WEBVTT - S4: E10 — Courage 0:00:00.440 --> 0:00:03.000 Hi, everyone. We wanted to let you know that this 0:00:03.080 --> 0:00:07.000 is our final episode of season four and Caroline Borega's story, 0:00:07.640 --> 0:00:10.879 But don't worry, there's a lot more Betrayal coming your way. 0:00:11.320 --> 0:00:13.760 We will be returning on Thursday, August seventh with a 0:00:13.800 --> 0:00:17.600 brand new season of Betrayal Weekly. Be sure to subscribe 0:00:17.600 --> 0:00:20.360 to make sure you never miss an episode, and there's 0:00:20.400 --> 0:00:24.000 more Betrayal news. If Betrayal is your must listen, you 0:00:24.040 --> 0:00:28.040 should subscribe to Beyond Betrayal, our new substack community. It's 0:00:28.120 --> 0:00:31.280 free to join impact with the extras we can't squeeze 0:00:31.320 --> 0:00:35.040 into the show. Our team shares behind the scenes conversations, 0:00:35.280 --> 0:00:38.920 never before seen videos, and personal essays from the survivors 0:00:39.080 --> 0:00:43.159 you've met on the series, including Caroline, Stacey, Ashley, and Me. 0:00:44.120 --> 0:00:47.240 Upgraded members can even jump into live chats with us. 0:00:47.680 --> 0:00:50.360 Ready to dig deeper, click the link in the show 0:00:50.360 --> 0:00:54.400 notes or visit Betrayal dot substack dot com, hit subscribe 0:00:54.480 --> 0:01:00.360 and join for free today. Okay, now onto the show. 0:01:01.520 --> 0:01:05.400 There was a woman whose husband was eventually arrested for 0:01:05.800 --> 0:01:10.640 sexually abusing children in a school, and the police found 0:01:10.760 --> 0:01:14.559 all these stacks of child pornography sitting around his living 0:01:14.640 --> 0:01:20.720 room in plain sight, and they interviewed his wife and 0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:24.720 she said she did not see them. She could have 0:01:24.760 --> 0:01:39.800 her eyes on them and not see them. 0:01:40.040 --> 0:01:43.679 I'm Andre Gunning and this is Betrayal, Season four, Episode 0:01:43.720 --> 0:01:54.400 ten Courage. In our last episode, we closed the book 0:01:54.440 --> 0:01:58.360 on Caroline's story, but before we end our season, we 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:02.240 wanted to dive deeper in to one aspect of Caroline's 0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:03.640 healing journey. 0:02:03.680 --> 0:02:08.320 Within a day of Joel's disclosure, I was seeking therapeutic 0:02:08.360 --> 0:02:12.040 intervention for myself and my kids, and I am grateful 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:15.200 for that therapist. She definitely was there for crisis intervention. 0:02:16.160 --> 0:02:21.639 That being said, though there was never this term betrayal trauma, 0:02:23.320 --> 0:02:27.000 I never heard the term and our duration of therapy. 0:02:28.600 --> 0:02:33.520 I'm not faulting her, but I hadn't had anyone actually 0:02:33.560 --> 0:02:39.280 walk me through the emotions and that how I was 0:02:39.320 --> 0:02:45.440 feeling was actually a normal part of being betrayed. The 0:02:45.520 --> 0:02:50.480 reason why I wrote to the podcast was because listening 0:02:50.560 --> 0:02:54.480 to season one driving with my daughter was life changing. 0:02:55.240 --> 0:02:57.480 Caroline was on a road trip with Nicole when they 0:02:57.520 --> 0:03:01.040 came across our first season of Betrayal. This was the 0:03:01.080 --> 0:03:05.240 first time either of them heard a professional speaking about betrayal. Trauma, 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:06.720 and I. 0:03:06.760 --> 0:03:10.800 Must have played that episode a dozen times. It was 0:03:10.919 --> 0:03:14.639 just a description that was so empowering and so relatable, 0:03:15.200 --> 0:03:17.520 and I just wanted to continue to have that connection, 0:03:17.639 --> 0:03:20.600 even if it was through a podcast. 0:03:22.680 --> 0:03:27.000 The shame, the guilt. Caroline thought she was alone in 0:03:27.040 --> 0:03:30.440 these feelings. She had no idea that there were others 0:03:30.480 --> 0:03:35.880 out there suffering from the same form of trauma. The 0:03:35.920 --> 0:03:39.360 people who've shared their stories in prior seasons and on 0:03:39.400 --> 0:03:42.200 the Betrayal Weekly podcast felt the same way. 0:03:42.520 --> 0:03:44.760 The person I had loved and been in a relationship 0:03:44.800 --> 0:03:48.640 with disappeared, and with him went three years of my 0:03:48.720 --> 0:03:50.160 life into a black hole. 0:03:50.960 --> 0:03:52.200 I was like, what's wrong with me? 0:03:53.400 --> 0:03:56.520 I was just heartsick, gut sick, heartsick. 