WEBVTT - 5. Give 'Em Hell 0:00:02.480 --> 0:00:05.400 Trey Quinn, the black nationalist who is among the organizers 0:00:05.400 --> 0:00:08.520 of Denver's racial justice protests, is the first to suspect 0:00:08.560 --> 0:00:13.560 that Mickey Windecker isn't a badass ANTIFA warrior. Trey doesn't 0:00:13.560 --> 0:00:17.600 have any concrete evidence, always got as a hunch there's 0:00:17.640 --> 0:00:22.479 just something off about Mickey. And so I am told 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:25.800 by a couple of friends that Mickey's got some suspicious 0:00:25.800 --> 0:00:29.840 connections and ties that they're unsure of. They don't know 0:00:29.840 --> 0:00:32.120 if we should be doing any actions with them specifically. 0:00:32.680 --> 0:00:35.080 So Trey comes up with a test for Mickey. I'm 0:00:35.120 --> 0:00:37.120 gonna call Mickey and I'm gonna propose something, and then 0:00:37.159 --> 0:00:39.800 I'm gonna see what happens. Trey meets up with Mickey 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:41.879 at one of the demonstrations and tells him that he 0:00:41.920 --> 0:00:47.199 has concerns the protesters aren't being radical enough. This peaceful 0:00:47.280 --> 0:00:52.839 protest stuff, it ain't working. What if we did more? 0:00:53.640 --> 0:00:57.040 And so I start speaking in hypothetical and like, hypothetically, 0:00:57.760 --> 0:01:00.680 what if this happened? What if an enclave was lit 0:01:00.720 --> 0:01:02.880 on fire in the middle of the night. And he 0:01:03.000 --> 0:01:04.760 was like, oh, yeah, I got some guys who could 0:01:04.760 --> 0:01:06.120 probably do that. You know what, I'm saying, who were 0:01:06.120 --> 0:01:10.280 probably down? And so at this point I recognize my 0:01:10.360 --> 0:01:13.240 vague language in his specific language, and so he's trying 0:01:13.280 --> 0:01:15.720 to lead me to say specific things, and so I 0:01:15.800 --> 0:01:18.920 just still keep in a vague I'm like, well, hypothetically, 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:21.679 if you were down to do something like that, you 0:01:21.720 --> 0:01:24.039 know what I'm saying, like, could we get it done? 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:26.240 And he was like, oh yeah, you know what I'm saying. 0:01:26.240 --> 0:01:28.080 I got the right guy for the job. This is 0:01:28.080 --> 0:01:31.800 how he's talking. So once we're done, I'm like, I 0:01:32.160 --> 0:01:35.360 think he's I think he's fucking suspicious. I knew during 0:01:35.360 --> 0:01:37.520 that in the middle of that conversation. I knew because 0:01:37.520 --> 0:01:39.280 he was he was trying to get it to happen. 0:01:40.120 --> 0:01:42.520 He was just waiting for me to set the date, 0:01:42.640 --> 0:01:46.520 the time that meeting spot. And then for sure he 0:01:46.560 --> 0:01:54.600 was trying to get it to happen. I'm Trevor Aaronson 0:01:55.080 --> 0:02:11.240 from Western Sound and I Heart Podcasts. This is Alphabet Boys, 0:02:21.000 --> 0:02:29.160 episode five. Give him hell. If you're willing to accept 0:02:29.200 --> 0:02:34.280 the FBI's internal reports as accurate. Then Mickey didn't appear 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:37.320 to realize that he'd failed tray Quinn's test. In fact, 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:41.040 Mickey and the FBI seemed to take Tray seriously. In 0:02:41.120 --> 0:02:44.560 an internal FBI report, Scott Dahlstrom, the agent who was 0:02:44.600 --> 0:02:48.760 Mickey's handler, describes Tray's hypothetical question to Mickey, what if 0:02:48.800 --> 0:02:51.959 an enclave was lit on fire in the middle of 0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:56.639 the night as and I quote a fire bomb plan 0:02:57.639 --> 0:03:04.560 as if it were an actual plan. So Mickey's primary 0:03:04.560 --> 0:03:07.120 goal as an FBI informant is to gather evidence that 0:03:07.160 --> 0:03:11.600 demonstrators are about to or are willing to commit violence, 0:03:12.280 --> 0:03:14.400 and a way to push people in that direction is 0:03:14.440 --> 0:03:19.120 by subtly encouraging violence while sewing distrust. This stuff with 0:03:19.160 --> 0:03:21.280 Trey and the fire bomb plot is happening. In late 0:03:21.320 --> 0:03:24.680 August twenty twenty, about three months after Mickey first arrived 0:03:24.720 --> 0:03:28.200 on the scene in Denver, Mickey had by now sidled 0:03:28.280 --> 0:03:31.119 up to activists with the Young Democratic Socialists