WEBVTT - Imagining a World Without White People ft. Sky Full of Elephants Author Cebo Campbell 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:03.640 You have to understand that the majority of the time 0:00:03.760 --> 0:00:07.320 that Black Americans is spent in this country, it's been 0:00:07.400 --> 0:00:10.520 spent on the side of being an other and it 0:00:10.560 --> 0:00:14.800 still is today, and it's important for someone to understand 0:00:14.800 --> 0:00:17.600 what the other feels like so that they can have 0:00:17.680 --> 0:00:20.760 compassion for someone else. You can get into the complexities 0:00:20.800 --> 0:00:23.760 of the stories and the complexity of the individual characters 0:00:23.760 --> 0:00:27.120 and everything they're going through. Ultimately, it's like, listen, this 0:00:27.200 --> 0:00:29.760 is what it feels like. And if you look at 0:00:29.760 --> 0:00:32.559 that book and you go it makes me uncomfortable. Understand 0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:35.360 that that discomfort is what other people are feeling when 0:00:35.400 --> 0:00:38.640 you aren't recognizing them in their context of what's really 0:00:38.680 --> 0:00:41.720 going on in the country. 0:00:45.240 --> 0:00:49.960 Hey va, fam, I am honestly what an amazing idea. 0:00:50.000 --> 0:00:52.080 I had to create a podcast where I can just 0:00:52.120 --> 0:00:56.520 get incredible people to talk to me and people whose 0:00:56.640 --> 0:00:59.600 work I have gotten to enjoy. And this is the 0:00:59.640 --> 0:01:01.959 first time I feel like I don't think I've had 0:01:02.200 --> 0:01:06.200 an author of a fiction novel. We do lots of 0:01:06.240 --> 0:01:08.560 author interviews at Brown Ambition BA fan, you know, we 0:01:08.640 --> 0:01:11.840 do because we love our career in our finance books. 0:01:12.080 --> 0:01:16.480 But I am such a fiction fan. I mean, my 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:21.399 guilty secret as a personal finance and negotiation expert is 0:01:21.400 --> 0:01:24.360 that the majority of what I read has nothing to 0:01:24.400 --> 0:01:28.880 do with business and finance. It is escapism, It is 0:01:29.680 --> 0:01:35.399 science fiction, it is fantasy, little romance. I love books. 0:01:35.720 --> 0:01:40.039 They are so especially at a time like this, crucial, 0:01:40.360 --> 0:01:44.840 as like an escape route from reality. Sometimes and then 0:01:44.880 --> 0:01:48.040 there are books like sky Full of Elephants by today's 0:01:48.080 --> 0:01:51.920 guest ce Bo Campbell, not Williams. Even though I will 0:01:51.920 --> 0:01:55.400 never live down the mistake I made when I don't 0:01:55.440 --> 0:01:57.240 know why I want you to be Williams so bad, 0:01:57.480 --> 0:02:01.320 we'll just leave that alone. I have the author of 0:02:01.360 --> 0:02:04.240 the novel sky Full of Elephants with us today, be 0:02:04.320 --> 0:02:06.440 a fan, and I couldn't be more grateful. This is 0:02:06.560 --> 0:02:08.880 just such a treat and such a joy for me 0:02:08.960 --> 0:02:11.320 to be here. And he's in New York at Simon 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:14.640 and Schuster. On the seventh we talked about the seventeenth 0:02:14.639 --> 0:02:19.359 floor on the celebrity floor. Now as someone who has 0:02:20.040 --> 0:02:23.400 always loved books, and like also we'll talk about your 0:02:23.400 --> 0:02:25.480 career path. You know you you work full time, you 0:02:25.480 --> 0:02:27.840 have your own business. I'm just geeked for you, like 0:02:27.880 --> 0:02:29.920 I am excited for you as a person who has 0:02:29.919 --> 0:02:32.520 written this book who has which has become such a 0:02:32.560 --> 0:02:38.600 massive success, and everybody black is talking about this book. 0:02:39.160 --> 0:02:42.960 Everybody black. It's like sky full of elephants cinners. That's 0:02:43.000 --> 0:02:44.239 my thread speed. 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:47.040 That's it, that's the that's what I want, that's what 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:49.120 I want. I want. It was for black people, so 0:02:49.800 --> 0:02:52.320 it was it was important to me, indeed, And when 0:02:52.360 --> 0:02:54.760 we did the initial marketing, I was like, I know, 0:02:54.840 --> 0:02:56.720 you want to like try to get it in your times. 