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Speaker 1: Hello friends. One of my favorite parts of co hosting

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Speaker 1: this podcast with Daniel is that it's given me the

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Speaker 1: chance to meet and interact with a bunch of you.

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Speaker 1: I've really enjoyed learning about your backgrounds, your interests, and

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Speaker 1: some of you have cracked me up in some of

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Speaker 1: the emails. You're a funny bunch, and in particular, I

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Speaker 1: love getting your questions. Y'all ask some incredible questions and

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Speaker 1: often there are questions I had never thought about before,

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Speaker 1: and Daniel and I love that we get to find

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Speaker 1: answers to questions that keep you up at night. So

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Speaker 1: today Daniel and I are going to tackle three questions

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Speaker 1: that we've received from listeners. And we take the responsibility

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Speaker 1: of finding answers to your questions quite seriously. So after

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Speaker 1: we have an answer to these questions recorded, we check

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Speaker 1: back with the listeners to see how we did with

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Speaker 1: the answers. Essentially, we let you all grade us, and

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Speaker 1: if we fail to give a clear answer, we're gonna

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Speaker 1: try again, and in this way you all can help

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Speaker 1: us learn how to explain things even more clearly. So

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Speaker 1: thank you. If you want to send us a question,

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Speaker 1: you can either join us on our discord channel or

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Speaker 1: you can send us an email at questions at Daniel

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Speaker 1: and Kelly dot org. We hope to hear from you,

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Speaker 1: and welcome to Daniel and Kelly's extraordinary universe.

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Speaker 2: I'm Daniel, I'm the particle physicist, and I love getting

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Speaker 2: your questions.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kelly Wienersmith. I study parasites, and as you already

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Speaker 1: know from the opening, I love getting your questions too.

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Speaker 2: Do your kids ask you science questions you can't answer? Kelly?

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, So my daughter asked me a good science

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Speaker 1: question that I sent to you the other day, so

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Speaker 1: I know the right people. And every once in a

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Speaker 1: while she will ask a question that's like at a

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Speaker 1: very deep level of why, and I won't know the

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Speaker 1: answer and she'll stump me sometimes. But she also doesn't

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Speaker 1: like talking to me about biology too much because she knows,

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Speaker 1: which is such a bummer. But uh, is that.

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Speaker 2: Because your answers are too long? Is that why?

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Speaker 1: That's exactly why it is. That's exact exactly why we

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Speaker 1: have Yeah, oh yeah. Do your kids ask you questions

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Speaker 1: you can't answer?

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Speaker 2: They do sometimes ask me questions I can't answer, but

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Speaker 2: they always stopped me after a few sentences and Hazel's

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Speaker 2: favorite line is like, I didn't ask for a college lecture.

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Speaker 1: I mean, your dad's a college professor. That's what you're

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Speaker 1: going to get.

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Speaker 2: And your mom too, Yeah, that's right, what do you expect?

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Speaker 2: But it's fun. I love their questions, and I love

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Speaker 2: the challenge of trying to answer it within that teenager

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Speaker 2: attention span of like six seconds.

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Speaker 1: It certainly forces you to be succinct and clear. It's good,

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Speaker 1: it's good fortice, yes exactly, but it's not naturally how

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Speaker 1: I roll. But that's okay because with at least twenty

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Speaker 1: minutes to answer each one of these questions, so we

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Speaker 1: can go ahead and get into a nice bit of detail.

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Speaker 1: Our first question is you know exactly the kinds of

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Speaker 1: amazing questions that I hadn't thought of ahead of time,

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Speaker 1: but I love getting a chance to think about. So

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Speaker 1: the first one is about you know, soil on Mars

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Speaker 1: and what makes soil? And I just thought this was

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Speaker 1: such a fantastic question, but I didn't know the answer.

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Speaker 1: And so it's also a great chance to bring a

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Speaker 1: friend on the show.

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Speaker 2: Hello, Daniel and Kelly.

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Speaker 3: After two Mars episodes, a question or two popped in

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Speaker 3: my brain Mars does not have soil now, but if

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Speaker 3: that was live a long time ago on Mars, could

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Speaker 3: there be soiled deeper down in the ground. Also, if

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Speaker 3: they used to be like on Mars, could that have

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Speaker 3: created oil deep on the ground. Can single cells produce

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Speaker 3: oil or do we need at least bigger life than that?

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Speaker 3: Thank you for the podcast, Kind to your guards.

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Speaker 1: Yost Okay, So this sounds like a geology question, and

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Speaker 1: lucky for me, I have a geology friend. He was

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Speaker 1: my poraranteine buddy in the pandemic. So we're bringing onto

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Speaker 1: the show Callen Bentley, who's an associate professor of geology

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Speaker 1: at Piedmont Virginia Community College and he's co author of

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Speaker 1: the free online textbook Historical Geology. Callen, what's up?

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Speaker 4: Hey, thanks for having me. I'm glad to be here.

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Speaker 1: We're happy to have you here. So I read this

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Speaker 1: question and I remembered that I had a conversation with

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Speaker 1: you once about what's the difference between regolith and soil?

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Speaker 1: And I think I remember you just sighed and walked

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Speaker 1: away or something. It was something like my sense was that, oh,

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Speaker 1: these it's just jargon, But so what can you tell

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Speaker 1: me what is the difference between soil and just dirt

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Speaker 1: and regolith.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so dirt doesn't really have a scientific meaning, but

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Speaker 4: regolith does and soil does. And the difference between them

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Speaker 4: is that soil has organic matter in it, which we

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Speaker 4: call humous here on this planet, not to.

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Speaker 2: Be confused with the delicious dip with the heeny in it.

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Speaker 4: That's right, That is hummus, and there is a difference

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Speaker 4: of one m here on Earth. Humus gets added from

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Speaker 4: the top. So basically, like this time of year, the

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Speaker 4: leaves are dropping off of many of the trees in

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Speaker 4: the northern hemisphere, and that's basically a rich source of

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Speaker 4: organic matter and that drops onto the soil and those

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Speaker 4: leaves fall apart or they get tugged underground by earthworms

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Speaker 4: and basically get mixed in with the rock, fragments and

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Speaker 4: mineral grains that make up the other sort of solid

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Speaker 4: bulk of the soil. It's important to realize that soil

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Speaker 4: actually consists of, you know, solid stuff, but also a

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Speaker 4: lot of empty space which can be filled with either

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Speaker 4: air or water depending on whether you're in a drought

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Speaker 4: or it rained recently, or how deep you are on

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Speaker 4: the soil. So you know, if you went and looked

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Speaker 4: at the Apollo astronauts' footprints on the Moon, those are

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Speaker 4: in regolith because there's no organic matter on the Moon.

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Speaker 4: We don't know about, you know, sort of thet of

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Speaker 4: Mars as well as we know about the Moon, because

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Speaker 4: we haven't been there and picked up samples and you

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Speaker 4: know it brought them back, and you know, we've done

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Speaker 4: a few sort of remote experiments. But the sort of

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Speaker 4: mechanism of folding organic material into the you know, putative

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Speaker 4: Martian soil would seem to be lacking and so at

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Speaker 4: least in the present day now if it existed in

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Speaker 4: the past. You know, that's I suppose a possibility if

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Speaker 4: Mars had a thicker atmosphere in the past and a

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Speaker 4: more pronounced greenhouse effect, you know, perhaps there was life

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Speaker 4: there in the terrestrial realm at that time that could

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Speaker 4: produce organic material and add it to the regulith and

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Speaker 4: turn it into soil. And it is indeed possible, as

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Speaker 4: the listener asks, that those old soils could be buried

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Speaker 4: under subsequent sedimentary layers, perhaps with zero organic content. We

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Speaker 4: have examples of buried soils here on Earth. We call

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Speaker 4: them paleo sols, and there are a lot of examples

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Speaker 4: of them. They have various characteristics that are signatures of

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Speaker 4: the conditions under which they formed, just like sedimentary rocks

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Speaker 4: contain signatures of the circumstances under which the sediments accumulated.

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Speaker 2: Do you make soil in the surface and then it

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Speaker 2: can get buried And so you're saying, if you had

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Speaker 2: life a long time ago, you would have made soil,

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Speaker 2: and then life all died out, you continue to make layers,

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Speaker 2: and that buries the old soil into is that paleosoil.

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Speaker 4: Paleo soal? So they drop the eye. Yeah, soils are

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Speaker 4: a little bit weird. They call the soils themselves by

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Speaker 4: these names that all end in sols, like arit asols

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Speaker 4: and gelisols, and I don't know a bunch of them.

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Speaker 4: Soil scientists are really into classifying things. They've like organized

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Speaker 4: all of the planet Earth's soils into like nineteen thousand

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Speaker 4: soil orders or soil series, and then those are grouped

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Speaker 4: into like a dozen or maybe fourteen soil orders. Honestly,

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Speaker 4: it's not my area of expertise. The main thing that

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Speaker 4: seems to be a driver for my sort of basic

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Speaker 4: level understanding is that the climate really controls what sort

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Speaker 4: of soil you get in a given area. So soils

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Speaker 4: and deserts tend to be really jacked up in terms

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Speaker 4: of their evaporate mineral content because water gets wicked through them,

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Speaker 4: carrying material in solution, and then that gets precipitated as

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Speaker 4: the water goes into the atmosphere, So they tend to

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Speaker 4: be very hard and calcareous. Soils in the tropics tend

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Speaker 4: to be really clay rich because the most common mineral

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Speaker 4: in the crust of the planet, feltzbar rots underwarm, wet

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Speaker 4: conditions and it makes clay, so you get these bright

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Speaker 4: red iron oxide stained clay rich tropical soils.

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Speaker 1: So Mars has red soils like that. Is there any

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Speaker 1: similarity there or am I just reach in.

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Speaker 4: There's definitely oxidized iron in the what I would call

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Speaker 4: regolith and sedimentary rocks of Mars. So yeah, that's a

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Speaker 4: similarity that the iron there reacted with oxygen. And under

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Speaker 4: what circumstances that occurred. I couldn't tell you whether that

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Speaker 4: was in the open air, you know, whether it was submarine,

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Speaker 4: or whether it was you know, in a fresh water system,

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Speaker 4: or whether it was underground due to ground water. You know,

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Speaker 4: there's a lot of possibilities there.

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Speaker 2: How much do we know about the surface of Mars.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I know we've had rovers there for decades

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Speaker 2: and they like pick up rocks and they drill into them.

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Speaker 2: But half far like down, have we dug into Mars?

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Speaker 4: Not far? Yeah, there was an attempt a few years

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Speaker 4: back to you know, basically drill the deepest hole yet

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Speaker 4: dug on Mars in the service of installing a seismometer

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Speaker 4: so we could listen for marsquakes.

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Speaker 2: Love that word marsquakes.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And I don't think it got very far. I

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Speaker 4: think it got stuck, and so it was sort of

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Speaker 4: an abortive kind of thing. Kelly's nodding, so maybe she's

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Speaker 4: more familiar with the history of that.

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Speaker 1: I think it was more than one problem one. I

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Speaker 1: think things were more compact than they had expected them

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Speaker 1: to be, so it's harder to get through. And then

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Speaker 1: also it was having trouble gripping and staying in one spot.

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Speaker 1: It got only a fraction of the goal of the

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Speaker 1: depth that it was shooting for. It's just hard to

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Speaker 1: work in space.

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Speaker 2: My Wikipedia research tells me that the deepest hole on

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Speaker 2: Mars is nine and millimeters deep, which is not very impressive.

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Speaker 1: Oh man, So if there's soul on Mars, probably it's

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Speaker 1: just bacteria. Uh that that's adding the like lify component

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Speaker 1: to it. Is there anywhere? There's probably nowhere on Earth

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Speaker 1: where it would be just like that. Probably anywhere else

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Speaker 1: you'd also find like nematods and stuff.

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Speaker 4: Well, yeah, not anymore. There certainly would have been paleo

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Speaker 4: environments on Earth when it would have just been microbial,

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Speaker 4: and those would have lasted for a very long time

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Speaker 4: for you know, the first several billion years of Earth history.

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Speaker 4: You know, some of those microbes would be prokaryotic of course,

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Speaker 4: and then eventually you carry out show up as well.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, probably it would be unicellular, if anything big

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Speaker 4: If could.

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Speaker 1: Having just unicellular organisms result in oil? Or do you

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Speaker 1: need bigger stuff to get oil?

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Speaker 4: Oh wait, wait, we're going into oil now. I thought

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Speaker 4: we were talking about soil. So have we dropped the.

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Speaker 2: S You dropped the eye and went to soils, and

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Speaker 2: now we're going to drop the S and good oils?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, So with with oil the story is a

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Speaker 4: little different. It's a little more complicated. So when I

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Speaker 4: think of soils, I am thinking of terrestrial regalith with

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Speaker 4: organic material being added from the top and then gradually

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Speaker 4: getting mixed in, but the organic content would decrease the

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Speaker 4: deeper you.