of America 0:03:31.440 --> 0:03:35.680 or y DSA. Mickey's association with the y DSA activists 0:03:35.960 --> 0:03:39.400 was critical to his ability to infiltrate the protesters. His 0:03:39.520 --> 0:03:42.880 new y DSA friends had given him credibility, which he 0:03:42.960 --> 0:03:45.560 badly needed in order to maintain his cover as an 0:03:45.560 --> 0:03:50.920 ANTIFA warrior. Because let's be clear, this Mickey dude, he 0:03:50.960 --> 0:03:55.480 was suspicious Mickey dressed like a biker. He often used 0:03:55.520 --> 0:04:00.680 crude language that isn't tolerated within the activist groups, including racist, homophobic, 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:06.840 and transphobic splurs. Plus, Mickey was old, a guy approaching 0:04:06.880 --> 0:04:09.760 fifty in a crowd of protesters who were mostly teens 0:04:09.800 --> 0:04:13.960 and twenty somethings. But Mickey's association with his y DSA 0:04:14.040 --> 0:04:17.240 friends acted as a kind of shield against suspicion. The 0:04:17.279 --> 0:04:20.040 other activist would see Micky hanging around with these young allies, 0:04:20.480 --> 0:04:24.240 and so the thinking went, if they trusted him, then 0:04:24.320 --> 0:04:28.840 Mickey must be legit right. As a part of Mickey's 0:04:28.839 --> 0:04:32.080 ploy to entrap protesters, he participates in a group on 0:04:32.120 --> 0:04:35.760 an encrypted messaging app that includes his new y DSA friends. 0:04:36.839 --> 0:04:39.520 Mickey tells everyone in the chat about how Trey is 0:04:39.520 --> 0:04:42.760 planning some sort of fire bomb plot, and Mickey suggests 0:04:42.920 --> 0:04:44.880 that they all meet for dinner to talk it out. 0:04:45.120 --> 0:04:47.680 I think it was at a Chili's or Applebee's. This 0:04:47.760 --> 0:04:51.120 is zeb Hal and for the record, it's a Chili's 0:04:51.240 --> 0:04:55.400 according to the FBI's internal files. So zeb drives the chilies. 0:04:56.120 --> 0:04:58.320 Then you know, I meet him at this restaurant, and 0:04:58.560 --> 0:05:01.080 you know, they say, hey, just talked to Trey and 0:05:01.200 --> 0:05:03.560 he said he wanted to go blow up a white 0:05:03.600 --> 0:05:05.880 supremacist bar and he wanted us to help him out. 0:05:06.520 --> 0:05:09.560 And you know, I was like, holy fucking shit. Just 0:05:09.680 --> 0:05:12.760 to be crystal clear about this, Trey didn't mention the 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:15.440 fire bomb plot to any of the y DSA kids, 0:05:15.720 --> 0:05:18.720 as far as I could corroborate, only to Mickey as 0:05:18.800 --> 0:05:22.360 part of the test. Mickey then, and I'm connecting dots here, 0:05:22.440 --> 0:05:24.200 but I believe this is the accurate course of events. 0:05:24.760 --> 0:05:27.360 Mickey tells the y DSA activists about what Trey is 0:05:27.360 --> 0:05:31.800 supposedly planning, the white supremacist bar as a target that 0:05:31.839 --> 0:05:35.560 appears to be Mickey's invention. The FBI claims in its 0:05:35.560 --> 0:05:38.240 internal report that Mickey tells zeb and the y DSA 0:05:38.279 --> 0:05:41.320 activists to stay away from Trey. Although it's not stated 0:05:41.400 --> 0:05:44.200 specifically in the report, the way it's written suggest that 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:46.560 Mickey did this out of concern that Trey is violent, 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:50.160 that the fire bomb plot is real, and so stay 0:05:50.160 --> 0:05:54.560 away kids, that kind of thing. But that's not the 0:05:54.560 --> 0:05:57.040 way Mickey frames is warning about trade to this group 0:05:57.040 --> 0:06:01.400 he's gathered at Chili's. Instead, Mickey invent something out of 0:06:01.440 --> 0:06:05.279 thin air. He tells them that they thinks Trey might 0:06:05.279 --> 0:06:09.560 be working for the FBI. Mickey seemed like super concerned, 0:06:09.640 --> 0:06:13.039 like Trey was an informant. Mickey reminds everyone that Trey 0:06:13.360 --> 0:06:17.120 is a felon, and as a felon, Mickey claims he's 0:06:17.120 --> 0:06:20.479 gotten incentive to be an informant. And just look here 0:06:20.480 --> 0:06:23.680 he is talking about a fire bomb plot. The gagulet 0:06:23.760 --> 0:06:27.839 Chili's seems to agree. Trey this leader of the demonstrations 0:06:27.839 --> 0:06:30.920 in Denver, The guy must be a snitch. Then I 0:06:30.920 --> 0:06:35.000 started getting concerns about it. Mickey is trying to discredit Trey. 0:06:36.040 --> 0:06:38.320 Trey had always been