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When you pop 10 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 1: a piece of cheese into your mouth, you're probably not 11 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 1: thinking about the environmental impact. But the people in the 12 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: dairy industry are. That's why they're working hard every day 13 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 1: to find new ways to reduce waste, conserve natural resources, 14 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. How is US Dairy 15 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:48,520 Speaker 1: tackling greenhouse gases? Many farms use anaerobic digesters to turn 16 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: the methane from manure into renewable energy that can power farms, towns, 17 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 1: and electric cars. Visit us dairy dot COM's Last Sustainability 18 00:00:57,280 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 1: to learn more. 19 00:00:59,000 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 2: Hi. 20 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 3: I'm David Ego from the podcast Inner Cosmos, which recently 21 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:05,759 Speaker 3: hit the number one science podcast in America. I mean 22 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 3: neuroscientists at Stanford, and I've spent my career exploring the 23 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 3: three pound universe in our heads. 24 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 2: Join me weekly to explore the relationship. 25 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 3: Between your brain and your life, because the more we 26 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 3: know about what's running under the hood, better we can 27 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 3: steer our lives. Listen to Inner Cosmos with David Eagleman 28 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 3: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get 29 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 3: your podcasts. 30 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 2: Hey, Daniel, do me a good physics story. 31 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: Oh you came to the right place. 32 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 2: Okay, but don't tell me you say, a story about 33 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:44,959 Speaker 2: amazing physics. I want something with drama. 34 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 1: Oh, because like the universe isn't dramatic enough for you. 35 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 2: I mean I want a story with like intrigue and 36 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 2: sabotage and conflict and you know, people fighting and you know, revolutions. 37 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: Oh, I see you want like Jason Bourne in a 38 00:01:58,080 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 1: lab coat. 39 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 2: Yeah you know, don't you look like Mat dam or 40 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 2: Tom Cruise. You can make a movie called Thesis Impossible. 41 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: All right, you asked for it. I have got a 42 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 1: juicy story for you. 43 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:28,799 Speaker 2: Hi. I'm More Hamm, cartoonist and the creator of PhD comics. 44 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Daniel Whitson. I'm a particle physicist, and I 45 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: like to imagine that my dramatic life would be well 46 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 1: adapted to a telenovela. 47 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:39,240 Speaker 2: With a lot of twists and turns and evil twins, 48 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 2: twin particles. I guess there are twin particles, and physics. 49 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 1: There are twin men, though we don't know which ones 50 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 1: are good and which. 51 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 2: Ones we could be the evil twins. 52 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: That's right. And lots of dramatic revelations that your advisor 53 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 1: has other grad students you didn't even know about. 54 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 2: Dum dum. Well, Welcome to our podcast, Daniel and Jorge 55 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:01,680 Speaker 2: Explain the Universe. They product of iHeartRadio, in which we. 56 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 1: Take you on a tour of all the drama in 57 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 1: the universe, the black holes, the neutron stars, the tiny particles, 58 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 1: the discovery of those particles, and try to make you 59 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 1: understand what scientists are thinking about, what people on the 60 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:18,799 Speaker 1: very forefront of human understanding are puzzling over today. 61 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, because we like to talk about all the amazing 62 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 2: things out there to discover and all the things that 63 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:25,959 Speaker 2: we have discovered, and sometimes we like to talk about 64 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 2: how we discovered these things, because you know, sometimes the 65 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 2: story is pretty dramatic or you know, interesting, or tells 66 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 2: us a little bit about how signs work. 67 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 1: That's right, because you can look back at history and say, oh, 68 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 1: if I'd been around, I would have discovered the electron. 69 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 1: Or it's pretty simple actually to figure out what the 70 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 1: photon is, and it's a quantum mechanical object. But when 71 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: you're standing there. 72 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 2: I think you might be alone there, Dawn. Yeah, I 73 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 2: don't sit around thinking, you know, I could have discovered 74 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 2: the electronic. 75 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 1: Hey, Einstein won the Nobel Prize for interpreting other people's 76 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 1: experiments that were already published. It's like, you know, sit 77 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 1: around for an afternoon, read some papers, Nobel Prize. 78 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 2: Nobel Prize changed the course physicality. 79 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 1: So if you know how to do it, if you 80 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 1: know where to go, it's pretty straightforward. But when you're 81 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:10,560 Speaker 1: standing at the forefront of human ignorance and you don't 82 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 1: know what the solution is, it's much more complicated. So 83 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:16,280 Speaker 1: I think it's really worthwhile rewinding our understanding and remembering, 84 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 1: like what were people thinking at the moment, Why were 85 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 1: the questions they were asking, what was confusing? What was simple? 86 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 1: What were the ideas of the time. 87 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 2: I think what you're saying, Daniel, is that there's a 88 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:29,720 Speaker 2: fine line between a thought experiment and just making stuff up. 89 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:33,720 Speaker 1: That's right, and that's why I prefer to do real 90 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 1: experiments in the collider and actually ask nature questions. 91 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 2: All right, Well, today on the program, we'll be continuing 92 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:43,599 Speaker 2: our series about how particles weren't discovered. You know, particles 93 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:45,719 Speaker 2: of things that matter and all the things in the 94 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 2: universe are made out of How did we actually discover 95 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:50,719 Speaker 2: these things and know that they existed, and know what 96 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 2: they looked like, and know how much they weigh and 97 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 2: what they like to wear in the morning. 98 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 1: I don't even know how to respond to to that. 99 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:01,359 Speaker 1: I'm imagining a photon getting dressed or something. But I 100 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 1: think this is really fascinating because currently we have fantastic 101 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:08,480 Speaker 1: theoretical understanding of all the particles, how they fit together, 102 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:11,279 Speaker 1: what they are, and of course lots of outstanding questions. 103 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:14,159 Speaker 1: But there's a wonderful history there. Each particle was like 104 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 1: a hard fought victory. Each one was like, how do 105 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 1: we figure out that this particle is also there? And 106 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:23,280 Speaker 1: you know, in the end, our theory has to describe experiments. 107 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:26,279 Speaker 1: We've developed this theory in order to describe all the 108 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 1: crazy experiments that we've seen that revealed the existence of 109 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 1: those particles. So it's a lot of fun to sort 110 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:34,920 Speaker 1: of reimagine and understand how each one was. 111 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:37,840 Speaker 2: Discovered, because you know, I think looking at history now 112 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 2: and looking at science now, it's kind of hard to 113 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 2: believe sometimes that there was a time where we didn't 114 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:44,479 Speaker 2: know anything. We didn't know any of these things. We 115 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 2: didn't know that electrons existed, or plutonsic existed, or protons existed, 116 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 2: or what they wore in the morning, And so it's 117 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 2: kind of interesting to kind of put yourself in the 118 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:55,600 Speaker 2: mindset of the people who didn't know anything, but they 119 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 2: discovered what actually reality. 120 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 1: Is like absolutely, And it gives you another fun exercise, 121 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 1: which is to imagine somebody in a hundred years, how 122 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 1: would they look back at what we know now. They 123 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 1: will have hopefully a grasp of you know, the shape, 124 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 1: the size of the universe and why it's accelerating them, 125 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: maybe what the smallest particles are, and they'll look back 126 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 1: at us and they'll be like, oh my gosh, those 127 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 1: guys knew nothing about the universe. How did they even 128 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:19,279 Speaker 1: go to work? 129 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:21,599 Speaker 2: We were making stuff off on podcasts. 130 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 4: And. 131 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 1: I like to think of it, you know, human knowledge 132 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 1: as one of these exponentially growing graphs, and at every 133 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 1: point it seems like, wow, we know one hundred times 134 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:32,599 Speaker 1: what we knew fifty years ago, and then in fifty 135 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:35,919 Speaker 1: years we will again dwarf human knowledge. So I'm looking 136 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: forward to that. 137 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:38,479 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm looking forward to being dwarfed. 138 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:41,360 Speaker 1: There are positive exponential graphs, not just negative ones. 139 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 2: So we've done this podcast episode on electrons and positrons 140 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:49,559 Speaker 2: and photons and muons, and so do they On the program, 141 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 2: we'll be asking the question our quarks discovered? Is this 142 00:06:58,560 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 2: a quirky story? Daniel? 