0:03:56.600 --> 0:03:59.800 My whole body responded in All I could think of 0:04:00.200 --> 0:04:01.480 was who are you? 0:04:02.480 --> 0:04:03.680 How could you do this? 0:04:04.720 --> 0:04:08.520 All these people experience betrayal trauma. It's the thread that 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:11.960 binds all the stories we tell. And we got the 0:04:12.000 --> 0:04:15.240 opportunity to speak to the person who coined the term 0:04:15.360 --> 0:04:19.839 betrayal trauma in the first place. She is a retired 0:04:20.000 --> 0:04:24.360 research psychologist who pioneered the field of betrayal trauma. So 0:04:24.440 --> 0:04:27.320 to close out our season, we wanted to share parts 0:04:27.360 --> 0:04:28.600 of our conversation with you. 0:04:31.320 --> 0:04:34.960 My name is Jennifer Fried. I was a university professor 0:04:35.160 --> 0:04:37.560 at the University of Oregon most of my career, where 0:04:37.640 --> 0:04:44.640 I taught psychology and did a lot of research, specifically 0:04:44.680 --> 0:04:49.600 developing betrayal trauma theory, the concept of betrayal blindness all 0:04:49.680 --> 0:04:53.839 the way through to institutional courage. 0:04:53.920 --> 0:04:58.280 After going to graduate school for cognitive psychology, doctor Fried 0:04:58.440 --> 0:05:00.520 made her way to the University of Oregon. 0:05:01.600 --> 0:05:04.760 Some years into my time at the University of Oregon, 0:05:05.400 --> 0:05:09.440 I really changed pivoted the kind of research I was 0:05:09.480 --> 0:05:12.080 doing to the psychology of trauma. 0:05:12.880 --> 0:05:16.560 Doctor Fried started compiling research on a specific form of trauma, 0:05:17.120 --> 0:05:20.120 the kind you experience when someone close to you breaks 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:20.679 your trust. 0:05:21.400 --> 0:05:24.120 At the time, in the early nineteen nineties, there was 0:05:24.200 --> 0:05:31.440 still within academic psychology a disbelief in the prevalence of trauma, 0:05:31.560 --> 0:05:37.040 particularly interpersonal, particularly sexual trauma, as well as its significance 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:41.600 or importance. And I remember very well in around oh 0:05:41.680 --> 0:05:45.360 maybe nineteen ninety one, ish I gave a talk in 0:05:45.400 --> 0:05:48.920 my own department about my new research and ideas, and 0:05:49.040 --> 0:05:52.479 people were just like looking at me like I had 0:05:52.640 --> 0:05:53.880 gotten nuts. 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:57.640 Still, she kept going. She knew there was something here. 0:05:58.279 --> 0:06:02.479 Eventually this pattern developed into a theory, a theory of 0:06:02.520 --> 0:06:03.520 betrayal trauma. 0:06:04.200 --> 0:06:08.719 A betrayal trauma is when somebody that you depend on 0:06:09.000 --> 0:06:14.880 and trust does something that harms you. It's that combination 0:06:15.160 --> 0:06:19.200 of harm with the nature of the relationship you have 0:06:19.320 --> 0:06:22.840 with the person the victim perpetrator relationships. 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:27.560 Betrayal trauma theory accounts for how we process traumas differently 0:06:27.880 --> 0:06:32.120 when they're perpetrated by someone close to us. And there 0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:36.920 was always one aspect of processing betrayal at Intrigue, doctor Fried, 0:06:37.800 --> 0:06:41.960 how people can block out experiences like childhood abuse or 0:06:42.000 --> 0:06:45.880 sexual assault, or how they can forget moments when they 0:06:45.920 --> 0:06:47.320 caught a partner and a lie. 0:06:48.080 --> 0:06:53.359 Betrayal trauma theory was always about understanding how and why 0:06:53.600 --> 0:07:00.200 people could forget seemingly extremely important experiences and events in 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:03.000 their life, very important traumas. 