upfront with activists that he had 0:06:38.320 --> 0:06:41.040 a criminal record. He had even told Mickey about it. 0:06:41.600 --> 0:06:44.360 Here's Tray again, home a felon, so I don't keep 0:06:44.400 --> 0:06:48.320 my identity secret. Back when Trey was a college student, 0:06:48.480 --> 0:06:51.279 he was into the rave scene and into drugs. He 0:06:51.400 --> 0:06:54.920 sold drugs too, and participated in some robberies, but by 0:06:54.960 --> 0:06:57.279 twenty ten he'd stopped using and he was trying to 0:06:57.279 --> 0:06:59.600 go straight. That's about when a friend of his was 0:06:59.640 --> 0:07:03.039 short on cash and face eviction. Trey wanted to help, 0:07:03.400 --> 0:07:05.960 so we called one of his old contacts and so 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:08.160 I called up my homie and I was like, hey, 0:07:08.360 --> 0:07:09.880 you know, we're short on some money. If you can 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:11.880 spot us some then I'll get you back. And he 0:07:12.000 --> 0:07:14.640 was like, hold on, let me call my homie. He's like, 0:07:14.680 --> 0:07:17.040 this dude got me. If you can get him for me, 0:07:17.120 --> 0:07:19.160 you just keep whatever whatever he gets. I just want 0:07:19.200 --> 0:07:21.360 to get backs, and so I was like, all right, 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:24.480 I'll do it. So basically, Tray's friend gives him the 0:07:24.520 --> 0:07:26.680 name of a guy who had ripped him off. Trey's 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:31.160 friend just wants revenge. Rob that guy, he tells Trey, 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:33.240 and you can keep all the money. We didn't have 0:07:33.240 --> 0:07:37.240 any guns, and so I brought my axes. I had 0:07:37.320 --> 0:07:40.800 two axes, and so my friend had one and I 0:07:40.840 --> 0:07:44.000 had one like a wood chopping axe. We get into 0:07:44.080 --> 0:07:47.920 this to this dorm room and I end up breaking 0:07:47.920 --> 0:07:50.600 through this kid's door and I hit him in the 0:07:50.600 --> 0:07:53.680 head with the flat side of the axe. It still 0:07:53.720 --> 0:07:57.720 cuts them, still fucking gashes open his head and there's 0:07:57.760 --> 0:07:59.920 blood everywhere. I get in a fight with his roommate, 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:03.200 end up breaking his eye socket in the fight, and 0:08:03.720 --> 0:08:05.400 his friend had a big old gash in his head 0:08:05.480 --> 0:08:08.000 and we didn't get anything, and he was calling for 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:09.680 people who weren't in the dorm. I stayed in that 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:11.680 donor before, so I know the walls are paper thing 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:14.040 he's calling down the hallway, and so this is a 0:08:14.800 --> 0:08:18.600 whole mass. Trey ended up getting fourteen years in prison, 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:22.120 but he was granted parole after serving five and a half. Yeah, 0:08:22.160 --> 0:08:25.200 it was it was a trying time, but it definitely 0:08:25.200 --> 0:08:28.040 needed to happen. Tray says the felony conviction in the 0:08:28.040 --> 0:08:31.280 prison time helped him straighten out his life. He's married 0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:34.560 now with a young child, and he's running a painting business. 0:08:35.120 --> 0:08:39.040 The criminal life it's in the past for Trey, but 0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:42.679 it's Tray passed that allows Mickey to construct his lie. 0:08:43.360 --> 0:08:46.600 Mickey tells his allies among the activists, the trade must 0:08:46.640 --> 0:08:49.680 be an informant. Why else would a former felon be 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:53.240 talking about a fire bomb plot. The rumor about Trey 0:08:53.280 --> 0:08:57.040 starts circulating online, then in person among the demonstrators, you 0:08:57.120 --> 0:09:00.720 see people accusing me of being an aide, and you 0:09:00.920 --> 0:09:03.760 start seeing people saying, well, this is what Mickey said, 0:09:03.840 --> 0:09:07.880 or this is what X said. Who also would hear 0:09:07.960 --> 0:09:10.240 from either this person or that person? Who would hear 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:12.840 from Mickey? Right? And so I was like, I think 0:09:12.920 --> 0:09:14.760 Mickey's called I think Mickey's trying to set me up 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:17.600 here as a FED. It's a classic move for an 0:09:17.600 --> 0:09:23.760 informant to pull. Trey has been snitch jacketed more after 0:09:23.800 --> 0:09:38.600 the break. I can't say this with absolute certainty since 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:41.520 Mickey won't talk to me, but I don't think Mickey 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:44.400 really thought Trey was interested in any sort of fire 0:09:44.400 --> 0:09:48.000 bomb plot. I think Mickey realized that he'd fallen for 0:09:48.040 --> 0:09:51.439 Trey's trap By so eagerly suggesting he could make Trey's 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:55.280 hypothetical fire bomb plot happen. Mickey had revealed himself as 0:09:55.320 --> 0:09:59.520 an informant, or at least had given Tray plenty of 0:09:59.520 --> 0:10:03.160 reason to be suspicious, and that's why Mickey says Tray 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:06.720 is an informant. Mickey has a lot to lose if 0:10:06.760 --> 0:10:10.240 Trey outs him as a snitch, specifically the thousands of 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:13.760 dollars in cash the FBI is paying him regularly about 0:10:13.760 --> 0:10:16.640 every two or three weeks. If too many activists in 0:10:16.720 --> 0:10:19.760 Denver think Mickey is cooperating with the cops, then he's 0:10:19.760 --> 0:10:22.760 no longer useful to the FBI. The FBI, of course, 0:10:23.240 --> 0:10:27.400 only pays informants when they're useful By raising suspicions that 0:10:27.440 --> 0:10:30.840 Trey is an informant, Mickey can protect his cover and 0:10:31.000 --> 0:10:35.360 his income. If everyone suspects Treys a snitch, this thinking goes, 0:10:35.760 --> 0:10:38.400 then they'll be focused on him and no one will 0:10:38.400 --> 0:10:42.000 be suspecting Mickey's the real informant. This is a time 0:10:42.000 --> 0:10:48.160 tested tactic called snitch jacketing, and snitch jacketing has a 0:10:48.200 --> 0:10:56.079 long troubling history in the FBI. From his office, j 0:10:56.240 --> 0:10:59.760 Edgar Hoover has placed on the entire organization's own rigid 0:10:59.800 --> 0:11:02.960 code of service, integrity, and morality in a way that 0:11:03.080 --> 0:11:06.760 is true a few organizations. J Edgar Hoover is the FBI, 0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:12.840 and that is our story. The practice of snitch jacketing 0:11:13.080 --> 0:11:14.960 goes way back to the infamous days of the first 0:11:15.040 --> 0:11:20.319 FBI Director, j. Gar Hoover. Remember always at the spy 0:11:20.960 --> 0:11:25.880 and the Sabbata all the destroyer carrignal badge he hides 0:11:26.000 --> 0:11:31.720 behind a hundred fronts, he pretends innocence. In nineteen fifty six, 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:34.520 Hoover secretly launched a program too. And these are the 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:40.280 words Hoover used in its directive quote expose, disrupts, misdirect, discredit, 0:11:40.520 --> 0:11:44.040 or otherwise neutralize political groups that Hoover and his FBI 0:11:44.080 --> 0:11:50.240 agents considered quote subversive to American society. Hoover secret operation 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:53.880 was called the counter Intelligence Program or co intel Pro. 0:11:55.640 --> 0:12:00.000 For fifteen years, FBI agents and informants infiltrated political movement 0:12:00.480 --> 0:12:03.680 and disrupted them from within. Well. The targets of co 0:12:03.800 --> 0:12:06.120 intel Pro did include some far right groups, such as 0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:09.679 the Ku Klux Klan, Hoover's FBI focus its efforts primarily 0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:13.760 on left wing political and civil rights movements, including communist groups, 0:12:14.080 --> 0:12:18.040 anti war advocates, the American Indian Movement, the Black Panther Party, 0:12:18.440 --> 0:12:22.959 and even doctor Martin Luther King Junior's organization. Snitch Jacketing 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:26.240 was a common tactic of co intel Pro, particularly in 0:12:26.280 --> 0:12:29.600 the bureau's infiltration of black political groups such as the Panthers, 0:12:30.000 --> 0:12:32.280 whose leaders were very aware that they were being spied 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:34.720 on by government informants. I'm the depth chairman of the 0:12:34.720 --> 0:12:37.920 State of Illinois Blackcap Party. Him and a lot of 0:12:37.960 --> 0:12:41.559 people are on the fan Black Panther Party relationship with 0:12:41.600 --> 0:12:45.320 white Muther Country Rata. Here's Fred Hampton, a senior Black 0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:47.920 Panther official, speaking eight months before he was shot and 0:12:48.000 --> 0:12:50.120 killed in his bed during a pre dawn raid in 0:12:50.200 --> 0:13:00.000 nineteen sixty nine. Informants and agents would accuse other members, 0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:04.079 even leaders, of being informants. This would so mistrust, create 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:09.240 interpersonal suspicion, lead to dysfunction, and in some cases, wholesale 0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:12.920 collapse of these political and civil rights groups. Some informants 0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:16.040 even took on leadership roles in the very organizations the 0:13:16.080 --> 0:13:20.160 FBI was infiltrated. In nineteen seventy five, the US Senate 0:13:20.200 --> 0:13:22.839 formed a committee to investigate and reveal the extent of 0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:26.840 the FBI's abuses during co Intel pro. Today, we are 0:13:26.880 --> 0:13:30.000 here to review the major findings of our full investigation 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:35.240 of FBI domestic intelligence, including the Cointel program and other 0:13:35.360 --> 0:13:39.679 programs aimed at domestic targets. The committee is commonly known 0:13:39.679 --> 0:13:42.760 as the Church Committee after its chairman, the late Senator 0:13:42.800 --> 0:13:47.040 Frank Church of Idaho. As one example of the FBI's egregious, 0:13:47.320 --> 0:13:51.240 politically motivated actions during Hoover's co Intel pro Frederick Shores, 0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:54.240 the Chief Council of the Church Committee, described how agents 0:13:54.240 --> 0:13:58.640 sent letters to America's most prominent civil rights activist. The 0:13:58.679 --> 0:14:02.120 bureau went so far as to male anonymous letters to 0:14:02.200 --> 0:14:09.440 doctor King and his wife, which finishes with this suggestion, King, 0:14:09.480 --> 0:14:11.559 there is only one thing left for you to do. 0:14:11.640 --> 0:14:14.280 You know what it is. You have just thirty four 0:14:14.400 --> 0:14:18.040 days in which to do it. You were done. You 0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:22.480 are done. The FBI under Hoover, sent an anonymous letter 0:14:22.480 --> 0:14:25.960 to King strongly suggesting that he kill himself before accepting 0:14:25.960 --> 0:14:29.000 the Nobel Peace Prize, because the US government was concerned 0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:31.960 that the award would lend global legitimacy to King's civil 0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:34.960 rights movement. That was the pretext for all of this was, 0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:40.200 you know, threat of external and internal subversion. This is 0:14:40.200 --> 0:14:43.000 Mark Peiskia, an investigative reporter who has spent most of 0:14:43.000 --> 0:14:45.800 his career in Memphis, where Martin Luther King was assassinated 0:14:45.920 --> 0:14:48.720 in nineteen sixty eight. And of course, you know, at 0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:51.720 that time there was a great paranoia still in this 0:14:51.760 --> 0:14:56.400 country the nineteen fifties nineteen sixties of the communists, the 0:14:56.480 --> 0:14:59.760 Soviets had infiltrated all of our institutions, and that there 0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:02.720 was this massive conspiracy. That's certainly what j Edgar Hoover 0:15:03.000 --> 0:15:04.640 was selling that to the public. And there was a 0:15:04.680 --> 0:15:09.840 lot of people believed that Hoover believed that black America 0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:13.640 was particularly susceptible to subversion because of the history of 0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:16.960 oppression in this country and disadvantage, so they were constantly 0:15:17.040 --> 0:15:20.400 under watch. While the Church Committee revealed many of co 0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:24.360 intel pros abuses, it's taken journalists and researchers up until 0:15:24.400 --> 0:15:27.440 more recently to reveal who was spying on black civil 0:15:27.520 --> 0:15:32.200 rights groups for Hoover's FBI. In twenty ten, Mark Pereskia 0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:35.400 brought to light that Ernest Withers, a celebrated Civil rights 0:15:35.440 --> 0:15:38.360 era photographer who was particularly close to Martin Luther King, 0:15:38.720 --> 0:15:43.200 had been a paid FBI informant for eighteen years. He 0:15:43.280 --> 0:15:45.640 was an informant. There's no question that records are mean 0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:48.960 several feet thick of everything they did. But it might 0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:51.880 be even more helpful to think of him as an asset, 0:15:52.560 --> 0:15:54.600 because it wasn't. When you think of an informant, you 0:15:54.640 --> 0:15:59.240 think of somebody undercover playing a role. Ernest wasn't playing 0:15:59.280 --> 0:16:01.320 any role. He didn't have to. He was who he was, 0:16:01.440 --> 0:16:03.520 and he could go any place he wanted. And so 0:16:03.800 --> 0:16:06.880 if it's helpful to think of him more as an asset, 0:16:07.080 --> 0:16:09.400 I guess you could. But it's the same thing. He 0:16:09.480 --> 0:16:12.480 was getting paid for information, and he was supplying it, 0:16:12.520 --> 0:16:15.880 and it was harmful. We've come to view this era 0:16:15.920 --> 0:16:20.200 of FBI infiltration as a dark chapter in American history, 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:25.160 as something that's over, never to be repeated. But while 0:16:25.200 --> 0:16:28.720 co intel pro no longer exists, its methods and tactics 0:16:29.000 --> 0:16:34.400 have survived in various ways inside the FBI and then Denver. 0:16:35.160 --> 0:16:38.840 In the summer of twenty twenty, Mickey started snitch jacketing, 0:16:39.560 --> 0:16:42.280 just as FBI agents and informants had done during the 0:16:42.320 --> 0:16:47.120 sixties and seventies, and just as happened back then, snitch 0:16:47.160 --> 0:16:51.960 jacketing undermined political organizers like Trey Quinn. He goes back 0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:53.520 and tells his group, He's like, oh, he's a fit. 0:16:53.920 --> 0:16:57.720 He's fit for Tray. The effects of this FBI subversion 0:16:58.240 --> 0:17:01.440 are subtle at first. The hy dsa activist who'd gotten 0:17:01.440 --> 0:17:06.960 close to Mickey, they stopped communicating with Tray and now 0:17:07.000 --> 0:17:09.720 I'm like, what's going on here? And so that kind 0:17:09.720 --> 0:17:12.280 of clues me, and it's like, all right, they were 0:17:12.320 --> 0:17:16.840 obviously scared of me for some reason. Later, Zeb Hall, 0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:21.880 who's fully enamored with Mickey, confirms tray suspicions. Zeb confides 0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:24.679 in his old friend Mickey and the wy DSA activists, 0:17:25.320 --> 0:17:29.080 they think you're a FED, and so that's kind of 0:17:29.119 --> 0:17:32.639 when my ears started to perk up. But remember Mickey 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:36.600 failed Tray's test. Tray is pretty sure that Mickey is 0:17:36.640 --> 0:17:39.960 a FED, but Trey chooses not to respond in kind 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:44.240 and snitch jacket Mickey to the Denver activists. Instead, Trey 0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:47.359 actively tries not to let Mickey know about his suspicions. 0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:51.359 When you suspect someone of being a cop in your group, 0:17:51.600 --> 0:17:54.080 you don't kick him out of the group. That's the 0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:55.879 last thing you do, because now you don't know what 0:17:55.880 --> 0:17:59.560 they're going to do. You keep them around. So Trey 0:17:59.640 --> 0:18:04.399 plays his own game of deception. He continues to exchange 0:18:04.440 --> 0:18:06.879 messages and coordinate with Mickey and to invite him to 0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:11.240 meetings and events. So he shows up to those and 0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:15.199 acts quote unquote friendly. But then there's a couple he 0:18:15.200 --> 0:18:18.320 does a couple of suspicious things even then, and that's 0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:22.800 when the like, the narrative just progresses even more and 0:18:22.880 --> 0:18:26.199 more and more afterwards, because yeah, like one night we 0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:28.840 were supposed to meet up for an assembly, he was 0:18:28.880 --> 0:18:31.359 supposed to be there, he didn't show up, and so 0:18:31.400 --> 0:18:34.639 as we're doing our group meeting, it's a small general assembly, 0:18:35.160 --> 0:18:38.879 and it just everything seems strange. And then he calls 0:18:38.880 --> 0:18:41.920 and he's like, the cops are the cops are circling around, 0:18:41.960 --> 0:18:44.800 there's some suspicious activity. He calls in. He doesn't show up, 0:18:44.800 --> 0:18:48.000 but he calls in. Cops around. There's some suspicious activity 0:18:48.040 --> 0:18:49.520 around there. You guys are got to get out of there. 0:18:49.800 --> 0:18:51.520 I got a guy who's down there, just give me 0:18:51.520 --> 0:18:54.960 a call. And so we're all like, well, who is he? 0:18:55.400 --> 0:18:57.760 Because he's not with us, So you just got a 0:18:57.760 --> 0:19:01.720 guy watching us. And so at that point, you know, 0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:07.440 it became super wild. Tray is onto Mickey. He doesn't 0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:11.680 trust him. Dude's are fed, but keep your enemies close. 0:19:12.720 --> 0:19:17.720 That's Trade strategy. On the other hand, there's Zeb. Then 0:19:17.760 --> 0:19:21.360 I started getting concerns about it because I didn't talk 0:19:21.400 --> 0:19:23.959 to Trade myself, and I got to own that, you know, 0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:26.840 and I was just too afraid of it after everything 0:19:26.920 --> 0:19:29.639 I had been through. His will. Zeb doesn't know what 0:19:29.720 --> 0:19:34.800 to think. Mickey says, Trades an informant, and maybe he's right. Besides, 0:19:35.160 --> 0:19:38.400 Zeb's naive. He doesn't think there's any way Mickey could 0:19:38.400 --> 0:19:41.200 be an informant. He's trying to dial up the violence, 0:19:41.520 --> 0:19:44.440 which to zeb at the time. Doesn't seem like something 0:19:44.440 --> 0:19:47.320 a government agent would do. Why would you, as a 0:19:47.400 --> 0:19:51.040 law enforcement informant, want people and push people to go 0:19:51.119 --> 0:19:56.119 to a potentially violent protest? And once again Mickey is 0:19:56.160 --> 0:19:59.359 about to take things up a notch, a full on 0:19:59.440 --> 0:20:14.080 assault against the police station. That's after the break. So 0:20:14.160 --> 0:20:16.639 Mickey arrived on the protest scene in May twenty twenty. 0:20:17.240 --> 0:20:21.040 By late August, he's become a legitimate leader. The snitch 0:20:21.119 --> 0:20:25.679 jacketing has played no small part as Mickey and as 0:20:25.720 --> 0:20:29.280 loyalists spread rumors that Trey Quinn is an informant turning 0:20:29.280 --> 0:20:33.560 people against Trey, Mickey is ascendant among the protesters, and 0:20:33.640 --> 0:20:36.720 Denver activists have even given him a nickname, the drill 0:20:36.800 --> 0:20:44.200 Sergeant can I J. S. Jackin here Yo, Mickey keeps 0:20:44.200 --> 0:20:46.800 telling the protesters that they need to do more, they 0:20:46.800 --> 0:20:50.320 need to get more aggressive, they need to get militant. 0:20:51.560 --> 0:20:54.320 In late August twenty twenty, Mickey is with his two 0:20:54.359 --> 0:20:57.840 allies on the y DSA Honor and Aiden. Honor and 0:20:57.920 --> 0:21:00.800 Aiden were the pair I'd mentioned before, young activists whom 0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:04.359 Mickey had turned into soldiers. They fan out during demonstrations 0:21:04.560 --> 0:21:07.000 and report back to him what was happening. Acting as 0:21:07.040 --> 0:21:10.199 a kind of surveillance network for Mickey. ZEB goes to 0:21:10.240 --> 0:21:13.080 meet Mickey and his two unwitting allies at an apartment. 0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:15.880 The apartment is decked out with flags for the PKK, 0:21:16.400 --> 0:21:19.879 the Kurdistan Workers Party, a socialist political party that the 0:21:19.960 --> 0:21:23.800 U State Department has designated a foreign terrorist organization. With 0:21:23.840 --> 0:21:26.520 his claims of fighting for the Peshmerga, Mickey had said 0:21:26.520 --> 0:21:29.080 he was aligned with the PKK, which had given him 0:21:29.080 --> 0:21:33.440 additional credibility. With the activists brothers and sisters and socialism 0:21:33.600 --> 0:21:37.440 or something. They had like a lot of that PKK 0:21:37.600 --> 0:21:39.120 stuff with their house. I didn't know what the fuck 0:21:39.160 --> 0:21:42.000 that was until I met Mickey. Zeb looks over at 0:21:42.000 --> 0:21:45.199 a table in the apartment. It's covered with guns and 0:21:45.359 --> 0:21:49.159 other weapons, and holy fuck, so yeah, they had guns. 0:21:49.920 --> 0:21:53.639 Another activist there sees what Zeb sees, Mickey and a 0:21:53.680 --> 0:21:57.520 table full of guns. I walk in, mix guns, weapon 0:21:57.840 --> 0:22:01.119 like medical supplies, literally king like they're preparing for a 0:22:01.160 --> 0:22:05.359 genuine battle. But this activist is fearful of Mickey, so 0:22:05.400 --> 0:22:07.320 she agrees to let me record an interview with her 0:22:07.680 --> 0:22:09.800 as long as I agree not to use her name. 0:22:10.359 --> 0:22:13.159 We're sitting on her front porch in Denver, and I 0:22:13.400 --> 0:22:17.160 just it was insane. What kind of we're like handguns 0:22:17.280 --> 0:22:22.159 rifles and everything military. Yeah, I don't even remember, like 0:22:23.720 --> 0:22:26.520 I can, like I have this like vague mental image 0:22:26.600 --> 0:22:29.919 of what that apartment looked like, but it feels like 0:22:29.960 --> 0:22:33.840 a dream. But she reluctantly takes on a role in 0:22:33.880 --> 0:22:36.240 what Mickey and the group are planning. She agrees to 0:22:36.240 --> 0:22:38.760 tag along because she's worried about what her friends are 0:22:38.760 --> 0:22:41.880 about to do, because I was like, this is going 0:22:41.920 --> 0:22:44.800 to go really badly, Like I don't feel comfortable with 0:22:44.840 --> 0:22:47.160 them doing this alone, because I was like, the fuck 0:22:47.200 --> 0:22:49.960 am I going to do? Let these like teenagers who 0:22:50.040 --> 0:22:52.720 I have cared about for like multiple years, just get 0:22:52.760 --> 0:22:57.560 into these situations and not look out for them. Okay, 0:22:57.560 --> 0:23:00.480 So here's some context as to what's happening here. Starting 0:23:00.480 --> 0:23:03.200 in late August twenty twenty, the Denver protesters begin to 0:23:03.240 --> 0:23:09.199 get more aggressive. According to about a dozen people I 0:23:09.200 --> 0:23:13.359 spoke to, Mickey is the one responsible for organizing and encouraging, 0:23:13.920 --> 0:23:17.639 at least in part, what morphed into coordinated attacks against 0:23:17.640 --> 0:23:20.800 Denver police stations. We are following some breaking news in 0:23:20.880 --> 0:23:23.880 downtown Denver right now. A protest calling for the end 0:23:24.040 --> 0:23:27.439 of the Denver Police Department has led to violence and 0:23:27.680 --> 0:23:32.480 property damage, with fireworks shot at police, trees set on fire, 0:23:32.600 --> 0:23:35.800 and a standoff with officers growing more tense by the 0:23:35.880 --> 0:23:41.280 minute before Mickey's arrival on the scene. The demonstrations in 0:23:41.320 --> 0:23:44.679 the Denver area were mostly peaceful, organizing events like the 0:23:44.760 --> 0:23:48.439 violinvigil for Elijah McClean and Aurora. The police response to 0:23:48.480 --> 0:23:53.159 the peaceful protests had been brutal, riot gear, bullhorns, pepper spray, 0:23:53.440 --> 0:24:01.880 and lines of cops coming in like stormtroopers. The heavy 0:24:01.880 --> 0:24:04.800 handed police response had inspired something of an arms race. 0:24:05.240 --> 0:24:08.919 The protesters were becoming increasingly aggressive and they were arriving 0:24:08.960 --> 0:24:12.359 at events ready for violence. They were wearing makeshift body 0:24:12.440 --> 0:24:15.359 armor and holding homemade shields. And it wasn't just the 0:24:15.400 --> 0:24:18.639 cops who were potential targets of aggression. Anyone seen as 0:24:18.680 --> 0:24:21.560 part of the establishment. They appeared to be fair game. 0:24:22.240 --> 0:24:26.040 A dangerous mob mentality had developed. Zeb starts to see 0:24:26.040 --> 0:24:32.320 this transformation, and it concerns him. I mean, he was 0:24:32.359 --> 0:24:35.399 having people go out there and do surveillance. He was 0:24:35.440 --> 0:24:38.080 talking about people getting fucked up. It's like one night 0:24:38.320 --> 0:24:42.159 at the police station, I had to save this fucking rapport. 0:24:42.200 --> 0:24:44.240