0:02:56.720 --> 0:02:58.080 You want to try to get it in you know, 0:02:58.080 --> 0:03:01.480 Alley Town's a possim Clobelet's find the black bookstrogrammers. Let's 0:03:01.480 --> 0:03:03.560 go talk to them first. Let's give them arcs, Let's 0:03:03.560 --> 0:03:06.120 give them space. And I put it out. I was like, 0:03:06.240 --> 0:03:09.040 anyone that's trying to do a book club, there's four 0:03:09.080 --> 0:03:10.679 people in that book club. There's twenty people in that 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:12.480 book club. I'm coming. Or you got to do is 0:03:12.520 --> 0:03:14.040 say the word and I'll be there. And I did. 0:03:14.200 --> 0:03:16.360 I mean, I was, I don't even know. I did 0:03:16.440 --> 0:03:18.880 like a hundred book clubs. I've done so many, and 0:03:19.000 --> 0:03:21.760 it's like I want to have a conversation with black people. 0:03:22.400 --> 0:03:24.880 And that the impetus came from like coming to my 0:03:25.040 --> 0:03:27.480 aroun I first wrote the book my mom. I went 0:03:27.560 --> 0:03:29.880 home to visit a mom and she invited all of 0:03:29.919 --> 0:03:31.639 her church friends to the house and she was like, 0:03:31.760 --> 0:03:33.280 they all need to talk to you about this book. 0:03:33.320 --> 0:03:36.600 And I was like okay, and I said how they 0:03:36.680 --> 0:03:38.440 had read it? My mom had an arc, so I 0:03:38.520 --> 0:03:40.520 gave her a couple of early arts and she was 0:03:40.560 --> 0:03:43.120 passing the minds all beat up, and they just they 0:03:43.160 --> 0:03:45.520 were like, we want to talk to you. And it 0:03:45.760 --> 0:03:49.400 was the range of conversation, the things that they really 0:03:49.920 --> 0:03:53.600 didn't have space to communicate, didn't have space to get into, 0:03:54.120 --> 0:03:57.160 they did and it was really remarkable, and I realized, 0:03:57.200 --> 0:03:59.320 that's what that's what it's all about. The book is 0:03:59.360 --> 0:04:01.560 a flat tape that we can gather around. 0:04:03.120 --> 0:04:05.360 That's metaphor number two that I will steal. 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:12.160 And the anchor, fine, you can have it, you can 0:04:12.240 --> 0:04:12.440 have it. 0:04:13.240 --> 0:04:15.760 What a book? All right? I got to tell you something, 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:18.880 so bea fam I'm by the way, spoilers are ahead. 0:04:18.960 --> 0:04:21.280 I'm not Terry Gross. I don't know how to do 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:24.440 a book interview and not reveal spoilers about the plot. 0:04:25.360 --> 0:04:27.760 And the great thing about Sky Full of Elephants is 0:04:27.800 --> 0:04:30.560 that the plot feels like a spoiler, And that's when 0:04:30.600 --> 0:04:32.279 you know it's going to be good, because they're telling 0:04:32.320 --> 0:04:35.599 you upfront. All the white people in the in America, 0:04:35.680 --> 0:04:37.840 in North America, I think that's what we established in 0:04:37.880 --> 0:04:40.920 the book, have found the nearest body of water and 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:46.160 unlive themselves, just walked on in. And we come to 0:04:46.520 --> 0:04:50.800 this New America about a year after this so called event, 0:04:51.040 --> 0:04:53.680 and we meet a couple of characters. We first meet Charlie, 0:04:54.320 --> 0:04:57.599 who I love and do you are you someone? Cibo? 0:04:57.760 --> 0:04:59.359 Like do you have? Do you picture someone in your 0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:02.200 mind when you're writing your characters like we readers do? 0:05:02.960 --> 0:05:04.760 Can I tell you the guy I was picturing the 0:05:04.880 --> 0:05:08.680 whole time was the boxing coach from the Wire? Did 0:05:08.760 --> 0:05:13.320 you watch the Wire? Whoever that boxing was? 0:05:15.240 --> 0:05:17.720 That's good. That's pretty accurate. That's pretty accurate. 0:05:17.880 --> 0:05:19.640 Who all the moms in the neighborhood would come up 0:05:19.680 --> 0:05:21.680 and be like, Oh, we got a pie for you, coach. 