1
00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,360
Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, we have some exciting news to share. ABC

2
00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:06,880
Speaker 1: News Studios has turned Caroline Barega's story from Betrayal Season

3
00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:09,400
Speaker 1: four into a docu series. You'll get to meet the

4
00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:12,879
Speaker 1: people involved, You'll hear from people who have never spoken before,

5
00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:15,240
Speaker 1: and you get to see where this story took place.

6
00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:17,840
Speaker 1: We are so proud and excited to share it with

7
00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:22,239
Speaker 1: you all. Stream Betrayal Dirty Secrets now on Hulu or

8
00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:25,960
Speaker 1: Hulu for Disney Plus. Hi everyone, we wanted to let

9
00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:28,479
Speaker 1: you know that this is our final episode of season

10
00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:32,519
Speaker 1: four and Caroline Barega's story, But don't worry, there's a

11
00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:35,800
Speaker 1: lot more Betrayal coming your way. We will be returning

12
00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:38,400
Speaker 1: on Thursday, August seventh with a brand new season of

13
00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:41,920
Speaker 1: Betrayal Weekly. Be sure to subscribe to make sure you

14
00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:45,559
Speaker 1: never miss an episode, and there's more Betrayal news. If

15
00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:49,400
Speaker 1: Betrayal is your must listen, you should subscribe to Beyond Betrayal,

16
00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:53,159
Speaker 1: our new subset community. It's free to join impact with

17
00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:56,640
Speaker 1: the extras we can't squeeze into the show. Our team

18
00:00:56,640 --> 00:01:00,640
Speaker 1: shares behind the scenes conversations, never before seen video, and

19
00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:03,920
Speaker 1: personal essays from the survivors you've met on the series,

20
00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:09,080
Speaker 1: including Caroline Stacey Ashley and Me. Upgraded members can even

21
00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:12,279
Speaker 1: jump into live chats with us. Ready to dig deeper,

22
00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:15,280
Speaker 1: click the link in the show notes, or visit Betrayal

23
00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:21,039
Speaker 1: dot substack dot com, hit subscribe and join for free today. Okay,

24
00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:22,479
Speaker 1: now onto the show.

25
00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:29,000
Speaker 2: There was a woman whose husband was eventually arrested for

26
00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:34,240
Speaker 2: sexually abusing children at a school, and the police found

27
00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:38,200
Speaker 2: all these stacks of child pornography sitting around his living

28
00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:44,360
Speaker 2: room in plain sight, and they interviewed his wife and

29
00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:48,320
Speaker 2: she said she did not see them. She could have

30
00:01:48,360 --> 00:02:03,400
Speaker 2: her eyes on them and not see them.

31
00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:15,359
Speaker 1: I'm Andre Gunning, and this is Betrayal, Season four, Episode ten, Courage.

32
00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:19,160
Speaker 1: In our last episode, we closed the book on Caroline's story,

33
00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:22,919
Speaker 1: but before we end our season, we wanted to dive

34
00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:27,240
Speaker 1: deeper into one aspect of Caroline's healing journey.

35
00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:31,960
Speaker 3: Within a day of Joel's disclosure, I was seeking therapeutic

36
00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:35,640
Speaker 3: intervention for myself and my kids, and I am grateful

37
00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:38,799
Speaker 3: for that therapist. She definitely was there for crisis intervention.

38
00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:46,360
Speaker 3: That being said, though there was never this term betrayal trauma,

39
00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:50,639
Speaker 3: I never heard the term, and our duration of therapy,

40
00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:57,120
Speaker 3: I'm not faulting her but I hadn't had anyone actually

41
00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:02,880
Speaker 3: walk me through the emotions and that how I was

42
00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:09,040
Speaker 3: feeling was actually a normal part of being betrayed. The

43
00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:14,160
Speaker 3: reason why I wrote to the podcast was because listening

44
00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:18,079
Speaker 3: to season one driving with my daughter was life changing.

45
00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:21,120
Speaker 1: Caroline was on a road trip with Nicole when they

46
00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:24,680
Speaker 1: came across our first season of Betrayal. This was the

47
00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:28,920
Speaker 1: first time either of them heard a professional speaking about betrayal.

48
00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:33,480
Speaker 3: Trauma, and I must have played that episode a dozen times.

49
00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:37,320
Speaker 3: It was just a description that was so empowering and

50
00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:40,480
Speaker 3: so relatable, and I just wanted to continue to have

51
00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:44,240
Speaker 3: that connection, even if it was through a podcast.

