1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,000 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:12,800 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamm. Hi, I'm Christian Seger. Last 4 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 1: week we lost several key individuals. Oliver Sacks died, Wayne 5 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: Dyer also passed away. Yeah, I wasn't familiar with that 6 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:26,279 Speaker 1: until you sent it to me. Yeah, as I was 7 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 1: inundated with stuff about Oliver Sacks rightly so, and when 8 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:33,199 Speaker 1: we posted that on our social media accounts, it kind 9 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 1: of went I guess the kids call it viral. Yeah. 10 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 1: But then rule of three, which really a thing. It's 11 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 1: all about our observation of events happening. But in this 12 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 1: case we did get a big number three. Yeah. Unfortunately, 13 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:51,200 Speaker 1: Wes Craven passed away on I believe it was Sunday night, 14 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: probably Sunday afternoon his time. But I was unaware of this, 15 00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 1: as probably most of the public was. But he was 16 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: battling with Can's sorry had um brain cancer? Yeah, brain 17 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 1: cancer um yeah, which yeah, I don't think that had 18 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 1: been a public knowledge yet. But yeah, well it's really unfortunate, 19 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:13,399 Speaker 1: um because you know, as as many of you out there, no, Robert, 20 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 1: Joe and I are are big horror fans. We grew 21 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 1: up watching Les Craven movies. I'd say that they were 22 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 1: probably more than a little responsible for my weird idea 23 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 1: of how high school was going to go. Yeah, yeah that, 24 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 1: Like even if you didn't see any of the Craving films, 25 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:31,640 Speaker 1: and I have to admit for a long time I 26 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 1: didn't see them, but even then, you'd go into the 27 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:36,959 Speaker 1: video stores and there's Freddy Krueger on the wall, like, 28 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: you know, a thousand feet high. Like the cultural residence 29 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 1: of his work was just unavoidable. In the the eighties 30 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 1: and nineties, everybody knows who Freddie Krueger is, even if 31 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: they've never seen any of the Nightmare in Elm Street movies. 32 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 1: I would I would have to think, right, they at 33 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 1: least know that he's that guy from those slasher movies. Yeah, 34 00:01:55,920 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 1: he's an American cultural ion, arguably an international cultural icon. Yeah, 35 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 1: I agree. In fact, when I lived in Singapore as 36 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 1: a kid, that was when I saw The Nightmare in 37 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: Elm Street three D addition and it was very big 38 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:08,920 Speaker 1: over there. Oh, I thought you're gonna because I know 39 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 1: there are various like there's an Indian, Oh is there 40 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:14,080 Speaker 1: there's like an iteration film. Yeah. No, we used to 41 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 1: buy bootleg versions over there. Uh, and that was I 42 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:21,920 Speaker 1: had the three D one. So I'm looking through his filmography. 43 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 1: I kept seeing films that, oh I never saw that, 44 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 1: but it was everywhere, and I feel like I feel 45 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 1: like I've seen it. Other times it would be a film, 46 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 1: you know, like Swamp Thing, where I enjoyed it as 47 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 1: a kid, but later on I realized there was more 48 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 1: to the comics. So I don't know that I really 49 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 1: love any particularly So I don't know that I actually 50 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 1: am in love with any particular West Cravean film, but 51 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 1: my world wouldn't be the same without. Yeah, I felt 52 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 1: the same way exactly that he definitely put a stamp 53 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: on the horror genre. But at the same time, I 54 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 1: don't know that I except for the movie we're gonna 55 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 1: talk about today, which I have a personal fascination with, 56 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: I don't know necessarily that any of his movies were 57 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 1: classics for me. You know, My Maory in Elm Street 58 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 1: is a interesting story, uh, and and clearly grabbed the 59 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 1: attention of the world when it came out, and however 60 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:18,800 Speaker 1: many sequels there were, But I don't know that I 61 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 1: would put it in like my top ten horror movies 62 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:24,240 Speaker 1: of all time, you know, Um, and I generally anger 63 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 1: the world by saying that I actually liked the remake 64 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:29,799 Speaker 1: more than I like the remake too. Yeah. I saw 65 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 1: that in the theater and I thought it was pretty 66 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 1: well done. Um and uh. I laughed out loud at 67 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 1: the kid wearing the Joy Division shirt. That was the 68 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 1: only part in the movie where I think, I, like, 69 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 1: I broke character from watching a horror movie. There's just like, 70 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 1: you know, this teenager. When was that movie like two 71 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 1: thousand thirteen or something like that. It was relatively recent, 72 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 1: and this kid was wearing a Joy Division shirt to 73 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 1: signify how Gothy and and and Darky was. Well, you know, 74 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: I don't know, I thought it bought it, Yeah, but 75 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 1: I would buy it if it was set in the 76 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: seventies or eighties and he was wearing a Joy Division. Yeah. 77 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't really know how much how 78 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 1: into Joy Division that could be me as well? Right 79 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 1: that with all these biopics about Ian Curtis and stuff, 80 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:15,640 Speaker 1: maybe they're a lot more popular than I think they're. 81 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 1: You know, it turned out though that Craven, you know, 82 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: there's a lot more to him than just the horror films. Yeah, 83 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 1: he's a fascinating guy. Yeah. He earned a master's in 84 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 1: philosophy and writing from John Hopkins, uh and after a 85 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 1: brief stints in academia, he returned to the movie industry. 86 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 1: He started out as a sound editor. I think he 87 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 1: worked under pseudonym on an adult picture more than one, 88 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 1: that was what I was reading. Yeah, apparently he did 89 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 1: a lot of work in a pornography. I think mostly 90 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 1: as like a sound editor, maybe doing some directing work. 91 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 1: But I believe that there's a documentary about the infamous 92 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 1: Deep Throat movie and he had some involvement with that, 93 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:57,279 Speaker 1: though he won't reveal what it was, but probably on 94 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 1: the technical side. Yeah, yeah, yeah, um, but yeah, fascinating guy. 95 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 1: He I mean, he worked his way up the ladder 96 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: in academia, taught for a while, uh, and then just 97 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:11,679 Speaker 1: dropped everything because he had an opportunity for to do film. 98 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 1: And you know, you see why after you look at 99 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 1: the bulk of work for his career. I mean he 100 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 1: really put his all into it. Yeah, twenty nine films 101 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:22,160 Speaker 1: that he directed. That's not getting into stuff that he produced. 102 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean he was a successful filmmaker. And 103 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 1: that's I mean, it's especially commercially like even the film 104 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about today, despite some of the problems had, 105 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:33,920 Speaker 1: you know, it worked with the critics and it brought 106 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 1: in a profit. Yeah, certainly. And he Um, you know, 107 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 1: especially when you think about like I think it was 108 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 1: like sort of the seventies was when he was doing 109 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:45,239 Speaker 1: that work with adult films. And then his first real 110 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 1: like horror film was Last Tough on the Left, I believe, 111 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 1: And that is a movie, first of all, that is 112 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:55,599 Speaker 1: a movie that is I think would probably be in 113 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 1: most people's top five top fifty horror movies of all 114 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 1: time it least in terms of the gruesome impact that 115 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 1: it had on the industry and so kind of an 116 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 1: infamous video nasty huh. And he just came right out 117 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: of the gate with that and then was so successful. 118 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 1: He just rolled into making one successful movie after another. 