1
00:00:01,500 --> 00:00:10,539
Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. Hey,

2
00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:15,220
Speaker 1: and welcome to the Epic Cast. This is Josh. There's Chuck.

3
00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:19,529
Speaker 1: Jerry's here, too. We're all wearing breastplates, and that means

4
00:00:19,570 --> 00:00:20,690
Speaker 1: this is Stuff You Should Know.

5
00:00:21,270 --> 00:00:22,489
Speaker 2: To protect our chest.

6
00:00:23,450 --> 00:00:26,630
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm also wearing a codpiece, but that's not unusual

7
00:00:26,650 --> 00:00:26,840
Speaker 1: for me.

8
00:00:27,730 --> 00:00:28,550
Speaker 2: To protect your cod.

9
00:00:29,700 --> 00:00:30,860
Speaker 1: I know. Why is it called that?

10
00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:31,760
Speaker 2: Fish of the day.

11
00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,659
Speaker 1: What if you dated somebody who referred to that as

12
00:00:35,700 --> 00:00:40,260
Speaker 1: your cod? Wouldn't you be like, please stop calling it that?

13
00:00:40,979 --> 00:00:42,839
Speaker 2: Yeah. It's like, do you mind giving me some privacy?

14
00:00:42,860 --> 00:00:45,440
Speaker 2: I'm in here washing my cod. Right.

15
00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:49,280
Speaker 1: They would say, I'm sorry. I majored in the Canterbury Tales.

16
00:00:50,300 --> 00:00:53,840
Speaker 2: What a weird way to start the odyssey. I know.

17
00:00:54,410 --> 00:00:56,910
Speaker 1: I know. And you're the one who wrote those lines.

18
00:00:57,330 --> 00:00:57,850
Speaker 2: I know. That's true.

19
00:00:59,070 --> 00:01:01,690
Speaker 1: Uh, yeah, we're talking about the Odyssey. You saw the

20
00:01:01,770 --> 00:01:04,509
Speaker 1: Odyssey and you were like, how's the Odyssey work? And

21
00:01:04,530 --> 00:01:05,570
Speaker 1: here we are, right?

22
00:01:06,150 --> 00:01:08,089
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, you know, I saw the movie. Uh,

23
00:01:08,130 --> 00:01:10,710
Speaker 2: I thought it was really good. I am no Christopher

24
00:01:10,750 --> 00:01:13,560
Speaker 2: Nolan fan boy. I'm about 50, 50 with him. Maybe,

25
00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:16,380
Speaker 2: maybe 60, 40 with ones I like.

26
00:01:17,420 --> 00:01:20,119
Speaker 1: Which ones do you like? Aside from Memento, obviously.

27
00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:23,240
Speaker 2: Well, I liked Memento. I liked the prestige. I liked

28
00:01:23,300 --> 00:01:24,420
Speaker 2: the Batman movies.

29
00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:25,300
Speaker 3: Yeah.

30
00:01:25,740 --> 00:01:29,270
Speaker 2: Um, Didn't love, I mean, Oppenheimer was quote-unquote good, I guess,

31
00:01:29,310 --> 00:01:30,690
Speaker 2: but it was a bit of a slog for me,

32
00:01:30,709 --> 00:01:31,990
Speaker 2: and I never wanted to see it again.

33
00:01:32,010 --> 00:01:34,070
Speaker 1: I could see that.

34
00:01:34,250 --> 00:01:38,550
Speaker 2: I think you and I had the same problems with Interstellar. Yeah.

35
00:01:38,650 --> 00:01:40,190
Speaker 2: I did not see Tenet because I heard it was

36
00:01:40,209 --> 00:01:42,250
Speaker 2: so bad. So, yeah, he sort of hit or miss

37
00:01:42,270 --> 00:01:44,640
Speaker 2: for me, but I really thought the Odyssey was great,

38
00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:47,350
Speaker 2: and it kind of hit me after I saw it.

39
00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:50,280
Speaker 2: I was like, it's kind of just crazy, this idea

40
00:01:50,300 --> 00:01:53,900
Speaker 2: that this story that's this old, like one of the

41
00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:58,180
Speaker 2: oldest stories... like can still resonate with an audience in 2026.

42
00:01:58,180 --> 00:02:01,220
Speaker 2: And like, what is it about that story itself? And

43
00:02:01,260 --> 00:02:06,230
Speaker 2: I knew nothing about just the Odyssey as a literary piece.

44
00:02:06,330 --> 00:02:09,190
Speaker 2: And I didn't know much about Homer. Like I was

45
00:02:09,210 --> 00:02:11,350
Speaker 2: an English major, but we didn't, I guess I didn't

46
00:02:11,370 --> 00:02:13,490
Speaker 2: do the classes where we studied this stuff.

47
00:02:14,150 --> 00:02:18,220
Speaker 1: Well, in your defense, it was written in Ionic, not English.

48
00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:19,400
Speaker 2: So yeah, good point.

49
00:02:20,830 --> 00:02:24,400
Speaker 1: So, yeah, I can totally see where you're coming from.

50
00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:27,280
Speaker 1: The story has legs, I guess, is how you'd put it.

51
00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:29,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just kind of fascinating to me as a

52
00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:30,500
Speaker 2: piece of work.

53
00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:32,880
Speaker 1: For sure. And let's talk about this piece of work

54
00:02:32,900 --> 00:02:36,200
Speaker 1: because there's a lot to talk about, not just recounting

55
00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:39,910
Speaker 1: the highlights of the story and spoiling the movie, I guess,

56
00:02:39,950 --> 00:02:43,750
Speaker 1: for anybody who hasn't paid attention over the last, like,

57
00:02:43,770 --> 00:02:46,290
Speaker 1: 2,000-something years. Yeah, if you can't.

58
00:02:47,100 --> 00:02:51,060
Speaker 2: If you can't, uh, spoil something written in the eighth century, then, uh,

59
00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:52,620
Speaker 2: I'm just sorry.

60
00:02:53,250 --> 00:02:59,410
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. So about almost 3000 years ago, the 700s BCE, right.

61
00:03:00,389 --> 00:03:05,070
Speaker 1: That's where they think Homer first put this to paper. Uh,

62
00:03:05,169 --> 00:03:07,639
Speaker 1: but the whole thing, and it's attributed to the Greek

63
00:03:07,700 --> 00:03:10,560
Speaker 1: poet Homer, uh, who I guess this would have been

64
00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:16,100
Speaker 1: post bronze age, um, Like after the Bronze Age collapse,

65
00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:19,900
Speaker 1: I think, is when Homer was walking around. If Homer

66
00:03:19,940 --> 00:03:22,480
Speaker 1: was even walking around, we'll talk about in a second.

67
00:03:23,020 --> 00:03:27,049
Speaker 1: But they attribute both the Odyssey and the Iliad, which

68
00:03:27,130 --> 00:03:31,389
Speaker 1: is kind of the prequel to the Odyssey, to Homer.

69
00:03:32,070 --> 00:03:33,750
Speaker 1: And they think that it was first written down, like

70
00:03:33,790 --> 00:03:37,460
Speaker 1: I said, in the 700s, the 8th century BCE. But

71
00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:41,820
Speaker 1: it was probably around way longer than that because the

72
00:03:41,860 --> 00:03:47,660
Speaker 1: whole thing is set up as a form of oral storytelling. Yeah.

73
00:03:47,780 --> 00:03:50,420
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, just you mentioned quickly that it

74
00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:53,630
Speaker 2: was sort of a sequel or the Iliad was a,

75
00:03:53,810 --> 00:03:54,530
Speaker 2: did you say prequel?

76
00:03:55,820 --> 00:03:56,430
Speaker 1: You bet I did.

77
00:03:58,170 --> 00:04:00,790
Speaker 2: Well, the Odyssey is 24 books, one book for each

78
00:04:00,810 --> 00:04:02,810
Speaker 2: letter of the Greek alphabet. But the Iliad that you

79
00:04:02,850 --> 00:04:07,340
Speaker 2: were talking about, um, talks about Agamemnon's return from the

80
00:04:07,420 --> 00:04:12,900
Speaker 2: Trojan war. And then the Odyssey basically covers Odysseus, uh,

81
00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:16,970
Speaker 2: his return from the very long delayed return from the

82
00:04:17,010 --> 00:04:20,610
Speaker 2: Trojan war. And what was your question that you asked

83
00:04:20,650 --> 00:04:21,750
Speaker 2: before I sidetracked us?

84
00:04:23,010 --> 00:04:26,390
Speaker 1: Do you remember? I asked you, uh, what, um, Christopher

85
00:04:26,450 --> 00:04:27,609
Speaker 1: Nolan movies you like.

86
00:04:28,630 --> 00:04:28,850
Speaker 3: Yes.

87
00:04:28,910 --> 00:04:29,890
Speaker 2: He said that right before.

88
00:04:29,930 --> 00:04:32,010
Speaker 1: That's the last question I remember asking you.

89
00:04:32,250 --> 00:04:35,580
Speaker 2: Oh, that's okay. Um, But I think I know what

90
00:04:35,620 --> 00:04:38,980
Speaker 2: you said. Something about it being an oral tradition that

91
00:04:39,020 --> 00:04:40,250
Speaker 2: was much older, right?

92
00:04:40,290 --> 00:04:40,550
Speaker 1: Yeah.

93
00:04:40,990 --> 00:04:41,190
Speaker 2: Yeah.

94
00:04:41,290 --> 00:04:42,270
Speaker 1: I must have said right.

95
00:04:42,750 --> 00:04:44,190
Speaker 2: That's right.

96
00:04:44,210 --> 00:04:46,270
Speaker 1: That was my question. Am I right?

97
00:04:46,290 --> 00:04:48,589
Speaker 2: I can't believe how good we are at this 18

98
00:04:48,589 --> 00:04:49,950
Speaker 2: years in.

99
00:04:49,950 --> 00:04:50,570
Speaker 1: 18 years in.

100
00:04:50,830 --> 00:04:53,410
Speaker 2: It astounds me sometimes. Masters.

101
00:04:53,750 --> 00:04:56,790
Speaker 1: I know. It's almost like we're both sleepwalking right now.

102
00:04:56,830 --> 00:04:57,549
Speaker 2: No, no, no. Not sleepwalking.

103
00:04:57,589 --> 00:04:58,120
Speaker 1: On the phone.

104
00:04:59,210 --> 00:05:03,520
Speaker 2: So we don't know how closely the Odyssey resembles the

105
00:05:03,580 --> 00:05:06,840
Speaker 2: story of That Homer told in 700s because you were right.

106
00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:08,000
Speaker 2: It was an oral.

107
00:05:09,380 --> 00:05:09,620
Speaker 3: Story.

108
00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:11,670
Speaker 2: It was an oral tradition and it was supposed to

109
00:05:11,690 --> 00:05:16,510
Speaker 2: be told by memorizing it and retelling it by, you know,

110
00:05:16,570 --> 00:05:19,410
Speaker 2: from bards telling the story to people in a crowd,

111
00:05:19,970 --> 00:05:23,589
Speaker 2: maybe changing a thing or two. You know, the idea

112
00:05:23,610 --> 00:05:26,390
Speaker 2: is that we it's pretty likely that this thing was

113
00:05:26,430 --> 00:05:29,349
Speaker 2: a little bit like a game of telephone, right? Yeah.

114
00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:31,800
Speaker 1: You know, like as you learned it and you passed

115
00:05:31,860 --> 00:05:34,599
Speaker 1: it on, you could kind of embellish it in this way.

116
00:05:34,620 --> 00:05:37,880
Speaker 1: You're like, I don't really care that much about the siren,

117
00:05:37,930 --> 00:05:39,770
Speaker 1: so I'm not going to give them as much play

118
00:05:39,830 --> 00:05:41,730
Speaker 1: as maybe the guy who taught you how to say

119
00:05:41,770 --> 00:05:46,590
Speaker 1: this did. And then it really started to take its

120
00:05:46,650 --> 00:05:50,250
Speaker 1: final shape again when it was finally put to papyrus.

