1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:02,759 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:08,240 Speaker 2: This episode contains discussion of suicide. Listener discretion is advised. 3 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 1: So many stories half told and half heard, so many 4 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: grim intimations, so many obfuscating euphemisms. We were a classic 5 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: New England family, incapable of discussing such things openly, everything 6 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 1: enveloped in a haze of mystery and shame. There was 7 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 1: nothing I could do with the questions that I had, 8 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 1: the unmanageable anger and fear and nameless other feelings. I 9 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:41,879 Speaker 1: was having no place to put it all, so I 10 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:46,880 Speaker 1: kept it inside. When you can't talk about something, you're 11 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 1: prevented from naming and describing it, from making it real. 12 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 1: And what you can't name and describe and make real 13 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 1: becomes infinite and limitless and impossible to decipher or resolve, 14 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: because it can band to fill your whole life and 15 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: self to its tiniest corners, or it can shrink to nothing, 16 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:11,400 Speaker 1: nothing being the size of things that are not real. 17 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: You are alone with it, with yourself, with this unsolvable problem. 18 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:26,320 Speaker 2: That's Isaac Fitzgerald, frequent contributor to The Today Show and 19 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 2: author of the New York Times bestselling memoir Dirt bag, Massachusetts. 20 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:34,400 Speaker 2: Isaac's is a story about the intricate dance between shame 21 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 2: and secrecy, and the complex process of putting our burdens down, 22 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 2: then picking them up again, and onward we go, doing 23 00:01:43,680 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 2: our best, trying, failing, failing better. I'm Danny Shapiro and 24 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 2: this is family secrets, the secrets that are kept from us, 25 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 2: the secrets we keep from others, and the secrets we 26 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 2: keep from ourselves. 27 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: So my parents were married when they had me, just 28 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 1: to different people. And that is a line that I've 29 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 1: used throughout my life, and it is a line that 30 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:30,800 Speaker 1: I learned very early in my life. As I grew older, 31 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 1: I did get to know my parents better and I 32 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 1: did get to hear more of their history. They met 33 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:39,920 Speaker 1: at Theology School, of all places, to have an affair. 34 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 1: My mother was married to a Unitarian minister. My father 35 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 1: was I think, a very smart man, but a bit 36 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:52,639 Speaker 1: at sea, a bit lost, and had gone to school 37 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 1: maybe to try and find an anchor of some sort, 38 00:02:56,000 --> 00:03:00,519 Speaker 1: and instead they found each other. My mom's family could 39 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 1: be a bit harsh, would be one way to put it. 40 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 1: Is a very common New England family. Could be another 41 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:08,919 Speaker 1: way to put it, which is to say a little 42 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:14,079 Speaker 1: withholding a little judgmental. My father came from an Irish family, 43 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 1: a little more open, a little more joyful, but his 44 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: parents had both been mill workers, my mother's parents farmers, 45 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 1: and so they both came from little meets. When they met, 46 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 1: fell in love, had an affair. Eventually, my mother told 47 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 1: my father that it couldn't go on. She cut it off. 48 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: They both had young children, my half brother and my 49 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: half sister, and not long after that my mom realized 50 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 1: that she was pregnant with me. So the way that 51 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: I viewed the landscape of my childhood for many years 52 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 1: was that I was a bomb that blew up my parents' lives, 53 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: and not just their lives, but the lives of their partner, 54 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 1: the lives of their children, my half siblings. I felt 55 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 1: like I'd really come in and wrecked a lot of things. 56 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 1: And it took me a lifetime to recognize that that 57 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 1: kind of shameful version of the story that I held 58 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:17,720 Speaker 1: with me for so long was, of course, not the 59 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:19,839 Speaker 1: full story, and not the way that even my parents 60 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:22,600 Speaker 1: would describe it, That my siblings would describe it, even 61 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 1: their partners would describe it. So that was their story, 62 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 1: and then for me my childhood. The earliest years on 63 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:36,280 Speaker 1: paper would be the ones you might think were the worst, 64 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:39,600 Speaker 1: which is both of my parents kind of rejected from 65 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 1: their families, eventually telling their partners the truth, didn't have 66 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 1: a home and said they turned to the Catholic Worker. 67 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:49,839 Speaker 1: If you're unfamiliar with the Catholic Worker started by Dorothy Day, 68 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: it is a socialist, really believing in the Bible, give 69 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:59,039 Speaker 1: the shirt off your back to help your neighbor. Organization 70 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:04,720 Speaker 1: much less Vatican, much less you know, opulence, and much more. 71 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:08,160 Speaker 1: How can we help one another? And that is the situation. 72 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 1: I was raised and raised in an unhaf shelter, eventually 73 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:13,599 Speaker 1: making our way to a place called John Larry House, 74 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:16,920 Speaker 1: which is kind of like a halfway home run by 75 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 1: the Catholic Worker. You look at that on paper and 76 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 1: you'd think, oh, those must have been the hard years. 77 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 1: But in this interesting way, those were the happiest years 78 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:26,599 Speaker 1: of my life. 79 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:31,599 Speaker 2: So those years, you know, up until age eight, you're 80 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:35,600 Speaker 2: living in these facilities that are under the auspices of 81 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 2: the Catholic Worker. Correct, does it feel like a community? Literally? 82 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 2: The landscape? What was it like? 83 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 1: You know? I remember this big sign that I'm pretty sure, 84 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 1: said like no drugs, no drinking, no violence. There were 85 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:53,039 Speaker 1: people from of course, all different types of backgrounds, but 86 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:57,719 Speaker 1: you had altercations. Absolutely difficult place to have a kid. 87 00:05:57,960 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 2: Were there other kids around. 88 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 1: Not many, every once in a while, but for the 89 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 1: most part is a very adult place. But the other 90 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 1: aspect of it is it was this incredible community and 91 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 1: people for the most part. Of course, you had your 92 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 1: moments of sharpness or violence, but for the most part, 93 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 1: what you had were people watching out for one another, 94 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 1: were people taking care of one another. I was a 95 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:25,280 Speaker 1: very talkative kid. I was a very inquisitive kid. I'm 96 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 1: sure at times, especially somebody with a hangover or just 97 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: having a really rough day, I'm sure I annoyed the 98 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 1: heck out of them. But for every one of those moments, 99 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:37,039 Speaker 1: there were so many people who tried to be charming 100 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:39,360 Speaker 1: to me, who would tell me stories, who would try 101 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:43,840 Speaker 1: to entertain me with magic tricks or long tales. There 102 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:46,359 Speaker 1: was one guy named Albert. He always called me the Captain. 