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Speaker 2: Go, Holnd did just say terrestrial regolith? That means on Earth?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you so much for asking that clarifying question

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Speaker 4: about the words I'm using. What I meant was not underwater,

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Speaker 4: not in the ocean, So I meant on the land,

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Speaker 4: all right. So you know, my default setting would not

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Speaker 4: be to call marine sediments by the name soil. I

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Speaker 4: would call them sediments, and they might have a high

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Speaker 4: organic content or they might not. But that is not

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Speaker 4: what I'm saying when I'm talking about soil. So I'm

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Speaker 4: talking about land based settings. So that's what I mean

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Speaker 4: by terrestrial.

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Speaker 1: But you said terrestrial realith. You use the R word.

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Speaker 4: Originally it would have been regalith, right, and then eventually,

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Speaker 4: sometime in Earth history it started becoming soil through the

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Speaker 4: addition of this magical ingredient of humans.

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Speaker 1: This cleared up an argument Daniel and I had.

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Speaker 2: In the past.

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Speaker 1: Thank you.

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Speaker 2: It turns out you turn regolith into soil just by

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Speaker 2: adding hummus or hemus.

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Speaker 4: You could add, yes, you could do the job with

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Speaker 4: hummus or other forms of humous.

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Speaker 2: Bhemi is like magic, really, it sort of life giving.

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Speaker 4: The scientific community argues at meetings like a geological meetings

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Speaker 4: like the Geological Society of America. There are periodically sessions

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Speaker 4: about the terrestrial biosphere during the Cambrian and what they're

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Speaker 4: not saying there is the biosphere on Earth. They're talking

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Speaker 4: about the biosphere on land. So we have a much

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Speaker 4: better geologic record about what was happening in the oceans

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Speaker 4: because that's a place where sediments tend to get deposited

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Speaker 4: and tend not to get eroded, whereas the land is

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Speaker 4: a place where sediments tend to get eroded and tend

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Speaker 4: not to get deposited, at least in the long term sense.

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Speaker 4: We do have terrestrial here again, I mean land deposits

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Speaker 4: of sedimentary rocks, but they are far less common, fewer,

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Speaker 4: and further between than marine eediments.

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Speaker 1: We were going to get back to oils, So.

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Speaker 4: That's basically what I was saying for soils, Okay, And yeah,

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Speaker 4: basically we don't know when the humans started getting added.

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Speaker 4: People argue about that, and they look at various you know, biotracers,

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Speaker 4: geochemical signals, things, like that. As far as oil, oil

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Speaker 4: is a liquid hydrocarbon cocktail that is formed due to

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Speaker 4: cooking algae, cooking phytoplankton. All right, so I'm using algae

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Speaker 4: here in the most inclusive sense. But basically, you know

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Speaker 4: phytoplankton photosynthesizing in the upper sunlit portions of bodies of water,

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Speaker 4: usually the ocean, but potentially also you know large lakes

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Speaker 4: and things like that. They capture energy from the sun

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Speaker 4: doing photosynthesis, they lock that up in their organic molecules.

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Speaker 4: Then they kick the bucket and they die, and if

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Speaker 4: they avoid getting eaten, then they fall down and their

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Speaker 4: little dead bodies accumulate on the bottom of that body

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Speaker 4: of water. They are likely to accumulate there if there's

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Speaker 4: not a lot of things that are grazing them trying

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Speaker 4: to eat them, and oxygen levels are relatively low. So

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Speaker 4: if you bury this organic rich stuff and you warm

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Speaker 4: it up, then you can cause chemical reactions to take

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Speaker 4: place that produce the stuff that we call oil and

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Speaker 4: the stuff that we call natural gas, which again is

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Speaker 4: a cocktail of a bunch of different ingredients. Button in

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Speaker 4: the case of natural gas, they are in the gas state,

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Speaker 4: not in the liquid state, So with accumulating that phytoplankton

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Speaker 4: here on Earth. You know, there's certain conditions that we

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Speaker 4: need to kind of go through to get that stuff

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Speaker 4: and get it down to the bottom of the ocean,

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Speaker 4: and then it has to be buried, and then it

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Speaker 4: has to warm up to the right temperature. So before

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Speaker 4: we started our podcast today, I made a cup of coffee,

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Speaker 4: and that's about the right temperature that you need to

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Speaker 4: warm up your dead phytoplankton in order to get them

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Speaker 4: to produce oil. If you don't heat them up enough,

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Speaker 4: they don't make the oil. And if you heat them

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Speaker 4: up too much, it basically it reacts away and makes

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Speaker 4: other compounds that are not capable of flowing and being

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Speaker 4: pumped out of the ground. So the happy place for

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Speaker 4: oil production is around one hundred degrees celsius. Okay, the

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Speaker 4: temperature of an espresso.

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Speaker 2: This sounds kind of complicated and not so easy to arrange.

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Speaker 2: How is it that we have so much oil on Earth?

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Speaker 4: Well, we would have more if it wasn't sidaran complicated,

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Speaker 4: and you know, we have some, but we don't have

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Speaker 4: an infinite amount. So it's these circumstances might sound really

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Speaker 4: far fetched and unlikely to occur, but they have occurred,

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Speaker 4: and if they hadn't, you know, we would probably be

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Speaker 4: living very very different lives.

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Speaker 1: So Mars used to be warmer because it had flowing

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Speaker 1: water at one point was it that warm.

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Speaker 4: So what I am talking about is not the temperature

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Speaker 4: at the surface. And if if the temperature at the

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Speaker 4: surface was one hundred degrees c, you wouldn't have flowing water,

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Speaker 4: you'd have you know, water vapor right or you know,

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Speaker 4: the transition between those. What I'm talking about is burial conditions.

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Speaker 4: So deep in the earth, and you know, there's usually

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Speaker 4: some amount of overburden, some amount of pressure of overlying

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Speaker 4: sedimentary layers weighing down on this sort of pressure cooker

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Speaker 4: where these phytoplankton are getting simmered, and that's the right

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Speaker 4: condition to produce the oil. Then if that is up

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Speaker 4: near the surface of the earth, you're on Earth. If

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Speaker 4: it flows out at the surface, then a couple of

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Speaker 4: things happen. One is it can devolatilize, and so that

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Speaker 4: will release the stuff that kind of keeps it low viscosity,

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Speaker 4: and it tends to get more gooey and sticky and

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Speaker 4: tar like at that point, and ultimately the high levels

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Speaker 4: of oxygen in ER's atmosphere will react with those leaking

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Speaker 4: petroleum deposits on the surface, and ultimately, you know, they

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Speaker 4: will release their energy through reaction with oxygen, but in

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Speaker 4: a way that's not conducive to humans capturing that energy

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Speaker 4: and putting it to work. So there are places where

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Speaker 4: that occurs, and you you know probably have heard of

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Speaker 4: the LaBrea tar pits or the beaches at Carbon Drhea

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Speaker 4: in California. Those are places where petroleum is actively leaking

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Speaker 4: out onto Earth's surface naturally, all right, But in order

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Speaker 4: to utilize oil, what we do is we try and

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Speaker 4: find places where that hasn't occurred, but where it has

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Speaker 4: pooled in the subsurface. So, Daniel, if you thought it

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Speaker 4: was complicated before, there's actually another step, which is that

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Speaker 4: we need to take the oil out of these nice,

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Speaker 4: warm source rocks and then move it into some place

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Speaker 4: where it will pull in an accessible sort of setting.

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Speaker 4: And so you know, ideally that would be some sort

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Speaker 4: of subterranean trap. We call them, and one of the

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Speaker 4: most common ones is a fold in the rock layers

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Speaker 4: that goes up in the middle. It's so called anticline.

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Speaker 4: And if you have a sort of sandwich of less

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Speaker 4: permeable and more permeable and less permeable rock layers such

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Speaker 4: as shale sandstone shale. Then that provides a nice little

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Speaker 4: and then you fold it into like a rainbow shape.

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Speaker 4: The sandstone can soak up lots boil and natural gas,

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Speaker 4: and the shale basically keeps it from leaving that arch. So,

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Speaker 4: because oil is less dense than water, it rises to

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Speaker 4: the top of the arch, but then it can't rise

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Speaker 4: any higher. The overlying shale acts as like a ceiling

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Speaker 4: and keeps it from escaping.

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Speaker 2: This is like a geological Rube Goldberg machine.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, man, it is. And so people have tried to

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Speaker 4: shortcut this, you know in some places where they've you know,

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Speaker 4: said like, hey, we've got these tarsands up in northern Alberta.

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Speaker 4: They're full of petroleum, but it hasn't yet escaped the

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Speaker 4: source rock. But we can make it escape by grinding

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Speaker 4: up those things and then boiling them essentially, and then

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Speaker 4: we can let the oil out and then we can

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Speaker 4: burn the oil. But that takes a lot more energy investment,

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Speaker 4: and so that really only becomes viable economically if oil

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Speaker 4: prices are really high, like higher than one hundred and

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Speaker 4: fifty dollars a parel.

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Speaker 1: So I bet they'd really like to have oil on

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Speaker 1: Mars though, And if you're already spending all that money

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Speaker 1: to get to Mars, maybe you're willing to spend as

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Speaker 1: much as it takes to get the oil out. Is

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Speaker 1: it in difficult places or does Mars just not have

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Speaker 1: the right conditions?

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Speaker 4: I mean, I think Mars does not have the right

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Speaker 4: condition So if we think about the various things that

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Speaker 4: are necessary, like, did Mars have oceans in the past, Yeah,

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Speaker 4: maybe probably? Did those have life in them? That seems

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Speaker 4: like it's a little less likely. Did Mars have a

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Speaker 4: sufficiently active surface environment to bury sediments? You know, enough

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Speaker 4: subsidence in these areas where you'd get organic sediments buried.

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Speaker 4: Mars certainly doesn't have plate tectonics, which is what crumples

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Speaker 4: those sedimentary layers up into those folds that concentrate the oil.

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Speaker 4: But maybe there would be some other equivalent trap on Mars.

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Speaker 4: It does seem like though each of these things is

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Speaker 4: far less likely on a planet like Mars than it

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Speaker 4: is on a planet like Earth.

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Speaker 2: How likely do you think it is? In general? We

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Speaker 2: took a random planet and I said, there are oceans

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Speaker 2: and there was microbial life. What are the chances that

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Speaker 2: it has oil on it? Are we talking like one

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Speaker 2: in two one in two million?

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Speaker 4: Insufficient data, Daniel, insufficient data. So we do not know

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Speaker 4: that the parameters of these different exoplanets. But like one

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Speaker 4: of the things that's necessary here on Earth to bury

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Speaker 4: the phytoplankton in their little graveyard at the bottom of

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Speaker 4: the sea is you need to have something to bury

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Speaker 4: them with, right, so you need to have sediments. Well

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Speaker 4: where are those sediments coming from. They're coming from terrestrial

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Speaker 4: and again I mean land source areas here where rocks

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Speaker 4: are being weathered and they're shedding off particles big and small.

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Speaker 4: But if you have a planet that's completely aqueous, where

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Speaker 4: it's it's got no land, then what is going to

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Speaker 4: bury those things in the first place? There's no source

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Speaker 4: for sediments other than like chemical precipitates from the ocean itself.

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Speaker 4: So there's no way I could put a number on

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Speaker 4: how likely it would be. I appreciate the question, it's

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Speaker 4: worth articulating, but I cannot answer that.

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Speaker 1: We have focused on single cell organisms because we got

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Speaker 1: this great question that focused on single celled organisms on Earth.

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Speaker 1: Is all of our oil from algae or is it

401
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Speaker 1: also from like dinosaurs and stuff, because that would be cooler.

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Speaker 4: Okay, so it's not from dinosaurs and stuff. So dinosaurs

403
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Speaker 4: and stuff are terrestrial organisms. They live on the land,

404
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Speaker 4: they wander around on the land. When they die, they're

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Speaker 4: very unlikely to be preserved in the fossil record. You know,

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Speaker 4: we are very attracted to dinosaurs, we go to museums

407
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Speaker 4: to see their fossil remains. But the reality is that

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Speaker 4: they are far, far, far far less common than marine organisms,

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Speaker 4: particularly marine invertebrates. So the fossil record is strongly biased

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Speaker 4: towards things that live in the ocean, things that don't

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Speaker 4: have backbones, things that lived a long time ago, like

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Speaker 4: during the Paleozoic, Dinosaurs, you know, were limited to a

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Speaker 4: relatively brief window of geologic time. And also the fossil

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Speaker 4: record is biased towards things that have hard parts, such

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Speaker 4: as bones or shells or teeth. Dinosaurs do have bones,

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Speaker 4: of course, but you know, three of those four are

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Speaker 4: kind of stocked against dinosaurs basically entering the fossil record

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Speaker 4: in the first place. Usually when a dinosaur dies, it's

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Speaker 4: flesh rots away because it's out here in the open

420
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Speaker 4: atmosphere where there's lots of oxygen that wants to react

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Speaker 4: with all the carbon in its body. And that's if

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Speaker 4: it doesn't get eaten or scavenge. Right, So what we

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Speaker 4: really want is circumstances where you know a dinosaur, maybe

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Speaker 4: you know, dyed, bloated with gas, a flood washed it

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Speaker 4: out to sea, then out at sea it popped, and

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Speaker 4: then its skeleton and its remains could join the oil

427
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Speaker 4: forming process. But that is really unlikely because that's not

428
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Speaker 4: its natural habitat. No, it's not dinosaurs. But basically it's

429
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Speaker 4: anything organic that could enter these low oxygen settings where

430
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Speaker 4: sediments will then bury them and they'll get warmed up

431
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Speaker 4: to the right temperature. Let me maybe at this point

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Speaker 4: invoke an organism that you may have heard of or

433
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Speaker 4: may not have, the conodont. Do you guys know what

434
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:51,480
Speaker 4: connodants are?