0:07:04.279 --> 0:07:06.920 This is something we've seen over and over again on 0:07:06.960 --> 0:07:11.360 our show. We've received emails from people of all ages, professions, 0:07:11.360 --> 0:07:14.080 and backgrounds who say they didn't see what was right 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:18.080 in front of them. Here's the thing, not seeing when 0:07:18.120 --> 0:07:22.120 someone close to you is betraying you. It isn't just denial, 0:07:22.600 --> 0:07:27.000 it's a very real psychological experience, one that doctor Fried 0:07:27.040 --> 0:07:30.240 has spent her career researching. She gave us an example 0:07:30.360 --> 0:07:32.040 she uses in one of her books. 0:07:32.760 --> 0:07:36.600 There was a woman whose husband was eventually arrested for 0:07:37.040 --> 0:07:41.160 sexually abusing children in a school. And the police raided 0:07:41.200 --> 0:07:44.960 his house and found all these stacks of child pornography 0:07:45.520 --> 0:07:50.120 sitting around his living room in plain sight. And they 0:07:50.240 --> 0:07:55.840 interviewed his wife, and she said she did not see them. 0:07:55.920 --> 0:07:58.480 She would look at the coffee table and she would 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:01.920 not see them. She could have her eyes on them 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:03.120 and not see them. 0:08:08.240 --> 0:08:11.360 When I read doctor Fried's book Blind to Betrayal, I 0:08:11.480 --> 0:08:14.360 was struck by another story, a story of a woman 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:17.040 who decided to visit her husband at his go to bar. 0:08:17.760 --> 0:08:20.360 She was waiting there to surprise him, and when her 0:08:20.400 --> 0:08:23.440 husband showed up, another woman approached him and kissed him. 0:08:24.000 --> 0:08:26.720 He explained it away, and the wife forgot about the 0:08:26.800 --> 0:08:32.400 kiss for years. At first, these two examples seem unbelievable. 0:08:32.960 --> 0:08:35.280 How can people fail to see what's right in front 0:08:35.280 --> 0:08:38.920 of them or forget experiences entirely? 0:08:40.400 --> 0:08:43.719 How does that happen? And why does that happen? And 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:48.240 the answer that I provided that I came to call 0:08:48.320 --> 0:08:54.640 betrayal blindness was that it's a survival mechanism. 0:08:54.840 --> 0:08:59.000 Doctor Fried explained that our brains block out information that 0:08:59.040 --> 0:09:01.439 could threaten vital relationships. 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:06.520 We are programmed to fall in love with people we 0:09:06.640 --> 0:09:09.720 take care of, and people we take care of are 0:09:09.760 --> 0:09:12.880 also programmed to fall in love with us. We have 0:09:12.920 --> 0:09:15.679 a really strong attachment system, and it's a good it's 0:09:15.720 --> 0:09:20.199 a beautiful thing. It makes life worth living. Is this 0:09:20.320 --> 0:09:23.480 love that we feel? I mean, it keeps us alive. 0:09:24.720 --> 0:09:27.920 Think of a child relying on a parent. The child 0:09:28.000 --> 0:09:31.720 depends on that parent for love, food, and shelter, and 0:09:31.760 --> 0:09:34.480 the child trusts the parent to continue to care for them. 0:09:35.280 --> 0:09:38.560 But here's the problem. What happens if you've got an 0:09:38.559 --> 0:09:44.360 abusive parent? What happens if the parent is the betrayer. 0:09:45.520 --> 0:09:51.120 If you withdraw or confront, you risk not getting your 0:09:51.160 --> 0:09:55.240 survival needs met at all, or you may get more abuse. 0:09:55.520 --> 0:09:59.360 It's not safe. The solution out of that is what 0:09:59.440 --> 0:10:05.320 I came to call betrayal blindness. The attachment system matters more. 0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:09.800 It's great to detect betrayal, but attachment matters more if 0:10:09.840 --> 0:10:10.880 it's keeping you alive. 0:10:12.040 --> 0:10:16.000 Our brains are constantly making choices about what information matters. 