103 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:48,599 Speaker 1: I don't know why he called me the Captain, but 104 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 1: I know that I loved it so so much, And 105 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 1: so it was also this really joyous, wonderful place. I 106 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 1: mean the food. It wasn't going to win any awards, 107 00:06:58,000 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: but there was a lot of it, and everybody was 108 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:03,280 Speaker 1: sharing and everybody lended a hand. And that's what I 109 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 1: really remember. And I remember my parents very early on 110 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 1: went from this situation where they were there because they 111 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 1: didn't have a place to go. But the more they 112 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 1: became involved with the community, the stronger they got. And 113 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: that was something that I even as a child, I 114 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 1: could just kind of feel that, and so that place 115 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 1: was very very special to me. 116 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 2: And how was your parents' marriage during those years, How 117 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 2: did that period of time kind of impact them? 118 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 1: Well, so that's I mean, this is the thing. They 119 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 1: were trying to get their feet under them. They were 120 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 1: both in their early to mid thirties, and through the 121 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 1: Catholic worker they eventually got jobs, and then they eventually 122 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: got better jobs. And so it gets to the point 123 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 1: where my mother's working at the Cathedral the Holy Cross 124 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 1: there in Boston and my father gets a job at 125 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: a Catholic school teacher. Incredible. It's an incredible moment and 126 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 1: something I think they both felt very proud of. But 127 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 1: at the same time, you know, I'm not blowing anybody 128 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 1: away by saying being poor is very very hard. Getting 129 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 1: on your feet is very very hard. Especially you can 130 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 1: have the support of the Catholic worker. But when you're 131 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 1: lacking support from family and maybe you're feeling shameful about 132 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 1: everything that's happened, you know, life can be confusing and 133 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 1: can be complex. So their marriage was already I would 134 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 1: argue difficult. I think they were really thrown together in 135 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 1: all these different ways, and one of those ways was 136 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 1: me like, they made this commitment to stay together and 137 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 1: figure it out. And so there are arguments. There were 138 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:48,559 Speaker 1: difficult times, but for the most part, even with the difficulties, 139 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 1: those were the good years. And then it's when me 140 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: and my mother moved to north central Massachusetts that things 141 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 1: really took a turn. 142 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 2: Right. You're right about this very It's sweet and touching 143 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 2: and sort of funny and ironic all at once. But 144 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 2: the place that you were living was not far from 145 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:11,559 Speaker 2: Fenway Park in Boston, and your father would get the 146 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 2: you know, the cheapest, cheapest, cheapest seats, you know, way 147 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 2: high up, and then you'd find your way down to 148 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 2: the really good seats that people had that were empty. 149 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:22,559 Speaker 2: And then if an usher came along and checked your tickets, 150 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 2: your father would say, oh please, it's you know, if 151 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 2: nobody's using these seats, it's my son's first game. And 152 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 2: you write, I mean I must have had one hundred 153 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 2: first games at Fenway Park. And there was something so 154 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 2: I mean, on the one hand, your father's you know, 155 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 2: was a man of faith. He's doing something that's like 156 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 2: not so not so kosher, shall we say, And on 157 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:46,080 Speaker 2: the other hand, it's this very loving thing to do 158 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 2: that he just constantly wants to have. You have that experience. 159 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 1: It's a moment filled of love, and that's why I 160 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:54,199 Speaker 1: remember it so warmly. But yeah, it was this absolute 161 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:56,560 Speaker 1: act of love on his part, and that is something 162 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:01,199 Speaker 1: that I credit both of my parents. They had tough 163 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 1: decisions to make. They failed in a lot of ways, 164 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 1: I don't want to shy away from that, but they 165 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 1: also had these moments of brilliance. And I think that's 166 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 1: what makes families so complex, especially when you want to 167 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:16,559 Speaker 1: portray it with all its dirty parts, but also all 168 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 1: its good parts too. You know, these are human beings 169 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: that are doing their best for all their faults and 170 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:23,680 Speaker 1: all the struggles that they had. When I was young, 171 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:26,680 Speaker 1: another thing they gave me was just a love of books, 172 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:30,560 Speaker 1: a love of literature. No matter where we lived. You know, 173 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 1: a lot of the furniture we'd find on the street 174 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:35,080 Speaker 1: or whatever, but they always made sure that our books 175 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 1: came with us. They were taking me to the library 176 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:40,320 Speaker 1: whenever they weren't working, whenever they had the chance to. 177 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 1: They weren't giving me this cookie cutter, happy suburban childhood, 178 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 1: but they wanted to make sure that I at least 179 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 1: felt won the power of education, but to the power 180 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 1: of imagination. And so you bring up my dad being 181 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:55,959 Speaker 1: a man of faith, which is absolutely the truth of 182 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 1: my mother too, a woman of faith. But in that moment, 183 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 1: I think for he loved a little bit of a story. 184 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 1: He loved a little bit of an imagination of a 185 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 1: little bit of a con in a way, especially you know, 186 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 1: when there was nobody that was actually going to get 187 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 1: hurt by it. And that was that fun way part story. 188 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 2: Isaac's parents are indeed bound by their faith, their faith 189 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 2: in Catholicism as well as their faith in literature. These 190 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:27,119 Speaker 2: become obsessions for them, and in turn, they become obsessions 191 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 2: for Isaac too. This can happen when parents are hard 192 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 2: to hold onto. It's almost as if their obsessions and 193 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:39,680 Speaker 2: values become proxies for themselves, so Isaac holds on tight. 