2: way to get airtime is to pick a fight, it's

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Speaker 2: to throw wine in someone's face, and that behavior gets

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Speaker 2: you attention in this fierce attention economy, But for an

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Speaker 2: institution like Congress, for a workplace, it's completely corrosive and destructive.

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Speaker 2: And for some of these folks, I used to think

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Speaker 2: when I got there, their behavior was in pursuit of

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Speaker 2: attention for powers sake, right, Attention is power, Attention is influence.

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Speaker 2: Attention increases your capacity to have your policies be heard.

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Speaker 2: But I've come to realize that for many of these

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Speaker 2: professional provocateurs in Congress, it's that they are genuinely just

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Speaker 2: addicted to attention. We know that attention on social media

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Speaker 2: is addictive. Right, when you post a picture on social

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Speaker 2: media and it gets a decent number of likes, it's

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Speaker 2: a dopamine hit. But for your typical person posting a

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Speaker 2: picture online, that's a cigarette puff. But when you go

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Speaker 2: viral nationally, that is a hit like the most addictive drug.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's instantly addictive just off of one high.

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Speaker 1: I was gonna say that's like opioids. Yes.

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Speaker 2: And one of the most freaquing things I hear about

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Speaker 2: these particularly destructive people in Congress is they were so

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Speaker 2: normal when they got here, But then what happens is

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Speaker 2: they do something innocently well intended that goes viral, and

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Speaker 2: then they get hooked, and as is the case with

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Speaker 2: almost every other addiction, they will start to engage in

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Speaker 2: both self destructive behaviors, but also they will engage in

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Speaker 2: behaviors in search of that high, regardless of the collateral

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Speaker 2: damage for other people too. Part of my job, as

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Speaker 2: someone who's been on the receiving end of people trying

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Speaker 2: to pursue that attention high is to not be an

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Speaker 2: effective vessel for their high.

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Speaker 1: How do you do that.

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Speaker 2: By not taking the bait, by not giving them the

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Speaker 2: responses that they are seeking in that moment when they're

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Speaker 2: trying to pick a fight with me, because in reality TV,

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Speaker 2: how do you get not just a little bit of airtime,

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Speaker 2: but a season long story gets to have a feud

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Speaker 2: with someone, But that takes two to tango. I'm not

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Speaker 2: going to throw wine back in their face. I'm just

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Speaker 2: going to ignore them. That preserves my effectiveness for my constituents.

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Speaker 2: I also think it helps to present the public with

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Speaker 2: a very clear contrast between who the bullies are and

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Speaker 2: who the bullied is. But I also think that it

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Speaker 2: removes some of the incentive for these people to continue

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Speaker 2: to come after me, because they're not getting the high

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Speaker 2: as easily as they would otherwise get it, and they're

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Speaker 2: not getting the same kind of high because I'm not

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Speaker 2: taking the bait, and therefore they're not getting quite as

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Speaker 2: much attention.

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Speaker 1: And the attention isn't sustained. It could be a blip,

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Speaker 1: but it's not a steady flow.

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Speaker 2: Exactly, which gives them a bigger high. And I will

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Speaker 2: say that approach has actually also resulted in a number

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Speaker 2: of Republicans not only coming up to me and apologizing

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Speaker 2: for the behavior of other Republicans or implicitly doing so

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Speaker 2: by just being overly welcoming or more aggressively welcoming. But

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Speaker 2: some have said, let's figure out opportunities to work together

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Speaker 2: to show that not everyone's like that. And I'm proud

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Speaker 2: that I've introduced more bipartisan legislation than any other freshmen.

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Speaker 2: That legislation's not the sort of big, controversial, headline grabbing legislation,

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Speaker 2: but it's important legislations. Consumer protections for people who are

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Speaker 2: in debt against these predatory credit repair organizations that charge

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Speaker 2: large upfront fees and provide no service. These are important

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Speaker 2: bills outside of some of the perverse incentives in politics,

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Speaker 2: where you can not only work in a bipartisan way,

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Speaker 2: but actually build relationships and trusts that maybe help you

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Speaker 2: across the aisle navigate some of the foreigny or more controversial,

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Speaker 2: more headline grabing issues too.

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Speaker 1: So do you think in a perverse way the cruelty

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Speaker 1: exhibited by she who shall not be named Nancy Mace

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Speaker 1: in a way helped you because it made some people,

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Speaker 1: in their effort to show they're not that person, reach

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Speaker 1: out to you and want to work with you.

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Speaker 2: I think what has come my way and my strategy

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Speaker 2: and deal with it has increased my effectiveness. Yes, And

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Speaker 2: all I can say to those who've done it is

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Speaker 2: I hope they get the support and the love that

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Speaker 2: they so clearly desire, and I hope they find the

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Speaker 2: healing that they so clearly need.

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Speaker 1: Hi. Everyone, it's Katie Couric. You know I'm always on

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Speaker 1: the go between running my media company, hosting my podcast,

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Speaker 1: and of course covering the news. And I know that

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Speaker 1: to keep doing what I love, I need to start

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Speaker 1: caring for what gets me there, my feet. That's why

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Speaker 1: Visit goodfeet dot com to learn more, find the nearest store,

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Speaker 1: or book your own free personalized fitting. Let's talk about

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Speaker 1: the latest news on Capitol Hill. Donald Trump just reopened

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Speaker 1: the government. After eight Democratic senators got together with Republicans

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Speaker 1: and Angus King, an independent. They said, you know, we're

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Speaker 1: not going to get anywhere on healthcare. We're not going

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Speaker 1: to get anywhere on extending the Affordable Care Act subsidies

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Speaker 1: with the government that shut down. Meanwhile, we're causing considerable

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Speaker 1: pain to a lot of people by stopping the SNAP benefits,

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Speaker 1: et cetera. And we got to get back to work.

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Speaker 1: And many progressives were outraged, like Bernie Sanders, he called

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Speaker 1: it a disaster. And I know you voted against it,

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Speaker 1: this negotiation to reopen the government. Can you talk about

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Speaker 1: why and how you felt about what some are terming

435
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 1: a capitulation and of are saying a necessary step to

436
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:03,280
Speaker 1: get back to business.

437
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,840
Speaker 2: The risk to SNAP was a choice by the administration.

438
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:10,160
Speaker 2: They have been able to find money for a whole

439
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,359
Speaker 2: host of pet projects for this president. There was still

440
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 2: money in the SNAP contingency funds that they could have used.

441
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 2: So the disruption that happened or was potentially happening to

442
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 2: SNAP was a choice by the administration. But to your point,

443
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 2: very real harm.

444
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:27,639
Speaker 1: I was going to say, whoever's fault it was? People

445
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:28,920
Speaker 1: were suffering, right.