0:10:16.040 --> 0:10:23.559 Most humans are amazing in how they filter information. We 0:10:23.640 --> 0:10:28.160 do it all the time. We sort information out as 0:10:28.160 --> 0:10:31.400 it's coming into the eyes and the ears and the nose. 0:10:32.360 --> 0:10:36.480 That filtering happens subconsciously. We don't notice it, but we've 0:10:36.559 --> 0:10:39.840 all experienced it. Like when you're in a crowded room. 0:10:40.360 --> 0:10:44.160 Even though there's twenty people talking at the same time, 0:10:44.400 --> 0:10:46.640 you're not going to hear other parts of the conversation, 0:10:46.800 --> 0:10:49.679 but suddenly your name pops out you or you know, 0:10:49.720 --> 0:10:52.360 if there's a really juicy topic they're talking about, some 0:10:52.440 --> 0:10:54.920 good gossip over in the corner, you might suddenly be 0:10:55.040 --> 0:10:59.040 aware of that conversation. All that time, your brain has 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:02.360 been filtering out the information coming in and kind of 0:11:02.640 --> 0:11:06.480 deciding which parts of it to be aware of. Because 0:11:06.480 --> 0:11:08.040 we can't be aware of everything at once. 0:11:09.160 --> 0:11:12.319 It can be unsettling to think about, but our brains 0:11:12.320 --> 0:11:16.560 are always selecting what we perceive and how we interpret 0:11:16.640 --> 0:11:21.200 that information, and when terrible things happen, our brains work 0:11:21.240 --> 0:11:26.880 to preserve important relationships. We can subconsciously delete information, or 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:31.080 sometimes even when we know the information, when we saw 0:11:31.200 --> 0:11:35.800 and experienced something firsthand, our brain can create an entirely 0:11:35.920 --> 0:11:37.439 new story It's. 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:39.560 Not just that we can block out information and not 0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:42.160 see things right in front of us or not remember 0:11:42.240 --> 0:11:48.080 things that happen. There are other ways we can twist reality. 0:11:48.920 --> 0:11:53.240 So for some people, the way they engage in betrayal blindness, 0:11:53.920 --> 0:11:57.760 they see the events happening, they remember it, but they 0:11:57.840 --> 0:12:04.480 twist around who's response, so they blame themselves, not the 0:12:04.520 --> 0:12:05.720 person who's harming them. 0:12:06.400 --> 0:12:10.760 Like doctor Fried explained, this is a survival mechanism. That's 0:12:10.800 --> 0:12:15.679 why she first conceptualized betrayal blindness using the parent child relationship, 0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:20.400 because it's an essential relationship for that child survival. But 0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:23.080 adults experience betrayal blindness too. 0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:30.200 For many people, their intimate marriage or partnership relationships have 0:12:30.320 --> 0:12:35.240 these same dynamics, where one party feels very dependent on 0:12:35.280 --> 0:12:38.839 the other. They may be financially dependent, they may be 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:42.920 emotionally dependent, they may have been betrayed themselves in childhood, 0:12:43.760 --> 0:12:49.040 whatever it is. Adults can also have terrible betrayal blindness, 0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:54.040 and sometimes that is also serving a major survival benefit. 0:12:54.360 --> 0:12:57.240 If you are dependent on your partner and your partner's 0:12:57.280 --> 0:13:02.320 betraying you and you confront her with draw, you risk 0:13:02.600 --> 0:13:07.640 potentially losing access to resources you need. It's serving an 0:13:08.000 --> 0:13:14.000 enormous survival benefit for many people in many situations, but 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:17.800 it does come at a cost. If you don't see it, 0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:20.559 it's hard to stop it, it's hard to get help, 0:13:21.320 --> 0:13:24.240 it's hard to get justice if you don't see it. 0:13:42.000 --> 0:13:45.240 Doctor Jennifer Fried is the leading expert on betrayal trauma, 0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:48.600 but she also has researched the psychology of people that 0:13:48.640 --> 0:13:53.320 commit betrayals. She has identified common tactics that perpetrators use 0:13:53.400 --> 0:13:57.920 to keep victims quiet. She calls this collection of tactics DARVO. 