119 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 1: You know. Um, Last House on the Left, that is 120 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:23,919 Speaker 1: a movie that really is upsetting to watch. Um, I 121 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 1: as a horror fan, UM, sort of forced myself to 122 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:30,360 Speaker 1: watch both that and the movie. I spit on your 123 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 1: grave that they're both two films that I know. I 124 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: know what's up in him, and I just not my 125 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: It is not for me either, but I felt like 126 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 1: I should understand why it wasn't for me. And they 127 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 1: are really really difficult to watch. But um, I'm I 128 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: have not seen it. But the remake of Last House 129 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 1: on the Left came out a couple of years ago, 130 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 1: and I'm kind of curious about that because it had 131 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 1: this very strange cast for the plot of the movie, 132 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 1: people who you wouldn't expect to do that kind of thing, Like, um, 133 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 1: the kid from Breaking Bad was was in Um, what's 134 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 1: his name, Aaron Something. I can't remember his name now, 135 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 1: but um, and uh, Garrett Dilla Hunt, you know that guy, 136 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 1: he's in it as well, and Ricky lind Home And 137 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: I was just like, wow, this is the strangest group 138 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 1: of people to put together to remake this utterly like 139 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 1: trashy horror film, you know. Um, so I'm curious about it. 140 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 1: Another one that I've always really thought it was kind 141 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 1: of funny is Deadly Blessing. Have you ever seen that one? 142 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 1: I don't think I've seen this thing. I read about it. 143 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 1: It's another one of his early ones. It's I can't 144 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 1: remember if they're Quakers or Amish or if it's just 145 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 1: like a fictional version of of that kind of religious community. 146 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 1: But there it's a horror film set within that kind 147 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: of community, probably early eighties, um, and it's just utterly 148 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 1: bizarre and kind of silly in some spaces. I think 149 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 1: that's something you could say about almost all of West 150 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 1: Craven's films, is that they have a sort of sense 151 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 1: of self awareness that is making fun of themselves. Of course, 152 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 1: he also directed What Music of the Heart? I haven't 153 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 1: seen that? Yeah, yeah, that and that one that one 154 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 1: actually had an Academy Award nomination? Is that right? Wow? 155 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 1: Meryl Street I believe was nominated for it. And that 156 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 1: was a serious film about you know, about music and 157 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 1: school and kids and all. Um. I don't think he 158 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: ever got to make one about bird conservation, but that 159 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 1: was of course one of his big passions in life too. 160 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 1: It's interesting, yeah, define that actually conservation lines up with 161 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:41,679 Speaker 1: a lot of horror guys. Did you know that the 162 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 1: writer Robert Aikman was a big conservationist in England. Yeah, 163 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 1: he's an interesting character. So. But but related to this, uh, 164 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:52,960 Speaker 1: In order to get into kind of the space for 165 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: talking about the science behind Serpent and the Rainbow today, 166 00:08:56,280 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 1: I really I've never seen Wes Craven's People Into the Stairs, 167 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 1: So I watched it last night, and man, I wish 168 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 1: I had seen that at a younger age. It. Um, 169 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 1: it's kind of like the perfect like intro to horror 170 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: for a kid. It's very much just like a dark 171 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:17,839 Speaker 1: fairy tale. Yeah, there's you know, there's more going on 172 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 1: and meets the eye. Your parents are not who they seen, 173 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:23,679 Speaker 1: you know, and there's a there's a gump living in 174 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 1: the basement, you know that your standard stuff. There's all 175 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 1: kinds of crazy stuff in it, but it's basically a 176 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 1: kid's film with like occasional over the top violence thrown 177 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:40,079 Speaker 1: into it. Uh structure. Yeah, yeah, essentially I loved it. Um. 178 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 1: But yeah, I hope that you know, um, I guess 179 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: with his passing that he gets a little bit more 180 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:47,080 Speaker 1: attention for some of the movies like that that he 181 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 1: was really invested in. You know, that was one of 182 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 1: the ones that he wrote and directed and kind of 183 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:52,839 Speaker 1: shepherded all the way along. That's the one that I 184 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 1: seem to recall that the mother and father and that 185 00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:01,440 Speaker 1: are are supposedly patterned on Ronald and Nancy Reagan. So 186 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 1: there's like is there some at least mild political um 187 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 1: statement to view. I could see that. I could see 188 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 1: that for sure. Yeah. Yeah, it's fantastic out there. If 189 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 1: you haven't seen it, I recommended, uh, you know, even 190 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:16,959 Speaker 1: if you're not into you know, really gory horror movies. 191 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:21,319 Speaker 1: It's not particularly gruesome in that way. It's especially by 192 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:24,320 Speaker 1: today's standards. I'd say it was. It's about as scary 193 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 1: as a modern day Doctor Who episode. Um, but it 194 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:31,839 Speaker 1: is grim for sure. But um, today we're going to 195 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 1: talk about this movie that he came out with the 196 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 1: n And when I saw the trailer for this on 197 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 1: actually like the commercial for it when I was a 198 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:43,680 Speaker 1: little kid, the commercial alone scared the pants off of me. 199 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 1: I was so terrified of this movie. And it's called 200 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:50,719 Speaker 1: The Serpent and the Rainbow, and it's based on an 201 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 1: academic book by a guy named Wade Davis. And so 202 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 1: we thought, with West Craven passing away, we wanted to 203 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 1: do some kind of tribute to him. But also the 204 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: science behind Wade Davis's uh anthropological look at Haitian society 205 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:13,320 Speaker 1: and Voodo culture UH is just fascinating and there's interesting 206 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:16,719 Speaker 1: stuff going on with the biological and chemical science in there. 207 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 1: But there's also some really interesting stuff going on with 208 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 1: the battles in academia over this work as well. Yeah, 209 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 1: I mean, just right off the bat, it's it may 210 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 1: strike some people with weird. It certainly did me when 211 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 1: I first read about it, that you have an academic 212 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 1: publication and it's adapted into a horror movie and the 213 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:38,200 Speaker 1: title is the same, because I mean, that's uh and 214 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 1: that's telling and we'll get into that. So should we 215 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:46,080 Speaker 1: do like a breakdown of what this movie is about first? Yeah? Yeah, okay, 216 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 1: let me see if I can, if I can summarize 217 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 1: this and you help me out along. It's been fifteen 218 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:53,839 Speaker 1: years since I've seen it taught on TNT Monster Vision 219 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 1: with Joe Bob Britty. Oh yeah, well I saw it 220 00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 1: more recently than that. I rewatched it when I was 221 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: on Netflix last year. But so, The Serpent in the 222 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 1: Rainbow is a very loose fictional adaptation of Wade Davis's 223 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 1: trip to Haiti to investigate what's known as zombie powder. Basically, 224 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:20,560 Speaker 1: the idea here was that um so that the idea 225 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 1: was that a medical company supposedly approached Wade Davis about 226 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:29,240 Speaker 1: using said zombie powder as like almost like a anesthetic 227 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:34,679 Speaker 1: I guess when performing surgeries. Yeah, and and uh, we 228 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 1: have the details on that that we'll we'll we'll get 229 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 1: into later, but yeah, it has potential medical application, and 230 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 1: the film itself kind of goes way beyond that in 231 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:48,439 Speaker 1: that the character who's supposed to be based on Wade Davis, 232 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 1: I don't think they even call him that in the movie. 