435
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:51,920
Speaker 1: No?

436
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:55,280
Speaker 4: Okay, So for a very long time, geologists are trying

437
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,879
Speaker 4: to figure out how old sedimentary layers are, and we

438
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,800
Speaker 4: figured out that the fossils in those sedimentary layers change

439
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:06,119
Speaker 4: through time. So for instance, you find dinosaurs in some layers,

440
00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:10,320
Speaker 4: you find trilobites in other layers, you find woldy mammoths

441
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:14,200
Speaker 4: in other layers still, right, So there is a time

442
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:18,280
Speaker 4: progression to the geologic record where the fossils change in

443
00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:21,320
Speaker 4: a regular and predictable way. This is awesome on many levels.

444
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:24,640
Speaker 4: It's a record of past biological evolution on our planet.

445
00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:27,840
Speaker 4: But it also is kind of a tool for figuring

446
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:31,720
Speaker 4: out how old the sedimentary layers are, and when coupled

447
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,879
Speaker 4: with other tools such as isotopic dating, say, have a

448
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:38,879
Speaker 4: granite dike that cuts across a trilobyte bearing shale. You

449
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:42,000
Speaker 4: can then figure out, by dating the dike how old

450
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,160
Speaker 4: the shale must be. The shale must be older than

451
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,320
Speaker 4: this igneous rock that cuts across it. So we've been

452
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:52,560
Speaker 4: using this principle of relative dating by fossil succession for

453
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,480
Speaker 4: centuries now to figure out how old sedimentary rocks are.

454
00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:59,240
Speaker 4: Leonardo da Vinci even practice this all right. So these

455
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:04,359
Speaker 4: fossils are most useful when they are distinct and recognizable,

456
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,679
Speaker 4: when they're very cosmopolitan and widespread all over the planet,

457
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 4: not limited to some particular habitat or land mass or

458
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,800
Speaker 4: island or whatever, And when they are limited to a

459
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:18,480
Speaker 4: brief period of geologic time. So those three characteristics make

460
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:22,159
Speaker 4: for a good index fossil. Cockroaches are lousy index fossils

461
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 4: because they've been around for hundreds of millions of years.

462
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:27,359
Speaker 4: So you find a rock with the cockroach in no

463
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,119
Speaker 4: big deal. It doesn't really tell you that much. But

464
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 4: connidants are powerful index fossils. So they are these little

465
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 4: things shaped kind of like teeth or spike balls, or

466
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 4: they look like sort of sadistic ice skates or something

467
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:48,680
Speaker 4: like that. They are made out of a mineral complex

468
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:52,359
Speaker 4: called hydroxyl appetite, and they're found in sedimentary rocks the

469
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 4: world over from the Cambrian period of geologic time up

470
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,920
Speaker 4: through the Triassic or Jurassic. Sometime in the Middle mesozo

471
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 4: and people were like, hey, these things are awesome. You

472
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:05,919
Speaker 4: can really use them to tell these rocks apart. But

473
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:09,360
Speaker 4: they're different ages. We had no idea what they were, right,

474
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 4: So they were just these things that we could find,

475
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 4: these entities, and we were like, Okay, they're useful, but

476
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 4: we don't know what they are. And recently they found

477
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 4: out that they're part of the head region of an

478
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 4: eel like critter, so a very small, little thin fish

479
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,160
Speaker 4: where the other parts of its skeleton are not hard

480
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 4: enough to enter the fossil record, but they found one

481
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,359
Speaker 4: of these rare fossil occurrences where we've got the soft

482
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:36,960
Speaker 4: tissues preserved, the muscle blocks and some of the skin,

483
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:39,440
Speaker 4: the eyeballs. They've got great big eyes, so they look

484
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,359
Speaker 4: to be like sort of gill support structures or something

485
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 4: related to the mouth, but not traditional teeth like you

486
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:47,200
Speaker 4: or I have. And these things are really neat because

487
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,159
Speaker 4: they can not only tell us time, but they change

488
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 4: color when they get different temperatures. So a geologists at

489
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:58,120
Speaker 4: the United States Geological Survey, Anita Epstein, figured out that

490
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:01,159
Speaker 4: you could use the color of Kanada to figure out

491
00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:03,960
Speaker 4: if the rocks had gotten to the right temperature to

492
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:07,919
Speaker 4: generate oil. So they would basically go from sort of

493
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:11,040
Speaker 4: a yellow color to an orange to a burnt umber

494
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,600
Speaker 4: kind of orange brown to a gray brown to black,

495
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:17,560
Speaker 4: and you could figure out exactly the temperature that they

496
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 4: were cooked at, and that could tell you whether the

497
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 4: rocks at that depth got to be the right temperature

498
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 4: for oil production. A pretty neat trick. They call it

499
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 4: the connidant alteration index. And there's a nice little article

500
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,400
Speaker 4: on Wikipedia you can read if you're interested in exploring that.

501
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 1: More So, when people are like trying to figure out

502
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:37,920
Speaker 1: where oil is. If they find one of these things

503
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 1: and it's the right color, are they like, Okay, now

504
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:41,680
Speaker 1: we need to dig in this area a lot more.

505
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 1: And that's like an indicator that you're in the right spot.

506
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:46,400
Speaker 4: Yes, and if it's the wrong color, don't bother.

507
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 1: Okay, and mars, we'll have none of this. So we're

508
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:51,640
Speaker 1: we're out of luck there. But that's awesome.

509
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 2: My last question is do all these names they give

510
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,720
Speaker 2: to soils and rocks maneuver? Do these actually make sense?

511
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 2: Or is it a big pile of nonsense the way

512
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 2: it is in astronomy, with arbitrary dotted lines that date

513
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:06,960
Speaker 2: back to like some old man in robes in seventeen

514
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 2: hundreds who gave something the wrong name.

515
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:10,880
Speaker 4: I mean, I'd love to tell you that it all

516
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,400
Speaker 4: makes perfect sense, but you know, like the English language,

517
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 4: the geological lexicon has adopted words from other traditions, other languages.

518
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 4: I really like thinking about the origins of these different words.

519
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,160
Speaker 4: I think kana dant. I'm sure that breaks down into

520
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:32,680
Speaker 4: something like cone shaped tooth in terms of its etymology.

521
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 4: But geology is very rich with words from French, Italian, Scottish,

522
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 4: even Indonesian Bahasa. Indonesia has contributed major words to the

523
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:46,359
Speaker 4: geological lexicon, and I love that sort of melting pot

524
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 4: aspect of the science. It's very appropriate for the Indonesians

525
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 4: to have a word for a volcanic mudflow, a lahar,

526
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,719
Speaker 4: but you wouldn't expect that to originate from Scotland. But

527
00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 4: it's very appropriate for the Scots to come up with

528
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:04,000
Speaker 4: words like esker and turn, which described glacial features. So

529
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,920
Speaker 4: it tells you something sort of almost anthropological about the

530
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 4: place where these words originate.

531
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 2: There's like sentiments of words that build up over time.

532
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 4: That's a good way of thinking of it. And probably

533
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 4: some of these words are almost like index fossils, right

534
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:20,919
Speaker 4: where they come into fashion for a while, they're used,

535
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:22,959
Speaker 4: and then you can only find them in the deepest,

536
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 4: dustiest pages of the literature, which is.

537
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 1: Where we love to explore. All right, well, thank you

538
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 1: so much, Callen. This was super helpful, and we're going

539
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 1: to send your answer to Ust and he'll tell you

540
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 1: if he feels like his question was answered right on.

541
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 4: Okay, good luck, everybody.

542
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 2: I love talking to geologists. They rock.

543
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 1: I bet Callen has never heard that.

544
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 3: Sure, Hi, Kellen, Daniel and Kelly, thank you for those

545
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 3: rock solid answers. I'll put my plans for a oil

546
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 3: company on Mars on a hold.

547
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 2: Now, thank you.

548
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 1: All right, Well, I am so glad that youst felt

549
00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 1: like he got his question answered. And so now let's

550
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 1: take a break and we'll move on to a question

551
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 1: from Scott, who unfortunately is from California. We don't all

552
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 1: get to pick where we're from.

553
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 2: All right, we're back and we're answering questions from listeners

554
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 2: like you. If you have a question about the universe

555
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 2: that nobody you know can answer, send it to us.

556
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 2: We will answer it for you. We write back to everybody.

557
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 2: Send us an email to questions at Danielankelly dot org.

558
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 1: Well try to get you an answer. Not all questions

559
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 1: have answers, but we will do our best. But I

560
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 1: guess there's no answer is also a kind of answer.

561
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 2: Mm hmm. Yeah. The answer nobody knows is unfortunately the

562
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 2: answer to most questions. And today we have a thorny

563
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 2: question from Scott from California. He's asking about a famous

564
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 2: physics experiment. It leads to all sorts of tricky philosophical wrinkles.

565
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 5: This is Scott from California. I have a question about

566
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 5: the double slit experiment. I am imagining a probability wave

567
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 5: of a particle approaching the first barrier that has the

568
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 5: slits in it. As the wave approaches that first barrier,

569
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 5: I'm assuming that the universe has to make a decision

570
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 5: about whether the particle is going to hit the barrier

571
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 5: or go through a slit. That is, the wave function

572
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 5: would collapse, and the particle would find itself hitting somewhere

573
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 5: on the barrier, or perhaps find itself right where a

574
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 5: slit is. If it finds itself right where a slit is,

575
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 5: does the wave function then instantly uncollapse such that it

576
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 5: goes through bow slits simultaneously. This question has been bothering

577
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 5: me for a long time, so I'm really looking forward

578
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 5: to getting an answer. Thank you so much, oh Man Scott.

579
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 5: That is a great question.

580
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 1: And I have vague memories of the double slit experiment

581
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 1: from freshman year of college, but I guess that's twenty

582
00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 1: years ago now. Oh my gosh, So Daniel, well refresh

583
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 1: my aging memory. What's the double slit experiment?

584
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's useful to nail down exactly what

585
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 2: we're talking about. So we can figure out how best

586
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 2: to answer Scott's question. This is a famous experiment that's

587
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 2: been done in many ways, with changing interpretations over time.

588
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 2: So the first version of this experiment was done with light.

589
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 2: You have some source of light, a light bulb or

590
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 2: a laser or whatever, and you shine it on some

591
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 2: barrier and most of the light is absorbed, but you

592
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 2: have two little slits in the barrier, and where those

593
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 2: slits are the light can go through. So now on

594
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 2: the other side of the barrier you have these two

595
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 2: little narrow slits which act like sources of light themselves, right,

596
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 2: almost like you have two little light bulbs right there.

597
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 2: And then the light that comes from these slits hits

598
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 2: some screen, and that's where you're observing it. You see

599
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 2: on the screen, it's not just like light from the

600
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 2: two slits. You see an interference pattern. You see that

601
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 2: in some places it's dark even though the light hits it,

602
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 2: and other places it's very bright. And that's explained by

603
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 2: light being a wave and canceling out in some places

604
00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 2: and adding up in other places. So the first earliest

605
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 2: version of this experiment showed us that light had these

606
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 2: wave like properties because it interfered with itself on the screen.

607
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm following that, but I feel like I also

608
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 1: have a vague memory of physicists talking about light as

609
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 1: a particle. Yeah, what's going on there?

610
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 2: So now it gets weird. Remember, the crucial explanation for

611
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 2: why do we have interference is that we have light

612
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 2: coming from both slits, right, Each one is like a

613
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 2: little source, and sometimes their waves go up and the

614
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 2: other one is going down, and sometimes they're both going up,

615
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 2: so they add up. But the crucial thing is you

616
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 2: have two sources, which is why you have interference. So

617
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 2: then slow the experiment down. Now we know light is

618
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 2: actually made out of little packets. It's not like a

619
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 2: continuous stream. Right when you turn on your flashlight, it's

620
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 2: actually shooting out little packets of light, these things we

621
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 2: call photons. And so you can make this experiment more

622
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 2: interesting by slowing it down and saying, what happens if

623
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 2: we only have one photon in the experiment at a time, right,

624
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:55,080
Speaker 2: instead of huge numbers of photons which you're interfering with

625
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 2: each other, what happens you have a single photon and

626
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 2: then you see something very strange, which is the interference pattern.

