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Speaker 1: Fellow conspiracy realists, Welcome back to our classic episode. This

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Speaker 1: one is going to be unfortunately prescient again. As we

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Speaker 1: all recall, towards the very end of October twenty twenty,

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Speaker 1: we started answering some questions about white supremacist groups infiltrating

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Speaker 1: the military.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, it would seem today maybe a little

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Speaker 2: more concerned with white supremacist groups infiltrating the paramilitary in

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Speaker 2: the form of ICE agents that are not very well vetted,

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Speaker 2: if vetted at all. You know, somebody pointed out to me, guys,

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Speaker 2: how come the Proud Boys aren't showing up to demonstrations anymore.

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Speaker 3: I'll tell you why. Because they're the ones in the masks.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because they're working for ICE. They've got a schedule now.

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Speaker 1: They can't just willing nearly go to protests. They have

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Speaker 1: to get sent out unqualified to cause in dangerous ways.

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Speaker 2: And proud voice, stand by, stand down. Whatever the hell

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Speaker 2: you said, it's coming to pass.

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Speaker 4: I think we mentioned it in our last video episode

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Speaker 4: we made for Netflix, This is out of time. Who

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Speaker 4: knows you Nobody knows which one we're referring to. We

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Speaker 4: just mentioned it. There was the specific video of somebody

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Speaker 4: in what looks like a taco joint calling out several

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Speaker 4: people because they were suspected of being ice or something.

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Speaker 4: It's really interesting to think about just our comparisons right

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Speaker 4: now of the thing we're experiencing as immigration customs enforcement

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Speaker 4: and all of that that's happening with Department of Homeland Security,

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Speaker 4: and then the human beings that you see on your

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Speaker 4: screen in a video like that, who are They don't

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Speaker 4: appear to be people that we would necessarily associate at

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Speaker 4: all with white supremacy because they're they're not like Anglo

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Speaker 4: Saxon Caucasian dudes. But they are also members of this

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Speaker 4: thing we're associating it in a lot of ways with that.

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Speaker 1: That's a great point, man, because we are in this

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Speaker 1: episode six years ago now almost six years ago, we

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Speaker 1: looked into a very dangerous logical question. If you are

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Speaker 1: a member of a domestic terrorist group, how do you

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Speaker 1: get training?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 1: How do you get military level training for your future Shenanigans.

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Speaker 1: It turns out that white supremacist groups have infiltrated the

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Speaker 1: United States military, And to be honest, folks, back when

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Speaker 1: we figured this out, thanks to help from our many

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Speaker 1: conspiracy realists in the crowd. We lightly predict what is

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Speaker 1: going to happen, but I think it's fair to say

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Speaker 1: we didn't know it would happen so hard, happened so soon.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah.

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Speaker 4: And there's other groups that we don't talk about in

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Speaker 4: here that are just popping up in news stories all

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Speaker 4: over the place, like what.

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Speaker 3: Was that one that just happened?

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Speaker 4: Night Division? No, Night Division, Tactical that I had never

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Speaker 4: heard of, Patriot Front. There's all these interesting groups that

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Speaker 4: are at least accused of being a part of these movements.

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Speaker 4: Oh are they? And how much of that is a

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Speaker 4: story being told to us?

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Speaker 1: All right, let's roll.

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Speaker 5: It from UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History

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Speaker 5: is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now

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Speaker 5: or learn this stuff they don't want you to know.

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Speaker 5: A production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 4: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

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Speaker 4: my name is Nol.

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Speaker 1: They called me Ben weird Jo as always with our

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Speaker 1: super producer Paul, Mission Control decand most importantly, you are you.

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Speaker 1: You are here, and that makes this stuff they don't

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Speaker 1: want you to know. Today's episode, spoiler Alert is about

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Speaker 1: more than one conspiracy. We are exploring a rat's nest

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Speaker 1: or a rat king of interlinked events. These are things

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Speaker 1: that at a cursory glance might seem like isolated, tragic

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Speaker 1: cases of a lone wolf or what are sometimes called

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Speaker 1: bad apples. However, as we are going to find out

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Speaker 1: very shortly, each of these cases turns out to be

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Speaker 1: the facet of something much much larger and something incredibly dangerous. Because,

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Speaker 1: you see, folks, it turns out that the US military

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Speaker 1: may be training the domestic terrorist of the future. Oh boy, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's I mean, have you guys we've talked about this,

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Speaker 1: you know, like Timothy McVeigh and various groups that aim

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Speaker 1: for insurrection or they want to secede from the nation.

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Speaker 1: I think there was a stat we learned years ago

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Speaker 1: that at any given time there are at least a

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Speaker 1: hundred secessionist groups of varying seriousness in the US alone.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I mean there are, And I guess

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Speaker 4: the big question is how much has the military itself

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Speaker 4: been infiltrated by groups like this, right? Or how often

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Speaker 4: have these groups used the military as a tool for

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Speaker 4: training exactly?

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Speaker 1: Here are the facts. So the US military was segregated

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Speaker 1: for a long time. It was desegregated in nineteen forty eight,

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Speaker 1: which in the span of history still isn't really that

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Speaker 1: long ago. After it was formally desegregated, there were still

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Speaker 1: segregated military units until nineteen fifty four, the same time

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Speaker 1: that Bernese convinced America to help United Fruit with coup

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Speaker 1: in Guatemala. That's the same year that these final segregated

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Speaker 1: units were disbanded. And now, even though it might not

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Speaker 1: occur to a lot of people outside of the military,

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Speaker 1: the US military is one of the most ethnically diverse

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Speaker 1: and integrated institutions in the entire country. It's crazy when

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Speaker 1: you think about it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And you know, no matter where an individual comes from,

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Speaker 4: no matter what beliefs an individual has, this person, this

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Speaker 4: individual has to work with so many other people in

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Speaker 4: order to make any unit function within the military, you

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Speaker 4: just have to you have to do that to function,

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Speaker 4: at least in a mechanical way, right, And the United

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Speaker 4: States Department of Defense has actually prohibited members of the

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Speaker 4: military from any kind of active participation in you know,

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Speaker 4: hate groups, white supremacist groups, any other extremist groups since

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Speaker 4: nineteen ninety six. And this is you may recognize this.

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Speaker 4: We already mentioned his name in the episode. That's when

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Speaker 4: the decorated Gulf War veteran and white supremacist Timothy McVeigh

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Speaker 4: carried out the Oklahoma City bombing. And you can understand

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Speaker 4: why an event like that would cause action on you know,

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Speaker 4: of an entire institution wide basis.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, I mean, because, of course, the Armed Services has

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Speaker 2: sort of safeguards in place that prohibit sort of which

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Speaker 2: you might consider it at the very basic level, conflicts

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Speaker 2: of interest, you know, prohibition of members being members of

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Speaker 2: other groups whose goals and I guess moral codes could

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Speaker 2: run counter to the goals of the military or the

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Speaker 2: nation at large. For example, you wouldn't want members of

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Speaker 2: an army to also be a member of another army

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Speaker 2: of another nation. I mean, that's the most basic way

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Speaker 2: of thinking about it. You wouldn't want someone on a

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Speaker 2: counter terrorism initiative also being in a terrorist group. It

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Speaker 2: seems silly, but this is the most cut and dry

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Speaker 2: way of thinking about it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. I mean, look, as of twenty twenty, there

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Speaker 1: are well over a million active duty personnel in the military.