233 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 1: I think he has like a totally different name. He 234 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: gets enmeshed in both the Haitian Revolution and this kind 235 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:02,679 Speaker 1: of like very stereotypical, a kind of culturally insensitive depiction 236 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:07,199 Speaker 1: of voodoo UM in which people are being buried alive 237 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:10,200 Speaker 1: and then brought back from the dead as these sort 238 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:12,560 Speaker 1: of mindless slaves. Yeah. I mean, especially in the time 239 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 1: period um voodoo is an in Haitian culture in general 240 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 1: is just right for for exploitation. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, 241 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 1: like I think of James Bond, was it The Living Daylight? Yeah, 242 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 1: I think it was either that or a Thunderball, But yeah, yeah, exactly, 243 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 1: this is the air. Yeah. The depictions of voodoo culture 244 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 1: that we grew up with were very insensitive com to 245 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 1: kind of kind of what I don't think a movie 246 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 1: like that could get made today. Um, but I do 247 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 1: still just because of the time I grew up in 248 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 1: I sort of had this personal affinity for it because 249 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 1: it scared me so badly. Um it really. I mean again, 250 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 1: I was just came out in eight, so I was eleven. Uh. 251 00:13:56,559 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 1: Probably wasn't the target audience for this, but you know, uh, 252 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:04,200 Speaker 1: it really got its hooks into me, you know, And 253 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 1: I've always held it up as one of those movies 254 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 1: over the years that can just even now, it's kind 255 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:11,760 Speaker 1: of silly when you rewatch it. The stuff isn't actually 256 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 1: all that scary, but there's something about it that still 257 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:16,560 Speaker 1: resonates with And it was a major studio relief. So 258 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 1: even if you didn't see it in the theater and 259 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 1: you weren't the target audience, you definitely saw the advertisements 260 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 1: and you were a TV watching household, and if you 261 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 1: went to the video store it was a thousand. It 262 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 1: was prominent. Yeah. So okay, let's you know, we've talked 263 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 1: a lot about West Craven. I know our audience is 264 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: probably more interested in the science of this, so let's 265 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 1: dive into that. So first of all, we're stepping away 266 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 1: from the movie here and we're talking more about Davis's work. 267 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 1: He did a cultural ethnography of the sort of beliefs 268 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 1: around Haitian culture and this zombie folk lore. And we're 269 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 1: talking about zombie without any here zo m b I 270 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 1: that's how it's spelled in that culture. Um, let's let's 271 00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 1: dive into that and then we can get into the 272 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 1: research and kind of what he came up with. This 273 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 1: is early eighties. I want to say. Two, here's an 274 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 1: interesting fact um long long before Davis looked into this um. Actually, 275 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 1: Zora Hurston, American folklorist, anthropologist and author of Their Eyes 276 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 1: Were Watching God in nineteen thirty eight, after doing some 277 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 1: work in Haiti and in Jamaica. She was one of 278 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 1: the first who suggest that there could be a material 279 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 1: basis for zombies, for the zombie phenomenon. And so what's 280 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 1: kind of interesting about that is that's before the zombie 281 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 1: horror phenomenon really caught hold of America's interest in the 282 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 1: When did white zombie come out? I am not not 283 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 1: really clear on the time, but the Night of the 284 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 1: Living Dead was the latest sixties early seventies. That's the 285 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 1: one that really yeah, put it in hyper drive. Yeah, 286 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 1: So this is she's kind of taking a look at 287 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 1: the reality of this beyond myth before it's really grabbed 288 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 1: the cultural interest. Davis, on the other hand, he comes 289 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 1: in well after it's entrenched in our culture. In fact, 290 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 1: I mean I would I would say that it's arguable, 291 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 1: like it's not like Davis exposed this culture and he 292 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 1: was the first one to do it, and people told 293 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 1: him what was going on and sent him down there. 294 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 1: He was funded by people. But um, basically the idea 295 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 1: is that Haitian zombies aren't what we think of as 296 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 1: zombies today. Right, So if you're thinking Walking Dead, the 297 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 1: TV show out there, that's not what this is. Uh. 298 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 1: The way that it's considered in this culture is that 299 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:31,120 Speaker 1: they are quote the living dead, which is a little different. 300 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 1: I know it sounds the same at first, but they're 301 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 1: undead slaves and there's a certain kind of vood on 302 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 1: priest that I believe it's pronounced boker um that can 303 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 1: perform this ritual and it it's seen as a sort 304 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:52,040 Speaker 1: of sociological punishment. Actually, um, so in that religion that 305 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 1: there's this concept at least this is how Davis presents it, 306 00:16:55,760 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: that human bodies contain two types of angels. Is what 307 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 1: he calls them. One is the Big Good Angel and 308 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 1: the other is the Little Good Angel. The little Good 309 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: Angel is essentially the essence of our individuality, right, it's 310 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:14,119 Speaker 1: your I guess soul uh and Davis actually in his 311 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:18,120 Speaker 1: text referred to it as quote the governing thought, memory, 312 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:22,399 Speaker 1: and sentiments of a person. However, if anything were to 313 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 1: happen to that before you physically die, you might become 314 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 1: a zombie. And that supposedly this ritual is the the 315 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:35,680 Speaker 1: voodoo priest taking the little Good Angel out of you 316 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:40,640 Speaker 1: and enslaving you as such. Yeah, it seems to definitely 317 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:45,360 Speaker 1: play into just humans trying to figure out what's going 318 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:49,880 Speaker 1: on with cognition, what's going on with identity in cases 319 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:52,359 Speaker 1: where say, you know, there's been an injury and an 320 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:54,439 Speaker 1: individual is clearly not in their own head, like what 321 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: happened to the person that you were physically you know, 322 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 1: what's the link between the mind and brain? Like? Essentially, 323 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:05,680 Speaker 1: this is the voodon h take on the mind body problem. Absolutely. 324 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 1: In fact, the idea is that when you die, the 325 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 1: big Good Angel is the one that goes to heaven. 326 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 1: The little Good Angel actually like sticks around for a 327 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 1: couple of days, roughly three days, and as such, some 328 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 1: relatives will sit by the grave side of their loved 329 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 1: ones for that many days because they feel like they're 330 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:26,680 Speaker 1: still there and they you know, need to be with 331 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:29,640 Speaker 1: them that part of their personality, the individual part of them. 332 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:32,120 Speaker 1: And that definitely I can see where that would play 333 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 1: into mourning for the dead, because you're you're struck by 334 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:38,919 Speaker 1: this dichotomy of that's the person that I loved and 335 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:41,679 Speaker 1: the person I still love but they're not there, but 336 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 1: they still but I still feel this connection to this 337 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:48,440 Speaker 1: body exactly right. Uh. And so what's really important about 338 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 1: Davis's research is that it's a combination of looking at 339 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:53,880 Speaker 1: the biology that's going on here with this what we're 340 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:57,399 Speaker 1: gonna talk about as zombie powder, as well as the 341 00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:02,640 Speaker 1: cultural resonance that's here and how that plays into the society. 