627
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 2: Builds up gradually on the screen. So one photon comes

628
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 2: through and it lands in one spot, another photon goes

629
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 2: through it lands in a different spot, and then the

630
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 2: third one in another spot. But if you do a

631
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 2: million of these, it adds up to give you the

632
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,480
Speaker 2: same pattern you saw when you illuminated it with a

633
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 2: huge amount of photons all at the same time. So

634
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 2: the confusing thing there is, and I can see Kelly's

635
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 2: faces going hot, is what's doing the interfering Because in

636
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 2: the earlier version I explained that the interference pattern is

637
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 2: coming from having two sources. But if the one photon

638
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 2: is in the experiment at a time, what is it

639
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:39,600
Speaker 2: interfering with? That's the big puzzle.

640
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 1: Is the answer going to be quantum entanglement or something?

641
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 1: Why do you all always make this so complicated?

642
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:49,720
Speaker 2: The answer is definitely quantum mechanical, though not entanglement. What's

643
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 2: happening here is that the photon is not like a

644
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 2: little particle that has a specific path and it goes

645
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 2: through this slit and then hits the screen. The photon

646
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:00,960
Speaker 2: has a probability to go through one slit or the

647
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 2: other slit, or to get absorbed by the barrier. Right,

648
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 2: we don't know where an individual photon is going to go,

649
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 2: and it's that uncertainty, that probability that's doing the interfering.

650
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:13,239
Speaker 2: So remember that picture I painted in your mind of

651
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,640
Speaker 2: light going through the experiment and coming out of the

652
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:19,759
Speaker 2: slits as little sources and then interfering with itself. You

653
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,319
Speaker 2: can use that exact same picture, except instead of thinking

654
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 2: about it in terms of light, think about it in

655
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,360
Speaker 2: terms of probability for one photon. So you send that

656
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:29,920
Speaker 2: photon against the barrier, it has a probability to hit

657
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 2: one slit or the other slit. That probability passes through

658
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 2: both slits, right, And then that probability interferes with itself

659
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 2: and creates a probability distribution on the screen in the back.

660
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 2: Then the universe has to pick, Okay, where is this

661
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,279
Speaker 2: photon actually going to go? So I can put it

662
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:52,320
Speaker 2: somewhere on the screen, and it draws from that probability distribution,

663
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 2: and it puts one photon, So that probability distribution guides

664
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,880
Speaker 2: each individual photon. It puts more where the probability is

665
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,560
Speaker 2: U is high, in other words, where the interference pattern

666
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,239
Speaker 2: is bright, and fewer where it's dark, So that it

667
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:08,319
Speaker 2: gradually it builds up the same interference pattern you saw

668
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:10,760
Speaker 2: when you shown the light brightly. So you just replace

669
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:14,319
Speaker 2: the concept of light waves with probability waves and all

670
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 2: the same math works.

671
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:17,920
Speaker 1: Awesome. I think I had been imagining when we were

672
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:20,240
Speaker 1: sending a particle through the slits that we had directed

673
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 1: it to one slit in particular, not that it could

674
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:25,359
Speaker 1: have gone through both. But it's not like I had

675
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:27,759
Speaker 1: the probability stuff in my head. So I still, yeah,

676
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:29,280
Speaker 1: anyway makes sense now, awesome.

677
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's crucial that you don't know in advance which

678
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 2: slid it goes through, that you have the possibility for

679
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:36,839
Speaker 2: it to go through both slits, because then the other

680
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 2: version of this experiment is, well, what if we check.

681
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 2: What if we put a little detector like a camera

682
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,319
Speaker 2: or something that can tell whether the photon went through

683
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 2: slit A or slit B. Then what happens, Well, then

684
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 2: the universe picks witch slid it went through because you

685
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 2: put a detector there, So you've collapsed the probability. Instead

686
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:55,279
Speaker 2: of allowing for the possibility that the photon goes through

687
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:58,280
Speaker 2: either slit, you now force the universe to pick which

688
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 2: slid it goes through. So then the inner feference pattern disappears,

689
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:03,440
Speaker 2: and you just get photons going through one slit or

690
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:06,880
Speaker 2: the other slit, and you get a geometric shadow instead

691
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 2: of an interference pattern because there isn't probability coming out

692
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 2: both slits because you force the universe to pick and

693
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 2: now it just sends a photon to one slit or

694
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:18,120
Speaker 2: the other slit. This is this bizarre process we don't

695
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 2: fully understand of how possibility becomes reality when the quantum

696
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 2: meets the classical.

697
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 1: It still absolutely blows my mind that just measuring it

698
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:29,920
Speaker 1: changes the pattern that you get on the back wall,

699
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 1: Like is it just shy? And like you know, what

700
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:35,840
Speaker 1: is the leading theory for why observing it changes things.

701
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:39,279
Speaker 2: It's not something we understand very well. And this is

702
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 2: called the measurement problem in philosophy of physics. It's really

703
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,319
Speaker 2: a puzzle. I mean, we have this quantum theory that

704
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 2: says things of the quantum level follow these equations of probability,

705
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 2: and that's the Shirtinger equation, and they can have weird

706
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,719
Speaker 2: properties like not having a specific location but instead having

707
00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:00,440
Speaker 2: a probability to have several locations, or having ability to

708
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 2: be spin up or spin down. You can maintain a

709
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:07,800
Speaker 2: superposition of different possible outcomes, different possible properties for yourself.

710
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 2: That's what quantum objects can do. But we know that

711
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 2: classical objects can't. Like when you have a screen, the

712
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 2: photo either hits here or there. It doesn't like half

713
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:18,320
Speaker 2: hit here and half hit there. Or when you flip

714
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 2: a coin, it's either heads or tails. It's not like

715
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 2: half heads and half tails. So we have these two

716
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:26,400
Speaker 2: different worlds, the quantum world where you can have superpositions,

717
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 2: and the classical world where you can't, and we don't

718
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:32,320
Speaker 2: really understand the transition between them. It's confusing because everything

719
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:34,799
Speaker 2: in the classical world, like quarters and me and you,

720
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 2: are made up of quantum things. So the leading theory

721
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,839
Speaker 2: is sort of nonsensical. The leading theory, called the Copenhagen interpretation,

722
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 2: says that all right, you have quantum stuff, and it

723
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:47,479
Speaker 2: can have multiple possibilities, and it can do all sorts

724
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 2: of crazy wavel like things like interfere with itself and

725
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 2: its own probability. But then when you interact with a

726
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:57,360
Speaker 2: classical object like an eyeball or a detector or a screen,

727
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 2: then the wave function collapses and the universe to pick says,

728
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:04,200
Speaker 2: instead of this whole spectrum of possibilities, you just pick one,

729
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 2: and that allows us to have classical outcomes like hey,

730
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 2: it's up or it's down, the photon is here, photon

731
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:14,680
Speaker 2: is there. This collapse theory doesn't really work because number one,

732
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:18,320
Speaker 2: it violates like basic quantum mechanical rules like quantum information

733
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:22,240
Speaker 2: is never lost. And also it's not really well defined.

734
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 2: Like when I said a quantum object meets a classical object,

735
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:28,239
Speaker 2: I wasn't clear on, well, what is a classical object exactly,

736
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 2: because as I said earlier, all classical objects are made

737
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:34,400
Speaker 2: to quantum objects, and that's the puzzle. Nobody can define

738
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:37,759
Speaker 2: the barrier between quantum and classical objects, so we don't

739
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:40,919
Speaker 2: really understand it. We don't have a great explanation. It's

740
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:44,719
Speaker 2: one of the biggest open questions in philosophy of physics.

741
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 2: Still so much left to do, still so much leve

742
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 2: to do, exactly. So let's get to Scott's question. And

743
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:54,080
Speaker 2: Scott is thinking about what happens when the photon is

744
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 2: approaching that barrier, and I think that he's imagining that

745
00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:00,799
Speaker 2: either the photon hits the barrier and is absorbed, or

746
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:04,000
Speaker 2: hits one of the slits and goes through and I

747
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 2: think Scott is thinking that maybe the universe collapses it

748
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 2: at that moment when it either hits the barrier or

749
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 2: goes through a slit, because it sort of encountered some

750
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:15,760
Speaker 2: big classical object, and then he's confused about how later

751
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:18,279
Speaker 2: we can say it maybe went through both slits and

752
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:20,880
Speaker 2: is there some uncollapse, Like how do you get multiple

753
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:24,800
Speaker 2: possibilities through that barrier? I think is essentially Scott's question,

754
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:28,400
Speaker 2: And the answer is that hitting that first barrier doesn't

755
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:31,919
Speaker 2: collapse the wave function because you've still left multiple possibilities.

756
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:34,799
Speaker 2: It can go through slit one or go through slit two,

757
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:38,840
Speaker 2: so both those possibilities propergly forward. So the short answer

758
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 2: is the first barrier doesn't collapse the wave function unless

759
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 2: you have a detector there that's saying like, hey, did

760
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 2: you go through slit one or slit two? Because you

761
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:50,240
Speaker 2: allow the possibility of multiple slits, you allow the quantum

762
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:52,600
Speaker 2: mechanical properties to maintain and for there to be a

763
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 2: superposition of two possible outcomes, and so then both of

764
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:58,719
Speaker 2: those possibilities go through the slits, and then you get

765
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:00,960
Speaker 2: the interference from those two two possibilities.

766
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 1: So if it collapses at the two slits. Instead, you

767
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:05,720
Speaker 1: get a totally different answer.

768
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you collapse it at the two slits, which

769
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 2: you can do if you put a little detector there

770
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:11,759
Speaker 2: and you say, I want to know which one it

771
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:14,360
Speaker 2: went through, then you get a totally different answer exactly,

772
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 2: you get a different pattern on the screen. And crucially,

773
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:20,320
Speaker 2: you can't uncollapse Like when you collapse the wave function,

774
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:22,720
Speaker 2: you go from here a whole bunch of possible outcomes

775
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:25,880
Speaker 2: to now there's just one, and you can't ever uncollapse it.

776
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:28,400
Speaker 2: You've lost information, which is why it's so confusing. And

777
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:30,759
Speaker 2: we've said on the podcast before, like you can't lose

778
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 2: quantum information. It can't be deleted from the universe. But

779
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 2: this collapse theory does violate that principle of quantum mechanics,

780
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:39,360
Speaker 2: and people out there might be like, hold on, aren't

781
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:42,640
Speaker 2: you contradicting yourself? Yeah. Absolutely, And this is one reason

782
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 2: why we haven't really figured this problem out, like we

783
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:48,840
Speaker 2: have this best explanation we have violates other things we

784
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:51,280
Speaker 2: know about the universe, so it's like a work in progress.

785
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is one of the really fun things I

786
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:56,319
Speaker 1: think about podcasting with a physicists. I hadn't realized there

787
00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,799
Speaker 1: were so many works in progress, but it's exciting that

788
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:01,880
Speaker 1: there's so much left to discover. So I feel like

789
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:04,759
Speaker 1: I understood that. But let's go ahead and test ourselves

790
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 1: and ask Scott if did we actually answer the question

791
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:09,840
Speaker 1: that you were asking, and if so, was the answer

792
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 1: clear that's right?

793
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 2: Or did we just collapse his brain? Okay, So it's

794
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:17,840
Speaker 2: my pleasure to welcome to the podcast, Scott Goldman. Scott,

795
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 2: thanks so much for running in with your really fun question.

796
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:22,239
Speaker 5: Yes, thank you.

797
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 2: So tell me you heard me and Kelly talk about

798
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 2: the double slit experiment and what happens to the wavefront

799
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 2: as it hits the first barrier and interferes afterwards. Tell

800
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:33,279
Speaker 2: me does that make sense to you? What questions do

801
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 2: you have or meaning?

802
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:39,319
Speaker 5: So it makes sense to me, I guess it all

803
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 5: comes down to one question, and that is, every time

804
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:49,080
Speaker 5: a particle is shot at that double slit, the barrier

805
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 5: with the double slit, and there's a probability wave that

806
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 5: comes to that barrier, it goes through both slits, interferes

807
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 5: with itself, and when it gets to that detector screen

808
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 5: the universe at that point then I guess has to

809
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:06,439
Speaker 5: make a decision where it hits. My question is does

810
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:11,400
Speaker 5: every particle that is shot at that barrier with the

811
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:15,720
Speaker 5: double slits go through and then hit the detector screen

812
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 5: or do some particles not hit the detector screen because

813
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:23,640
Speaker 5: they actually hit the barrier somewhere instead of going through

814
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:24,400
Speaker 5: the two slits.