143 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 1: You know, this is one of the most dramatic stories 144 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 1: in all of particle physics. There really are crazy things 145 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 1: in these stories. You know. There is sabotage, There are 146 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 1: competing public announcements. There are arguments about how to name particles. 147 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 1: There are stories about leaked information being slipped from one 148 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 1: experiment to the other. What. Yeah, it's pretty crazy. No, 149 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 1: there is real drama. I mean, I'm waiting for the 150 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: six episode mini series on Netflix about this set. 151 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 2: Of murder explosions. No, we didn't get that far. 152 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 1: That's right. Tiger Kings becomes particle kings. 153 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 2: M oh, I see like the true crime woh, that 154 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 2: could be the new genre of Netflix true physics. But 155 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 2: as usual, we were wondering how many people out there 156 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 2: know the story of how quarts were invented, because, you know, 157 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 2: quarks and just a quick recap, there are the mini 158 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 2: particles that everything else is kind of made out of. 159 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 2: Most of everything else, protons and neutron are made out 160 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 2: of quarks, and so these are pretty fundamental particles, right Daniel. 161 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 2: They're not just like you know, some novelty. 162 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 1: That's right. They're not just some random thing you pick 163 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: up in the store on the way home and then 164 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 1: throw away unused. They are the things that make up 165 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 1: me and you. I am made out of atoms, and 166 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 1: those atoms have neutrons and protons at the center, and 167 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:21,559 Speaker 1: all those neutrons and protons are made of quarks. Yeah, 168 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 1: and all the matter that you've ever tasted and touched 169 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 1: and tripped over or thrown at each other is made 170 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 1: of quarks and electrons. So they're pretty important. 171 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. So, as Daniel does, he went out into the 172 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 2: streets and ask people if they knew how quarks were discovered. Now, 173 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:37,200 Speaker 2: as usually we'll think about it for a second. Then 174 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 2: put yourself one hundred years ago and ask yourself if 175 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:42,839 Speaker 2: you know how quarks were discovered. Here's what people had 176 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:47,679 Speaker 2: to say. Some scientists in the ageon collider found it. 177 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 2: I don't. I actually don't know how they were discovered. 178 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:56,080 Speaker 1: You know, I've been learned about that. Was it electron 179 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 1: cloud chamber or something. 180 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:00,720 Speaker 5: No, that'sn't not for quarks, that's for something else, positons 181 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 5: or something. 182 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 1: Seeing a particle accelerator, of course I don't know. All right, 183 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:06,439 Speaker 1: that's cool. 184 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 2: I don't even know what they are, So I just 185 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:15,080 Speaker 2: discovered by incleision of items. I mean, see, I don't 186 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 2: I don't remember the name of the machine, but this 187 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 2: collision of all right. Not a lot of deep knowledge 188 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:23,959 Speaker 2: of history of physics out in the public, No. 189 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 1: Not so much. There's some pretty good answers here. I 190 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:29,080 Speaker 1: like the guy who knows how positrons were discovered in 191 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: cloud chambers, and you know, people giving credit to the 192 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 1: Hadron collider, which is, you know, not too far off 193 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 1: that certainly were discovered in collisions. 194 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 2: Interesting, so you know some knowledge. It seems like some 195 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 2: people thought courts were discovered recently. 196 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:45,080 Speaker 1: Of like the lac. You know, this thing is twenty 197 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 1: years old. Tops and the quarks we've known about since 198 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:50,720 Speaker 1: the sixties and seventies, so it definitely was not the 199 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 1: large Hadron collider responsible for discovering. 200 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 2: Quarks, right, And I'm just curious here, how did you 201 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 2: get these questions? Did you ground into the street before 202 00:09:57,400 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 2: the pandemic or or during the pandemic? Do you have 203 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:04,559 Speaker 2: now like a six foot selfie stick with a microphone? I, shockingly, 204 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:07,319 Speaker 2: I actually work on these things kind of far in advance, 205 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:07,679 Speaker 2: so that. 206 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 1: I'm prepared for a pandemic. I have a stockpile of questions, 207 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 1: I asked people on the street. 208 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 2: I see you have a federal stock pile, the. 209 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 1: National Strategic Reserve. A random question. 210 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:22,319 Speaker 2: All right, good, So people were still feeling optimistic about science. 211 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 2: All right. It seems like not a lot of people 212 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 2: know the stories, and you're saying that it's full of 213 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:28,960 Speaker 2: drama and interesting twists and turns. So tell us the story, 214 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 2: Daniel set the scene, What was it like back then? 215 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 2: And what year are we talking about? 216 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 1: So let me take you back to nineteen forty seven, 217 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 1: A dramatic in a world, A cold winter blew into Chicago. 218 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 1: Now you have to sort of rewind back to before 219 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 1: the clues were found for quarks, and back in nineteen 220 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: forty seven, we actually had a pretty clear picture we 221 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 1: thought of how the universe looked. We felt like. 222 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:55,320 Speaker 2: Like we knew things were mid out of atoms, and 223 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 2: atoms were meant out of some bits inside. 224 00:10:57,440 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, we knew there were atoms. We knew those atoms 225 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:03,200 Speaker 1: had protons and neutrons and electrons. We also knew they 226 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 1: were photons. And we felt like, hey, that's a pretty 227 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:07,719 Speaker 1: good picture of the universe. And I think a lot 228 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 1: of people in physics felt like that might be it, 229 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 1: Like maybe you know, we're coming up to the last 230 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 1: end of the road and we're going to answer all 231 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 1: the questions, and that's going to give us a sort 232 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 1: of last sense for what the universes meant. 233 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 2: Like there can't be anything smaller than these particles. These 234 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 2: are it. These are the basic building blogs of life, 235 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 2: the universe and everything in it. 236 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:29,680 Speaker 1: That's right, But of course there were a few loose threads, right, 237 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 1: There were a few things which didn't quite fit into 238 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 1: that picture. And that's a lesson. Right, every time there's 239 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:38,440 Speaker 1: a little loose thread, one thing that doesn't quite fit 240 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 1: into the hole you wanted to. You should pull on 241 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 1: that thread, you should mix that metaphor, until you figure 242 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:44,960 Speaker 1: out the secrets of the. 243 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 2: Universe, you should just ignore it, repress it. 244 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:51,960 Speaker 1: And some of those those threads were things like muons. 245 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:54,560 Speaker 1: Like remember we talked about how muons were discovered, and 246 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 1: when they were first found, people were like, what who 247 00:11:56,840 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 1: ordered that? We don't need those muons? 248 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 2: I see, they're not part of the atom, for just 249 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 2: particles that seemed to have been there, but they weren't 250 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:05,559 Speaker 2: part of regular matter exactly. 251 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 1: That was the kind of clue we're talking about. And 252 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 1: there were other particles like pions that were found in 253 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 1: cosmic rays and people are like, huh, what are these 254 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 1: particles about? We don't need them to build matter. Interesting, 255 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 1: but they can't exist. Why do they even exist? What's 256 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:20,080 Speaker 1: the idea? 257 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:22,679 Speaker 2: I see? And so you see them, but they're not 258 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:25,080 Speaker 2: part of most of things. So I guess that's a 259 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:26,080 Speaker 2: weird thing, right. 260 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 1: It's a pretty weird thing. But it also gives you 261 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 1: a clue. It gives you a clue for like what 262 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:33,960 Speaker 1: kind of particles can be out there? And in the end, remember, 263 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 1: what you're looking for is an answer to the deepest 264 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 1: question right to understand like the nature of reality, So 265 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 1: you want the full menu, And those few little threads 266 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 1: then turned into I don't know what's the metaphor here, 267 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 1: a whole rug, I suppose, or a whole. 268 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 2: Pilot yard, a giant haystack. 269 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 1: A giant haystack. Because originally we had these weird unstable 270 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 1: particles muons and pions just from looking them come down 271 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 1: from the sky and cosmic rays. But then people build 272 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: particle acceleerate. They weren't satisfied just to sort of look 273 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 1: at a high energy particles that we already found in nature. 274 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:08,319 Speaker 1: They wanted to create their own collisions, to explore these 275 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 1: things with more control. So people build particle. 276 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 2: Accela smash things in front of them, not just yeah 277 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 2: wait till they come raining down. 278 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, you want to do it on your terms. You know, 279 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 1: you want to have control to say, I want to 280 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 1: turn up the energy, I want to turn down the energy. 