1 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:05,800 Speaker 1: You're listening to American Shadows, a production of I Heart 2 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:19,639 Speaker 1: Radio and Grim and Mild from Aaron Manky. Mrs Laughlin 3 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:21,919 Speaker 1: Smith was heading to bed on the night of March 4 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:25,959 Speaker 1: nine when she heard some sort of skirmish in the 5 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 1: apartment next door. Her neighbor, mister Fink, had no family 6 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:33,839 Speaker 1: and kept to himself. As an older man living alone, 7 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 1: he often expressed worry over his safety, a concern everyone 8 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:42,239 Speaker 1: living in their low income housing shared. Like many of 9 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:44,839 Speaker 1: the others there, he was an immigrant, having come from 10 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 1: Poland several years earlier. A quiet and reliable, Fink operated 11 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 1: the local laundromat. He always paid on time, never caused trouble, 12 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: and didn't have visitors, which made the noise, especially late 13 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 1: at night, highly unusual. Smith listened intently. To her knowledge, 14 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 1: her neighbor always locked his door even when he was 15 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:09,960 Speaker 1: home alone, and never opened the windows. When the scuffle 16 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: stopped and the gunshots began, she called the police, certain 17 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:18,040 Speaker 1: that someone had broken into his apartment. Patrolman capt'n Maine 18 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:21,120 Speaker 1: responded to the call at ten thirty that night. No 19 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:24,039 Speaker 1: one answered. When he knocked and called out. He tried 20 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: the door and found it locked, and the windows were 21 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 1: all shut tight. Even if they had been unlocked, the 22 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:33,039 Speaker 1: openings were far too small for any adult to pass through. 23 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: Cap'n Bane began to suspect that Fink may have killed himself, 24 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 1: and by this time the neighbors had come out to 25 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:43,759 Speaker 1: see what was happening. One noticed the transom window above 26 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: the front door had been broken. Like the other windows, 27 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: the transom was too small for an adult to squeeze through. 28 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: Too small for adults, maybe, but not for one of 29 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 1: the neighborhood's children. A couple of men hoisted a boy 30 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 1: up and he climbed through. He quickly ound the key 31 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: on a hook near the door and let Paton Maine 32 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 1: and the two men inside. In the next room, they 33 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:11,079 Speaker 1: made the grizzly discovery Fink had been shot three times 34 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 1: at close range. One of the men mentioned suicide, and 35 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:19,080 Speaker 1: though that had been Officer Captain Baine's first thought, he 36 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 1: noticed a glaring problem. He didn't see a gun. He 37 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:26,359 Speaker 1: also noticed that the iron sitting on the ironing board 38 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: was on, but apparently hadn't been on long enough to 39 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:34,080 Speaker 1: scorch the shirt Fink had been ironing. Equally unusual was 40 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 1: that one of the shots had been through Fink's wrist. 41 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 1: More patrolmen and detectives were summoned, and although they conducted 42 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:44,920 Speaker 1: a thorough search, no one found a gun. The only 43 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 1: fingerprints in the apartment belonged to Fink. Nothing had been 44 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: taken either, money in a pocket watch satin plain sight. 45 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 1: Whoever killed him hadn't done so as part of a robbery. 46 00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: They thought that perhaps a local gang had tried to 47 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 1: extort a small business owner, a common practice at the time, 48 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 1: but the neighbors couldn't provide any details to solidify their theory. 49 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 1: In the end, they were left with a dead body, 50 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 1: no motive, no suspects, no witnesses, and no obvious way 51 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 1: in or out of the lock department. Armchair criminologists and 52 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 1: sluts have been trying to solve this locked room mystery 53 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 1: ever since. After all, appearances and perceptions are often deceiving. 54 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 1: I'm Lauren Vogelbon. Welcome to American Shadows. The weather in 55 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 1: New York City was mild in the spring. Of people 56 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 1: packed the Coney Island boardwalk, and the well off who 57 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: hadn't been hit during the Great Depression sunbathed on Long 58 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 1: Island speeches. After a long winter summer seemed like it 59 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 1: was just around the corner. Though things were still tight 60 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 1: and many families were being in debt, the people took 61 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 1: time first roll outside, a day in the park, or 62 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 1: other free activities. By April, baseball was in full swing. 