0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:04.520 DARVO is an acronym that stands for deny, attack, and 0:14:04.640 --> 0:14:09.640 reverse victim and offender, and it's a tactic that perpetrators 0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:15.200 can use when they're being held accountable for a misbehavior. 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:19.480 We asked doctor Fried to break down the elements of DARVO. 0:14:20.880 --> 0:14:25.200 The denial typically is aggressive, a little over the top, 0:14:25.800 --> 0:14:31.680 very angry denial. The attack is often an attack on credibility. 0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:35.360 It often takes the form of saying you know you 0:14:35.440 --> 0:14:39.680 are drunk, or you're mentally unhealthy, or they're sitting wrong 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:43.760 with your memory. And the RVO is the most insidious part. 0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:47.360 This is reversing victim and offender, and this is when 0:14:47.840 --> 0:14:51.440 the true victim gets put into the offender role by 0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:54.800 daring to, you know, make this accusation. 0:14:55.880 --> 0:14:59.520 Even just hearing this description, we thought of Caroline's story 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:02.720 like the time she heard about Joel having an affair 0:15:02.800 --> 0:15:07.160 with their tenant. Joel denied the accusation, and he even 0:15:07.280 --> 0:15:09.080 went with Caroline to confront her. 0:15:09.800 --> 0:15:12.800 This psychopath is got me on the road to the divorce. 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:14.400 My kids won't be out of the house. 0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:19.720 Instead of taking accountability, he made himself the victim. Then 0:15:19.960 --> 0:15:23.680 there was the moment Caroline confronted Joel about lying about 0:15:23.680 --> 0:15:26.280 where he was in the middle of the night. He 0:15:26.360 --> 0:15:29.240 said he was at an accident scene, but his location 0:15:29.440 --> 0:15:33.680 on Life three sixty told a different story. Caroline described 0:15:33.720 --> 0:15:37.200 Joel exhibiting the first element of darvo denial. 0:15:37.960 --> 0:15:40.080 Oh my god, that had to be a wrong cell 0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:43.320 phone tower pinging and I was not even close to their. 0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:46.720 Then the second element, Joel attacked her. 0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:48.920 Why would you say that? Don't you think I want 0:15:48.920 --> 0:15:49.440 to be home? 0:15:49.920 --> 0:15:54.160 And finally the third element, Joel reversed the victim and offender. 0:15:54.760 --> 0:15:58.280 He made her feel as though she had done something wrong. 0:15:58.800 --> 0:16:03.040 I start feeling guilty for asking him something that I 0:16:03.200 --> 0:16:06.280 factually see and then I start doubting myself and almost 0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:08.200 believing could a self on. 0:16:08.240 --> 0:16:10.400 Tower being wrong on life three sixty? 0:16:10.560 --> 0:16:10.880 Is that? 0:16:11.400 --> 0:16:15.960 Is that even possible? We found that one of the 0:16:16.000 --> 0:16:19.240 consequences of being darvoed when somebody does that to you 0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:23.880 is blaming yourself. When people blame themselves, they're much more 0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:27.800 likely to go silent, and so if the perpetrator's goal 0:16:28.000 --> 0:16:31.600 is to get the victim to be silent, darvo has 0:16:31.840 --> 0:16:32.760 that effect too. 0:16:34.040 --> 0:16:37.720 This strategy worked on Caroline. It kept her doubting herself 0:16:38.160 --> 0:16:42.160 instead of doubting Joel and darvo is not just a 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:47.000 tactic used interpersonally. It's commonly used in trials. 