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Speaker 1: They come from all over the country, have all like

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Speaker 1: a wide range of different beliefs, socioeconomic situations and so on.

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Speaker 1: These are people who in many cases wouldn't hang out

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Speaker 1: with each other for fun, you know what I mean,

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Speaker 1: may have never even had the chance to meet each other.

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Speaker 1: So we have to, as you guys point out, we

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Speaker 1: have to have a cohesive structure, and we have to

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Speaker 1: make sure that the people in that structure, the individual

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Speaker 1: links in the chain, are all working toward the same

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Speaker 1: common goal. So that's why you don't want someone who's

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Speaker 1: working in counter terrorism moonlighting as a terrorist. That's why

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Speaker 1: you don't want people who are ostensibly fighting for equality

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Speaker 1: or representing the goals of values of this nation to

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Speaker 1: also be members of groups that object to equality or

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Speaker 1: object to the goals of a nation. And so each

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Speaker 1: branch of the military has these kind of equal Opportunity

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Speaker 1: manuals that specifically prohibit service members from joining things like

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Speaker 1: the KKK or neo Nazi groups or other extremist organizations.

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Speaker 1: And troops who are caught with ties to white nationalism

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Speaker 1: are typically going to be punished by their commanders for

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Speaker 1: violating one of two things. It's either going to the

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Speaker 1: Article ninety two of the Uniform Code of Military Justice,

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Speaker 1: or they can be punished under Article one hundred and

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Speaker 1: thirty four for engaging in conduct that is generally considered

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Speaker 1: discrediting and prejudicial to good order and discipline.

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Speaker 2: And I would assume, like on the worst case side,

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Speaker 2: that would be a court martial and like a dishonorable discharge.

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Speaker 2: But I'm sure there's slap on the wrist versions of

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Speaker 2: this kind of punishment as well.

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Speaker 1: Right, Oh man, it goes yeah to say the least, Yeah.

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Speaker 4: There's a variance. And let's talk about that. Let's actually

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Speaker 4: look at some examples here. We'll give you a couple

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Speaker 4: quotes that are directly from the Army. This is at

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Speaker 4: least one directly from the Army quote. Participation in extremist

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Speaker 4: organizations and activities by Army personnel is inconsistent with the

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Speaker 4: responsibilities of military service. It is the policy of the

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Speaker 4: United States Army to provide equal opportunity and treatment for

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Speaker 4: all soldiers, without regard to race, color, religion, gender, or

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Speaker 4: national origin. Enforcement of this policy is a responsibility of command,

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Speaker 4: is vitally important to unit cohesion and morale, and is

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Speaker 4: essential to the Army's ability to accomplish its mission.

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Speaker 3: Ah, that pr person did a good job.

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Speaker 4: I mean it does it does. It reads as pr

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Speaker 4: right a.

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Speaker 1: Million percent and it has to be written that way, honestly,

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Speaker 1: m M.

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Speaker 4: I agreed. Well, let's talk about how they define extremist groups.

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Speaker 1: Get ready for some more breathtaking literature.

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Speaker 4: You ready again? This is this is from the Army.

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Speaker 3: Here we go.

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Speaker 4: Organizations and activities are ones that advocate racial, gender, or

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Speaker 4: ethnic hatred or intolerance, advocate create, or engage in illegal

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Speaker 4: discrimination based on race, color, gender, religion, or national origin,

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Speaker 4: or advocate the use of force or violence, or unlawful

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Speaker 4: means to deprive individuals of their rights under the United

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Speaker 4: States Constitution or the laws of the United States, or

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Speaker 4: any state by unlawful means.

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Speaker 1: Oka news fest. Huh, I mean.

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Speaker 3: I'm sorry.

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Speaker 2: I'm struck by everything in there, except the part that

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Speaker 2: says in the United States Constitution or the laws of

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Speaker 2: the United States could be describing the military itself.

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Speaker 4: Oh like that?

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Speaker 1: Especially well in the gender front, there's I think there's

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Speaker 1: some sand to what you're saying, But I don't think

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Speaker 1: racial or ethnic hatred at least in theory.

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Speaker 4: No.

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Speaker 2: I mean, we hate our enemies, and some of them

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Speaker 2: are racially different than us, you know. I mean again,

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Speaker 2: I'm Sorry, I'm over saying the case a little bit.

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Speaker 2: But you know, I mean, if you think of people

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Speaker 2: in the Middle East, I mean there's certainly an in

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Speaker 2: grained distrust and dare I say hatred for people that

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Speaker 2: look a certain way?

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Speaker 3: You know that.

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Speaker 2: I feel like people come out of, you know, the

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Speaker 2: conflicts in those countries perhaps with those kinds of feelings.

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Speaker 3: I don't know. I'm sure it's not everybody.

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Speaker 4: It's it's weird, man. Because do you notice what we

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Speaker 4: talked about in that paragraph before. Enforcement of this policy

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Speaker 4: is a responsibility of command. Right now, that phrase alone

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Speaker 4: means you're gonna get varying results depending on who is command.

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Speaker 4: Who is this command?

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Speaker 1: This is going to be very important later. But look, folks,

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Speaker 1: government manuals are probably never going to win a Pulitzer,

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Speaker 1: but they do make an important point. And let's put

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Speaker 1: it bluntly. Let's get past the jargon and the buzzwords here.

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Speaker 1: Uncle Sam is essentially saying, look, if we want people

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Speaker 1: to work together, we just can't have racist in the mix.

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Speaker 1: They are the weak link in the chain and they

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Speaker 1: are going to be undependable when hits the fan because

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Speaker 1: racism indicates a number of things one of the first

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Speaker 1: things it indicates is a lack of critical thinking skills,

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Speaker 1: which can be taught. But one of the second things

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Speaker 1: it indicates is a wrong a motive reaction rather than

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Speaker 1: a logical one. So they're not people you want on

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Speaker 1: the team.

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Speaker 2: No, let me quickly walk back my little cute comment

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Speaker 2: that I mean. I am not in any way implying

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Speaker 2: that the military at large is an inherently racist organization

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Speaker 2: than anyone who serves in the military comes away with

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Speaker 2: racist ideas in any way, shape or form. I just again,

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Speaker 2: it was more a response to the absurd pr ness

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Speaker 2: of this kind of writing.

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Speaker 1: Well historically too, Noel, I think your point could hold

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Speaker 1: because consider all of the heavily racially charged propaganda of

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Speaker 1: World War Two and wars of yesteryear. Service members were

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Speaker 1: encouraged to have incredibly prejudicial attitudes, and they were indoctrinated

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Speaker 1: to a large degree.