342 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 1: So the first thing that's important to understand that he 343 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:08,919 Speaker 1: states is that becoming a zombie is a loss of 344 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 1: individuality that is worse than death. So this is a 345 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:18,160 Speaker 1: punishment that they they use for breaking the largest taboos 346 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:20,679 Speaker 1: of their community. Right, It's a It's also seen as 347 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:23,640 Speaker 1: a form of social control. So maybe you're a criminal, 348 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 1: or maybe a rapist or something like that something that 349 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 1: is affecting the community, right, and so the Voodoo priests 350 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:34,679 Speaker 1: subsequently enslaves you as such to take that problem away 351 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 1: from the community. Yeah, a lot of the stuff that 352 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: you you know, seeing a lot of Caribbean cultures and 353 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 1: uh and and and also in the vood and religion 354 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:45,920 Speaker 1: is that, of course you have a mix of of 355 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: of African belief systems mingled with some Christian beliefs systems 356 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 1: and uh. Ian davis is follow up book, Passage of Darkness, 357 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 1: The Ethnobiology of the Haitian Zombie. He argues that, Yeah, 358 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:01,119 Speaker 1: getting into what you just just said that it it 359 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:04,359 Speaker 1: ties into a long history of secret societies, uh that 360 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 1: stretched back to the earliest days of slavery, societies that 361 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:10,199 Speaker 1: carried with them more of an emphasis on African beliefs 362 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:12,919 Speaker 1: that carried with them. Uh some of this uh you know, 363 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 1: this folkloric pharmaceutical knowledge. Uh. And this was especially the 364 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:22,119 Speaker 1: case with escaped slaves such as the Maroons who lived 365 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 1: deep in the mountains sort of had their own outsider 366 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:28,119 Speaker 1: culture that they established. And that it's here especially that 367 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 1: you would see zombie powder used as a means of 368 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 1: punishing individuals who who broke with tradition, broke the broke 369 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 1: their their laws, and and of course all punishment, all 370 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 1: capital punishment, is essentially symbolic. But the symbolity of this 371 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 1: is very potent um. It's been an escaped slave culture. 372 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:50,640 Speaker 1: In the same way that you would here it argued 373 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 1: in American culture that capital punishment is a deterrence. You 374 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 1: could argue the same thing here, right that you the 375 00:20:57,840 --> 00:20:59,399 Speaker 1: last thing that you would want to do is have 376 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 1: your individual reality taken away from you and be under 377 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:06,200 Speaker 1: the thrall of somebody else. So subsequently that would keep 378 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,359 Speaker 1: you from doing bad things. So there's two things I 379 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:11,440 Speaker 1: want to note here before we go on. The first 380 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:13,920 Speaker 1: is that I think that Davis is a really fascinating 381 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 1: individual because of this sort of cross disciplinary approach that 382 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:21,920 Speaker 1: he took to this study. Now I know that that's 383 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:26,439 Speaker 1: part of what tweaked certain scholars the wrong way in 384 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 1: the eighties and made them upset with him, and we'll 385 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 1: talk about that as well, uh, But but I think 386 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:34,680 Speaker 1: that it's an interesting approach and I'm glad that he 387 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 1: did it to at least sort of set a standard 388 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 1: for other people to do the same thing down the road. 389 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 1: But maybe a little more carefully with their methodology. The 390 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,400 Speaker 1: second thing is that we have to say that all 391 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:51,719 Speaker 1: that stuff that we just mentioned about voodoo culture, it 392 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:56,399 Speaker 1: has been heavily criticized. At least Davis's interpretation of it 393 00:21:56,480 --> 00:22:00,399 Speaker 1: has been as just being a complete misrepresentation, and that 394 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 1: it's something that as a person who just kind of 395 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:06,359 Speaker 1: came in and visited the culture for a number of 396 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 1: years and then went and wrote this book, that he 397 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:12,879 Speaker 1: didn't necessarily understand all the complexities of it. Yeah, I 398 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 1: mean he was he was a young buck jumping out 399 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: into the world and uh, and a lot of the 400 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:19,919 Speaker 1: criticisms I was looking at they often referred to him 401 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 1: as in Indiana Jones, and not not in a favorable lights, 402 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:25,400 Speaker 1: saying that like, here's a here's this young rock star 403 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:27,960 Speaker 1: with a crazy hat. He's going out and he thinks 404 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:30,399 Speaker 1: he's doing important academic work, but he's not. He's just, 405 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,399 Speaker 1: you know, he's just he's a little reckless, is the idea. 406 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 1: And based on what I was reading about his second 407 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 1: book that I mentioned, the pathogeist darkness, yeah he uh, 408 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 1: he apparently calmed down a lot by that point or 409 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 1: refined himself, became more in keeping with the expectations of 410 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 1: of his academic critics. Yeah, this is a good opportunity 411 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:52,879 Speaker 1: to sort of get into a little bit more about 412 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:56,159 Speaker 1: what happened with Davis in the following years. He's a 413 00:22:56,160 --> 00:23:01,440 Speaker 1: fascinating individual. National Geographic has given him the title Explorer 414 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:05,359 Speaker 1: of the Millennium. That's a pretty awesome title. Uh So, 415 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 1: as as you would expect from the title, he's still exploring, 416 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 1: going all around the world. He's an ethnobotanist and an anthropologist. 417 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:18,959 Speaker 1: He's gone everywhere, Polynesia, Tibet. He just does tons of 418 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:21,879 Speaker 1: similar studies to this one that he started off with 419 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:24,400 Speaker 1: in Haiti. And in fact, my understanding is that he's 420 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 1: been working on some kind of four part documentary for 421 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:30,679 Speaker 1: the last couple of years, and uh that showcases various 422 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: cultures from around the world and sort of how, um, 423 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 1: how human nature evolves in these different ways. Yeah. Ultimately, 424 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 1: even though the Indiana Jones thing was used as a 425 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:44,920 Speaker 1: as a as a dig at him um early on, 426 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 1: like really, who else has call and he's the Explorer 427 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:51,359 Speaker 1: the Millennium? Well and and and that's the other thing too, 428 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:55,359 Speaker 1: when I think about the Indiana Jones application, right, like 429 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 1: like remember those scenes in the Indiana Jones movies where 430 00:23:57,600 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 1: he would like go back to the college and he 431 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,399 Speaker 1: would be in his stuffy suit and like about to 432 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:04,879 Speaker 1: teach class or whatever, and all the students were fawning 433 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 1: all over him. But like you get the sense that 434 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,879 Speaker 1: Davis doesn't really have that part. Davis doesn't like go 435 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,160 Speaker 1: back and like climb into a tweed suit and hold 436 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:20,199 Speaker 1: office hours. Maybe he does so. Originally Davis was actually 437 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 1: a Canadian firefighter, but then he moved on and went 438 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:27,640 Speaker 1: to Harvard University. And while he was at Harvard studying, 439 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 1: he would apparently this is ac cording of the research, 440 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 1: he just often visit Columbia, the nation Columbia at the 441 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 1: school and study cocaine and hallucinogen. So you get an 442 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 1: idea of where his interests lie right away. I think 443 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:43,440 Speaker 1: this is like a late seventies uh. In nineteen seventy five, 444 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 1: this was when the sort of quote unquote Serpent and 445 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 1: the Rainbow storyline started to come together. He was funded 446 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 1: by something that was called the Zombie Project, that's it's 447 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 1: real title, via the Botanical Museum at Harvard and the 448 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 1: Americans U, sorry, the American National Science Foundation, and there 449 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,399 Speaker 1: were some others in there as well. Um, I think 450 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: if I remember correctly correctly from reading some of the research, 451 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 1: that he might have had some private interests in there 452 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,720 Speaker 1: as well. Um. Basically, the idea is, like what we 453 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:18,880 Speaker 1: said earlier, they wanted him to go and find out 454 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 1: what was up with this zombie powder so that they 455 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: could potentially use it to revolutionize surgery. So Davis goes 456 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:28,879 Speaker 1: down there, and let's see, so he first gets funded 457 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 1: in seventy five and he publicly hypothesizes about zombies in 458 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:36,679 Speaker 1: eighty three. So he's down there for roughly eight years, 459 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 1: back and forth kind of doing research understanding the culture. Uh, 460 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 1: and it's an eighty three that he publishes something and says, 461 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:47,760 Speaker 1: you know what, the zombie thing. It's a real thing. 