0:16:47.560 --> 0:16:52.000 It's often a technique used by defense attorneys in say 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:56.560 a sexual abuse case, where the defense attorney will very 0:16:56.880 --> 0:17:01.080 consciously deny on behalf of their client the event happened 0:17:01.200 --> 0:17:05.200 and attacked the credibility of the victim, and then reverse 0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:09.919 victim and offender by painting the true victim as the 0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:11.120 offender in the situation. 0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:14.399 This also made us think of Joel and how he 0:17:14.480 --> 0:17:17.520 shifted the blame onte his home life during his internal 0:17:17.560 --> 0:17:21.520 Affairs interviews. We played Doctor Fried this tape from when 0:17:21.560 --> 0:17:24.680 he was investigated for sexually harassing reporters. 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:35.000 I'm sorry, right, things were good at home, and I 0:17:35.000 --> 0:17:39.280 think I fell into the trap of, you know, being 0:17:39.320 --> 0:17:40.480 excited about the attention. 0:17:43.359 --> 0:17:47.280 What he does in the clip is really puts himself 0:17:47.320 --> 0:17:51.680 into the victim role, you know, that crying and the 0:17:51.720 --> 0:17:56.280 way he's painting himself. You know, he's a person who 0:17:57.040 --> 0:17:59.960 we might want to feel sorry for. He sort of 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:02.600 put himself in the position of the one being wronged. 0:18:04.320 --> 0:18:08.120 In this next clip, Joel goes even farther. When internal 0:18:08.160 --> 0:18:11.560 affairs demanded accountability for having sex in his police car, 0:18:12.240 --> 0:18:16.400 he put the responsibility of his rehabilitation on the police department. 0:18:17.320 --> 0:18:20.800 In his interview as part of the IA investigation, he 0:18:20.920 --> 0:18:23.439 said the following, we pay a lot of. 0:18:23.440 --> 0:18:27.240 Loop service about our employees as our family and all that. 0:18:27.600 --> 0:18:30.880 But I like to maybe somehow believe in that and 0:18:31.320 --> 0:18:35.880 recognize that I've had issues, and I've had issues for 0:18:35.920 --> 0:18:42.040 a long long time, and every day is a struggle 0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:43.120 and I want help. 0:18:45.840 --> 0:18:48.320 There may be a truth to all that, in the 0:18:48.359 --> 0:18:51.520 sense that he has issues and it's been a traumatic job, 0:18:51.800 --> 0:18:55.760 but it's a way to deflect responsibility regarding his own 0:18:55.800 --> 0:18:58.679 behavior in a police car with this woman. 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:04.119 Fried can't speak to Joel's specific psychological profile, but she 0:19:04.240 --> 0:19:07.359 says in her research she's learned a lot about the 0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:09.600 kinds of people who use DARVO. 0:19:10.920 --> 0:19:15.160 People that use darvo are quite a bit more likely 0:19:15.320 --> 0:19:18.919 to also engage in sexually harassing behaviors. 0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:23.080 Once again, Joel appeared to align with the profile Doctor 0:19:23.160 --> 0:19:27.320 Fried developed. You may recall from an earlier episode, his 0:19:27.440 --> 0:19:31.240 behavior had grown so disruptive that he was eventually banned 0:19:31.240 --> 0:19:35.840 from the family doctor's office. Caroline learned the truth when 0:19:35.880 --> 0:19:38.119 she went to get tested for STDs. 0:19:38.640 --> 0:19:42.560 And so she does a full exam and she leaves 0:19:42.600 --> 0:19:44.439 the room, and when she came back in, she just 0:19:44.480 --> 0:19:48.119 had this horrible kind of fearful look on her face. 0:19:49.000 --> 0:19:52.720 And I just was sobbing, and I said, you can 0:19:52.760 --> 0:19:54.840 tell I have something, can't You can already tell I 0:19:54.880 --> 0:19:58.280 have something? And she shook her head and she said no, 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:02.720 And she said she was debating on telling me that 0:20:03.240 --> 0:20:07.560 Joel had essentially been blacklisted from seeing her because he 0:20:07.640 --> 0:20:11.080 had come in four different appointments before and had been 0:20:11.600 --> 0:20:15.320 and appropriate with his commentary. I'm very sexualized with his 0:20:15.359 --> 0:20:18.480 commentary toward her, and I was mortified. 