446
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:33,639
Speaker 2: And inevitably, even if the administration wasn't making all of

447
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,639
Speaker 2: the choices it was making to disrupt food assistants and

448
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 2: other kinds of proactively cruel decisions to make matters worse

449
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 2: to play chicken no matter what. A shutdown presents real

450
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:48,159
Speaker 2: pain for people. People go without paychecks. Programs that constituents

451
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,359
Speaker 2: of my small businesses in my state rely on were

452
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 2: either ground to a halt or operating less efficiently during

453
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:57,919
Speaker 2: the shutdown, and so there's real harm. And I think

454
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 2: no one wants a shutdown. We have a responsibility in

455
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 2: this moment to do all we can to both reopen

456
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 2: government and to have addressed the expiration of the Affordable

457
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 2: Care Act tax credits. I have heard from far too

458
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:17,159
Speaker 2: many constituents, tens of thousands of constituents of mine, that

459
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 2: are seeing their healthcare premiums increase one hundred two hundred

460
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,639
Speaker 2: three hundred percent, and I could not in good conscience

461
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:26,359
Speaker 2: say to them that I'm going to accept this false

462
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 2: choice that Republicans had presented, which is that we could

463
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:33,120
Speaker 2: either reopen government or solve the health care crisis. We

464
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 2: can do both, and we should do both. Obviously, the

465
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:39,680
Speaker 2: Republicans were committed to not doing both.

466
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:43,400
Speaker 1: Do you think they could have been brought to the table, Sarah.

467
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 2: I think that it would have been worth seeing how

468
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:51,680
Speaker 2: the dust settled for a little bit longer. After the

469
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:57,200
Speaker 2: elections in New Jersey and Virginia as people were still

470
00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:59,880
Speaker 2: just starting to go on to healthcare dot CoV during

471
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:06,639
Speaker 2: open enrollment and finding these incredibly high premium hikes. I

472
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 2: think it would have been worth seeing if those events

473
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:14,199
Speaker 2: indeed would change the Republican negotiating position, if enough pressure

474
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 2: had come to bear. Because the President had already said

475
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:22,920
Speaker 2: we lost the election this year because of the shutdown,

476
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 2: you had Republicans speaking out about the problem with the ACA.

477
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:29,359
Speaker 2: I think it would have been worth for a little

478
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:33,880
Speaker 2: bit longer seeing if that reality would have changed anything.

479
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:37,920
Speaker 2: Because the President was saying, abolish the filibuster. I think

480
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 2: it would have been worth when he was realizing that

481
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:43,399
Speaker 2: that was not a potential path forward with Republicans in

482
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,920
Speaker 2: the Senate, to see whether he would have ultimately done

483
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 2: what he's done throughout his career, which is to throw

484
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 2: his Republican colleagues under the bus, because ultimately he wants

485
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 2: to get what he wants, and that is, in this case,

486
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 2: to get back on firm or footing because he was

487
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:02,040
Speaker 2: losing the shutdown fight. I'm not going to sit here

488
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 2: and criticize other people's decisions and how they voted. I

489
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 2: voted the way I did because obviously I disagree with them,

490
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 2: but I also understand that these are really fraught decisions

491
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 2: to make, and I think we do ourselves and our

492
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,640
Speaker 2: democracy a disservice when we try to pretend that every

493
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:26,160
Speaker 2: single decision is so morally clear, so obviously black and white,

494
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 2: that anyone who disagrees with us is evil. That's just

495
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 2: not the kind of politics that I employ. And so

496
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 2: I can understand why some people would come to a

497
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 2: different conclusion than the one that I did. I felt

498
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 2: strongly and I voted no because of it. But I

499
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:43,680
Speaker 2: think what's clear now is we've got to just keep

500
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 2: up the fight. The American people now understand after the

501
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 2: last several weeks that it's Republican's fault that healthcare premiums

502
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 2: are skyrocketing, and we're going to continue to bring that

503
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 2: message to voters next week, next month, next year, all

504
00:28:58,040 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 2: the way through the next selection, and then, god willing,

505
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 2: if we have a majority, do all we can to

506
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 2: actually bring down healthcare costs.

507
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 1: Is that what you're hearing from your constituents, because I

508
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 1: know in Delaware more than sixteen thousand people will lose

509
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 1: their healthcare subsidies, and about five thousand could lose their

510
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 1: medical coverage altogethers that sound about right.

511
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 2: I've seen estimates of even more Delawareans seeing skyrocketing premiums,

512
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 2: and that does not even include all of the Delawareans

513
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 2: who will lose their coverage under the Medicaid cuts that

514
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 2: are on the horizon in a year.

515
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 1: So what are you hearing from them about getting back

516
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 1: to business and ending the government shutdown?

517
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 2: I mean, I think there's a lot of frustration from

518
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 2: my constituents about the votes as they've transpired in the

519
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 2: Senate and the House. They feel like some people should

520
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 2: have held out longer in defense of their healthcare. And

521
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 2: my message to them is I see them, I hear them.

522
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 2: I've voted against the deal, and I'm going to keep

523
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 2: fighting for the principles that we've been fighting for, not

524
00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 2: just over the last several weeks, but for my entire

525
00:29:59,160 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 2: political career.

526
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 1: John Thune promised that this was going to be discussed

527
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 1: as part of the negotiations. Angus King told me he

528
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 1: thought John Thune was trustworthy. Speaker Johnson seems less inclined

529
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 1: as last time I checked. So I guess the question is,

530
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 1: did the Democrats get anything out of these negotiations? And

531
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 1: was the government shut down ultimately all for nought?

532
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 2: Well, I don't think it was for nought. I think

533
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 2: a couple of things. One, there are appropriations bills that

534
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:33,480
Speaker 2: have passed that are good bills that are going to

535
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 2: buttress snap in the face of disruption and chaos and government.

536
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 2: There are really critical investments that are included in those

537
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 2: appropriations bills. I do not believe those bills were worth

538
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 2: voting in favor of the deal, but there are some

539
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 2: things that came out of that deal. What's very clear

540
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:59,240
Speaker 2: to me is that in September people were not talking

541
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 2: about the ACA TI credits. In September, people couldn't have

542
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:10,719
Speaker 2: told you who was to blame for the pending spike

543
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 2: in premiums. I think people now know when they go

544
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 2: on healthcare dot gov and see their premiums increase two

545
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 2: hundred percent, it's because Republicans were so committed to cutting

546
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 2: healthcare that they were willing to shut down the government

547
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 2: for five weeks.

548
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 1: But don't you think that Republicans will see, gosh, this

549
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 1: is such a vulnerability for us. We need to do

550
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 1: something about this, and they may be pushed to negotiate

551
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 1: and to extend some of these benefits.

552
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 2: I think that the only thing that Congressional Republicans are

553
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 2: more loyal to than Donald Trump is cutting healthcare for

554
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 2: the American people. I don't think that they care. I

555
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 2: don't think that they want to fix this. John Thune

556
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 2: may very well bring a bill to the floor of

557
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 2: the Senate because that's literally the extent of the deal

558
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 2: when it comes to the ACA tax credits. Whether it

559
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 2: passes or not, I don't know. Probably doesn't, but even

560
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 2: if it does, I have no faith that Mike Johnson

561
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 2: will bring something to the floor. We're going to do

562
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 2: a discharge petition to try to bring something to the

563
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 2: floor and have our Republicans have to answer for not

564
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 2: signing it on the record. Right, Yes, but Mike Johnson

565
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:19,719
Speaker 2: is perpetually having to appease the furthest right faction of

566
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 2: his caucus, and they do not want to extend the

567
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 2: ACA tax credits. And he has been in their pocket

568
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 2: since he became speaker. He has been in their pocket

569
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 2: for sure the last ten months. And I don't think

570
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 2: they're going to let him bring that bill to the floor.