121
00:05:50,330 --> 00:05:53,410
Speaker 1: I want to say pen to paper, but probably quill

122
00:05:53,470 --> 00:05:55,620
Speaker 1: to papyrus is how it was first done.

123
00:05:55,630 --> 00:05:57,090
Speaker 2: Right. Right. I love that.

124
00:05:57,490 --> 00:05:59,550
Speaker 1: That's when it really kind of started to take a

125
00:05:59,589 --> 00:06:02,290
Speaker 1: solid form because now it was like now you just

126
00:06:02,330 --> 00:06:03,350
Speaker 1: basically copied it.

127
00:06:03,350 --> 00:06:03,750
Speaker 2: Right.

128
00:06:03,770 --> 00:06:05,930
Speaker 1: You didn't have to memorize it or anything like that.

129
00:06:06,430 --> 00:06:11,740
Speaker 1: But it was far from the only like legend or

130
00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:15,890
Speaker 1: tale of like Greek culture and Greek heroics and like

131
00:06:15,950 --> 00:06:17,900
Speaker 1: Greek moral lessons and all that.

132
00:06:17,940 --> 00:06:18,120
Speaker 3: Right.

133
00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:20,520
Speaker 1: But it was just for some reason that I don't

134
00:06:20,540 --> 00:06:23,400
Speaker 1: think anyone's really put their finger on. It just has

135
00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:26,719
Speaker 1: resonated throughout the years. So it's the one. that we

136
00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:28,919
Speaker 1: tend to think of when we think of this whole stuff.

137
00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:32,160
Speaker 1: But it was a cornerstone of Greek culture. Like this

138
00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,680
Speaker 1: was just part of your indoctrination into growing up in

139
00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:39,380
Speaker 1: ancient Greek culture. You knew the Iliad among other things,

140
00:06:39,420 --> 00:06:42,620
Speaker 1: or the Odyssey, probably the Iliad too, among other things,

141
00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:45,440
Speaker 1: you'd at least heard it probably more than once. And

142
00:06:45,460 --> 00:06:47,850
Speaker 1: then finally Plato comes along and he's like, this is

143
00:06:47,910 --> 00:06:51,410
Speaker 1: all rubbish. We need to start using our noodles. So

144
00:06:52,010 --> 00:06:54,230
Speaker 1: he tried to actually ban the Odyssey and it didn't

145
00:06:54,250 --> 00:06:55,990
Speaker 1: take because people love it that much.

146
00:06:56,390 --> 00:07:00,529
Speaker 2: That's right. It lived on. You mentioned it was an

147
00:07:00,670 --> 00:07:04,190
Speaker 2: Ionic Greek, which is an Asiatic dialect, and it's been

148
00:07:04,230 --> 00:07:07,029
Speaker 2: gone for more than 2000 years. So if you're wondering

149
00:07:07,650 --> 00:07:10,510
Speaker 2: how we got to the point where Christopher Nolan is

150
00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:16,100
Speaker 2: working on a screenplay adapted from a 21st century novelized version,

151
00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,680
Speaker 2: I guess, it's sort of a winding road. The first

152
00:07:19,740 --> 00:07:23,880
Speaker 2: print copy came around in 1488, and it was produced

153
00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:29,430
Speaker 2: in Italy in that Ionic Greek. And then I guess

154
00:07:29,450 --> 00:07:31,410
Speaker 2: about 100 years later or so, or at least in

155
00:07:31,430 --> 00:07:36,550
Speaker 2: the next century, it was finally translated to some European languages,

156
00:07:37,110 --> 00:07:40,710
Speaker 2: some actual living languages. And then in 1616, we got

157
00:07:40,750 --> 00:07:44,660
Speaker 2: our first English translation of this epic poem from a

158
00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:47,480
Speaker 2: British poet named George Chapman.

159
00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:50,420
Speaker 1: That's a pretty British name if I've ever heard one.

160
00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:51,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.

161
00:07:52,020 --> 00:07:56,040
Speaker 1: So, yeah. So now it starts to come into our awareness,

162
00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:56,740
Speaker 1: our understanding.

163
00:07:57,190 --> 00:07:59,809
Speaker 2: And, you know, him translating it and then other people

164
00:07:59,870 --> 00:08:02,910
Speaker 2: translating it from the original, you know, we talked a

165
00:08:02,910 --> 00:08:05,790
Speaker 2: little bit about just the original oral translations. But when

166
00:08:05,830 --> 00:08:09,050
Speaker 2: you finally get to like written translations, it also took

167
00:08:09,150 --> 00:08:10,710
Speaker 2: a bit of a winding road, obviously.

168
00:08:11,210 --> 00:08:15,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, because the thing was written originally or created originally

169
00:08:15,620 --> 00:08:19,920
Speaker 1: to be spoken. And it actually follows a specific meter,

170
00:08:20,220 --> 00:08:22,400
Speaker 1: like the rhythm that you're supposed to say it in.

171
00:08:22,420 --> 00:08:27,780
Speaker 1: It's called Homeric hexameter. Or dactylic hexameter I've also seen.

172
00:08:27,820 --> 00:08:35,940
Speaker 1: In each line, there's six three-syllable units. And in these

173
00:08:36,020 --> 00:08:40,300
Speaker 1: three-syllable units, these dactyls, the first syllable is stressed and

174
00:08:40,330 --> 00:08:44,109
Speaker 1: then the next two are not stressed. So it's like, hi,

175
00:08:44,230 --> 00:08:50,590
Speaker 1: how are you doing today, guy? Right?

176
00:08:50,610 --> 00:08:51,809
Speaker 2: Do you have to sing it?

177
00:08:52,190 --> 00:08:55,920
Speaker 1: I actually saw a video of somebody not only reading

178
00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:58,800
Speaker 1: it in English, but reading it in Ionic. Oh, wow.

179
00:08:59,340 --> 00:08:59,560
Speaker 2: Yeah.

180
00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:02,380
Speaker 1: And I couldn't tell any difference from somebody just reading

181
00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:07,260
Speaker 1: it normally. But that's not something that literally translates very

182
00:09:07,300 --> 00:09:13,150
Speaker 1: well into other languages, including English. So the translators basically

183
00:09:13,190 --> 00:09:16,230
Speaker 1: had to make some big decisions, essentially.

184
00:09:16,250 --> 00:09:16,330
Speaker 3: Yeah.

185
00:09:16,580 --> 00:09:19,280
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, it's almost like translating the Bible, you know,

186
00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:21,420
Speaker 2: through the various translations of the Bible over the years.

187
00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:24,740
Speaker 2: There was, you know, each time someone's doing that, there

188
00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:27,020
Speaker 2: are writers that are doing that. So each version is

189
00:09:27,059 --> 00:09:28,100
Speaker 2: going to be a little bit different.

190
00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:29,220
Speaker 1: Right.

191
00:09:29,540 --> 00:09:32,100
Speaker 2: You know, a language, especially, you know, in the case

192
00:09:32,140 --> 00:09:33,680
Speaker 2: of a poem, it's going to have a unique rhythm.

193
00:09:33,730 --> 00:09:37,430
Speaker 2: But people's native tongue have unique rhythms as well. And

194
00:09:37,510 --> 00:09:41,309
Speaker 2: just where they're from, there are unique cultural experiences that happen.

195
00:09:42,190 --> 00:09:45,550
Speaker 2: Some of these translate better than others, I guess.

196
00:09:45,809 --> 00:09:45,989
Speaker 3: Yeah.

197
00:09:46,630 --> 00:09:51,380
Speaker 2: And so, you know, you're really, you know, you're not

198
00:09:51,540 --> 00:09:54,339
Speaker 2: rewriting in like, I don't think people made up like

199
00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:56,929
Speaker 2: a ton of stuff out of whole cloth, but making

200
00:09:56,970 --> 00:09:59,170
Speaker 2: it relevant for the audience that they're writing it for,

201
00:09:59,230 --> 00:10:01,900
Speaker 2: which would have been. in their language for the people

202
00:10:01,980 --> 00:10:04,699
Speaker 2: in their country because they wanted them to get something

203
00:10:04,780 --> 00:10:05,819
Speaker 2: out of it. Yes.

204
00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:06,480
Speaker 3: Yeah.

205
00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:10,160
Speaker 1: Most translators have ignored the there's a joke in one

206
00:10:10,179 --> 00:10:12,929
Speaker 1: of the books about laying with a goat and it

207
00:10:12,950 --> 00:10:15,350
Speaker 1: just does not translate well into modern times.

208
00:10:15,370 --> 00:10:17,600
Speaker 2: That's right. Got to leave that one behind. And the

209
00:10:17,620 --> 00:10:19,800
Speaker 2: other thing is, you know, there's a few things here.

210
00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:22,679
Speaker 2: You're translating from a dead language, which is a big deal.

211
00:10:23,980 --> 00:10:25,820
Speaker 2: We already mentioned that they were things meant to be

212
00:10:25,860 --> 00:10:28,480
Speaker 2: spoken aloud to something read, which is going to change it.

213
00:10:28,950 --> 00:10:31,690
Speaker 2: And then it's just something that's just thousands of years

214
00:10:31,850 --> 00:10:34,450
Speaker 2: old that you have to make sense. So it's a

215
00:10:34,570 --> 00:10:35,450
Speaker 2: it's a hard job.

216
00:10:36,170 --> 00:10:39,809
Speaker 1: Right. It's a hard knock life for translators of the Odyssey.

217
00:10:40,270 --> 00:10:41,849
Speaker 2: That's right. That's what Annie said.

218
00:10:42,870 --> 00:10:47,819
Speaker 1: So there there were some. There's some like standout translations

219
00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:50,300
Speaker 1: over the years, but the one that everyone's talking about

220
00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:54,739
Speaker 1: right now is from Emily Wilson. And she, I think,

221
00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:59,300
Speaker 1: did hers in 2017. Okay. 2017 is how most people

222
00:10:59,340 --> 00:10:59,740
Speaker 1: say that.

223
00:10:59,980 --> 00:11:00,140
Speaker 3: Right.

224
00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:07,230
Speaker 1: And she basically, she turned it into English heroic couplets,

225
00:11:07,250 --> 00:11:11,710
Speaker 1: which is basically a tea drinking way of saying like

226
00:11:12,250 --> 00:11:15,830
Speaker 1: exactly the kind of rhyming words pairs that you hear

227
00:11:15,850 --> 00:11:17,250
Speaker 1: in any modern song.

228
00:11:17,809 --> 00:11:19,929
Speaker 2: Yeah. And this is the one that Christopher Nolan used

229
00:11:19,970 --> 00:11:24,969
Speaker 2: specifically to adapt his version of the story on screen. Um,

230
00:11:25,770 --> 00:11:28,130
Speaker 2: I think we should probably talk a little bit about

231
00:11:28,230 --> 00:11:32,030
Speaker 2: the Homeric question because you, you teased earlier the, uh,

232
00:11:33,250 --> 00:11:35,250
Speaker 2: if Homer was really a person and that it's sort

233
00:11:35,270 --> 00:11:37,610
Speaker 2: of one of these things where, you know, we don't

234
00:11:37,650 --> 00:11:40,189
Speaker 2: have any hard facts when it comes to Homer, like

235
00:11:40,290 --> 00:11:44,819
Speaker 2: everything that we know, um, historians, literary historians have surmised

236
00:11:45,300 --> 00:11:48,640
Speaker 2: from reading the text? Like, well, it's written in this language,

237
00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:51,260
Speaker 2: so he's probably from this place that spoke that language.

238
00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:52,760
Speaker 2: Like stuff that makes sense, though.

239
00:11:54,220 --> 00:11:57,290
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, there's plenty of stuff that makes sense. It's

240
00:11:57,350 --> 00:12:01,070
Speaker 1: more just like a question of like, did he actually

241
00:12:01,130 --> 00:12:05,030
Speaker 1: exist if he was a bard, if he was a

242
00:12:05,090 --> 00:12:09,520
Speaker 1: group of people? It's very similar to the Shakespeare question, too,

243
00:12:09,540 --> 00:12:13,140
Speaker 1: we did an episode on. But there, I mean, just

244
00:12:13,340 --> 00:12:16,719
Speaker 1: even though everything is a guess that we've kind of

245
00:12:16,740 --> 00:12:21,500
Speaker 1: compiled from Homer, strictly from, I guess, his own writing.