194 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 2: Things change for Isaac and his family when, at age eight, 195 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:46,679 Speaker 2: he is mugged at gunpoint. 196 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:50,960 Speaker 1: I was taking a shortcut home that of course, I 197 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 1: was told one hundred times not to take. The person 198 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:57,680 Speaker 1: who was mugging me apologizes, and at the time, I 199 00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 1: remember feeling like I was being really brave. And then 200 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:03,320 Speaker 1: I looked down and without even knowing it, I'd wet 201 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 1: myself and that's that's why the person apologized. I have 202 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 1: other memories of that time period. There was a Halloween 203 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 1: where a woman got in the head with a bottle. 204 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:13,960 Speaker 1: There you know, somebody had been shot on the front steps. 205 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:17,319 Speaker 1: There was blood on the sidewalk. My parents had been 206 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:21,319 Speaker 1: working to get their feet under them, and I think 207 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: they were starting to feel My father was becoming more 208 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:26,680 Speaker 1: secure in his role as an educator. My mother was 209 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:28,720 Speaker 1: feeling more secure in the role that she'd had at 210 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 1: the Cathedral of the Holy Cross. She'd learned these skills, 211 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: she knew how she could apply them to other jobs. 212 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 1: I think they started to realize we want to be 213 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:41,719 Speaker 1: in a better place. But like everything I'm saying here, right, 214 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 1: there's the romantic version. They're arguing a lot more. And 215 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 1: I think my mom maybe needed a break, and so 216 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 1: we moved to north central mass which is right next 217 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: to her parents. 218 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 2: Right, and so it being right next to her parents' place, 219 00:12:57,600 --> 00:12:59,840 Speaker 2: you know, in one world, could be a great thing, 220 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:03,839 Speaker 2: but that in fact comes with a lot of challenges. 221 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 1: My mother's mother was a very harsh and critical person, 222 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 1: and my mother had done everything right in my grandmother's 223 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 1: eyes up until when she didn't. And that was the 224 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 1: affair that was deciding to leave her first partner trying 225 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:27,440 Speaker 1: to start this family. She had a notion, which is 226 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:31,560 Speaker 1: you were cheating. He was cheating. This isn't going to work. 227 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 1: You should have stuck with your first marriage. And she 228 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 1: let those criticisms be known. At the same time, I 229 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,439 Speaker 1: think my mother was questioning a lot of where she 230 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:43,440 Speaker 1: was in life. I think when you're in your again 231 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:46,560 Speaker 1: it was early thirties to mid thirties to approaching forty, 232 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:49,440 Speaker 1: you start to wonder, have I made the right decisions? 233 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 1: What's going on? We have a society that treats women poorly, 234 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:58,959 Speaker 1: treats mothers poorly, and is very judgmental of them. And 235 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 1: you want to let's not forget we're talking now about 236 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 1: the eighties, the early nineties. I think there's a lot 237 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 1: of pressure that she was feeling, and so we moved 238 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 1: to this farmhouse that had no heat. There was a 239 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 1: cast iron wood stove in the middle. And my mother 240 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 1: doesn't really know anyone in the area, so all she 241 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 1: hasked is to go over and talk to her parents, 242 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:24,480 Speaker 1: who basically are telling her all the mistakes that she's 243 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 1: made over and over and over again and again. I 244 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 1: was young, I was eight years old. But you can 245 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 1: feel when the only other person in the house starts 246 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 1: to go dark. 247 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 2: We'll be right back. I think absorbs a great deal 248 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 2: of his grandmother's disapproval. After all, if she's unhappy about 249 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 2: his mother's choices, which began with his parents, it's a 250 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 2: fair and culminated in his berth. It would be hard 251 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 2: not to feel that his grandmother disapproves of his very 252 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 2: existence alone in that desolate farmhouse. The feeling that all 253 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 2: this is somehow his fault begins to set in. 254 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 1: I have this very clear memory. My mom once a 255 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 1: week would go over to her parents' house. I was 256 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 1: supposed to stay at the house, but I never would, 257 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 1: and I would kind of sneak over, and I remember 258 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: like looking through a window and she was crying. And 259 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 1: very soon after that she would start crying in the 260 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 1: house all the time as well, she would stop getting 261 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 1: out of bed. There are very very hard years, but 262 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 1: I just remember realizing that I'm the reason that she said. 263 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 1: That's how it sat inside me. So my grandmother would 264 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:50,920 Speaker 1: look at me as scants. My grandmother would be so 265 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 1: cold to me, and I realized it was because of 266 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 1: her her dislike for my father, but really it was 267 00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 1: this feeling that I had ruined her daughter, but just 268 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 1: by existing, and that wasn't something I couldn't fix. I 269 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: did not like sitting with this feeling of worthlessness, so 270 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 1: I started turning to books because there that would take 271 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 1: my mind off of everything that was happening their mound well. 272 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 2: And also I think with books it's not only the 273 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 2: distraction or this sort of escape into other worlds, but 274 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 2: also at times a feeling that there are other people 275 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 2: out there who have also felt some of these things. 276 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 1: That is exactly right. One of my favorite quotes comes 277 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 1: from the play The History Boys, and I'm probably not 278 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 1: going to say correctly here, so part of it for 279 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 1: not getting word to word. But it's basically like you 280 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 1: can be reading a book and you can come across 281 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: a line or a thought that is a thought or 282 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 1: a feeling that you thought only you had had you 283 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 1: truly you'd never shared it with anyone, and then you 284 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 1: see it there on the page, and it's like a 285 00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 1: hand comes out of the book and grabs your own. 286 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 1: All of a sudden, you feel less alone in the world. 