0:05:21.720 --> 0:05:25.240 I don't even know his name. That's pretty accurate. Though 0:05:25.480 --> 0:05:28.000 I don't know his name either, but I honestly I 0:05:28.080 --> 0:05:31.240 had whenever I write, I will have like I'll make 0:05:31.480 --> 0:05:33.400 my sort of outline, and outline is literally just a 0:05:33.520 --> 0:05:37.680 sentence free chapter and then I will start to accumulate 0:05:37.760 --> 0:05:41.760 photos of people places, and I have a whole board, 0:05:41.960 --> 0:05:44.240 like a Pinterest board, like a visual Pints board of 0:05:44.440 --> 0:05:47.320 just like celebrities that I think, people that I think 0:05:47.320 --> 0:05:51.119 will fit the characters sort of way, not necessarily always 0:05:51.120 --> 0:05:53.320 how they look, but their way of being. And then 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:55.840 I have a whole bunch of like places that I 0:05:55.880 --> 0:05:59.120 can describe them, you know, And so you're not far off, 0:05:59.400 --> 0:06:02.240 you know, for who did you picture? Tell me? I 0:06:02.279 --> 0:06:04.679 actually actually actually had my dad. I know it sounds 0:06:04.800 --> 0:06:08.800 that's lame, but my dad was trying because my dad 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:11.880 was just like Charlie. He was very He was really 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:15.760 really gifted. He could he could make anything. He could 0:06:15.800 --> 0:06:19.160 make anything. So watch him sketch houses that he wanted 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:20.760 to build when I was a kid, and he was 0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:22.720 sketching in blueprint and he could do most of it. 0:06:22.800 --> 0:06:24.800 He could, you know, he could do he could make 0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:26.960 his own concrete before the foundation, he could do the 0:06:27.040 --> 0:06:30.160 carpentry work, he could do the plumbing. He was really gifted. 0:06:30.400 --> 0:06:34.200 But he was just not fulfilled, and like his potential 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:38.480 sort of crashed down onto itself and he became angry 0:06:38.600 --> 0:06:41.160 all the time. And you know, he went from having 0:06:41.200 --> 0:06:43.599 the potential of being extraordinary father to being a really 0:06:43.920 --> 0:06:46.600 terrible one. And I wanted to imagine a world in 0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:49.200 which he was fulfilled, like he got to achieve all 0:06:49.240 --> 0:06:51.440 the things that he wanted. What would that look like? 0:06:51.760 --> 0:06:55.000 And so Charlie was the arc of that, that transition 0:06:55.320 --> 0:06:57.599 into feeling unworthy to feeling worthy. 0:06:58.480 --> 0:07:03.880 Wow, I'm just blown away. I mean I'm not blown away, 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:06.120 but when you hear something like that, you know, we're 0:07:06.120 --> 0:07:10.280 both parents now and you look at these little humans 0:07:10.760 --> 0:07:14.160 and it's like our only jobs as parents really feels 0:07:14.240 --> 0:07:17.160 like giving you the tools to cope with this world. 0:07:18.080 --> 0:07:24.280 And it's a miracle when parents are damaged and aren't 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:29.280 able to heal that their kids go on to, you know, 0:07:29.840 --> 0:07:32.320 become such a great dad. Like I can already tell 0:07:32.360 --> 0:07:36.440 that you're a great dad and an artist, and like, 0:07:36.520 --> 0:07:38.560 in spite of all that, it's just really beautiful. And 0:07:40.960 --> 0:07:44.000 the way that you incorporated that story into your art 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:45.720 is just like, that's what it's about. 0:07:46.720 --> 0:07:50.320 Yeah, that's what That's how we process these process those 0:07:50.680 --> 0:07:53.280 the feelings that we don't have language for. We try 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:56.360 to articulate them in such a way that other people 0:07:56.440 --> 0:07:58.960 can share in it too. In whatever form that they 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:02.520 they sort of experience it. And so yeah, I think 0:08:02.640 --> 0:08:06.000 I've always thought that our kids are like and and 0:08:06.080 --> 0:08:08.200 Charlie it was the same way he looked at Sydney's 0:08:08.360 --> 0:08:11.560 sort of like she was the she could redeem it. 0:08:11.760 --> 0:08:17.120 Any our children came in, Oh my god, my dms 0:08:17.120 --> 0:08:20.680 are all Sydney. Everybody's Sydney. They they're so it's either 0:08:20.800 --> 0:08:23.720 love or hate, and that there's no in between, knowing between. 