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Speaker 3: As recently as Vietnam. I mean, you know, the idea

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Speaker 3: of Charlie, and.

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Speaker 4: Of course operations in Afghanistan we've talked about before on

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Speaker 4: this show that the other ring that occurs there is

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Speaker 4: almost a necessity to to the mission to to well,

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Speaker 4: to get the mindset to to instill within an individual

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Speaker 4: the mindset that the person you're shooting at is is

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Speaker 4: less than human, is not a you know, a person

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Speaker 4: with a family, with feelings and all those things, right,

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Speaker 4: I mean, it's it's necessary. We've we've talked before about

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Speaker 4: how difficult it is to get an individual soldier to

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Speaker 4: actually fire at with intent to kill an enemy combatant.

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Speaker 4: That's not an easy thing to get into somebody's head.

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Speaker 1: It shouldn't be, for sure.

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Speaker 4: Well yeah, no, I agree, it shouldn't be, but it's

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Speaker 4: it's not like it. It is not an easy thing

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Speaker 4: to do. So you have to use tactics like what

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Speaker 4: we're discussing here to to push push it over the line, basically.

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Speaker 1: While at the same time, uh, somehow drawing a clear

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Speaker 1: line of demarcation and saying the people you were with,

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Speaker 1: the people you serve with have to be treated as

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Speaker 1: equals despite all of the stuff we're telling you about

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Speaker 1: people you're fighting. Anyway, it turns out these policies may

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Speaker 1: be fantastic on paper, but they are not as effective

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Speaker 1: in practice, and that is a massive understatement on my part.

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Speaker 1: So the question today is what exactly is going on

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Speaker 1: with supremacists in the military. Here's where it gets crazy.

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Speaker 1: There's quite a lot going on actually with a white supremacist,

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Speaker 1: in particular in the military. Let's consider the case of

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Speaker 1: one Christopher Hassan. He was a former US Coastguard lieutenant.

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Speaker 1: Just this January twenty twenty, he was sentenced to more

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Speaker 1: than thirteen years of prison for federal level drug and

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Speaker 1: gun crimes. He was also planning to commit mass murder,

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Speaker 1: a serial series of murders against various politicians and journalists

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Speaker 1: that he did not care for. He was a self

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Speaker 1: described white nationalist. He had served in the Marine Corps

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Speaker 1: from eighty eight to ninety three he became a corporal.

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Speaker 1: He'd also been in the National Guard before joining the

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Speaker 1: Coast Guard. I mean, this guy was in the system,

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Speaker 1: and the entire time he was serving in these roles,

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Speaker 1: he was radicalizing. He was reading white power manifestos online.

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Speaker 1: He was compiling this hit list. The alphabet soup. Guys

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Speaker 1: pulled his search histories and they're very not subtle. They're like,

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Speaker 1: where is best place to live DC? Democratic Senators, DC?

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Speaker 1: Do senators have protection?

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Speaker 3: DC? Goodwill? On C four? Right?

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Speaker 4: Well, yeah, and his hit list was an actual list

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Speaker 4: of hits, right, and it was focused on I guess

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Speaker 4: Democratic senators and other politicians that he thought would be

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Speaker 4: good targets. I guess due to his views like who

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Speaker 4: are in opposition to him?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and he was unstable, I mean he wasn't. The

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Speaker 1: thing is with folks who reach this level of I

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Speaker 1: would call it disassociation or bubbling.

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Speaker 3: The goals or.

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Speaker 1: The aims become increasingly disconnected from reality, by which I

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Speaker 1: mean the things they want to do become increasingly different

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Speaker 1: from the things they could realistically pull off. He wanted

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Speaker 1: to turn the Pacific Northwest into an all white homeland, you.

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Speaker 3: Know, like the good old days, which.

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Speaker 1: Is how Oregon has found it. That is true. He

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Speaker 1: wanted to use biological weapons too. And this is a

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Speaker 1: direct quote, kill almost every life, last person on Earth.

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Speaker 3: That's extreme.

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Speaker 1: It's also a tall order.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. Was he a part of an organization or was

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Speaker 4: he acting alone with all of this research he was

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Speaker 4: doing and or like, was he linked up with anyone?

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Speaker 3: Are you aware of that?

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Speaker 1: It's a good question because I am not directly aware

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Speaker 1: of prominent membership and things. But we have to understand

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Speaker 1: the concept of membership has evolved with the rise of

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Speaker 1: social media. If you are a mod on a forum

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Speaker 1: for neo Nazis. That means you're probably a neo Nazi, right,

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Speaker 1: or you work for the FBI. But does it mean

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Speaker 1: that you are a member of you know, Stormfront or

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Speaker 1: something like that. Not necessarily, It's tricky. But the thing

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Speaker 1: is about this guy. He was caught before he was

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Speaker 1: able to carry out any of these planned assassinations or attacks.

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Speaker 1: And there are more Christopher Hassan's out there. There are many,

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Speaker 1: many more than you might think, and some don't wait

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Speaker 1: to get booted out to join a supremacist organization. I'd

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Speaker 1: love to if we can just briefly talk about one

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Speaker 1: of the strangest racists I guess you could call him

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Speaker 1: supremacist organizations that have infiltrated in some part the US military.

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Speaker 1: We did an episode on this previously, but I'm still

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Speaker 1: I'm still fascinated and very confused by this group.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so let's think about another case, the case of

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Speaker 2: US Army Private Ethan Melzer, who enlisted in twenty eighteen

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Speaker 2: and was deployed in October of twenty nineteen. He was

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Speaker 2: radicalized by reading propaganda from things like the organization you're

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Speaker 2: talking about, the Order of the Nine Angles, and while

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Speaker 2: he was deployed, he had designs on orchestrating an ambush

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Speaker 2: of his own unit, sending intel about the unit to

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Speaker 2: an alleged member of al Qaeda.

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Speaker 3: What that's a lot. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: He sent texts mind you to an nine to a

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Speaker 2: thread arguing his military training, survival and links to other

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Speaker 2: groups could be an asset.

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Speaker 1: If this was over telegram, uh the messaging service. Uh

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Speaker 1: yeah yeah.

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Speaker 5: Uh.

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Speaker 1: We have this statement from in part from a press

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Speaker 1: release by Audrey Strauss, the acting US Attorney for the

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Speaker 1: Southern District of New York, and Strauss walks us through

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Speaker 1: the ins and outs of how Melser attempted to sell out.

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Speaker 4: His unit, and here's what she had to say. Melzer

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Speaker 4: allegedly attempted to orchestrate a murderous ambush on his own

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Speaker 4: unit by unlawfully revealing its location, strength, and armaments to

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Speaker 4: a neo Nazi anarchist white supremacist group. Melzer allegedly provided

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Speaker 4: this potentially deadly information, intending that it'd be conveyed to

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Speaker 4: Jihadis terrorists. As alleged, Melzer was motivated by racism and

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Speaker 4: hatred as he attempted to carry out this ultimate act

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Speaker 4: of betrayal.