287 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 1: And I think that's absolutely right. That is when I 288 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 1: had a very difficult conversation with my mother. At that point, 289 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 1: her mental health is starting to deteriorate. She's leaning on 290 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 1: me more and more. She started talking to me like 291 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 1: I was a friend, not like a child. She started 292 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 1: treating me like somebody she could lean on instead of 293 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:20,719 Speaker 1: take care of. 294 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 2: But Isaac needs to be taken care of. He's gone 295 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 2: from city poor to country poor. He misses his father, 296 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 2: he has a very disapproving set of grandparents, and he 297 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 2: feels in some way like he doesn't have any right 298 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 2: to be here at all. He writes, but he can 299 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 2: feel the trouble, though he can't at the time put 300 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:47,680 Speaker 2: words to it. Then if there are before and after 301 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:50,879 Speaker 2: moments in life when you hear something you can't unhear. 302 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:54,919 Speaker 2: You learn something you can't unlearn. This is one of 303 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 2: those moments for Isaac. His mother tells him something that 304 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:01,879 Speaker 2: perhaps no parent should ever tell a child. 305 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 1: All then forget, we're driving and it must have been 306 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:08,680 Speaker 1: a warm day, because I remember there was that shimmer 307 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 1: on the road, you know, where it almost looks like 308 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 1: the road is turning into water. And she basically tells 309 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:16,880 Speaker 1: me the story of when my parents met. And they're 310 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 1: at school and she decides, I'm gonna cut this affair off, 311 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:24,199 Speaker 1: and they actually went for one last day, would tell 312 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 1: their partners they were going on retreats for school with 313 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 1: other people at the school, but of course it was 314 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:30,199 Speaker 1: just the two of them, and they would go up 315 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 1: to the White Mountains in New Hampshire and that is 316 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:36,639 Speaker 1: where they would conduct their affair. And she shared so 317 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 1: much that I even know the mountain that I was 318 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 1: conceived on. I know that they were using birth control 319 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 1: and clearly it didn't take. And she shared with me 320 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: that because she'd broken up afterwards, she decided kind of 321 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:49,920 Speaker 1: not to talk to my dad for a little bit, 322 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 1: and she had to decide. She walked me through every 323 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 1: decision she thought she was like maybe I could tell 324 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 1: her partner at the time, maybe we could just this 325 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 1: is your kid. Maybe okay, maybe I tell the truth, 326 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 1: but maybe there's forgiveness there and then she can seers 327 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 1: her maybe I can have an abortion. And she goes 328 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:11,880 Speaker 1: so far as telling me that she scheduled the abortion, 329 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 1: and she got to the clinic and she got to 330 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 1: the front room and that is when she decided not 331 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:22,119 Speaker 1: to and she walked out. But then she ended it 332 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:23,920 Speaker 1: the way she started, and she told me all this, 333 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 1: this wall of words, its wave of words, and she 334 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 1: just said, but maybe it would have been for the best. 335 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:33,199 Speaker 1: And that's what rings in my head. And this is 336 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:36,360 Speaker 1: the difficult thing you want to talk about. Family secrets 337 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 1: or secrets we don't tell ourselves, the secrets we don't 338 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:41,239 Speaker 1: share with other people, but we know are in our 339 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 1: heart at all times. There's a way where I can 340 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:47,679 Speaker 1: look at my entire life and we can get to 341 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:52,360 Speaker 1: the complex relationship with my parents now. But maybe it's 342 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 1: for the best. That's not wrong. There is a world 343 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 1: where if she had made that choice, her life might 344 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 1: have been a lot move there. And I know if 345 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:03,959 Speaker 1: she was here in this room and I said that, 346 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:06,679 Speaker 1: she would be so angry at me because I know 347 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 1: she loves me. I know she loves me, but maybe 348 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:11,960 Speaker 1: for the best. Maybe that's not the right way to 349 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:13,359 Speaker 1: put it. But if you want to say, maybe it 350 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:18,359 Speaker 1: would have been easier, she's probably right. And I didn't 351 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 1: understand that at eight, of course, but I definitely did 352 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:22,879 Speaker 1: by the time when I was fourteen, and I was 353 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:24,120 Speaker 1: able to see that for her. 354 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, which only contributes to that sense of being the bomb. 355 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 2: Exactly During this time, Isaac's mother's mental health deteriorates. She 356 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:38,959 Speaker 2: attempts to take her life a number of times. 357 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:43,360 Speaker 1: It was just me and her with her very critical 358 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 1: parents next door, and she was grappling with shame, and 359 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:51,359 Speaker 1: she didn't have anyone to talk to about it. And 360 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 1: I didn't know what to do. I mean, I knew 361 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:55,639 Speaker 1: how to cook spaghettio's. I knew how to try and 362 00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 1: get her out of bed so she could get to 363 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 1: her job. I knew. I started doing a lot of 364 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:04,400 Speaker 1: the caretaking. We had a washer, we didn't have a dryer, 365 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 1: hanging clothes on the clothesline. I just watched, as you know, 366 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:11,720 Speaker 1: I didn't have the words for at the time, but 367 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 1: as her mental health deteriorated, and eventually that turned into 368 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 1: basically kind of crying all the time, or being quiet 369 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 1: all the time, or not being able to get out 370 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:27,879 Speaker 1: of bed. Manifested in one time. The memory I have, 371 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:30,960 Speaker 1: which is so this is you know, not every memory 372 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 1: we have right as crystal clear. But she was wearing 373 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 1: a green Champion sweatshirt and she had a knife in 374 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:39,920 Speaker 1: her hand, and she went to stab herself in the stomach, 375 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:43,440 Speaker 1: and I remember grabbing her and saying no, no, no, 376 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:45,920 Speaker 1: no no, and crying. Now, I want to be very clear, 377 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 1: she didn't cut into her skin. She cut that sweatshirt. 378 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 1: She cut that sweatshirt, but she was She's having these 379 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:56,120 Speaker 1: outbursts in these moments. Around this time, my father actually 380 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 1: does move out, makes the decision to move out. In 381 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:01,159 Speaker 1: my mind, and things are going to get better, but 382 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 1: actually they get worse because while he was in the city, 383 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:06,920 Speaker 1: he had another affair. My mother finds out about it. 384 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 1: This does not help with the mental health that she's having. 