571
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 2: I don't think they're going to let him negotiate with us.

572
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 2: And what is clear as Mike Johnson is only doing

573
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 2: Donald Trump's bidding and the bidding of the far right

574
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 2: people in his caucus. He is not a strong leader.

575
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 2: He's just reflective of those two stakeholders that he needs

576
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 2: to maintain his power, and one of those stakeholders will

577
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 2: prevent him from bringing an ACAA tax credit build to

578
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 2: the floor.

579
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 1: Mike Johnson did finally swear in Arizona's newest representative, Adelita Grihalva,

580
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 1: and she immediately signed on to the bipartisan petition to

581
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 1: force a vote to release the Epstein files, with the

582
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 1: vote planned for next week. Gosh, the whole Epstein thing

583
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 1: so much happening. Whether you're talking about Glaine Maxwell getting

584
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:29,800
Speaker 1: preferential treatment at this minimum security prison, to Michael Wolf

585
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 1: a journalist interacting with Jeffrey Epstein, other names appearing in

586
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 1: some of these emails. What happens now? Can you just

587
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 1: kind of make sense of this circus for us?

588
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, I will just say I don't

589
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 2: know the extent of Donald Trump's involvement with Jeffrey Epstein.

590
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 2: I don't know to what degree there is any involvement

591
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 2: or knowledge that he had throughout the most prolific child

592
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 2: sex trafficking ring in our country's history. But boy is

593
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 2: he acting suspicious behave behavior bringing Lauren Bobert into the

594
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 2: situation room to try to berate her into taking her

595
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:11,360
Speaker 2: name off of the discharge petition, the stonewalling at every turn,

596
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 2: the desperation to avoid a vote on releasing the Epstein files,

597
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:19,880
Speaker 2: to the point that the Speaker of the House shut

598
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 2: the house down for fifty some days. Part of it

599
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:27,399
Speaker 2: was because he wanted to pass the continuing resolution, send

600
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 2: it over the Senate, and leave town to jam the Senate,

601
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,360
Speaker 2: But genuinely his motivation for shutting down the House was

602
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 2: as much that as it was preventing the swearing in

603
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:41,319
Speaker 2: of now Representative at a lad A. Grihalva, knowing that

604
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 2: she would be the two hundred and eighteenth signature on

605
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 2: this discharge petition. But their intimidation didn't work, and we've

606
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:49,799
Speaker 2: hit that two hundred and eighteen mark. I was on

607
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:53,320
Speaker 2: the floor with Representative Grihalva when she signed that petition.

608
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 2: We're going to have a vote next week. I think

609
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:57,560
Speaker 2: we're going to see a ton of Republican defectors. It'll

610
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 2: be interesting to see what happens then with an overwhelming

611
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 2: vote in the House as it goes over to the Senate.

612
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 2: It is incredibly alarming the extent to which Republican leaders

613
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 2: will go to cover up and to prevent the kind

614
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 2: of transparency that the American people, Democrats, independence and Republicans

615
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:17,920
Speaker 2: alike want to see. With the Epstein files. What do

616
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:20,479
Speaker 2: you think the fallout is going to be? It must

617
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 2: be very hard to predict, but what will it actually do?

618
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 2: I know there's a big subset of Donald Trump supporters,

619
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:30,840
Speaker 2: people who are part of the MAGA movement, who feel

620
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 2: very strongly about these files and about the involvement of

621
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:40,280
Speaker 2: a president with a pedophile ring basically right. There are others,

622
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 2: I think, maybe who won't be as agitated by what

623
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 2: might be in these files. It may be premature, but

624
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 2: how do you see this all shaking out? I think

625
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:54,799
Speaker 2: it is premature to know for sure, but I think

626
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:59,239
Speaker 2: what is clear is that this whole sequence of events

627
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:04,440
Speaker 2: with the Epstein files is one more example of Donald

628
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 2: Trump and Republican politicians breaking their promises, saying one thing

629
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 2: ahead of the election and doing something entirely different once

630
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 2: they have power. And I think that that is a

631
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,799
Speaker 2: theme for this president and for this administration, and for

632
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 2: Republicans in Congress. They said they were going to lower prices.

633
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:22,240
Speaker 2: They aren't. They said that they weren't going to cut Medicaid.

634
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 2: They did. They said that they weren't going to touch Medicare.

635
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:27,800
Speaker 2: They did. They said that they would release the files.

636
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:30,720
Speaker 2: They're trying not to. And I think that that's probably

637
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 2: the biggest takeaway. Regardless of what's in the files at

638
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 2: the end of the day, regardless of what we get

639
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 2: when and if they're released in greater volume, regardless of

640
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,719
Speaker 2: all of that, it reinforces the reality that this is

641
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 2: an administration of broken promises.

642
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 1: You and I met Gosh almost a decade ago, and

643
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:55,360
Speaker 1: it was at a time when great strides were being

644
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 1: made culturally. I think for the LGBTQ community, gay marriage

645
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 1: pass in twenty fifteen, there seemed to be the beginning

646
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 1: of a greater understanding of trans people. But now you

647
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:10,440
Speaker 1: don't need me to tell you this. There has been

648
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 1: such a backlash, particularly against trans Americans. In Trump's inauguration speech,

649
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 1: he declared that there were only two genders. He's attempted

650
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,880
Speaker 1: to cut funding for schools that teach about gender ideology.

651
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 1: He banned trans athletes from competing in women's sports. He

652
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 1: banned gender affirming care for trans kids, signed an executive

653
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 1: order banning trans troops serving in the military. I've thought

654
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 1: about you a lot as this has been happening in

655
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 1: Ergo why I texted you and you never texted me back.

656
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 1: But why do you think this backlash happened? Do you

657
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:53,279
Speaker 1: believe looking back that the pendulums may be swung too far?

658
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:56,719
Speaker 1: How do you account for it? I don't think the

659
00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:01,360
Speaker 1: pendulum swung too far. I think, more than anything else,

660
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:04,279
Speaker 1: the reason why this has happened is because there was

661
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:08,880
Speaker 1: a well funded, well coordinated effort to fear monger and

662
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:14,839
Speaker 1: scapegoat around a vulnerable community. Trans people were just gaining visibility.

663
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 1: Trans people were at the start of mainstream political influence.

664
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:24,320
Speaker 1: La Verne Cox was on the cover of Time magazine.

665
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:26,799
Speaker 2: On the cover of Time, Katie Kuric was doing a

666
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 2: great documentary, and that put a target on our back

667
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:36,560
Speaker 2: because we were making progress, right, but that progress had

668
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:42,120
Speaker 2: not yet been matched by a level of public understanding

669
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:46,759
Speaker 2: that would inoculate us to the effectiveness of the politics

670
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:50,239
Speaker 2: of backlash. And when you have that reality right, you

671
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:55,760
Speaker 2: have a community of rising equality, of rising progress still

672
00:38:56,239 --> 00:39:00,319
Speaker 2: shaky ground that that progress is built on, which is

673
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:02,520
Speaker 2: not the community's fault. It's just sort of the reality

674
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 2: of new progress. Right It's always most fragile at the start,

675
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:10,760
Speaker 2: and then that is met most explicitly by a well funded,

676
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 2: well coordinated right wing effort to demonize, fear monger and

677
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:21,319
Speaker 2: scapegoat that community. It's had toxic consequences, dangerous consequences. It

678
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 2: is a reminder that progress is not linear. It's often

679
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:29,840
Speaker 2: two steps forward and one step back. It is a

680
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:34,359
Speaker 2: frightening time in this country to be trans. The policies

681
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:38,680
Speaker 2: will have real consequences for real human beings. And the

682
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:43,800
Speaker 2: coarseness and meanness in our politics alone on trans issues

683
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 2: is about as dehumanizing as I've seen in modern politics.

