WEBVTT - Part One: Aqua Tofana: How to Kill Your Husband 0:00:00.960 --> 0:00:03.120 Hello, and welcome to Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff. 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:05.600 I'm your host, Margaret phil Joy. Sophie says that I 0:00:05.600 --> 0:00:07.360 have to start each episode with a joke in order 0:00:07.400 --> 0:00:12.400 to be part of the Cool Zone Media network of podcasts. Yeah, so, okay, 0:00:13.000 --> 0:00:15.160 let me tell you. I remember that detail of my 0:00:15.200 --> 0:00:19.119 contracts because I've got a photographic memory. It's just that 0:00:19.200 --> 0:00:25.000 i left the lens cap on bump. That's my joke. Okay. 0:00:25.239 --> 0:00:27.440 And today we've got a returning guest, the one and 0:00:27.520 --> 0:00:31.720 only Sharene Sharne. How are you hi, I'm okay, Hi, 0:00:31.760 --> 0:00:34.159 thanks for having me. Yeah, what do you? What do 0:00:34.240 --> 0:00:37.800 you do? How do you justify your existence? That's a 0:00:37.840 --> 0:00:40.199 hard question for me to answer right now. I've been 0:00:40.240 --> 0:00:43.400 going through a very extended existential crisis, like extended by 0:00:43.440 --> 0:00:46.840 like years. Uh oh, Now I feel guilty. It's fine. 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:49.839 I should know at this point how to answer that 0:00:49.880 --> 0:00:54.320 after all this time. But I uh, I make stuff 0:00:54.360 --> 0:00:58.520 and try every day to stay alive. But yeah, I've 0:00:58.720 --> 0:01:03.279 I write and wrecked and I can't say that I've 0:01:03.320 --> 0:01:05.320 done that in a while though. So there's what. There's 0:01:05.360 --> 0:01:07.600 what the imposter syndrome comes in. But you're not asking 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:09.360 me all these questions. This is not therapy. I do 0:01:09.440 --> 0:01:11.880 need therapists and want to shut up. Yeah, hotly, I 0:01:11.920 --> 0:01:13.840 was trying to get you to talk about your podcast 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:20.480 really quickly. Oh my podcast. I do co host a 0:01:20.520 --> 0:01:25.440 podcast called Ethnically Ambiguous. It's uh, it's evolved over the years. 0:01:25.440 --> 0:01:28.720 It used to be about news, and we do a 0:01:28.800 --> 0:01:32.520 lot of guests in tributes now because the news hurts. 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:38.000 That's true. Yeah, Sophie is our producer and is on 0:01:38.040 --> 0:01:41.360 the line too. How are you, Sophy? It's just Sophie. 0:01:42.800 --> 0:01:45.959 As we established ahead of this podcast, we do believe 0:01:46.000 --> 0:01:50.200 I have been cursed. So, um, if if you're listening 0:01:50.200 --> 0:01:52.040 and you are the one who did that, how dare you? 0:01:52.880 --> 0:01:56.360 How dare you? And I believe we could probably do 0:01:56.440 --> 0:01:59.160 like a Peter Pan thing where if everyone starts clapping 0:01:59.240 --> 0:02:02.480 and says I believe and Sophie, then that will help 0:02:02.520 --> 0:02:05.960 lift Sophie's curse. If everyone who listens to this does that, yeah, 0:02:06.040 --> 0:02:08.440 please let me know or if you know how to 0:02:08.520 --> 0:02:15.080 lift a curse? Um, you know? Yeah? Thanks Ian as 0:02:15.120 --> 0:02:18.840 our editor and on women wrote our theme music. So 0:02:19.480 --> 0:02:23.400 Sharine Margaret, I want to talk to you today about 0:02:23.440 --> 0:02:28.360 that sacred bond between two people the bond of marriage. No, 0:02:30.480 --> 0:02:33.960 in particular, we're going to talk about the most important 0:02:34.000 --> 0:02:38.440 part of any successful marriage, which is to say, today 0:02:38.520 --> 0:02:41.880 we're going to talk about women who have murdered their husbands. Okay, 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:44.120 that's better, Okay, cool, I'm doubt. I'm doubt. I'm doubt. 