52
00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:50,560
Speaker 1: The shame, the guilt. Caroline thought she was alone in

53
00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:54,080
Speaker 1: these feelings. She had no idea that there were others

54
00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:59,480
Speaker 1: out there suffering from the same form of trauma. The

55
00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:02,760
Speaker 1: people who who shared their stories in prior seasons and

56
00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:05,840
Speaker 1: on the Betrayal Weekly podcast felt the same way.

57
00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:08,360
Speaker 4: The person I had loved and been in a relationship

58
00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:12,240
Speaker 4: with disappeared, and with him went three years of my

59
00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:13,760
Speaker 4: life into a black hole.

60
00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:15,800
Speaker 2: I was like, what's wrong with me?

61
00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:20,160
Speaker 3: I was just heartsick, gut sick, heartsick.

62
00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:22,240
Speaker 4: My whole body responded in.

63
00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:26,320
Speaker 2: All I could think of was who are you? How

64
00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:27,279
Speaker 2: could you do this?

65
00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:32,160
Speaker 1: All these people experience betrayal trauma. It's the thread that

66
00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,560
Speaker 1: binds all the stories we tell. And we got the

67
00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:38,880
Speaker 1: opportunity to speak to the person who coined the term

68
00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:44,080
Speaker 1: betrayal trauma in the first place. She's a retired research

69
00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:48,160
Speaker 1: psychologist who pioneered the field of betrayal trauma. So to

70
00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:51,040
Speaker 1: close out our season, we wanted to share parts of

71
00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:52,200
Speaker 1: our conversation with you.

72
00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:58,560
Speaker 2: My name is Jennifer Fried. I was a university professor

73
00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:01,800
Speaker 2: at the University of Oregon from my career where I

74
00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:08,960
Speaker 2: taught psychology and did a lot of research, specifically developing

75
00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:13,359
Speaker 2: betrayal trauma theory, the concept of betrayal blindness all the

76
00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:17,440
Speaker 2: way through to institutional courage.

77
00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:21,880
Speaker 1: After going to graduate school for cognitive psychology, Doctor Fried

78
00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:24,120
Speaker 1: made her way to the University of Oregon.

79
00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:28,360
Speaker 2: Some years into my time at the University of Oregon,

80
00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:33,039
Speaker 2: I really changed pivoted the kind of research I was

81
00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:35,760
Speaker 2: doing to the psychology of trauma.

82
00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:40,200
Speaker 1: Doctor Fried started compiling research on a specific form of trauma,

83
00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:43,719
Speaker 1: the kind you experience when someone close to you breaks

84
00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:44,280
Speaker 1: your trust.

85
00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:47,719
Speaker 2: At the time in the early nineteen nineties, there was

86
00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:55,040
Speaker 2: still within academic psychology a disbelief in the prevalence of trauma,

87
00:05:55,200 --> 00:06:00,680
Speaker 2: particularly interpersonal, particularly sexual trauma, as well as it's significance

88
00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:05,240
Speaker 2: or importance. And I remember very well in around oh

89
00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:09,000
Speaker 2: maybe nineteen ninety one, Ish I gave a talk in

90
00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:12,560
Speaker 2: my own department about my new research and ideas, and

91
00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:16,040
Speaker 2: people were just like looking at me like I had

92
00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:17,040
Speaker 2: gotten nuts.

93
00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:21,239
Speaker 1: Still, she kept going, she knew there was something here.

94
00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:26,120
Speaker 1: Eventually this pattern developed into a theory, a theory of

95
00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:27,120
Speaker 1: betrayal trauma.

96
00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:32,320
Speaker 2: A betrayal trauma is when somebody that you depend on

97
00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:38,480
Speaker 2: and trust does something that harms you. It's that combination

98
00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:42,800
Speaker 2: of harm with the nature of the relationship you have

99
00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:46,440
Speaker 2: with the person the victim perpetrator relationships.

100
00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:51,120
Speaker 1: Betrayal trauma theory accounts for how we process traumas differently

101
00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:55,719
Speaker 1: when they're perpetrated by someone close to us. And there

102
00:06:55,800 --> 00:07:00,520
Speaker 1: was always one aspect of processing betrayal at intrigued doctor Fried,

103
00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:05,560
Speaker 1: how people can block out experiences like childhood abuse or

104
00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:09,480
Speaker 1: sexual assault, or how they can forget moments when they

105
00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:10,920
Speaker 1: caught a partner and a lie.

106
00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:16,960
Speaker 2: Betrayal trauma theory was always about understanding how and why

107
00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:23,760
Speaker 2: people could forget seemingly extremely important experiences and events in

108
00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:26,600
Speaker 2: their life, very important traumas.

109
00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:30,520
Speaker 1: This is something we've seen over and over again on

110
00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:34,960
Speaker 1: our show. We've received emails from people of all ages, professions,

111
00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:37,680
Speaker 1: and backgrounds who say they didn't see what was right

112
00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:41,720
Speaker 1: in front of them. Here's the thing, not seeing when

113
00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:45,760
Speaker 1: someone close to you is betraying you. It isn't just denial.