246
00:12:21,580 --> 00:12:24,760
Speaker 1: I don't think he's referenced in any other, like, historical

247
00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:27,230
Speaker 1: text or anything like that. It's just the stuff he's

248
00:12:27,260 --> 00:12:29,610
Speaker 1: writing about just kind of lines up. And they think

249
00:12:29,650 --> 00:12:32,970
Speaker 1: that he was probably from Ionia, which is along the

250
00:12:33,050 --> 00:12:37,030
Speaker 1: west coast of Turkey today, because the whole thing was

251
00:12:37,050 --> 00:12:41,870
Speaker 1: written in Ionic. And... He almost certainly lived during this

252
00:12:42,070 --> 00:12:45,689
Speaker 1: age that they attribute it to. And they also are like,

253
00:12:45,830 --> 00:12:49,570
Speaker 1: it's possible that he might be a known historic blind

254
00:12:49,630 --> 00:12:54,390
Speaker 1: bard named Demoticus. Demoticus.

255
00:12:55,210 --> 00:12:55,410
Speaker 3: Yeah.

256
00:12:56,350 --> 00:12:59,710
Speaker 1: That's the hardest one, I think, out of this whole article.

257
00:13:00,070 --> 00:13:00,170
Speaker 3: Yeah.

258
00:13:00,210 --> 00:13:03,309
Speaker 2: I mean, that's a character in the Odyssey that like

259
00:13:03,429 --> 00:13:07,270
Speaker 2: a lot of space is devoted to. So I think

260
00:13:07,330 --> 00:13:09,140
Speaker 2: there are people who are like, I wonder if this

261
00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:11,020
Speaker 2: is just a stand in for him because, boy, there

262
00:13:11,059 --> 00:13:13,650
Speaker 2: is a lot of stuff in there about this, you know,

263
00:13:13,730 --> 00:13:15,390
Speaker 2: minor character. Right.

264
00:13:15,429 --> 00:13:19,189
Speaker 1: He's like, and let me sing the praises about Demodocus's cod.

265
00:13:19,530 --> 00:13:19,750
Speaker 2: Yeah.

266
00:13:20,370 --> 00:13:22,150
Speaker 1: There's just verse after verse about that.

267
00:13:22,470 --> 00:13:25,500
Speaker 2: A lot of stuff. So I also think we should

268
00:13:25,540 --> 00:13:29,200
Speaker 2: talk before we break about sort of a central concept

269
00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:31,540
Speaker 2: because in Act Two, everybody, we're going to give you

270
00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:33,480
Speaker 2: the CliffsNotes version of the Odyssey.

271
00:13:34,340 --> 00:13:34,540
Speaker 3: Yeah.

272
00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:35,540
Speaker 2: It's very exciting.

273
00:13:36,110 --> 00:13:36,850
Speaker 1: I'm very excited.

274
00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:39,970
Speaker 2: But we should a little bit more before we get

275
00:13:40,020 --> 00:13:43,590
Speaker 2: into that is sort of conceptually what the Odyssey was

276
00:13:43,610 --> 00:13:49,130
Speaker 2: about in a lot of ways was homecoming and hospitality,

277
00:13:49,950 --> 00:13:54,590
Speaker 2: which are Nostos and Xenia in ancient Greece. And these

278
00:13:54,670 --> 00:13:57,270
Speaker 2: two things were like really big deals in ancient Greece

279
00:13:57,309 --> 00:13:59,910
Speaker 2: that figured heavily in like their life and culture.

280
00:14:00,370 --> 00:14:03,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're not only like. things that you should do

281
00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:05,939
Speaker 1: to be like a good host. There are actual like

282
00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:09,420
Speaker 1: rules that you have to follow. And if you don't,

283
00:14:09,460 --> 00:14:12,870
Speaker 1: you're actually upsetting Zeus because this is Zeus, the king

284
00:14:12,890 --> 00:14:16,750
Speaker 1: of the gods, a real God's God, if you ask

285
00:14:16,809 --> 00:14:21,160
Speaker 1: other gods. This is his divine law that he's passed down.

286
00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:24,780
Speaker 1: That's how important these rules for treating guests are.

287
00:14:25,390 --> 00:14:30,110
Speaker 2: So, yeah, Xenia is a big deal. And the rules

288
00:14:30,150 --> 00:14:36,120
Speaker 2: specifically are if you happen to hop through town and

289
00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:39,020
Speaker 2: you knock on a stranger's door, they're supposed to say,

290
00:14:39,260 --> 00:14:41,560
Speaker 2: come on in. I don't need to know anything. Here's

291
00:14:41,580 --> 00:14:43,540
Speaker 2: some food. Here's some wine. Why don't you go? I'll

292
00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:45,900
Speaker 2: draw you a hot bath. Sure. And then we'll get

293
00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:49,400
Speaker 2: to why you're here. And also, while you're doing this stuff,

294
00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:51,830
Speaker 2: like maybe while you're in the bathtub, I'm going to

295
00:14:51,990 --> 00:14:53,950
Speaker 2: stand sentry out front with my sword and make sure

296
00:14:53,990 --> 00:14:54,870
Speaker 2: you stay nice and safe.

297
00:14:55,350 --> 00:14:58,150
Speaker 1: Yeah, you have to guarantee their protection while they're staying

298
00:14:58,210 --> 00:15:02,910
Speaker 1: at your home. Yeah, like a heaping helping of hospitality

299
00:15:02,970 --> 00:15:06,250
Speaker 1: is what you're supposed to offer a stranger, according to Xenia, right?

300
00:15:06,710 --> 00:15:07,030
Speaker 2: For sure.

301
00:15:07,970 --> 00:15:11,570
Speaker 1: That figures in so much to the story that essentially

302
00:15:12,190 --> 00:15:17,710
Speaker 1: entire groups and individuals are characterized by how they treat strangers,

303
00:15:17,770 --> 00:15:21,250
Speaker 1: how they act as guests, how they act as hosts.

304
00:15:21,700 --> 00:15:24,200
Speaker 1: Like this is a really important thread that goes through

305
00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:28,620
Speaker 1: all of the Odyssey. That's Xenia. Then there's also Nostos, right?

306
00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:31,980
Speaker 2: Yeah, homecoming. I mean, that's basically what the Odyssey is.

307
00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:35,450
Speaker 2: It's about somebody coming home. And this was a very

308
00:15:35,490 --> 00:15:38,550
Speaker 2: big deal in Greek society because they were seafarers. They

309
00:15:38,570 --> 00:15:43,890
Speaker 2: were adventurers and wanderers by sea. And so they would

310
00:15:44,070 --> 00:15:46,670
Speaker 2: go out a lot and coming home was a big deal.

311
00:15:46,730 --> 00:15:48,580
Speaker 2: They would be separated from their family. They would have

312
00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:53,540
Speaker 2: these brutal, you know, sea journeys. And so coming home

313
00:15:53,710 --> 00:15:56,170
Speaker 2: was a very big deal. And so it's no surprise

314
00:15:56,190 --> 00:15:58,650
Speaker 2: that these two sort of prominent things that figure in

315
00:15:58,670 --> 00:16:01,430
Speaker 2: Greek culture and society at the time were sort of

316
00:16:01,450 --> 00:16:03,630
Speaker 2: the two big themes of the Odyssey. Right.

317
00:16:04,370 --> 00:16:06,310
Speaker 1: If you're in high school and you have a crush

318
00:16:06,390 --> 00:16:10,600
Speaker 1: on somebody who likes to read the classics, just go

319
00:16:10,630 --> 00:16:12,030
Speaker 1: up to them and say, would you like to go

320
00:16:12,100 --> 00:16:15,300
Speaker 1: to Nostos with me? And they will, they'll be putty

321
00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:16,320
Speaker 1: in your hand after that.

322
00:16:17,890 --> 00:16:19,750
Speaker 2: That's great. I started Moby Dick, by the way, just

323
00:16:19,790 --> 00:16:22,070
Speaker 2: so everyone knows it's officially happening.

324
00:16:22,810 --> 00:16:24,970
Speaker 1: Awesome. How's it going so far?

325
00:16:25,410 --> 00:16:27,920
Speaker 2: Well, I read chapter one and then I watched that,

326
00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:32,560
Speaker 2: you know, I mentioned the Rob Delaney podcast that he's

327
00:16:32,580 --> 00:16:35,780
Speaker 2: doing with the professor. And so I'm going to do

328
00:16:35,820 --> 00:16:38,360
Speaker 2: that like in lockstep. So I did that and then

329
00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,320
Speaker 2: I watched their chapter one recap and it's helping a lot.

330
00:16:41,380 --> 00:16:42,350
Speaker 2: I like it so far.

331
00:16:42,370 --> 00:16:44,970
Speaker 1: That's awesome. Keep us posted, will you?

332
00:16:45,350 --> 00:16:46,870
Speaker 2: I will. So far, so good. Okay.

333
00:16:47,980 --> 00:16:51,820
Speaker 1: So that was, I think we covered Xenia and Nostros

334
00:16:51,860 --> 00:16:55,180
Speaker 1: pretty well. And that's probably a pretty good place to break, right?

335
00:16:55,580 --> 00:16:55,780
Speaker 3: Yeah.

336
00:16:56,020 --> 00:16:59,560
Speaker 2: And everyone, hold on your hats, because Act 2, we're

337
00:16:59,580 --> 00:17:02,280
Speaker 2: going to go over these books of the Odyssey.

338
00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:03,900
Speaker 1: Whoa, whoa, whoa.

339
00:17:21,450 --> 00:17:32,409
Speaker 3: Learning stuff with Joshua and Charles. Stuff you should know.

340
00:17:33,540 --> 00:17:37,260
Speaker 2: All right. I'm back with Josh. He's screwed his head

341
00:17:37,300 --> 00:17:40,840
Speaker 2: back onto his body. Cartoon style.

342
00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:43,100
Speaker 1: And if you don't know what Chuck's referring to, that

343
00:17:43,140 --> 00:17:44,459
Speaker 1: means we edited that thing out.

344
00:17:44,940 --> 00:17:47,100
Speaker 2: Oh, perhaps. You never know. But we're going to kind

345
00:17:47,140 --> 00:17:50,000
Speaker 2: of do, like I said, the CliffsNotes version of the Odyssey.

346
00:17:50,700 --> 00:17:53,530
Speaker 2: Spoilers will abound. If you haven't seen the film and

347
00:17:53,590 --> 00:17:55,690
Speaker 2: you really don't want to know anything about it, then

348
00:17:55,730 --> 00:17:58,010
Speaker 2: don't listen to this chapter. But, you know, I think

349
00:17:58,050 --> 00:17:59,729
Speaker 2: it might help going in to know a little bit

350
00:17:59,750 --> 00:18:02,389
Speaker 2: about the story if you really don't know anything. And

351
00:18:02,410 --> 00:18:08,570
Speaker 2: I'll also point out the actors who feature in and

352
00:18:08,930 --> 00:18:10,130
Speaker 2: who they play. How's that?

353
00:18:10,810 --> 00:18:13,390
Speaker 1: I think that's great. Can you also do their voices, maybe?

354
00:18:13,990 --> 00:18:15,300
Speaker 2: No, I can't do any of those voices.

355
00:18:15,540 --> 00:18:16,939
Speaker 1: You can do a great Matt Damon.

356
00:18:17,700 --> 00:18:18,639
Speaker 2: How about them apples?

357
00:18:18,660 --> 00:18:22,699
Speaker 1: There you go. Exactly. That actually sounded like Matthew McConaughey

358
00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:23,900
Speaker 1: trying to do a Matt Damon.

359
00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:25,219
Speaker 2: It sort of did.