0:02:44.160 --> 0:02:48.400 I like that twist. I told Serene that we we 0:02:48.480 --> 0:02:51.360 picked this episode specifically for her, so it would have 0:02:51.400 --> 0:02:54.720 been particularly cruel. Yeah, yeah, I do. I mean the 0:02:54.800 --> 0:02:57.000 context behind that is that I do not like marriage, 0:02:57.240 --> 0:02:59.680 and that's all you need to know. Like, oh great, Well, 0:03:00.600 --> 0:03:03.440 today we are going to talk about a multi generational 0:03:03.480 --> 0:03:06.280 crew of which is roughly we'll call them, which is 0:03:06.760 --> 0:03:10.040 in seventeenth century Rome, who sold poison to anywhere between 0:03:10.080 --> 0:03:12.839 forty six and six women so that those women could 0:03:12.880 --> 0:03:16.520 murder their abuse of husbands during an arrow. And I 0:03:16.639 --> 0:03:25.760 know this is during an arrow where divorced wasn't a 0:03:25.800 --> 0:03:28.639 thing and where women were basically the legal property of men. 0:03:29.200 --> 0:03:31.560 And we're also going to talk about the the real 0:03:31.800 --> 0:03:34.440 and yet also mythical concoction that they came up with 0:03:34.480 --> 0:03:37.840 called aqua to fauna. And along the way, we're going 0:03:37.880 --> 0:03:40.400 o to also talk about skincare routines like bathing in 0:03:40.400 --> 0:03:43.920 the Blood of innocence. I do love skincare. All right, well, 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:47.800 this is some good stuff for you today. So everyone 0:03:47.840 --> 0:03:49.880 buckle up for the How to Kill Your Husband episode, 0:03:49.880 --> 0:03:52.320 which we're going to call the how to Kill your Husband. 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:53.880 We're just gonna call it how to Kill your Husband 0:03:53.920 --> 0:03:56.080 and see if we get in trouble. M cool. Cool, 0:03:57.360 --> 0:03:59.160 So first we have to talk about whenever we talk 0:03:59.200 --> 0:04:00.800 about the cool things people did, we have to talk 0:04:00.800 --> 0:04:03.800 about the bad things that they're going against. Right, So 0:04:05.320 --> 0:04:09.640 marriage m hm, the history of marriage in Europe, really 0:04:09.680 --> 0:04:13.440 anywhere that's been controlled by Catholicism or even more importantly, patriarchy. 0:04:13.600 --> 0:04:16.360 But the research I did for this episode was primarily 0:04:16.360 --> 0:04:20.560 about Europe. It's dark as fun, it's so dark. The 0:04:20.600 --> 0:04:24.080 history of marriage is so bad. Italy didn't legalize divorce 0:04:24.160 --> 0:04:32.520 until nineteen seventy. What, Yeah, it was way late three 0:04:32.600 --> 0:04:36.799 years ago. Yeah, No, it feels like thirty years ago. Yeah, 0:04:36.880 --> 0:04:39.200 it feels like yeah, you know what I mean, the 0:04:39.240 --> 0:04:45.280 real ones now, okay, yeah, Spain didn't legalize it until what. 0:04:46.480 --> 0:04:51.480 Ireland didn't legalize marriage until nine six. I was alive 0:04:52.960 --> 0:04:56.359 in both of them. Wait, what was the second one, 0:04:57.160 --> 0:05:02.080 I'm I'm spring Chicken, but that was way to nineties 0:05:02.120 --> 0:05:05.760 six and and the reason for I mean the reason 0:05:05.800 --> 0:05:09.360 for those three is all Catholicism, but but Ireland in particular, 0:05:10.040 --> 0:05:14.040 because they the Catholic Church that is very clever thing 0:05:14.040 --> 0:05:16.880 where they position themselves as like the anti colonial choice 0:05:16.880 --> 0:05:20.760 for the Irish rebels right against that damnable Protestant England. 0:05:21.040 --> 0:05:23.240 And so when Ireland got it's like kind of independence, 0:05:23.400 --> 0:05:25.920 the Catholic Church was like, hell, yeah, now you're free 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:28.360 from England and you can just serve the pope and 0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:31.640 no one's allowed to enjoy sex anymore. Um, and kind 0:05:31.680 --> 0:05:34.920 of instituted a theocracy, which is not what we're talking 0:05:34.960 --> 0:05:36.960 about today. But I always want to get that off 0:05:37.000 --> 0:05:42.160 my chest. Yeah, yeah, I I I don't like marriage 0:05:42.160 --> 0:05:43.919 for a lot of reasons. One of them is that 0:05:43.960 --> 0:05:49.760 it's usually really based in religion and control and it's 0:05:49.800 --> 0:05:52.200 just become this archaic thing we've gotten used to in 0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:57.719 my opinion. But um, that's just my two cents. Because 0:05:57.760 --> 0:06:02.000 also not all of the hashtag all religions, Um, but 0:06:02.960 --> 0:06:05.680 I'm not. I don't really believe in anything, but I 0:06:05.720 --> 0:06:09.320 will say that in the Muslim faith, the woman keeps 0:06:09.360 --> 0:06:12.880 her name because she's not necessary, because why would you 0:06:12.920 --> 0:06:14.680 take your name if she's not related to you? Is 0:06:14.720 --> 0:06:16.720 the logic behind that, Like she's not your sister, she's 0:06:16.720 --> 0:06:18.400 not your mom, So she's going to keep her maiden 0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:22.359 name or her just her name, and she can divorce 0:06:22.400 --> 0:06:25.560 anytime she wants. Like it's in the it's in, it's allowed, 0:06:26.000 --> 0:06:29.680 you know. So I'm not saying every religion is that way. 0:06:29.800 --> 0:06:32.520 I think it's become. I think the institution of marriage 0:06:32.520 --> 0:06:36.000 itself has become something really out of our control, regardless 0:06:36.000 --> 0:06:40.599 of religion. Yeah, totally. I started trying to look up more, 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:43.080 you know, like I was looking up divorce in Islam, 0:06:43.200 --> 0:06:47.480 and you know, finding overall a much better history than 0:06:47.720 --> 0:06:51.240 divorce into various Christian faiths. Although ironically, the Puritans, who 0:06:51.279 --> 0:06:53.400 hated sex and all this other ship, they were more 0:06:53.640 --> 0:06:58.120 pro divorce then the Catholics. Maybe hating sex has something 0:06:58.160 --> 0:07:00.880 to do with that, I wonder, Oh yeah, maybe, oh yeah, 0:07:00.920 --> 0:07:06.719 they're like, oh yeah, I get divorced, you can't funk anymore. Totally. Um, alright, 0:07:06.880 --> 0:07:10.600 so divorce hard. In a lot of times in places 0:07:10.800 --> 0:07:12.920 and a lot of places, men were allowed to divorce 0:07:13.000 --> 0:07:17.080 their their wives but not vice versa. So like, because 0:07:17.120 --> 0:07:19.080 the woman is property, the man can be like I'm 0:07:19.080 --> 0:07:21.680 done with this property, but the property can't be like 0:07:21.720 --> 0:07:24.520 I'm done with my owner, you know. M hmm makes sense. 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:28.200 Yeah and yeah, so okay, throughout history you've got this 0:07:28.200 --> 0:07:30.679 this ship that says wives of the legal property their husbands. 0:07:30.680 --> 0:07:34.480 In medieval England it was called coverture, which means that 0:07:34.520 --> 0:07:37.760 the wife's legal identity is subsumed by her husband's and 0:07:37.800 --> 0:07:40.840 so an unmarried woman could own property, but a married 0:07:40.880 --> 0:07:43.200 woman couldn't because if once you're married at all goes 0:07:43.240 --> 0:07:48.080 to the husband. Wow, that is backwards as ship, I know. 0:07:48.160 --> 0:07:49.920 So it's like, why the funk would anyone get married? 0:07:50.800 --> 0:07:53.720 And mostly it's because of arranged marriages and being forced to. 0:07:54.320 --> 0:07:57.280 So there wasn't any like benefit. There wasn't the excuse 0:07:57.320 --> 0:07:59.760 of like tax breaks, right like back then, there wasn't 0:07:59.760 --> 0:08:02.600 really like why wouldn't woman get married if she had 0:08:02.600 --> 0:08:07.440 the choice? I you know, everything that I was reading 0:08:07.520 --> 0:08:10.880 just basically had the like you kind of like couldn't. 0:08:11.080 --> 0:08:12.840 It was very hard to Also in many ways it's 0:08:12.920 --> 0:08:14.960 very hard to go through life as an unmarried woman. 0:08:15.040 --> 0:08:17.240 And I think this, I think it does change like 0:08:17.360 --> 0:08:20.960 century to century and like country to country, like exactly 0:08:21.200 --> 0:08:22.960 how free people are kind of in the same way 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:26.040 that I feel like whenever I read about like historical gayness, 0:08:27.000 --> 0:08:29.200 it's so different. It will be like twenty years of 0:08:29.240 --> 0:08:31.920 awesome on this island and then everyone dies and that, 0:08:32.080 --> 0:08:34.120 you know, it's like and I feel like the rights 0:08:34.120 --> 0:08:36.719 of women, um, as best as I can tell, in 0:08:36.800 --> 0:08:39.400 medieval Europe would would fluctuate a lot. But I think 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:43.000 people were getting married because they're you're like fucking told to. Basically, 0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:45.000 it's just like the path of life that was laid 0:08:45.040 --> 0:08:47.640 out for you. Yeah. And I think you also literally 0:08:47.640 --> 0:08:51.120 don't have a choice in a lot of cases. Um. 0:08:51.160 --> 0:08:54.480 And so so English law does this thing. And there's 0:08:54.520 --> 0:08:56.960 this problem where if English law does this thing, then 0:08:57.000 --> 0:08:59.319 the rest of the fucking world's law does this thing. 