815
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:27,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, great question. The answer is the second one. Not

816
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:30,720
Speaker 2: every particle makes it through butt, and there's always a butt.

817
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:34,759
Speaker 2: Every particle has a probability of making it through, so

818
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 2: there's sort of a lot of different outcomes. One outcome

819
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:39,719
Speaker 2: is you make it through one of the slits and

820
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:41,720
Speaker 2: you end up somewhere on the screen as a dot.

821
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 2: Another possible outcome is you don't make it through at all.

822
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:48,520
Speaker 2: So imagine that probability wave approaches the first barrier, or

823
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 2: the one with the slits in it. Some of the

824
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:53,680
Speaker 2: probability wave makes it through and interferes with itself and

825
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:55,719
Speaker 2: gives it a probability to hit the back screen, but

826
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 2: a lot of it, as you say, hits the barrier.

827
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:00,880
Speaker 2: So then when you force the universe to roll the

828
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 2: dice and say what is the outcome for this particular particle,

829
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:05,440
Speaker 2: A lot of them are going to hit the barrier,

830
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 2: and most of the descriptions of this experiment. They sort

831
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:10,279
Speaker 2: of ignore that part because that's not so interesting. We

832
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:12,399
Speaker 2: pay attention mostly to the ones that go through because

833
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 2: those are the ones that do the interfering. But yeah,

834
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 2: a lot of them. If you ask, like, hey, what

835
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 2: happened to this particular particle, you'd ance it would be

836
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 2: that a lot of them hit the barrier and don't

837
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:21,799
Speaker 2: make it through.

838
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:26,440
Speaker 5: Okay, So that's the part I guess where I'm having

839
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 5: trouble understanding because I'm imagining this probability wave approaching the barrier,

840
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:34,600
Speaker 5: and then when it gets to the barrier with the slits,

841
00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:38,279
Speaker 5: the universe has to decide like, oh am I going

842
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:43,240
Speaker 5: to hit the barrier, or no, I didn't hit the barrier.

843
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:47,200
Speaker 5: I happen to I'm gonna be right in this little

844
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:51,799
Speaker 5: space where there's a slit. But then it goes through

845
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:52,760
Speaker 5: both slits.

846
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,759
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, So the universe doesn't necessarily have to decide there, right.

847
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 2: What it can do is have several possible outcomes. The

848
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:02,240
Speaker 2: wave approaches the barrier, and now there are three possible outcomes.

849
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:03,960
Speaker 2: You go through one slit, you go through the other slit,

850
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:07,239
Speaker 2: or you reflect or maybe get absorbed, depending on the

851
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 2: nature of the barrier. So the probability is sort of

852
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 2: fragment there. But they don't have to collapse, right, They

853
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:16,200
Speaker 2: only collapse when you insist, you know. But if you

854
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 2: don't insist, you know, you're like, well, I'm just going

855
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:20,600
Speaker 2: to allow the universe to keep doing its thing. Keep

856
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:22,880
Speaker 2: that within a black box or keep my eyes closed

857
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:25,840
Speaker 2: for that part of it, equivalent. Then it can continue

858
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:29,719
Speaker 2: to propagate all three possibilities that it reflects back, or

859
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:31,279
Speaker 2: that it goes through one slit, or that it goes

860
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:33,760
Speaker 2: through the second slit. It can maintain all of those,

861
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 2: and it's maintaining the uncertainty that allows it to make

862
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:37,800
Speaker 2: that interference pattern.

863
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 5: So some of the probabilities go through the slit, and

864
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:43,600
Speaker 5: then when it gets the detector screen, at that point

865
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 5: it decides whether it actually made it through or hit

866
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:46,440
Speaker 5: the barrier.

867
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:49,279
Speaker 2: Mm hmmm, yeah, exactly. It doesn't have to collapse when

868
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 2: it hits the barrier.

869
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 5: Oh gosh, sorry.

870
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:55,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that's yeah, it's amazing. It's sort of crazy.

871
00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:57,040
Speaker 2: But the way to think about it is that it's

872
00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:00,239
Speaker 2: allowing some of that probability. You can also think of

873
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 2: it another way. You can think, you know that the probability,

874
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:06,879
Speaker 2: most of it gets zeroed out and only those two

875
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:11,280
Speaker 2: little narrow slits of probability remain. But there's still uncertainty there.

876
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:14,720
Speaker 2: You don't know which way, and so that's what allows

877
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 2: for the interference. And I think a lot of people

878
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 2: are confused by that. They're like, well, why doesn't the

879
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:21,480
Speaker 2: barrier collapse the wave function?

880
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:22,880
Speaker 6: Right right?

881
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 2: And you can think about it that way also, and

882
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:27,719
Speaker 2: you can, for example, add detectors to the barrier so

883
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 2: that the only possibilities for the particle are that it

884
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 2: goes through a slit or it hits the detector, and

885
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:37,080
Speaker 2: that doesn't collapse the wave function completely. That just says,

886
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:38,759
Speaker 2: if it hits the barrier, then I want to know.

887
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:41,719
Speaker 2: If it doesn't hit the barrier, there's still uncertainty because

888
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:44,399
Speaker 2: they could still go through either slit and then you'll

889
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:48,239
Speaker 2: still get the interference pattern. So that scenario you could

890
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 2: sort of partially collapse the wave function. You'd be like,

891
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:53,200
Speaker 2: if it hits the barrier, I want to know. Otherwise

892
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 2: I'm going to allow for the uncertainty to propagate through

893
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 2: both slits. So this is an infinite number of confusing

894
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 2: and amazing ways to do this experiment. All right, well,

895
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:03,759
Speaker 2: I hope that helped you understand. Thanks so much for

896
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:04,760
Speaker 2: asking the question.

897
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:25,720
Speaker 6: Thank you, and we're back.

898
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:28,600
Speaker 1: Our final question of the day is a question from

899
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:32,560
Speaker 1: Lewis on Discord, and here is his question.

900
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:37,320
Speaker 7: Hi, Daniel Kelly, I was wondering what kind of adaptations

901
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:44,600
Speaker 7: might we make to humankind, whether genetic or bionic or anything,

902
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 7: to help us to live on a place like Mars. Thanks,

903
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:53,880
Speaker 7: looking forward to hearing your answer.

904
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:57,120
Speaker 1: All right, Oh my gosh, there's so many problems on Mars?

905
00:46:57,239 --> 00:46:58,800
Speaker 1: Which ones should we try to solve?

906
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 2: I'm excited that you're optimistic about this. I thought your

907
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:03,839
Speaker 2: answer might be like, it's impossible to give up.

908
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 1: I mean, the back of my mind is saying that,

909
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:10,040
Speaker 1: but I'm gonna let's try to have some fun. Let's

910
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:12,360
Speaker 1: start with the problems that could kill us. And so

911
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:19,520
Speaker 1: those problems are probably radiation, partial gravity, and depressurization. So

912
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:21,440
Speaker 1: I think those are the top three. What do you think, Daniel?

913
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:23,560
Speaker 1: Are those the top three worst problems on Mars?

914
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:26,040
Speaker 2: Those sound pretty bad, yeah, and I think I'd love

915
00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:28,399
Speaker 2: to hear solutions to those. And this is great because

916
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:31,360
Speaker 2: it gives you an opportunity to demonstrate your optimistic side

917
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:34,280
Speaker 2: instead of just throwing cold water on humanity's prospects.

918
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:35,719
Speaker 1: Oh man, I hope that doesn't mean this is going

919
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:38,320
Speaker 1: to be a bad answer, because it's not in my

920
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:39,839
Speaker 1: skill set to be optimistic.

921
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:42,440
Speaker 2: Okay, let's see, all right, let's hold.

922
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:44,799
Speaker 1: Off on the depressurization problem till the end because the

923
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:47,160
Speaker 1: initial set of solutions that I have are not really

924
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:51,520
Speaker 1: good for depressurization. So one problem is radiation. So, as

925
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:54,680
Speaker 1: we've discussed on a couple other episodes, space has different

926
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:57,920
Speaker 1: kinds of radiation then we typically encounter on Earth. So

927
00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 1: you have solar flares and solar part of events, and

928
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:02,720
Speaker 1: these are like shooting protons.

929
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:03,160
Speaker 6: Boo boo, boo boo.

930
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:06,000
Speaker 1: You can dive right away from something like radiation sickness

931
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:08,040
Speaker 1: just shuts a bunch of your organs down all at once,

932
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:10,600
Speaker 1: or you can get cancer which will kill you slowly. Also,

933
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:13,879
Speaker 1: we have galactic cosmic radiation, not one hundred percent sure

934
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:16,480
Speaker 1: where it comes from. Could be from exploding stars in

935
00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:18,759
Speaker 1: black holes, but we don't really know, right.

936
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:21,480
Speaker 2: Daniel, Yeah, exactly, Yeah.

937
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:24,160
Speaker 1: All right, So the galactic cosmic radiation tends to be bigger,

938
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:27,480
Speaker 1: like charged ion particles. I saw this one paper it

939
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:29,600
Speaker 1: was an old paper from like the seventies, but they

940
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:31,680
Speaker 1: got a gel that was meant to be sort of

941
00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 1: like the human body, and they shot an iron ion

942
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:38,520
Speaker 1: through it and it blew a hole the size of

943
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:41,719
Speaker 1: a human hair, which like, does I mean usually like, oh,

944
00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:44,040
Speaker 1: size of a human hair that's used to indicate something small,

945
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:46,000
Speaker 1: but like, I don't want holes the size of a

946
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 1: human hair in my brain. Like that's no good, no.

947
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:52,480
Speaker 2: And that's a great image because it reinforces the message

948
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:55,840
Speaker 2: that these things are not like little fuzzy quantum objects

949
00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:58,920
Speaker 2: that somehow interfere with you. They are basically space bullets. Right,

950
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:02,360
Speaker 2: Space is shooting at you, and we have a bulletproof

951
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:05,160
Speaker 2: vest here on Earth. Right our atmosphere is protecting us.

952
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:08,520
Speaker 2: It's absorbing all that kinetic energy and we're lucky. And

953
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:10,400
Speaker 2: so yeah, how do we deal with life on Mars

954
00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:12,760
Speaker 2: without our atmospheric bulletproof vest Kelly?

955
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:16,640
Speaker 1: The easiest solution is probably something related to shielding. But radiation, well,

956
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:20,120
Speaker 1: space makes everything complicated. But one way radiation is complicated

957
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:23,720
Speaker 1: is because of something called spellation. So when galactic cosmic

958
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:26,680
Speaker 1: radiation hits your habitat, it hits particles that it then

959
00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:29,520
Speaker 1: breaks into other kinds of particles that are also radioactive

960
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:31,440
Speaker 1: and now rain down on you and what's called a

961
00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 1: nuclear shower. See, Daniel, you asked me for a solution,

962
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:38,360
Speaker 1: and I'm giving you reasons why it's worse. My pessimism

963
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:39,600
Speaker 1: is winning, all right, I'm backing up.

964
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:42,560
Speaker 2: Okay, So you're saying, if I walk around Mars with

965
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 2: like an umbrella of some very heavy duty material to

966
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:48,600
Speaker 2: protect myself from radiation, it's actually just going to generate

967
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:51,359
Speaker 2: like showers of radiation underneath.

968
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:54,000
Speaker 1: The umbrella, depending on what the umbrella is made out of. Yes,

969
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:57,000
Speaker 1: so there are some particles that are better at absorbing things.

970
00:49:57,040 --> 00:49:59,680
Speaker 1: I don't think anything's really great at absorbing galactic cosmic

971
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:03,760
Speaker 1: radia without breaking up. But could bury your habitat in regolith,

972
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:06,640
Speaker 1: which we've talked about before. But you know, human bodies

973
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:11,120
Speaker 1: can repair some damage, and some of us are better

974
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:15,120
Speaker 1: repairing damage than others. And so let's assume that part

975
00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:17,880
Speaker 1: of the solution is you're burying your habitat and regolith.

976
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:22,160
Speaker 1: But you could also specifically send two Mars people from

977
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:26,800
Speaker 1: Earth who are more radiation resistant, and to be honest,

978
00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:29,160
Speaker 1: I don't know how we pick those people yet. Because like,

979
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:31,600
Speaker 1: we don't have a lot of experience with space radiation,

980
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:35,120
Speaker 1: but presumably there's variation in this trait. So you could

981
00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:38,680
Speaker 1: send more radiation resistant people up to space, and at

982
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 1: least for the first generation, that might help maybe.

983
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:45,480
Speaker 2: Because they are like less likely to get cancer. They

984
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:50,080
Speaker 2: have some sort of like genetic predisposition, Like biologically, how

985
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:52,279
Speaker 2: does that work? What is it about some people that

986
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:55,080
Speaker 2: makes them like more rad proof than others?