462 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 1: It's not just a myth, and it can be explained 463 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 1: both by science and cultural analysis. And this is Davis's 464 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 1: idea of how it works. This is how he broke 465 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 1: it down essentially. So it starts it's off with what 466 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 1: we just talked about, the cultural belief in zombies as 467 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 1: part of the culture. Right, you have to be in 468 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 1: that culture and truly believe, you have to have faith 469 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:15,120 Speaker 1: that that will work. And that's how society has run. Yeah, 470 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 1: this ties into a lot of what we've mentioned before 471 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 1: about the paranormal experience. Um, anyone can have these sort 472 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:25,679 Speaker 1: of these strange hallucination experiences or or some sort of 473 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 1: altered state of perception. But then how does how do 474 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:30,720 Speaker 1: you make sense of it? And then that's where you 475 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 1: have to turn to your whatever cultural scripts are available. So, 476 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,120 Speaker 1: like the individual who sees lights in the woods, depending 477 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 1: on where you are in time, where you are in 478 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 1: the world, you might interpret Thosese fairies as aliens, as ghosts, 479 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:45,960 Speaker 1: as um or as just people with flashlights looking for 480 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,480 Speaker 1: you in the woods. Right, it's whatever narrative is available 481 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,120 Speaker 1: to you to understand it. That's what culture is, essentially, 482 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:55,640 Speaker 1: it's how we understand the world. Yeah, so let's put 483 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 1: put yourself in that situation. Then you're a part of 484 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 1: that culture and you have complete faith that voodoo priests 485 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 1: have the ability to make zombies or make you the 486 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:10,119 Speaker 1: living dead. All right, then here comes the biological factor. 487 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:15,440 Speaker 1: So Davis hypothesized that victims were given two types of powder. 488 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 1: The first he called the before powder, and this was 489 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:23,159 Speaker 1: what rendered the victims helpless and paralyzed them. So they 490 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,480 Speaker 1: seemed lifeless. Okay, So the idea here is that like 491 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 1: they're given this powder and it seems like they just died, 492 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:36,959 Speaker 1: like their their body slows to a crawl, and their 493 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:39,920 Speaker 1: their neighbors all think and family think of this person 494 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:44,520 Speaker 1: just passed away. Right. Davis collected eight samples of this 495 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:48,240 Speaker 1: particular powder, and he claims that they all contained the 496 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:57,159 Speaker 1: following ingredients human remains, tree frogs, worms, toads, and the 497 00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 1: last and this is a really important one for fish. 498 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 1: I feel like the rest of the stuff is more 499 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 1: or less garnish. It's really the puffer fish, I think, um. 500 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 1: And the reason why is because puffer fish contains something 501 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 1: that's called tetro dotoxin. Uh. If you've ever had Japanese 502 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 1: foo goo fish, have you ever had that before? I 503 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,199 Speaker 1: have not, but I've watched the Simpsons though they do 504 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:24,680 Speaker 1: it on there. Yeah, I've seen video of people, you know, 505 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 1: like doing it as kind of a dare thing before. 506 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 1: But it's apparently cuisine that's prepared. Uh. This fish also 507 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:33,879 Speaker 1: has tetra to toxin and when you eat it, it 508 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,960 Speaker 1: provides a warm, euphoric sensation, but sometimes it can result 509 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 1: in mild paralysis. And I think sometimes it's even worse, right, Yeah, 510 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 1: I mean it's it's a neurotoxin, and researchers have looked 511 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 1: to it as a potential pain management drug to aid 512 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 1: in chemotherapy. According to a two thousand thirteen study from 513 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 1: John Thuer Cancer Center, by blocking the sodium channels, tetro 514 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 1: dotoxin limits the conduction of pain signals to the central 515 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 1: nervous system, offering relief from pain related to damage caused 516 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: by chemotherapy. And and so, yeah, it's it's making you 517 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 1: feel less. It making me feel like you're you're fading 518 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,840 Speaker 1: out of this world, names your senses. And so I 519 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 1: think Davis's hypothesis was that given enough of this stuff, 520 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 1: but in the appropriate doses, that you would appear to 521 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 1: be dead but not actually die. Yeah, Like it's it's 522 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 1: pretty deadly in the pupper fish because it's it's used 523 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 1: as a deterrent against predators. In that study that I 524 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 1: was just citing, they said it's just a fraction of 525 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 1: the dosage that you would get from eating a popper fish. 526 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 1: So just to show you how powerful just a just 527 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 1: a small amount of it would be potentially enough to 528 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 1: dull the pain. And so this is an interesting little 529 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 1: side note from one of the readings I did about Davis, 530 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 1: but apparently one of his colleagues was the one who 531 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 1: pointed this out to him and said, have you ever 532 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 1: read the end of the James Bond novel Doctor No? 533 00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:00,240 Speaker 1: And Davis was like, no, I haven't, and he said, oh, well, 534 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 1: you know, uh spoilers for Dr No, which is what 535 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,960 Speaker 1: like fifty sixty years old. But m James Bond gets 536 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 1: stabbed with a blade that's coated in tetra to toxin 537 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:11,480 Speaker 1: and it seems like he dies, but in fact, the 538 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 1: tetra to toxin just makes it seems like makes it 539 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:18,480 Speaker 1: seem like he, uh, he's dead, when he's actually just paralyzed. 540 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 1: The main thing I remember from reading that book is 541 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,240 Speaker 1: that Bond fights the giant squid at the end, which 542 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 1: I always level anytime anyone anyone charges that a Bond 543 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 1: film gets a little too silly to say, hey, and 544 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 1: there in the original Doctor notebook he fights a giant. 545 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 1: We certainly should do some science of James Bond down 546 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 1: the road, maybe when what is it Specter? Maybe when 547 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 1: Spector rolls out? Okay, so that's the before powder and 548 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 1: Davis's theory here the after powder. He never collected any 549 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:48,720 Speaker 1: of it. He doesn't know what's in it, but he 550 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 1: from his cultural studies, believes that it's out there and 551 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 1: his belief is that it contains deta. Now, Detera also 552 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:02,560 Speaker 1: is commonly known as the zombies cucumber, and apparently this 553 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 1: is something that was used in West Africa UH to 554 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:11,200 Speaker 1: induce stupors, violent hallucinations, and sometimes death. And the idea 555 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 1: is that slaves brought it over from Africa to Haiti 556 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 1: and that deterro was now grown there and he saw 557 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 1: it as being something that was you know, also used 558 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 1: to sort of continue this appearance of death. Yeah, Deterra 559 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 1: has been used for centuries in various cultures as both 560 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 1: a poison and hallucinogen UH and deteria intoxication typically produces delirium. 