281 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:23,840 Speaker 1: I want to collide this kind of particle, that kind 282 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 1: of particle, right. 283 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:25,719 Speaker 2: I want to see what it feels like when I 284 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 2: stick my hand into it. 285 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:31,679 Speaker 1: I mean that's a basic curiosity, right, And so what 286 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 1: they found when they built these accelerators, was a whole 287 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 1: lot of new particles. They found chaons and strange particles 288 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:41,199 Speaker 1: and all sorts of stuff. We talked a little bit 289 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 1: about strange matter on the program recently. And this is 290 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 1: an era we call the particle zoo because basically every 291 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 1: time they turned on the accelerator they found some new 292 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 1: part of that. 293 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 2: Did you guys have a theme song a jingle like 294 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 2: particle Zoo, Particle zoo. 295 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: Raw, welcome to our particles. 296 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I guess you didn't have particle accelerators, but 297 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 2: you thought, hey, let's see what else happened when things 298 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 2: smashed together, because that's I guess that's what you knew 299 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:09,679 Speaker 2: was happening in the atmosphere. 300 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, we had a sense that these things needed more energy. Right, 301 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:17,200 Speaker 1: these unstable particles were heavier, meaning that they contained more energy, 302 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 1: and then they decayed down to lighter particles. So to 303 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 1: try to create new heavy particles, you want to create 304 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 1: localized energy density. You want to smash two particles together. 305 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 1: So you got a little like blob of energy right there, 306 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 1: maybe enough to create something new. And so that's what 307 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 1: these first particle accelerators did was create these high energy 308 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 1: density situations where you could create these new particles, and 309 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 1: we found zillions and zillions of. 310 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 2: These because at this point you sort of knew about 311 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 2: equals mc square and then you knew that you know, 312 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 2: things can matter can come from pure energy. 313 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 1: That's right, you can create new matter. I mean it's alchemy, right. 314 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 1: People have been trying to do this for thousands of years, 315 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 1: and we actually were able to do it. By smashing 316 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 1: particles together at high energy, you can create new kinds 317 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:02,280 Speaker 1: of matter and that's exciting, right, like, wow, look, every 318 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 1: time you turn it on, you've created a new particle, 319 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 1: and then you get to name it after your puppy 320 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:10,280 Speaker 1: or whatever. But it's also confiding after their puppies. I 321 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 1: don't have a record of that. No, Back in that day, 322 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 1: they were mostly naming them after Greek letters, so you 323 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: got lots of you know, sigmas and thetas and upsilons 324 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 1: and this kind of stuff. But it was also confusing. 325 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:23,479 Speaker 2: Maybe they named their puppies after Greek letters. 326 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 1: Probably after them, lots of puppies named upsilon and theta. 327 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. 328 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 1: But you know, once you once you sort of your 329 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 1: dream is satisfied, you've created all these new particles, then 330 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: you're looking at it and you're looking for patterns. You're like, Okay, 331 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 1: why are there these particles and not other particles? What 332 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 1: does this mean about the nature. 333 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 2: Of the universe, Like, how are they related? 334 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, because we don't want an answer that says, oh, 335 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 1: there's nine hundred and forty two different kind of fundamental particles, right, 336 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: we suspect that the answer is a small number of particles. 337 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 1: We want to explain the whole universe using a small 338 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 1: set of pieces, right, like the legos. We want to 339 00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 1: build everything out of a small number of basic blocks 340 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 1: in nine hundred and seventy four. 341 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 2: And we often talk about how we had the periodic 342 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 2: table of elements and how that was kind of something 343 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 2: that told is that when you have a lot of 344 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 2: these things out there in the universe, there's probably some 345 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 2: kind of pattern or some kind of underlying building block 346 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 2: to them. 347 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, every time you see unexplained phenomena, weird patterns, trends 348 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 1: you don't understand, it's probably an emergent phenomenon from the 349 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 1: arrangement of smaller bits. Just like in the periodic table. 350 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 1: You see all these patterns, and that tells you that 351 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 1: there's something else going on, and You're absolutely right. Every 352 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 1: feature of the periodic table comes from how the electrons 353 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 1: sit in their orbitals around the nucleus, and so people suspected. 354 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 1: They're like, well, maybe all these new crazy particles we 355 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 1: found are reflective of something smaller, something tinier, and all 356 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 1: these patterns that masters these particles and the way they 357 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: interact come from how those little bits are fit together. 358 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:54,360 Speaker 1: That was sort of the nugget of the idea. 359 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 2: I see. And so they found the pattern right in 360 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 2: all of these particles in the particle zoo. They're like, 361 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 2: wait a minute. The lions are sort of like smaller 362 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 2: versions of the elephants, and the zeros are sort of 363 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:06,239 Speaker 2: have four legs, just like the lines kind of thing. 364 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, So we had a decade of discovering new particles, 365 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 1: and then in nineteen sixty one, a theorist came up 366 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:15,479 Speaker 1: with an idea. He said, well, I notice that if 367 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: I categorized the particles in two ways, one by their 368 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:23,880 Speaker 1: electric charge and the other way by their strangeness. And remember, 369 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 1: some of these particles are strange in the sense that 370 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 1: they last a lot longer than you would expect. And 371 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:32,160 Speaker 1: you can listen to our whole podcast episode about strangeness, 372 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 1: and so people postulated this new property of particles strangeness, 373 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 1: and they give particles strangeness zero, like the proton and 374 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: the neutron, or strangeness one or strangeness two, and then 375 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 1: they just made a. 376 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:47,199 Speaker 2: Table meaning like it's strange because given how massive it is, 377 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:49,400 Speaker 2: how much in ways, it shouldn't be around this lone. 378 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:52,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, Like, chaons last a lot longer than you would expect, 379 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 1: and the reason is that they have strangeness. Then the 380 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:58,440 Speaker 1: universe likes to preserve strangeness, so it tries to find 381 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:01,199 Speaker 1: a way for the chaon to decay to keep the 382 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 1: strangeness into products, and that takes longer. It's a weaker interaction. 383 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:08,359 Speaker 2: But protons are pretty stable and they're supposed to be stable, 384 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 2: so they have zero strange. 385 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, protons have no Now we know that strangeness actually 386 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 1: reflects the strange quarks inside of it, but at the 387 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:16,399 Speaker 1: time they didn't know. They were just like, this is 388 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 1: a property these particles, and a lot of particle physics, 389 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 1: it's just like writing down properties we observe and wondering 390 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:25,400 Speaker 1: where they come from and wondering if we can see 391 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 1: patterns and then explain those patterns in terms of something deeper. 392 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:31,680 Speaker 1: So at the time, you know, they knew the charge 393 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:33,880 Speaker 1: of these particles, they could measure that, and they'd sort 394 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:36,920 Speaker 1: of invented this idea of strangeness just by observing how 395 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:41,440 Speaker 1: the particles decayed and labeling them strangeness one, strangeness zero. 396 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 1: And then they noticed this pattern. They called it the 397 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: eightfold way because they noticed that if you arrange the 398 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:52,120 Speaker 1: particles according to strangeness versus charge, that they formed these octagons, right, 399 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:55,439 Speaker 1: and they formed these triangles and all these really interesting 400 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 1: geometric patterns. 401 00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 2: All right, So they found a bunch of particles and 402 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 2: they found a pattern, maybe a clue to what all 403 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 2: these particles mean. 404 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, and they found these gemeasric patterns, and that suggested 405 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 1: to them that, like, you know, maybe there's something going 406 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:12,200 Speaker 1: on here, maybe there's a reason for all these patterns. 407 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:14,920 Speaker 1: And the theorists that came up with this eightfold way 408 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:17,760 Speaker 1: found a hole in those patterns, like there was one 409 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 1: triangle that was missing a corner. They said, okay, well, 410 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 1: maybe there's a particle there. You would have to have 411 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:25,879 Speaker 1: this strangeness and this charge to be in that corner. 