114
00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:50,600
Speaker 1: It's a very real psychological experience, one that doctor Fried

115
00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:53,880
Speaker 1: has spent her career researching. She gave us an example

116
00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:55,640
Speaker 1: she uses in one of her books.

117
00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:59,920
Speaker 2: There was a woman whose husband was eventually arrested for

118
00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:04,200
Speaker 2: are sexually abusing children in a school. And the police

119
00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:07,800
Speaker 2: raided his house and found all these stacks of child

120
00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:12,520
Speaker 2: pornography sitting around his living room in a plain sight.

121
00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:18,760
Speaker 2: And they interviewed his wife and she said she did

122
00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:21,080
Speaker 2: not see them. She would look at the coffee table

123
00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:24,560
Speaker 2: and she would not see them. She could have her

124
00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:26,720
Speaker 2: eyes on them and not see them.

125
00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:34,960
Speaker 1: When I read doctor Fried's book Blind to Betrayal, I

126
00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:37,960
Speaker 1: was struck by another story, a story of a woman

127
00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:40,640
Speaker 1: who decided to visit her husband at his go to bar.

128
00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:43,960
Speaker 1: She was waiting there to surprise him, and when her

129
00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:47,040
Speaker 1: husband showed up, another woman approached him and kissed him.

130
00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:50,319
Speaker 1: He explained it away, and the wife forgot about the

131
00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:56,040
Speaker 1: kiss for years. At first, these two examples seem unbelievable.

132
00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:58,880
Speaker 1: How can people fail to see what's right in front

133
00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:02,560
Speaker 1: of them or forget experiences entirely?

134
00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:07,360
Speaker 2: How does that happen? And why does that happen? And

135
00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:11,840
Speaker 2: the answer that I provided that I came to call

136
00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:18,240
Speaker 2: betrayal blindness was that it's a survival mechanism.

137
00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:22,600
Speaker 1: Doctor Fried explained that our brains block out information that

138
00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:24,920
Speaker 1: could threaten vital relationships.

139
00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:30,120
Speaker 2: We are programmed to fall in love with people we

140
00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:33,360
Speaker 2: take care of, and people we take care of are

141
00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:36,480
Speaker 2: also programmed to fall in love with us. We have

142
00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:39,320
Speaker 2: a really strong attachment system. And it's a good It's

143
00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:43,800
Speaker 2: a beautiful thing. It makes life worth living. Is this

144
00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:47,079
Speaker 2: love that we feel? I mean, it keeps us alive.

145
00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:51,600
Speaker 1: Think of a child relying on a parent. The child

146
00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:55,360
Speaker 1: depends on that parent for love, food, and shelter, and

147
00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:58,079
Speaker 1: the child trusts the parent to continue to care for them.

148
00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:02,200
Speaker 2: But here's the problem. What happens if you've got an

149
00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:08,000
Speaker 2: abuse of parent? What happens if the parent is the betrayer.

150
00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:14,760
Speaker 2: If you withdraw or confront, you risk not getting your

151
00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:18,840
Speaker 2: survival needs met at all, or you may get more abuse.

152
00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:23,000
Speaker 2: It's not safe. The solution out of that is what

153
00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:28,920
Speaker 2: I came to call betrayal blindness. The attachment system matters more.

154
00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:33,439
Speaker 2: It's great to detect betrayal, but attachment matters more if

155
00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:34,480
Speaker 2: it's keeping you alive.

156
00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:39,600
Speaker 1: Our brains are constantly making choices about what information matters.

157
00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:47,120
Speaker 2: Most humans are amazing in how they filter information. We

158
00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:51,760
Speaker 2: do it all the time. We sort information out as

159
00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:55,000
Speaker 2: it's coming into the eyes and the ears and the nose.

160
00:10:55,960 --> 00:11:01,239
Speaker 1: That filtering happens subconsciously. We don't notice it all experienced

161
00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:03,440
Speaker 1: it like when you're in a crowded room.

162
00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:07,760
Speaker 2: Even though there's twenty people talking at the same time.

163
00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:10,239
Speaker 2: You're not going to hear other parts of the conversation,

164
00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:13,320
Speaker 2: but suddenly your name pops out at you, or you know,

165
00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:15,960
Speaker 2: if there's a really juicy topic they're talking about, some

166
00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:18,560
Speaker 2: good gossip over in the corner, you might suddenly be

167
00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:22,680
Speaker 2: aware of that conversation. All that time, your brain has

168
00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:25,960
Speaker 2: been filtering out the information coming in and kind of

169
00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:30,079
Speaker 2: deciding which parts of it to be aware of, because

170
00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:31,680
Speaker 2: we can't be aware of everything at once.