0:08:59.440 --> 0:09:01.800 Because I don't know if you knew this shream, but 0:09:01.920 --> 0:09:07.240 England hasn't always stayed on its island, Oh really, has 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:12.920 it go other places? English people been places they don't belong. Yeah, well, 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:14.560 you know, and they showed up as tourists and took 0:09:14.559 --> 0:09:17.319 some pictures and went home and then um, for some 0:09:17.360 --> 0:09:19.720 weird reason, when they showed up as tourists. All the 0:09:19.720 --> 0:09:25.319 other countries swore allegiance to their monarchy and um anyway 0:09:25.559 --> 0:09:28.400 with all colonization and ship their bullshit legal institutions get 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:31.160 inherited by legal systems all around the world, including the US. 0:09:32.080 --> 0:09:35.560 And in the US all coverture wasn't really challenged until 0:09:35.600 --> 0:09:38.640 the nineteenth century, and it lingers in legal codes today 0:09:38.960 --> 0:09:43.240 still in various places, but state by state, each state 0:09:43.360 --> 0:09:47.760 slowly got rid of coverture. Louisiana, I'm the stand in 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:50.920 for the dummies in the room. What is coverture? Oh? Sorry, 0:09:50.960 --> 0:09:55.160 So that's the the idea that the wife's legal identity 0:09:55.200 --> 0:09:58.200 is absumed by the husband. Okay, got it. And so 0:09:58.240 --> 0:10:00.480 it's it's it's a little bit like because the wife 0:10:00.559 --> 0:10:03.120 is the property, but it's a little bit like the 0:10:03.160 --> 0:10:08.040 wife doesn't exist like legally, you know, it kind of disappears. Yeah. Yeah. 0:10:08.640 --> 0:10:12.840 Louisiana was the last state to get rid of coverture. Nine. 0:10:12.960 --> 0:10:16.400 They finally got rid of it and in the Supreme 0:10:16.400 --> 0:10:20.520 Court ruled it federally unconstitutional. And I'm currently I'm hoping 0:10:20.559 --> 0:10:22.520 that the current Supreme Court is not listening to this 0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:26.640 podcast at getting any ideas. Yes, I hope not, Sophie. 0:10:26.760 --> 0:10:29.000 Can we add a legal disclaimer that anyone who is 0:10:29.000 --> 0:10:31.320 currently serving on the Supreme Court or who determines what 0:10:31.400 --> 0:10:33.320 cases are heard by the Supreme Court isn't allowed to 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:36.960 listen to this episode. I think you just did all right. 0:10:37.440 --> 0:10:40.959 If you are listening and you are on the Supreme Court, 0:10:41.040 --> 0:10:43.640 you have broken the law and you should report directly 0:10:43.720 --> 0:10:50.120 to jail. Also, most of you fuck off. Yeah. Non 0:10:50.160 --> 0:10:53.880 English conquered areas also managed to have similar ship because 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:56.360 of other like kind of internal colonization of Europe. You 0:10:56.360 --> 0:10:59.880 have the Napoleonic Code which spread throughout Europe, which may 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:03.480 women the property of husbands as it went. Ironically, the 0:11:03.559 --> 0:11:07.359 Napoleonic Code, I think also like spread legalization of homosexuality, 0:11:07.400 --> 0:11:11.559 but it also spread anyway, makes bag double edged. French 0:11:11.559 --> 0:11:13.560 women didn't get the right to work outside the home 0:11:13.800 --> 0:11:20.559 without their husband's permission until nineteen wow, famously liberal or 0:11:20.600 --> 0:11:23.680 I guess famously neutral. Switzerland didn't offer marriage equality until 0:11:24.800 --> 0:11:29.640 with like a super narrow vote that is unsettling. I know, 0:11:29.800 --> 0:11:32.080 it was like it was like fifty three or fifty 0:11:32.080 --> 0:11:35.240 six percent of the population was like, yeah, let's let's 0:11:35.240 --> 0:11:38.400 make women equal in marriage. Yeah, we're always just like, oh, 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:41.959 that place is fine, they're neutral, nothing bad happens over there. 