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:27.280 Hard to write that character Sydney, but yeah, the idea 0:08:27.360 --> 0:08:32.240 is that she reflects he reflects back to Charlie his 0:08:32.400 --> 0:08:34.559 own sort of value system. I think I think as 0:08:34.640 --> 0:08:38.480 a dad of girls, and in particular the girls will 0:08:38.559 --> 0:08:41.160 look I look at them and I see, you know, 0:08:41.480 --> 0:08:44.040 how they're developing. I see the space that they feel 0:08:44.080 --> 0:08:47.160 like they occupy. I see, you know, whether or not 0:08:47.240 --> 0:08:50.760 they're aspirations no matter what they are, or at least 0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:53.600 have the space to be fulfilled if that's not happening. 0:08:53.640 --> 0:08:56.079 It's reflection on me. It's reflection on the type of 0:08:56.160 --> 0:08:57.679 father that I am, the type of person that I am. 0:08:57.960 --> 0:09:00.800 It's reflection on what I've given them. And so when 0:09:00.800 --> 0:09:03.920 you think of it from a cultural standpoint, my wife 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:07.400 is biracial, and so our kids are multiracial in that way, 0:09:07.760 --> 0:09:12.840 and I go, we live in a predominantly white area 0:09:13.120 --> 0:09:17.680 in the UK, and I go, I gotta take them 0:09:17.720 --> 0:09:19.640 to Florida so they can see my mom. I gotta 0:09:19.640 --> 0:09:21.480 take them Florida so they can have this chicken. They 0:09:21.600 --> 0:09:24.000 take them in Florida, taken experience this culture because it 0:09:24.080 --> 0:09:26.920 needs to be balanced. And I want to be the 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:30.920 person that gives them that, Like, that's my gift, and 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:32.839 so I wanted Charlie to experience that too. 0:09:34.960 --> 0:09:37.079 Love that stopped giving me so many distracting things to 0:09:37.120 --> 0:09:39.720 talk about, because now I'm going to be like, that's 0:09:39.760 --> 0:09:43.720 why we had the insane. I like, my family's from Georgia, 0:09:44.000 --> 0:09:46.520 and my dad's from Georgia. Oh, I'm going to get 0:09:46.520 --> 0:09:48.040 into my history. It's going to blow your mind. But 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:52.400 so my dad's from Georgia. I'm obviously biracial. Maybe not obviously, 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:56.199 but I am, and my kids are half Hispanic. My 0:09:56.280 --> 0:09:59.400 husband's Dominicans, so they're multiracial. And the world I think 0:09:59.440 --> 0:10:02.640 we'll see them racially as Hispanic or Dominican or whatever, 0:10:02.720 --> 0:10:05.719 because that's how they present. And I'm just like, oh no, 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:07.360 they're gonna know they have a black mama from the 0:10:07.440 --> 0:10:12.040 South and back. And it's like I want them to 0:10:12.200 --> 0:10:18.679 see so many different like iterations, like so many different 0:10:18.679 --> 0:10:22.240 examples of what blackness can look like, and to love it, 0:10:22.920 --> 0:10:27.160 like they love my dad, they love my aunt, their 0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:30.480 great aunt Brenda, who's like my grandma, Like they love 0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:33.719 their cousins on that side, like I want them to 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:36.599 see and be around, you know, and to feel like 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:40.520 I love that, you know, so that they can grow 0:10:40.640 --> 0:10:45.559 up without a doubt, like being consciously aware of the 0:10:45.640 --> 0:10:49.760 beauty of blackness and the pride of it, and to 0:10:49.920 --> 0:10:52.480 know that they are. And I mean it's a brag, 0:10:52.840 --> 0:10:57.280 but my son colors himself with a brown cranky talk 0:10:57.360 --> 0:11:02.839 about the appear at night. They do their like their 0:11:02.920 --> 0:11:06.600 giant portraits of themselves. I was like Leo, his name 0:11:06.679 --> 0:11:10.679 is Rio, like baby, not even in the brightest summer 0:11:10.720 --> 0:11:15.199 would you ever achieve that shape. But I love that 0:11:15.280 --> 0:11:16.200 he wants to be chalk. 