684
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:54,840
Speaker 2: And we can't give up our capacity to change people's minds,

685
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 2: to rebuild and to strengthen public support for the dignity

686
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 2: of all people, including trans people. That means hard, painful,

687
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 2: often unfair conversations. It means meeting people where they are.

688
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:15,279
Speaker 2: It means welcoming in in perfect allies for a conversation

689
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:19,239
Speaker 2: that allow them to gain greater perfection. And that's not

690
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 2: going to feel great. But I am not willing to

691
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 2: give up my power and my voice to bring about change.

692
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:28,840
Speaker 2: And I think that we have to recognize that so

693
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:33,120
Speaker 2: much of our power as a LGBTQ community has been

694
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:35,279
Speaker 2: the power of our proximity. When we are present and

695
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 2: we are willing to be in often difficult conversations with

696
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 2: people who are not yet where we want them to

697
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 2: be in their journey of understanding. But because throughout the

698
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 2: last several decades we've been willing to be proximate and

699
00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:51,320
Speaker 2: engage in those conversations, we have been able to build

700
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:56,399
Speaker 2: greater understanding, particularly for gay folks. Greater understanding that has

701
00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 2: made not only the progress possible, but the progress then

702
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:01,320
Speaker 2: more permanent.

703
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 1: It's this well financed and deliberate anti trans campaign couple

704
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 1: with ignorance, honestly, that made it so potent and so effective.

705
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:14,919
Speaker 2: Well, and that's what I mean, that sort of lack

706
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:16,759
Speaker 2: of understanding.

707
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 1: Right, So that leads me to talk to you about

708
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:23,319
Speaker 1: how we increase understanding. I thought it was interesting that

709
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:27,960
Speaker 1: with Ezra Kleine you talked about people understand sexual orientation

710
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 1: better than gender identity, because with sexual orientation, everybody sort

711
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 1: of loves and luss and they can relate to that

712
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:39,200
Speaker 1: and sort of understand. Okay, I kind of get that.

713
00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 1: With gender identity, it's much harder for people who don't

714
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:46,919
Speaker 1: have that to relate to. It. Aren't trends who haven't

715
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 1: been transit in the closet right right? And so how

716
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:57,080
Speaker 1: do we do a better job of reversing this demonization

717
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:01,880
Speaker 1: and this lack of understanding when it comes to trans people?

718
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:06,480
Speaker 1: For me, doing that documentary was extremely helpful and hopefully

719
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:08,839
Speaker 1: helpful to other people who kind of went on this

720
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:10,840
Speaker 1: journey with me. And I know you and I talked

721
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 1: back in the day about the reason why the documentary

722
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:19,239
Speaker 1: was effective and persuasive was I was the avatar for

723
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:23,160
Speaker 1: the ignorant person or the uneducated person, and through my

724
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:29,600
Speaker 1: journey of discovery, I became more knowledgeable and therefore more

725
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 1: understanding and compassionate. And how do we help people get there?

726
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:38,399
Speaker 1: Right now? We're at a deficit right when it comes

727
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 1: to understanding, and I would love to be an ally

728
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 1: and help with that, But how do we do it?

729
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 1: Because it's so hard right now?

730
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:48,759
Speaker 2: There are a number of things we have to do.

731
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:51,800
Speaker 2: We have to be willing. Not everyone. I'm not asking

732
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 2: everyone to do this, but there has to be a

733
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:57,799
Speaker 2: continued effort around this trans one oh one right of

734
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:01,279
Speaker 2: people sharing their stories and what it felt like for me.

735
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:04,040
Speaker 2: For instance, when I was still in the closet, it

736
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:08,600
Speaker 2: felt like a constant feeling of homesickness, just this unwavering

737
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:10,719
Speaker 2: ache in the pit of my stomach that would only

738
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:13,280
Speaker 2: go away when I could be seen and affirmed as myself.

739
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 2: And it was a homesickness that only grew with age.

740
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:19,759
Speaker 2: The older I got, and the more fulfilled I got

741
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:23,319
Speaker 2: in my professional life, in my academic career, all of

742
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:26,799
Speaker 2: that only reinforced the fact that I was watching my

743
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 2: one life pass by someone I knew I wasn't And

744
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:31,799
Speaker 2: I still know how hard it is to understand, well,

745
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:35,319
Speaker 2: how do you know you're this when that's not what

746
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 2: you were perceived to be born as? And I can't

747
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 2: explain everything, but I do think that your documentary does

748
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 2: a really good job of explaining the fact that we

749
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:47,799
Speaker 2: might not be able to understand everything. And look, I

750
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:49,799
Speaker 2: don't know what it feels like to be depressed, but

751
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:52,480
Speaker 2: I know that that's a real phenomenon for people. And

752
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 2: I don't have to be able to understand what it

753
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:57,120
Speaker 2: feels like to be depressed to understand that that is

754
00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 2: a real thing, and that people who are depressed are

755
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:03,359
Speaker 2: worthy of support and care and love so that they

756
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:06,239
Speaker 2: can live their best lives. I think one of the

757
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:09,520
Speaker 2: things that your documentary does so powerfully is, yes, it

758
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:11,839
Speaker 2: tells the story and maybe allows some people to enter

759
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:14,800
Speaker 2: into that experience of being trans sort of viscerally a

760
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:17,279
Speaker 2: little bit more, but it also allows people to understand that, look,

761
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:20,640
Speaker 2: trans people are a reality of human diversity, and regardless

762
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:24,319
Speaker 2: of what you think about gender in this abstract, academic,

763
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:28,360
Speaker 2: intellectual sense, you've got people who are real people. We

764
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 2: have to decide are we going to treat them with

765
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:33,960
Speaker 2: dignity and society? Are we going to create space for

766
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:37,600
Speaker 2: them to live in society fully and freely with happiness,

767
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:39,399
Speaker 2: so that at the end of their lives they don't

768
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:41,880
Speaker 2: look back at their life with regret, so they can

769
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:44,759
Speaker 2: get to the end of their lives having lived their

770
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:48,160
Speaker 2: life to the fullest, which is all anyone wants. And

771
00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:51,440
Speaker 2: so if trans people are real, which they are, then

772
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:53,839
Speaker 2: the question for all of us is then how do

773
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:57,239
Speaker 2: we treat people? And I think if you can get there,

774
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:00,360
Speaker 2: you can get most people into a solid pla of

775
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 2: broad support. They might not always agree with every single policy,

776
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:07,080
Speaker 2: but they'll be there with good will and good intentions

777
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:10,920
Speaker 2: and recognize the fundamental humanity of the community that's being discussed.