385 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 1: And even as he comes out, I would argue to 386 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:16,639 Speaker 1: try and make amends, it's almost like gasoline is added 387 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 1: to the fire. Now they are fighting constantly. He sees 388 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:22,640 Speaker 1: what I'm doing with her he sees how I'm trying 389 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 1: to help her in these ways, but I at one 390 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 1: point I have to call an ambulance because of the 391 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 1: suicide attempt. She gets put I get told that she's 392 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:32,640 Speaker 1: going away for a little while, but she actually gets 393 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 1: put in a state run facility for a week. It's 394 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 1: not like we had money or health insurance. This was 395 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:40,440 Speaker 1: literally the state was just like, all right, we need 396 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:45,639 Speaker 1: to put this person somewhere else. She gets medication, which 397 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:47,680 Speaker 1: we think is going to be a good thing. Instead 398 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,639 Speaker 1: at one point, neither of my parents' drink, but I 399 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 1: find her with an empty bottle of pills and an 400 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 1: empty bottle of vodka. Now with therapy, I have a 401 00:22:57,080 --> 00:22:59,640 Speaker 1: lot of different ways to look at it, but there's 402 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 1: one way looking at where I have a lot of 403 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 1: empathy for her and not do try to hold that. 404 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 1: But it's also really hard looking back and recognizing that 405 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:07,920 Speaker 1: the person that was supposed to take care of you 406 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:12,440 Speaker 1: was not able to take care of themselves. And it's 407 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:14,199 Speaker 1: hard to know where to put that anger. If you 408 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:16,480 Speaker 1: put it on the situation, if you put it on 409 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 1: her parents being so unforgiving or unempathetic, And I just 410 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:24,959 Speaker 1: remember being very confused. 411 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 2: Right, because it has to go somewhere, right. 412 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, it starts almost low level, but exactly what you're saying, 413 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 1: where you know, this question of where do I put 414 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 1: this anger? And I don't even know how to put 415 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 1: words to it, and so it's very easy to just 416 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:43,440 Speaker 1: put it on oneself. And it starts very low level risk. 417 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 1: Taking my school again, it's a very rural part of 418 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 1: north central Massachusetts. So what you have is a regional school. 419 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:52,680 Speaker 1: It's not just a regional high school. It's a regional 420 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 1: high school in middle school. Because there's just aren't enough 421 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 1: kids in the area. So these four towns poured into 422 00:23:57,560 --> 00:23:59,719 Speaker 1: this place. So at the age of twelve, I'm all 423 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 1: of a sudden in the same building with kid two eighteen, 424 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 1: and of course you're not supposed to go down that hallway, 425 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 1: but who cares. I immediately make friends with a lot 426 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 1: of older kids. By the age of twelve, I'm drinking. 427 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:15,400 Speaker 1: I'm doing drugs, and you know, it's weed was constant. 428 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 1: But it wasn't just weed. It was mushrooms, it was acid, 429 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 1: it was anything we could get our hands on. And 430 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:26,160 Speaker 1: I loved it, almost like books. It was this escape 431 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 1: and I didn't have the words for it back then. 432 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:31,200 Speaker 1: But it's very clear that I wanted to hurt myself 433 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 1: in certain ways. I wanted to be self destructive. All 434 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:36,199 Speaker 1: of a sudden, I was funnier, all of a sudden, 435 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 1: I was quicker, all of a sudden, I was more 436 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 1: open to talking instead of really curling into myself. So 437 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 1: it was something I enjoyed as well. But there were 438 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,639 Speaker 1: also Yeah, very early on, there was that is I 439 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 1: would argue. Around the age of twelve is when I 440 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:55,400 Speaker 1: start to grapple with the fact that I it's such 441 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 1: a hard thing for me even say still, but I 442 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 1: might want to die. The idea of not being around 443 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 1: sometimes sounds not just pretty but very good. I mean, 444 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 1: what's interesting is I feel almost embarrassed to say it 445 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 1: because it's so childlike. But again, I was a child. 446 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 1: I had a lot of knives. At one point, I 447 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 1: put them all in a board and I would take 448 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 1: it under my bed, out from under my bed. I 449 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:23,119 Speaker 1: kept it under my bed. I'd take it out from 450 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 1: under my bed. I'd be like, well, if I roll 451 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 1: out of bed, I'll fall my knives and I'll die. 452 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 1: So dramatic, but so much like I just didn't know 453 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,840 Speaker 1: what to do. I would drink until blackout, and I 454 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 1: hope that I didn't wake up the drinking and driving 455 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:40,640 Speaker 1: that was happening in that area even before I had 456 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,919 Speaker 1: a license, and it wasn't happening just in this bubble. 457 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 1: Because this happened the area that I lived in, Teenagers 458 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,960 Speaker 1: died from drinking and driving accidents all the time. I 459 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:55,119 Speaker 1: would know people, I guess. In one way, that's me 460 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:57,719 Speaker 1: saying it was almost something I was hopeful for. Another 461 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,920 Speaker 1: way to me saying this is something I wasn't the 462 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:02,919 Speaker 1: only kid in the area that I was having these issues. 463 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, No, it's kind of it's a perfect storm in 464 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:10,360 Speaker 2: an area like that because kids are driving at really 465 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 2: young ages and before they have licenses. Also, the driving 466 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:17,960 Speaker 2: age is younger, and there's tremendous boredom, and there's also weapons. 467 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,880 Speaker 2: I mean, it's, you know what a mess. But there's 468 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:22,879 Speaker 2: this other aspect of it too, which is and it 469 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 2: makes so much sense emotionally. But you have all of 470 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 2: this body shame, you know, you have this body image shame, 471 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,479 Speaker 2: and you right, we're all in our own personal hells, 472 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:35,680 Speaker 2: you know when it comes to body shame. But I 473 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:41,359 Speaker 2: think that that feeling is so sort of fundamental in 474 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:45,119 Speaker 2: terms of self loathing, Like what else could possibly be 475 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:49,920 Speaker 2: as absolutely clear as loathing what you see in the mirror, 476 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 2: you know, when it comes to self loathing. 477 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, and also just about taking up space. My mother 478 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:01,639 Speaker 1: had been bigger when she was younger, and it was 479 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,439 Speaker 1: yet another thing that her mother was hyper critical of, 480 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 1: and I started to inherit that too. We got out 481 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:12,959 Speaker 1: to this house, I had so much time alone, and 482 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:14,880 Speaker 1: now I can name it. Now I know what it is. 483 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 1: I was anxious. I was crawling out of my skin 484 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,120 Speaker 1: with anxiety. And so I turned, of course, like we're 485 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:23,440 Speaker 1: talking about to drugs, to alcohol, but also to eat. 486 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:28,400 Speaker 1: I would pour sugar on top of bowls of cheerios 487 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: and just scarf them down. I became an anxious eater. 