63 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:12,119 Speaker 1: A young player named Babe Ruth made an impressive first 64 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: appearance with a home run and a single in the 65 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 1: Boston braves Ford to win over the New York Giants. 66 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:21,600 Speaker 1: On the radio, your Hit Parade debuted. Think of it 67 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 1: like a billboard top. Forty listeners everywhere sang along with 68 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:30,159 Speaker 1: Bing Crosby. Frederick Gross couldn't afford a trip to the 69 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 1: beach or a baseball game, but he did enjoy sitting 70 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: on the front step of the housing project where he lived, 71 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:38,919 Speaker 1: listening to music coming from the open windows, and he 72 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:43,040 Speaker 1: especially liked talking with his neighbors as their kids played nearby. 73 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 1: Though he had lost part of his leg in an 74 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 1: auto accident and wore a prosthesis, Frederick never complained, Always 75 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:52,920 Speaker 1: pleasant and cheerful. His neighbors had grown fond of him 76 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 1: ever since he and his wife, Katherine had moved there. 77 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 1: In he had found work as a bookkeeper at an 78 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:03,720 Speaker 1: importing firm. Katherine had been a telephone operator back in Philadelphia, 79 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: but now took care of the children Freddie Junior, Catherine Junior, Frances, Leo, 80 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 1: and Barbara. Frederick's mother in law, Olga, also lived with 81 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 1: them in the cramped apartment. With so many mouths to feed, 82 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 1: things were more than tight for the family. During the Depression, 83 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:23,479 Speaker 1: the importing firm Frederick worked for had reduced his salary 84 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 1: from thirty five dollars a week to just twenty. The 85 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 1: money wasn't enough to keep him and his wife well 86 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:32,919 Speaker 1: fed and sheltered, much less five children and another adult. 87 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:36,479 Speaker 1: Even before the Depression, Frederick's income was barely enough for 88 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:41,039 Speaker 1: the basics. Now, with his pain nearly halved, that sunk 89 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:44,359 Speaker 1: far below the poverty line. They had no hot water, 90 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:48,360 Speaker 1: no light, and no heat. Like many families during the depression, 91 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: they were sinking in debt that would be hard, if 92 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 1: not impossible, to pay off. And then Catherine announced she 93 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:59,280 Speaker 1: was pregnant with their sixth child. It meant another mouth 94 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 1: to feed, much less all the doctor's bills that incur 95 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 1: The situation would have pushed many people beyond the breaking point, 96 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:10,160 Speaker 1: but not Frederick. As poor as they were, he remained 97 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 1: oddly happy. And always had a smile and a kind 98 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: word give. The neighbors noticed that he wasn't like the 99 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 1: rest of his family. They were less cheerful and often rowdy. 100 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: Frederick seemed more kind hearted and gentle. The neighbors marveled 101 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:29,799 Speaker 1: at his eternal optimism. At the firm, his personality remained 102 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 1: equally positive. His coworkers could rely on Frederick. He was 103 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:36,919 Speaker 1: hard working and pleasant. Everyone knew him and he was 104 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 1: well liked. Every day Frederick went to work, and each 105 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 1: week he brought home his easily paycheck without complaint. Twenty 106 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 1: dollars didn't stretch far, and the family often went without 107 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:52,840 Speaker 1: much food. The kids were thin, too thin. They all 108 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 1: were really On one particularly sunny day, Frederick arrived home 109 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:02,480 Speaker 1: toward that nine year old Freddie isn't well. Kids often 110 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 1: picked up a bug here or there, and the couple 111 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:08,280 Speaker 1: figured it was nothing to be concerned over. Frederick lovingly 112 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 1: scooped his son up into his arms and tucked him 113 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 1: into bed to recover. Freddie didn't recover is expected, though, 114 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 1: and the next day he was worse, much worse. He 115 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 1: seemed thinner, frailer, His eyes appeared dull and listless, his 116 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 1: hair began to fall out in clumps. Frederick took a 117 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 1: fitful nap in a chair next to his son's bed. 118 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 1: He awoke hours later to Freddie's desperate gasps for air. 119 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 1: By the time the doctor arrived, little Freddie was dead. 120 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 1: After a thorough examination, the doctor concluded he had died 121 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 1: from bronchial pneumonia. Just days later, while families enjoyed picnics 122 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 1: and parks, and Frederick and his family attended Freddie's funeral 123 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 1: at Saint John Cemetery in Queen's the next day. The 124 00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 1: birds still sang and the sun still shined, but the 125 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 1: family stayed inside. Morning. They barely had time to begin 126 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 1: the grieving process, though, because that's when three year old 127 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: Leo fell ill. Frederick kept a close eye on Leo. 128 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 1: He showed the same symptoms as his older brother, and 129 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 1: the couple determined had caught whatever Freddie had had. It 130 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 1: would be hard not to inside their shoe box apartment. 