360
00:18:26,140 --> 00:18:28,700
Speaker 1: All right. So let's get started, Chuck. We start with

361
00:18:28,770 --> 00:18:32,330
Speaker 1: book one. And actually, this kind of covers books one

362
00:18:32,390 --> 00:18:33,090
Speaker 1: through four.

363
00:18:33,450 --> 00:18:33,630
Speaker 2: Yeah.

364
00:18:33,990 --> 00:18:38,409
Speaker 1: And we find we start the Trojan War has ended

365
00:18:38,410 --> 00:18:42,369
Speaker 1: 10 years before. And the Trojan War itself has taken

366
00:18:42,369 --> 00:18:45,900
Speaker 1: 10 years. So it's been 20 years since our hero,

367
00:18:46,220 --> 00:18:48,140
Speaker 1: literally the hero of the story, Odysseus.

368
00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:48,840
Speaker 2: Matt Damon.

369
00:18:49,460 --> 00:18:53,060
Speaker 1: Yes. Which I'm not crazy about that casting. I'm sorry.

370
00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:55,800
Speaker 2: There's a lot of people upset about this casting.

371
00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:57,000
Speaker 3: Yes.

372
00:18:57,340 --> 00:18:59,679
Speaker 2: Not him, like all kinds of the casting. I know.

373
00:18:59,740 --> 00:19:02,919
Speaker 1: Everybody's like, Matt Damon's fine. So he's been gone for

374
00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:06,639
Speaker 1: 20 years. And from what I understand, this was initially

375
00:19:06,700 --> 00:19:11,010
Speaker 1: considered a fairly quick errand. The Trojan War started because

376
00:19:11,470 --> 00:19:17,290
Speaker 1: Paris stole Helen of Troy. And now I think everybody

377
00:19:17,330 --> 00:19:19,909
Speaker 1: kind of set out to get her back. And it

378
00:19:19,950 --> 00:19:21,890
Speaker 1: turned into this 10-year Trojan War.

379
00:19:22,530 --> 00:19:25,649
Speaker 2: That's right. Helen of Troy is played by Lupita Nyong'o

380
00:19:25,690 --> 00:19:29,400
Speaker 2: in this film. And Elon Musk is so mad about that.

381
00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,679
Speaker 2: He's going to make his own AI version that he

382
00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:37,139
Speaker 2: thinks is more historically accurate. That's what he said.

383
00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:39,380
Speaker 1: I heard about that. I'm waiting for its IPO.

384
00:19:39,980 --> 00:19:42,680
Speaker 2: I'm sure it's going to be great. So Matt Damon

385
00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:45,060
Speaker 2: is Odysseus. He's been gone for those 20 years, like

386
00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:47,730
Speaker 2: you said. He has a wife named Penelope, played by

387
00:19:47,770 --> 00:19:50,359
Speaker 2: Anne Hathaway in this film, and he has a son

388
00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:54,480
Speaker 2: called Telemachus, who's played by Tom Holland, who you might

389
00:19:54,540 --> 00:19:56,060
Speaker 2: know more as Spider-Man.

390
00:19:57,020 --> 00:19:57,160
Speaker 1: Yeah.

391
00:19:57,660 --> 00:19:59,340
Speaker 2: All right. So where we pick up with them, they

392
00:19:59,460 --> 00:20:04,119
Speaker 2: are living in their big house, their mini mansion. And

393
00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:07,820
Speaker 2: there are 100 suitors vying for Odysseus' throne and the

394
00:20:07,859 --> 00:20:09,639
Speaker 2: hand of Penelope to marry.

395
00:20:10,020 --> 00:20:10,760
Speaker 1: Yeah.

396
00:20:10,940 --> 00:20:15,610
Speaker 2: The most villainous in the film, at least, is Antonis,

397
00:20:15,810 --> 00:20:17,369
Speaker 2: played by Robert Pattinson.

398
00:20:17,790 --> 00:20:19,530
Speaker 1: I'll bet he does a great job.

399
00:20:19,869 --> 00:20:21,710
Speaker 2: He's great. The acting is really, really good in this

400
00:20:21,790 --> 00:20:24,850
Speaker 2: entire film. But these guys are all living there, kind

401
00:20:24,890 --> 00:20:27,670
Speaker 2: of really have made themselves at home, let's just say.

402
00:20:27,690 --> 00:20:27,770
Speaker 1: Yeah.

403
00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:31,640
Speaker 2: And not keeping up their end of the Xenia bargain,

404
00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:33,919
Speaker 2: which is, I don't even know if we mentioned, as

405
00:20:33,980 --> 00:20:36,380
Speaker 2: a guest, you're also supposed to be awesome in return.

406
00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:38,880
Speaker 1: And these guys are not. We left that out. It's

407
00:20:38,940 --> 00:20:40,840
Speaker 1: not just incumbent on the host.

408
00:20:41,100 --> 00:20:41,399
Speaker 2: That's right.

409
00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:43,820
Speaker 1: So, yeah, they're being pretty terrible. And one of the

410
00:20:44,020 --> 00:20:46,949
Speaker 1: main things they're doing as suitors, this whole hundred of

411
00:20:46,970 --> 00:20:52,350
Speaker 1: them who've taken over Odysseus' home, they're like really pressing

412
00:20:52,390 --> 00:20:54,930
Speaker 1: Penelope to be like, your husband's dead. It's been 20 years.

413
00:20:56,150 --> 00:20:58,169
Speaker 1: you need to choose a husband to sit on the

414
00:20:58,210 --> 00:21:01,210
Speaker 1: throne next to you and become king of Ithaca. Who

415
00:21:01,270 --> 00:21:04,030
Speaker 1: are you going to choose? And she keeps hemming and hawing,

416
00:21:04,450 --> 00:21:09,609
Speaker 1: hemming literally because she says that when she finishes the

417
00:21:09,690 --> 00:21:16,210
Speaker 1: funeral shroud that she's weaving for Odysseus's elderly father, Gary, She, um,

418
00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:19,940
Speaker 1: she will make this, this decision, right? And then every

419
00:21:20,020 --> 00:21:23,040
Speaker 1: night after she has woven all day, she goes and

420
00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:25,580
Speaker 1: undoes the weaving that she did that day so that

421
00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,959
Speaker 1: she will never finish. And this, I guess the suitors

422
00:21:29,020 --> 00:21:32,640
Speaker 1: are all idiots and it's working quite well because they

423
00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:34,520
Speaker 1: still haven't caught on, I guess.

424
00:21:35,260 --> 00:21:38,110
Speaker 2: You know, sometimes when we get emails that are like,

425
00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:42,470
Speaker 2: I can't believe Josh said that Odysseus' father's name was Gary.

426
00:21:43,250 --> 00:21:46,179
Speaker 2: Didn't he read it or do his research? I wonder

427
00:21:46,220 --> 00:21:48,140
Speaker 2: if people even know you.

428
00:21:49,140 --> 00:21:52,610
Speaker 1: I do, too. After 18 years, you know?

429
00:21:52,619 --> 00:21:58,710
Speaker 2: So barren, desert dry. Like, get with it, people. He

430
00:21:58,770 --> 00:21:59,690
Speaker 2: knows it's not Gary.

431
00:22:00,810 --> 00:22:03,090
Speaker 1: Chuck, I love how well you know me. Thanks, man.

432
00:22:04,170 --> 00:22:06,420
Speaker 2: I mean, you still fool me. So I guess I

433
00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:07,520
Speaker 2: shouldn't throw stones.

434
00:22:08,220 --> 00:22:13,560
Speaker 1: I'm going to take issue with that. There's probably... 98%

435
00:22:13,890 --> 00:22:16,909
Speaker 1: of the time, you're just like moving on. Not that

436
00:22:16,950 --> 00:22:19,520
Speaker 1: you don't think it's funny. Not that you don't get it.

437
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:23,100
Speaker 1: You're just like, we're burning up time here. That's enough

438
00:22:23,140 --> 00:22:25,380
Speaker 1: of your shenanigans. I'm just going to let that sit.

439
00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:26,120
Speaker 2: All right.

440
00:22:26,500 --> 00:22:27,020
Speaker 1: Thanks, Gary.

441
00:22:27,820 --> 00:22:34,460
Speaker 2: So Penelope and Telemachus are, you know, it's been 20 years.

442
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:37,859
Speaker 2: So they're also losing hope that dad and husband are gone.

443
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:38,240
Speaker 3: Sure.

444
00:22:38,380 --> 00:22:42,810
Speaker 2: Like for good. So Athena, played by Zendaya in the film,

445
00:22:43,650 --> 00:22:47,270
Speaker 2: the goddess of wisdom and warfare, she's on Odysseus' side

446
00:22:47,290 --> 00:22:50,790
Speaker 2: this whole time. She's like, hey, kid, why don't you

447
00:22:50,830 --> 00:22:52,970
Speaker 2: go out and actually do something and see if you

448
00:22:53,020 --> 00:22:55,100
Speaker 2: can find out if your dad's alive? That'd be a

449
00:22:55,100 --> 00:22:55,500
Speaker 2: good start.

450
00:22:56,560 --> 00:23:00,760
Speaker 1: I'm guessing Zendaya does a great job, or Zendaya.

451
00:23:01,660 --> 00:23:04,360
Speaker 2: Is it Zendaya? Yeah, she's awesome. She's a really good actor,

452
00:23:04,500 --> 00:23:05,100
Speaker 2: I think, in everything.

453
00:23:05,460 --> 00:23:07,870
Speaker 1: I read recently that people thought of her as like

454
00:23:07,900 --> 00:23:10,350
Speaker 1: a nepo baby or something like that. I don't know

455
00:23:10,390 --> 00:23:12,770
Speaker 1: where that's coming from. And I think she's really good

456
00:23:12,810 --> 00:23:13,990
Speaker 1: at everything I've ever seen her in.

457
00:23:14,010 --> 00:23:15,410
Speaker 2: Who are her parents? Are they famous?

458
00:23:15,430 --> 00:23:17,469
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know. I'll have to go

459
00:23:17,510 --> 00:23:20,020
Speaker 1: back and double check that. But I saw somebody reference it.

460
00:23:20,060 --> 00:23:22,060
Speaker 1: And I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about.

461
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 1: She's great.

462
00:23:23,020 --> 00:23:25,379
Speaker 2: Yeah, she's great. And she was also in Spider-Man, the movies.

463
00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:26,600
Speaker 2: So it's a reunion of sorts.

464
00:23:27,300 --> 00:23:27,540
Speaker 3: Yes.

465
00:23:27,900 --> 00:23:31,770
Speaker 1: And Benny, I can't remember. He's one of the creators

466
00:23:31,850 --> 00:23:33,250
Speaker 1: of Uncut Gems.

467
00:23:33,490 --> 00:23:34,030
Speaker 2: Benny Safdie.

468
00:23:34,390 --> 00:23:38,430
Speaker 1: Yes, he's in this movie. And he directed Robert Pattinson

469
00:23:38,550 --> 00:23:40,590
Speaker 1: in Good Time. That's right.

470
00:23:40,690 --> 00:23:42,730
Speaker 2: He plays, Benny Safdie plays Agamemnon.

471
00:23:43,230 --> 00:23:43,380
Speaker 3: Yeah.

472
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:45,220
Speaker 2: Man, look at all this.

473
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:45,680
Speaker 3: Yeah.

474
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:48,540
Speaker 1: Go ahead, though. I'm sorry for sidetracking us so badly.

475
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:51,139
Speaker 2: Oh, that's okay. So she says, why don't you go

476
00:23:51,180 --> 00:23:53,700
Speaker 2: out and see if your dad's still alive? He goes

477
00:23:53,740 --> 00:23:56,649
Speaker 2: and meets with John Bernthal from The Walking Dead, who

478
00:23:56,690 --> 00:24:01,310
Speaker 2: plays King Menelaus in Sparta. And from him learns, hey,

479
00:24:01,590 --> 00:24:05,390
Speaker 2: your dad's alive. He's sort of being held captive, but

480
00:24:05,950 --> 00:24:08,449
Speaker 2: in the best way he can be held captive on

481
00:24:08,550 --> 00:24:11,580
Speaker 2: Calypso's island. And that's where book five picks up.