561 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 1: So we're looking at a complete inability to differentiate reality 562 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:42,360 Speaker 1: from fantasy. And that's that's frank delirium as UH as 563 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 1: as contrasted to just typical hallucination, UM can cause hyperthermia, 564 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 1: it can cause excessive heart rate, bizarre possibly violent behavior. UM. 565 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 1: It can also result in a painful photophobia that can 566 00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 1: last several days and pronounced amnesia is also another commonly 567 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:04,480 Speaker 1: sided effects, so you can easily see how all of 568 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:09,520 Speaker 1: these uh could play into the experience of being the 569 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:13,200 Speaker 1: walking enslave dead right exactly. So you've got the cultural 570 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:17,200 Speaker 1: uh sort of base to this recipe, and then you 571 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:20,320 Speaker 1: add in the tetra to toxin which paralyzes you, and 572 00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:22,800 Speaker 1: then you throw in the de toura aspect, which could 573 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 1: potentially be a strong enough hallucinogen to to really confuse you. 574 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 1: Um have you ever played the follow up video games 575 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 1: before that? I think you can get to toura in 576 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 1: that as like an ingredient that you use to make like, um, 577 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 1: like a some kind of healing recipe or something like that. 578 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:42,840 Speaker 1: But if I remember correctly, it also kind of makes 579 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:45,240 Speaker 1: you have hallucinations. I remember getting into the weeds a 580 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 1: bit on the whole recipes for things. Yeah, it's incredibly complicated, 581 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:55,960 Speaker 1: but they've somebody over there has done their research. Uh So. Yeah. 582 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 1: People criticize Davis's research though, they say this is faulty, 583 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,720 Speaker 1: and here's why. First of all, the Sky was probably 584 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 1: talking to some unreliable subjects while he was over there, 585 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 1: people who were taking advantage of of his lack of 586 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 1: knowledge and probably spinning stories. For him or just looking 587 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:15,600 Speaker 1: for media attention. Yeah, I mean he's also exploring something 588 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 1: that is essentially magic and fantasy that's tied up in 589 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:22,080 Speaker 1: mythology and folklore, and so there's a lot of gray 590 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:26,920 Speaker 1: area there between reality and fantasy. Yeah, exactly. And there 591 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:33,800 Speaker 1: was a really kind of almost means spirited accusation that 592 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,960 Speaker 1: his data was falsified about the tetra to toxin and 593 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:42,240 Speaker 1: that he had purposefully uh exaggerated the levels of tetra 594 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:44,160 Speaker 1: to toxin that were found in the powders that he 595 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:46,760 Speaker 1: brought back from Haiti, and in some cases might might 596 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:51,600 Speaker 1: have even lied. And there's you know, he obviously rejects 597 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 1: those claims, and uh, you know, it's never been proven 598 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:59,680 Speaker 1: or anything, but there's been studies since on on this 599 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,719 Speaker 1: particular phenomenon, these powders and whether or not they have 600 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,960 Speaker 1: you know, particular effects that could help in medicine. So 601 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:09,120 Speaker 1: I don't know necessarily that I buy that he made 602 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:11,800 Speaker 1: up the tetra to talks and stuff. Yeah, that seems 603 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 1: that maybe going a bit far, especially considering you know, 604 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 1: where his career has gone since then. Like this doesn't 605 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 1: strike me as a as a guy who would have 606 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:23,640 Speaker 1: intentionally done that. Yeah. So, like I said, there's been 607 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,680 Speaker 1: other studies. They're pretty interesting. They break down all of 608 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:29,120 Speaker 1: the various components that are in the powders and what 609 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 1: they could do um. But one of the studies that 610 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 1: I read took a very measured look at these components 611 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:40,800 Speaker 1: also discounted the whole zombification aspect. They said, this is 612 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 1: either a combination of um mistaken identity in which like, 613 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:47,799 Speaker 1: somebody actually dies and then they think they see like 614 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:50,160 Speaker 1: their cousin but it's not them or something like that, 615 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:54,239 Speaker 1: or just plain mental illness and that they just there. 616 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:57,920 Speaker 1: Their cultural understanding of mental illnesses is different than ours 617 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:00,880 Speaker 1: and they don't realize how it's affecting the person. But 618 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:04,560 Speaker 1: so far, we don't have that really conclusive study where 619 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,520 Speaker 1: someone rounds up a bunch of people who believe in 620 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:10,879 Speaker 1: zombies and then just poisons the hell out of them. 621 00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:13,800 Speaker 1: What happened. One of the things that I'm curious about 622 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:16,480 Speaker 1: is I have to admit that, you know, I don't 623 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:20,560 Speaker 1: have a deep understanding of Haitian culture. So I'm curious 624 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:23,960 Speaker 1: if now, almost forty years later, if a lot of 625 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:28,800 Speaker 1: these cultural touchstones still hold residents indeed, and like to 626 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:32,920 Speaker 1: what extent has the balance between the traditional folkloric beliefs 627 00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:37,080 Speaker 1: and Catholicism shifted. Um, yeah, it would be interesting to 628 00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:41,919 Speaker 1: see a modern revisitation of this topic. Yeah, I think 629 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,920 Speaker 1: it would be interesting as well. I suspect, given the 630 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:48,360 Speaker 1: stigma around it, that most graduate students are going to 631 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:52,360 Speaker 1: be advised to avoid it by their by their you know, 632 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:56,920 Speaker 1: faculty mentors. But um, you know, who knows, maybe Davis 633 00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:00,760 Speaker 1: will influence somebody else to go do a similar study. 634 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:04,160 Speaker 1: Right now, He's put that zombie thing behind him. He's 635 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:08,080 Speaker 1: mainly known as an ecological campaigner. He's sponsored by National 636 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,839 Speaker 1: and Geographic, so you actually tend to see like articles 637 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:12,960 Speaker 1: or kind of essays and stuff like that by him 638 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,520 Speaker 1: in in that GEO. He's gone a number of Ted talks, 639 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:19,080 Speaker 1: so he's out there. He travels around. Uh and like 640 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:21,719 Speaker 1: I said earlier, he's working on this multipart documentary about 641 00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:24,239 Speaker 1: the diversity of cultures and human belief in the world, 642 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:28,080 Speaker 1: which I think could be amazing. I actually wonder because 643 00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:30,880 Speaker 1: the thing I read about said this in I'm wondering 644 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 1: if it's since been finished and I just missed it. 645 00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:35,200 Speaker 1: So if it's out there and you've seen it, let 646 00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:38,839 Speaker 1: us know, because I'd love to see it. So all right, 647 00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:44,279 Speaker 1: so we've laid out sort of the Wade Davis scientific 648 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:47,440 Speaker 1: explanation for the Serpent in the Rainbow how to make 649 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:51,279 Speaker 1: a zombie. Here's your formula, right, uh, and we're we're 650 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,800 Speaker 1: doing this in honor of West Craven. I love that movie. 651 00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:57,799 Speaker 1: He passed away this week and so this is sort 652 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:00,959 Speaker 1: of in memorium to him. So let's talk about how 653 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 1: this movie was made. Yeah, it's a god, it's a 654 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:06,920 Speaker 1: it's it's a fascinating story. It's hard to find like 655 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:11,040 Speaker 1: any real just definitive sources on it because when you 656 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:13,440 Speaker 1: get into the you know, the troubled history of various films, 657 00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:16,759 Speaker 1: unless you have like a clear cut documentary case, such 658 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:20,239 Speaker 1: as with Apocalypse Now, there's just a lot of you know, 659 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:23,480 Speaker 1: almost its own folklore regarding what happened and what went 660 00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 1: wrong and what eventually went right. And it is worth 661 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,880 Speaker 1: mentioning that ultimately, like this film worked because it was 662 00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:32,920 Speaker 1: budgeted at ten million, those seems to have come in 663 00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:35,520 Speaker 1: around US about a seven million in the end. You 664 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:38,279 Speaker 1: never hear that anymore right now. I'm not sure if 665 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:41,640 Speaker 1: that was because of budget cuts or Craven just being 666 00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:45,720 Speaker 1: really you know on his game, I suspect budget cuts. Uh, 667 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:47,719 Speaker 1: and it was, but even then it was set to 668 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:49,560 Speaker 1: be as big as film to date. So this was 669 00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:51,200 Speaker 1: this was a big deal for Crave. And this is 670 00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:54,359 Speaker 1: after Nightmare in Elm Street. Yeah. So my two key 671 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:56,680 Speaker 1: sources here, there's a book Tutle West Crave in the 