778
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 2: And that gets me to the next thing that I

779
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:15,840
Speaker 2: do think is important, which is on issues of gender identity.

780
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:18,640
Speaker 2: I think across our politics we have just lost this

781
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 2: capacity to have challenging conversations, to have painful conversations, to

782
00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:30,919
Speaker 2: differentiate between people who are committed in opposition to your

783
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:34,360
Speaker 2: dignity and people who are entering a conversation with goodwill

784
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:37,759
Speaker 2: and good intentions and don't understand. We have to be

785
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 2: able to make a distinction between those two types of people,

786
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:43,239
Speaker 2: and I think we've lost that distinction, and it has

787
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:46,880
Speaker 2: resulted in us too often treating anyone who's not with

788
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:49,600
Speaker 2: us one hundred percent as therefore an opposition to us

789
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:50,360
Speaker 2: one hundred percent.

790
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:53,400
Speaker 1: Kind of a purity test that you talk about that,

791
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:57,960
Speaker 1: I think progressives sometimes fall victim too, that if you

792
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 1: say anything that is slightly off a specific agenda, then

793
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:04,720
Speaker 1: you're evil.

794
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:07,880
Speaker 2: I think in our politics we don't grapple with the

795
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 2: fact that people don't know what they don't know.

796
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 1: If you're a woman navigating life transitions like pregnancy, infertility, parenthood, menopause,

797
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:25,840
Speaker 1: or caring for aging parents. Connecting with a licensed therapist

798
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:29,160
Speaker 1: is a great way to stay centered and find support.

799
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:32,600
Speaker 1: A therapist can help you navigate the hormonal shifts and

800
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:37,759
Speaker 1: life chapters that come standard with being female. Talkspace therapists

801
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:40,839
Speaker 1: are here to listen and help you process, gain insights,

802
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:46,480
Speaker 1: and develop coping strategies for whatever you're experiencing. Talkspace Virtual

803
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:49,840
Speaker 1: Therapy is covered by many insurance plans, and most insured

804
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:55,000
Speaker 1: members pay a fifteen dollars copay, often less. No insurance,

805
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Speaker 1: no problem. Now get eighty five dollars off of your

806
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Speaker 1: first month with the promo code Katie when you go

807
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:05,799
Speaker 1: to talkspace dot com slash Katiecuric. Match with a licensed

808
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:20,720
Speaker 1: therapist today at talkspace dot com slash Katiecuric. You also

809
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:22,920
Speaker 1: use the word grace a lot, which I think is

810
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:28,200
Speaker 1: so appropriate, which is to me, compassion for someone's lack

811
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 1: of understanding.

812
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 2: Well, and I think also not only compassion for someone's

813
00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 2: lack of understanding, but just this recognition that one of

814
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:38,960
Speaker 2: the reasons why I am a Democrat, one of the

815
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:42,319
Speaker 2: reasons why you know, my starting place on policy is

816
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 2: from a more liberal or progressive perspective. Is because I

817
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:48,879
Speaker 2: believe in the dignity of every human being. I believe

818
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:51,160
Speaker 2: that people are whole people. I do not believe that

819
00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:55,239
Speaker 2: people are just their worst action, or just their worst thought,

820
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:58,800
Speaker 2: or just their worst word. And for me, that principle

821
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:02,640
Speaker 2: that every person has inherent dignity, that every person is

822
00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:05,160
Speaker 2: worthy of being treated with dignity, and that no one

823
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:08,240
Speaker 2: is their worst action. And that doesn't mean there shouldn't

824
00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:11,759
Speaker 2: be accountability. It doesn't mean that people shouldn't express how

825
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:15,239
Speaker 2: someone's action makes them feel. It doesn't mean that when

826
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:19,319
Speaker 2: people are doubling down on cruelty and meanness that we

827
00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:23,840
Speaker 2: should just well, okay, I'm going to ignore that. It means, though,

828
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:28,759
Speaker 2: starting from that basic place of dignity, creating space through

829
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:31,719
Speaker 2: that grace for people to grow. I think that's the

830
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:33,880
Speaker 2: only way we move forward. And again, it doesn't always

831
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:37,399
Speaker 2: feel great. But I'm in this work because I want

832
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:40,360
Speaker 2: to make progress. I want to change people's hearts and minds.

833
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:42,839
Speaker 2: I want to change public opinion on all of the

834
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:45,799
Speaker 2: issues that I am passionate about, and the only way

835
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:47,960
Speaker 2: to do that is to be in conversation with people

836
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:51,680
Speaker 2: and to start from a place of mutual respect and dignity.

837
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:54,719
Speaker 2: And again, if someone's not showing me respect, that doesn't

838
00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:56,359
Speaker 2: mean I have to stay in the conversation with them.

839
00:48:56,719 --> 00:48:59,440
Speaker 2: But I'm going to give people a chance. You know,

840
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:03,120
Speaker 2: this is a moment for us to decide. We've talked

841
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 2: a lot about this authoritarian project, to decide whether we

842
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 2: genuinely believe in democracy, not as a talking point, not

843
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:12,600
Speaker 2: as an abstraction, not only when it's going right for us,

844
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:17,440
Speaker 2: whether we genuinely believe it. Because democracy can only persist

845
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:21,239
Speaker 2: if we maintain our faith in other people's capacity to

846
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:26,040
Speaker 2: change through nonviolent, peaceful political discourse.

847
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:28,680
Speaker 1: And in this day and age, it's so hard to

848
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:31,000
Speaker 1: do it because so many and I know you've talked

849
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:33,799
Speaker 1: about this, Sarah, and I couldn't agree more. So much

850
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:37,960
Speaker 1: of our political discourse air quotes, is being done online.

851
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:41,000
Speaker 1: People write things to me they would never say to

852
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:41,480
Speaker 1: my face.

853
00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:44,200
Speaker 2: Coirs, colleagues of mine write things to me that they

854
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:46,960
Speaker 2: objectively do not say to my face.

855
00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:50,000
Speaker 1: And so we have to create spaces for that, which

856
00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:51,160
Speaker 1: is really hard to do.

857
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:53,840
Speaker 2: I think it is hard, and I know it asks

858
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 2: a lot more of unimpacted community to enter into that

859
00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:02,840
Speaker 2: conversation than it does as for someone whose position I

860
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:07,120
Speaker 2: might find harmful or offensive but just holds it casually.

861
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:09,239
Speaker 2: It is asking a lot more of me.

862
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:12,640
Speaker 1: It reminds me of when I did that documentary. When

863
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:15,399
Speaker 1: I would interview a couple of the trans folks who

864
00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:19,200
Speaker 1: I featured, they would say, it's not my job to

865
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:24,440
Speaker 1: educate people about my gender identity. No, this is why

866
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:28,839
Speaker 1: they created Google in essence, and I always thought, yes,

867
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:31,719
Speaker 1: I understand, that is a huge burden to have to

868
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:35,640
Speaker 1: lead with that in every conversation, or in too many conversations.

869
00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:39,520
Speaker 1: Is asking a lot. On the other hand, I thought, gosh,

870
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:42,320
Speaker 1: is this in some ways a missed opportunity.