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:48.920 They make pocket knives, yeah, exactly, and hide all the money. Okay. Um, 0:11:48.960 --> 0:11:51.320 So in the US, women didn't have the right to 0:11:51.360 --> 0:11:54.160 open credit card accounts, or rather, they could be denied 0:11:54.240 --> 0:11:56.480 open credit card accounts if they don't have their husband's 0:11:56.480 --> 0:12:02.040 permission or whatever until guess what year I mean at 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:08.319 this point Okay, well, well it was actually I kind 0:12:08.320 --> 0:12:12.240 of set you up. I was really thinking the worst 0:12:12.280 --> 0:12:16.240 of humanity, which is fine usually usually that's true. Yeah. 0:12:16.640 --> 0:12:20.640 In n seventy four, the Equal Credit Opportunity Act prevents 0:12:20.679 --> 0:12:23.920 creditors from discriminating against people based on race, sex, or 0:12:23.960 --> 0:12:28.840 marital status. And even then, the thing about sex and 0:12:28.880 --> 0:12:31.240 marital status was literally slipped into the bill at the 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:34.360 last minute. There was a congress person named Lyndy Boggs 0:12:34.360 --> 0:12:37.200 who hand wrote it onto the bill and made photo 0:12:37.200 --> 0:12:40.040 copies to pass out and was like, oh, I'm sure 0:12:40.080 --> 0:12:42.720 this was just an oversight that you made this Credit 0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:46.640 Opportunity Act and didn't include women in marital status in it, right, 0:12:47.160 --> 0:12:50.680 And they were like okay, fine, and they passed the bill. Wow. 0:12:51.720 --> 0:12:54.600 Interesting critical support for someone I know nothing else about 0:12:55.280 --> 0:13:01.120 bog BLUs. So most of the past thousand years or 0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:04.760 so Western women again, at least Western women. That's what 0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:08.400 I've looked at in the context of this particular episode 0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:11.800 ship run of It. When it comes to marriage, there's 0:13:11.800 --> 0:13:14.600 this essay that I think you Sharene would like. It's 0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:17.480 from nineteen o seven and it's by Voltering Declaire, and 0:13:17.480 --> 0:13:21.080 it's called those who marry do ill Oh yeah, that 0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:24.800 sounds sick. Yeah, And it was a response to there 0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:28.920 was like this like debate and someone else presented those 0:13:28.920 --> 0:13:31.720 who marry do Well, and so she was like, Nah, 0:13:31.880 --> 0:13:37.960 those who marry do ill well Epic seven. That's that's 0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:42.600 a good Who's it by Vulturing Declare one Future Friend 0:13:42.640 --> 0:13:45.400 of the Pod Vulturing Declaire. She wants um. She's like 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:47.520 against the prison system, and so when someone tries to 0:13:47.559 --> 0:13:50.679 assassinate her, she like doesn't call the cops on him 0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:52.960 even though he shot her, and then like gets handled 0:13:52.960 --> 0:13:55.440 in other ways and all this ship Um, I don't 0:13:55.440 --> 0:13:58.280 think he disappears or anything. Anyway. I don't know enough 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:00.800 about that story yet because I haven't researched that episode yet. 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:04.280 But Future Friend of the Yeah, that's a little crumb 0:14:04.360 --> 0:14:08.439 for later. Okay, And so if you know this show, 0:14:08.520 --> 0:14:10.280 you know, if there's a bad set of laws and 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:13.440 social practices, there are people fighting against it. And how 0:14:13.480 --> 0:14:16.040 do you think people fought against marriage shrine when divorce 0:14:16.160 --> 0:14:22.320 wasn't an option assuming they're already married or like, I mean, 0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:28.200 the only logical like solution seems like they would have 0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:31.800 to kill their husbands. Yeah, poison. Poison is a really 0:14:31.920 --> 0:14:36.880 um women solve the problem of marriage with