171
00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:35,920
Speaker 1: It can be unsettling to think about, but our brains

172
00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:40,240
Speaker 1: are always selecting what we perceive and how we interpret

173
00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:44,800
Speaker 1: that information, and when terrible things happen, our brains work

174
00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:50,480
Speaker 1: to preserve important relationships. We can subconsciously delete information, or

175
00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:54,720
Speaker 1: sometimes even when we know the information, when we saw

176
00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:59,400
Speaker 1: and experienced something firsthand, our brain can create an entirely

177
00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:00,000
Speaker 1: new story.

178
00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:03,040
Speaker 2: It's not just that we can block out information and

179
00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:05,200
Speaker 2: not see things right in front of us or not

180
00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:09,559
Speaker 2: remember things that happen. There are other ways we can

181
00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:15,640
Speaker 2: twist reality. So for some people, the way they engage

182
00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:20,600
Speaker 2: in betrayal blindness, they see the events happening, they remember it,

183
00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:27,599
Speaker 2: but they twist around who's responsible, so they blame themselves,

184
00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:29,360
Speaker 2: not the person who's harming them.

185
00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:34,400
Speaker 1: Like doctor Fried explained, this is a survival mechanism. That's

186
00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:39,319
Speaker 1: why she first conceptualized betrayal blindness using the parent child relationship,

187
00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:44,040
Speaker 1: because it's an essential relationship for that child survival. But

188
00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:46,680
Speaker 1: adults experience betrayal blindness too.

189
00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:53,800
Speaker 2: For many people, their intimate marriage or partnership relationships have

190
00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:58,840
Speaker 2: these same dynamics, where one party feels very dependent on

191
00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:02,480
Speaker 2: the other. They may be financially dependent, they may be

192
00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:06,559
Speaker 2: emotionally dependent, they may have been betrayed themselves in childhood,

193
00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:12,680
Speaker 2: whatever it is. Adults can also have terrible betrayal blindness,

194
00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:17,640
Speaker 2: and sometimes that is also serving a major survival benefit.

195
00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:20,880
Speaker 2: If you are dependent on your partner and your partner's

196
00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:26,840
Speaker 2: betraying you and you confront or withdraw, you risk potentially

197
00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:33,319
Speaker 2: losing access to resources you need. It's serving enormous survival

198
00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:37,959
Speaker 2: benefit for many people in many situations, but it does

199
00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:41,640
Speaker 2: come at a cost. If you don't see it, it's

200
00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:45,160
Speaker 2: hard to stop it, it's hard to get help, it's

201
00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:47,800
Speaker 2: hard to get justice if you don't see it.

202
00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:08,840
Speaker 1: Doctor Jennifer Fried is the leading expert on betrayal trauma,

203
00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:12,200
Speaker 1: but she also has researched the psychology of people that

204
00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:16,959
Speaker 1: commit betrayals. She has identified common tactics that perpetrators use

205
00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:21,560
Speaker 1: to keep victims quiet. She calls this collection of tactics DARVO.

206
00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:28,160
Speaker 2: DARVO is an acronym that stands for deny, attack and

207
00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:33,240
Speaker 2: reverse victim and offender, and it's a tactic that perpetrators

208
00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:38,840
Speaker 2: can use when they're being held accountable for a misbehavior.

209
00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:43,080
Speaker 1: We asked doctor Fried to break down the elements of DARVO.

210
00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:48,800
Speaker 2: The denial typically is aggressive, a little over the top,

211
00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:55,280
Speaker 2: very angry denial. The attack is often an attack on credibility.

212
00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:59,680
Speaker 2: It often takes the form of saying, you know you're drunk,

213
00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:04,040
Speaker 2: or you're mentally unhealthy, or they're sitting wrong with your memory.

214
00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:07,680
Speaker 2: And the RVO is the most insidious part. This is

215
00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:11,840
Speaker 2: reversing victim and offender, and this is when the true

216
00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:17,240
Speaker 2: victim gets put into the offender role by daring to

217
00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:18,440
Speaker 2: make this accusation.

218
00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:23,160
Speaker 1: Even just hearing this description, we thought of Caroline's story,

219
00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:26,320
Speaker 1: like the time she heard about Joel having an affair

220
00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:30,760
Speaker 1: with their tenant. Joel denied the accusation, and he even

221
00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:33,520
Speaker 1: went with Caroline to confront her, this.

222
00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,400
Speaker 5: Psychopath is gotting on the road to a divorce.

223
00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:37,440
Speaker 6: My kids won't be.