131 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 1: After a fit of convulsions, Leo died a couple of 132 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 1: days later. Again, a doctor had been summoned, but arrived 133 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 1: too late, and just like before, because of death was 134 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:43,439 Speaker 1: listed as bronch field pneumonia and reported to the Department 135 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 1: of Health. Catherine Sr. Fell ill next, though she at 136 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 1: first thought it was just morning sickness, she became so 137 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:53,840 Speaker 1: ill that the care of the household and children fell 138 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 1: on Olga and Frederick. Considering the deaths of their two 139 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: children and her pregnancy, she went straight to the hospital. 140 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 1: It seemed that whatever had killed Freddie and Leo was 141 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 1: now spreading through the rest of the household. There wasn't 142 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 1: anywhere to send the remaining children, and quarantining in such 143 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 1: a tiny space was impossible. All they could do was 144 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: hope for the best. By now, I'm sure you're wondering 145 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 1: whether something wasn't right. I'm sure illness can spread unpredictably, 146 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 1: But why wasn't the whole family sick or any of 147 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 1: the neighbors. Why had the few cases been so severe? 148 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: Was foul play at hand? Here's a wrench. The doctors 149 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 1: diagnosed Katherine with encephalitis, not bronchial pneumonia. Unlike Freddie and Leo, 150 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:45,680 Speaker 1: she hadn't lost her hair either. Doctors concluded that the 151 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 1: two boys might have died from encephalitis instead of pneumonia. 152 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 1: Encephalitis is an infection that pauses inflammation of the brain 153 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 1: and can share similar symptoms with the flu. While such 154 00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 1: infections are serious, they aren't always fatal if caught in time. 155 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 1: While doctors worked to stabilize Mrs Gross, seven year old 156 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 1: Katherine Jr. Five year old Frank, and eighteen month old 157 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:14,559 Speaker 1: Barbara fell ill, only Olga and Frederick remained well. Olga's 158 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:17,959 Speaker 1: other daughter came over to cook for the family. Unable 159 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 1: to afford to sit her, she brought over her own 160 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 1: children while attending to her sisters. Oddly, though all the 161 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 1: children interacted with one another, hers stayed healthy. Frederick's children 162 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 1: grew steadily worse. They followed the same pattern their siblings 163 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: had fever, convulsions, and hair loss. Months earlier, Katherine Sr. 164 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:41,199 Speaker 1: Had proudly shown off eighteen month old Barbara's full head 165 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: of gorgeous brown curls. Now the toddler had become completely bald. 166 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 1: By the month's end, Katherine Junior and little Barbara both died. 167 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 1: Doctors believed that had encephalitis like their mother. The couple 168 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 1: had lost four children in a matter of weeks. Then 169 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 1: Catherine Senior died in the hospital. Once a family of eight, 170 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:07,959 Speaker 1: only three remained, Frederick, Olga and five year old Frank. 171 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 1: A day later, Frank collapsed and had to be rushed 172 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 1: to the hospital, and doctors thought he had chicken pox. 173 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 1: Not a day later, Olga joined him with similar symptoms, 174 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 1: and that left just Frederick in the apartment. Neighbors commented 175 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: that things couldn't get much worse for him, but they 176 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 1: were wrong. As you might imagine, the doctors had grown 177 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 1: rather suspicious of Frederick had remained completely healthy while everyone 178 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 1: else got sick or died. Tissue samples from two of 179 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:44,960 Speaker 1: the deceased children were examined. Doctor Edward Gall had recently 180 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 1: acquired a spectroscope, an instrument that can identify the chemical 181 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 1: makeup of a sample by precisely measuring the wavelengths or 182 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 1: colors of light given off when the sample is heated. 