poison. Hell yeah. So, 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:39.840 but like, honestly, like really think about it. What was 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:44.960 the choice? There wasn't like not all murder. Actually I 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:55.160 shouldn't say that, but I think, uh, when you push 0:14:55.160 --> 0:14:58.160 people against the wall, this isn't in context of so 0:14:58.200 --> 0:15:00.880 many things, so many things, but people will do things 0:15:00.880 --> 0:15:03.960 that they wouldn't normally do. Uh, And everyone's capable of 0:15:04.000 --> 0:15:06.080 the same amount of things. You know, no one's like 0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:11.360 born unless it's like actually like a chemical thing. But 0:15:13.320 --> 0:15:16.280 I think anything that you see someone do and you're like, 0:15:16.320 --> 0:15:18.200 oh my god, you can also do that because you're 0:15:18.200 --> 0:15:20.960 like you're the same species and you have the capability 0:15:21.000 --> 0:15:24.680 of like, in my opinion, anything can push you to 0:15:24.800 --> 0:15:28.800 the edge. Yeah, you know, so my point is I 0:15:28.800 --> 0:15:31.120 support this kind of murder. Yeah, and that's all I'm 0:15:31.120 --> 0:15:33.240 gonna say. I mean, I I am putting them on 0:15:33.280 --> 0:15:37.200 my show, cool people who did cool stuff. So no, 0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:39.000 but that that makes a lot of sense. And even 0:15:39.040 --> 0:15:41.600 that point about anyone can do any of these things 0:15:41.720 --> 0:15:43.680 is worth thinking about also from the other point of 0:15:43.760 --> 0:15:46.200 view of like, you know, when when we do episodes 0:15:46.200 --> 0:15:48.880 that are about like people who like organized and did 0:15:48.920 --> 0:15:51.320 all this crazy ship that is a little bit more 0:15:51.360 --> 0:15:54.880 above boord and a little bit less murder. Um, that's 0:15:54.880 --> 0:15:56.880 stuff we can do, you know, And I like, I 0:15:56.920 --> 0:15:58.960 do a history podcast not to be like all the 0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:01.280 cool people are dead and everyone to listen as this sucks, 0:16:01.960 --> 0:16:03.960 you know. But like I mean, it's hard for me 0:16:04.000 --> 0:16:07.400 to remember that even like I just said it out loud, 0:16:07.680 --> 0:16:10.520 like soundly, like I really believe that I was saying. 0:16:10.760 --> 0:16:13.360 But it's hard for me to believe that like real 0:16:14.240 --> 0:16:16.840 change can happen because you hear about all these revolutionaries 0:16:16.840 --> 0:16:19.840 and you hear about people that were like fighting in 0:16:19.920 --> 0:16:22.840 a much more impressive time, and you're like, wow, those 0:16:22.880 --> 0:16:26.320 are badasses, and you forget that you can do the 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:32.280 same thing. Um, I forget anyway for myself because I 0:16:32.280 --> 0:16:36.400 think we get a little bit complacent. And also I 0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:40.280 think like history in general makes things seem really romantic 0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:47.840 and like far away. So yeah, I think reminding ourselves 0:16:47.880 --> 0:16:50.680 that we are just as capable, if not more so, 0:16:51.000 --> 0:16:53.480 if we wanted to be. But it's just about wanting 0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:57.240 to be, and it's about executing executing that want, executing 0:16:57.320 --> 0:17:04.280 something something. Wow, I did not even set that up. Yeah, no, no, 0:17:04.400 --> 0:17:06.920 and it's such a I don't know. That's an important point. 0:17:07.000 --> 0:17:09.600 And and I will say the institution of marriage is 0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:13.280 still not inherently great, but is a different structure than 0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:15.960 it was before, and divorce is available to more people. 