224
00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:38,040
Speaker 5: Out of the house.

225
00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:43,360
Speaker 1: Instead of taking accountability, he made himself the victim. Then

226
00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:47,280
Speaker 1: there was the moment Caroline confronted Joel about lying about

227
00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:49,920
Speaker 1: where he was in the middle of the night. He

228
00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:52,840
Speaker 1: said he was at an accident scene, but his location

229
00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:57,280
Speaker 1: on Life three sixty told a different story. Caroline described

230
00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:01,240
Speaker 1: Joel exhibiting the first element of darvo denial.

231
00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:04,280
Speaker 4: Oh my god, that'd be a wrong cell phone tower

232
00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:06,640
Speaker 4: pinging and I was not even close to.

233
00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:10,360
Speaker 1: Their than the second element, Joel attacked her.

234
00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:12,520
Speaker 4: Why would you say that? Don't you think I want

235
00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:13,040
Speaker 4: to be home?

236
00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:17,800
Speaker 1: And finally the third element, Joel reversed the victim and offender.

237
00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:21,840
Speaker 1: He made her feel as though she had done something wrong.

238
00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:26,640
Speaker 4: I start feeling guilty for asking him something that I

239
00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:29,880
Speaker 4: factually see, and then I start doubting myself and almost

240
00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:33,440
Speaker 4: believing could a cell phone tower ping wrong on Life

241
00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:34,000
Speaker 4: three sixty?

242
00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:34,480
Speaker 5: Is that?

243
00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:36,040
Speaker 4: Is that even possible?

244
00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:41,640
Speaker 2: We found that one of the consequences of being darvoed

245
00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:45,800
Speaker 2: when somebody does that to you is blaming yourself. When

246
00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:48,520
Speaker 2: people blame themselves, they're much more likely to go silent,

247
00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:52,200
Speaker 2: And so if the perpetrator's goal is to get the

248
00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:56,400
Speaker 2: victim to be silent, darvo has that effect too.

249
00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:02,160
Speaker 1: This strategy worked on Caroline, kept her doubting herself instead

250
00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:06,199
Speaker 1: of doubting Joel. And Darvo is not just a tactic

251
00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:10,680
Speaker 1: used interpersonally. It's commonly used in trials.

252
00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:15,600
Speaker 2: It's often a technique used by defense attorneys in say

253
00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:20,160
Speaker 2: a sexual abuse case, where the defense attorney will very

254
00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:24,720
Speaker 2: consciously deny on behalf of their client the event happened,

255
00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:28,840
Speaker 2: and attacked the credibility of the victim, and then reverse

256
00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:33,520
Speaker 2: victim and offender by painting the true victim as the

257
00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:34,720
Speaker 2: offender in the situation.

258
00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:38,040
Speaker 1: This also made us think of Joel and how he

259
00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:41,160
Speaker 1: shifted the blame onto his home life during his Internal

260
00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:45,160
Speaker 1: Affairs interviews. We played Doctor Fried this tape from when

261
00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:48,000
Speaker 1: he was investigated for sexually harassing reporters.

262
00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:58,600
Speaker 5: I'm sorry, okay, things were good at home, and I

263
00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:03,320
Speaker 5: think I to the trap of, you know, being excited

264
00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:04,120
Speaker 5: about the attention.

265
00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:10,920
Speaker 2: What he does in the clip is really puts himself

266
00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:15,280
Speaker 2: into the victim role, you know, that crying and the

267
00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:19,840
Speaker 2: way he's painting himself. You know, he's a person who

268
00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,600
Speaker 2: we might want to feel sorry for. He sort of

269
00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:26,200
Speaker 2: put himself in the position of the one being wronged.

270
00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:31,760
Speaker 1: In this next clip, Joel goes even farther. When Internal

271
00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:35,160
Speaker 1: Affairs demanded accountability for having sex in his police car,

272
00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:40,000
Speaker 1: he put the responsibility of his rehabilitation on the police department.

273
00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:44,439
Speaker 1: In his interview as part of the IA investigation, he

274
00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:47,040
Speaker 1: said the following, we pay a lot.

275
00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:50,520
Speaker 6: Of lip service about our employees as our family and

276
00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:53,720
Speaker 6: all that. But I like to maybe somehow believe in

277
00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:58,800
Speaker 6: that and recognize that I've had issues, and I've had

278
00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:05,040
Speaker 6: issues for a long long time, and every day is

279
00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:06,720
Speaker 6: a struggle and I want help.

280
00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:11,919
Speaker 2: There may be a truth to all that in the

281
00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:14,119
Speaker 2: sense that you know, he has issues and it's been

282
00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:17,960
Speaker 2: a traumatic job, but it's a way to deflect responsibility

283
00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:22,280
Speaker 2: regarding his own behavior in a police car with this woman.