482
00:24:11,859 --> 00:24:17,479
Speaker 1: Right. Calypso is a nymph, a goddess nymph, who has

483
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:21,750
Speaker 1: basically turned Odysseus into a sex toy after he washed

484
00:24:21,850 --> 00:24:24,830
Speaker 1: up on her island after a shipwreck, which we'll come

485
00:24:24,869 --> 00:24:28,300
Speaker 1: to later. That's another cool thing about the Odyssey. It's

486
00:24:28,380 --> 00:24:31,900
Speaker 1: not completely linear. It actually spins around. There's different, like

487
00:24:32,380 --> 00:24:35,040
Speaker 1: this entire part we're talking about is a flashback, as

488
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 1: we'll see.

489
00:24:35,540 --> 00:24:38,790
Speaker 2: Yeah, this starting with book five, yeah. Yes.

490
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,669
Speaker 1: Thank you. And so Calypso falls in love with Odysseus.

491
00:24:44,190 --> 00:24:47,450
Speaker 1: And she's like, don't forget, I'm a goddess nymph, not

492
00:24:47,490 --> 00:24:49,470
Speaker 1: just a nymph. So I can make you stay here.

493
00:24:49,510 --> 00:24:52,310
Speaker 1: And she does. She holds him captive there for, I think,

494
00:24:52,369 --> 00:24:56,219
Speaker 1: something like seven years. Yeah. And then finally, Athena, who

495
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,900
Speaker 1: has really chosen Odysseus as like one of her favorite

496
00:24:59,940 --> 00:25:04,470
Speaker 1: humans and really intervenes on his behalf throughout this whole,

497
00:25:05,710 --> 00:25:09,650
Speaker 1: I guess, odyssey. She goes to Zeus and is like,

498
00:25:09,670 --> 00:25:12,750
Speaker 1: you got to get this guy out of Calypso's clutches.

499
00:25:12,910 --> 00:25:15,430
Speaker 1: And Zeus is like, sure, I'll see what I can do.

500
00:25:15,970 --> 00:25:20,620
Speaker 2: That's right. Calypso, by the way, is played by Charlize Theron. So, again,

501
00:25:20,740 --> 00:25:23,369
Speaker 2: he was being held captive. as a sex slave for

502
00:25:23,410 --> 00:25:27,010
Speaker 2: seven years to Charlize Theron and still wants to leave.

503
00:25:28,790 --> 00:25:31,649
Speaker 1: He's like, my God, it's exhausted.

504
00:25:34,369 --> 00:25:37,090
Speaker 2: Uh, so he has resumed his journey home to Ithaca.

505
00:25:37,230 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 2: He leaves on a raft. Um, Poseidon, Poseidon is a

506
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,660
Speaker 2: real jerk throughout this whole story. Really doesn't like Odysseus.

507
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:47,100
Speaker 2: So he destroys, he plays Poseidon. So no one plays

508
00:25:47,140 --> 00:25:48,220
Speaker 2: Zeus or Poseidon in this.

509
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:49,879
Speaker 1: Oh, are they CGI?

510
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:50,820
Speaker 3: No, no, no.

511
00:25:50,859 --> 00:25:54,040
Speaker 2: They, they, he, bite your tongue, he uses very little CGI.

512
00:25:54,130 --> 00:25:56,859
Speaker 1: Yeah, I heard it's all practical effects, but I don't

513
00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 1: understand what you mean. They're just off screen?

514
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 2: They're not in the movie, like at all.

515
00:26:01,260 --> 00:26:02,200
Speaker 1: Okay, they're just referenced.

516
00:26:02,820 --> 00:26:03,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

517
00:26:03,619 --> 00:26:05,520
Speaker 1: Like Poseidon really did me dirty.

518
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:06,580
Speaker 3: Yeah. Okay.

519
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:11,859
Speaker 2: So Poseidon wrecks the raft as punishment because he blinded

520
00:26:12,500 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 2: his son, which was a cyclops. And we'll get to

521
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 2: that in a minute because that's coming by way of

522
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:24,400
Speaker 2: flashback a little bit later. And Odysseus is shipwrecked once

523
00:26:24,460 --> 00:26:27,020
Speaker 2: again and taken in by the, I guess, the Phaeacians.

524
00:26:28,220 --> 00:26:30,620
Speaker 2: And they are showing some serious Xenia. They are like

525
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:35,210
Speaker 2: great hosts to him. Say, come on into the royal court.

526
00:26:35,330 --> 00:26:37,929
Speaker 2: Here's everything you need in the way of food and

527
00:26:37,970 --> 00:26:38,830
Speaker 2: wine and protection.

528
00:26:39,150 --> 00:26:41,550
Speaker 1: Right. And the reason we said that book five starts

529
00:26:41,609 --> 00:26:45,160
Speaker 1: as a flashback because it's Odysseus is being really well

530
00:26:45,220 --> 00:26:47,640
Speaker 1: taken care of by the Phacians, and the Phacian king,

531
00:26:48,060 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 1: I guess one night while they're feasting, says, Hey, man,

532
00:26:50,859 --> 00:26:54,129
Speaker 1: tell us your story. What's going on with you, buddy?

533
00:26:54,869 --> 00:26:58,850
Speaker 1: And Odysseus basically tells the story of the Odyssey, everything

534
00:26:58,869 --> 00:27:03,210
Speaker 1: he's been through up to that point. And this is

535
00:27:03,369 --> 00:27:07,470
Speaker 1: kind of... I mean, this is the part where everybody's like,

536
00:27:07,710 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 1: when they talk about the Odyssey, this is the stuff

537
00:27:09,859 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 1: they're talking about, where he's recounting his adventures in flashback

538
00:27:14,380 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 1: to the Fascians.

539
00:27:15,780 --> 00:27:18,060
Speaker 2: That's right. And this is the real flashback. I guess,

540
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:20,460
Speaker 2: I mean, we sort of misspoke earlier, but I think

541
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 2: everyone gets it, right? Sure. Okay, great.

542
00:27:23,060 --> 00:27:26,379
Speaker 1: This is the part where Matt Damon goes, do-do-do, do-do-do, do-do-do.

543
00:27:28,130 --> 00:27:31,870
Speaker 2: So as soon as Odysseus leaves with his big fleet

544
00:27:31,890 --> 00:27:34,350
Speaker 2: of ships, there are about 600 soldiers. They're all headed

545
00:27:34,410 --> 00:27:39,940
Speaker 2: home from The war at Troy, once again. Athena sends

546
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:43,390
Speaker 2: some storms that way, veer the ships off course. Athena

547
00:27:43,430 --> 00:27:45,250
Speaker 2: is mad at this point about war crimes that they

548
00:27:45,270 --> 00:27:50,230
Speaker 2: committed in the battles when they conquered Troy. And they

549
00:27:50,290 --> 00:27:54,900
Speaker 2: landed initially at the land of the lotus eaters, which are,

550
00:27:55,140 --> 00:27:58,020
Speaker 2: you know, they're eating lotus. So they're very blissful and,

551
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,980
Speaker 2: you know, they're basically sort of doing drugs. And Odysseus'

552
00:28:02,020 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 2: crew is like, this place is awesome. Can we stay here?

553
00:28:04,530 --> 00:28:08,630
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was curious what that's an allegory for, what

554
00:28:08,690 --> 00:28:11,290
Speaker 1: drug or whatever, you know?

555
00:28:11,310 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess it was lotus at the time, right?

556
00:28:14,220 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 1: I guess, but I've tried lotus and it doesn't get

557
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 1: you messed up. Okay. But yes, this is what these

558
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,640
Speaker 1: people were doing. And Odysseus' crew was like, I'm not

559
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:25,140
Speaker 1: sure we need to keep going back home. Like, this

560
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,250
Speaker 1: is pretty great. These lotuses are amazing. The lotus eaters

561
00:28:28,330 --> 00:28:32,260
Speaker 1: are great people. Let's just stay here. Odysseus has to

562
00:28:32,380 --> 00:28:36,300
Speaker 1: drag every single one of his men, all 600 of them,

563
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 1: back to their ships where he ties them up until

564
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:41,240
Speaker 1: he finally gets the last one and is able to

565
00:28:41,290 --> 00:28:44,370
Speaker 1: set sail again from the land of the lotus eaters.

566
00:28:44,950 --> 00:28:47,890
Speaker 1: That is far and away the best experience that these

567
00:28:47,950 --> 00:28:53,130
Speaker 1: guys have on the Odyssey as a whole. Because the

568
00:28:53,190 --> 00:28:56,190
Speaker 1: next thing that happens to them is actually the turning

569
00:28:56,250 --> 00:29:00,650
Speaker 1: point that really brings on everything else. All of their misfortune,

570
00:29:01,340 --> 00:29:05,459
Speaker 1: they seem to have started. And then Odysseus really drives

571
00:29:05,500 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 1: it home on the island of the Cyclops.

572
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:15,230
Speaker 2: That's right. Obviously, one-eyed beasts, cannibalistic even. And they end

573
00:29:15,290 --> 00:29:17,770
Speaker 2: up trapped in a cave there. We mentioned Poseidon's son

574
00:29:17,810 --> 00:29:22,830
Speaker 2: is a Cyclops. That's Polyphemus. And he's just eating these guys.

575
00:29:23,330 --> 00:29:26,450
Speaker 2: If you see the movie, this is an actual puppet.

576
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 2: It is not CGI, which is incredible.

577
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:29,820
Speaker 3: Oh really?

578
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 2: Because it looks amazing, yeah.

579
00:29:31,620 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 1: I'll bet.

580
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:36,410
Speaker 2: And Odysseus blinds Polyphemus to get everyone out of there,

581
00:29:36,950 --> 00:29:39,330
Speaker 2: out of the cave, and they are able to flee

582
00:29:39,370 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 2: the Cyclops and then suffer another attack by a tribe

583
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 2: of giant cannibals called.

584
00:29:47,700 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 1: The Laestrygonians.

585
00:29:49,980 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, nice work.

586
00:29:51,380 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 1: So I just want to go back to, is it

587
00:29:54,100 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 1: Polyphemus or Polyphemus?

588
00:29:57,220 --> 00:29:58,180
Speaker 2: I would say Polyphemus.

589
00:29:58,200 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 3: Okay.

590
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,450
Speaker 1: Okay. So, like you said, he's the son of Poseidon.

591
00:30:01,970 --> 00:30:04,459
Speaker 1: I read that Odysseus and his men came onto the

592
00:30:04,580 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 1: island of the Cyclops and just started eating all of Polyphemus'

593
00:30:08,380 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 1: sheep and basically made terrible guests of themselves. Is that

594
00:30:12,380 --> 00:30:12,900
Speaker 1: not correct?

595
00:30:14,110 --> 00:30:16,490
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know if that's in the movie. I

596
00:30:16,510 --> 00:30:17,030
Speaker 2: can't remember.

597
00:30:17,290 --> 00:30:21,330
Speaker 1: Okay. But either way, I read that it wasn't just

598
00:30:21,390 --> 00:30:25,260
Speaker 1: completely one-sided, that Polyphemus was wronged first. At any rate...

599
00:30:26,180 --> 00:30:31,460
Speaker 1: After they escaped the Lestrigonians, which is another tribe of giants,

600
00:30:31,550 --> 00:30:33,590
Speaker 1: but I believe they're more human-like, right?

601
00:30:34,810 --> 00:30:37,430
Speaker 2: They're not in the movie either. Okay. Everything I know

602
00:30:37,450 --> 00:30:39,470
Speaker 2: about the Odyssey, I know from a little research and

603
00:30:39,510 --> 00:30:40,310
Speaker 2: then seeing that movie.

604
00:30:40,490 --> 00:30:43,950
Speaker 1: Okay, gotcha. So in the book, the Lestrigonians, they come

605
00:30:43,990 --> 00:30:48,890
Speaker 1: right after the Cyclops, and they're another tribe of giant cannibals.