0:11:16.760 --> 0:11:19.720 I love it. That's beautiful. That gives me a lot 0:11:19.800 --> 0:11:21.720 of joy. That gives me a lot of joy. 0:11:22.160 --> 0:11:24.160 And he did girls on his hair. 0:11:24.360 --> 0:11:28.559 That's magical. It's magical. Honestly, the idea of the culture 0:11:28.640 --> 0:11:31.959 is really funny because like it's when you almost have 0:11:32.040 --> 0:11:34.199 to claim it. It claims you, but you almost have 0:11:34.280 --> 0:11:38.640 to claim it. But when you leave America, the specifically 0:11:38.720 --> 0:11:42.280 the black American experience is the American experience. For so 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:44.719 many people outside of the country they think of like 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:47.040 when they think of America, so many of the traits 0:11:47.160 --> 0:11:49.640 they're thinking are part of the black culture. It's not 0:11:49.840 --> 0:11:54.120 necessarily the white culture, right or not shocking at all. 0:11:54.840 --> 0:11:57.840 It's fascinating they you know, they're they're wearing the j's, 0:11:57.960 --> 0:12:00.599 they're they're talking to talk you know of maybe like 0:12:00.920 --> 0:12:05.160 occasionally acting like a Texan or a Californian. Everything else 0:12:05.240 --> 0:12:06.880 is just black, Like they think of it as black, 0:12:07.240 --> 0:12:09.800 and it's and it's a counterweight to the concept of 0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:13.439 like like trump Ism. You get to like they almost 0:12:13.520 --> 0:12:17.240 treat it like it's odd and over there. They're like, 0:12:17.320 --> 0:12:19.000 that's why are you guys doing that? And I'm like, 0:12:19.120 --> 0:12:21.920 I know why i a'll be doing that. And to them, 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:25.800 it's like that the export is blackness, not trump Ism, 0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:27.520 and not these other elements. 0:12:28.080 --> 0:12:33.319 So the art, the music, the films, the TV, the 0:12:33.360 --> 0:12:37.920 pop culture that is us and so deeply it's very insidious. 0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:43.960 The other side. Okay, well I stopped distracting me, all right, 0:12:43.960 --> 0:12:46.439 We're gonna get to Charlie. So to establish Charlie, we 0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:48.880 meet and you know and thank you for telling that. 0:12:49.240 --> 0:12:51.520 Example of how that you know your father is woven 0:12:51.559 --> 0:12:54.360 into Charlie's character. We meet him twenty years after he's 0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:58.600 been imprisoned and he is released after the event they 0:12:58.679 --> 0:13:02.720 break out because all the white people are unalive, they're dead. 0:13:03.480 --> 0:13:06.839 And he is a professor at Howard when we meet him, 0:13:07.160 --> 0:13:11.600 he's teaching what is he teaching? Solar solar Yeah, it's. 0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:16.079 Like electrical systems, and he's teaching a portion of that 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:17.800 class is solar panels. 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:21.400 Oh gotcha. I selfishly, I really wanted to like see 0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:23.439 what one of his classes would sound like and what 0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:26.319 the kids are asking him about and if they're kids whatever. 