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Speaker 1: And as you might recognize from previous episodes, the order

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Speaker 1: of the Nine Angles is not And I guess you can't

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Speaker 1: call them your garden variety white power group. They wouldn't

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Speaker 1: call themselves a cult, but they do a lot of

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Speaker 1: culty stuff. They practice what's known as left hand magic,

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Speaker 1: and they're into some real their beliefs are really disturbing,

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Speaker 1: but they're really confusing. Please dive into that rabbit hole,

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Speaker 1: find our previous episode, and then do your.

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Speaker 4: Own research for sure. Like Ben said, it's confusing and

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Speaker 4: it's difficult to decipher from the outside.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, just is left hand magic like when you

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Speaker 3: make coins disappear and stuff.

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Speaker 1: Or oh no, that's the right hand magic. Left hand

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Speaker 1: magic is like the the curse your family, the seventh generation,

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Speaker 1: the all the stuff you hear about you hear people

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Speaker 1: being accused of in which trials.

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Speaker 2: I'd take offense to that as a left handed person,

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Speaker 2: is the left hand like the evil hand historically in culture. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: unfortunately it's even redheads just really get on.

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Speaker 4: We're all in that boat.

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Speaker 1: So also, uh, a huge percentage of US presidents are

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Speaker 1: left handed, so it's it's it's a rare and noble trait,

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Speaker 1: I would say, and the people, uh, the people in

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Speaker 1: civilization's passed with their discrimination, were just being dicks. Don't

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Speaker 1: brush them off.

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Speaker 3: It's okay, it's that's lesson.

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Speaker 2: Less actually figures into my day to day life, as

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Speaker 2: I very rarely write things with an implement, and I

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Speaker 2: do everything else right handed, so no one would know

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Speaker 2: unless you see me, like sign a credit card receipt

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Speaker 2: or something.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I feel you, man, I'm technically ambidextrous,

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Speaker 1: but I love that point you make. How many people

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Speaker 1: do write longhand it would be called our.

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Speaker 3: Buddy Alex Williams does.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: He keeps a little notepad with him and anytime you

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Speaker 2: give him a recommendation or suggestion for something to read

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Speaker 2: or listen to, he always jots it down.

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Speaker 3: I find it charming.

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Speaker 4: Technically I'm tried dexterous, but we can talk about that later.

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Speaker 1: I'm a big fan of writing long hand. I think

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Speaker 1: it helps your brain process things differently than typing, so

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Speaker 1: I encourage everybody. Like you can't see off camera, but

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Speaker 1: I have just piles of weird notebooks and stuff. So

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Speaker 1: the mole schemes, which are overpriced but I still love them.

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Speaker 1: It's nostalgia. Any they end.

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Speaker 2: Up in a lot of swag bags. So I do

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Speaker 2: have a few mole skins laying around from giveaway.

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Speaker 4: It's not mole skin, it's mole skin, I honest, I think.

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Speaker 3: The jury still out on that. I've heard. I've heard

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Speaker 3: it said both ways.

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Speaker 2: I like to say mole scheme just because it sounds

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Speaker 2: fun and it's a nonsensical thing, whereas we know what

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Speaker 2: moleskin is.

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Speaker 3: But I don't know, what do you think, Ben.

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Speaker 4: I just clearly haven't had enough in my life. I

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Speaker 4: need to get more in my life.

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Speaker 1: I think we'll act surprise when when the holidays come around.

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Speaker 1: Matt also, I just think moleskin feels kind of gross.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, a little bit of a little bit.

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Speaker 1: But speaking of gross things, what is the scope of

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Speaker 1: this conspiracy? Are these indeed just a few bad apples?

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Speaker 1: It's a question will answer after we pause for a

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Speaker 1: word from our sponsor and we're back.

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Speaker 4: So let's look at at a survey from twenty nineteen.

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Speaker 4: It was from readers of Military Times, this is an

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Speaker 4: independent news outlet, and this is what they found. More

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Speaker 4: than thirty six percent of active duty troops surveyed said

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Speaker 4: they had personally witnessed examples of white nationalism or ideological

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Speaker 4: driven racism within the ranks in recent months, and that

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Speaker 4: was a fourteen percent increase from a similar survey that

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Speaker 4: was done the year before, in twenty eighteen. And then

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Speaker 4: in June of this year, something interesting came the way

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Speaker 4: of Congress military officials. They drew a line between active

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Speaker 4: participation and quote mere membership. Those are two quotes there,

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Speaker 4: active participation versus mere membership. The officials said, mere membership

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Speaker 4: in white supremacist groups is quote not prohibited for American

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Speaker 4: service members. But active participation and this is defined as

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Speaker 4: you know, going to a rally, going to a fundraising event,

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Speaker 4: or fundraising yourself for a racist group. That is wrong.

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Speaker 4: But if you're just you know, if you're just in

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Speaker 4: the club, what are we gonna do? That's essentially what

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Speaker 4: what was told to Congress.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but what does that mean if you if you

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Speaker 1: think about that, Like I was trying to figure out

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Speaker 1: a good example of this, So say, for instance, so

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Speaker 1: I have a fun example and I have a disturbing one.

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Speaker 1: All right, The fun example would be like, uh, I

440
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 1: don't know who's a who's a quirky celebrity, like a

441
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:37,400
Speaker 1: niche celebrity or musician.

442
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 3: You guys like Zach Gallifanakis.

443
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 1: Perfect, thank you, so Zach Galifanakis.

444
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:43,399
Speaker 5: Uh.

445
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 1: Let's say you are in the Zach Gallifanakis fan club, right,

446
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,919
Speaker 1: and you have joined the fan club. You have a

447
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 1: little card that says Zach Galifanakis Fan Club.

448
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:54,199
Speaker 2: Uh.

449
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,919
Speaker 1: They send you a swag bag with your Zach Galifanakis

450
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 1: mole skiing uh and your tea sure and maybe some

451
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:03,359
Speaker 1: like branded Provolactics or something.

452
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:05,400
Speaker 3: Copy of The Hangover to on DVD.

453
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, and they say Zach Gallifanatics on it.

454
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 1: Yes that that Matt, Yes they do, Yes, they do, Matt.

455
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 1: So you remember the Zach Gallifanatics and you have the

456
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 1: swag bag.

457
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 3: Uh.

458
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 1: And then someone says, hey, you don't actually like Zach Gallifanakis,

459
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 1: do you poser?

460
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:30,440
Speaker 3: Get out?

461
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 1: And then you say no, no, why would I Look,

462
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 1: it's just my right as an American. It's free speech,

463
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 1: uh for me to be a member of this group.

464
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 1: But I would never buy a DVD of his work.

465
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 1: I would never go to a Zach Gallifanakas show.

466
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 4: I'm would never get this tattoo of his character from

467
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 4: Dinner for Schmucks. Right, that's not that's not there.

468
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 1: So that's that's the U. See see how that line

469
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 1: between just being a member and being active is very,

470
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 1: very troubling because the just disturbing example would be something

471
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 1: like people who join those pro child abuse networks, those

472
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 1: pro pedophilia networks like Nambler or something. They can say, oh,

473
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 1: I'm just a member.