183 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 1: Different elements give off different colors. In the end, Gall 184 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:03,320 Speaker 1: determined that the family had been poisoned. I'm sure that's 185 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 1: not exactly shocking news. Poison was easy to come by. 186 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 1: It was practically everywhere. Aside from the barbiturous people took 187 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:14,439 Speaker 1: the handle stress and the poison like alcohol in circulation 188 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:18,680 Speaker 1: of poisons could be found in many household products. Though 189 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:21,679 Speaker 1: the consumer safety organization that would become The FDA had 190 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 1: been around for nineteen years. At that point, it lacked 191 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 1: meaningful authority in corporate liability was practically non existent, allowing 192 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 1: dubious materials and anything from cleaners to cosmetics. Wallpaper contained arsenic. 193 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:39,080 Speaker 1: Cyanide was used in pest control, killing more than just 194 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 1: mice and insects. It would have been easy for Frederick 195 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 1: to obtain enough of either to kill his family. The 196 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 1: police arrested Frederick on suspicion of murdering his wife and 197 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:52,839 Speaker 1: four children. He denied it, insistent he wouldn't have heard 198 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 1: any of his family, much less poison them. Authorities remained 199 00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 1: unconvinced and escorted him to the waiting patrol car. Neighbors 200 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: watched and stunned silence. Arsenic was the easiest poison to 201 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 1: come by and the most commonly used in poison related murders. 202 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:13,680 Speaker 1: There was a problem, though, After more tests, Dr gall 203 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 1: noted something unusual, the tell tale green flash of thallium. 204 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:22,200 Speaker 1: The true it was a poison, and one of the 205 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:25,720 Speaker 1: deadliest at that but it wasn't easy to come by 206 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 1: and was more costly than arsenic or cyanide. That left 207 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 1: one question, how could a poor bookkeeper afford such an 208 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:44,200 Speaker 1: exotic poison. The New York Times headline became the talk 209 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 1: of the town. Five killed by rare poison. The district 210 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 1: attorney ordered two of the deceased children exhumed. Tissue samples 211 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:56,440 Speaker 1: were sent to Dr. Gall He ran the tests and 212 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 1: found the same tell tale green flash with the spectroscope. 213 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 1: It left little doubt that they had died of thallium poisoning. 214 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 1: Most people had never heard of thallium, much less knew 215 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 1: how to use it or where to get it. The 216 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:13,559 Speaker 1: substance is so deadly that even touching it is dangerous. 217 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 1: The victims experienced nerve damage, hair loss, and a host 218 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 1: of symptoms suggestive of various diseases and conditions. In some places, 219 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 1: it's been used as rat poison and ant bait. Before 220 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 1: its toxicity to humans became widely known, it had been 221 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 1: used for hair removal. Odorless, colorless, and tasteless, thallium was 222 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 1: called the poisoner's poison for its slow acting and painful 223 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 1: manner of death. French chemist Claude August Lammy had been 224 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: the first to voice concerns about thallium in the late 225 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 1: eighteen seventies. He studied the effects of the compound on 226 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 1: chickens and ducks. The birds experienced severe weakness, tremors, difficulty breathing, 227 00:14:54,400 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 1: and often paralysis. Every bird died within days. Sure afterward, 228 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 1: Lamby's own health began to fail. Despite his warnings, companies 229 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 1: continued to use vallium in products. In the nineteen twenties, 230 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 1: California painted grain with the poison to deal with squirrels. 231 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 1: While effective, it also killed any animal that ate the 232 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 1: poisoned squirrels, including foxes, birds of prey, and household pets. 233 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 1: And the squirrels weren't the only animals eating the grain either. 234 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: Everything from songbirds to livestock died. A large group of 235 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 1: field workers came upon an unmarked back of the grain 236 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 1: and cooked it for their supper. Seven died and a 237 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 1: dozen others were paralyzed. In California banned excuse and nothing. 238 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 1: Authorities turned up answered how a poor bookkeeper in New 239 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:50,600 Speaker 1: York had managed to get the poison. For forty eight hours, 240 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 1: detectives interrogated Frederick. No matter how many times they tried 241 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 1: to get him to confess, he maintained his innocence. He 242 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 1: had no idea how his family had come across the poison. 