0:13:26.400 --> 0:13:29.880 But anyway, maybe the sequel And he gets a call 0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:34.439 from someone he never knew existed, his daughter, Sydney, who 0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:40.360 lives in far Flung, Wisconsin, and basically tells him she's in. 0:13:40.800 --> 0:13:45.640 Sydney's mother is white, and she tells him you're my dad, 0:13:45.840 --> 0:13:47.160 and I need you to come. I need you to 0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:49.800 come get me because I've been here for a year. Surviving, 0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:54.120 and I'm trying to get to, of all places, Alabama. 0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:57.640 She wants to go to Alabama for some reason. Sydney 0:13:57.720 --> 0:14:02.400 feels like Alabama is where the world hasn't changed, and 0:14:02.600 --> 0:14:06.319 she's going to find her people, her people, her people, 0:14:06.840 --> 0:14:09.760 her people, the ones that could be left in Alabama. 0:14:10.440 --> 0:14:14.640 And Charlie gets in his little Prius or whatever whatever 0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:14.959 it is. 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:18.640 It's definitely a prius, says, no doubt. There's a lot 0:14:18.640 --> 0:14:22.240 of preous So well, Prius. 0:14:22.560 --> 0:14:25.200 I know just a picture that it's very like interesting. 0:14:25.600 --> 0:14:30.360 The blackmail hero not driving like a muscle car or something. 0:14:31.480 --> 0:14:34.400 She gets into the electric car. He finds his way 0:14:35.120 --> 0:14:38.320 to Wisconsin, so I'll pause there. He's about to meet 0:14:38.360 --> 0:14:42.920 his daughter. She's nineteen. Will we meet Sydney nineteen? And 0:14:43.760 --> 0:14:46.120 I'll tell you that I actually started to read The 0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:48.640 Sky Full of Elephants, or listen. I listened to it. 0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:51.240 I did a combo listening and reading on my on 0:14:51.360 --> 0:14:53.560 my on my phone, like an e book thing. And 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:59.360 I was visiting my sister in Wisconsin and my mother 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:04.680 in Wisconsin where my mother's from. What my mother is white? 0:15:05.800 --> 0:15:09.400 My mother is white, She's born and raised in Wisconsin. Oh, 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:12.400 my gosh, my sister and I have different fathers, so 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:16.280 my older sister and my older brother are fully white. 0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:19.000 We were raised as siblings, so you know whatever. And 0:15:19.080 --> 0:15:22.480 then my younger brother and I are both biracial. And 0:15:22.880 --> 0:15:26.200 when we meet Sydney, she's not only in Wisconsin, she's 0:15:26.240 --> 0:15:29.080 also the biracial, the only biracial child in her family. 0:15:29.240 --> 0:15:32.520 So she's had to watch her brothers, her mother, her 0:15:32.560 --> 0:15:36.720 stepfather walk into the lake behind their house and kill themselves, 0:15:36.960 --> 0:15:39.280 and she's tried to save them, you know, at that 0:15:39.400 --> 0:15:42.240 scene where she's trying to save them and she can't 0:15:42.320 --> 0:15:45.040 and she can't make herself drown because her will to live, 0:15:45.240 --> 0:15:49.280 Like whatever. I got chills just telling you that. And 0:15:49.880 --> 0:15:52.240 I started to read it, and I was in the 0:15:52.360 --> 0:15:54.760 kitchen with my mom and my sister, and I was like, so, 0:15:54.840 --> 0:16:04.040 I'm reading this book. No, no, I don't know why 0:16:05.320 --> 0:16:09.200 sometimes I choose violence. It is really uncomfortable to tell 0:16:09.200 --> 0:16:11.280 your white mom that you're reading a book about how 0:16:11.760 --> 0:16:17.640 all the white people are dead. She was like, now, listen, 0:16:17.720 --> 0:16:21.080 we've she and I we have gotten through two Trump terms, 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:24.080 you know, like two Trump elections, and in the first one, 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:27.119 she did not vote on the right side of progression 0:16:27.880 --> 0:16:31.120 and she's come around, like she's made so many strides, 0:16:31.200 --> 0:16:33.200 but that was a tough one for her to swallow. 