474
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 3: That's gross, you know that.

475
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 4: Just imagining somebody saying that I'm just a member of Nambler.

476
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 3: What I mean?

477
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 2: You could make the argument that you're infiltrating the network

478
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 2: of pedophiles and Zach gallifan attics. You know, to be clear,

479
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 2: those are two separate things.

480
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 3: Those are two separate things.

481
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 2: But you know that could be the argument you're making,

482
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 2: or you're just checking it out just seeing like you know,

483
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 2: like in fight Club where the dude goes to what

484
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 2: is it like bereavement meetings?

485
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 3: What are they like? Narcotics?

486
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 2: Anonymous type things, sex, sex addict naning, that's what it is.

487
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 1: And there's a real life analog of that argument, none

488
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 1: other than Pete Townsend of the Who You remember that

489
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 1: when he said that when he was caught studying depictions

490
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 1: of child abuse.

491
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 3: He said, I.

492
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 4: Don't remember that.

493
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 3: I vaguely remember that.

494
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, he said, it was research.

495
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 3: To take down the pe doos.

496
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 1: So you see how that that gets sticky in the idea.

497
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 1: We can say all the livelong day that someone is

498
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 1: just a member of an extremist group for some reason,

499
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 1: And the question is at what point, like, what is

500
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:53,719
Speaker 1: the difference between actively supporting something and passively being a

501
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 1: member of it? Will we look forward to hearing your

502
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 1: stance on this, Zach alliphanatics, There's something else that happen.

503
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 1: So there are two things we talked about. That guy

504
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 1: in the order of the Nine angles, he was like

505
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 1: in his early twenties when this happened, at which point,

506
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 1: of course, there is the psychological argument that the brain

507
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 1: is not fully formed, which does have some sand to it.

508
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 1: But what we need to talk about also would be veterans.

509
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 1: They play a big part in this conspiracy. Some veterans,

510
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 1: a very small percentage of veterans. Veterans have held leadership

511
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 1: roles in some of the most prominent, some of the

512
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 1: most well known white supremacist groups. Investigative journalists are still

513
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 1: uncovering new members of violent racist groups who are also

514
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 1: current members of the Army, the Marine Corps, Air Force,

515
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 1: and so on. But just another snapshot. The same month

516
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 1: that Hassan was convicted, in twenty twenty eight January, a

517
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 1: US Army vet and a former combat engineer from the

518
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 1: Canadian Army Reserve were found to be alleged members of

519
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 1: a neo Nazi group known as the Base. The Base

520
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 1: may be familiar to some of us because prosecutors say

521
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 1: the Base was discussing plans to create violence at a

522
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 1: pro gun rally in Virginia, with the ultimate aim of

523
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 1: sparking a civil war.

524
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 4: Wow, it's still hard for me to wrap my head

525
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 4: around that being the end goal for some of these groups,

526
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 4: but we know it historically that has been one of

527
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 4: the one of the reasons for joining a group like

528
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 4: this before the existence of a group like this is

529
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,480
Speaker 4: to folment. One of the first things is to folment

530
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 4: a civil war. Let's get a civil war going on

531
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 4: so we can then go in through the ashes of

532
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 4: the country and rebuild it as we see fit.

533
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 2: And you know, without putting too fine a political point

534
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 2: on it, it starts to feel like the idea of

535
00:32:57,600 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 2: these proud boys and some of these groups that were

536
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 2: seeing today could be that thing, you know, the kind

537
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 2: of foot soldiers in the streets sort of trying to

538
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 2: foment that civil war and bringing the war home or

539
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 2: or whatever and trying to you know, shut down the Libs.

540
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 3: Literally.

541
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. And you know there's an author, they're numerous authors,

542
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 1: one in particular who would agree with that point. Kathleen

543
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 1: Bellew who is the author of a book called Bring

544
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:29,800
Speaker 1: the War Home, notes that US veterans have played key

545
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 1: roles in white supremacist movements in the United States for

546
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 1: more than one hundred years. I mean, the ku Klux

547
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 1: Klan had new waves of resurgence after both World Wars,

548
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 1: after the Vietnam War. Also, it was founded by a

549
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:48,960
Speaker 1: group of Confederate veterans. This author sees similarities just like

550
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 1: you pointed out, in the recent wave of alt right

551
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 1: white supremacists organizing. And she says that this has been

552
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 1: shaped to a great degree by America's war on terror

553
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 1: in the Middle East. And we see something interesting here

554
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:14,319
Speaker 1: because again, the US military is trying to filter out

555
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 1: racists in the recruiting process, and this has led some

556
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:26,760
Speaker 1: supremacist groups to adopt a different strategy to encourage young

557
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 1: members to join the US military because of the training

558
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 1: and the access to weapons that they will gain, and

559
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:39,000
Speaker 1: then they can use that access and use that expertise

560
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 1: to teach other members of the organizations after they leave

561
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 1: the service or during their time in the service, maybe

562
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:51,880
Speaker 1: even actively recruit vulnerable people who are serving with them.

563
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 4: Man, that's pretty disturbing again, using the military as a

564
00:34:56,080 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 4: training and weapons acquisition up opportunity, And just one thing

565
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:04,320
Speaker 4: to just put a point on there, we are talking

566
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:10,960
Speaker 4: specifically about white supremacist groups and organizations and individuals who

567
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:14,319
Speaker 4: have been, you know, using this tactic. But like we

568
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 4: said in the beginning, this applies to any hate based

569
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:25,919
Speaker 4: or discriminatory based organization or group, right. It's it could

570
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:28,840
Speaker 4: be anything, and it really is just I mean, just

571
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:33,280
Speaker 4: even talking about this is a super touchy subject in

572
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:35,919
Speaker 4: the concept of the military being used in this way,

573
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:40,319
Speaker 4: and unfortunately, there have been attempts and plans put in

574
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:45,799
Speaker 4: place to fix this problem. But as we've seen in

575
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,319
Speaker 4: the past and we will continue to see in the future,

576
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 4: unless there's a massive change taking action from you know,

577
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 4: politicians within the United States, specifically within Congress to actually

578
00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:01,320
Speaker 4: write a bill or you know, something to fix this issue,

579
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 4: to change something it's been difficult historically and again probably

580
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 4: in the future. In two thousand and nine, under the

581
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 4: Obama administration, there were Republican members of Congress and they

582
00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 4: were essentially attempting to get the Department of Homeland Security

583
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:21,480
Speaker 4: chief to apologize after there was an intelligence briefing that

584
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 4: warned about some of this stuff that the US military

585
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 4: veterans of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan would be

586
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 4: vulnerable to some type of radicalization by white supremacists and

587
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:37,399
Speaker 4: by anti government groups and some of the alt right

588
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:41,719
Speaker 4: more extremist splinter groups that we've seen.