488 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 1: And we're also, like we were just talking about you 489 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,240 Speaker 1: set a perfect store in the area. We're talking about 490 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 1: the lowest income county and all of Massachusetts, and we're 491 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,520 Speaker 1: talking about a rural area where a lot of the 492 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 1: food is not healthy. It's just a lot of starches 493 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 1: and a lot of let's just buy the cheapest thing 494 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,120 Speaker 1: that we can afford, and I hope that gets us through. 495 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:56,720 Speaker 1: And so I started to grow. But again, there was 496 00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:00,119 Speaker 1: already so much resentment for myself, and now that they're 497 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,919 Speaker 1: there was more of me. I wanted to be small, 498 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 1: I wanted to disappear. I was thinking that I didn't 499 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:10,680 Speaker 1: maybe want to exist, so to actually be this bigger body. 500 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:13,960 Speaker 1: I started to resent myself for it so so much, 501 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:16,160 Speaker 1: not even knowing that I was doing the exact same 502 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,119 Speaker 1: thing that my mother had done years and years before. 503 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,240 Speaker 1: And of course that was part of her anxiety too, 504 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,240 Speaker 1: is she had spent her whole life getting away from 505 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,959 Speaker 1: this area, and I think she felt like such a 506 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: such a tremendous sadness about finding herself back there and 507 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:34,359 Speaker 1: watching me be a child in that same. 508 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:36,639 Speaker 2: Area, which of course never gets spoken about. 509 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 1: No, that's I mean, that's so much of this comes 510 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 1: down to people not communicating with one another. 511 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 2: Will be back in a moment with more family secrets. 512 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 2: When New Year's Eve of nineteen ninety nine comes along, 513 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 2: many of us are scared the world as we know 514 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:06,440 Speaker 2: it might end at midnight when we enter as the 515 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 2: new Millennium. But not Isaac and his friends. They're not scared. 516 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 2: They're psyched. 517 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 1: We were excited. Yeah, Clean Slate, and we couldn't wait 518 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:20,120 Speaker 1: for it, because why not restart look at all the 519 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 1: things that were going wrong. And one of the movies 520 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:25,720 Speaker 1: that were very drawn to, which was that same kind 521 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 1: of time period, was Fight Club, and it was this 522 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 1: idea and let's we don't even talk about it, like 523 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 1: the surprise surprise, A bunch of boys got together and 524 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:35,720 Speaker 1: beat each other up and have us quite a bit. 525 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:38,760 Speaker 1: But what we really loved about that film we probably 526 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 1: couldn't have articulated at the time, was it ends with 527 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 1: this wiping of the debt, this idea that maybe society 528 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 1: could restart. And we thought that would be tremendous, because 529 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 1: when you're on the bottom, that's what you're always hoping for, 530 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 1: a reshuffling. You want to see if you can get 531 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:03,960 Speaker 1: delta better hand This hand sucks. What happens even let's 532 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 1: say all these other these things that we've gotten used to, 533 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:08,400 Speaker 1: but we were used to it that they weren't helping us. 534 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 1: What if they got wiped away. 535 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 2: In the midst of this teenage nihilism, something extraordinary happens. 536 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,400 Speaker 2: Isaac gets into trouble at school for hitting another kid 537 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,280 Speaker 2: in the face with a math book, and he's suspended, 538 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 2: but he can't stay home alone, so he rides out 539 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 2: his suspension in the school library. He starts helping out 540 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 2: the librarians and they notice that he's suffering. They step 541 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,920 Speaker 2: in and try to help. They tell him about a 542 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:40,120 Speaker 2: nearby boarding school that sometimes has scholarships and financial aid 543 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 2: available for local kids. Isaac applies and sure enough, he 544 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 2: gets a free ride. 545 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 1: There was many people at the school who kind of 546 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 1: rallied around me and could tell maybe things were not 547 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 1: great at home, because at that point my parents were 548 00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 1: constantly fighting. The violence had spread. My mother and I 549 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 1: had been in altercations. My father and I had been 550 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 1: in altercations. What had been this simmering resentment and attacks 551 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,160 Speaker 1: and there have been a lot of yelling and violence 552 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 1: in the household. But then we started getting physical with 553 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:18,120 Speaker 1: each other. It wasn't just suicide attempts, it was violence. 554 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 1: I was lucky enough to have some people at this 555 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,040 Speaker 1: school take notice to know that that school was not 556 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 1: going to be able to help me enough, and they 557 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 1: encouraged me to apply to a boarding school that was 558 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 1: very nearby. And I think a lot of the people 559 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 1: took notice and to recognize that because they maybe had 560 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 1: stories like that themselves. And I just think that's what 561 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:41,840 Speaker 1: happened in that moment. I had certain teachers, librarians, secretaries, 562 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,800 Speaker 1: people took notice that I was hurting, and they helped 563 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:48,000 Speaker 1: me make this transition into a boarding school. I was 564 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 1: no longer at my house and things changed. 565 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 2: So would you describe that as another sort of full 566 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 2: crumb moment, like another before and after a moment? Was 567 00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:58,400 Speaker 2: that a big shift? 568 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 1: One hundred percent for moment? I said, with this one especially, 569 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 1: it's one of those things where you're like, and now 570 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 1: everything will be fixed. And part of life, as I 571 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:12,680 Speaker 1: know you know, is you just recognize weight. It's never fixed, 572 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:16,440 Speaker 1: it's never perfect. Now things are different, things have shifted, 573 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 1: and you can walk towards the light, but it doesn't 574 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 1: mean all of a sudden everything is wrapped up in 575 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 1: a bow. 576 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,680 Speaker 2: Well, and it also means you know, wherever you go, 577 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:29,720 Speaker 2: there you are. You're still you in those new circumstances. 578 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 1: You know, that's exactly right. 579 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 2: Maybe a bit bolstered, maybe with some more opportunities and 580 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 2: more light in the distance, but you're still you. 581 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:40,120 Speaker 1: That's right. 