284
00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:27,520
Speaker 1: Doctor Fried can't speak to Joel's specific psychological profile, but

285
00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:30,879
Speaker 1: she says in her research she's learned a lot about

286
00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,240
Speaker 1: the kinds of people who use darvo.

287
00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:38,800
Speaker 2: People that use darvo are quite a bit more likely

288
00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:42,560
Speaker 2: to also engage in sexually harassing behaviors.

289
00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:46,719
Speaker 1: Once again, Joel appeared to align with the profile Doctor

290
00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:50,959
Speaker 1: Fried developed. You may recall from an earlier episode his

291
00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:54,840
Speaker 1: behavior had grown so disruptive that he was eventually banned

292
00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:59,440
Speaker 1: from the family doctor's office. Caroline learned the truth when

293
00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:02,240
Speaker 1: she went to get tested for STDs.

294
00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:06,160
Speaker 4: And so she does a full exam and she leaves

295
00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:08,040
Speaker 4: the room, and when she came back in, she just

296
00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:11,720
Speaker 4: had this horrible, kind of fearful look on her face.

297
00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:16,360
Speaker 4: And I just was sobbing, and I said, you can

298
00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:18,479
Speaker 4: tell I have something, can't you. You can already tell I

299
00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:21,879
Speaker 4: have something? And she shook her head and she said no,

300
00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,320
Speaker 4: And she said she was debating on telling me that

301
00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:31,159
Speaker 4: Joel had essentially been blacklisted from seeing her because he

302
00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:34,680
Speaker 4: had come in four different appointments before and had been

303
00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,919
Speaker 4: and appropriate with his commentary and very sexualized with his

304
00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:42,080
Speaker 4: commentary toward her, and I was mortified.

305
00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:48,040
Speaker 1: Doctor Fried offered more details about people who use DARVO.

306
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:53,520
Speaker 2: They are more likely to hold beliefs that blame women

307
00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:58,399
Speaker 2: for being victims, and they are more likely to have

308
00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:03,240
Speaker 2: certain personality characters aristics three in particular that are often

309
00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:08,439
Speaker 2: called the Dark triad narcissism, machia, alianism, and psychopathy.

310
00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:13,000
Speaker 1: People with Dark Triad characteristics can be cunning, self interested,

311
00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:16,840
Speaker 1: and manipulative. They often lack empathy and are willing to

312
00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:19,080
Speaker 1: exploit others to achieve their goals.

313
00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:22,280
Speaker 2: It doesn't mean if somebody uses darvaux they are for

314
00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,560
Speaker 2: sure any of those things, just it's just much more likely.

315
00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:30,480
Speaker 1: Doctor Fried's research does offer one encouraging insight.

316
00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:35,560
Speaker 2: We find if we educate people about DARVA, it reduces

317
00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:39,760
Speaker 2: the power of DARVA. If people know that this is

318
00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:42,360
Speaker 2: a pattern, they're not as swayed by it.

319
00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:04,159
Speaker 1: We've been talking to betrayal trauma researcher doctor Jennifer Fried.

320
00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:09,440
Speaker 1: Her groundbreaking work has transformed how we understand and support

321
00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:13,359
Speaker 1: victims of betrayal. One reason we wanted to speak with

322
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,440
Speaker 1: her for this season is her focus on a concept

323
00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:19,000
Speaker 1: she's termed institutional betrayal.

324
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:24,760
Speaker 2: Institutional betrayal, in its broadest sense, is when the perpetrator

325
00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:27,959
Speaker 2: of a betrayal is just something larger than one person.

326
00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:32,200
Speaker 2: So families are little, tiny institutions. It can be a family,

327
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,359
Speaker 2: it can be you know, the workplace. It can be

328
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:38,720
Speaker 2: the church, or the school, or the government. It's the

329
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:43,600
Speaker 2: larger entity that is betraying somebody who is dependent on

330
00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:48,560
Speaker 2: that institution, cares for it, very often loves the institution.

331
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:54,960
Speaker 2: So the dynamics of betrayal trauma all apply to institution betrayal.

332
00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,960
Speaker 1: After Joel was exposed, no one in the department came

333
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:06,000
Speaker 1: to Caroline's aid. She felt shut out and alone. Doctor

334
00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:10,840
Speaker 1: Fred's research confirms this added layer of betrayal can be devastating.

335
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:16,360
Speaker 2: People are very vulnerable to being hurt by institutions. They

336
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:20,840
Speaker 2: trust it and depend on fail to protect them, fail

337
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:24,400
Speaker 2: to respond well when they've been harmed in that institution.