589
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it was a good flag to raise on

590
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:50,840
Speaker 1: the side of Homeland Security because they're just they're conveying

591
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 1: what they find in an intelligence briefing. The reaction from

592
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 1: the reaction from those who objected to this characterization or

593
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 1: this intelligence briefing. They were really reacting to what they

594
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 1: saw as something that was somehow offensive or an attack

595
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:15,319
Speaker 1: on conservative identifying people at large, And they said, well,

596
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 1: what is it. This implies that all conservatives are somehow

597
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:22,440
Speaker 1: a bigger threat to the US than al Qaeda, which

598
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:28,759
Speaker 1: is incredible, Like cartoonishly misleading. It is so clear that

599
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:35,319
Speaker 1: supremacist and conservative people are not the same because just

600
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:39,800
Speaker 1: because you might have a more conservative view on something

601
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 1: like how much you should pay in taxes, right, that

602
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 1: doesn't automatically mean that same person is somehow pro genocide.

603
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 1: It's it's frankly kind of ridiculous that we would even

604
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 1: have to spell that out here. But that's some of

605
00:37:55,160 --> 00:38:00,319
Speaker 1: the vitriol that was happening, and there was of an

606
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:02,280
Speaker 1: appeal to emotion.

607
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 4: But well, yeah, and I would just add to that,

608
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 4: just because someone would view themselves as morally conservative even

609
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 4: has no correlation with these other hate groups. There's absolutely

610
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:19,719
Speaker 4: zero correlation. Don't ever let yourself believe that, no matter

611
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:22,880
Speaker 4: what you read on you know, whatever social media outlet

612
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 4: you're looking at. Just just be aware that's all.

613
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 3: Yeah.

614
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 1: Again, you know, it's the danger of the broad brush,

615
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:38,400
Speaker 1: which is very convenient for many powerful organizations, the media included.

616
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:44,719
Speaker 1: So while objecting to that intelligence briefing may have been

617
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:49,880
Speaker 1: a good short term move for the politicians in question,

618
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 1: you know, get them some headlines, get them some column

619
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:57,800
Speaker 1: space in the newspapers. Of note, in the long term,

620
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:01,319
Speaker 1: it was not It's not a helpful thing, because the

621
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,759
Speaker 1: problem is real, and the problem seems to be increasing.

622
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:07,160
Speaker 1: When we talked about this conspiracy. If you look at

623
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:11,400
Speaker 1: cases of white nationalism in the US military since the

624
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 1: attacks on September eleventh, two thousand and one, you are

625
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:18,439
Speaker 1: going to find dozens and dozens of cases of white

626
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:23,279
Speaker 1: nationalists in the military. And these are just the examples

627
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 1: of troops who have been caught, who have been written

628
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 1: about in the media and have been disciplined or punished.

629
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:33,959
Speaker 1: And if we think about that earlier poll, if more

630
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:38,279
Speaker 1: than one in three troops today have witnessed something like

631
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:42,760
Speaker 1: this in the ranks, then we have to think along

632
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:46,440
Speaker 1: the lines of the excellent article written by David Chrissinger

633
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:51,320
Speaker 1: for warhorse dot org where he asked how many white

634
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 1: nationalists in the military don't just slip through the cracks

635
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:59,400
Speaker 1: during the recruitment process, how many also remain undetected on

636
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:03,080
Speaker 1: account of four and unpunished. And he has a quote

637
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:07,560
Speaker 1: here that I think sums up the problem really well.

638
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:12,279
Speaker 2: Yes, and Chris Singer writes this quote, the truth is

639
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:15,239
Speaker 2: that no one knows how prevalent white nationalism is in

640
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:17,879
Speaker 2: the US military. During a hearing of the House Armed

641
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 2: Services sub Committee on Military Personnel. In February twenty twenty,

642
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:27,040
Speaker 2: representatives of Naval Criminal Investigative Service and the Army's Criminal

643
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 2: Investigation Division testified they had no reliable data on how

644
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:38,720
Speaker 2: many troops have been administratively discharged for promoting white supremacist ideologies.

645
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:41,840
Speaker 2: The Marine Corps, which has seen its fair share of

646
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:44,799
Speaker 2: white nationalism among its ranks, does not track the number

647
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:48,280
Speaker 2: of Marines and discharges for ties to white nationalist groups.

648
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:50,440
Speaker 2: So this goes back to that question I asked at

649
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:53,319
Speaker 2: the top of the show, right, like, is there a

650
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:55,839
Speaker 2: slap on the wrist version of this punishment that we're

651
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:56,480
Speaker 2: talking about.

652
00:40:56,760 --> 00:41:00,799
Speaker 3: It would seem so, Oh, it would seem way so.

653
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:04,160
Speaker 3: And we'll talk more about that after a quick word

654
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:05,240
Speaker 3: from our sponsor.

655
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:16,320
Speaker 1: And we're back. So in this episode, we've been setting

656
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 1: up a couple of things they've been alluded to that

657
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:23,080
Speaker 1: have been foreshadowed. I'd like to present one of the

658
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:27,600
Speaker 1: biggest problems with this. So one of the problems, as

659
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:33,759
Speaker 1: Chrissinger put so succinctly, is that parts of the military

660
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:36,719
Speaker 1: that should be keeping track of this stuff are not.

661
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:40,239
Speaker 1: For one reason or another, maybe they've been prevented from

662
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 1: doing so. Maybe there's just red tape in the way.

663
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:48,560
Speaker 1: It reminds me of the FBI's weird blind spot when

664
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:53,840
Speaker 1: it comes to tallying disappearances in public parks. Now we

665
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 1: have to talk about the other problem, which is punishment, Matt.

666
00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:01,280
Speaker 1: As you mentioned in the earlier quote from the military's

667
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:06,799
Speaker 1: Operations Manual, the severity of a punishment or discipline that

668
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:10,479
Speaker 1: a white nationalist receives, and whether they're punished at all,

669
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:15,239
Speaker 1: depends entirely on their commanders, and those commanders typically are

670
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:18,760
Speaker 1: going to have almost one hundred percent discretion over how

671
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:25,719
Speaker 1: any violation is investigated, prosecuted, or adjucated. So to know

672
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:31,760
Speaker 1: the full extent of the supremacist infiltration occurring, the DoD

673
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 1: would have to do something like this. They would have

674
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 1: to go back and see how many people violated Articles

675
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,719
Speaker 1: ninety two and one hundred and thirty four. They would

676
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 1: have to add those numbers together. But those numbers, again

677
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 1: only include the people who were caught and disciplined, So

678
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:55,960
Speaker 1: it leaves out anyone who was caught and reported to

679
00:42:56,000 --> 00:43:01,400
Speaker 1: their commander but then had their commander say, I don't know,

680
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:03,279
Speaker 1: we have bigger fish to fry. I don't know if

681
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:06,840
Speaker 1: we need to investigate this or discipline this person, maybe

682
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:08,800
Speaker 1: we just tell them stop.

683
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:12,920
Speaker 4: But it does make you wonder who's watching the watchman,

684
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:16,080
Speaker 4: who's looking at the commanders to make sure they're above board.