606
00:30:48,990 --> 00:30:51,950
Speaker 1: But from what I saw, they're more human-like. They're like soldiers,

607
00:30:51,990 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 1: but giant. They eat a bunch of guys. And after that,

608
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 1: there's the shipwreck. And the reason why there's the shipwreck

609
00:31:01,020 --> 00:31:05,500
Speaker 1: is because Polyphemus, son of Poseidon, prays to his father

610
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:09,510
Speaker 1: and says, please mess Odysseus' junk up.

611
00:31:10,730 --> 00:31:13,950
Speaker 2: That's right. And so they end up on the island

612
00:31:14,250 --> 00:31:17,810
Speaker 2: of Circe, who was a goddess, sort of enchantress, sort

613
00:31:17,830 --> 00:31:19,510
Speaker 2: of portrayed like, sort of witch-like.

614
00:31:19,610 --> 00:31:19,850
Speaker 3: Yeah.

615
00:31:20,570 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 2: And she falls in love with Odysseus. Um, she turns

616
00:31:24,060 --> 00:31:27,860
Speaker 2: the guys, his, his dudes into pigs and Odysseus gets

617
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 2: a little help from the gods and forces her to

618
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 2: turn them back into men so they can get on

619
00:31:31,380 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 2: with stuff.

620
00:31:32,270 --> 00:31:32,380
Speaker 3: Yeah.

621
00:31:32,420 --> 00:31:34,690
Speaker 1: I saw, I've read that that was like the coolest,

622
00:31:35,050 --> 00:31:37,530
Speaker 1: most disturbing scene in the whole movie. Is that right?

623
00:31:38,710 --> 00:31:39,850
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know. It was great.

624
00:31:40,260 --> 00:31:45,420
Speaker 1: Okay, so Odysseus ends up getting kind of hooked up

625
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:49,430
Speaker 1: by Circe, who basically says, head on to the land

626
00:31:49,470 --> 00:31:50,910
Speaker 1: of the dead, because you're going to get a lot

627
00:31:50,950 --> 00:31:55,010
Speaker 1: of important, valuable information there. He meets Agamemnon there, who

628
00:31:55,070 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 1: was killed in the Iliad, and he meets his mom there,

629
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,420
Speaker 1: which is nice. And then, most importantly, he meets Tiresias,

630
00:32:03,460 --> 00:32:06,500
Speaker 1: who is a prophet of Apollo, who, as a side note,

631
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 1: became a woman for seven years, which is kind of interesting.

632
00:32:10,100 --> 00:32:14,530
Speaker 1: And then Tiresias basically says, you really need to make

633
00:32:14,590 --> 00:32:17,390
Speaker 1: an offer to Poseidon, some sort of sacrifice or something,

634
00:32:17,410 --> 00:32:21,110
Speaker 1: because he's really mad that you blinded Polyphemus, his son,

635
00:32:21,130 --> 00:32:25,330
Speaker 1: the Cyclops. And one other thing, this is very important.

636
00:32:25,690 --> 00:32:29,630
Speaker 1: Do not let anyone eat the sun god's sacred cattle

637
00:32:30,010 --> 00:32:32,410
Speaker 1: on the island of Helios. You're going to end up

638
00:32:32,490 --> 00:32:35,410
Speaker 1: on Helios, by the way. I'm a prophet, so I know.

639
00:32:36,010 --> 00:32:36,190
Speaker 3: Yeah.

640
00:32:36,620 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 2: So he says, all right, check. Do not eat sacred cattle.

641
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 2: Got it. So before going on to Ithaca, Odysseus goes

642
00:32:45,060 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 2: back to Circe's island. She's like, I'm going to hook

643
00:32:48,460 --> 00:32:50,709
Speaker 2: you up even further. Here's some beeswax because you're not

644
00:32:50,770 --> 00:32:52,190
Speaker 2: going to want to hear that siren song.

645
00:32:52,350 --> 00:32:53,070
Speaker 1: Sure.

646
00:32:53,110 --> 00:32:58,530
Speaker 2: Protect all your guys. You need to steer towards Scylla because,

647
00:32:58,550 --> 00:33:00,590
Speaker 2: as we'll see, there's a very narrow sort of passage

648
00:33:00,610 --> 00:33:01,390
Speaker 2: that's very fraught.

649
00:33:01,670 --> 00:33:01,870
Speaker 3: Yeah.

650
00:33:02,050 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 2: And she says, go towards Scylla and not Charybdis because

651
00:33:07,060 --> 00:33:09,900
Speaker 2: that's the bad way. Mm-hmm. And also, by the way,

652
00:33:09,930 --> 00:33:12,210
Speaker 2: I don't know if anyone's mentioned this, but man, do

653
00:33:12,270 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 2: not eat any of that guy's cattle.

654
00:33:15,020 --> 00:33:18,740
Speaker 1: So now the second person to mention this, which suggests

655
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:21,610
Speaker 1: strongly that they are definitely going to eat the cattle.

656
00:33:22,130 --> 00:33:22,590
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.

657
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 1: So after leaving Circe's island and setting sail, remember, every

658
00:33:27,860 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 1: time they set sail, they're going toward home, toward Ithaca.

659
00:33:31,420 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 1: They just keep getting delayed and shipwrecked. And Poseidon's really

660
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 1: messing with them as per Polyphemus's request. The next challenge

661
00:33:40,550 --> 00:33:43,590
Speaker 1: that they go to is the Sirens, which is why Circe's,

662
00:33:43,610 --> 00:33:47,930
Speaker 1: like you said, gave Odysseus earwax. And Odysseus is like,

663
00:33:48,010 --> 00:33:49,910
Speaker 1: I got to see what all this is about. So

664
00:33:49,950 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 1: he gives the earwax to all of his men. And says,

665
00:33:54,110 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 1: lash me to the mast. I want to hear it.

666
00:33:57,090 --> 00:34:00,130
Speaker 1: But no matter what I say, while I'm under the

667
00:34:00,170 --> 00:34:03,610
Speaker 1: spell of the siren song, do not untie me. And

668
00:34:03,730 --> 00:34:05,070
Speaker 1: apparently it works out pretty great.

669
00:34:05,790 --> 00:34:11,180
Speaker 2: Yeah. He makes it through that. They all survive. And

670
00:34:11,219 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 2: then they reach that strait that Cersei had warned him about,

671
00:34:14,780 --> 00:34:20,259
Speaker 2: which has monsters on both sides. That's Scylla and Charybdis.

672
00:34:21,390 --> 00:34:23,549
Speaker 2: On the Scylla side, you've got a six-headed beast who

673
00:34:23,969 --> 00:34:26,319
Speaker 2: is going to eat you. On the Charybdis side, you're

674
00:34:26,340 --> 00:34:30,100
Speaker 2: going to encounter some massive whirlpools that will destroy your

675
00:34:30,140 --> 00:34:32,960
Speaker 2: ship like it's going down a toilet. And so Odysseus

676
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:35,980
Speaker 2: is like, all right, she said to steer, to avoid

677
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:40,160
Speaker 2: that whirlpool and steer toward that monster, toward Scylla. And

678
00:34:40,180 --> 00:34:42,070
Speaker 2: they do that, and the monster eats a lot of

679
00:34:42,110 --> 00:34:45,469
Speaker 2: those guys. But Odysseus managed to escape with all but

680
00:34:45,550 --> 00:34:47,430
Speaker 2: I think like six guys that get eaten.

681
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:49,800
Speaker 1: Right, which is a pretty good trade-off. It's like a

682
00:34:49,940 --> 00:34:52,940
Speaker 1: utilitarian lesser of two evils, right? Lose the whole ship

683
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 1: to the Whirlpool or lose six guys to Scylla. It's

684
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 1: a pretty smart move, honestly. And if you're like, wow,

685
00:34:59,780 --> 00:35:03,140
Speaker 1: he really didn't have a good option, that's because caught

686
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:06,939
Speaker 1: between Scylla and Charybdis is the original version of caught

687
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:08,859
Speaker 1: between a rock and a hard place. That's where that

688
00:35:08,930 --> 00:35:09,390
Speaker 1: came from.

689
00:35:10,010 --> 00:35:14,430
Speaker 2: That's right. So they eventually land at Helios. The sacred

690
00:35:14,469 --> 00:35:18,690
Speaker 2: cattle are everywhere. They've gotten the two warnings by now. And,

691
00:35:18,730 --> 00:35:22,710
Speaker 2: of course, like Josh said, Odysseus' men eat that cattle

692
00:35:22,910 --> 00:35:27,359
Speaker 2: pretty quickly. And more divine punishment is wrought upon them.

693
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 2: And Zeus, because Helios is like, you've got to do

694
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:32,900
Speaker 2: something here, Zeus. Zeus destroys the ship when it departs

695
00:35:32,940 --> 00:35:35,480
Speaker 2: the island. And at this point now, Odysseus is the

696
00:35:35,580 --> 00:35:40,339
Speaker 2: only one still living. And he washes ashore to meet Calypso.

697
00:35:40,500 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 2: And that is where the flashback ends.

698
00:35:42,620 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 1: Right. And then so let's go take a break and

699
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 1: we're going to come back and wrap up the Odyssey

700
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:51,950
Speaker 1: and talk a little more about what it means for everybody.

701
00:35:51,969 --> 00:35:53,430
Speaker 2: All right. We'll be right back.

702
00:36:10,700 --> 00:36:20,090
Speaker 3: Learning stuff with Joshua and Charles. Stuff you should.

703
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,700
Speaker 1: Okay, Chuck, now we're at book 12. The last 12

704
00:36:25,700 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 1: books are about his homecoming, his nostos, which shares the

705
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:31,920
Speaker 1: root with nostalgia. And like you said, the Fascians are

706
00:36:32,020 --> 00:36:36,420
Speaker 1: excellent hosts. So they get him directly to Ithaca, finally

707
00:36:36,460 --> 00:36:39,140
Speaker 1: get him home. But his homecoming is not just him

708
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,620
Speaker 1: showing up and everything's great. Like his kingdom has fallen

709
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:46,379
Speaker 1: to shreds. In the 20 years that he's been gone,

710
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 1: Penelope's been doing everything she can to hold it all together,

711
00:36:49,500 --> 00:36:51,660
Speaker 1: but she can only do so much. So he's got

712
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:54,799
Speaker 1: to disguise himself, which he does as a beggar, to

713
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:57,050
Speaker 1: kind of get the lay of the land to figure

714
00:36:57,150 --> 00:36:58,870
Speaker 1: out how to put things right again.

715
00:36:58,890 --> 00:37:03,069
Speaker 2: That's right. So in disguise, only his old dog and

716
00:37:03,110 --> 00:37:08,069
Speaker 2: his childhood nurse, played by John Leguizamo, recognize him. But,

717
00:37:08,350 --> 00:37:09,650
Speaker 2: you know, he doesn't sell him out. He keeps it

718
00:37:09,690 --> 00:37:13,320
Speaker 2: a secret. And he is being mistreated at the palace

719
00:37:13,380 --> 00:37:15,940
Speaker 2: by the suitors, of course, who I think we've established

720
00:37:16,020 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 2: are big jerks.

721
00:37:16,820 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 1: Sure.

722
00:37:19,060 --> 00:37:22,180
Speaker 2: Telemachus returns from his journey and he's like, all right,

723
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:25,819
Speaker 2: this is my son. He's a grown up Spider-Man now.

724
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 2: And when I left him, he was just a little kid.

725
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:30,940
Speaker 2: And so I got to like at least meet this

726
00:37:31,020 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 2: guy and reveal myself to him. And he does that.

727
00:37:34,219 --> 00:37:36,140
Speaker 2: So he reveals himself to his son at least.