0:16:33.280 --> 0:16:36.040 She wasn't pleased about the premise. And then I realized, 0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:38.080 I can't explain this to her. It's not for her. 0:16:39.200 --> 0:16:43.760 You know, Hey, ba fam, we got to take a 0:16:43.840 --> 0:16:46.520 quick break, pay some bills, and we'll be right back. 0:16:47.520 --> 0:16:50.160 All right, ba fam, We're back. But the way that, like, 0:16:50.400 --> 0:16:53.360 there is so much overlap with my story in Sydney's story, 0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:57.000 and like I would have been Sidney Devin, I could 0:16:57.120 --> 0:16:59.840 I could actually kind of put I could put myself 0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:02.000 and how she might have put myself in her shoes? 0:17:02.120 --> 0:17:04.880 Like what if it had been in my teenage years 0:17:05.280 --> 0:17:08.360 when we all did live together and only my brother 0:17:08.440 --> 0:17:10.800 and I would be left because my mom and dad 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:13.119 split up, So then I would have had to go 0:17:13.520 --> 0:17:16.560 find well, he wasn't there, he was in Atlanta anyone 0:17:16.640 --> 0:17:17.159 that party. 0:17:18.720 --> 0:17:23.560 But wow, I don't think I've ever met anyone that 0:17:23.920 --> 0:17:25.600 has that close to parallel. 0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:30.840 That's incredible, right, So I was like, why, Wisconsin, why 0:17:31.119 --> 0:17:33.560 you know what? How did Sydney the character get formed? 0:17:34.320 --> 0:17:36.879 Well, she was initially based off of my wife and 0:17:37.000 --> 0:17:40.520 my older daughter to some degree, right, so my wife, 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:42.800 like when I first wrote the first chapter with just 0:17:43.040 --> 0:17:45.760 Charlie early on, I gave it to my wife and 0:17:45.920 --> 0:17:49.000 she responded to it like she was like, this isn't 0:17:49.040 --> 0:17:53.600 my experience. She goes my experience growing up bi racial 0:17:53.800 --> 0:17:57.560 in West London, I didn't have black culture around me. 0:17:57.880 --> 0:18:01.560 I didn't indeed, I didn't even know how to interact 0:18:01.720 --> 0:18:03.200 with it. There were times when I would see a 0:18:03.200 --> 0:18:04.680 bunch of black women together, I didn't feel like I 0:18:04.720 --> 0:18:06.360 could just roll up on them like that. I didn't 0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:09.159 feel my blackness. And she traveled back and forth to 0:18:09.240 --> 0:18:11.320 New York quite a lot as a kid, and she 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:12.720 goes the only time I felt when I was in 0:18:12.720 --> 0:18:15.520 New York with my grandmother, who was from Trinidad. But 0:18:15.600 --> 0:18:18.000 then she'd go back to London and she would be disconnected, 0:18:18.040 --> 0:18:20.040 and so I started to think, well, I want to 0:18:20.080 --> 0:18:23.359 incorporate her experience. At the same time, my daughter was 0:18:23.440 --> 0:18:26.240 having trouble with her hair and she was just like, Dad, 0:18:26.240 --> 0:18:28.240 I just want you to like either shave it or 0:18:28.320 --> 0:18:30.480 just do dreadlocks, because I don't even want to have to. 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:32.320 I don't want to have to comb these curls out 0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:34.000 every day, I don't want to deal with it. And 0:18:34.320 --> 0:18:36.720 I realized how much her hair as signed itself to 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:39.440 her identity and she didn't understand it. I hadn't done 0:18:39.480 --> 0:18:41.600 the work to help her understand how important it was. 0:18:41.680 --> 0:18:43.760 Now she loves her hair, and so I started there. 0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:49.040 And then Wisconsin was for two reasons. One that there 0:18:49.080 --> 0:18:51.840 are cities in Wisconsin. I'm sure you know that are 0:18:52.000 --> 0:18:56.159 like the whitest cities literally in America. Like one I 0:18:56.240 --> 0:18:57.560 was looking at her. I want to say it was 0:18:57.600 --> 0:19:00.600 maybe Kenosha. It was ninety eight point one per white, 0:19:00.720 --> 0:19:03.040 which is like, that's crazy, Like that's a lot. That's 0:19:03.200 --> 0:19:06.159 like a lot of not it's a lot of homogeny 0:19:06.280 --> 0:19:09.960 happening right like it's it's real strong and so. And 0:19:10.200 --> 0:19:13.200 it just so happened that many years before I wrote 0:19:13.240 --> 0:19:16.680 this book, I was profiled in the store one time. 