412 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 1: And he predicted its existence and then they found it like, oh, 413 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 1: you were right, this new particle does exist. So that 414 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 1: was the first clue that maybe this pattern really reflected. 415 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 2: Something because it wasn't just imaginary, like they weren't just 416 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:44,160 Speaker 2: imagining things. You could actually find particles using these pattern Yeah, just. 417 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 1: Like with the periodic table. We started putting it together 418 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:49,400 Speaker 1: and we noticed some holes. We're like, where's this element 419 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:51,879 Speaker 1: number or whatever that we don't see in nature. It 420 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:54,479 Speaker 1: turns out, you know, it does exist, you can create it. 421 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:57,479 Speaker 1: It's just very unstable. In the same way they were 422 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 1: able to fill out these triangles and these octagon of 423 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 1: the eightfold way. 424 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 2: All right, well, let's get into what this pattern actually 425 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:08,439 Speaker 2: meant or means and how it helped them make sense 426 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:11,680 Speaker 2: of the particle zoo. But first, let's take a quick break. 427 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 1: With big wireless providers, what you see is never what 428 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:21,680 Speaker 1: you get. 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Savings is available to Applecard owners 473 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:41,639 Speaker 1: subject to eligibility. Apple Card and Savings by Goldman Sachs Bank, USA, 474 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:44,919 Speaker 1: Salt Lake City Branch member FDIC terms and more at 475 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 1: applecard dot com. 476 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 2: All right, then, so they found a bunch of particles 477 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 2: and they saw that there was some kind of pattern 478 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:01,199 Speaker 2: to the meaning that there was something going on here. 479 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, every time you see a pattern, that's your 480 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 1: first clue because it lets you sort of play games 481 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 1: with what's going on underneath. Right, you want to find 482 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,400 Speaker 1: some way to explain a very complicated set of things. 483 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:17,200 Speaker 1: You've observed ninety two different particles with all weird masses 484 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 1: and behaviors in terms of a smaller set of objects, 485 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,479 Speaker 1: And so finding that pattern gave them a clue as 486 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 1: to how to put that together. 487 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 2: And so they came up with the idea that maybe 488 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 2: there are even smaller particles that kind of put together 489 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 2: to make these bigger part of les. 490 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, And that's sort of the idea that particle 491 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 1: physicists are always looking to, right, like everything is made 492 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,920 Speaker 1: of smaller bits. That's like the oldest idea in particle physics. 493 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:42,400 Speaker 1: And so they thought, well, we have all these particles, 494 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 1: can we explain them in terms of smaller bits? Right? 495 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,159 Speaker 2: They're like we're particle physics. You only have particles. 496 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 1: That's right. That's right, that's our handm. 497 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:52,159 Speaker 2: Like when you have a particle, everything looks like a 498 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:53,199 Speaker 2: particle tea. 499 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 1: That's our hammer. So everything's a nail exactly. And this 500 00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:00,879 Speaker 1: idea actually came up independently by two different theorists, and 501 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:03,520 Speaker 1: they came up with the same idea that they could 502 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 1: be these three little particles that, if you put them 503 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 1: together in different combinations, explain all the particles that we see. 504 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 2: But not all of them, right, Like some of them 505 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:14,359 Speaker 2: like the muon. Isn't the meon kind of like an 506 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 2: electron and can't be split? 507 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:18,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, they don't explain all those particles, like the muon 508 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:23,440 Speaker 1: is not made of quarks. But all those particles discovered 509 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,680 Speaker 1: in the particle Zoo, the pions, the chaons, the sigma particles, 510 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,720 Speaker 1: all those kind of particles, they could explain all these 511 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:33,679 Speaker 1: new ones in terms of these little basic particles. And 512 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 1: so Murray Gelman came up with this idea and he 513 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 1: called them quarks based on a word that he saw 514 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 1: in a James Joyce novel. And at the same time 515 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,960 Speaker 1: another theorist named Zwig came up with exactly the same 516 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 1: idea mathematically and published it, but he called them asians. 517 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,439 Speaker 2: See mean, mathematically like the mass predicted there would be 518 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 2: three of these. 519 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:55,200 Speaker 1: Well, at the time, all these particles were only made 520 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 1: out of these three quarks. Now we know that there 521 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 1: were up quarks, down quarks in strange cores. Right up 522 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:02,680 Speaker 1: and down is what you need to make the proton 523 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 1: and the neutron. You add in strange to make all 524 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 1: these other strange particles like the chon and the omega 525 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 1: and the sigma particles. And so at the time they 526 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 1: only needed three and the particles they were creating only 527 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:15,679 Speaker 1: used those three lego pieces. 528 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 2: Oh, I see, but now we know there are more. 529 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 1: Now we know there are more. Yeah, the story goes 530 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 1: on and on. 531 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:23,440 Speaker 2: All right, sort of mathematically to explain the ones they had, 532 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:24,359 Speaker 2: they thought there were three. 533 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:26,639 Speaker 1: That's right. And they discovered that if you postulate the 534 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,640 Speaker 1: existence of these three particles, that you could put them 535 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 1: together in pairs and triplets to explain all the particles 536 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 1: that they were seeing. So it's like peeling back a 537 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 1: layer of reality and saying, oh, all of these things 538 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:42,680 Speaker 1: are just different ways to combine these basic building blocks. 539 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:45,680 Speaker 1: And not only could they explain all the particles that 540 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 1: we had seen. They could show which particles we hadn't 541 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 1: yet seen, Like, oh, nobody's tried this combination that would 542 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,480 Speaker 1: give you this particle and predicting it, and then we 543 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:56,920 Speaker 1: find it. And that's exactly what happened with this omega 544 00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 1: minus particle that we mentioned earlier. 545 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 2: That's what they found. They've found articles that were predicted 546 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 2: by these aces and quarks. 547 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And so that's pretty convincing. And you know, 548 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,159 Speaker 1: if you ask me, I would have believed it, Like 549 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:09,920 Speaker 1: at that point, I would have been sold on this 550 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 1: quark idea. I would have been like, well, this, this 551 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,919 Speaker 1: explains it. It describes all the particles we see, It 552 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 1: simplifies things, it holds together. 553 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:20,119 Speaker 2: But you hadn't seen them. I guess there were just 554 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:23,360 Speaker 2: sort of like an idea that seems to predict things, 555 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 2: but you hadn't like directly seen them. 556 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so most physicists were like, all right, that's 557 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:30,879 Speaker 1: a cute idea, but is it an idea or is 558 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 1: it real? 559 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:32,200 Speaker 4: Right? 560 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 1: Is that what's actually happening inside these particles or is 561 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 1: it just a nice thing you can calculate in your mind. 562 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 1: And this sort of a deep philosophical question there about 563 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 1: whether any of our theories are more than just ideas 564 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,040 Speaker 1: we calculate in our mind, and whether we actually see 565 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:48,760 Speaker 1: anything directly. But physicists were skeptical. 566 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,920 Speaker 2: I guess they're like m aces. I'm not sure I 567 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 2: would call that an ace. 568 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I don't know the history of why quarks 569 00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 1: took off instead of aces. Actually like aces better than quarks. Quarks. 570 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,920 Speaker 1: It's kind of a weird Quarks sounds like yogurt, you know. 571 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:07,240 Speaker 2: I think yogurt sounds like quarks. There is a yogurt 572 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,879 Speaker 2: called quarks. I guess why would you call them? 573 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:13,680 Speaker 1: Know, it's it's a positive thing, you know, it's celebratory 574 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:15,640 Speaker 1: in some way. Or it's like, hey, look we found 575 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 1: the little less bits, like the number one particle. I 576 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 1: don't know. It sits in a nice spot somewhere in 577 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 1: my brain. 578 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,400 Speaker 2: I see. But maybe Gelman was probably thinking like, hey, 579 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 2: these are weird, odd and new. Let's find it a 580 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:27,720 Speaker 2: ward that's kind of weird odd in you. 581 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:30,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, perhaps perhaps. And I guess the field liked his 582 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,640 Speaker 1: idea better because quarks is now what we call them. 583 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 2: Really, it was totally just a name popularity content. 584 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: YEA I don't. I've done some reading to try to 585 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 1: figure out, like why quarks took off. It might not 586 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 1: just be a name popularity. I think Gelmont had a 587 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,920 Speaker 1: larger personality and was more famous and influential, and so, 588 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 1: you know, it's a bit of a political thing. 