728
00:37:37,110 --> 00:37:40,920
Speaker 1: He does. And his son's like, great, let's figure out

729
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,740
Speaker 1: how to get the house back, right? And your kingdom

730
00:37:44,780 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 1: and everything. So they get together and start planning how

731
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:51,240
Speaker 1: to get everything back. And meanwhile, Penelope's finally like, okay,

732
00:37:51,300 --> 00:37:55,870
Speaker 1: my husband is dead. And I'm going to hold a

733
00:37:56,850 --> 00:37:59,270
Speaker 1: contest for all of you suitors. Whoever can shoot an

734
00:37:59,390 --> 00:38:02,950
Speaker 1: arrow through 12 axe heads in a row, which only

735
00:38:03,010 --> 00:38:05,529
Speaker 1: Odysseus has been able to do, whoever can do that,

736
00:38:06,290 --> 00:38:08,770
Speaker 1: I will marry. And so they hold a contest, or

737
00:38:08,810 --> 00:38:11,590
Speaker 1: she does, and every single one of the hundred suitors misses.

738
00:38:12,180 --> 00:38:15,239
Speaker 1: Can't do it. Then Odysseus is the beggar, is like,

739
00:38:15,300 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 1: can I have my try? And she allows it. And

740
00:38:18,700 --> 00:38:21,799
Speaker 1: he successfully shoots the arrow through the 12 axe heads.

741
00:38:22,500 --> 00:38:25,830
Speaker 1: And she knows that that's Odysseus, but she still has

742
00:38:25,890 --> 00:38:26,690
Speaker 1: a test for him.

743
00:38:27,370 --> 00:38:30,210
Speaker 2: That's right. Well, before that, though, the big part of

744
00:38:30,270 --> 00:38:34,239
Speaker 2: that is being able to string that bow. Because apparently

745
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:38,259
Speaker 2: it's just some bow that's so powerful that no one

746
00:38:38,300 --> 00:38:39,950
Speaker 2: has ever been able to even string it.

747
00:38:40,210 --> 00:38:40,450
Speaker 3: Wow.

748
00:38:41,150 --> 00:38:45,310
Speaker 2: So Odysseus, of course, once he strings that thing, everyone's like, oh,

749
00:38:45,630 --> 00:38:48,610
Speaker 2: is that the dude? Okay. And then the shooting the

750
00:38:48,670 --> 00:38:50,469
Speaker 2: arrow through is almost like the cherry on top.

751
00:38:50,630 --> 00:38:51,390
Speaker 1: Gotcha. Okay.

752
00:38:51,550 --> 00:38:51,720
Speaker 2: Yeah.

753
00:38:52,300 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 1: And then, of course, the suitors are like, well, if

754
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:57,200
Speaker 1: they suspect who he is or now they know who

755
00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:00,739
Speaker 1: he is, a huge battle takes place with Odysseus and Telemachus.

756
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 1: vanquishing is probably the best word for it. All hundred suitors, right?

757
00:39:05,260 --> 00:39:07,220
Speaker 1: And I'm sure it's very satisfying to see them all

758
00:39:07,260 --> 00:39:07,910
Speaker 1: get their due.

759
00:39:08,550 --> 00:39:11,690
Speaker 2: Yeah, they get their due. And after the battle, Penelope,

760
00:39:11,770 --> 00:39:14,190
Speaker 2: who is at this point, she's like, I think that

761
00:39:14,250 --> 00:39:17,850
Speaker 2: might be my guy. Like, first of all, he looks

762
00:39:17,890 --> 00:39:18,410
Speaker 2: just like him.

763
00:39:18,630 --> 00:39:18,830
Speaker 1: Right.

764
00:39:20,110 --> 00:39:21,790
Speaker 2: And second of all, he could string that bow and

765
00:39:21,830 --> 00:39:23,490
Speaker 2: no one else could. And then he made that shot.

766
00:39:23,570 --> 00:39:25,790
Speaker 2: So it's just one of those things where you have

767
00:39:25,810 --> 00:39:28,190
Speaker 2: to suspend disbelief a little bit. It's an ancient text.

768
00:39:29,790 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 2: You know, Because you would think as soon as her

769
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:33,240
Speaker 2: husband walks through the door, he'd be like, honey, I'm home.

770
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:36,430
Speaker 2: And she's like, oh my God, it's you. But she

771
00:39:36,489 --> 00:39:39,810
Speaker 2: suspects that it's him and confirms it in this way.

772
00:39:40,330 --> 00:39:43,230
Speaker 2: In front of Odysseus, she's asked for a servant to

773
00:39:43,350 --> 00:39:45,430
Speaker 2: move their marital bed. Like, hey, can you move this

774
00:39:45,489 --> 00:39:48,910
Speaker 2: over here? I'm doing a little redecorating. And Odysseus knows,

775
00:39:48,969 --> 00:39:51,460
Speaker 2: he was like, You can't move that thing. I carved

776
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:54,799
Speaker 2: that bed from a still live olive tree. So that

777
00:39:54,830 --> 00:39:57,569
Speaker 2: thing is still like literally rooted to the ground. And

778
00:39:57,630 --> 00:39:59,690
Speaker 2: I know that it can't be moved. And she's like,

779
00:39:59,950 --> 00:40:00,950
Speaker 2: it is him. Yeah.

780
00:40:01,890 --> 00:40:05,230
Speaker 1: And so they get back together. It's very sweet, I'm sure.

781
00:40:06,670 --> 00:40:11,669
Speaker 1: Telemachus is there. Everything's going really great. Then a civil

782
00:40:11,710 --> 00:40:15,239
Speaker 1: war breaks out among the Souter's families, who many of

783
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:18,420
Speaker 1: them are ready to avenge the death of their family members.

784
00:40:19,090 --> 00:40:21,660
Speaker 1: And before things can get really out of hand, Athena,

785
00:40:21,739 --> 00:40:23,920
Speaker 1: who's also the goddess of war in addition to wisdom,

786
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:27,100
Speaker 1: steps in and says, stop this war. That's enough war

787
00:40:27,180 --> 00:40:31,200
Speaker 1: for now. And everybody lays down their arms and Odysseus

788
00:40:31,580 --> 00:40:34,299
Speaker 1: is finally home and things are back to normal. It's

789
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,739
Speaker 1: like the end of a Brady Bunch episode. Everything's just

790
00:40:37,780 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 1: back to normal.

791
00:40:39,580 --> 00:40:42,100
Speaker 2: That's right. Except Cousin Oliver's there. So everyone's kind of

792
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:45,060
Speaker 2: wondering where he came from. So we should probably talk

793
00:40:45,100 --> 00:40:46,180
Speaker 2: a little bit more about.

794
00:40:47,950 --> 00:40:52,069
Speaker 2: Just the history, because I wondered after I saw it, because, again,

795
00:40:52,110 --> 00:40:53,609
Speaker 2: I hadn't studied this, so I didn't know a lot

796
00:40:53,650 --> 00:40:55,509
Speaker 2: about it. I was like, I mean, what about like

797
00:40:55,610 --> 00:40:58,150
Speaker 2: was any of this true? Was there a sort of

798
00:40:58,190 --> 00:41:00,890
Speaker 2: stand in for Odysseus? And was there even a Trojan

799
00:41:01,010 --> 00:41:03,589
Speaker 2: War and all this stuff? And it turns out like

800
00:41:03,730 --> 00:41:04,469
Speaker 2: probably not. Right.

801
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:08,600
Speaker 1: Well, they do think that there is probably a Trojan War.

802
00:41:08,660 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 1: They do think that they've kind of identified Troy. Now,

803
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 1: it's a town that's called Hizarlik. There's a mountain nearby

804
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:21,859
Speaker 1: called that Hizarlik. And they're like, we're pretty sure this

805
00:41:21,940 --> 00:41:24,940
Speaker 1: is the actual Troy that was originally discovered in the

806
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:29,259
Speaker 1: 19th century by Heinrich Schliemann. And it shows evidence of

807
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:31,969
Speaker 1: having been burned and rebuilt time after time after time.

808
00:41:32,230 --> 00:41:36,129
Speaker 1: But there's one layer, layer seven, That they're like, this

809
00:41:36,190 --> 00:41:40,500
Speaker 1: coincides with Homer's time. And they found some things like

810
00:41:40,540 --> 00:41:42,620
Speaker 1: they found a pile of rocks that they think is

811
00:41:42,660 --> 00:41:46,980
Speaker 1: slingshot ammunition outside of the city. And they're like, evidence

812
00:41:47,020 --> 00:41:50,980
Speaker 1: of war. So historians seem to think that this is

813
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 1: probably Troy. And it conceivably gives some backup to the

814
00:41:57,280 --> 00:41:59,469
Speaker 1: idea that there was a Trojan War and it did

815
00:41:59,510 --> 00:42:01,830
Speaker 1: take place during Homer's time. Right.

816
00:42:02,390 --> 00:42:04,549
Speaker 2: Whether or not there was a Trojan horse, there have

817
00:42:04,570 --> 00:42:08,870
Speaker 2: been some archaeological finds that were pre-Odyssey that depicted men

818
00:42:09,090 --> 00:42:11,109
Speaker 2: climbing out of a giant wheeled horse. So you might

819
00:42:11,130 --> 00:42:12,430
Speaker 2: think like, boom, of course there was.

820
00:42:12,450 --> 00:42:13,310
Speaker 1: Yeah.

821
00:42:13,410 --> 00:42:15,410
Speaker 2: But a lot of people think it was probably like

822
00:42:15,469 --> 00:42:20,970
Speaker 2: symbolic or maybe a metaphor that Homer adapted. There are

823
00:42:20,989 --> 00:42:24,940
Speaker 2: definitely routes and paths that they sail that are, you know,

824
00:42:24,980 --> 00:42:28,930
Speaker 2: historically accurate throughout the Mediterranean Sea. Right. although they don't

825
00:42:28,950 --> 00:42:31,770
Speaker 2: know the exact path and if that's a real thing.

826
00:42:32,790 --> 00:42:34,790
Speaker 2: But they think that a lot of the stuff, like

827
00:42:34,830 --> 00:42:42,140
Speaker 2: the monsters, may be, again, symbolic about seafaring things that

828
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:46,340
Speaker 2: you had to navigate around, basically. Like Scylla and Charybdis

829
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:50,879
Speaker 2: are the opposing currents of the Strait of Messina, or

830
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:54,739
Speaker 2: the Sirens are maybe the shoals along the Mediterranean that

831
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:55,279
Speaker 2: are dangerous.

832
00:42:55,810 --> 00:43:01,089
Speaker 1: Right. Somebody pointed to Mount Etna on Sicily as the Cyclops,

833
00:43:01,450 --> 00:43:05,030
Speaker 1: one-eyed Cyclops, which was really destructive. Sure it does. It

834
00:43:05,070 --> 00:43:07,989
Speaker 1: seems like a stretch to me. But the idea that

835
00:43:08,030 --> 00:43:12,670
Speaker 1: these are metaphors for navigating conditions that you have to

836
00:43:12,710 --> 00:43:15,490
Speaker 1: look out for makes a lot of sense because these

837
00:43:15,570 --> 00:43:19,030
Speaker 1: stories were told by seafaring people. So that definitely holds

838
00:43:19,090 --> 00:43:20,140
Speaker 1: a lot of weight for sure.

839
00:43:20,860 --> 00:43:21,060
Speaker 3: Yeah.

840
00:43:21,780 --> 00:43:23,700
Speaker 2: So my initial question is like, why is this thing

841
00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:27,009
Speaker 2: still interesting? people and it's you know, it's because the

842
00:43:27,030 --> 00:43:31,360
Speaker 2: story like it is a truly timeless story because and

843
00:43:31,380 --> 00:43:33,759
Speaker 2: it has a lot of Universal appeal because it's it's

844
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:36,239
Speaker 2: about homecoming and everyone can identify with that kind of

845
00:43:36,260 --> 00:43:40,719
Speaker 2: thing at one point You know a hero struggle. That's

846
00:43:40,739 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 2: certainly nothing new like that's still a thing and you know,

847
00:43:44,060 --> 00:43:48,260
Speaker 2: almost every movie You know, there's coming of age there's

848
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:53,950
Speaker 2: there's regret there's adventure Uh, there's family, there's, there's good

849
00:43:53,989 --> 00:43:55,870
Speaker 2: guys and bad guys. It's like a lot of just

850
00:43:55,910 --> 00:43:59,430
Speaker 2: the tenants of great movie making, uh, are just kind

851
00:43:59,450 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 2: of right there in black and white, or I guess

852
00:44:02,140 --> 00:44:05,060
Speaker 2: papyrus and whatever color they printed, uh, ink with.