243 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 1: After days of questioning, and with all but two of 244 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 1: his family members dead within a month, authorities tossed Frederick 245 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 1: in a jail cell, still wearing the only good suit 246 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 1: he owned, a blue one. He still owed seventeen dollars 247 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: on he fell asleep. Exhausted, detectives scoured the apartment. The 248 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 1: kitchen turned up little in the way of food, except 249 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 1: for cans of cocoa. Frederick told them that they had 250 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 1: been living off the coco as a sort of emergency 251 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 1: staple for months. He admitted that he hadn't drank any 252 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: of it, preferring to give as much as he could 253 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 1: to his children. His employer imported lots of goods, and 254 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 1: coco had been one of them. Ultimately, they had decided 255 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 1: not to add the coco to their distribution list and 256 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 1: had sold it to their employees for twenty cents a can. 257 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 1: Frederick had purchased four half pound tins. He said the 258 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: cocoa was sweet and filling and helped supplement their meager 259 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 1: grocery budget. The detectives were certain had laced the tins 260 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 1: with thallium, knowing it would kill his family, but why. 261 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:11,159 Speaker 1: The only motive was how poor they were. The police 262 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 1: reasoned that Frederick might have thought that if he poisoned 263 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:16,959 Speaker 1: his family, he'd be a free man, no more hungry 264 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 1: mouths to feed. But Frederick boggedly insisted he would have 265 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 1: never hurt his family, no matter how bad things got. 266 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:27,959 Speaker 1: His demeanor had a few detectives questioning his guilt. They 267 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 1: still couldn't figure out how he had purchased the poison, 268 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 1: and they hadn't had an insurance policy to collect on 269 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 1: since his employer imported so many goods. The search continued there. 270 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 1: Finally they discovered that the company kept thallium self aiate 271 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 1: on hand to reduce the warehouse's rat population. They questioned 272 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:50,159 Speaker 1: the other employees, but no one had anything bad to 273 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: say about Frederick, and no one had seen him mixing 274 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:57,440 Speaker 1: anything into his hands of cocoa. Police called in tooxychologist 275 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 1: Alexander Getler, who ran tests on the family's tissue samples 276 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 1: and the cocoa found in the apartment. He saw a 277 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:06,879 Speaker 1: flash of green, but further tests showed that it was 278 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 1: from copper from the tin that had leached into the 279 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:12,880 Speaker 1: cocoa powder. The case took on a new twist when 280 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 1: Getler concluded that there was indeed, ballym present in the 281 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:19,200 Speaker 1: tissue samples, but none in any of the tins of cocoa. 282 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:23,919 Speaker 1: The police searched the home once more, and this time 283 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:27,679 Speaker 1: they came up with a surprise. They finally had a 284 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 1: new suspect. The evidence, it seems, had been written down 285 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 1: for them. They found several notebooks along with medical books 286 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:53,160 Speaker 1: on poisons. The handwriting in the notebooks belonged to Katherine sr. Oddly, 287 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 1: the books were initially dismissed as unimportant. The notebooks may 288 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 1: have belonged to his wife, but certainly the books had 289 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: to have belonged to Frederick. No mother would do such 290 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:05,679 Speaker 1: a thing. She had no motive, and she had been 291 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 1: a victim herself. But after reports from the neighbors began 292 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 1: to trickle in, the district attorney couldn't ignore the picture 293 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 1: they painted. A woman who lived two doors down from 294 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:19,200 Speaker 1: the family signed a statement that she had once had 295 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:24,199 Speaker 1: an unsettling conversation with Mrs Gross. Catherine Senior had just 296 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 1: found out she was pregnant and broke down in a 297 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: moment of despair. She had said that she planned to 298 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:34,119 Speaker 1: kill her own children with rat poison. Shocked, the neighbor 299 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:37,440 Speaker 1: had asked if she was serious. The neighbor stated she 300 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:41,679 Speaker 1: had dismissed Catherine Senior's inconsolable reply that the poison she 301 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 1: had wouldn't let them suffer, that it would be as 302 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:48,200 Speaker 1: sure and quick death. It sounded so illogical, so heat 303 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:52,199 Speaker 1: of the moment that the neighbor let it go. Detectives 304 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:56,639 Speaker 1: poured over Catherine's notebooks and unraveled the truth. She had 305 00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:58,920 Speaker 1: wanted to free her husband from the burden of a 306 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 1: large family. She hated the idea of her children growing 307 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 1: up in extreme poverty. If she killed her children, Frederick 308 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 1: could get back on his feet financially. However, they found 309 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 1: no evidence indicating Katherine had planned to kill herself, and 310 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 1: Frederick insisted that he had known his wife for twenty 311 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:20,879 Speaker 1: years and that she was incapable of harming anyone. The 312 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:24,199 Speaker 1: bodies of Katherine Junior and Barbara were exhumed along with 313 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:28,919 Speaker 1: their mother. Tissue samples were taken for further analysis. The 314 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:32,359 Speaker 1: toxicologist determined that all of the children had died of 315 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 1: thalium poisoning, but surprisingly, Katherine Senior had not. It turns 316 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:42,880 Speaker 1: out she really did have encephalitis, but one question remained. 