871
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:44,759
Speaker 2: You know? One of the things I actually disagreed with

872
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:47,000
Speaker 2: Harvey Milk about was that everyone needed to come out,

873
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:50,400
Speaker 2: that everyone had this responsibility to come out everywhere because

874
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:52,080
Speaker 2: I was the only way we're going to create change,

875
00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:53,920
Speaker 2: and I thought that that was an unfair burden. I

876
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:57,279
Speaker 2: still think that's an unfair burden to place on an

877
00:50:57,320 --> 00:51:00,799
Speaker 2: already vulnerable and marginalized community. People have to make the

878
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:04,080
Speaker 2: best decisions for themselves, and if they feel comfortable sharing

879
00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:06,080
Speaker 2: who they are and sharing the wholeness of who they

880
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:08,799
Speaker 2: are with other people wonderful. For me, It's been a

881
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:13,040
Speaker 2: liberating experience. I don't think everyone in the community has

882
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:15,920
Speaker 2: to bear that responsibility, but for those who are willing

883
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:17,960
Speaker 2: to go in those spaces, for those who are willing

884
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:22,880
Speaker 2: to effectively meet people where they are, in those painful, unfair,

885
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:27,400
Speaker 2: difficult conversations, we have to create space for those people

886
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:30,920
Speaker 2: to do it. Meeting people where they are is not

887
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:34,319
Speaker 2: selling out. It's what this work is and it's how

888
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:38,440
Speaker 2: we build progress. It reminds me of what doctor Oz said.

889
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:42,279
Speaker 2: I don't often quote doctor Oz, especially these days, but

890
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:45,279
Speaker 2: I went on a show to talk about my documentary

891
00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:47,640
Speaker 2: and he did say something that I thought was very

892
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 2: profound in its simplicity, which was, it's hard to hate

893
00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:56,040
Speaker 2: up close. Yes, And I so believe that. I wanted

894
00:51:56,080 --> 00:51:59,080
Speaker 2: to ask you about schools because I feel like a

895
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:03,120
Speaker 2: lot of the stirm and drang around trans issues are

896
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:07,400
Speaker 2: really centered at schools. And we read that forty seven

897
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:10,719
Speaker 2: percent of Americans, according to Pew, think it should be

898
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:14,480
Speaker 2: illegal for public school districts to teach about gender identity

899
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:18,200
Speaker 2: and elementary schools. So I guess the question that I've

900
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:22,880
Speaker 2: struggled with how do you create an inclusive environment for

901
00:52:23,040 --> 00:52:29,040
Speaker 2: all kids without some parents worrying that it's too much,

902
00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:32,160
Speaker 2: too soon, or it's a bridge too far. Well, I

903
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:36,240
Speaker 2: always believe that we should have age appropriate curriculum regardless

904
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:38,680
Speaker 2: of what the topic is. Regardless of what the subject is,

905
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:42,000
Speaker 2: one belief that I have is that no one is

906
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:45,440
Speaker 2: too young to learn to be kind. This is a big, complicated,

907
00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:50,120
Speaker 2: diverse world, and growing up is already hard enough, and

908
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:55,480
Speaker 2: growing up different is particularly hard in this day and age.

909
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:59,239
Speaker 2: Regardless of what identity we're talking about, regardless of what

910
00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:01,759
Speaker 2: community we're talking talking about. At the end of the day,

911
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:06,799
Speaker 2: at a minimum, we should just guarantee that people understand

912
00:53:07,480 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 2: that the diversity of our society makes us beautiful, and

913
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:13,680
Speaker 2: that treating people with kindness and respect, regardless of what

914
00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:17,600
Speaker 2: that difference is, everyone should start from a place of

915
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:22,080
Speaker 2: kindness and respect. And I don't think that anyone is

916
00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:26,399
Speaker 2: too young to learn that basic principle. And I would

917
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:30,040
Speaker 2: hope that, regardless of where you fall on particular issues

918
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:34,360
Speaker 2: on LGBTQ rights, that most people could agree with that

919
00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:35,360
Speaker 2: basic principle.

920
00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:40,480
Speaker 1: The anti trans rhetoric in this recent presidential campaign and

921
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:45,960
Speaker 1: in the Virginia gubernatorial race. I'm curious how effective you

922
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:50,840
Speaker 1: think this is and what the Democrats can do to

923
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 1: inoculate themselves from being kind of pigeonholed into these transpositions

924
00:53:58,239 --> 00:54:01,759
Speaker 1: that voters don't seem to really care about, but that

925
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:06,360
Speaker 1: are used to gin up this sort of visceral antagonism

926
00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:09,360
Speaker 1: against certain candidates. What is the answer.

927
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:13,239
Speaker 2: I think part of it is we as a party

928
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:16,480
Speaker 2: have to have a bold economic agenda. The ad that

929
00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:20,719
Speaker 2: came out against Harris in twenty twenty four one, it

930
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:23,319
Speaker 2: was like this hodgepodge of all of the right wing

931
00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:26,720
Speaker 2: greatest hits. It was trans immigrant people who are incarcerated

932
00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:30,800
Speaker 2: all in one. But the line that I think reinforced

933
00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:34,319
Speaker 2: for some voters a disconnect that they had with our

934
00:54:34,360 --> 00:54:38,080
Speaker 2: party was they didn't feel like we were focused on

935
00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:40,040
Speaker 2: broad economic issues.

936
00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:43,200
Speaker 1: You had your priorities screwed up, is what they thought.

937
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:45,680
Speaker 2: I think some voters have felt that way, and I

938
00:54:45,719 --> 00:54:48,080
Speaker 2: think that is in part a byproduct of the fact

939
00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:51,560
Speaker 2: that we haven't had a clear enough and bold enough

940
00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:55,480
Speaker 2: economic agenda. When we've had power, we have not delivered

941
00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:57,160
Speaker 2: it enough, and when we have been running, we have

942
00:54:57,320 --> 00:54:59,879
Speaker 2: not been clear and focused enough on it.

943
00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:01,040
Speaker 1: Now.

944
00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:04,239
Speaker 2: The reality in the last selection in twenty twenty four,

945
00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:06,960
Speaker 2: I should say, and in twenty twenty five, is that

946
00:55:06,960 --> 00:55:09,560
Speaker 2: the party that is actually obsessed with cultural war issues,

947
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:12,719
Speaker 2: the party that is spending money and perpetually talking about

948
00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:15,959
Speaker 2: trans issues, is actually the Republican Party. When some earl

949
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:18,319
Speaker 2: seers and Virginia spent fifty four percent of her ad

950
00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:21,320
Speaker 2: budget on trans ads, and I think the public is

951
00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:23,200
Speaker 2: starting to wake up to that fact that it's not

952
00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:26,480
Speaker 2: the Democratic Party that is hyper obsessed with talking about

953
00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:29,480
Speaker 2: trans people, it's the Republican Party that is hyper obsessed.

954
00:55:30,080 --> 00:55:33,160
Speaker 2: And I think in Virginia you saw that very clearly,

955
00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:38,200
Speaker 2: and I think Abigail Spanburger pursued that case really effectively.