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:18.720 And it wasn't bad, but it was one of those 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:21.280 things that you know, you're just annoyed that somebody comes 0:19:21.359 --> 0:19:24.320 up to you asking a bunch of stupid questions, wanted 0:19:24.359 --> 0:19:26.119 you to show them your bag to make sure you 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:28.560 didn't steal anything, like come on, So I walk out 0:19:28.560 --> 0:19:32.000 of this store. This was this was in Florida. But 0:19:32.160 --> 0:19:34.040 I was with I was with a bunch of friends 0:19:34.040 --> 0:19:36.840 who were from Wisconsin. They're from White white Fish Bay 0:19:37.200 --> 0:19:40.720 and from Milwaukee. And I walk out and I tell 0:19:40.760 --> 0:19:42.639 them I was like, this thing just happened. And I 0:19:42.720 --> 0:19:44.320 was kind of like, you know what happens, you know 0:19:44.440 --> 0:19:47.480 to black people. And one of the people, this girl 0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:50.359 shoes there, she goes, she goes, could you just be 0:19:50.480 --> 0:19:52.960 making that up? I was like, why the world would 0:19:52.960 --> 0:19:54.600 I make that up? And she goes, well, black people 0:19:54.600 --> 0:19:56.159 say that type of stuff all the time and more 0:19:56.200 --> 0:19:58.080 if you're just maybe picking up on it because you 0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:00.880 just feel connected to other black people. And I'm looking 0:20:00.880 --> 0:20:02.360 at her like that doesn't need one does it even 0:20:02.440 --> 0:20:06.200 makes sense? But two, It's like I'm trying to tell 0:20:06.240 --> 0:20:08.119 you the sky is full of elephants, and I can 0:20:08.160 --> 0:20:10.520 see the elephants and you can't. And one day those 0:20:10.560 --> 0:20:12.320 elephantsre gonna crash down. And you said it just like 0:20:12.400 --> 0:20:15.000 that to her, And that became eventually the title of 0:20:15.080 --> 0:20:17.680 the book. And because she was from Wisconsin, and because 0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:22.400 Wisconsin was such a strong concentration of whiteness and sort 0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:25.639 of culturally in my experience at least, I was like 0:20:25.760 --> 0:20:29.280 this feels right, and then you know, Kenosha with that 0:20:29.359 --> 0:20:31.800 guy Kyle Rittenhouse happened and I was like, yeah, let's 0:20:31.840 --> 0:20:34.320 go there, let's do it there, and so it worked 0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:36.160 out that way. Yeah. 0:20:38.400 --> 0:20:45.600 Way, let me tell you what I thought about hit 0:20:45.720 --> 0:20:48.199 me and you know your name? I couldn't tell. I'm like, oh, 0:20:48.280 --> 0:20:50.240 is this a guy written who's written this? Or a woman? 0:20:50.400 --> 0:20:53.080 So I found out I don't like to necessarily go 0:20:53.200 --> 0:20:56.080 into a book understanding everything about the author because it's 0:20:56.160 --> 0:20:59.040 not always super relevant. But I did. 0:20:59.160 --> 0:20:59.600 I had. 0:20:59.680 --> 0:21:01.960 The more I got into the book, we meet Sydney 0:21:02.520 --> 0:21:06.600 and she has internalized so much. Well, I mean, I'll 0:21:06.600 --> 0:21:08.320 tell you what my perception is, and you can kind 0:21:08.359 --> 0:21:09.560 of tell me. But when I feel like when we 0:21:09.640 --> 0:21:13.480 meet her, she's so she's so traumatized and devastated by 0:21:13.840 --> 0:21:17.720 the death of her family that she looks to the 0:21:17.840 --> 0:21:20.600 only people that she feels like she can blame. Who 0:21:20.720 --> 0:21:23.520 is who's left? And who's left? Yes, appear to be 0:21:24.240 --> 0:21:26.840 you know, well, actually I don't think I'm even clear 0:21:26.880 --> 0:21:29.480