672 00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:59,600 Speaker 1: Art of Horror by John Kenneth and the other sources 673 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:03,080 Speaker 1: Joe Bob Briggs, who shared a lot of who introduced 674 00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:05,520 Speaker 1: you to the movie in Yeah, and actually he shared 675 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:08,120 Speaker 1: a lot of this. Uh the well, just like the 676 00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:11,880 Speaker 1: mythology of the making of this film on a Monster 677 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:14,920 Speaker 1: Vision on TNT back in the U. This is the 678 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:18,000 Speaker 1: late nineties, I believe. And he has all the scripts 679 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:19,960 Speaker 1: for those available on his website, which will link to 680 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:22,560 Speaker 1: on the landing page for this episode. But he, uh, 681 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:24,920 Speaker 1: he laid it out like this. So you have this 682 00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,600 Speaker 1: guy David Ladd, and he acquires the rights to David's book. 683 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 1: He shows it to West and West Craven loves it. 684 00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:35,319 Speaker 1: Not only does he side decide that he wants to 685 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:38,239 Speaker 1: take the gig, he also wants to actually travel to 686 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:43,319 Speaker 1: Haiti and make it even though, according to Briggs, no 687 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:46,520 Speaker 1: American movie had been filmed within the borders of Haiti yet, 688 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,480 Speaker 1: if my understanding is correct, at that time, Haiti was 689 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:52,439 Speaker 1: in the middle of a civil war, I believe. So yeah, okay, 690 00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:54,000 Speaker 1: so I mean it was it was not a play 691 00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:56,399 Speaker 1: when when when Craven said this, a lot of people 692 00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:57,759 Speaker 1: were like, I don't know, if you really want to 693 00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:00,400 Speaker 1: shoot in Haiti, why don't you shoot in the Dominican public, 694 00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:02,400 Speaker 1: And he said, no, we're going through them. I'm in 695 00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:04,360 Speaker 1: love with the material. I want to make it authentic 696 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:06,680 Speaker 1: and I care about it. Let's go to Haiti and 697 00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:08,799 Speaker 1: do it. All right, I'd like to pause right there, 698 00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:11,160 Speaker 1: just I love this movie, but I don't know that 699 00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:14,400 Speaker 1: authentic is how I would describe its depiction of Haiti. 700 00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:19,960 Speaker 1: There's some pretty over the top cartoonish depictions of the 701 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:23,920 Speaker 1: culture over there. But okay, And so they go to 702 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:28,439 Speaker 1: Haiti and U and it's it's apparently just a kind 703 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:31,320 Speaker 1: of a troubled suit shoot from the get go, because 704 00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:35,759 Speaker 1: the crew is constantly either sick from food poisoning and 705 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:38,919 Speaker 1: various problems with food and water, or they're just they're 706 00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:42,480 Speaker 1: dealing with just extreme heat. So the environmental concerns are 707 00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:45,440 Speaker 1: are pretty rough. It's it's environmentally a pretty rough shoot. 708 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:50,600 Speaker 1: And then they're kind of sandwich between the Haitian military 709 00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:53,319 Speaker 1: and the locals for most of it, and they're trying 710 00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:55,120 Speaker 1: to to use the locals. There's a scene there, I 711 00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:58,200 Speaker 1: believe it's the opening scene with a big funeral procession. 712 00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:03,080 Speaker 1: They used two thousand extras Haitian extras. That scene is terrifying. 713 00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:05,600 Speaker 1: That's the scene that sticks with me the most at 714 00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:08,919 Speaker 1: anything in that movie. We'll see then the authenticity paid off, 715 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:11,520 Speaker 1: but they also, of course had to pay off the 716 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:15,480 Speaker 1: extras and um. According to Briggs, one of the problems 717 00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:18,520 Speaker 1: here is that it's you're not dealing with one agent 718 00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:22,840 Speaker 1: for all two thousand of these individuals. There are various representatives. 719 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:25,240 Speaker 1: So this guy here, he represents fifty of the extras, 720 00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:27,880 Speaker 1: this guy represents a hundred, and all of these different 721 00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:33,080 Speaker 1: representatives keep trying to renegotiate the terms, especially as the 722 00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:37,279 Speaker 1: shoot continues and they realize, hey, these guys are gonna leave. Um, 723 00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:39,799 Speaker 1: let's see if we can, you know, make the most 724 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:41,480 Speaker 1: out of this, because it's the paying gig, but it's 725 00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:43,560 Speaker 1: also it's it's gonna go away. Sure, and I would 726 00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:46,000 Speaker 1: imagine that bartering is probably a natural part of that 727 00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:50,680 Speaker 1: culture too, Yeah, I would imagine so. So they so 728 00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:53,600 Speaker 1: each time they bring these up, the representatives bring this 729 00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:58,399 Speaker 1: up and occasionally threatened strikes um, the producers raise their 730 00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:01,439 Speaker 1: their pay a little bit to keep them hat p um. 731 00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:03,719 Speaker 1: And then meanwhile the army is saying the Haitian army 732 00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:06,280 Speaker 1: is saying, hey, we can sit in troops. But Craven 733 00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:09,560 Speaker 1: and Company really don't like that idea because it's already 734 00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:11,640 Speaker 1: kind of a hostile situation. The last thing you need 735 00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:16,080 Speaker 1: is you know, potential blood bath. So yeah, for all 736 00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:19,960 Speaker 1: the like you know, uh mothers in the eighties and 737 00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:23,240 Speaker 1: nineties who are against West Craven and being a horrible 738 00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,640 Speaker 1: influence on their children, I think that was probably a 739 00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:31,680 Speaker 1: wise decision on his way. He wasn't, as I guess, um, 740 00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:36,800 Speaker 1: interested in capturing you know, violence for violence's sake. Yeah, 741 00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:40,160 Speaker 1: And so they turned on the army. They continue to 742 00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:43,279 Speaker 1: deal with these various leaders that are hit him up 743 00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:45,680 Speaker 1: for for more cash, and then one day the leaders 744 00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:48,000 Speaker 1: come to the product production office and they say they 745 00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:50,399 Speaker 1: want more money that night or they're going to riot. 746 00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:53,680 Speaker 1: And so this apparently escalates into like a scene where 747 00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:57,360 Speaker 1: David Lady acquired the rights and his servings producer on 748 00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:00,680 Speaker 1: this He's standing on top of a car talking to everyone, 749 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,279 Speaker 1: to the two thousand of these individuals with a bullhorn, 750 00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:06,719 Speaker 1: and they all have rocks ready maybe to pummeling with, 751 00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:09,719 Speaker 1: and he's urging them. Not Voriety promised them that the 752 00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:12,000 Speaker 1: money will will be there, and that's part of the 753 00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:14,080 Speaker 1: problem too. They don't have the money. They're having to 754 00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:16,600 Speaker 1: ship the money in from Miami so that they can 755 00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:20,680 Speaker 1: pay off everybody. Um. And meanwhile they're saying they're realizing, 756 00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:22,600 Speaker 1: all right, we've been here a month. This is not working. 757 00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:24,480 Speaker 1: Let's get out. So they're trying to get everybody out 758 00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:26,680 Speaker 1: of the country to head to the Dominican Republic to 759 00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:31,319 Speaker 1: finish the remaining three months of of shooting. UM. So, 760 00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:34,320 Speaker 1: do you think that this was just a money issue 761 00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:36,680 Speaker 1: or do you think that the Haitian extras that were 762 00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:39,200 Speaker 1: involved in this film had any sense of the kind 763 00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:42,840 Speaker 1: of exploitation their culture is receiving at the hands of 764 00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:44,759 Speaker 1: this film. I have a feeling and it's just kind 765 00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:48,160 Speaker 1: of an unbalanced situation. I mean that may have played 766 00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:52,120 Speaker 1: into it. I get the I get the impression it 767 00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:55,799 Speaker 1: was more of an unbalanced situation with with some some 768 00:42:55,880 --> 00:43:00,640 Speaker 1: problems with representation on the part of the locals. Uh 769 00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:05,800 Speaker 1: an intention obviously between the government and the Haitian people. Certainly, okay, 770 00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:09,839 Speaker 1: so they get most everybody out, but three people had 771 00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:12,680 Speaker 1: to stay in the production office essentially just barricaded in 772 00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:18,720 Speaker 1: there until every last villager was paid. And even weirder, 773 00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:20,880 Speaker 1: and this is like super like I'll say that this 774 00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:25,480 