582 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,440 Speaker 2: After boarding school, Isaac doesn't plan on going to college, 583 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 2: but he gets a scholarship and to college he goes, 584 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 2: but the scholarship money is just for tuition. Of course, 585 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 2: he needs spending money too. He gets a job as 586 00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 2: soon as he gets on campus, painting houses in New Hampshire. 587 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 2: When he turns twenty three, he moves across the country 588 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:06,560 Speaker 2: with some friends to San Francisco. He doesn't go back 589 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 2: home for the first Thanksgiving or Christmas. Then he doesn't 590 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 2: go back at all. He's estranged from his parents for 591 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 2: a decade. He moves through life, taking one step forward, 592 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 2: two steps back. He's drawn to the bar scene. He 593 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 2: buys a motorcycle. Bars and motorcycles can be a dangerous combination, 594 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,240 Speaker 2: so Isaac sets up rules for himself. He's not going 595 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 2: to drink and ride this bike. Then he's not going 596 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:37,240 Speaker 2: to ride it very far. Then only one drink if 597 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:40,720 Speaker 2: he's going to ride it. But one morning, Isaac wakes 598 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 2: up in his apartment wearing all his clothes. He's not hurt, 599 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 2: as far as he can tell, but he has no 600 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 2: recollection of how or when he got home from the 601 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 2: night before. It turned out that he had ridden to 602 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 2: Santa Cruz seventy miles away, drank himself into a blackout, 603 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:02,400 Speaker 2: drove all the way home parked perfectly, headed upstairs and 604 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:06,239 Speaker 2: fell asleep without any memory of this. He clocks it 605 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,319 Speaker 2: as the moment he should stop drinking, but it's not 606 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:14,920 Speaker 2: and he doesn't. Years later, when Isaac seeks therapy, is 607 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:19,120 Speaker 2: therapist helps him understand and unpack this rhythm he's repeatedly 608 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 2: found himself in one step forward, two steps back after 609 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:28,319 Speaker 2: a sessional, your therapist going to a barn in her 610 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:31,759 Speaker 2: neighborhood and having a drink. And when you say to 611 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,960 Speaker 2: your therapist, this is what I do, she asks you 612 00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:38,160 Speaker 2: why it's such a great question. 613 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:41,359 Speaker 1: Well, I think you absolutely said it as no matter 614 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:44,080 Speaker 1: where I go, there I am and we can keep 615 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:46,160 Speaker 1: trying to grow. And that is what one step forward, 616 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:49,160 Speaker 1: two steps back is all about. Is that is how 617 00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:51,839 Speaker 1: it gets done, just like you said, because it's better 618 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:55,520 Speaker 1: than just seven steps back. You have to walk a 619 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 1: little forward, slide a little back, walk a little forward, 620 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,279 Speaker 1: slide a little back. And for me, it was my 621 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:03,759 Speaker 1: therapist that pointed it out to me. That came to 622 00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:06,360 Speaker 1: therapy very late in life, and I'm still trying to 623 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:08,640 Speaker 1: figure it out because I'm only three years into therapy. 624 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:12,360 Speaker 1: But she was the one that said, do you notice 625 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:14,680 Speaker 1: that your home, a place you should have felt safe, 626 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:17,600 Speaker 1: was not safe. Do you notice that the church, a 627 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:20,319 Speaker 1: place you're supposed to feel safe, a biker bar, the 628 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,680 Speaker 1: work you did at the armory, these other places where 629 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 1: most people would say, oh well, you know, even the 630 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 1: Catholic work or homeless shelter, that's not a safe place 631 00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:31,400 Speaker 1: for a child. And that's where you felt the most loved. 632 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:33,560 Speaker 1: That's where you felt the most safe. And it was 633 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:35,920 Speaker 1: my therapist that pointed that out to me. It was 634 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,880 Speaker 1: my therapist that said, look, you were seeking out danger. 635 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 1: You went to work with this group in Southeast Asia 636 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:46,840 Speaker 1: who smuggled medical supplies because you were looking for something 637 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:49,839 Speaker 1: to punish yourself with. But what you found in those 638 00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:53,000 Speaker 1: places was real community and real love and real tenderness. 639 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:55,239 Speaker 1: And the places where you're supposed to feel the most 640 00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:59,319 Speaker 1: safe is where you, not to use a strong word, 641 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:00,600 Speaker 1: but where you were portrayed. 642 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,719 Speaker 2: Therapy not only enables Isaac to confront his past, but 643 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:11,480 Speaker 2: it also empowers him to write about it. And writing 644 00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:15,439 Speaker 2: his stories allows Isaac to have the conversations he's never 645 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,839 Speaker 2: had with his parents. His therapist said to him, all 646 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 2: this could have been a conversation. Everything you write about 647 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,359 Speaker 2: could have been a conversation, but you clearly didn't know 648 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,920 Speaker 2: how to talk to one another. When his book comes out, 649 00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:31,920 Speaker 2: his mom reads it in one night. She writes him 650 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 2: a note the next day. In the note, she writes, 651 00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:38,239 Speaker 2: I am so sorry. I had no idea you were 652 00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:39,120 Speaker 2: carrying this. 653 00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:44,799 Speaker 1: And that, to me, is the biggest secret in all 654 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:47,680 Speaker 1: of this. You can say that maybe she had rose 655 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:50,000 Speaker 1: colored glasses on to not see some of the mistakes 656 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:52,680 Speaker 1: I was making. You can obviously argue that if a 657 00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,920 Speaker 1: kid puts an entire country between you and the family 658 00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:59,160 Speaker 1: and does to come back for ten years, there's obviously 659 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:02,160 Speaker 1: some issues. I think she wasn't a fool. She was 660 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:05,440 Speaker 1: aware that something was going on, but she didn't really 661 00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:09,239 Speaker 1: understand how much of what happened in those years I 662 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:12,000 Speaker 1: was still carrying with me and I had a respect 663 00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:13,600 Speaker 1: for her. She wrote a lot of other stuff that 664 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:15,839 Speaker 1: I can't go over every single thing of it, But 665 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:18,480 Speaker 1: what became clear to me was that when I would 666 00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:21,080 Speaker 1: see her, I always tried to put on a smiling face. 667 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:25,280 Speaker 1: As we started this new relationship. Since I've moved back, 668 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:28,600 Speaker 1: since we're no longer strange, I was the one that 669 00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:30,799 Speaker 1: wanted to be like it's fine, I forgive you. It's 670 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:33,200 Speaker 1: we're good. We're good, We're good. I was the one 671 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 1: that was never interested in getting into it or talking 672 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:38,360 Speaker 1: about it. So what this book has done is it 673 00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:42,719 