956
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:41,840
Speaker 2: I also think Abigail ran a campaign that was focused

957
00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:45,520
Speaker 2: on affordability. The contrast of this candidate being out there

958
00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:49,520
Speaker 2: talking about affordability with a laser focus on it, and

959
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:55,040
Speaker 2: when some earl sears hyper fixated on bathrooms and trans

960
00:55:55,080 --> 00:56:01,040
Speaker 2: athletes really reinforced that disconnect. I thought Abigail and Mikey

961
00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:05,080
Speaker 2: in New Jersey really demonstrated that our party can be

962
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:08,520
Speaker 2: principled and pragmatic all at the same time. Neither of

963
00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:11,960
Speaker 2: them through trans people under the bus. Neither of them

964
00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:15,920
Speaker 2: endorsed blanket policies that treat every trans person the same

965
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:19,120
Speaker 2: in a discriminatory fashion. Both of them held true to

966
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:22,719
Speaker 2: their values, their principles, and their policies, and they met

967
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:25,960
Speaker 2: voters where they are. They did not shune in shame.

968
00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:31,920
Speaker 2: They extended grace. They recognized that some people have understandable

969
00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:36,799
Speaker 2: concerns or desires for nuance, that rules should be made

970
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:38,680
Speaker 2: in the context of sports and the places that are

971
00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:41,520
Speaker 2: best able to make those rules, or individual athletic associations

972
00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:44,399
Speaker 2: that understand their sports the best and can make these

973
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:49,120
Speaker 2: rules free of political interference, like we've seen with four

974
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:51,640
Speaker 2: hundred and thirty five members of the House of Representatives

975
00:56:51,680 --> 00:56:54,560
Speaker 2: believing that it's their job to micromanage third grade soccer.

976
00:56:55,120 --> 00:56:58,920
Speaker 2: That was effective, and they were principled and pragmatic. The

977
00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:02,080
Speaker 2: elections in Virginia and New Jersey reinforced that it's a

978
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:05,360
Speaker 2: false choice that Democrats can win when we're true to

979
00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:09,520
Speaker 2: ourselves and also engage with voters with respect and understanding.

980
00:57:10,120 --> 00:57:12,759
Speaker 1: Do you believe that should be the guiding principles for

981
00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:18,480
Speaker 1: the mid terms? Is affordability? The new it's the economy stupid.

982
00:57:18,880 --> 00:57:22,200
Speaker 2: Yes. All of the candidates that ran who won in

983
00:57:22,240 --> 00:57:25,600
Speaker 2: the twenty twenty five election, whether it was Mikey, cheryls,

984
00:57:25,640 --> 00:57:30,200
Speaker 2: Zoron Mamdani, or Abigail Spanberger, all three of them employed

985
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:35,320
Speaker 2: three kinds of politics incredibly effectively. One is the politics

986
00:57:35,360 --> 00:57:38,720
Speaker 2: of affordability, that hyper focus on making the American dream

987
00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:41,560
Speaker 2: affordable and accessible for everyone. The second was a politics

988
00:57:41,560 --> 00:57:45,440
Speaker 2: of curiosity and not judgment. They talked to voters across

989
00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:48,080
Speaker 2: the political divide. The first video that Zoron Mamdanni went

990
00:57:48,160 --> 00:57:51,480
Speaker 2: viral for was a video of him having respectful dialogue

991
00:57:51,480 --> 00:57:54,440
Speaker 2: finding common ground with Trump voters on the street. The

992
00:57:54,480 --> 00:57:57,560
Speaker 2: third was a politics of place. All of them very

993
00:57:57,640 --> 00:58:01,320
Speaker 2: much rooted their politics in their commitment to their neighbors,

994
00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:03,440
Speaker 2: to the community, to the state, to the city that

995
00:58:03,480 --> 00:58:07,040
Speaker 2: they were running to represent or govern, and that common identity,

996
00:58:07,080 --> 00:58:10,600
Speaker 2: which the Republicans do very effectively with that America first Moniker.

997
00:58:11,360 --> 00:58:14,360
Speaker 2: Rooting your politics in your community and your neighbors rather

998
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:18,800
Speaker 2: than your partisan or ideological affiliation. That is transcendent. And

999
00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:20,840
Speaker 2: so whether you were running in a red area or

1000
00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:23,400
Speaker 2: a blue area, whether you're progressive or a moderate, you

1001
00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:26,440
Speaker 2: can run and win when you employ those three politics effectively,

1002
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:29,080
Speaker 2: the politics of affordability, the politics of curiosity, in the

1003
00:58:29,080 --> 00:58:29,920
Speaker 2: politics of place.

1004
00:58:30,800 --> 00:58:33,480
Speaker 1: When you look toward the mid terms, how concerned are

1005
00:58:33,520 --> 00:58:37,680
Speaker 1: you about the tip for tat redistricting battles that are

1006
00:58:37,720 --> 00:58:41,400
Speaker 1: going on in the country because it seems like Republicans may,

1007
00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:44,600
Speaker 1: in fact, as its stands, gain one seat in the House.

1008
00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:49,320
Speaker 1: Is that going to be insurmountable for Democrats?

1009
00:58:50,040 --> 00:58:53,800
Speaker 2: I think what we've seen on redistricting is the perfect

1010
00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:58,120
Speaker 2: example of fighting hard and fighting smart. We had to

1011
00:58:58,120 --> 00:59:03,320
Speaker 2: meet fire with fire. Republicans, if left to their own devices,

1012
00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:07,800
Speaker 2: were going to redistrict in so many states that they

1013
00:59:07,840 --> 00:59:10,760
Speaker 2: could have had a net gain that would have made

1014
00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:14,720
Speaker 2: it much more challenging, if not potentially insurmountable, for Democrats

1015
00:59:14,920 --> 00:59:18,800
Speaker 2: to effectively compete for the House with these largely unprecedented

1016
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:24,880
Speaker 2: mid decade partisan redistricting efforts. California responded in kind that

1017
00:59:24,960 --> 00:59:29,520
Speaker 2: dramatically mitigated the impact of Texas. We just saw recently. Utah,

1018
00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:33,480
Speaker 2: through fair maps in their courts, will potentially be having

1019
00:59:33,520 --> 00:59:37,200
Speaker 2: a blue seat created in Salt Lake City. If we

1020
00:59:37,320 --> 00:59:43,240
Speaker 2: had just let Republicans pursue this redistricting strategy, with a

1021
00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:47,480
Speaker 2: completely clear runway, we could have seen them lock Democrats

1022
00:59:47,560 --> 00:59:50,600
Speaker 2: out of competition in free and fair elections for a

1023
00:59:50,640 --> 00:59:54,600
Speaker 2: generation or more. But because Democrats responded in the places

1024
00:59:54,600 --> 00:59:57,240
Speaker 2: that they had power, we were able to mitigate the impact. So,

1025
00:59:57,280 --> 00:59:59,640
Speaker 2: whether it's a net gain for Republicans of wan to

1026
01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:03,320
Speaker 2: three four, as long as it's in single digits, I

1027
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:07,200
Speaker 2: think we will be able to overcome whatever slight advantage

1028
01:00:07,240 --> 01:00:10,600
Speaker 2: Republicans gain in this battle. And what I always say

1029
01:00:10,640 --> 01:00:14,439
Speaker 2: to folks who want to see Democrats fight as hard

1030
01:00:14,440 --> 01:00:16,480
Speaker 2: as possible in this moment, I say, if you want

1031
01:00:16,560 --> 01:00:18,680
Speaker 2: us to fight like blue state governors, you've got to

1032
01:00:18,680 --> 01:00:20,640
Speaker 2: give us the power of blue state governors. That means

1033
01:00:20,640 --> 01:00:23,600
Speaker 2: getting us the majority in twenty twenty six, so that

1034
01:00:23,640 --> 01:00:25,600
Speaker 2: we have the levers of power in the House of

1035
01:00:25,640 --> 01:00:28,760
Speaker 2: Representatives to hold this administration accountable, to serve as a check,

1036
01:00:29,440 --> 01:00:31,800
Speaker 2: and to do all that we can with the power

1037
01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:35,520
Speaker 2: that we would have to protect our democracy and ultimately

1038
01:00:35,560 --> 01:00:38,360
Speaker 2: restore care and protect people's pocketbooks.