338
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 2: It's a whole new level of harm. I sometimes think

339
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:30,360
Speaker 2: of it like the second concussion, where you know it's

340
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,320
Speaker 2: bad to be hitting the head once, but then you

341
00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:35,479
Speaker 2: go and you hit the head again. That's, you know,

342
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:36,320
Speaker 2: way worse.

343
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:41,720
Speaker 1: Doctor Fred explains the way we depend on institutions is

344
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:44,240
Speaker 1: a lot like the way we depend on people in

345
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:44,880
Speaker 1: our lives.

346
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,400
Speaker 2: Almost everyone has some institution they love. Most people love

347
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:53,360
Speaker 2: their family, Most people love their church if they have one,

348
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:58,160
Speaker 2: or their school. They have emotional attachments, and the institutions

349
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,879
Speaker 2: can't actually love you back. But it does stop people

350
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,640
Speaker 2: from loving the institutions. And that's not a bad thing

351
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,639
Speaker 2: that we love institutions, just a very human thing, but

352
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 2: it does make us vulnerable to the harm of betrayal.

353
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:15,640
Speaker 1: Doctor Fried found this idea of institutional betrayal deeply troubling,

354
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,120
Speaker 1: but it also felt like an exciting issue to tackle,

355
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,800
Speaker 1: one Doctor Fried and her students could have a real

356
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:24,359
Speaker 1: impact on ess.

357
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 2: Actually easier to think about fixing an institution than fixing

358
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,720
Speaker 2: all the interpersonal violence in the United States, and we

359
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:37,480
Speaker 2: developed steps one can take to make institutions less betraying.

360
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:42,600
Speaker 1: These steps and the idea that institutions can prevent further betrayal,

361
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:47,639
Speaker 1: make up doctor Fried's theory of institutional courage. One of

362
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,600
Speaker 1: the main steps is transparency.

363
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:59,120
Speaker 2: Betrayal really loves secrecy and really doesn't survive transparency very

364
00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:04,680
Speaker 2: well at all. In families where you've got institutional betrayal occurring,

365
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:08,640
Speaker 2: there's almost always secrets. They're things that aren't known, can't

366
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:13,200
Speaker 2: be talked about, and most therapists of healthy family systems

367
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,359
Speaker 2: will tell you that secrets are bad for families, and

368
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,920
Speaker 2: the more that can be shared openly and transparently the better.

369
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:24,960
Speaker 2: The more transparency, the less likely these betraying things will occur.

370
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:29,359
Speaker 1: This made us think of Caroline too. She made the

371
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,639
Speaker 1: choice to be very transparent with her children about what

372
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:36,440
Speaker 1: Joel had done. We asked doctor Fried for her opinion

373
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 1: on this.

374
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 2: It's interesting because if you were talking about eight to

375
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 2: nine year olds, this would be a tougher issue. With children,

376
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,160
Speaker 2: you know, you have to be sensitive to their developmental

377
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 2: stage and not overwhelm them with information they may not

378
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 2: really have a way to understand. By the time you're sixteen,

379
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 2: that's no longer really an issue. Sixteen seventeen and certainly

380
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 2: eighteen twenty year olds are fully capable of understanding these

381
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:09,280
Speaker 2: source of issues and are only going to benefit from

382
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:13,200
Speaker 2: honesty and only going to suffer from secrets.

383
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 1: She also brought up that this isn't just a question

384
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 1: of knowing or not knowing. Transparency in this case is

385
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 1: key to ensuring the cycle of betrayal ends with Joel.

386
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 2: Secrecy is corrosive. Secrecy allows dysfunctional, harmful patterns to repeat

387
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:37,240
Speaker 2: over and over again. One way to think about this

388
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 2: is in terms of what's the probability that our teenager

389
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:46,119
Speaker 2: who grows up in a family like this goes on

390
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:52,160
Speaker 2: to repeat this dynamic as an adult, versus the probability

391
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 2: they go on to have a healthy relationship when they

392
00:26:54,920 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 2: develop their own family. The more things are hid unspoken secret,

393
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,920
Speaker 2: the more likely they are to just repeat it. One

394
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:09,160
Speaker 2: of the best ways to kind of innoculate people from

395
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 2: repeating dysfunctional family dynamics is to really shine a light

396
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:19,400
Speaker 2: on them and be fully honest about what was messed up,

397
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,160
Speaker 2: giving people that conscious awareness so they can choose not

398
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:23,919
Speaker 2: to repeat that.

399
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,200
Speaker 1: We played Doctor Fried. A clip of Caroline Son speaking

400
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:29,920
Speaker 1: about this issue.

401
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 3: I wanted to know everything.

402
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:35,560
Speaker 2: The truth hurt, but it was powerful and it was needed.

403
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 3: That was the only way to move forward.