987
00:50:55,400 --> 00:51:00,000
Speaker 1: No, great question? Who knows, right, Here's Kelly, We don't really,

988
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:01,480
Speaker 1: you know, And so that there are some people who

989
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:03,359
Speaker 1: are like, well, you know, we can pick people who

990
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:05,680
Speaker 1: are more radiation resistant, and then we could figure out

991
00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:08,719
Speaker 1: what it is about them that makes them more radiation resistant,

992
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:11,160
Speaker 1: and then we could try to use genetic engineering to

993
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:15,239
Speaker 1: tinker to make the next generation more radiation resistant, and like,

994
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:18,600
Speaker 1: through this combination of crew selection and genetic engineering, we

995
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 1: can create people who can survive better in space. Here's

996
00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:25,480
Speaker 1: a tiny little bit of pessimism. Really quick, I won't

997
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:27,960
Speaker 1: linger too long. But you know, most of the important

998
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:30,719
Speaker 1: human traits are not controlled by like a gene that

999
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:34,040
Speaker 1: you can tinker with. So like our genetic engineering of

1000
00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:36,960
Speaker 1: humans that has gone best so far has involved tinkering

1001
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:39,760
Speaker 1: with genes that don't get past to babies and dealing

1002
00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:42,480
Speaker 1: with diseases that are caused by like a mutation in

1003
00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:45,840
Speaker 1: one spot. So if radiation is controlled by one hundred genes,

1004
00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:48,279
Speaker 1: you could tinker with all those genes. But the other

1005
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:51,200
Speaker 1: problem is that genes usually don't just do one thing,

1006
00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:53,680
Speaker 1: so when you tinker with all those one hundred genes,

1007
00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:56,360
Speaker 1: you might be messing up other stuff too. So actually,

1008
00:51:57,280 --> 00:51:59,480
Speaker 1: let's go ahead and say that's not the best solution.

1009
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:02,000
Speaker 1: And now, because I have a physicist on the show

1010
00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:05,759
Speaker 1: and an optimist, maybe I'm going to kick to you.

1011
00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:08,560
Speaker 1: So let's imagine that we are living in an environment

1012
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:10,960
Speaker 1: where we have where money is no problem, and we

1013
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:14,200
Speaker 1: have as many nuclear portable nuclear power plants as we

1014
00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:17,959
Speaker 1: could possibly need. Could you use electricity in some way

1015
00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:20,920
Speaker 1: to protect your habitat from space radiation? I know it's

1016
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:23,719
Speaker 1: energetically expensive, but like, could we super coil?

1017
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:23,840
Speaker 5: Like?

1018
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:25,120
Speaker 1: Are what are our solutions here?

1019
00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:29,600
Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, these things are mostly ions, right, and so

1020
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:33,560
Speaker 2: these they are charge particles, and those charge particles can

1021
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:37,680
Speaker 2: be repelled or redirected by electric fields, but they're very,

1022
00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:40,319
Speaker 2: very high energy. The good thing is that the very

1023
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:43,359
Speaker 2: high energy ones are rarer, so while it'd be much

1024
00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:46,600
Speaker 2: more challenging to redirect the high energy ones, there are

1025
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:49,880
Speaker 2: less common. The rate falls very very quickly with energy.

1026
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:51,879
Speaker 2: But yeah, it would cost a huge amount of energy.

1027
00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:53,799
Speaker 2: I mean, really, the better way to do it is

1028
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:56,800
Speaker 2: a magnet, right, rather than relying on their electric field,

1029
00:52:56,880 --> 00:52:58,440
Speaker 2: because that's what the Earth does. The Earth has a

1030
00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:00,640
Speaker 2: magnetic field, and we deflect a lot of this stuff.

1031
00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:04,320
Speaker 2: There actually is a fun proposal to put a huge

1032
00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:07,840
Speaker 2: magnet between the Sun and Mars to create like a

1033
00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:11,719
Speaker 2: magnetic shadow for Mars to deflect these particles. And I

1034
00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:14,560
Speaker 2: asked a friend of mine who's a planetary scientist who

1035
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:17,480
Speaker 2: has actually worked on like Mars missions, and he says, quote,

1036
00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:20,440
Speaker 2: this is literally the dumbest idea I have ever heard.

1037
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:23,080
Speaker 2: I almost fell out of my chair when I saw

1038
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:24,040
Speaker 2: someone presenting it.

1039
00:53:24,600 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 1: Okay, I feel like pestimist, I know.

1040
00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:33,720
Speaker 2: And I asked him to elaborate, and he says, quote,

1041
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:36,319
Speaker 2: there are so many reasons it's stupid. You have to

1042
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:39,160
Speaker 2: somehow make a giant magnet. You'd have to put it

1043
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:41,799
Speaker 2: on a ginormous spaceship and keep it in orbit around

1044
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:43,719
Speaker 2: the lagarage point, and It goes on to point out

1045
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:46,319
Speaker 2: that not all of the radiation comes directly from the Sun,

1046
00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:49,399
Speaker 2: so the shadow wouldn't even protect you. And a lot

1047
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:52,839
Speaker 2: of the radiation are UV photons, which do not have

1048
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:55,120
Speaker 2: a charge and will not be deflected by magnets or

1049
00:53:55,160 --> 00:53:57,880
Speaker 2: electric fields. You really need the combination of a magnetic

1050
00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:00,480
Speaker 2: field for your whole planet, not just a shadow, and

1051
00:54:00,560 --> 00:54:03,840
Speaker 2: you need an atmosphere to absorb the stuff that isn't charged.

1052
00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:06,200
Speaker 2: So yeah, physics doesn't have an answer for this one either.

1053
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:10,320
Speaker 1: Oh man, okay, well, let's move on to the next problem.

1054
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:15,440
Speaker 1: I don't have an answer really, And then of course

1055
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:18,520
Speaker 1: there's all the ethical things that we just completely glanced

1056
00:54:18,520 --> 00:54:21,680
Speaker 1: over with genetic engineering, so that that is something else

1057
00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:23,400
Speaker 1: holding this all back, all right, So then the second

1058
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:26,960
Speaker 1: problem is partial gravity. So Mars has forty percent of

1059
00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:30,359
Speaker 1: the gravity we find on Earth. We know that astronauts

1060
00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:33,200
Speaker 1: who experience no gravity when they're in free fall lose

1061
00:54:33,400 --> 00:54:36,520
Speaker 1: muscle mass, bone density, and that might explain why they

1062
00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:38,879
Speaker 1: start losing some of their vision or some of them,

1063
00:54:38,920 --> 00:54:41,239
Speaker 1: not all of them. Because the fluids, you know, we're

1064
00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:44,400
Speaker 1: adapted to have gravity pulling our fluids back down. So

1065
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:47,799
Speaker 1: when we don't have that benefit. Fluids tend to go

1066
00:54:47,920 --> 00:54:49,520
Speaker 1: up and they like push on our brain and they

1067
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:51,800
Speaker 1: might be changing the shape of our eyes. So forty

1068
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:55,040
Speaker 1: percent gravity would that solve the problem. We don't know.

1069
00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:58,560
Speaker 1: Like some of those problems maybe bones and muscles, for example,

1070
00:54:58,640 --> 00:55:02,400
Speaker 1: that could possibly be solved by like putting on really

1071
00:55:02,440 --> 00:55:06,319
Speaker 1: heavy weighted outfits that sort of make it so that

1072
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:08,799
Speaker 1: you're carrying around as much weight as you'd be carrying

1073
00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:11,520
Speaker 1: around on Earth. That might help keep everything nice and strong.

1074
00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:13,799
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's going to help with like

1075
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:17,560
Speaker 1: fluid related problems or like anything else in your body

1076
00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:20,560
Speaker 1: that's associated with partial gravity, but you could, and I've

1077
00:55:20,560 --> 00:55:24,680
Speaker 1: seen proposals for this, create banked race tracks to create

1078
00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:27,640
Speaker 1: artificial gravity, and you could, I don't know, maybe sleep

1079
00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:29,600
Speaker 1: in those and that might be enough. And then I

1080
00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:33,160
Speaker 1: also have seen proposals for what are called sucky pants

1081
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:37,240
Speaker 1: or sucky sleeping bags, and they they create a different

1082
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:40,360
Speaker 1: kind of pressure and it pulls the fluids down, and

1083
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:43,600
Speaker 1: so you could like sleep in these or wear these.

1084
00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:46,080
Speaker 1: They're like you have to tune them well because sometimes

1085
00:55:46,120 --> 00:55:49,440
Speaker 1: when they turn them on like too fast or too strong,

1086
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:51,600
Speaker 1: the fluids rush out of your brain and people like

1087
00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:54,640
Speaker 1: pass out, which is not great and they don't look

1088
00:55:54,680 --> 00:55:58,239
Speaker 1: super comfy. But so there are some technological solutions.

1089
00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:00,640
Speaker 2: But to be clear, here you saying that we know

1090
00:56:00,640 --> 00:56:03,320
Speaker 2: there are problems in zero gravity, and now we're asking

1091
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:06,040
Speaker 2: like is forty percent gravity enough? Like do we still

1092
00:56:06,080 --> 00:56:09,080
Speaker 2: have those problems in forty percent? And then what can

1093
00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:11,520
Speaker 2: we do about solving that additional bit? Right?

1094
00:56:11,840 --> 00:56:15,160
Speaker 1: Yeah? Right, So I am assuming that forty percent is

1095
00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:17,799
Speaker 1: not going to solve all of our problems. If it does,

1096
00:56:17,840 --> 00:56:20,000
Speaker 1: then great, we don't need any extra help. If we

1097
00:56:20,040 --> 00:56:22,799
Speaker 1: do need extra help, here are some things we could do.

1098
00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:24,840
Speaker 2: But who wants to live on like a banked racetrack

1099
00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:26,799
Speaker 2: their whole life? That doesn't sound like a fun place

1100
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:28,399
Speaker 2: to hang out. Or maybe only part of the time

1101
00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:29,480
Speaker 2: you need to be on the racetrack.

1102
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:31,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, we don't know. Maybe you could sleep on the

1103
00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:34,759
Speaker 1: racetrack and that would be enough, but I we don't know.

1104
00:56:35,160 --> 00:56:37,520
Speaker 2: Well, what about something like more inherent? Is there something

1105
00:56:37,560 --> 00:56:40,160
Speaker 2: we can do inside the body, you know, like to

1106
00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:44,280
Speaker 2: modify the structure of our bones or chain some fundamental

1107
00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:47,760
Speaker 2: process inside of us that'll just make us more naturally

1108
00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:50,839
Speaker 2: suited to that kind of environment. I'm thinking like really

1109
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:52,400
Speaker 2: science fiction craziness here.

1110
00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:55,680
Speaker 1: I had fiction craziness. Okay, so right, So one of

1111
00:56:55,680 --> 00:56:59,839
Speaker 1: the questions would be, like, does our current genetic make

1112
00:56:59,880 --> 00:57:03,400
Speaker 1: up include enough variability where we could tinker with things

1113
00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:06,520
Speaker 1: in the right way to make us survive better in

1114
00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:09,200
Speaker 1: these environments? And so you know, maybe there are, for starters,

1115
00:57:09,239 --> 00:57:11,920
Speaker 1: people who have bones that are thicker than thicker than

1116
00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:14,480
Speaker 1: others and would maybe do better in an environment like this.

1117
00:57:15,000 --> 00:57:17,440
Speaker 1: And if we can figure out why they have thicker bones,

1118
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:20,080
Speaker 1: maybe we could tinker with the DNA of future generations,

1119
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:23,120
Speaker 1: which is a phrase that makes me shudder just thinking

1120
00:57:23,160 --> 00:57:26,680
Speaker 1: about it. But anyway, we could do that maybe and

1121
00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:30,800
Speaker 1: like thicken up their bones so that maybe it wouldn't

1122
00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:33,280
Speaker 1: matter if they're in an environment where you would expect

1123
00:57:33,360 --> 00:57:36,200
Speaker 1: bones to atrophy because they were already stronger to begin with.

1124
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:39,200
Speaker 1: Like maybe that'll be enough. I really don't know. For

1125
00:57:39,280 --> 00:57:41,440
Speaker 1: this one. I kind of come up at a loss

1126
00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:43,160
Speaker 1: with radiation. I felt like it was maybe a little

1127
00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:44,280
Speaker 1: easier to imagine.

1128
00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:46,960
Speaker 2: Well, my question is like who's working on this stuff?

1129
00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:49,760
Speaker 2: Like can you do any kind of ethical research here

1130
00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:53,760
Speaker 2: in terms of like bioengineering humans or are people doing

1131
00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:57,240
Speaker 2: like bioengineering on rats and dogs and stuff, or just

1132
00:57:57,280 --> 00:57:59,720
Speaker 2: sort of theoretical. Is it possible to do research in

1133
00:57:59,720 --> 00:58:00,320
Speaker 2: this area.