317 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 1: Katherine Senior was in the hospital by the time eighteen 318 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:49,120 Speaker 1: month old Barbara and seven year old Katherine Junior got sick. 319 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 1: How could she have killed them? The samples suggested that 320 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:56,160 Speaker 1: she had poisoned her children all at the same time. 321 00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:00,080 Speaker 1: The toxicologist offered his thoughts that two girls had and 322 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 1: given a lower dose and had taken longer to die. 323 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 1: On My twenty, charges were dismissed against Frederick Gross. Instead 324 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:11,159 Speaker 1: of going home, he went straight to the hospital to 325 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 1: see his remaining son and mother in law. He found 326 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 1: little Frank on the sun porch and burst into tears 327 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:21,439 Speaker 1: at the side of his child's bald head. Frank simply 328 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,720 Speaker 1: asked his father why he hadn't come to see him. 329 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 1: Frederick swept his son into his arms and promised he 330 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 1: wouldn't leave his side again. Reporters flocked to the hospital 331 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:34,360 Speaker 1: to interview Frederick. He told them he planned to take 332 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 1: care of his son and mother in law no matter 333 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 1: what it took. He had no idea how, since he 334 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:41,879 Speaker 1: had been in jail for nearly a month, but he 335 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:45,879 Speaker 1: smiled and said he would find a way. It turns 336 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 1: out he didn't have to. Neighbors weren't the only ones 337 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 1: who believed in his innocence. The import company had held 338 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 1: his job for him, which meant there was money in 339 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: his pocket and for the rest of his days. Frederick 340 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 1: kept his promise. There's more to this story. Stick around 341 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 1: after this brief sponsor break to hear all about it. 342 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 1: Right before Christmas, the president of the Knickerbocker Club received 343 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:26,399 Speaker 1: an unexpected package. Harry Cornish unwrapped the gift, finding a 344 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 1: blue Tiffany box containing a bottle of Bromo seltzer and 345 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:33,680 Speaker 1: a silver bottle holder. The holidays were bound to be 346 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 1: a time of over indulgence, and he tucked the gift away, 347 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,879 Speaker 1: expecting to need the acid producer at some point before 348 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:44,119 Speaker 1: the celebrations were done. After the New year, Cornish's aunt, 349 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 1: Catherine Adams, complained of a terrible migraine. Remembering the gift, 350 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:51,680 Speaker 1: he took the box out of a drawer and promptly 351 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 1: made her some of the elixir. Adams took a swig 352 00:22:55,000 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 1: and collapsed to the floor, gasping for air. Stunned, Cornish 353 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 1: called for family members. One ran off to fetch the doctor, 354 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 1: and sadly, the doctor didn't arrive fast enough to save Adams. 355 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:10,199 Speaker 1: She had just suffered a migraine. The family said she 356 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 1: had been well before then. The doctor examined the body 357 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 1: and noted the distinct smell of almonds. He also smelled 358 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 1: the same aroma from the bottle of elixir should drank 359 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 1: from suspicious. He called for an autopsy, which confirmed his theory. 360 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:30,679 Speaker 1: Adams had died from cyanide poisoning. Death by cyanide is 361 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:34,199 Speaker 1: a nasty way to go. One swallowed, it leaves a 362 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 1: corrosive trail through the digestive system. It attaches to hemoglobin, 363 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:42,239 Speaker 1: breaking down the respiration process and causing cell death due 364 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 1: to oxygen deprivation. The victim convulses violently. The gift had 365 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,200 Speaker 1: been for Cornish, but the sender hadn't left a note. 366 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:56,399 Speaker 1: Poisonings by mail usually went unsolved. Fortunately, he had stored 367 00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:00,960 Speaker 1: the wrappings along with the gift. Police asked several club 368 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: members if they knew anything about the package. The club's 369 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 1: secretary instantly recognized the handwriting on the rapper. It belonged 370 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 1: to thirty one year old Roland Millanieu, who was known 371 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:15,679 Speaker 1: to have had a dispute with Cornish. It seems the 372 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: two got into a yelling match over Cornish's reluctance to 373 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:21,639 Speaker 1: remove some of the less prominent members of the club. 374 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:24,880 Speaker 1: Molaneux had gone so far as to try to turn 375 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:28,679 Speaker 1: other members against Cornish, even writing to them demanding his expulsion. 