589 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:50,120 Speaker 2: Doesn't it depend on who published first? 590 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, but you know it was just about the same time. 591 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 2: But sometimes like the second counts, right, the minute counts. 592 00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,640 Speaker 1: I think that's ridiculous. But we'll hear a story later 593 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:03,399 Speaker 1: on this program about two discoveries announced on the same day. 594 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 2: All right, so they were theoretical and some people didn't 595 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,880 Speaker 2: believe them. But then what happened? How did we say, hey, look, 596 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:09,640 Speaker 2: quarks are real. 597 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 1: So then we got some actual evidence because they did 598 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:14,920 Speaker 1: some experiments, and experimentalists said, well, if these things are real, 599 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,160 Speaker 1: we should be able to see them, meaning we should 600 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 1: be able to take a proton and shoot particles at 601 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,440 Speaker 1: it and see this internal structure. I mean, if protons 602 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: are not just like tiny perfect dots or perfectly smooth, 603 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,960 Speaker 1: if they're actually made of three like hard nuggets bound together, 604 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 1: we should be able to see them. If we shoot 605 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:36,639 Speaker 1: electrons adament with high enough internet and. 606 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 2: What made them think that the proton was deconstructible or breakable, 607 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 2: but not the electron. 608 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 1: Oh boy, that's a good question. We don't know if 609 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 1: the electron is deconstructible. We are doing experiments to try 610 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 1: to figure that out. We had a podcast episode about 611 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 1: whether the electron has stuff inside it. I guess the 612 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 1: short answer is, we don't know, and we're trying to 613 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 1: see if the electron has stuff inside of it. We've 614 00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 1: never seen any evidence. 615 00:28:57,960 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 2: They're just like, hey, let's match these two things together 616 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:00,320 Speaker 2: and whatever. 617 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:02,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, but the theory went that the proton was built 618 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 1: out of quarks, and so that's what they were testing. 619 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 1: The suggestion was you could maybe see these things inside protons. 620 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,040 Speaker 1: Nobody suspected that electrons were made out of quarks, and 621 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 1: we know today that the electron doesn't feel a strong 622 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 1: force and so it can't be made out of quarks. 623 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 1: We don't know why and what the difference is that 624 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 1: the whole other podcast episode. But anyway, they used electrons 625 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 1: because they're cheap and fast and small to shoot at 626 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 1: protons to try to see what was inside them. 627 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 2: I guess protons are heavier. 628 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,920 Speaker 1: Protons are much heavier than than the electrons. And the 629 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 1: idea was that maybe they had this structure, and so 630 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 1: you shoot electrons at a proton, it will bounce off, 631 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 1: but if you shoot it at high enough energy, then 632 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 1: it can get to break it. They had to break it. 633 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 1: You can get between those bonds, right. A proton we 634 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 1: now know is made out of quarks that are held 635 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 1: together by really strong bonds. But if you shoot at 636 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 1: it with electrons that have energy more than the energy 637 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 1: of those bonds, then those bonds are sort of irrelevant 638 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 1: and you can bounce off the end vidual quarks. 639 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 2: And so they did that. They shot the proton with 640 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 2: the revolver in the library, and they found that the 641 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 2: protons split into three. 642 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, they found not necessarily that it's split into three, 643 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 1: because remember these quarks can't be alone, and so if 644 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,080 Speaker 1: you break up a proton, it just the quarks inside 645 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 1: of it just form a new proton and new other particles. 646 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 1: But what they found was that there were three sort 647 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 1: of hard centers in the proton, three places where if 648 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 1: you hit it just right, it would bounce back at 649 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 1: a great angle rather than passing through. 650 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 2: Oh, they were looking at the bounce rate. 651 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, they were looking at the bounce rate and the 652 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 1: bounce angles essentially, and so if the proton is a 653 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 1: totally solid sphere, then you'll always sort of get the 654 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 1: same angles, whereas if the proton is mostly transparent with 655 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 1: three hard nuggets in it, then often it'll just go 656 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 1: Your electron will go right through it, and sometimes it'll 657 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 1: bounce off. 658 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 2: But how did they know there was three of them? Like, 659 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 2: can you could they actually aim electrons with that sort 660 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 2: of sub. 661 00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 1: You can't aim. It's all statistical. You can't aim at 662 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 1: an individual quark. You can count how many hard centers 663 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,240 Speaker 1: there are by how often you get a hard bounce back. 664 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 1: And you know, this is very similar to the way 665 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,320 Speaker 1: the nucleus of the atom was discovered back in the 666 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:11,000 Speaker 1: day or on the turn of the century, before we 667 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 1: even knew that the atom had an electron with a 668 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 1: nucleus in it. Rutherford discovered the nucleus in this exact 669 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 1: same way. He shot particles at nuclei and found that 670 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 1: mostly they went through, but occasionally they bounced right back, 671 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,160 Speaker 1: and that's how he discovered the nucleuss. 672 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:29,479 Speaker 2: We're still not convinced they saw these hard centers nugad centers, 673 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 2: and physicists are still like, yeah, I don't know if 674 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 2: that those are cool. 675 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, it amazes me. I don't understand what physicists were 676 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 1: thinking at the time. Like you had this beautiful idea 677 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,920 Speaker 1: of these tiny particles that explained this big mystery that 678 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,360 Speaker 1: had been going on for twenty years about the particle zoo, 679 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 1: and then you had this evidence that these particles really 680 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 1: were made out of smaller particles, and still physicists were like, ah, 681 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:52,360 Speaker 1: I don't know. And I think part of it is 682 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 1: that they couldn't see the quarks on their own, right. 683 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:59,200 Speaker 1: They couldn't like create independent, standalone quarks and study them 684 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 1: like with all the other particles. 685 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,440 Speaker 2: They're only looking at X rays and not at you know, 686 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 2: holding the bones in their hands. 687 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:07,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, quarks, you can't see them by themselves. 688 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 1: They can never be on their own. They're always tightly 689 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 1: bound into these in combinations of other quarks into other particles. 690 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 1: So maybe that's what motivated this skepticism. But you know, 691 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:19,840 Speaker 1: I would have been on that train long before this. 692 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 2: Hey he would have been wearing the cork hat. Yeah, yeah, 693 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 2: all right, So it sounds like it was still sort 694 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 2: of an idea, maybe a little unproven. People were unconvinced. 695 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 2: But then something amazing happened, and so let's get into that. 696 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 2: But first let's take a quick break. 697 00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:40,120 Speaker 1: When you pop a piece of cheese into your mouth 698 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 1: or enjoy a rich spoonful of greeky yogurt, you're probably 699 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:47,440 Speaker 1: not thinking about the environmental impact of each and every bite. 700 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 1: But the people in the dairy industry are. US Dairy 701 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:54,440 Speaker 1: has set themselves some ambitious sustainability goals, including being greenhouse 702 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 1: gas neutral by twenty to fifty. That's why they're working 703 00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 1: hard every day to find new ways to reduce waste, 704 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:03,680 Speaker 1: conserve for resources, and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. Take water, 705 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:07,280 Speaker 1: for example, most dairy farms reuse water up to four times. 706 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 1: The same water cools the milk, cleans equipment, washes the barn, 707 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 1: and irrigates the crops. How is US dairy tackling greenhouse gases? 