685
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:21,359
Speaker 1: According to Carter F. Smith, he's a former criminal investigator.

686
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 1: Currently he's a criminal justice instructor at Middle Tennessee University

687
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:30,760
Speaker 1: Middle Tennessee State University. According to him, military officials always

688
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:33,920
Speaker 1: say the number of actual white nationalists in the ranks

689
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 1: are small, and because of that, because there's such a

690
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:41,160
Speaker 1: small slice of the demographic, they're not really a priority.

691
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:47,000
Speaker 1: And Carter's objection is this. He says, Okay, fine, maybe

692
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:51,160
Speaker 1: the number is small, but it's like saying it's a

693
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:55,239
Speaker 1: small dose of poison. He says, you know, they're like

694
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:58,319
Speaker 1: a drop of cyanide in your drink. They're not the

695
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:00,480
Speaker 1: majority of the liquid, but they can still do a

696
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:02,960
Speaker 1: lot of damage. And I think that is a very

697
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 1: very good point. And I want to emphasize something here, Matt.

698
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:12,400
Speaker 1: I think you may have mentioned this earlier, but extremism

699
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:15,480
Speaker 1: is a danger in all forms, and there's a reason

700
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:18,920
Speaker 1: that we're talking primarily about white nationalist groups today. They

701
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 1: receive the most attention. They've been linked to the highest

702
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 1: number of attempted or successfully carried out terrorist attacks domestically

703
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 1: in the US in this genre of terrorism and extremism.

704
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:43,880
Speaker 1: But other supremacist groups exist, They exist, and they have

705
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:49,280
Speaker 1: used some of the same strategies. You recruit alienated people

706
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 1: in the rank and file, You recruit isolated veterans who

707
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 1: feel like they're kind of lost after getting out of

708
00:44:56,560 --> 00:45:00,160
Speaker 1: the service, and use them as tools. You radicalize them,

709
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:04,880
Speaker 1: and you make them a puppet for your agenda, and

710
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:07,480
Speaker 1: make a mistake, you throw them away when you're done.

711
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 1: That's something that I think isn't emphasized enough for the

712
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 1: military members who experienced this stuff firsthand. White nationalism in

713
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:20,960
Speaker 1: particular stands out the most frequently. So this is not

714
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:27,880
Speaker 1: this is not us editorializing or quote unquote picking on

715
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:32,879
Speaker 1: a specific genre of hate group. This is coming from

716
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:36,160
Speaker 1: firsthand reports from troops. Like the troops who responded to

717
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 1: that poll we mentioned earlier cited white nationalism as a

718
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:45,280
Speaker 1: greater national security threat than domestic terrorism with a connection

719
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:51,040
Speaker 1: to Islam or immigration. So obviously the military does not

720
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:57,760
Speaker 1: want racist recruits. This is hopefully not a hot take,

721
00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:03,840
Speaker 1: but race is a defect. It's a defect of the

722
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:08,359
Speaker 1: mind that would render someone unable to serve to the

723
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 1: fullest extent of their physical fitness and their mental ability.

724
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:18,360
Speaker 1: So obviously the military doesn't want that. However, it doesn't

725
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:21,800
Speaker 1: have a solid, full proof system for screening those folks

726
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:24,520
Speaker 1: out in the first place. Recruits go through a criminal

727
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:27,799
Speaker 1: background check when they a list, of course, but this

728
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:31,319
Speaker 1: only detects, like we said, extremist membership if they've been

729
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:34,360
Speaker 1: charged with a crime relating to those kind of beliefs,

730
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:37,600
Speaker 1: and the vetting system still doesn't really address social media,

731
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 1: and social media is where a huge deal of modern

732
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:46,440
Speaker 1: radicalization and hate recruitment occurs, you know what I mean.

733
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:52,000
Speaker 1: The Zach Gallifanatics exist online, they don't have a physical clubhouse.

734
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:55,200
Speaker 1: And again I'm not calling the Zach Galifanatics a hate group.

735
00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:59,440
Speaker 1: I think they do very good work. And I'm a

736
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:04,640
Speaker 1: big fan of Galafan Colon, so I hope to see

737
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:05,719
Speaker 1: everybody there next year.

738
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 2: I often do rituals reading from the Galapa Necronomicon.

739
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:14,320
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, it's it's it's it's pretty. It's a pretty

740
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 1: comprehensive book, you know.

741
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 3: Dare we say a tome sir.

742
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:26,319
Speaker 1: A grimois a source a smirk waw anyway, gosh, So

743
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:30,360
Speaker 1: this this means that the government has a lot to do.

744
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 1: It's got a lot of work ahead of it in

745
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:36,280
Speaker 1: terms of how to address this. There are multiple studies

746
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:42,280
Speaker 1: by multiple government entities and nonprofit institutions exploring this issue.

747
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:46,040
Speaker 1: The findings are a subject of ongoing debate, and rightly so,

748
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:50,560
Speaker 1: because the reality is that people know there is a

749
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:54,520
Speaker 1: conspiracy here, but there's no foolproof way yet to stop

750
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:58,560
Speaker 1: this infiltration, which is what it is in some cases.

751
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:02,640
Speaker 1: And there's no foolproof way to prevent individuals with high

752
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:08,200
Speaker 1: level military training from you know, leaving the service and

753
00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:12,360
Speaker 1: then going on to train members of your local hate group.

754
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 1: Like how would you how would you even begin to

755
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:17,880
Speaker 1: legislate that?

756
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:18,399
Speaker 3: Right?

757
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 1: Tell somebody, look, I know that you have learned all

758
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:27,640
Speaker 1: these things. Now I have to write a law somehow.

759
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:32,239
Speaker 1: That's that restricts, at every moment in your life, your

760
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:36,360
Speaker 1: ability to use that experience or teach those things. You

761
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:40,040
Speaker 1: know what I mean. It's it's very difficult.

762
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:43,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I really don't. I don't know how

763
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:46,000
Speaker 4: you how you fix it? And I wonder if the

764
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:48,920
Speaker 4: way the way you fix it is to use pr

765
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:51,919
Speaker 4: to make it seem like the problem was not so bad.

766
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:54,680
Speaker 4: But I guess that would mean you're not actually fixing it,

767
00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:56,839
Speaker 4: you're just making it look as though it's not.

768
00:48:58,400 --> 00:48:59,920
Speaker 3: Such a problem. I don't know.

769
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:02,319
Speaker 4: That's that's weird, man.

770
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:05,759
Speaker 1: And it's strange because you know, we have we have

771
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:10,920
Speaker 1: a lot of veterans who are fellow listeners. We have

772
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 1: a lot of family members and friends who have been

773
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:21,840
Speaker 1: or are currently serving in the military. And in the

774
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:25,160
Speaker 1: course of my research for this, I talked to some

775
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:27,759
Speaker 1: folks just off the record, you know, give me your

776
00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:32,560
Speaker 1: take what's going on. And I the responses I got,

777
00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:35,600
Speaker 1: you know, said that this is a very real thing.