1039
01:00:39,040 --> 01:00:43,280
Speaker 1: In closing, you've been a member of Congress for ten months.

1040
01:00:44,120 --> 01:00:47,320
Speaker 1: What do you think is the most valuable lesson you've

1041
01:00:47,400 --> 01:00:52,480
Speaker 1: learned so far? And how has your expectation matched the

1042
01:00:52,560 --> 01:00:55,360
Speaker 1: reality of what it's like to do this job.

1043
01:00:56,520 --> 01:00:59,280
Speaker 2: As someone who had been in the state legislature, had

1044
01:00:59,320 --> 01:01:02,240
Speaker 2: worked in national advocacy, had spent a lot of time

1045
01:01:02,280 --> 01:01:05,320
Speaker 2: on the hill, knew a lot of history. I don't

1046
01:01:05,320 --> 01:01:08,840
Speaker 2: think anyone can realize what it's like until you were there.

1047
01:01:09,120 --> 01:01:13,240
Speaker 2: The Capital is such a cacophony of feedback and noise,

1048
01:01:14,600 --> 01:01:18,560
Speaker 2: the world's most pivotal and impactful reality show that you

1049
01:01:18,560 --> 01:01:20,960
Speaker 2: could be stepping into. And again, that's a sad indictment

1050
01:01:21,040 --> 01:01:24,000
Speaker 2: of what Congress is like, and it's hard to fathom

1051
01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:28,160
Speaker 2: until and unless you were there. I think the biggest

1052
01:01:28,240 --> 01:01:32,040
Speaker 2: lesson that I take away from in this moment is

1053
01:01:32,080 --> 01:01:35,760
Speaker 2: that with so much on the line, we're going to

1054
01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:39,760
Speaker 2: have to do hard things. It's not going to feel

1055
01:01:40,080 --> 01:01:44,800
Speaker 2: great all the time. It's not going to be fun

1056
01:01:45,040 --> 01:01:48,560
Speaker 2: and fair. It's not going to always feel like we're

1057
01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:51,560
Speaker 2: moving forward. But we are going to have to both

1058
01:01:51,680 --> 01:01:55,200
Speaker 2: play the short term game and the long game if

1059
01:01:55,240 --> 01:02:00,000
Speaker 2: we're going to make that progress permanent. There's something unsatisfied

1060
01:02:00,000 --> 01:02:03,720
Speaker 2: buying in how long change takes. But one of the

1061
01:02:03,760 --> 01:02:06,840
Speaker 2: things that I take solace in is the fact that

1062
01:02:07,160 --> 01:02:10,800
Speaker 2: change takes time. As unfair as that is, and as

1063
01:02:10,920 --> 01:02:13,720
Speaker 2: unsatisfying as that is, we can try to make it

1064
01:02:13,760 --> 01:02:15,720
Speaker 2: as fast as possible, and we must make it as

1065
01:02:15,760 --> 01:02:19,200
Speaker 2: fast as possible. But the fact that it's hard, that

1066
01:02:19,360 --> 01:02:21,400
Speaker 2: is a feature of democracy, not a bug of it,

1067
01:02:22,200 --> 01:02:24,840
Speaker 2: because it also means that those on the other side

1068
01:02:24,880 --> 01:02:27,880
Speaker 2: don't get everything they want in one foul swoop, and

1069
01:02:27,920 --> 01:02:30,880
Speaker 2: so as unsatisfying as it can be, it's also a

1070
01:02:30,920 --> 01:02:34,480
Speaker 2: reflection of the fact that we maintain a healthy democracy.

1071
01:02:34,960 --> 01:02:37,440
Speaker 2: But there's a give and take that we can have

1072
01:02:37,480 --> 01:02:41,000
Speaker 2: these painful conversations out in the open, and that while

1073
01:02:41,000 --> 01:02:43,120
Speaker 2: it might be two steps forward and one step back

1074
01:02:43,200 --> 01:02:45,840
Speaker 2: in the long course of history, the arc of the

1075
01:02:45,880 --> 01:02:47,640
Speaker 2: moral universe will bend toward justice.

1076
01:02:48,680 --> 01:02:53,800
Speaker 1: I've so enjoyed and appreciated this conversation, Sarah. Thank you

1077
01:02:53,920 --> 01:02:58,400
Speaker 1: so much for doing this and for fighting the good fight,

1078
01:02:58,880 --> 01:03:01,520
Speaker 1: and for not giving up, and for putting up with

1079
01:03:02,160 --> 01:03:05,520
Speaker 1: so much bs, which I know is must be really

1080
01:03:05,560 --> 01:03:09,960
Speaker 1: hard and painful, but carrying yourself with that word you

1081
01:03:10,000 --> 01:03:11,360
Speaker 1: often use such grace.

1082
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Speaker 2: Thank you. It makes a lot easier. Having great friends

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Speaker 2: and family and everything back in Delaware makes all of

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01:03:17,360 --> 01:03:20,520
Speaker 2: the things down in DC worthwhile. Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for me,

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01:03:30,760 --> 01:03:33,240
Speaker 1: a subject you want us to cover, or you want

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01:03:33,280 --> 01:03:36,640
Speaker 1: to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world,

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01:03:37,000 --> 01:03:40,200
Speaker 1: reach out send me a DM on Instagram. I would

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01:03:40,280 --> 01:03:43,280
Speaker 1: love to hear from you. Next Question is a production

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01:03:43,440 --> 01:03:47,920
Speaker 1: of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media. The executive producers are Me,

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01:03:48,240 --> 01:03:52,920
Speaker 1: Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz,

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01:03:53,440 --> 01:03:58,280
Speaker 1: and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian

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01:03:58,320 --> 01:04:03,440
Speaker 1: Weller composed our theme. For more information about today's episode,

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01:04:03,600 --> 01:04:06,000
Speaker 1: or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call,

1095
01:04:06,440 --> 01:04:09,360
Speaker 1: go to the description in the podcast app, or visit

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01:04:09,440 --> 01:04:12,640
Speaker 1: us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me

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01:04:12,720 --> 01:04:16,439
Speaker 1: on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more

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01:04:16,480 --> 01:04:21,800
Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

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Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Hi. Everyone, it's Katiekuric.

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Speaker 1: You know I'm always on the go between running my

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Speaker 1: media company, hosting my podcast, and of course covering the news,

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Speaker 1: and I know that to keep doing what I love,

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Speaker 1: aging parents, connecting with a licensed therapist is a great

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