0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:20.000 Um So I'm not advocating. I'm just describing what people 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:22.720 who had their backs up against the wall I chose 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:27.480 to do. So. Medieval Italy had this reputation that may 0:17:27.560 --> 0:17:30.560 or may not have been deserved, of being fucking obsessed 0:17:30.560 --> 0:17:35.520 with poison. Supposedly, Medieval and Renaissance Italy had in whole 0:17:35.640 --> 0:17:39.600 poison factories. The authorities were like constantly testing poison and 0:17:39.640 --> 0:17:44.719 antidotes on prisoners and animals. Italian perfumers had side gigs 0:17:44.760 --> 0:17:48.160 making poison. Wait, so what was this? What was most 0:17:48.200 --> 0:17:52.480 of this poison comprised of like was there like a 0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:55.600 hot one. Yeah. Well, we'll actually talk about a lot 0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:58.359 of what people used to poison people in detail on 0:17:58.440 --> 0:18:02.399 this episode. Um, but the big new poison on the 0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:06.479 scene for most of what we're talking about is Arsenic Okay, okay, 0:18:06.560 --> 0:18:08.679 I was I was gonna say that. I was just like, 0:18:08.840 --> 0:18:12.280 I don't know, smart suggestion, but I'm glad in my 0:18:12.320 --> 0:18:14.600 mind was on the in the right trap. Yeah, yeah, no, totally. 0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:18.320 And so Italians had this reputation of being these master poisoners, 0:18:18.320 --> 0:18:20.400 and so they would get hired by courts all over 0:18:20.480 --> 0:18:23.760 Europe to be like, oh, we need a court poison er, 0:18:24.280 --> 0:18:27.000 come on over, or like at one point supposedly, and 0:18:27.480 --> 0:18:29.400 but all of this is wrapped up in myth right, 0:18:29.440 --> 0:18:32.160 and we'll talk about that some too, But supposedly at 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:34.800 one point, like you know, some monarch is like, oh, 0:18:34.840 --> 0:18:37.520 I need fifty poisoners to win this war for me 0:18:37.560 --> 0:18:40.280 by going and poisoning all the wells over you know, 0:18:40.400 --> 0:18:44.200 enemy land or whatever. That's crazy. One English guy wrote 0:18:44.240 --> 0:18:47.160 at the time, the Italians, above all other nations most 0:18:47.160 --> 0:18:50.959 practiced revenge by treasons and are especially and especially are 0:18:51.000 --> 0:18:55.000 skillful in making and giving poisons. Um, and so it's 0:18:55.040 --> 0:19:00.879 kind of this like oh those sketchy Italians, right, but 0:19:01.920 --> 0:19:06.040 you know whatever, that's so interesting. I mean, I guess 0:19:06.040 --> 0:19:09.520 it kind of it makes sense. Like I mean, obviously 0:19:09.520 --> 0:19:11.640 there are movies or whatever, all the stories you hear 0:19:11.760 --> 0:19:15.320 about that time. There is a lot of poison involved. 0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:19.200 There's a lot of like assassinations involving poison or like whatever, 0:19:20.119 --> 0:19:23.359 and so I guess I for I forget that that 0:19:23.359 --> 0:19:26.879 that's like an actual thing that makes sense, yeah, because 0:19:26.880 --> 0:19:32.080 it seems like like a like a wizard spell or yeah, totally. Yeah, 0:19:32.280 --> 0:19:35.560 the dragon came or the court poison or slipped their 0:19:35.640 --> 0:19:39.639 ring open and poison the king drank the wine and 0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:42.639 then fell over and whatever. Yeah. Oh no, And I 0:19:42.640 --> 0:19:45.560 actually didn't write this in the script, but the kings 0:19:45.560 --> 0:19:49.000 and ship were fucking obsessed and paranoid where they would 0:19:49.040 --> 0:19:52.480 have like food testers, and the food testers would like 0:19:52.480 --> 0:19:55.879 like the kings ate ship because like the food tester 0:19:55.960 --> 0:19:58.119 would come and eat a little bit of everything, but 0:19:58.160 --> 0:20:01.000 sometimes we just stir it all up to other and 0:20:01.160 --> 0:20:03.399 like and so the food by the time it is 0:20:03.440 --> 0:20:05.919 ready for the king to eat is like cold and 0:20:06.040 --> 0:20:10.920 like take like just destroyed and also strong flavors would 0:20:11.280 --> 0:20:14.080 mask the scent and taste of poison, so they would 0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:17.000 avoid the like strong flavors. And their concept of strong 0:20:17.040 --> 0:20:21.400 flavors was like onions and garlic. Maybe not explains English cuisine. 