0:20:19.680 --> 0:20:23.639 Doctor Fried offered more details about people who use darvo. 0:20:24.880 --> 0:20:29.919 They are more likely to hold beliefs that blame women 0:20:30.160 --> 0:20:34.800 for being victims, and they are more likely to have 0:20:34.920 --> 0:20:39.840 certain personality characteristics three in particular that are often called 0:20:39.880 --> 0:20:44.520 the Dark triad narcissism, machia, alianism, and psychopathy. 0:20:44.920 --> 0:20:49.360 People with Dark triad characteristics can be cunning, self interested, 0:20:49.520 --> 0:20:53.240 and manipulative. They often lack empathy and are willing to 0:20:53.280 --> 0:20:55.440 exploit others to achieve their goals. 0:20:55.920 --> 0:20:58.639 It doesn't mean if somebody uses darvau they are for 0:20:58.760 --> 0:21:01.960 sure any of those things, just it's just much more likely. 0:21:02.960 --> 0:21:06.880 Doctor Fried's research does offer one encouraging insight. 0:21:07.520 --> 0:21:11.960 We find if we educate people about darva, it reduces 0:21:12.040 --> 0:21:16.159 the power of darvaux. If people know that this is 0:21:16.200 --> 0:21:18.639 a pattern, they're not as swayed by it. 0:21:36.720 --> 0:21:40.560 We've been talking to betrayal trauma researcher doctor Jennifer Fried. 0:21:41.160 --> 0:21:45.840 Her groundbreaking work has transformed how we understand and support 0:21:45.920 --> 0:21:49.760 victims of betrayal. One reason we wanted to speak with 0:21:49.800 --> 0:21:52.840 her for this season is her focus on a concept 0:21:53.000 --> 0:21:55.360 she's termed institutional betrayal. 0:21:56.359 --> 0:22:01.160 Institutional betrayal in its broadest sense, is when the perpetrator 0:22:01.240 --> 0:22:04.359 of a betrayal is just something larger than one person. 0:22:04.880 --> 0:22:08.560 So families are little tiny institutions. It can be a family, 0:22:09.119 --> 0:22:11.760 it can be you know, the workplace. It can be 0:22:11.800 --> 0:22:15.119 the church, or the school, or the government. It's the 0:22:15.280 --> 0:22:19.960 larger entity that is betraying somebody who is dependent on 0:22:20.160 --> 0:22:24.959 that institution, cares for it, very often loves the institution. 0:22:25.640 --> 0:22:31.360 So the dynamics of betrayal trauma all apply to institution betrayal. 0:22:33.960 --> 0:22:37.359 After Joel was exposed, no one in the department came 0:22:37.400 --> 0:22:42.399 to Caroline's aid. She felt shut out and alone. Doctor 0:22:42.440 --> 0:22:47.200 Fred's research confirms this added layer of betrayal can be devastating. 0:22:48.000 --> 0:22:52.720 People are very vulnerable to being hurt by institutions they 0:22:52.800 --> 0:22:57.240 trust it and depend on fail to protect them, fail 0:22:57.320 --> 0:23:00.840 to respond well. When they've been harmed in that institution, 0:23:01.320 --> 0:23:03.720 it's a whole new level of harm. I sometimes think 0:23:03.720 --> 0:23:07.000 about like the second concussion, where you know it's bad 0:23:07.000 --> 0:23:08.879 to be hitting the head once, but then you go 0:23:08.920 --> 0:23:12.720 and you hit the head again. That's, you know, way worse. 0:23:13.720 --> 0:23:18.119 Doctor Fred explains the way we depend on institutions is 0:23:18.160 --> 0:23:20.600 a lot like the way we depend on people in 0:23:20.640 --> 0:23:21.240 our lives. 0:23:22.840 --> 0:23:25.760 Almost everyone has some institution they love. Most people love 0:23:25.800 --> 0:23:29.760 their family, most people love their church if they have one, 0:23:29.880 --> 0:23:34.520 or their school. They have emotional attachments, and the institutions 0:23:34.560 --> 0:23:37.280 can't actually love you back. But it doesn't stop people 0:23:37.320 --> 0:23:41.000 from loving the institutions. And that's not a bad thing 0:23:41.200 --> 0:23:44.000 that we love institutions, just a very human thing, but 0:23:44.119 --> 0:23:47.120 it does make us vulnerable to the harm of betrayal. 0:23:48.040 --> 0:23:51.960 Doctor Fried found this idea of institutional betrayal deeply troubling, 0:23:52.640 --> 0:23:55.520 but it also felt like an exciting issue to tackle 0:23:56.160 --> 0:23:59.160 when doctor Fried and her students could have a real 0:23:59.240 --> 0:23:59.880 impact on. 0:24:00.600 --> 0:24:03.520 It's actually easier to think about fixing an institution than 0:24:03.760 --> 0:24:07.879 fixing all the interpersonal violence in the United States, and 0:24:08.040 --> 0:24:13.879 we developed steps one can take to make institutions less betraying. 