404
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,679
Speaker 2: One of the things that struck me in that clip

405
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 2: is how much courage this young man has as well.

406
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 2: It's not like he wants to learn that his father's

407
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 2: done harmful things. It takes courage to learn that, but

408
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 2: it does make it possible for him to support the

409
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:03,600
Speaker 2: other family members in a really meaningful way and for

410
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 2: him to go and develop his own life without repeating

411
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 2: this harmful pattern.

412
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:15,919
Speaker 1: The need for transparency also applies to larger institutions. Doctor

413
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,160
Speaker 1: Fried pointed to the issue of sexual assault in the military.

414
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 2: What people who've experienced that very often say is that

415
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 2: when they went to the authorities in the military to

416
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:35,199
Speaker 2: report what had happened, what happened after that from the

417
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 2: authorities in the military was even worse than the sexual

418
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 2: assault in the first place.

419
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 1: When victims aren't taken seriously or investigations are dropped or

420
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 1: covered up, it adds to the pain.

421
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 2: We've compared groups of military sexual trauma survivors who went

422
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 2: on to have an institutional betrayal experience versus ones who didn't.

423
00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 2: Everybody you know had bad effects from the sexual trump.

424
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 2: But the ones who went on to have institutional betrayal

425
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 2: on top of that, we're doing much worse. In fact,

426
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 2: we're even more likely to attempt suicide. That's how bad

427
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 2: it is. So we know from now dozens of studies

428
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 2: that institutional betrayal harms people over and above the interpersonal

429
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 2: betrayals they've experienced.

430
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 1: The institution can counteract this by taking accountability for the

431
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 1: wrongs for being complicit or even directly eating in betrayal.

432
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 2: If they have the courage to really look at what's happened,

433
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 2: then they can move forward in a healthier way.

434
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 1: This examination is especially needed when the perpetrator walks away.

435
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 2: One of the things that can really help healing is

436
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 2: having a community that validates the reality. Even if the

437
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:59,480
Speaker 2: betrayer never fully discloses or fully takes account a community

438
00:29:59,520 --> 00:29:59,959
Speaker 2: around them.

439
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:04,320
Speaker 1: Ken Caroline may never get that validation from the CSPD,

440
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 1: but doctor Fried says Caroline is doing what she can

441
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 1: to take healing into her own hands.

442
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 2: There's a wonderful quote that I won't get exactly right

443
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 2: from trauma therist Judith Hermann. The antidote to despair is activism,

444
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 2: and activism can take many paths, but sounds like in

445
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 2: Caroline's case, her telling her story is activism because she's

446
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 2: being courageous. She's sharing her vulnerability, her personal pain, all

447
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 2: with the hope that it will help other people.

448
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 1: Thank you to doctor Jennifer Fried. If you want to

449
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 1: learn more about betrayal trauma, we highly recommend her book

450
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 1: Blind to Betrayal. You can all so check out the

451
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 1: Center for Institutional Courage, a nonprofit founded by doctor Fried.

452
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 1: It's dedicated to understanding institutional betrayal and the steps needed

453
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 1: to prevent and counteract it through institutional Courage. We've linked

454
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 1: the book and the nonprofit in the show notes. This

455
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 1: is the final episode of season four, Caroline story. If

456
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 1: this story resonated with you, or if you have a

457
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 1: betrayal experience of your own to share, you can write

458
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 1: to us at Betrayalpod at gmail dot com. We'll be

459
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 1: back with new weekly stories starting August seventh. Thank you

460
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 1: for listening to Betrayal Season four. If you would like

461
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 1: to reach out to the Betrayal team, email us at

462
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 1: Betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal Pod at gmail

463
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 1: dot com. Also, please be sure to follow us at

464
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 1: Glass Podcasts. On Instagram for all Betrayal content, news and updates.

465
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 1: One way to support the series is by subscribing to

466
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 1: our show on Apple Podcasts. Please rate and review Betrayal

467
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 1: five star reviews help us know youppreciate what we do.

468
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 1: Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of

469
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 1: Glass Entertainment Group and partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show

470
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 1: is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason. Betrayal

471
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 1: is hosted and produced by me Andrea Gunning, written and

472
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 1: produced by Kerrie Hartman and Caitlin Golden. Story editing and

473
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 1: producing by Monique Leboard, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our

474
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 1: associate producer is Kristin Melcurie. Our iHeart team is Ali

475
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 1: Perry and Jessica Krincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt Alvecchio,

476
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 1: editing by Tanner Robbins, and special thanks to Caroline and

477
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 1: her family. Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines. Music

478
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 1: library provided by my Music and For more podcasts from iHeart,

479
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts for wherever you get

480
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 1: your podcasts