778
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:40,879
Speaker 1: One of the I'm laughing about serious subject. Because one

779
00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:45,120
Speaker 1: of the responses I got from person I won't identify

780
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 1: was just hilarious. They were like, I hate those people.

781
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:53,120
Speaker 1: They're bad at their jobs. I said, well, that's the

782
00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:56,960
Speaker 1: number the number one problem you have, and and this

783
00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:00,600
Speaker 1: person said, well, look, yeah, okay, their beliefs are terrible,

784
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:08,280
Speaker 1: but also their beliefs are a symptom of the fact

785
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:11,960
Speaker 1: that they're not intelligent and they're bad at their jobs.

786
00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:14,520
Speaker 1: And them being bad at their jobs is what really

787
00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:16,360
Speaker 1: annoys me on a day to day basis.

788
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:18,839
Speaker 2: It's just to your point earlier Ben at the very

789
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:21,759
Speaker 2: top of the show, it kind of points to a

790
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:25,880
Speaker 2: certain lack of critical thinking abilities and this sort of

791
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:32,040
Speaker 2: need to oversimplify problems and hang them on a particular

792
00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:36,640
Speaker 2: group when clearly it's a much larger issue than that.

793
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 2: And it's just such a leap of logic that these

794
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:43,399
Speaker 2: folks are able to do that. It really just kind

795
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:45,960
Speaker 2: of makes me think they're not particularly bright.

796
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:49,719
Speaker 3: That's about the shape of it there.

797
00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:53,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm not good at their jobs, I guess

798
00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:57,520
Speaker 1: right now. And I'm you know, I'm tempted to agree

799
00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:01,239
Speaker 1: racism has learned. It's something they can be unlearned. Uh,

800
00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:03,440
Speaker 1: And it's something that people have to have.

801
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:04,000
Speaker 3: To work through.

802
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:09,319
Speaker 1: The issue here is the infiltration of one of the

803
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:15,840
Speaker 1: most in the most powerful military force on the planet.

804
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:16,799
Speaker 5: You know what I mean?

805
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:22,319
Speaker 1: Uh, this is this is dangerous when we think that

806
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:27,439
Speaker 1: the most powerful military in the world may be unwittingly

807
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:33,359
Speaker 1: training the people who want to destroy the country. This

808
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:37,759
Speaker 1: military serves, you know what I mean? Yeah, like the

809
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:41,320
Speaker 1: call is coming from inside the house, as they say

810
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:43,080
Speaker 1: in horror stories and.

811
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:44,960
Speaker 3: It's j Edgarhova.

812
00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:51,359
Speaker 1: And he didn't help things. And imagine, you know, there's

813
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:54,600
Speaker 1: so many brilliant people in the military. There's so many

814
00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:58,040
Speaker 1: people who joined the services, uh because it represented an

815
00:51:58,040 --> 00:52:01,719
Speaker 1: opportunity that would not have otherwise been available, right, and

816
00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:05,600
Speaker 1: these people are doing incredibly important work, and stuff like this,

817
00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:11,560
Speaker 1: extremist groups and infiltration, this kind of stuff you should

818
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:14,320
Speaker 1: be offensive to every member of the military.

819
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:18,759
Speaker 4: So as we reached the conclusion here, we really want

820
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:23,280
Speaker 4: to know your experience, especially if you've been an active

821
00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:27,480
Speaker 4: military duty in any branch. We just want to hear

822
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:31,239
Speaker 4: what you've seen while you were there and what you

823
00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:33,040
Speaker 4: think about this whole problem.

824
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:35,000
Speaker 3: And of course, thank you for your service so much.

825
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:37,279
Speaker 2: I mean, I hope none of this came off as

826
00:52:37,360 --> 00:52:39,080
Speaker 2: us like ragging on the military.

827
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:39,760
Speaker 3: I mean, it's.

828
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:44,400
Speaker 2: Obviously an important and valuable institution, and like many important

829
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:48,880
Speaker 2: and valuable institutions, there are inherent problems sometimes. But it

830
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:51,759
Speaker 2: doesn't you mean, you know that the whole idea of

831
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:54,400
Speaker 2: bad apples, you know, that's what we're talking about here.

832
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:58,560
Speaker 2: It's such a ridiculous term as what is it Chris

833
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:02,560
Speaker 2: Rock talking about bad apples in the police force or

834
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:04,719
Speaker 2: we call them bad apples if they're pilots. You know,

835
00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:07,919
Speaker 2: there's a couple of bad apples crashing planes all the time.

836
00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:10,799
Speaker 2: You know, that's an interesting way looking at it. But

837
00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:17,760
Speaker 2: absolutely very much value are military members, and we particularly

838
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:20,120
Speaker 2: want to hear from you because we know there are

839
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:22,600
Speaker 2: folks that are in this that are seeing this firsthand,

840
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:25,239
Speaker 2: and let us know what that's like and how it

841
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:28,319
Speaker 2: affects you, how it affects day to day operations. Is

842
00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:31,960
Speaker 2: it something you have to tiptoe around? Is it in leadership?

843
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:32,759
Speaker 3: Let us know.

844
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:34,920
Speaker 4: You can find us on Facebook and Twitter where we

845
00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:38,880
Speaker 4: are conspiracy stuff. On Instagram we are a conspiracy stuff show.

846
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:41,279
Speaker 4: If you don't want to do those things, we have

847
00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:44,080
Speaker 4: a number you can call what use your phone as

848
00:53:44,120 --> 00:53:50,360
Speaker 4: a phone crazy. Our number is one eight three three STDWYTK.

849
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:54,120
Speaker 4: Leave us a message, tell us, tell us your experience,

850
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:56,680
Speaker 4: tell us about an episode you'd like to see us cover,

851
00:53:56,880 --> 00:54:00,440
Speaker 4: or anything else, but especially let us know if you're

852
00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:03,440
Speaker 4: okay with us using your name if the message gets

853
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:07,040
Speaker 4: played on air in one of our listener mail episodes.

854
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:10,479
Speaker 1: Hold your Horses, you might be saying a phone call

855
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:15,520
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty, perish the thought and embarrass the thought

856
00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:19,480
Speaker 1: of social media as well. If you are having those

857
00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:23,239
Speaker 1: thoughts race through the twisted hauls of your mind and

858
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:26,760
Speaker 1: bounce around and your subconscious and you have something to say,

859
00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:31,120
Speaker 1: but you need an easier way to say it to us,

860
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:34,320
Speaker 1: we have good news for you. We have an old

861
00:54:34,320 --> 00:54:38,040
Speaker 1: fashioned email address. You can reach us anytime, wherever you are,

862
00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:40,919
Speaker 1: whomever you are. All you have to do is drop

863
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:42,080
Speaker 1: us a line where we.

864
00:54:42,160 --> 00:55:03,279
Speaker 2: Are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

865
00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:05,680
Speaker 4: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production

866
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:10,319
Speaker 4: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

867
00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:13,280
Speaker 4: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.