708 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,640 Speaker 1: Many farms use anaerobic digestors that turn the methane from 709 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 1: maneuver into renewable energy that can power farms, towns, and 710 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:23,320 Speaker 1: electric cars. So the next time you grab a slice 711 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:25,200 Speaker 1: of pizza or lick an ice cream cone, know that 712 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:27,920 Speaker 1: dairy farmers and processors around the country are using the 713 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 1: latest practices and innovations to provide the nutrient deents dairy 714 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 1: products we love with less of an impact. Visit usdairy 715 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 1: dot com slash sustainability to learn more. 716 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 6: Hey everyone, this is Jimmy O'Brien from Johnboy Media. I 717 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 6: want to quickly tell you about my podcast. It's called 718 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:47,360 Speaker 6: Jimmy's Three Things. Episodes come out every Tuesday and for 719 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,480 Speaker 6: about thirty minutes, I dive into three topics in Major 720 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 6: League Baseball that I am interested in. Breaking stories, trends, stats, 721 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:58,479 Speaker 6: weird stuff. Sometimes I make up my own stats. Sometimes 722 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:00,719 Speaker 6: I do a lot of research and it ends up 723 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 6: I was wrong the whole time. So that's something you 724 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,240 Speaker 6: can get in on. Use Jimmy's Three Things podcast to 725 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:08,920 Speaker 6: stay up to date on Major League Baseball and to 726 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 6: make you just a smidge smarter than your friend who's 727 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,400 Speaker 6: a baseball fan. You listen to me and then you 728 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:17,239 Speaker 6: go tell him, hey, I know this and you don't, 729 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:19,960 Speaker 6: So I make you smarter than your friends. That's what 730 00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 6: Jimmy's Three Things is all about. Listen to Jimmy's Three 731 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:27,319 Speaker 6: Things on iHeartRadio, app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get 732 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 6: your podcast. You could also find it on the Talking 733 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:34,840 Speaker 6: Baseball YouTube channel and new episodes drop every Tuesday. 734 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:38,080 Speaker 4: Hey everyone, Jake's story. Elli hear from John Boy Media. 735 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:40,759 Speaker 4: I want to tell you about my podcast, Waken Jake. 736 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:47,880 Speaker 4: It's your go to spot for anything and everything sports baseball, football, basketball, hockey, golf, college, 737 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:50,480 Speaker 4: whatever's hot in the street, we're talking about it on 738 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:52,960 Speaker 4: Waken Jake. So if you're a die hard fan or 739 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:56,440 Speaker 4: looking for the latest buzz, we've got you covered. No 740 00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,760 Speaker 4: matter your favorite sport, We're breaking it down with the passion. 741 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,720 Speaker 4: It'll make you feel like you're in the stands with us. Plus, 742 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:06,040 Speaker 4: we've got a bunch of guests Foolish Bailey, Jolly Olive, 743 00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:10,719 Speaker 4: Chris Rose and more. Mock drafts, rankings, whatever you want. 744 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,680 Speaker 4: It's the sports world, and come on and join our 745 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,880 Speaker 4: friends in the Waken Jake family. You will not regret it. 746 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:20,760 Speaker 4: So new episodes Monday and Wednesday. You can watch along 747 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:23,759 Speaker 4: on the Waken Jake YouTube channel, or listen to Waken 748 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 4: Jake on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 749 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:28,239 Speaker 4: get your podcasts. 750 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:40,520 Speaker 2: All right, Daniel, tell me about the November Revolution. It 751 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,560 Speaker 2: sounds like the October Revolution. Does this happened? A month later, 752 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 2: or is this a totally different thing. 753 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:47,520 Speaker 1: I know, it sounds like something that should have happened 754 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:50,440 Speaker 1: at you know, at the Alamo or something, but this 755 00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:53,680 Speaker 1: is a revolution or with stars and you know, and 756 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:55,799 Speaker 1: a Korea, And as far as I'm aware, nobody died 757 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:58,520 Speaker 1: on this revolution. But this is sort of the day 758 00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,120 Speaker 1: that physics changed its mind, went from like, quarks are 759 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:02,719 Speaker 1: an idea to quarks. 760 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:04,480 Speaker 2: Are a real thing, and there's an actual date. 761 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:07,440 Speaker 1: It's an actual date. Yeah, and that's because that's the 762 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:10,719 Speaker 1: date of the dueling press conferences that are the end 763 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:11,280 Speaker 1: of the story. 764 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:12,719 Speaker 2: Yeah. 765 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:16,759 Speaker 1: And the idea was, if quarks are real, maybe there 766 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:19,800 Speaker 1: are more of them, Like we only needed three up, down, 767 00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:22,840 Speaker 1: and strange to explain all the particles that we've seen before. 768 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:25,560 Speaker 1: But how do we know there aren't more quarks like 769 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,320 Speaker 1: a fourth quark or now we know there are six quarks? 770 00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:31,239 Speaker 1: And there are actually some theorists that said, you know, 771 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:33,919 Speaker 1: it's weird to have three because the up and down 772 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,520 Speaker 1: are sort of a pair that go together. What about 773 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 1: the strange cork? Like where is its partner? And you 774 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:42,600 Speaker 1: can associate the down cork and the strange cork they 775 00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:46,360 Speaker 1: have the same electric charge. Where's the partner of the upcark? Right, 776 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,600 Speaker 1: where's the version of the upcork that has its electric charge? 777 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:52,640 Speaker 2: You mean the Catholics weren't like, three sounds good to me. 778 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 2: Sounds like a trinity to me. 779 00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:59,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, there are reasons. Three seems nice. But also, if 780 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:01,279 Speaker 1: you have quarks at off, it's weird to have an 781 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:04,719 Speaker 1: odd number. And so they predicted this fourth quark. They said, well, 782 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:07,160 Speaker 1: we predict there's another quark out there, and they called 783 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,120 Speaker 1: it charm. And this quark would be a heavy version 784 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:12,800 Speaker 1: of the upcork. So the way the up and the 785 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:15,440 Speaker 1: down are a pair, this quirk, the charm and the 786 00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:17,600 Speaker 1: strange would be a pair. So this pair, the charm 787 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,160 Speaker 1: and strange are like the heavy version of the up 788 00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:20,680 Speaker 1: and down. 789 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:23,920 Speaker 2: There was a fourth beetle missing. 790 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:26,680 Speaker 1: They're like, yeah, there was a fourth beetle. And this 791 00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:30,160 Speaker 1: sold some complicated theoretical problems, like people are trying to 792 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:32,640 Speaker 1: do some calculations and the calculations didn't work unless you 793 00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:35,640 Speaker 1: had this other quark also in the calculations. It was 794 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:38,160 Speaker 1: sort of the first clue that maybe the universe made 795 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:40,959 Speaker 1: more sense math if you had another one. Yes, math, 796 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:44,560 Speaker 1: And so then then people went off to look for it. 797 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:47,200 Speaker 2: So then November tenth in nineteen seventy four, people were like, 798 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:48,839 Speaker 2: didn't know what was coming. 799 00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:50,840 Speaker 1: No, So then people went off to look for it. 800 00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,120 Speaker 1: And there was a guy on my team named Sam Ting. 801 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:55,000 Speaker 1: He had an idea for how to look for it. 802 00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:58,080 Speaker 1: It was a very nice experiment, very clean. He was 803 00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:00,800 Speaker 1: shooting protons at a target and he was hoping to 804 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:04,799 Speaker 1: create essentially this quirk and it's anti cork. He was hoping, 805 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:08,080 Speaker 1: if you smash protons into this target, then occasionally you 806 00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:11,000 Speaker 1: create a charm cork and an anti charm cork into 807 00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:13,880 Speaker 1: this new particle, and then he could see that new particle. 808 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:16,799 Speaker 1: And it was a very nice experiment, except it had 809 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:19,560 Speaker 1: one weakness, which is that it was sort of slow. 810 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:22,319 Speaker 1: Like he wasn't making a lot of these every day. 811 00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:24,680 Speaker 1: It was going to take him like a year year 812 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,480 Speaker 1: and a half to get enough of these things where 813 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:28,520 Speaker 1: he could claim discovery. 814 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:31,120 Speaker 2: In partic of physics, you have to do things a lot, 815 00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,440 Speaker 2: and then from the sort of the statistics, then you say, hey, 816 00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:37,560 Speaker 2: look that bump in the data looks is probably a 817 00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:38,480 Speaker 2: particle exactly. 818 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:41,640 Speaker 1: And so he ran his experiment and he was cranking 819 00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:43,680 Speaker 1: it up, and his bump was building up and up 820 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:47,640 Speaker 1: and up and up. Now, meanwhile, on the other side 821 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:51,040 Speaker 1: of the country at Stanford, there's a guy named Bert Richter, 822 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:54,880 Speaker 1: and Bert Richter had access to a much more powerful machine. 823 00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:58,680 Speaker 1: This is a collider that would smash electrons and positrons 824 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:00,880 Speaker 1: against each other. And this this thing was capable of 825 00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,320 Speaker 1: discovering a new particle in like an hour. But the 826 00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:05,960 Speaker 1: problem was he'd have to tune it to exactly the 827 00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:08,520 Speaker 1: right energy. Like if you knew exactly the energy you 828 00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 1: needed to create this new particle and you tuned the beams, boom, 829 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:14,200 Speaker 1: you could produce like one hundred of them in an 830 00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:16,560 Speaker 1: hour and be done. But you had to know how 831 00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:18,919 Speaker 1: to tune the beams. If you didn't know where to look, 832 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:21,279 Speaker 1: it could be you know, you could be searching forever. 833 00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:23,879 Speaker 2: Like Stanford had a huge microscope, but they just didn't 834 00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:24,359 Speaker 2: know where to look. 835 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:26,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, they had a huge microscope, but they were searching 836 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:28,319 Speaker 1: a beach, right and they had to like put it here, 837 00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:30,040 Speaker 1: put it here, put it here. If they knew where 838 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:31,880 Speaker 1: to look for this new particle, they could prove it 839 00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:32,879 Speaker 1: existed right away. 840 00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:36,280 Speaker 2: Where's same thing maybe had a giant sister which was slow, 841 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:38,920 Speaker 2: but you know it would cover a wider range exactly. 