1134
00:58:00,560 --> 00:58:04,840
Speaker 1: So with new Crisper technology, it's easier for us to

1135
00:58:04,920 --> 00:58:08,560
Speaker 1: tinker with genetic information, so to like cut bits out

1136
00:58:08,600 --> 00:58:10,800
Speaker 1: and replace it with other bits that we want, And

1137
00:58:10,880 --> 00:58:14,440
Speaker 1: we have used that to help out with some diseases,

1138
00:58:14,480 --> 00:58:17,640
Speaker 1: so for example, sickle cell anemia. By tinkering with some

1139
00:58:17,760 --> 00:58:20,520
Speaker 1: genes using Crisper CAST nine, we've been able to like

1140
00:58:20,560 --> 00:58:23,720
Speaker 1: make people's lives way better. So we are getting better

1141
00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:27,000
Speaker 1: at using some of these techniques in humans, which is

1142
00:58:27,040 --> 00:58:29,320
Speaker 1: a big step, I think, And so we're getting a

1143
00:58:29,320 --> 00:58:32,480
Speaker 1: little outside of my expertise. I think. The first time

1144
00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:36,680
Speaker 1: that technique was used on babies in a way that

1145
00:58:36,840 --> 00:58:41,480
Speaker 1: it would be transmitted across generations was done in China,

1146
00:58:41,640 --> 00:58:43,880
Speaker 1: and they got thrown in jail for that because the

1147
00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:46,280
Speaker 1: whole international community was like no, no, no, no, no.

1148
00:58:46,640 --> 00:58:48,560
Speaker 1: We were not okay. None of us are okay with this.

1149
00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:51,800
Speaker 1: You jumped way too far ahead. And so I think

1150
00:58:51,880 --> 00:58:55,200
Speaker 1: that research is gonna not move forward, I hope for

1151
00:58:55,240 --> 00:58:55,680
Speaker 1: a while.

1152
00:58:55,840 --> 00:58:57,280
Speaker 2: And if I could press on that for a moment,

1153
00:58:57,360 --> 00:58:59,840
Speaker 2: like I've always wondered, is there a crisp understanding of

1154
00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:02,120
Speaker 2: why it's okay to breed humans by selecting your mate

1155
00:59:02,120 --> 00:59:04,720
Speaker 2: but not by editing their genome is the only answer

1156
00:59:04,880 --> 00:59:07,720
Speaker 2: just like, well, this is a dull enough strategy that

1157
00:59:07,800 --> 00:59:09,920
Speaker 2: you can't like feel too bad if you mess up

1158
00:59:09,960 --> 00:59:12,360
Speaker 2: and you know your kid doesn't have the genetics you

1159
00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:15,440
Speaker 2: want it, or something like is it just the power

1160
00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:19,360
Speaker 2: of this technology to create horrendous outcomes?

1161
00:59:19,840 --> 00:59:22,880
Speaker 1: I think it's a couple things. So one thing is

1162
00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:24,960
Speaker 1: that we as a species have a lot of experience

1163
00:59:25,440 --> 00:59:28,800
Speaker 1: with mating and having babies and seeing how that turns out.

1164
00:59:29,240 --> 00:59:32,520
Speaker 1: But when you start tinkering with things at the genetic level,

1165
00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:35,160
Speaker 1: things don't always go the way you think they're going to.

1166
00:59:35,240 --> 00:59:37,040
Speaker 1: You know, you think you understand a system, you tinker

1167
00:59:37,080 --> 00:59:41,080
Speaker 1: with it, and maybe that child will have catastrophic issues

1168
00:59:41,080 --> 00:59:43,480
Speaker 1: they'll have to deal with for their whole life because

1169
00:59:43,520 --> 00:59:45,880
Speaker 1: you decided to tinker with their DNA, but just.

1170
00:59:45,840 --> 00:59:48,160
Speaker 2: To play devil's advocate. The same thing can happen when

1171
00:59:48,160 --> 00:59:50,440
Speaker 2: you choose your mate, Like, for example, if you're in

1172
00:59:50,440 --> 00:59:54,640
Speaker 2: a small community and you choose to select your partner

1173
00:59:54,960 --> 00:59:58,720
Speaker 2: inside your community, you open them up to possible conditions

1174
00:59:58,720 --> 01:00:02,360
Speaker 2: that come from genetic populations, you know, like I'm an

1175
01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:05,840
Speaker 2: Ashkenazi Jew. I know that tasax syndrome would have been

1176
01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:08,760
Speaker 2: a real risk if my partner was also an Ashkenazi Jew.

1177
01:00:09,280 --> 01:00:11,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so I don't think Zach would mind me

1178
01:00:11,480 --> 01:00:13,560
Speaker 1: admitting that he's a carrier and that I had to

1179
01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:16,080
Speaker 1: get that test because that was a real risk for us.

1180
01:00:16,440 --> 01:00:18,520
Speaker 1: But I think that is why we try to have

1181
01:00:19,280 --> 01:00:22,680
Speaker 1: genetic testing, so that you can be aware of these

1182
01:00:22,720 --> 01:00:26,120
Speaker 1: potential issues and make decisions based on that to avoid

1183
01:00:26,160 --> 01:00:28,840
Speaker 1: these worst case scenarios. And so I think we would

1184
01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:31,000
Speaker 1: say we don't want to stop people from marrying and

1185
01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:33,440
Speaker 1: having children with the people that they love, but we

1186
01:00:33,520 --> 01:00:36,280
Speaker 1: do whatever we can to minimize the negative impacts of that.

1187
01:00:36,600 --> 01:00:41,000
Speaker 1: I think trying to improve a bad situation you find

1188
01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:44,320
Speaker 1: yourself in is very different than trying to tinker to

1189
01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:47,920
Speaker 1: get something better that you would ideally have. And so,

1190
01:00:48,080 --> 01:00:49,760
Speaker 1: and I think that leads to the second problem with

1191
01:00:49,800 --> 01:00:52,680
Speaker 1: genetic engineering is that there's this concern that people who

1192
01:00:52,760 --> 01:00:55,480
Speaker 1: can afford to tinker with their kids are going to

1193
01:00:55,600 --> 01:00:57,960
Speaker 1: end up having like what often gets called in the

1194
01:00:58,000 --> 01:01:01,320
Speaker 1: press as like designer babies, and that we're going to

1195
01:01:01,520 --> 01:01:06,520
Speaker 1: further see inequality sort of exacerbated by this kind of thing.

1196
01:01:06,800 --> 01:01:08,280
Speaker 2: Right, Like I want my kid to be a long

1197
01:01:08,360 --> 01:01:11,640
Speaker 2: jump champion, so I'm going to give them this genetic package,

1198
01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:13,920
Speaker 2: which costs a million dollars or whatever. Yeah, that does

1199
01:01:13,960 --> 01:01:17,200
Speaker 2: seem like terrifying. I'm already terrified to make any sort

1200
01:01:17,200 --> 01:01:18,920
Speaker 2: of decisions from my kids, like oh, we're going to

1201
01:01:18,920 --> 01:01:20,920
Speaker 2: this high school or that high school, or you have

1202
01:01:20,920 --> 01:01:22,480
Speaker 2: to eat this way or that way, and I wonder

1203
01:01:22,560 --> 01:01:24,800
Speaker 2: that by the consequences for the rest of their lives.

1204
01:01:24,960 --> 01:01:27,320
Speaker 2: So yeah, I'm glad to not have to have made

1205
01:01:27,360 --> 01:01:28,440
Speaker 2: some genetic decisions.

1206
01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:30,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, and we should have, like you know, maybe

1207
01:01:30,840 --> 01:01:32,720
Speaker 1: maybe one day we'll have a bioethicist on the show

1208
01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:34,920
Speaker 1: to talk about this stuff, because it's complicated and I

1209
01:01:34,920 --> 01:01:36,560
Speaker 1: feel like the more you think about it, the more

1210
01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:38,280
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, but it would be great if we

1211
01:01:38,320 --> 01:01:40,320
Speaker 1: could do that. But it would be catastrophic if we

1212
01:01:40,320 --> 01:01:42,360
Speaker 1: could do that. And like, you know, there are people

1213
01:01:42,360 --> 01:01:44,400
Speaker 1: who spend their whole lives thinking about this much and

1214
01:01:44,480 --> 01:01:45,640
Speaker 1: much more detail than I did.

1215
01:01:45,920 --> 01:01:48,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the technology will be available eventually and then

1216
01:01:48,800 --> 01:01:50,480
Speaker 2: we're going to figure out what to do about that.

1217
01:01:50,720 --> 01:01:53,160
Speaker 2: But yes, let's have an expert on who actually knows

1218
01:01:53,840 --> 01:01:54,400
Speaker 2: this stuff.

1219
01:01:54,600 --> 01:01:56,640
Speaker 1: So, staying on genetic engineering for a second, there are

1220
01:01:56,680 --> 01:01:59,040
Speaker 1: folks who argue that we need to start doing this

1221
01:01:59,120 --> 01:02:02,200
Speaker 1: kind of engineering now because it's really important that we

1222
01:02:02,320 --> 01:02:05,040
Speaker 1: start having self sustaining settlements on Mars as soon as

1223
01:02:05,080 --> 01:02:07,959
Speaker 1: we can, because we never know when something catastrophic could

1224
01:02:08,000 --> 01:02:10,160
Speaker 1: happen to the Earth, and it seems like a lot

1225
01:02:10,200 --> 01:02:12,880
Speaker 1: of catastrophic things are happening lately. So it's important that

1226
01:02:12,960 --> 01:02:15,760
Speaker 1: as soon as we can we get people living on

1227
01:02:15,800 --> 01:02:18,600
Speaker 1: Mars in a way that can happen sustainably. And so

1228
01:02:18,760 --> 01:02:22,120
Speaker 1: maybe that should make all of our ethical concerns, those

1229
01:02:22,120 --> 01:02:24,960
Speaker 1: concerns should be dwarfed compared to the importance of keeping

1230
01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:28,240
Speaker 1: the human species going. I don't personally buy that argument,

1231
01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:31,960
Speaker 1: but you know, there are these emerging debates about the

1232
01:02:32,000 --> 01:02:34,480
Speaker 1: ethics of doing it, and how those ethics sort of

1233
01:02:34,600 --> 01:02:36,760
Speaker 1: change if we think that this is something we need

1234
01:02:36,800 --> 01:02:39,720
Speaker 1: to be doing quickly for the safety of our species.

1235
01:02:39,800 --> 01:02:41,880
Speaker 2: Wow, it's so hard to imagine what the future of

1236
01:02:41,960 --> 01:02:45,760
Speaker 2: humanity holds. It can go in so many different directions.

1237
01:02:45,600 --> 01:02:48,120
Speaker 1: And because I'm a pessimist, I will go ahead and

1238
01:02:48,200 --> 01:02:50,960
Speaker 1: note the one final way you can get humans that

1239
01:02:51,000 --> 01:02:53,840
Speaker 1: are well adapted to the Martian surface, which is natural selection,

1240
01:02:54,480 --> 01:02:57,200
Speaker 1: which every once in a while you'll see noted in

1241
01:02:57,280 --> 01:02:59,240
Speaker 1: the literature as like, oh, well, you know, after enough

1242
01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:02,200
Speaker 1: generations have people who are well adapted to the Martian surface,

1243
01:03:02,600 --> 01:03:05,680
Speaker 1: And of course that means many, many people will die

1244
01:03:06,040 --> 01:03:08,560
Speaker 1: and root, and it's not even one hundred percent certain

1245
01:03:08,600 --> 01:03:11,560
Speaker 1: that we have the right kind of genetic variability where

1246
01:03:11,600 --> 01:03:15,040
Speaker 1: eventually there will be people who can survive you know,

1247
01:03:15,160 --> 01:03:17,800
Speaker 1: radiation on Mars are living in forty percent gravity, and

1248
01:03:17,840 --> 01:03:20,160
Speaker 1: so we might just lose a bunch of people, which

1249
01:03:20,200 --> 01:03:21,560
Speaker 1: sounds really awful.

1250
01:03:21,720 --> 01:03:23,600
Speaker 2: Also, don't you assume that you start from a pretty

1251
01:03:23,680 --> 01:03:26,080
Speaker 2: large population, Like if you start from ten people, it's

1252
01:03:26,160 --> 01:03:29,280
Speaker 2: unlikely you're randomly going to have the right genetic mutation.

1253
01:03:29,360 --> 01:03:31,480
Speaker 2: You need to start from a pretty big population, right,

1254
01:03:31,760 --> 01:03:33,720
Speaker 2: which means a lot of people are going to die,

1255
01:03:33,760 --> 01:03:34,720
Speaker 2: like big numbers.

1256
01:03:34,760 --> 01:03:38,960
Speaker 1: Wow. Agreed, Yes, you know, But you know Musk would

1257
01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:40,920
Speaker 1: argue with Starship he can get a million people there

1258
01:03:40,920 --> 01:03:43,000
Speaker 1: in thirty years, and he can, you know, keep sending people.