0:24:14.800 --> 0:24:18.280 These steps and the idea that institutions can prevent further 0:24:18.400 --> 0:24:23.879 betrayal big up doctor Fried's theory of institutional courage. One 0:24:23.960 --> 0:24:27.000 of the main steps is transparency. 0:24:28.600 --> 0:24:35.520 Betrayal really loves secrecy and really doesn't survive transparency very 0:24:35.520 --> 0:24:41.080 well at all. In families where you've got institutional betrayal occurring, 0:24:41.160 --> 0:24:45.080 there's almost always secrets. They're things that aren't known, can't 0:24:45.080 --> 0:24:49.600 be talked about and most therapists of healthy family systems 0:24:49.640 --> 0:24:52.720 will tell you that secrets are bad for families, and 0:24:52.800 --> 0:24:56.320 the more that can be shared openly and transparently the better. 0:24:56.760 --> 0:25:01.320 The more transparency, the less likely these betraying things will occur. 0:25:02.520 --> 0:25:05.760 This made us think of Caroline too. She made the 0:25:05.840 --> 0:25:09.040 choice to be very transparent with her children about what 0:25:09.160 --> 0:25:12.800 Joel had done. We asked doctor Fried for her opinion 0:25:12.840 --> 0:25:13.200 on this. 0:25:14.040 --> 0:25:16.720 It's interesting because if you were talking about eight to 0:25:16.840 --> 0:25:21.200 nine year olds, this would be a tougher issue. With children, 0:25:21.440 --> 0:25:24.520 you know, you have to be sensitive to their developmental 0:25:24.560 --> 0:25:27.919 stage and not overwhelm them with information they may not 0:25:28.480 --> 0:25:32.119 really have a way to understand. By the time you're sixteen, 0:25:32.520 --> 0:25:36.240 that's no longer really an issue. Sixteen, seventeen, and certainly 0:25:36.320 --> 0:25:41.720 nineteen twenty year olds are fully capable of understanding these 0:25:41.760 --> 0:25:45.640 sources of issues and are only going to benefit from 0:25:45.720 --> 0:25:49.840 honesty and only going to suffer from secrets. 0:25:50.560 --> 0:25:53.359 She also brought up that this isn't just a question 0:25:53.480 --> 0:25:58.119 of knowing or not knowing. Transparency in this case is 0:25:58.240 --> 0:26:01.920 key to ensuring the cycle of trail ends with Joel. 0:26:03.040 --> 0:26:09.720 Secrecy is corrosive. Secrecy allows dysfunctional harmful patterns to repeat 0:26:09.760 --> 0:26:13.600 over and over again. One way to think about this 0:26:13.680 --> 0:26:18.679 is in terms of what's the probability that our teenager 0:26:18.840 --> 0:26:22.520 who grows up in a family like this goes on 0:26:23.280 --> 0:26:28.560 to repeat this dynamic as an adult, versus the probability 0:26:28.600 --> 0:26:31.240 they go on to have a healthy relationship when they 0:26:31.320 --> 0:26:38.440 develop their own family. The more things are hidden, unspoken secret, 0:26:38.840 --> 0:26:42.320 the more likely they are to just repeat it. One 0:26:42.320 --> 0:26:45.560 of the best ways to kind of innoculate people from 0:26:45.800 --> 0:26:50.960 repeating dysfunctional family dynamics is to really shine a light 0:26:51.040 --> 0:26:55.760 on them and be fully honest about what was messed up, 0:26:56.280 --> 0:26:59.479 giving people that conscious awareness so they can choose not 0:26:59.560 --> 0:27:00.360 to repeat that. 0:27:01.400 --> 0:27:04.600 We played Doctor Fried a clip of Caroline Son speaking 0:27:04.640 --> 0:27:06.320 about this issue. 0:27:06.560 --> 0:27:10.199 I wanted to know everything. The truth hurt, but it 0:27:10.240 --> 0:27:13.600 was powerful and it was needed. That was the only 0:27:13.640 --> 0:27:18.760 way to move forward. One of the things that struck 0:27:18.800 --> 0:27:21.680 me in that clip was how much courage this young 0:27:21.720 --> 0:27:24.560 man has as well. It's not like he wants to 0:27:24.640 --> 0:27:29.000 learn that his father's done harmful things. It takes courage 0:27:29.000 --> 0:27:33.080 to learn that, but it does make it possible for 0:27:33.480 --> 0:27:38.119 him to support the other family members in a really 0:27:38.280 --> 0:27:41.679