842 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:41,640 Speaker 1: And so they were racing and bert Richter and his 843 00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:44,680 Speaker 1: team did these scans. They started low energies and they 844 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:47,200 Speaker 1: scanned up and they didn't see anything. And then they 845 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:49,520 Speaker 1: scanned down and they scanned back up and they didn't 846 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:52,520 Speaker 1: see anything. They didn't see anything. And meanwhile Sam Ting 847 00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:55,919 Speaker 1: is accumulating this data and he knows exactly where bert 848 00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:57,879 Speaker 1: Richter needs to look, but he doesn't want to tell 849 00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:00,720 Speaker 1: him because if bert Richter finds out this one piece 850 00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:03,799 Speaker 1: of information, then he can scoop him in just a day. 851 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:08,080 Speaker 2: So these two guys across the United States, they knew 852 00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:09,840 Speaker 2: what each of them were doing and what they could do. 853 00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:12,840 Speaker 1: They knew what the other one could do. There's a 854 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:15,919 Speaker 1: lot of controversy about exactly what they knew about each 855 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:18,919 Speaker 1: other's experiments and with the connections between them. And there's 856 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:21,600 Speaker 1: also lots of crazy stories here, like I have heard 857 00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:24,880 Speaker 1: stories that Sam Ting was so desperate to get time 858 00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:29,040 Speaker 1: to run his experiment that he actually sabotaged other experiments 859 00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:31,439 Speaker 1: that were using the same ways they had to share 860 00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:35,920 Speaker 1: time with them. And there are stories that the other 861 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:38,920 Speaker 1: experiments kept having these weird electronics problems and every time 862 00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:42,200 Speaker 1: they would come in after a night their electronics were fried. 863 00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:44,959 Speaker 1: So finally installed a video camera and they're like, what's 864 00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:48,399 Speaker 1: going on. And the story goes that Sam Ting would 865 00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:55,719 Speaker 1: come in every evening and piss on their experience. This 866 00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:58,360 Speaker 1: is the story. Their story is. There's video evidence. I 867 00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:02,000 Speaker 1: have never seen this video. This is pre internet. I 868 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:03,480 Speaker 1: do not know if this story is true. 869 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:05,560 Speaker 2: What do you smell it? When didn't they'd be able 870 00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:06,920 Speaker 2: to tell that somebody was doing this. 871 00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:09,560 Speaker 1: It's an interesting story and it actually reveals something I 872 00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:12,400 Speaker 1: think about the time because at the time, field of 873 00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:16,560 Speaker 1: particle physics was dominated by white American dudes mostly, and 874 00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:19,560 Speaker 1: Sam King is a Chinese guy. He's at MIT, but 875 00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:22,200 Speaker 1: he's sort of an outsider, and so there's you know, 876 00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:25,680 Speaker 1: maybe shades of racism in this story. It's not clear 877 00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:27,920 Speaker 1: whether this story is true, but it's a story that 878 00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:30,360 Speaker 1: exists and is out there, and it's sort of is 879 00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:34,040 Speaker 1: the flavor of the time. Because Sam Ting finally accumulated 880 00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:37,920 Speaker 1: enough data, he's planning to announce his result, he you know, 881 00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:40,480 Speaker 1: calls a press conference for the next day, and this 882 00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:45,120 Speaker 1: is like November tenth, right, and meanwhile, at Slack on 883 00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:47,840 Speaker 1: November tenth. They figure out exactly where to look. 884 00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:49,640 Speaker 2: And they figure it out, or they figured it out 885 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:50,160 Speaker 2: from Sam. 886 00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:53,040 Speaker 1: We don't know, Like there are stories that maybe there 887 00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:55,400 Speaker 1: was a leak. Sam certainly didn't tell them, but somehow 888 00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:59,279 Speaker 1: they knew exactly where it'll look. They turn, they turned 889 00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:02,520 Speaker 1: the collider. There, they ran the experiment, they got the plot, 890 00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:06,200 Speaker 1: they wrote the paper the same day. It is all 891 00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:09,040 Speaker 1: one day. Next day. They also call it press cur 892 00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:13,080 Speaker 1: at the same time now on November same time, So 893 00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:15,880 Speaker 1: you have two press conferences, two parts of the country 894 00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:19,600 Speaker 1: making announcements of the same discovery at the same moment. 895 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:21,800 Speaker 2: But Sam was in Eastern Times, so he went. 896 00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:26,840 Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know if it's down to 897 00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:27,239 Speaker 1: the minute. 898 00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:29,520 Speaker 2: That's a bit suspicious, you know, like they've been looking 899 00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,520 Speaker 2: for years and then suddenly the day before this guy's 900 00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:34,960 Speaker 2: about to go to public, they'd find the right parameters, 901 00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:35,440 Speaker 2: I know. 902 00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:37,960 Speaker 1: And so they didn't talk to each other, and so 903 00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:41,719 Speaker 1: they gave the particles different names, like Sam called it 904 00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:44,960 Speaker 1: the j particle and the guys at slack called it 905 00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:48,040 Speaker 1: the side particle this Greek letter, and so we had 906 00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:50,800 Speaker 1: the same particle discovery announced by two different groups on 907 00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:51,320 Speaker 1: the same. 908 00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:53,520 Speaker 2: Day and so and you told me they they called 909 00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:56,280 Speaker 2: the official name for this particle is the J side particle. 910 00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:59,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, we never resolved this dispute, Like people still argue 911 00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:01,239 Speaker 1: about it that there are people in the J camp, 912 00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:03,640 Speaker 1: people in the side camp, but the official name is 913 00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:06,480 Speaker 1: J SI, which is like such a cop out. 914 00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:08,040 Speaker 2: And to this day there are people bitter that it's 915 00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:10,040 Speaker 2: not called the SI slash Jar. 916 00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:12,680 Speaker 1: Probably probably, and people who think it should just be 917 00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:14,480 Speaker 1: the J particle, and people who think it should just 918 00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:15,480 Speaker 1: be the side particle. 919 00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:18,200 Speaker 2: They should just call it off and call it something totally. 920 00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:20,560 Speaker 1: But they did give them the Nobel Prize for this, 921 00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:23,400 Speaker 1: the nineteen seventy six Nobel Prize, and they shared. 922 00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:27,320 Speaker 2: It all right, So that's a good happy ending for everybody. 923 00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:28,040 Speaker 2: That we're all happy. 924 00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:30,440 Speaker 1: Probably, No, I think there's still a lot of grumpiness 925 00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:33,279 Speaker 1: in the field over this. But the end of the 926 00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:36,400 Speaker 1: story is that this is what really led people to 927 00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:39,920 Speaker 1: believe that quarks are real, because we predicted a new 928 00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:42,560 Speaker 1: one and then found it, and that told us that 929 00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:45,560 Speaker 1: quarks are not just like an idea for how to 930 00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:48,520 Speaker 1: explain all the particles we've seen so far. They really 931 00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:51,920 Speaker 1: are sort of a more basic fundamental building block of 932 00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:52,839 Speaker 1: the universe. 933 00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:54,160 Speaker 2: And they saw it on its own, or they saw 934 00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:56,640 Speaker 2: it kind of in the same way of hitting something 935 00:43:57,239 --> 00:43:58,120 Speaker 2: inside of something else. 936 00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:00,400 Speaker 1: Can't see the charm cork by itself, but they were 937 00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:03,040 Speaker 1: able to create a particle which is made of just 938 00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:05,680 Speaker 1: charm quarks. So it's a charm cork and an anti 939 00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:08,319 Speaker 1: charm cork put together. That's the jape side park. 940 00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:12,239 Speaker 2: I see see that they should just end it controversy 941 00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:15,319 Speaker 2: and not call it a name. Just call it the charm, 942 00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:18,000 Speaker 2: a charm, a particle. 943 00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:24,920 Speaker 1: Somebody else wanted to call it orthocharmonium like a real Yeah, seriously, 944 00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:26,640 Speaker 1: that was the technical proposal. 945 00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:30,480 Speaker 2: Forget it, forget it. Let's not leave us up to 946 00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:33,000 Speaker 2: physicists exactly exactly. 947 00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:35,160 Speaker 1: That's what happens when you leave it up to the physicist, right, 948 00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:35,319 Speaker 1: But I. 949 00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:36,880 Speaker 2: Guess that what you're saying is the point is that 950 00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:40,480 Speaker 2: quarks are real, and that's how they were discovered. 951 00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:43,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was a sort of slow accumulation of evidence. 952 00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:46,200 Speaker 1: People were not convinced for a while, but then seeing 953 00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:48,920 Speaker 1: them inside the proton and discovering that there was a 954 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:52,640 Speaker 1: new one, finding it actually out there in reality, like 955 00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:55,560 Speaker 1: it's real. That's really what convinced people. And since then 956 00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:57,680 Speaker 1: we've thought of quarks as real and we've gone on 957 00:44:57,800 --> 00:44:58,480 Speaker 1: to find some more. 958 00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:00,719 Speaker 2: That's right, There are now six ques, that's right. 959 00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:03,319 Speaker 1: Just after the charm quark was discovered, just a few 960 00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:05,680 Speaker 1: years later they discovered the bottom cork. That was the 961 00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:08,600 Speaker 1: fifth one. And you know, we don't like odd numbers 962 00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:10,759 Speaker 1: of quarks, and so then people thought, well, there must 963 00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:13,000 Speaker 1: be another one that goes along with the bottom cork, 964 00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:17,680 Speaker 1: and so they called it the top quark. And there 965 00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:19,960 Speaker 1: was actually competing names for those two. Also, there was 966 00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:21,799 Speaker 1: a whole camp of people who wanted to call them 967 00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:24,920 Speaker 1: the truth and beauty quarks instead of top and bottom. 