Speaker 1: is doubly alleged, but according to John Kenneth, Craven was 775 00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:29,239 Speaker 1: nearly forced to drink pigs blood in a voodoo ceremony 776 00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:31,880 Speaker 1: to appease the rioting extras. I don't know if I 777 00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:34,560 Speaker 1: believe that. I could not find another source to even 778 00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:37,320 Speaker 1: mention that, and Joe Bob didn't mention it on Monster Vision, 779 00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,760 Speaker 1: so I have my doubts. But it sounds a bit 780 00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:42,520 Speaker 1: over the top. You'd think that would be a story 781 00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:45,560 Speaker 1: that Wes Craven would tout as well, you know, something 782 00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:49,359 Speaker 1: he would definitely want to include on the DVD extras. Also, 783 00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:52,120 Speaker 1: it seems like they're their main concern was, Hey, we 784 00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:54,640 Speaker 1: want to be paid for our work, not so much. 785 00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:59,120 Speaker 1: I think the directors should drink pick yeah. Yeah, um, 786 00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:00,400 Speaker 1: so they get out of hay Eve a head of 787 00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:03,080 Speaker 1: the Dominican Republic. And I also want to point out 788 00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:09,000 Speaker 1: that also allegedly you had four individuals who who had 789 00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:13,640 Speaker 1: problems with curses or potential um insanity, like one guy 790 00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:15,520 Speaker 1: had to be sent back to the States. Apparently it 791 00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:19,600 Speaker 1: was raving paranoid for a few days. These were American 792 00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:22,840 Speaker 1: production members. Yeah, wow, okay, Yeah, And of course I 793 00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:24,600 Speaker 1: don't know to what extent. That's just like you got 794 00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:28,520 Speaker 1: food poisoning and you know, you're in a different care 795 00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:31,200 Speaker 1: you're in a super stressful situation and you just kind 796 00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:36,359 Speaker 1: of snap. Yeah. And Craven has apparently claimed before that 797 00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:38,680 Speaker 1: one of the local priests put a curse on him. 798 00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:41,280 Speaker 1: But again I don't know to what extent that's just stuff. Yeah, 799 00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:44,640 Speaker 1: that's how many horror movies have you heard that about? 800 00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:47,080 Speaker 1: I'm sure what's about to come out there? Green Inferno 801 00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:51,120 Speaker 1: from by Eli eli Roth. Yeah, that that's a movie 802 00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:54,320 Speaker 1: that looks like it has a very similar but probably 803 00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:58,320 Speaker 1: modern treatment of of another culture. And I wouldn't be 804 00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:00,640 Speaker 1: surprised if eli Roth tells p Pole that he was 805 00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:03,799 Speaker 1: cursed by somebody, It would not be surprised that if 806 00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:06,000 Speaker 1: he has not been cursed by by some sort of 807 00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:08,920 Speaker 1: a voodoo priest in the past, even before he did this. Yeah, 808 00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:14,560 Speaker 1: I mean, thumbs up to that video. But but anyway, 809 00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:18,319 Speaker 1: so various issues in Haiti, and then they finally get 810 00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:21,000 Speaker 1: to the Dominican Republic, and when first of all, they 811 00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:23,680 Speaker 1: arrived there and the archbishop shuts down the production for 812 00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:26,360 Speaker 1: three days because he says it's he decided it was 813 00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:29,320 Speaker 1: sacrilegious to make this kind of a movie on Easter weekend. 814 00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:33,200 Speaker 1: And then like a final blow, one of the Dominican 815 00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:37,279 Speaker 1: production assistants filed a lawsuit against the producers, and under 816 00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:39,920 Speaker 1: Dominican law at the time of the lawsuit was filed 817 00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:42,520 Speaker 1: against the foreigner. They arrested the foreigner and they went 818 00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:44,960 Speaker 1: to jail to the case went to trial. So the 819 00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:50,440 Speaker 1: producers were put under essentially house arrest, and according to 820 00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:54,520 Speaker 1: Joe Bob had to spread a little cash to actually 821 00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:56,960 Speaker 1: get out of the situation. Now you see why people 822 00:45:57,000 --> 00:45:59,239 Speaker 1: want to film in Atlanta so badly. Yeah, so it's 823 00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:02,880 Speaker 1: not just the tax breaks, there's no military tribunals are 824 00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:06,279 Speaker 1: putting under house rest, I mean, and you know he 825 00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:08,600 Speaker 1: didn't have to allectedly had a good crew, he didn't 826 00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:11,920 Speaker 1: have to deal with like insane Marlon Brando or anything. 827 00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:15,719 Speaker 1: So you hear stories like this, or you watch The 828 00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:18,440 Speaker 1: Heart of Darkness, the documentary about Apocalypse now, and it 829 00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:20,520 Speaker 1: makes me wonder, like, why does anybody try and make 830 00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:22,680 Speaker 1: a film because you're gonna have to go through this 831 00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:26,520 Speaker 1: horrendous process and in all an attempt to make some 832 00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:31,800 Speaker 1: sort of product that resembles your original intention. Yeah, it's right, exactly. 833 00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:36,160 Speaker 1: It's always a matter of compromise. Yeah, that is fascinating. 834 00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:40,040 Speaker 1: I have to just imagine that Craven was so passionate 835 00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:45,720 Speaker 1: about the material. Uh. I wonder too if Wade Davis 836 00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:48,719 Speaker 1: was even part of the production, like if he was 837 00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:50,759 Speaker 1: on set at all. I don't think he was. And 838 00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:53,120 Speaker 1: I know that he distanced himself from the movie when 839 00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:56,920 Speaker 1: it came out, you know, obviously because there's spoilers for 840 00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:59,399 Speaker 1: Serpent the Rainbow. But I believe the movie ends with 841 00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:02,640 Speaker 1: his care or summoning like a panther spirit or something 842 00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:05,240 Speaker 1: like that to beat the voodoo shaman that he's fighting. 843 00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:07,600 Speaker 1: I don't even remember remember that. Oh yeah, there's some 844 00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:10,520 Speaker 1: real silly stuff that goes on in there that is 845 00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:14,880 Speaker 1: clearly has nothing to do with Davis's uh scientific and 846 00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:21,319 Speaker 1: anthrop logic studies of Haiti. So there you have it. 847 00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:25,320 Speaker 1: The Serpent in the Rainbow, Zombie Powder, a troubled production history, 848 00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:29,280 Speaker 1: and uh you know, our tribute to Wes Craven. Yeah, 849 00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:32,120 Speaker 1: So I would love to hear from you the listeners, 850 00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:34,680 Speaker 1: let us know. You know, did West Craven have a 851 00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:38,920 Speaker 1: particular impact on your viewing on your childhood maybe as 852 00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:42,080 Speaker 1: he did ours? Or is there something about the story 853 00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:44,040 Speaker 1: behind the Serpent in the Rainbow that you know of 854 00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:46,319 Speaker 1: that we missed. I know that there's a lot more 855 00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:50,600 Speaker 1: out there regarding Davis's research and research that's been done 856 00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:54,560 Speaker 1: since then on these particular powders. So I'm curious if 857 00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:56,919 Speaker 1: anybody has new information for us that we could share 858 00:47:56,920 --> 00:47:59,480 Speaker 1: in a future listener mail episode. Yeah, and should we 859 00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:02,040 Speaker 1: do an episod it on the Hills? Have I? That 860 00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:06,480 Speaker 1: sounds good. That's another one where I enjoyed the remake 861 00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:09,440 Speaker 1: um and wasn't too crazy about the original. I think 862 00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:11,880 Speaker 1: he was involved in the remakes, he produced it, yeah, 863 00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:15,200 Speaker 1: and I thought that it was pretty solid. So there 864 00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:17,040 Speaker 1: you have it. Hey, As usually, you can always check 865 00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:18,840 Speaker 1: us out at Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 866 00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:21,319 Speaker 1: That's the mothership. That's where you'll find the landing page 867 00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:24,480 Speaker 1: for this episode with all those links we mentioned, links 868 00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:27,800 Speaker 1: to the some of the studies as well. You'll find videos. 869 00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:30,600 Speaker 1: You'll find blog posts as well as links out to 870 00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:32,880 Speaker 1: our various social media accounts. Right you can get in 871 00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:36,200 Speaker 1: touch with us on Twitter, Tumbler, and Facebook, and on 872 00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:39,719 Speaker 1: all those channels we are blow the Mind. Or you 873 00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:42,600 Speaker 1: can just write to us the old fashioned way at 874 00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:49,080 Speaker 1: blow the Mind at how stuff works dot com for 875 00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:51,560 Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics. Does it 876 00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:58,719 Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com