853
00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:05,439
Speaker 3: Right.

854
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:08,320
Speaker 1: And I think it also goes to show like it

855
00:44:08,420 --> 00:44:12,140
Speaker 1: touches on values that are so universal, at least, you know,

856
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:16,180
Speaker 1: to Western eyes and ears that they, we still hold

857
00:44:16,219 --> 00:44:18,890
Speaker 1: those same values today. They still make sense to us.

858
00:44:18,930 --> 00:44:20,330
Speaker 1: They don't seem totally foreign.

859
00:44:20,969 --> 00:44:22,190
Speaker 2: Yeah. Exactly.

860
00:44:23,270 --> 00:44:25,609
Speaker 1: Uh, what else you got? Anything else? Yeah.

861
00:44:25,660 --> 00:44:28,720
Speaker 2: I mean, there's been adaptations over the years, uh, beyond

862
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 2: this movie, obviously, uh, 1922, the novel Ulysses by James

863
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:36,620
Speaker 2: Joyce was a big one because Ulysses is the Latin

864
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:41,009
Speaker 2: version of Odysseus. So that's what he's writing about in that. Yeah. Uh,

865
00:44:41,050 --> 00:44:43,230
Speaker 2: there was a great novel. Um, I haven't read it yet,

866
00:44:43,250 --> 00:44:45,730
Speaker 2: but I want to Margaret Atwood in 2005 wrote a

867
00:44:45,770 --> 00:44:51,319
Speaker 2: novel called, uh, the Penelopiad? The Penelopiad? How do you

868
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 2: say that?

869
00:44:51,780 --> 00:44:53,390
Speaker 1: The Penelopiad is what I'm going with.

870
00:44:53,410 --> 00:44:54,390
Speaker 2: The Penelopiad, I guess.

871
00:44:54,410 --> 00:44:57,790
Speaker 1: Yeah, like the Iliad and Penelope. It's Penelope. She combined

872
00:44:57,810 --> 00:45:01,009
Speaker 1: those two because it's the Odyssey told from Penelope's point

873
00:45:01,050 --> 00:45:01,330
Speaker 1: of view.

874
00:45:01,350 --> 00:45:02,890
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's kind of cool.

875
00:45:03,310 --> 00:45:06,190
Speaker 1: And then, oh, brother, where art thou? is obviously an

876
00:45:06,310 --> 00:45:09,850
Speaker 1: allegory for the Odyssey. I've never noticed it before. I've

877
00:45:09,870 --> 00:45:12,810
Speaker 1: heard that ever since the movie came out, and I

878
00:45:12,850 --> 00:45:14,910
Speaker 1: still didn't ever notice it. But I wonder now if

879
00:45:14,950 --> 00:45:16,950
Speaker 1: I went back and watched it, if I would get it.

880
00:45:17,820 --> 00:45:20,419
Speaker 2: I think so. I mean, it opens with a quote

881
00:45:20,460 --> 00:45:23,040
Speaker 2: from Homer on screen. So they clearly tell you like

882
00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:23,680
Speaker 2: what this is.

883
00:45:23,900 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 1: Right.

884
00:45:24,980 --> 00:45:28,370
Speaker 2: Up front. And, you know, George Clooney's characters name Ulysses,

885
00:45:30,650 --> 00:45:32,770
Speaker 2: which is, again, the Latin version of Odysseus.

886
00:45:32,810 --> 00:45:33,870
Speaker 1: Okay.

887
00:45:34,030 --> 00:45:35,029
Speaker 2: It's their journey home.

888
00:45:35,330 --> 00:45:36,569
Speaker 1: Sure.

889
00:45:36,710 --> 00:45:41,940
Speaker 2: Very, you know, sort of plainly. Penelope in the movie,

890
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:43,819
Speaker 2: his wife's name is Penny, Holly Hunter.

891
00:45:43,940 --> 00:45:44,240
Speaker 1: Okay.

892
00:45:45,660 --> 00:45:48,820
Speaker 2: There are suitors trying to. Take her hand that he

893
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:49,400
Speaker 2: has to fight.

894
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 1: Stay out of Woolworths.

895
00:45:52,300 --> 00:45:57,410
Speaker 2: Exactly. There's a blind prophet that is, you know, there's

896
00:45:57,430 --> 00:45:58,870
Speaker 2: just a blind prophet in the movie. There's just like

897
00:45:58,890 --> 00:45:59,590
Speaker 2: a blind seer.

898
00:45:59,610 --> 00:46:00,690
Speaker 1: Right.

899
00:46:00,790 --> 00:46:03,970
Speaker 2: The Cyclops is Big Dan Teague, John Goodman's character.

900
00:46:04,370 --> 00:46:07,300
Speaker 1: Why is he the Cyclops? Oh, he has a patch

901
00:46:07,380 --> 00:46:08,760
Speaker 1: over his eye. That's right. I forgot.

902
00:46:09,260 --> 00:46:13,169
Speaker 2: Yeah. So he's a Bible salesman. Uh, the sirens are

903
00:46:13,489 --> 00:46:16,029
Speaker 2: like very clearly in there. They're like literally singing at

904
00:46:16,050 --> 00:46:19,730
Speaker 2: the Creek and like they're under their trance. Uh, Circe

905
00:46:20,030 --> 00:46:22,969
Speaker 2: and the pigs is more like the toad. They told

906
00:46:23,100 --> 00:46:24,719
Speaker 2: us you was a toad.

907
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:25,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right.

908
00:46:25,980 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 2: So it turns John Turturro into a toad instead of

909
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:29,440
Speaker 2: a swine in this case.

910
00:46:30,460 --> 00:46:30,720
Speaker 1: Okay.

911
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:31,379
Speaker 2: All right.

912
00:46:31,420 --> 00:46:32,520
Speaker 1: I guess I'm convinced now.

913
00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:37,490
Speaker 2: Yeah. And there's also like, uh, Poseidon's wrath is in there. Uh,

914
00:46:37,510 --> 00:46:39,549
Speaker 2: there's the, the song, the suitors in the song when

915
00:46:39,570 --> 00:46:41,750
Speaker 2: they sing man of constant sorrow, it's like, It's very

916
00:46:41,810 --> 00:46:44,710
Speaker 2: kind of directly taken from the Odyssey and only the

917
00:46:44,750 --> 00:46:46,549
Speaker 2: way that the Coen brothers could do something like that.

918
00:46:46,590 --> 00:46:47,190
Speaker 1: They're great.

919
00:46:47,950 --> 00:46:49,770
Speaker 2: They're so great. And there's a sequel too, right?

920
00:46:50,390 --> 00:46:51,790
Speaker 1: To the O Brother, Where Art Thou?

921
00:46:52,270 --> 00:46:53,070
Speaker 2: No, to the Odyssey.

922
00:46:53,450 --> 00:46:58,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Telegony, which is about Odysseus' other son that's

923
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:03,100
Speaker 1: not mentioned in the Odyssey. But it supposes that he

924
00:47:03,140 --> 00:47:08,120
Speaker 1: had a son with Circe on that island and they

925
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:13,080
Speaker 1: produced the son Telegonus. And Telegonus is not quite as

926
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:17,200
Speaker 1: loyal to his father as Telemachus is because he goes

927
00:47:17,260 --> 00:47:22,969
Speaker 1: home and kills Odysseus and he marries Penelope. Telemachus just

928
00:47:22,989 --> 00:47:25,530
Speaker 1: shrugs and says, OK, well, I guess I'll marry Circe's

929
00:47:25,610 --> 00:47:28,150
Speaker 1: to get back at you. And they all become immortal.

930
00:47:28,910 --> 00:47:32,950
Speaker 2: That's right. They believe it was written by a Greek

931
00:47:32,969 --> 00:47:37,629
Speaker 2: poet named Eugamon of Cyrene. The funny thing about this

932
00:47:37,710 --> 00:47:39,710
Speaker 2: one is it was actually lost to history. So what

933
00:47:39,750 --> 00:47:43,990
Speaker 2: we know about the telegony is references from other writings

934
00:47:44,070 --> 00:47:44,509
Speaker 2: about it.

935
00:47:44,710 --> 00:47:44,950
Speaker 3: Right.

936
00:47:45,930 --> 00:47:48,690
Speaker 2: Maybe one day, if the Odyssey is ever truly lost

937
00:47:48,989 --> 00:47:52,250
Speaker 2: to history, it will listen to this podcast.

938
00:47:52,410 --> 00:47:52,810
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.

939
00:47:53,330 --> 00:47:55,110
Speaker 2: To write the next version.

940
00:47:55,190 --> 00:47:59,489
Speaker 1: Man, that was amazing. That's it for the Odyssey. We

941
00:47:59,530 --> 00:48:02,600
Speaker 1: could turn this into a 20-part series if we wanted to,

942
00:48:02,980 --> 00:48:05,779
Speaker 1: but we don't. And if you're like, I really like

943
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:08,390
Speaker 1: the movie, I really like this episode, there's so much

944
00:48:08,610 --> 00:48:12,450
Speaker 1: to read about interpreting the Odyssey that's just super fascinating.

945
00:48:12,510 --> 00:48:16,510
Speaker 1: So go forth and multiply your awareness of the Odyssey.

946
00:48:16,530 --> 00:48:19,299
Speaker 1: And in the meantime, everybody, I think it's time for

947
00:48:19,380 --> 00:48:22,580
Speaker 1: Listener Mail.

948
00:48:22,620 --> 00:48:25,819
Speaker 2: This is about rope. Hey, guys. Longtime listener. I love

949
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:28,440
Speaker 2: the rope episode. I especially enjoyed the history of rope making,

950
00:48:28,500 --> 00:48:31,839
Speaker 2: the explanation of how something so seemingly simple is actually

951
00:48:31,860 --> 00:48:34,450
Speaker 2: a pretty ingenious piece of technology. Mm-hmm. I do think

952
00:48:34,469 --> 00:48:37,800
Speaker 2: you guys missed a cool opportunity, though, to talk about

953
00:48:37,910 --> 00:48:42,620
Speaker 2: rope as a transformative lifting technology. I think we might

954
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:45,379
Speaker 2: have briefly said something about raising houses, but maybe not even.

955
00:48:46,780 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 2: While sailing ships were undoubtedly critical to connecting the world, rope,

956
00:48:49,700 --> 00:48:52,239
Speaker 2: especially combined with pulleys, is what allowed us to turn

957
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:55,560
Speaker 2: human and animal muscle into something enormously more useful. Think

958
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:57,879
Speaker 2: about how much of ancient civilization depends on moving very

959
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:01,410
Speaker 2: heavy things upward. Temples, city walls, aqueducts, bridges, you name it.

960
00:49:01,900 --> 00:49:04,540
Speaker 2: Rope didn't just rig the ships and build civilizations. help

961
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:08,500
Speaker 2: build the civilizations themselves. Anyway, great episode, guys. Thanks for

962
00:49:08,540 --> 00:49:10,410
Speaker 2: making me spend the rest of the day thinking about rope.

963
00:49:10,930 --> 00:49:13,610
Speaker 2: Not something I expected to do. That is from Jonathan.

964
00:49:13,810 --> 00:49:16,549
Speaker 1: Thanks a lot, Jonathan. You make a great case, just

965
00:49:16,570 --> 00:49:19,670
Speaker 1: like you did, Chuck, with comparing your brother, Warthog, and

966
00:49:19,770 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 1: the odyssey okay uh if you want to be like

967
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:25,960
Speaker 1: jonathan and send us an awesome email we love that

968
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:38,140
Speaker 1: kind of thing uh you can wrap it up Stuff

969
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:40,960
Speaker 1: You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more

970
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:45,170
Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

971
00:49:45,190 --> 00:49:46,890
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.