968 00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:27,239 Speaker 2: Wow, even more confusing. 969 00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:31,400 Speaker 1: But the top quark took a long time to discover. 970 00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:34,080 Speaker 1: We'll do a whole podcast episode about that. They were 971 00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:36,880 Speaker 1: also dueling press conferences for that discovery. 972 00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:39,080 Speaker 2: Well, I guess you know, there's all sort of points 973 00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:42,080 Speaker 2: to how science is made. You know, first it starts 974 00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:46,120 Speaker 2: off with just looking at what's out there, and then 975 00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:49,000 Speaker 2: people reading these papers and thinking about what it could be, 976 00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:52,080 Speaker 2: and then it involves then more people then taking those 977 00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:53,520 Speaker 2: ideas and proving them right. 978 00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:55,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's it's a wonderful process. And I 979 00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:58,200 Speaker 1: love how you can sort of see that happen many 980 00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:01,720 Speaker 1: times in science. You go from like all the stuff 981 00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:04,400 Speaker 1: around us to the periodic table, and then from the 982 00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:08,719 Speaker 1: periodic table down to protons, neutrons and electrons, and then 983 00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:10,920 Speaker 1: you know, you get an idea that there are other 984 00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:13,759 Speaker 1: particles out there, and then you boil that list down 985 00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:17,800 Speaker 1: to basic quarks and the hope is right. The idea 986 00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:20,080 Speaker 1: is that maybe we can do that again. And now 987 00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:23,160 Speaker 1: we have this new list of particles, all these quarks 988 00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:25,960 Speaker 1: and all these leptons. We don't understand what the patterns 989 00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:28,640 Speaker 1: are there. We don't understand, you know, why we have 990 00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:31,600 Speaker 1: all of them. We're sort of at the new particle Zoo. 991 00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:35,000 Speaker 1: It's like the quark and lepton zoo. We don't understand it, 992 00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:38,200 Speaker 1: and we're looking for that new idea, the one that 993 00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:41,200 Speaker 1: will maybe explain how these particles are made out of 994 00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:43,360 Speaker 1: even smaller ones and they have. 995 00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:46,879 Speaker 2: To subsuit the mini and farm. 996 00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:49,280 Speaker 1: Maybe aces will come back. 997 00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:51,480 Speaker 2: Right, I guess, but we should probably come deuces now 998 00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:53,520 Speaker 2: they're smaller. 999 00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:56,480 Speaker 1: I think that has another meaning. Maybe we should avoid 1000 00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:58,520 Speaker 1: I don't think I want to drop a duce some particle. 1001 00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:02,560 Speaker 2: Physicians, but you could. If you're the discoverer, you get 1002 00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:03,080 Speaker 2: to name it. 1003 00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:07,759 Speaker 1: Tell me about your deepest scientific goals. Well, I want 1004 00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:09,120 Speaker 1: to drop a deuce on the field. 1005 00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:10,960 Speaker 2: I want to call it the poop particle. 1006 00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:14,760 Speaker 1: Then I could finally align my research with my wife's research. 1007 00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:19,000 Speaker 2: There you go, all right, family, whites and unity, that's 1008 00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:20,160 Speaker 2: what size it's all about. 1009 00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:22,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, but you know we're far from that. We don't 1010 00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:26,000 Speaker 1: have any ideas for what could be underlying the quarks. 1011 00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:30,440 Speaker 1: We don't know your question earlier. Are electrons also made 1012 00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:32,239 Speaker 1: out of smaller things? We know they're not made out 1013 00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:34,200 Speaker 1: of quarks. We don't know why. We don't know any 1014 00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:37,320 Speaker 1: connections are. The One thing we do know is that 1015 00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:39,800 Speaker 1: there are not more quarks out there. Really know that 1016 00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:41,960 Speaker 1: there are six. And that's it. That's it, that's it, 1017 00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:44,239 Speaker 1: that's the end of the story. We don't know why six, 1018 00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:45,279 Speaker 1: you're for sure? 1019 00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:48,280 Speaker 2: For real? For sure for real because more would violate 1020 00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:50,719 Speaker 2: the loss of physics or what Because we have ways. 1021 00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:54,399 Speaker 1: To tell how many quarks there are, and that's from 1022 00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:57,360 Speaker 1: how they talk to the Higgs boson. Interesting because the 1023 00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:00,439 Speaker 1: Higgs boson talks to all the particles that have mass. 1024 00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:03,520 Speaker 1: So if there were more quarks and there are no 1025 00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:05,960 Speaker 1: more ways to talk to the Higgs boson, well, if 1026 00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:08,320 Speaker 1: there were more quarks, we would be making the Higgs 1027 00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:11,640 Speaker 1: boson more often at colliders. So by the rate at 1028 00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:14,120 Speaker 1: which we make Higgs bosons, how often we make one, 1029 00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:16,640 Speaker 1: we can tell how many quarks there are out there. 1030 00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:18,560 Speaker 1: It's a really powerful subtle argument. 1031 00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:21,120 Speaker 2: Well, you know, I wouldn't put it past nature to 1032 00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:23,000 Speaker 2: still have an ace. 1033 00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:26,600 Speaker 1: Obviously, maybe nature will drop a deuce on the field. 1034 00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:30,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, we'll poop all over your theories as usual. 1035 00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:34,120 Speaker 2: All right, Well, that was a pretty interesting history, and 1036 00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:36,120 Speaker 2: it's so exciting to put your head in the minds 1037 00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:39,040 Speaker 2: of these scientists who were at the forefront, staring at 1038 00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:41,600 Speaker 2: the big unknown and trying to make sense of all 1039 00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:43,040 Speaker 2: the weird things that we find in nature. 1040 00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:45,600 Speaker 1: That's right, and what seems obvious to us now was 1041 00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:48,640 Speaker 1: confusing and bewildering at the time. And there were lots 1042 00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:51,680 Speaker 1: of other explanations and competing ideas that we now no 1043 00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:55,600 Speaker 1: longer recall. And so while history seems like a linear story, 1044 00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:58,400 Speaker 1: there are lots of twists and turns and false starts. 1045 00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:01,880 Speaker 1: Even inside so quarks and lots of aces and. 1046 00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:05,960 Speaker 2: All right, well, thank you for joining us, see you 1047 00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:06,520 Speaker 2: next time. 1048 00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:16,640 Speaker 1: Thanks for tuning in. If you still have a question 1049 00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:20,160 Speaker 1: after listening to all these explanations, please drop us a line. 1050 00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:22,360 Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from you. You can find us 1051 00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:26,160 Speaker 1: at Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at Daniel and Jorge that's 1052 00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:30,600 Speaker 1: one word, or email us at Feedback at Danielandhorge dot com. 1053 00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:34,000 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, and remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain 1054 00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:38,040 Speaker 1: the Universe is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts 1055 00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:42,640 Speaker 1: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 1056 00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:54,719 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows. When you pop a 1057 00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:57,000 Speaker 1: piece of cheese into your mouth, you're probably not thinking 1058 00:49:57,080 --> 00:49:59,919 Speaker 1: about the environmental impact. But the people in the dairy 1059 00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:03,120 Speaker 1: industry are. That's why they're working hard every day to 1060 00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:06,200 Speaker 1: find new ways to reduce waste, conserve natural resources, and 1061 00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:10,160 Speaker 1: drive down greenhouse gas emissions. How is us dairy tackling 1062 00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:13,960 Speaker 1: greenhouse gases? Many farms use anaerobic digestors to turn the 1063 00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:18,240 Speaker 1: methane from maneure into renewable energy that can power farms, towns, 1064 00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:21,719 Speaker 1: and electric cars. Visit you as dairy dot COM's last 1065 00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:23,280 Speaker 1: sustainability To learn. 1066 00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:27,560 Speaker 3: More, Hi, I'm David Eagleman from the podcast Inner Cosmos, 1067 00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:29,799 Speaker 3: which recently hit the number one science. 1068 00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:30,600 Speaker 1: Podcast in America. 1069 00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:33,880 Speaker 3: I mean neuroscientists at Stanford and I've spent my career 1070 00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:36,880 Speaker 3: exploring the three pound universe in our heads. 1071 00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:40,280 Speaker 1: Join me weekly to explore the relationship. 1072 00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:42,560 Speaker 3: Between your brain and your life, because the more we 1073 00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:44,920 Speaker 3: know about what's running under the hood. 1074 00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:48,200 Speaker 2: That or we can steer our lives. Listen to Inner. 1075 00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:51,799 Speaker 3: Cosmos with Savid Eagleman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, 1076 00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:53,640 Speaker 3: or wherever you get your podcasts. 1077 00:50:54,239 --> 00:50:57,600 Speaker 1: Parents looking for a screen free, fun and engaging way 1078 00:50:57,640 --> 00:50:59,640 Speaker 1: to teach your kids the Bible. As a mom, I 1079 00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:02,880 Speaker 1: was looking for the same thing, so I created Kids' 1080 00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:06,120 Speaker 1: Bible Stories podcast. Thousands of families are raving about it, 1081 00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:10,640 Speaker 1: and kids actually request to listen. With captivating sound effects, voices, 1082 00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:13,680 Speaker 1: and an apply section at the end to spark meaningful conversations, 1083 00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:16,200 Speaker 1: It's a hit with both kids and parents. 1084 00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:19,520 Speaker 5: Listen to Kids Bible storye podcast on the iHeartRadio app, 1085 00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:22,279 Speaker 5: Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.