1259
01:03:43,320 --> 01:03:45,640
Speaker 1: I should clarify, Musk is not the one who has

1260
01:03:45,640 --> 01:03:48,040
Speaker 1: said we're going to let natural selection solve the problem.

1261
01:03:48,240 --> 01:03:50,040
Speaker 1: He hasn't been clear on how this problem's going to

1262
01:03:50,080 --> 01:03:54,920
Speaker 1: get solved. Free market somehow, free market something something. The

1263
01:03:54,960 --> 01:03:57,320
Speaker 1: next thing we're going to talk about wouldn't solve the

1264
01:03:57,360 --> 01:04:02,280
Speaker 1: partial gravity problem, but would solve problems related to radiation

1265
01:04:02,400 --> 01:04:06,840
Speaker 1: to some extent, and depressurization. So the problem with depressurization

1266
01:04:06,960 --> 01:04:08,880
Speaker 1: is that when human bodies go from an area of

1267
01:04:08,960 --> 01:04:12,160
Speaker 1: higher pressure to an area of lower pressure, the nitrogen

1268
01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:14,560
Speaker 1: bubbles out of our blood, and if it gets stuck

1269
01:04:14,600 --> 01:04:17,560
Speaker 1: in your joints, it causes the bends because it hurts

1270
01:04:17,600 --> 01:04:20,000
Speaker 1: so much that you bend over in pain. If those

1271
01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:22,400
Speaker 1: bubbles get stuck in your lungs, you get the chokes,

1272
01:04:22,440 --> 01:04:24,760
Speaker 1: it's hard to breathe. If they get stuck in your

1273
01:04:24,800 --> 01:04:27,280
Speaker 1: nervous system, you get the staggers, You get these nervous

1274
01:04:27,280 --> 01:04:29,600
Speaker 1: system problems. But if it happens to you in space,

1275
01:04:29,640 --> 01:04:32,600
Speaker 1: you're just going to get the death, which unfortunately is

1276
01:04:32,640 --> 01:04:35,080
Speaker 1: what happened to the crew of Solute one they got

1277
01:04:35,080 --> 01:04:37,640
Speaker 1: exposed to the vacuum of space in the seventies. So,

1278
01:04:38,480 --> 01:04:42,800
Speaker 1: how do we make a Martian atmosphere thick enough, with

1279
01:04:42,960 --> 01:04:46,440
Speaker 1: enough pressure so that you could go outside without a

1280
01:04:46,480 --> 01:04:49,600
Speaker 1: spacesuit and you wouldn't have to worry about your habitat depressurizing,

1281
01:04:49,680 --> 01:04:51,760
Speaker 1: and Daniel, I think the only solution to that would

1282
01:04:51,760 --> 01:04:55,320
Speaker 1: be terraforming. Could you thicken up the atmosphere and the

1283
01:04:55,320 --> 01:04:59,200
Speaker 1: pressure enough by the proposals that I saw involved like

1284
01:04:59,280 --> 01:05:02,160
Speaker 1: sending nuclear weapons to the poles so that you could

1285
01:05:02,280 --> 01:05:06,240
Speaker 1: blow up the ice there, and that that ice would

1286
01:05:06,280 --> 01:05:09,000
Speaker 1: then distribute itself in the atmosphere and would thicken up

1287
01:05:09,040 --> 01:05:11,800
Speaker 1: the atmosphere, and that might even warm up the planets.

1288
01:05:12,120 --> 01:05:17,240
Speaker 1: Could that solve the atmosphere thickness problem and radiation or

1289
01:05:17,400 --> 01:05:19,120
Speaker 1: we just noking a planet for no reason.

1290
01:05:21,200 --> 01:05:24,200
Speaker 2: It's not an easy answer. Like Mars is like one

1291
01:05:24,280 --> 01:05:26,920
Speaker 2: percent of the Earth's atmosphere, so you'd need to increase

1292
01:05:26,960 --> 01:05:30,560
Speaker 2: the atmospheric pressure by a lot. And there definitely is

1293
01:05:30,760 --> 01:05:33,360
Speaker 2: CO two and the poles of Mars, and you could

1294
01:05:33,440 --> 01:05:35,880
Speaker 2: release some of it. But the problem is that if

1295
01:05:35,880 --> 01:05:38,040
Speaker 2: you release too much CO two then the atmosphere becomes

1296
01:05:38,080 --> 01:05:42,120
Speaker 2: poisonous to humans, and so it doesn't really solve the problem,

1297
01:05:42,160 --> 01:05:43,840
Speaker 2: and you'd need a lot of CO two. You need

1298
01:05:43,840 --> 01:05:45,760
Speaker 2: to like scoop up some of it from Venus and

1299
01:05:45,800 --> 01:05:48,440
Speaker 2: transfer it over to Mars, So this is not an

1300
01:05:48,480 --> 01:05:52,040
Speaker 2: easy way to manufacture the kind of atmosphere you want. Ideally,

1301
01:05:52,120 --> 01:05:54,560
Speaker 2: you want a huge amount of oxygen in the atmosphere

1302
01:05:54,720 --> 01:05:57,160
Speaker 2: so you can walk around without a suit, But oxygen

1303
01:05:57,240 --> 01:05:59,200
Speaker 2: is hard to make. You know, you basically need some

1304
01:05:59,240 --> 01:06:02,560
Speaker 2: sort of like micro trubes growing on Mars eating this

1305
01:06:02,680 --> 01:06:06,640
Speaker 2: theo too and producing oxygen. And my wife is a microbiologist,

1306
01:06:06,720 --> 01:06:10,160
Speaker 2: and she thinks that would take millions of years optimistically,

1307
01:06:10,400 --> 01:06:12,880
Speaker 2: And you know on Earth it took quite a long time.

1308
01:06:13,120 --> 01:06:14,920
Speaker 2: And the rocks are going to drink a lot of

1309
01:06:14,960 --> 01:06:17,600
Speaker 2: that oxygen before it even stays in the atmosphere. And

1310
01:06:17,680 --> 01:06:19,720
Speaker 2: we know that Mars is like likes to get rusty,

1311
01:06:19,760 --> 01:06:21,680
Speaker 2: and we don't know if you can gobble up more

1312
01:06:21,720 --> 01:06:25,200
Speaker 2: of that oxygen. So terraforming is not an easy solution,

1313
01:06:25,480 --> 01:06:27,520
Speaker 2: which is why I think this question is actually asking

1314
01:06:27,600 --> 01:06:29,800
Speaker 2: for another kind of solution, like what can we do

1315
01:06:29,880 --> 01:06:33,200
Speaker 2: to change ourselves so we can walk around in that

1316
01:06:33,240 --> 01:06:36,200
Speaker 2: one percent, Like could we engineer some sort of crazy

1317
01:06:36,360 --> 01:06:41,040
Speaker 2: high pressure skin that's basically like a suit, or change

1318
01:06:41,040 --> 01:06:44,200
Speaker 2: something fundamental about a biochemistry so we could just happily

1319
01:06:44,400 --> 01:06:46,320
Speaker 2: walk around in one percent atmosphere.

1320
01:06:46,880 --> 01:06:49,040
Speaker 1: Daniel nothing's coming to me. Do you have an answer?

1321
01:06:49,440 --> 01:06:52,520
Speaker 1: I mean, even if you had high pressure skin or like,

1322
01:06:52,520 --> 01:06:54,640
Speaker 1: what would high pressure skin be like, like you turn

1323
01:06:54,720 --> 01:06:56,000
Speaker 1: your skin to metal.

1324
01:06:56,200 --> 01:06:58,320
Speaker 2: Basically, I just have a natural suit, you know, as

1325
01:06:58,360 --> 01:07:00,520
Speaker 2: part of your body. It's not really an answer. Basically

1326
01:07:00,560 --> 01:07:02,480
Speaker 2: you're wearing a suit, but it's part of who you

1327
01:07:02,520 --> 01:07:05,240
Speaker 2: are now, So technically it might be a solution.

1328
01:07:05,480 --> 01:07:08,120
Speaker 1: But like, if you open your eyes or your mouth,

1329
01:07:08,120 --> 01:07:11,560
Speaker 1: aren't you exposing yeah, yourself to the pressure change? Like,

1330
01:07:12,200 --> 01:07:13,240
Speaker 1: I don't see this working.

1331
01:07:13,600 --> 01:07:15,320
Speaker 2: Look, I only solve the problem for a minute. I

1332
01:07:15,320 --> 01:07:16,240
Speaker 2: don't know's to lunch?

1333
01:07:16,400 --> 01:07:20,200
Speaker 1: You know, Well you got you know, incremental you gotta

1334
01:07:20,840 --> 01:07:23,320
Speaker 1: let the market something something exactly.

1335
01:07:23,360 --> 01:07:26,320
Speaker 2: The first candidate survived until lunchtime and then they depressureize.

1336
01:07:26,360 --> 01:07:28,160
Speaker 2: So let you know, we take a break and come

1337
01:07:28,200 --> 01:07:30,840
Speaker 2: back and tell the rest of the problem another time. Yeah,

1338
01:07:30,880 --> 01:07:33,040
Speaker 2: I think the answer is that it's hard, right. Pressure

1339
01:07:33,160 --> 01:07:36,040
Speaker 2: is important, and we are just really not designed to

1340
01:07:36,120 --> 01:07:38,840
Speaker 2: survive in a low pressure environment. You're right. We exchange

1341
01:07:38,880 --> 01:07:42,320
Speaker 2: all sorts of fluids and materials with the environment, and

1342
01:07:42,600 --> 01:07:44,720
Speaker 2: so sething ourselves off from it is not really a solution,

1343
01:07:45,120 --> 01:07:47,160
Speaker 2: and it's hard to imagine well, what if we somehow,

1344
01:07:47,200 --> 01:07:49,600
Speaker 2: like inflated humans, we lived in a low pressure environment.

1345
01:07:49,720 --> 01:07:53,680
Speaker 2: I'm imagining like a completely different kind of biological being,

1346
01:07:53,760 --> 01:07:56,880
Speaker 2: you know, where, like your insides are actually at lower pressure.

1347
01:07:57,240 --> 01:08:00,400
Speaker 1: I can't imagine you'd be able to do that with

1348
01:08:00,520 --> 01:08:04,320
Speaker 1: current genetic variability that's like available, But I mean you could.

1349
01:08:04,400 --> 01:08:07,640
Speaker 1: I guess, like every generation you lower the pressure in

1350
01:08:07,680 --> 01:08:13,920
Speaker 1: the habitat, and whoever survives you work with that. But

1351
01:08:14,000 --> 01:08:17,240
Speaker 1: that would take a long time and would not be ethical.

1352
01:08:18,080 --> 01:08:21,920
Speaker 2: No, not even close to ethical. No, absolutely not. All right,

1353
01:08:21,960 --> 01:08:24,559
Speaker 2: so it sounds like we're not going to be adapted

1354
01:08:24,600 --> 01:08:27,360
Speaker 2: to living on the surface of Mars very soon, and

1355
01:08:27,439 --> 01:08:31,679
Speaker 2: even our craziest technological solutions are not really well suited

1356
01:08:31,680 --> 01:08:32,240
Speaker 2: to the task.

1357
01:08:32,560 --> 01:08:33,920
Speaker 1: I have to admit, I don't feel like we came

1358
01:08:33,960 --> 01:08:36,719
Speaker 1: up with any super satisfying answers. But let's go ahead

1359
01:08:36,760 --> 01:08:39,240
Speaker 1: and ask Lewis if he feels like we did the

1360
01:08:39,280 --> 01:08:39,960
Speaker 1: best we could.

1361
01:08:42,640 --> 01:08:44,400
Speaker 2: I'm terrified what kind of grade we're going to get.

1362
01:08:44,600 --> 01:08:48,480
Speaker 8: Thanks so much, Daniel and Kelly. I did not appreciate

1363
01:08:49,000 --> 01:08:52,759
Speaker 8: quite the cannon Williams. I was looking man, and I

1364
01:08:52,880 --> 01:08:56,960
Speaker 8: definitely get the message. I think I'm going to stick

1365
01:08:57,000 --> 01:08:59,240
Speaker 8: around on Earth for a little while longer.

1366
01:09:06,640 --> 01:09:10,479
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1367
01:09:10,520 --> 01:09:12,920
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1368
01:09:13,080 --> 01:09:15,840
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1369
01:09:16,040 --> 01:09:17,719
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1370
01:09:17,840 --> 01:09:20,800
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01:09:20,800 --> 01:09:23,800
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01:09:23,840 --> 01:09:24,240
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1373
01:09:24,439 --> 01:09:27,960
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1374
01:09:28,000 --> 01:09:30,840
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1375
01:09:30,640 --> 01:09:32,519
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01:09:32,560 --> 01:09:36,439
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