0:20:21.560 --> 0:20:23.040 I know, That's what I was trying to figure out. 0:20:23.040 --> 0:20:25.280 I couldn't find a direct link, but it seems because 0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:27.480 it's like, well, we don't know about those. But then 0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:29.120 I'm like, but I bet the peasants, I mean, they're 0:20:29.119 --> 0:20:31.320 already like turnips and ship, right, so the peasants are 0:20:31.320 --> 0:20:35.640 probably eating some spicy ship. Yeah, I mean the solution 0:20:35.720 --> 0:20:38.800 to that, Mr King's whoever you are, is to make 0:20:38.840 --> 0:20:46.280 your own fucking food, totally. Yeah, And and they would 0:20:46.280 --> 0:20:49.000 like eat alone, and then they would like, like one king, 0:20:49.040 --> 0:20:50.760 I can't remember which one because again it didn't make 0:20:50.760 --> 0:20:54.240 it in the script, he would like wet all of 0:20:54.280 --> 0:20:59.080 his napkins and have his like testers lick the napkins, 0:21:00.000 --> 0:21:02.600 and so the like the fucking handkership is cleaning his 0:21:02.640 --> 0:21:04.919 face with or whatever is like wet and covered in 0:21:05.000 --> 0:21:09.960 someone else's spittle. Well, why in case there's poison on 0:21:10.080 --> 0:21:14.280 doesn't happen? Oh my gosh, that's a little bit too far. 0:21:14.640 --> 0:21:16.879 And the best part is none of it worked, because 0:21:17.320 --> 0:21:20.640 these these poisons don't take five minutes to show up. 0:21:20.680 --> 0:21:24.919 They take take a couple of hours at least, you know. Yeah, 0:21:25.160 --> 0:21:29.400 so poison times, ye oldie poison times. But a lot 0:21:29.440 --> 0:21:31.280 of it was fake. But there was like everyone was 0:21:31.320 --> 0:21:33.200 like freaked out about it, and it's hard to tell 0:21:33.240 --> 0:21:36.879 how much was real or not. One Italian poison of 0:21:36.960 --> 0:21:39.560 note was used by the Borgia family to murder a 0:21:39.600 --> 0:21:42.520 ton of political folks like bishops and all that stuff. 0:21:42.880 --> 0:21:47.000 And it was cantarella or thought and it might have 0:21:47.080 --> 0:21:51.640 been copper arsenic and phosphorus prepared in the decaying carcass 0:21:51.680 --> 0:21:55.320 of a hog. Because what's cool, And we're gonna get 0:21:55.320 --> 0:21:57.560 to more of this. This is the time when science 0:21:57.600 --> 0:22:01.320 and magic are just fucking science and magic are just 0:22:01.600 --> 0:22:06.439 in bed, just fucking I I appreciate that. Yeah, I 0:22:06.440 --> 0:22:09.440 was gonna say that sounds kind of witchy. Yeah, you know. Yeah. 0:22:10.320 --> 0:22:12.200 And one of the reasons why I think that's a 0:22:12.200 --> 0:22:15.240 lot of this is exaggerated. There's so many things to say. Yes, 0:22:15.320 --> 0:22:17.520 Italy was obsessed with poison, there's all these poisons, blah 0:22:17.560 --> 0:22:21.280 blah blah blah blah. But then like for example, Palmero, 0:22:21.680 --> 0:22:24.639 Paul Armo, Palmaro. You'd think I would have spelled it 0:22:24.720 --> 0:22:26.600 right when I wrote it down into my script. The 0:22:26.640 --> 0:22:28.880 town in Sicily that a lot of this story takes 0:22:28.920 --> 0:22:32.399 place in it only had over like a three hundred 0:22:32.480 --> 0:22:37.200 year period, there was only seven executions for poison. So, like, 0:22:37.960 --> 0:22:40.800 I think a lot of this is this sort of 0:22:40.840 --> 0:22:44.720 moral panic where basically anytime anyone important dies, people like 0:22:44.760 --> 0:22:48.480 it was poison. You know, Yeah, they've just like perpetuated 0:22:48.520 --> 0:22:53.840 this like fearful rumor, I mean more than it probably was. Yeah, yeah, 0:22:53.840 --> 0:22:56.160 that sounds like what we do now, So it checks out. 0:22:56.520 --> 0:22:59.200 But people definitely fucked with poison. Killing people never goes 0:22:59.240 --> 0:23:01.760 out of style. Poison has always also been a weapon 0:23:01.800 --> 0:23:03.760 of those who don't have access to more direct means 0:23:03.800 --> 0:23:07.640 of violence, which is to say, a woman's weapon again 0:23:07.920 --> 0:23:10.840 or has it been? Who knows? Because women kill people, right, 0:23:10.840 --> 0:23:13.119 Obviously we're gonna talk about some women who absolutely kill 0:23:13.200 --> 0:23:17.000 some people. Um, but patriarchal society condemns women in what 0:23:17.080 --> 0:23:20.439