Speaker 1: started some of the best conversations I've ever had with 674 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:46,759 Speaker 1: my mother. My father's hilarious, he had his own he 675 00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:51,000 Speaker 1: wrote his home letters about it, et cetera. But also, again, 676 00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:53,560 Speaker 1: just want to say, I can't share any of that. Really, 677 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:56,200 Speaker 1: it'sot to know that, he said, and we'll see a thanksgiving, 678 00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:59,520 Speaker 1: which is his way of saying, Hey, this is hard, 679 00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:02,479 Speaker 1: this is tough, but you're still here, You're still part 680 00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:05,799 Speaker 1: of the family. But that was the biggest secret I 681 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:08,279 Speaker 1: never shared with them. I was never able to I 682 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,400 Speaker 1: was never able to communicate to them how hurt I was. 683 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:16,480 Speaker 1: My therapist literally was like you. Instead of talking to them, 684 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,359 Speaker 1: decided to figure out how to write a book and 685 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:23,680 Speaker 1: then wrote about it in hopes that they might see 686 00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:25,200 Speaker 1: you for the hurt kid that you are. 687 00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:29,600 Speaker 2: So where does forgiveness reside in all this? 688 00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:33,000 Speaker 1: For you? That is the lie that I told myself 689 00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:35,960 Speaker 1: for a long time. The thing that I said was 690 00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:39,080 Speaker 1: as I got a little older, not as old as 691 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:40,960 Speaker 1: I am now, but as I got a little older, 692 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:44,560 Speaker 1: I recognized that they too had been dealt a hard hand. 693 00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:46,719 Speaker 1: And who knows, if I'd written this book when I 694 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,200 Speaker 1: was twenty five, it would have just been my parents 695 00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:51,480 Speaker 1: are the worst people that ever lived. I had the 696 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:55,239 Speaker 1: hardest childhood. It would have been so angry. At thirty five, 697 00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:58,520 Speaker 1: I'm able to be empathetic to them, I'm able to 698 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:02,600 Speaker 1: see how they also were struggling. I was so quick 699 00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:06,799 Speaker 1: to try and forgive because I was raised Catholic, so 700 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,000 Speaker 1: I had all this anger, but I didn't want to 701 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:11,239 Speaker 1: accept it. I didn't want to acknowledge it. I didn't 702 00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:13,760 Speaker 1: want to sit with it. I just wanted to say, Okay, 703 00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:15,920 Speaker 1: that was all bad, But I forgive my parents. Look, 704 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:18,279 Speaker 1: I went to a boarding school. I got a scholarship 705 00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:20,840 Speaker 1: to go there. I got a scholarship to go to college. 706 00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:23,840 Speaker 1: I'm living a kind of normal life. Now, It'll be okay. 707 00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:25,880 Speaker 1: I don't need to worry about that too much. I 708 00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:27,480 Speaker 1: don't need to be too hard on them for that. 709 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:31,080 Speaker 1: And that's the lie I told myself for a very 710 00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:34,040 Speaker 1: long time, is that forgiveness is something you can just choose. 711 00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:38,520 Speaker 1: Forgiveness for me now, when I see it as what 712 00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:42,400 Speaker 1: I recognize it as. What true forgiveness is is you 713 00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,400 Speaker 1: need to look at your life. You need to decide 714 00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:47,759 Speaker 1: who you want to keep in it and who you don't. 715 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:50,200 Speaker 1: And it's okay, it's okay to cut people out. I 716 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:52,440 Speaker 1: want to be very clear. This book is a story 717 00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:55,080 Speaker 1: about how my family blew apart, but it's also how 718 00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:57,360 Speaker 1: my family came back together. But that doesn't have to 719 00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,120 Speaker 1: be everybody's story. If you have somebody that hurts you 720 00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:01,800 Speaker 1: and you want to cut them out of your life, 721 00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:07,359 Speaker 1: that's okay. But for me, I had been saying I'd 722 00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:11,480 Speaker 1: forgiven them for so long. I realized I had to 723 00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:12,799 Speaker 1: look at my life. Who do I want to keep 724 00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,880 Speaker 1: in it? I realized because of my nieces and nephews, 725 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:19,160 Speaker 1: because of my siblings, because of myself, I can admit 726 00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:22,640 Speaker 1: that I want this family unit to be a unit again. 727 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:25,600 Speaker 1: And that was going to take real forgiveness. And what 728 00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:28,800 Speaker 1: real forgiveness is is you actually look at the things 729 00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:33,480 Speaker 1: and you actually acknowledge what happened, and you talk about them, 730 00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:37,680 Speaker 1: and the person maybe doesn't just say everything you want 731 00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:39,680 Speaker 1: to hear. They're going to have their own views on it, 732 00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:42,759 Speaker 1: but you can grapple with it, and that's how you 733 00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:46,920 Speaker 1: can make steps forward together. That is where real forgiveness 734 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:49,040 Speaker 1: comes from. When I was a kid, I just had 735 00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:51,880 Speaker 1: this concept of it from the church. You pray, you 736 00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:57,040 Speaker 1: go to confession, you can confess your forgiven acknowledging it 737 00:40:57,120 --> 00:40:59,919 Speaker 1: is just the first step. You really got to work 738 00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,680 Speaker 1: with people and talk with people and hope, you know, 739 00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:05,239 Speaker 1: because again I'm not some angel. I've also heard other 740 00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:09,360 Speaker 1: people hope that they can find it within themselves to 741 00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:13,840 Speaker 1: forgive you. And so that's the aspect of all this 742 00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:16,759 Speaker 1: that I'm still in with my parents. But what's so 743 00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:20,640 Speaker 1: incredible to me is that they're willing to have those conversations, 744 00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:23,840 Speaker 1: and in a way, I can feel the relief. We 745 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:28,399 Speaker 1: talk more than we've ever talked. I visit them more 746 00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:31,000 Speaker 1: than I've ever visited even after we were strange and 747 00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:33,279 Speaker 1: I came back. I'm visiting them more now than I 748 00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:37,680 Speaker 1: ever had before. And they could have told me to 749 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:41,200 Speaker 1: take a hike, but instead they've embraced me more than 750 00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:44,440 Speaker 1: ever before, and that's been a really incredible experience. 751 00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:01,680 Speaker 2: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. Molly Zacour is 752 00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:04,880 Speaker 2: the story editor and Dylan Fagan is the executive producer. 753 00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:08,160 Speaker 2: If you have a family secret you'd like to share, 754 00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:10,960 Speaker 2: please leave us a voicemail and your story could appear 755 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:14,399 Speaker 2: on an upcoming episode. Our number is one eight eight 756 00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:18,560 Speaker 2: eight Secret zero. That's the number zero. You can also 757 00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:23,560 Speaker 2: find me on Instagram at Danny Ryder. And if you'd 758 00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:26,040 Speaker 2: like to know more about the story that inspired this podcast, 759 00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:28,319 Speaker 2: check out my memoir Inheritance. 760 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:50,239 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 761 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:52,400 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.