376 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 1: Everyone had ignored the request. The police thought Molanneux was 377 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,880 Speaker 1: an unlikely suspect. He was well educated and an esteemed 378 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,200 Speaker 1: member of society. His father was a famous Civil War hero, 379 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:45,400 Speaker 1: having supported Ulysses Grant in Richmond and William Sherman during 380 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 1: his march through Georgia, and sure everyone knew. The younger 381 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 1: Molaneux suffered tantrums, described as brash and egotistical with a 382 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 1: superiority complex. His father's fame and good standing had often 383 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,160 Speaker 1: shielded him, and people made con sessions for his behavior 384 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:06,639 Speaker 1: based on his status unpleasant personality aside, no one thought 385 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,680 Speaker 1: someone like him would stoop to killing anyone over such 386 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:15,680 Speaker 1: a dispute. However, evidence forced police to reconsider. For one, 387 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,879 Speaker 1: Molaneu did have an account at the elite Tiffany and 388 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 1: Company's Fifth Avenue store. Paperwork showed that Molineux had made 389 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:27,719 Speaker 1: a purchase right before Christmas. Tiffany's sold silver bottles just 390 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:32,439 Speaker 1: like the one Cornish had received. Also, Molaneux worked at 391 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 1: his family's dye company and had studied chemistry. He would 392 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,440 Speaker 1: be very well educated on the poisons used to make 393 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 1: richly colored dyes like the mercury, arsenic and cyanide rich 394 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 1: Prussian blue. The company was located near the post office 395 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,880 Speaker 1: where the package had been mailed, and interviews with other 396 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 1: club members turned up another disturbing death. Just a month earlier, 397 00:25:55,359 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 1: club member Henry Barnett had died unexpectedly in November. Had 398 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:04,119 Speaker 1: been pursuing a beautiful young woman named Margaret Connell. It 399 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:07,639 Speaker 1: seems the lovely Margaret had also caught the attention of Molanieux, 400 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:12,640 Speaker 1: A l cornish Barnett had also received a mysterious package 401 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 1: containing medicine. He died three days later. With her suitor gone, 402 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 1: Molaneux stepped in and immediately proposed to Margaret, burying her. 403 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:27,439 Speaker 1: Three weeks later. Suspecting foul play, police exhumed Barnett's body. 404 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,399 Speaker 1: It's no surprise the autopsy turned up sinide throughout the 405 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:36,359 Speaker 1: stomach and other organs. Convinced Molaneux had killed two people, 406 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:40,879 Speaker 1: the justice system brought him to trial in late The 407 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,359 Speaker 1: evidence was damning and the jury returned a guilty verdict. 408 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,880 Speaker 1: Margaret divorced her husband, as you might imagine, and Molaneu 409 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,720 Speaker 1: was sent to Sing Singh to await execution. But his 410 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 1: father wasn't about to let his son hang, and he 411 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 1: hired the best lawyers to work on an appeal. On 412 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 1: August fIF teenth of nineteen o one, the New York 413 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:05,440 Speaker 1: State Court of Appeals ruled in Molaneu's favor over a 414 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 1: technicality in the prosecution's closing statement. Determined to not let 415 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:14,119 Speaker 1: a murderer escape justice, the prosecution tried him again, but 416 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:17,159 Speaker 1: his father's pockets were deep, and the attorneys got him 417 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 1: acquitted free once more. Roland Molaneux became obsessed with the 418 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 1: plight of unjustly convicted men. A few years later, he 419 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 1: suffered a mental breakdown and was committed to the New 420 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 1: York State Hospital for the Insane, where he remained for 421 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 1: the rest of his life. The general feeling from the 422 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,399 Speaker 1: public was that the son was guilty, but the jury 423 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:41,200 Speaker 1: had exonerated the father. In the end, the only people 424 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,880 Speaker 1: the father and son had managed to deceive were themselves. 425 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:58,919 Speaker 1: American Shadows as hosted by Lauren Vogelbaum. This episode was 426 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 1: written by Michelle Uto, researched by Ali Steed and produced 427 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:07,359 Speaker 1: by Miranda Hawkins and Trevor Young, with executive producers Aaron Mankey, 428 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 1: Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. To learn more about the show, 429 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 1: visit grim and mild dot com. For more podcasts from 430 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 1: iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or 431 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts.