Speaker 1: Pushkin Hey Slight Change listeners. Happy New Year. I hope
Speaker 1: you all had a peaceful and RESTful holiday. New Year's
Speaker 1: resolutions can often feel impossible to keep. I remember giving
Speaker 1: up on them altogether for a while. I figured, what's
Speaker 1: the point when I'm just going to give up on
Speaker 1: my goal after a few weeks of intense effort. But
Speaker 1: in the last five years or so, I finally decided
Speaker 1: to apply the best insights from behavioral science to my
Speaker 1: own life so that I could set smarter goals and
Speaker 1: actually stick to them. And it's been life changing for me.
Speaker 1: I have a completely different relationship now with goal setting
Speaker 1: and motivation, and we've talked about some of that amazing,
Speaker 1: life changing behavioral science on the show. So I decided
Speaker 1: to go back into the archives and share three interviews
Speaker 1: with experts who delve deep into useful strategies for making
Speaker 1: change in your life. They'll give you the practical tools
Speaker 1: and motivation you need to not only set great goals,
Speaker 1: but sustain your commitments well into twenty twenty three. On
Speaker 1: today's episode, we'll hear from my good friend and fellow
Speaker 1: behavioral scientists, doctor Katie Milkman, who shares evidence based techniques
Speaker 1: we can use to change our behavior and actually reach
Speaker 1: our goals, including commitment devices, the fresh start effect, and
Speaker 1: the tool of temptation bundling. I'd love to hear about
Speaker 1: which insights resonate most with you and the ones you're
Speaker 1: planning to try out. You can connect with me on
Speaker 1: Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker. My research group has studied
Speaker 1: this phenomenon where at the beginning of sort of a
Speaker 1: new chapter in your life, you are more motivated and
Speaker 1: likely to make a change. That's doctor Katie Milkman, author
Speaker 1: of the book How to Change Moments. When you leave
Speaker 1: college and you shift identity is and take on a
Speaker 1: new role, or when you become a parent, those moments
Speaker 1: they feel like new beginnings and chapter breaks in our lives,
Speaker 1: and they free us from the baggage that we had before.
Speaker 1: A lot of people who do make big change are
Speaker 1: looking at moments that feel like breaking points and doing it.
Speaker 1: Katie Milkman's a professor of behavioral economics at the University
Speaker 1: of Pennsylvania. She's also a friend and collaborator. We got
Speaker 1: to work together on some projects when I was in
Speaker 1: the Obama White House, and she happens to be an
Speaker 1: expert on change. As you know, this show is all
Speaker 1: about how people navigate the big changes in life. We're
Speaker 1: talking swing for the fences, change your life type changes.
Speaker 1: What Katie's research has taught me over the years is
Speaker 1: that small tweaks to our mindset in daily behaviors can
Speaker 1: actually inspire big change within ourselves. I've personally been using
Speaker 1: insights from Katie's research my own life for a while now.
Speaker 1: In this special episode, Katie and I dive deep into
Speaker 1: the science of change. I hope our conversation will leave
Speaker 1: you with some valuable tips to help your approach change
Speaker 1: differently in your own life. I'm Maya Shankar and this
Speaker 1: is a slight change of plants. Well, Katie, I was
Speaker 1: curious to know how you got into the topic of change. Honestly,
Speaker 1: I was in love with behavioral science, but it took
Speaker 1: me a little while to figure out that I wanted
Speaker 1: to focus on change. And what happened is I went
Speaker 1: to a seminar over at the med school and there's
Speaker 1: a bunch of brilliant people over there thinking about behavioral
Speaker 1: science and medicine. How can we help patients make better decisions?
Speaker 1: How can we improve the scions of doctors as well.
Speaker 1: And I was in this seminar and a graph went up,
Speaker 1: which normally doesn't change your life, but this graph changed
Speaker 1: my life. The graph just showed a breakdown of how
Speaker 1: many premature deaths are due to different causes, from you know,
Speaker 1: accidents to environment to daily decisions, and forty percent of
Speaker 1: premature deaths turn out to be the result of decisions
Speaker 1: that we can change on a daily basis about things
Speaker 1: like whether or not we drink or smoke, what we eat,
Speaker 1: whether or not we're physically active, we buckle our seat belts.
Speaker 1: Those kinds of decisions accumulate more than I could have
Speaker 1: ever imagined. I had just no idea of the magnitude.
Speaker 1: And when I saw that and realized, you know, the
Speaker 1: tools of behavioral science could be applied to improve health
Speaker 1: outcomes and health decisions, I could have this enormous impact.
Speaker 1: And then then I sort of started thinking, like, Okay, well,
Speaker 1: if it matters that much with health, it's sort of
Speaker 1: obvious that it would accumulate in areas like savings and education.
Speaker 1: And similarly, even if I've never seen an exact breakdown
Speaker 1: of that sort, so that really just got me excited
Speaker 1: about the potential to use this thing that I found
Speaker 1: so interesting, so exciting and fun to actually have an impact.
Speaker 1: So that was that was it for me. I'm really
Speaker 1: curious about how your journey changed, because you've had many
Speaker 1: career shifts, but you certainly went from you know, a
Speaker 1: more laboratory based focus too, you know, jumping into the
Speaker 1: White House to tackle change head on from a policy perspective.
Speaker 1: How did how did you shift? It's interesting because in
Speaker 1: my mind, my big shift in life was from the
Speaker 1: violin to cognitive science that I'm just remembering, like, oh wait,
Speaker 1: I also had this other really big shift changes and
Speaker 1: changing person to host. Um. I think this is true
Speaker 1: across science too, But certainly when we were working in
Speaker 1: the government, the stakes feel so high you just can't
Speaker 1: screw up because these are real people's lives and they
Speaker 1: can be affected by the work you're doing. And yeah,
Speaker 1: it's so funny. Mean, we actually worked together on some projects.
Speaker 1: Actually one of them used an insight from your book,
Speaker 1: and it was the fresh Start Effect. And I'm curious
Speaker 1: if you can share what the fresh Start effect is.
Speaker 1: It was very exciting at the time to have hot
Speaker 1: off the press's research coming out of your lad actually
Speaker 1: applied to a problem that we were trying to solve
Speaker 1: in the government. So my research group has studied this
Speaker 1: phenomenon where at the beginning of sort of a new
Speaker 1: chapter in your life, you are more motivated and likely
Speaker 1: to make a change. And we've often studied small changes
Speaker 1: in this context, like you go to the gym more,
Speaker 1: or you search on Google for the term diet more frequently,
Speaker 1: or you're more likely to set a goal on a
Speaker 1: goal setting website. But I also think you know where
Speaker 1: the interest in this topic came from was the realization
Speaker 1: that a lot of people who do make big change
Speaker 1: are looking at moments that feel like breaking points and
Speaker 1: doing it. And so I tell stories about bigger changes
Speaker 1: book moments when you leave college and you shift identity
Speaker 1: is and take on a new role, or when you
Speaker 1: become a parent. Those moments they feel like new beginnings
Speaker 1: and chapter breaks in our lives, and I think they're
Speaker 1: freeing in a way. They free us from the baggage
Speaker 1: that we had before. But they can also be freeing
Speaker 1: psychologically because we feel like you're a new person. You
Speaker 1: can take on a new identity. Whatever wasn't working before,
Speaker 1: whatever ambition you failed to have before you can shed
Speaker 1: that and say okay, now I can do it. So anyway,
Speaker 1: I do think we could study big change, and I
Speaker 1: actually think some of the research we've done around small
Speaker 1: change is inspired by a recognition that these might also
Speaker 1: be the triggers for big change. Was there a particular
Speaker 1: moment in your life where you felt the fresh start
Speaker 1: effect play out, where it really felt like a new
Speaker 1: beginning and there was a certain set of habits or
Speaker 1: behavior changes that you witnessed. Oh my gosh, I mean
Speaker 1: you know, I do mesearch so totally, meaning like a
Speaker 1: lot of my research is motivated by like, oh wow,
Speaker 1: that's weird. I wonder if other people, and then I
Speaker 1: like asked my friends, oh yes, me too, and then
Speaker 1: I realized, okay, like this might be this might be
Speaker 1: something we're shutting. I will say one example that I
Speaker 1: love is that I realized I wanted to write this
Speaker 1: book for a long time. Finally what happened that triggered
Speaker 1: it When I actually began. My son was three years old.
Speaker 1: We decided we were going to move out of our
Speaker 1: apartment into a house. We bought the house, we signed
Speaker 1: the papers, and that day I said, you know what,
Speaker 1: I'm ready, we're moving to a new house. It's a
Speaker 1: fresh start. This is a moment and the project started
Speaker 1: from there. So that was a big one for me. Interesting.
Speaker 1: One of the anecdotes around the fresh start that I
Speaker 1: love the most is Obama decided that he would stop
Speaker 1: smoking for good when the Affordable Care Act passed, and
Speaker 1: I was like, wait, a next level the fresh start effect,
Speaker 1: Like he truly chose us in a lifetime experience to
Speaker 1: anchor his commitment on. And it was like aligned on,
Speaker 1: you know, it was aligned on like a health focus. Yes,
Speaker 1: of course, of course Obama one ups all of us
Speaker 1: and does the thing in the best way imaginable. Duh.
Speaker 1: But I do love that, Like there's no other future,
Speaker 1: one of those where he can be like, oh maybe
Speaker 1: I can cave a little now because they'll be this
Speaker 1: other right the other time I pass health Yeah, the
Speaker 1: other time I pass healthcare as president. I love that,
Speaker 1: and I don't I don't think I knew that. Actually,
Speaker 1: that's amazing. Um, have you used the fresh start effect
Speaker 1: maya or like in hindsight, have you ever noticed that
Speaker 1: a fresh start shifted? I have something for you, I swear,
Speaker 1: I swear to God every Sunday. I'm committing to eating healthily.
Speaker 1: It's just that there's too many damn Sundays, and so
Speaker 1: I always feel like I've gotten on to give it
Speaker 1: a go. Yeah, but yeah, I mean, I think it's
Speaker 1: it's hard for so many of us to keep our resolutions.
Speaker 1: And in reading your book, it did make me think, Okay,
Speaker 1: choose really markable milestones for pivoting, like big moves, like
Speaker 1: when I moved from DC to California, getting married, big
Speaker 1: events like that, because I do think you feel like
Speaker 1: your identity is changing a bit, and any behaviors at
Speaker 1: a company identity shifts might be more sticky, or at
Speaker 1: least they have than in my experience. I think that's right.
Speaker 1: And you get the benefit not only of the sort
Speaker 1: of psychological break and the fresh start and opening a
Speaker 1: new chapter, but you also have physical change, which is
Speaker 1: so important to disrupting sort of bad habits or routines
Speaker 1: and giving you that real blank slate to build upon
Speaker 1: and say like, oh, I'm not going to go to
Speaker 1: the burrito shop every day for lunch, or you know,
Speaker 1: whatever your bad habit is that you want to kick
Speaker 1: um exactly. Yeah, I think one of my favorite insights
Speaker 1: from the book, and it's inside I've been using in
Speaker 1: my own life since I read your research years ago.
Speaker 1: Is around temptation bundling. Do you mind for sharing what
Speaker 1: that is? And then I'd love to let you know
Speaker 1: how I've been using it. Yeah, I want to hear
Speaker 1: about your temptation funneling. Um that this is gonna be fun.
Speaker 1: So temptation bundling is a solution I came up with
Speaker 1: because I had two problems. Taking you back to grad
Speaker 1: school again. I was taking all these hard engineering classes
Speaker 1: and I was stressed out, and I'd come home after
Speaker 1: a long day of classes, and all I wanted to
Speaker 1: do was just like indulge in entertainment, right, like turn
Speaker 1: on Netflix and binge watch TV, read tempting novels. So
Speaker 1: I just wanted I wanted to dive into that and
Speaker 1: escape my reality, and I didn't want to do my
Speaker 1: problem sets. On the flip side, I also knew I
Speaker 1: should really be getting exercise. I was an athlete in college,
Speaker 1: but again when I came home from a long day,
Speaker 1: I didn't want to put on sweats and go to
Speaker 1: the gym. So these two problems, like I couldn't get
Speaker 1: myself to do my homework because I was procrastinating, indulging
Speaker 1: in all this entertainment, and I couldn't get myself to exercise.
Speaker 1: And all of a sudden, I realized, like, wait a minute,
Speaker 1: what if I solved them all at once? What if
Speaker 1: I only let myself enjoy this entertainment that I love
Speaker 1: so much while I'm exercising, I'd start craving trips to
Speaker 1: the gym to find out what happens next in my
Speaker 1: latest page turner, and I would stop wasting time at
Speaker 1: home on this sort of literary garbage that normally captures
Speaker 1: my attention, and I just focus on my problem sets.
Speaker 1: And I started doing it. Was just like magic. I
Speaker 1: worked out every day. Time flew while I was at
Speaker 1: the gym because I was engrossed in Harry Potter or
Speaker 1: Alex Cross. And when I got home, I was ready
Speaker 1: to work because I'd already had my indulgence and I
Speaker 1: wasn't as stressed out. And I also realized like I
Speaker 1: could use them not only to help me exercise, but
Speaker 1: in lots of places, like if you just tie something
Speaker 1: tempting to a chore, you can magically turn it into
Speaker 1: something you look forward to and do less of that
Speaker 1: indulgent thing and feel less guilty about it, Like you know,
Speaker 1: if only you get a glass of wine while you're
Speaker 1: making a home cooked meal, or listen to your favorite
Speaker 1: podcast while you're doing chores. For all your listeners who
Speaker 1: are doing laundry right now, Katie and I are carrying
Speaker 1: you on. Go for it. Yes, your temptation bundling. You
Speaker 1: didn't know there was a name for it, Yes, exactly. Okay,
Speaker 1: So I one of my favorite things in life is
Speaker 1: discovering a new pop song that I love. And what
Speaker 1: makes me really sad is that I very quickly, like
Speaker 1: it loses the spark after a certain number of listens,
Speaker 1: Like you just know, you only have fifteen amazing listens
Speaker 1: with the song and before before it kind of becomes
Speaker 1: old hat. Right, So, as soon as I discover an
Speaker 1: amazing song, I will only allow myself to listen to
Speaker 1: it while I'm working out from that point on, And like,
Speaker 1: I'm a really non fun wife because my husband sometimes
Speaker 1: and I will discover the song together and we'll be
Speaker 1: cooking in the evening, We'll be having fun. He's like, Hey,
Speaker 1: let's play that new album by Casey Musgraves, who's one
Speaker 1: of my favorite artists, and I'm like, no, no, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: you don't understand. That's only like a treadmill elliptical song
Speaker 1: because I just feel like I have to protect it
Speaker 1: and save it. But it certainly makes the work out
Speaker 1: a lot more tolerable and a little bit more exciting.
Speaker 1: So yes, I love pop music too, and I feel
Speaker 1: like we should trade some song recommendations later so we
Speaker 1: can each share. It's now very seriously tied to my exercise.
Speaker 1: Between intact, the one thing that can happen is when
Speaker 1: you temptation bundle. Sometimes what can happen is the intrinsic
Speaker 1: extrinsic motivation balance gets thrown off kilter a bit. So
Speaker 1: it's like, initially I'm just using all of my internal
Speaker 1: will to go exercise, but now I've got this extrinsic motivator,
Speaker 1: which is a song. So on the rare occasion where
Speaker 1: like my headphones are out of battery, or like my
Speaker 1: phone's Wi Fi is not working, I'm like, oh, I
Speaker 1: don't know if I can do this anymore. Just have
Speaker 1: to make sure your headphones are always working in your
Speaker 1: your iPhone is always charged or whatever. Yes, I'm wondering
Speaker 1: whether for temptation bundling. You see this plate on the
Speaker 1: wild in places that were behavior change feels a little
Speaker 1: bit more serious. That's interesting. I'm trying to think if
Speaker 1: I have a great answer for you. There's a study
Speaker 1: I love of teachers who are trying to figure out
Speaker 1: how to motivate their students to do more math problems,
Speaker 1: which kids apparently say they like doing math about as
Speaker 1: much as they like eating broccoli. So that tells you
Speaker 1: something about how delightful it is. And math is so
Speaker 1: important to everything, as we both know. So these two
Speaker 1: researchers suggested, basically a temptation bundle. What if the kids
Speaker 1: could you listen to music, have snacks markers that they
Speaker 1: like using, And they did that all on the day
Speaker 1: when they're doing their math worksheets, but not at other times.
Speaker 1: And the teachers were sort of skeptical. They were like,
Speaker 1: I think they'll focus less could so I'll be distracted.
Speaker 1: And it turned out that kids persisted longer on math
Speaker 1: when they were randomly assigned to groups that had these
Speaker 1: i'll say temptations linked with them. It's not you know,
Speaker 1: it's not changing their lives in that day. It is cumulative.
Speaker 1: But I think that that's an example of like some
Speaker 1: of the big goals we have in life, whether it's
Speaker 1: getting through your math assignments or finishing a dissertation, if
Speaker 1: you can find a way to make it more enjoyable,
Speaker 1: that really matters. I love the math example, I think
Speaker 1: for two reasons. I mean, the first is I just
Speaker 1: love any time research findings violate our expectations. You know,
Speaker 1: when the teachers are like, oh, I'm not really sure
Speaker 1: that this is a good idea, but then you're able
Speaker 1: to generate empirical data that runs counter to that hypothesis.
Speaker 1: That's wonderful because it's moving the field forward. And I
Speaker 1: think the other reason I love it is that, you know,
Speaker 1: success begets success, passion begets passion. It's kind of one
Speaker 1: of those things where if you get a kid just
Speaker 1: through that initial period and they're just learning the basics,
Speaker 1: getting over those initial super hard humps, then they might
Speaker 1: actually realize that they really like this thing and then
Speaker 1: just becomes easier and easier and easier to do every
Speaker 1: problem from that point forward. So I do feel like
Speaker 1: you can have massive long term effects. I'm with you.
Speaker 1: And if they have positive associations with math, I mean
Speaker 1: what more could we hope for. We'll be right back
Speaker 1: with a slight change of plans. In this episode, doctor
Speaker 1: Katie Melfin and I are talking about the science of
Speaker 1: change and the different techniques we can use to spur
Speaker 1: on that change. One technique is called a commitment device,
Speaker 1: which locks you into a plan to reach your long
Speaker 1: term goals. The key feature of a conmitment device is
Speaker 1: that if you don't follow through with your plan, there's
Speaker 1: some sort of penalty in place. I remember, I'm curious
Speaker 1: if you actually remember the experience of first learning about them,
Speaker 1: because for me, it was like mind blowing how powerful
Speaker 1: they were, and actually mind blowing how few people use
Speaker 1: them given how powerful they are. But the study that
Speaker 1: I love that really I think illustrates nicely how much
Speaker 1: they can help us is a study where they partnered
Speaker 1: with a bank in the Philippines that saw low savings
Speaker 1: rates and wanted to figure out if there was a
Speaker 1: way to help people save more so they'd have the
Speaker 1: ability to have better health have better life outcomes. Where
Speaker 1: they came up with this idea that one of the
Speaker 1: reasons people were having trouble accumulating savings balances is they
Speaker 1: were constantly tempted to dip in. They were like, they
Speaker 1: opened the bank account and then they put some money aside,
Speaker 1: but then somebody's birthday or there's a holiday, and then
Speaker 1: so the money came right back out and it never accumulated.
Speaker 1: And that people said, you know, actually, I'd kind of
Speaker 1: like it if I couldn't get them money out. I
Speaker 1: kind of wish I couldn't act on those impulses. So
Speaker 1: they developed this new kind of account. It was a
Speaker 1: commitment savings account. So you put money in and you
Speaker 1: are not allowed to take it out until a predetermined
Speaker 1: date you choose, or a savings goal you choose. They
Speaker 1: offered this kind of account to you know, a random
Speaker 1: subset of customers alongside the usual account with the same
Speaker 1: interest rate, but free in and out access. They saved
Speaker 1: eighty percent more year over year than the control I
Speaker 1: mean eighty percent more savings. Right, you've studied savings like that.
Speaker 1: That's life changing. So I love that story. That's a
Speaker 1: hard commitment because when you put your money in, there
Speaker 1: is another you know, there's a third party the bank
Speaker 1: that is saying like you cannot have it. It is
Speaker 1: not accessible to you. I'm preventing I'm preventing you from
Speaker 1: So there's like a hard restriction on access to something,
Speaker 1: and a commitment device is something you voluntarily opt into
Speaker 1: that restricts you or penalizes you in some way if
Speaker 1: you don't achieve your goals or pursue your goals in
Speaker 1: the way you intend to. So that's a hard one
Speaker 1: because there's no fudging it. There's soft commitments in the
Speaker 1: world too, Like you know, you tell your partner or
Speaker 1: your mom you're going to do something, and then they
Speaker 1: ask them to give you a hard time if you don't.
Speaker 1: That's like a weak commitment device. You're gonna get a
Speaker 1: little You're gonna get ribbed a little bit. You're accountable
Speaker 1: to someone, but you can back out. Yeah. I also
Speaker 1: remember learning about commitment devices for the first time. Gosh,
Speaker 1: we sound like such nerds are for years, Katie. Do
Speaker 1: you remember where you were remember the day you learned
Speaker 1: about commitment devices? I mean remember exactly where I was.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm like, yeah, I was in a class room.
Speaker 1: My head exploded. Where were you? I was in my
Speaker 1: kitchen with my roommates, and I was reading this paper
Speaker 1: and I was like, oh, this is so exciting. The
Speaker 1: researchers ran a study in which they had people outline where, when,
Speaker 1: and how they were planning to get vaccinated. So that
Speaker 1: was my study. Oh my gosh, this is so fun.
Speaker 1: The flu shot study I'm talking about is your study.
Speaker 1: See that's awesome. Okay, well the seminal work by doctor Milkman.
Speaker 1: So in your study you ask people where, when, and
Speaker 1: how you're going to go get vaccinated, right, And I
Speaker 1: think what was so studying to me is like, so
Speaker 1: you write down this forum. You know, I maya nine
Speaker 1: am after I drop off my husband at work and
Speaker 1: I go pick up my groceries, I'm going to go
Speaker 1: to the CBS can get my flu vaccine. And what
Speaker 1: was astonishing to me is that it significantly increased the
Speaker 1: vaccination rate despite the fact that you weren't accountable to anyone,
Speaker 1: right in this intervention. You were not required to send
Speaker 1: the letter back to anyone, no one was on your case.
Speaker 1: You were literally just planning it out for yourself. And
Speaker 1: that was enough to significantly drive the numbers up, which
Speaker 1: to me again was such an extraordinary, lightlift, low cost
Speaker 1: intervention that could potentially save people's lives. And in your
Speaker 1: book talk about the fact that we all have a
Speaker 1: fairly Maybe not everyone, but many people have a very
Speaker 1: high view of themselves, so they feel like they might
Speaker 1: not benefit that much from commitment devices. And you know,
Speaker 1: we can be very over optimistic about our ability to
Speaker 1: use willpower to avoid temptation. And I'm wondering if you
Speaker 1: have any thoughts or advice for helping people overcome this
Speaker 1: overconfidence so that they can achieve their goals. Yeah, it's funny.
Speaker 1: Optimism is a really good thing, but in this particular case,
Speaker 1: it plays tricks on us that are problematic because we
Speaker 1: don't in general persevere as much as we think we will,
Speaker 1: and we do tend to be present biased, right, so
Speaker 1: we dramatically overweight whatever value will get from something instantaneously
Speaker 1: rather than the long term value. So you know, I
Speaker 1: can buy a present right now for myself, or I
Speaker 1: can put money in savings. I'll take the present, even
Speaker 1: if that's not really good for me in the long run.
Speaker 1: And if we don't appreciate that, this disconnect keeps happening,
Speaker 1: and we think we'll just barrel through and do what's
Speaker 1: in our long term best interests, we don't choose to
Speaker 1: use commitment devices because we don't recognize this challenge, so
Speaker 1: I think it's a really tough nut to crack. And
Speaker 1: for me, the big thing was sort of seeing the
Speaker 1: data and seeing, here's the evidence. If you see it
Speaker 1: with your own eyes and you see how powerful these
Speaker 1: tools are and how often we do stumble even though
Speaker 1: we think we'll be able to push through. Maybe that
Speaker 1: evidence will be enough to get people to recognize this
Speaker 1: can be a really potent approach. You have lots of
Speaker 1: colorful anecdotes sprinkled throughout of real people who are facing
Speaker 1: these challenges and using these behavioral tricks of the trade.
Speaker 1: And I do feel like in many ways you're wielding
Speaker 1: the power of social norms by saying, hey, at least
Speaker 1: here's a collection of people who are willing to acknowledge
Speaker 1: that they maybe a bit overconfident about their ability to use,
Speaker 1: for example, willpower to achieve their goals, and they're open
Speaker 1: to using some of these strategies. So maybe either could
Speaker 1: be a positive norm effect that comes from people reading
Speaker 1: your book Fingers crossed. I love that. I like that
Speaker 1: the modeling, and you know, anytime I can use insights
Speaker 1: about social norms to make the world a better place,
Speaker 1: I'm it's a win. What do you see in the
Speaker 1: future of change research in your ideal feature? When I
Speaker 1: think about what I'm most intrigued by and feel like
Speaker 1: we've only scratched the surface of in studying change, there's
Speaker 1: two big things. One is durability. What are the kinds
Speaker 1: of tools that really propel change in an incredibly durable way?
Speaker 1: You know? I think a key takeaway for me has been, like,
Speaker 1: never stopped doing the thing that's working right. Don't like
Speaker 1: assume you can temptation bundle for a month, then you've
Speaker 1: built an exercise habit and magically, maya you will never
Speaker 1: need to listen to a pop song again, and you'll
Speaker 1: always want to go to the gym. So you got
Speaker 1: to keep doing that. So we know that. But are
Speaker 1: there any magical things that where if you sort of
Speaker 1: can put them on autopilot or do them for a
Speaker 1: little while and they propel you for it? I wonder
Speaker 1: I would love to uncover some if they exist. And
Speaker 1: then the other thing I'm really intrigued by is setbacks
Speaker 1: and how to sort of how to prepare for them
Speaker 1: and recover from them as effectively as possible. I think
Speaker 1: some of the most interesting ideas I have encountered around
Speaker 1: change work because they have they help us with those setbacks.
Speaker 1: I think fresh starts sort of help us with the setbacks.
Speaker 1: They're like, Okay, wipe the slate clean. You're I get
Speaker 1: to get up and go again. There's wonderful work by
Speaker 1: my colleague Mersas Sharif on emergency reserves where she's figured
Speaker 1: out these clever ways that you set a tough goal
Speaker 1: but give yourself a couple get out of jail free
Speaker 1: cards if you can't achieve it every day of the week,
Speaker 1: and found that that's way better than giving yourself sort
Speaker 1: of like a slightly easier goal because you're you're going
Speaker 1: for the stretch, but you're giving yourself a little leeway.
Speaker 1: I think that also is like about getting back up.
Speaker 1: So I think there's some really fun, fundamental, interesting things
Speaker 1: to be explored around creating structures for success after a setback,
Speaker 1: and I look forward to studying that too, Katie. One
Speaker 1: of the things that I feel most intimidated by is
Speaker 1: this challenge of how it is we can change people's minds.
Speaker 1: It feels like one of those really elusive things, and
Speaker 1: there's no one size fits all approach and I'm just
Speaker 1: wondering if you have any thoughts on the most effective
Speaker 1: strategies you've seen, either in research or just in your
Speaker 1: personal life around how to change people's minds. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: such an interesting question. It's obviously really hard, just like
Speaker 1: behavior change is hard, changing opinions is really hard. I think.
Speaker 1: Actually there are some common themes though, and one common
Speaker 1: theme is exploration. So when we talked about the fresh
Speaker 1: start effect and how these disruptions in our lives can
Speaker 1: lead us to sort of be in a new environment
Speaker 1: and you can therefore explore and you don't have old
Speaker 1: bad habits necessarily already built to fall back on, there's
Speaker 1: also an opportunity to do that in terms of mindset shift.
Speaker 1: So I think when we have a set of beliefs
Speaker 1: and expectations, were less likely to explore and read and
Speaker 1: talk to people outside of our perspective. But if we can,
Speaker 1: if there's a moment that creates or forces some experimentation
Speaker 1: and exploration, that can be incredibly powerful. Yeah. I like
Speaker 1: that too, because it's not so pointed, right, It's not
Speaker 1: like I need you to change your opinion about this thing.
Speaker 1: It's let me just try to get you to expose
Speaker 1: yourself to stuff. Period. I'm wondering if you have any
Speaker 1: concrete ideas on how we can motivate people to engage
Speaker 1: in that exploration, because exploration is very uncomfortable, right, Like,
Speaker 1: we all have deeply entrenched views within us. Purposely going
Speaker 1: on a mission to challenge those views is not exactly
Speaker 1: the most fun adventure. It's just it's filled with cognitive dissonance.
Speaker 1: It just feels uncomfortable. And so how do we incentivize
Speaker 1: people to go on those little missions? You know? I
Speaker 1: have to think that a big part of it is
Speaker 1: probably through social norms, which is such a powerful tool.
Speaker 1: For instance, if you end up with a roommate who's
Speaker 1: a good student, your grades are likely to be a
Speaker 1: bit higher. So you know, if we point out others
Speaker 1: like you who have changed their mind, it gives you
Speaker 1: license to say, like, oh, maybe, like it's reasonable for
Speaker 1: someone like meeting to keep exploring and keep thinking about
Speaker 1: different ideas. I think that might be a way that
Speaker 1: we can introduce this exploration concept and not have it
Speaker 1: be too threatening and have it be appealing. I think
Speaker 1: that's exactly right. I mean, it's reminding me there's this
Speaker 1: one interview I did with a woman named Megan Phelps Roper,
Speaker 1: and she ends up leaving this hate group cult church,
Speaker 1: and I was asking her, are you using your platform
Speaker 1: today to convince other people? Because there's so much research
Speaker 1: showing the power of a convert. So when you hold
Speaker 1: the views that this person in front of you previously held,
Speaker 1: and then you watch them walk you through their journey
Speaker 1: of changing their minds, it can open your mind in
Speaker 1: a really unique way because you feel attached to their
Speaker 1: former value system. Right. You know that you started in
Speaker 1: the same place, but they ended up in a different place.
Speaker 1: I know the Department of Homeland Security uses this inside
Speaker 1: all the time by recruiting former extremists to try to
Speaker 1: convert the potential extremists away from that craft. It's so
Speaker 1: interesting too, because I'm thinking about like the original, like
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty five Solomon ash experiments where he'd bring all
Speaker 1: these people into a room and he'd show them two cards.
Speaker 1: One had one line on it and one had three
Speaker 1: and you had to figure out which of those three
Speaker 1: lines was the same length as the one line. And
Speaker 1: it seems like it was really simple task and it
Speaker 1: was fairly straightforward. People didn't get it wrong except when
Speaker 1: he introduced social pressure. So he'd bring a group in
Speaker 1: and have seven of them consistently give those same wrong
Speaker 1: answer before you give your answer, and people started messing
Speaker 1: up and they're like totally confused, But was really interesting.
Speaker 1: You know. That's the famous finding. When everybody else says
Speaker 1: the wrong answer, you go along with it a lot,
Speaker 1: and you actually believe that you must be seeing things.
Speaker 1: One of my favorite subfindings that I think gets less
Speaker 1: play is that if there's just one truthful person in
Speaker 1: that set, so six people out of the seven say
Speaker 1: the wrong answer, but one says the right answer, you're
Speaker 1: much more likely to follow your intuition and say what
Speaker 1: you really think is right. So anyway, I think that
Speaker 1: that's interesting in relation to this sort of power of
Speaker 1: the one person who broke free. Just seeing one person
Speaker 1: who agrees with your shows you a slightly different worldview,
Speaker 1: can make it possible for you to feel comfortable going
Speaker 1: against the grain. Yeah, I love that, So I really
Speaker 1: want to get your thoughts on this. We are living
Speaker 1: in a world right now where we're almost in like
Speaker 1: this self help moment right where everybody's trying to optimize
Speaker 1: their lives, and I do wonder where the limits are
Speaker 1: of that, And at one point you have to say,
Speaker 1: you know what, like I just can't spend my whole
Speaker 1: life trying to optimize. I just need to kind of
Speaker 1: be and live and exist. And the reason I asked
Speaker 1: that is it's alarming to me. I'll hear certain people say, oh, yeah, no,
Speaker 1: it's super important to be bored because actually boredom makes
Speaker 1: you more productive, So like even boredom is now an
Speaker 1: instrumental thing or becoming more productive, Like oh yeah, make
Speaker 1: sure you stare out the window for at least five
Speaker 1: minutes a day, because that'll help you be more productive.
Speaker 1: I feel like sometimes we don't just do things because
Speaker 1: we've we just value those things. We always do things
Speaker 1: because they have some instrumental value in terms of achieving
Speaker 1: something else. And that's also super interesting, maya, because those
Speaker 1: are like little hacks, right, like, oh, you know, stare
Speaker 1: out the window for five minutes, And if we like
Speaker 1: fill our life with all those little hacks, we actually
Speaker 1: don't make space for the big momentous change. That's so interesting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you're saying that because it's like, oh, it's just
Speaker 1: taking up all your brain airwaves that you're not Yeah,
Speaker 1: you just don't have the time to think of macro.
Speaker 1: It's a great point. I think I'll wrath by asking
Speaker 1: what the biggest change you feel you've experienced in your
Speaker 1: life is. Oh, my gosh, there's so many, which is
Speaker 1: part of what makes life so fun. I think, honestly,
Speaker 1: one of the biggest most important changes for me went
Speaker 1: from being focused on figuring out how to do my
Speaker 1: own work or live my own life to taking on
Speaker 1: the role of coaching and helping other people. All of
Speaker 1: those relationships sort of reinforce the same change, which is
Speaker 1: how meaningful it is to be looking out for someone
Speaker 1: else besides yourself, and how much you can learn about
Speaker 1: everything when you are coaching and helping someone else. And
Speaker 1: that helped me actually be better at everything. So I
Speaker 1: would say that's the biggest shift I've had in my life,
Speaker 1: and I hope everyone will get that opportunity to have
Speaker 1: that kind of a shift. Wow, what a positive change,
Speaker 1: What a positive feet to end on. I know how
Speaker 1: busy you are, and I know how much you optimize
Speaker 1: your life in order to make room for these kinds
Speaker 1: of conversations. So thank you so much. It was really
Speaker 1: fun to chat with you. This was so fun, Oh
Speaker 1: my gosh. A Slight Change of Plans is created an
Speaker 1: executive produce by me Maya Shanker. Big thanks to everyone
Speaker 1: at Pushkin Industries, including our producer Mola Board, associate producers
Speaker 1: David Ja and Julia Goodman, executive producers Mia Lavelle and
Speaker 1: Justine Lang, senior editor Jen Guera, and sound design and
Speaker 1: mixed engineers Ben Holliday and Jason Gambrel. Thanks also to
Speaker 1: Louis Gara who wrote our theme song, and Ginger Smith
Speaker 1: who arrange the vocals, incidental music from Epidemic Sound, and
Speaker 1: of course a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You
Speaker 1: can follow a Slight Change of Plans on Instagram at
Speaker 1: doctor Maya Schunker anytime they violate our Sorry for a
Speaker 1: frog in my throat. Actually I'm like, OK. Even though
Speaker 1: I'm a vegetarian, I occasionally get a frog. You're not chewing,
Speaker 1: so it's not chewing, fitting it right back out