WEBVTT - Reach your 2023 Goals with these... Slight Changes! 0:00:14.916 --> 0:00:23.796 Pushkin Hey Slight Change listeners. Happy New Year. I hope 0:00:23.836 --> 0:00:27.476 you all had a peaceful and RESTful holiday. New Year's 0:00:27.516 --> 0:00:31.796 resolutions can often feel impossible to keep. I remember giving 0:00:31.836 --> 0:00:34.996 up on them altogether for a while. I figured, what's 0:00:34.996 --> 0:00:37.076 the point when I'm just going to give up on 0:00:37.116 --> 0:00:40.396 my goal after a few weeks of intense effort. But 0:00:40.476 --> 0:00:43.076 in the last five years or so, I finally decided 0:00:43.076 --> 0:00:45.956 to apply the best insights from behavioral science to my 0:00:45.996 --> 0:00:48.716 own life so that I could set smarter goals and 0:00:48.916 --> 0:00:52.276 actually stick to them. And it's been life changing for me. 0:00:52.756 --> 0:00:55.836 I have a completely different relationship now with goal setting 0:00:55.836 --> 0:00:58.916 and motivation, and we've talked about some of that amazing, 0:00:58.996 --> 0:01:02.396 life changing behavioral science on the show. So I decided 0:01:02.436 --> 0:01:05.396 to go back into the archives and share three interviews 0:01:05.396 --> 0:01:08.796 with experts who delve deep into useful strategies for making 0:01:08.876 --> 0:01:12.196 change in your life. They'll give you the practical tools 0:01:12.236 --> 0:01:15.116 and motivation you need to not only set great goals, 0:01:15.236 --> 0:01:19.076 but sustain your commitments well into twenty twenty three. On 0:01:19.116 --> 0:01:21.876 today's episode, we'll hear from my good friend and fellow 0:01:21.876 --> 0:01:26.276 behavioral scientists, doctor Katie Milkman, who shares evidence based techniques 0:01:26.276 --> 0:01:28.796 we can use to change our behavior and actually reach 0:01:28.796 --> 0:01:32.756 our goals, including commitment devices, the fresh start effect, and 0:01:32.836 --> 0:01:36.276 the tool of temptation bundling. I'd love to hear about 0:01:36.276 --> 0:01:39.116 which insights resonate most with you and the ones you're 0:01:39.116 --> 0:01:41.516 planning to try out. You can connect with me on 0:01:41.556 --> 0:01:56.596 Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker. My research group has studied 0:01:56.636 --> 0:01:59.956 this phenomenon where at the beginning of sort of a 0:01:59.996 --> 0:02:03.356 new chapter in your life, you are more motivated and 0:02:03.436 --> 0:02:07.236 likely to make a change. That's doctor Katie Milkman, author 0:02:07.236 --> 0:02:11.396 of the book How to Change Moments. When you leave 0:02:11.476 --> 0:02:14.716 college and you shift identity is and take on a 0:02:14.756 --> 0:02:18.076 new role, or when you become a parent, those moments 0:02:18.156 --> 0:02:21.356 they feel like new beginnings and chapter breaks in our lives, 0:02:21.396 --> 0:02:24.876 and they free us from the baggage that we had before. 0:02:25.436 --> 0:02:28.556 A lot of people who do make big change are 0:02:28.676 --> 0:02:33.036 looking at moments that feel like breaking points and doing it. 0:02:34.196 --> 0:02:37.716 Katie Milkman's a professor of behavioral economics at the University 0:02:37.756 --> 0:02:41.316 of Pennsylvania. She's also a friend and collaborator. We got 0:02:41.356 --> 0:02:43.276 to work together on some projects when I was in 0:02:43.276 --> 0:02:46.116 the Obama White House, and she happens to be an 0:02:46.156 --> 0:02:49.836 expert on change. As you know, this show is all 0:02:49.876 --> 0:02:53.276 about how people navigate the big changes in life. We're 0:02:53.316 --> 0:02:56.436 talking swing for the fences, change your life type changes. 0:02:57.316 --> 0:02:59.836 What Katie's research has taught me over the years is 0:02:59.876 --> 0:03:03.276 that small tweaks to our mindset in daily behaviors can 0:03:03.316 --> 0:03:07.596 actually inspire big change within ourselves. I've personally been using 0:03:07.596 --> 0:03:10.596 insights from Katie's research my own life for a while now. 0:03:11.356 --> 0:03:14.036 In this special episode, Katie and I dive deep into 0:03:14.076 --> 0:03:17.156 the science of change. I hope our conversation will leave 0:03:17.196 --> 0:03:19.756 you with some valuable tips to help your approach change 0:03:19.796 --> 0:03:23.316 differently in your own life. I'm Maya Shankar and this 0:03:23.396 --> 0:03:46.876 is a slight change of plants. Well, Katie, I was 0:03:46.916 --> 0:03:51.236 curious to know how you got into the topic of change. Honestly, 0:03:51.716 --> 0:03:54.236 I was in love with behavioral science, but it took 0:03:54.236 --> 0:03:56.236 me a little while to figure out that I wanted 0:03:56.236 --> 0:03:59.356 to focus on change. And what happened is I went 0:03:59.436 --> 0:04:02.956 to a seminar over at the med school and there's 0:04:02.956 --> 0:04:05.756 a bunch of brilliant people over there thinking about behavioral 0:04:05.756 --> 0:04:08.236 science and medicine. How can we help patients make better decisions? 0:04:08.236 --> 0:04:10.476 How can we improve the scions of doctors as well. 0:04:10.836 --> 0:04:14.116 And I was in this seminar and a graph went up, 0:04:14.316 --> 0:04:16.716 which normally doesn't change your life, but this graph changed 0:04:16.796 --> 0:04:20.636 my life. The graph just showed a breakdown of how 0:04:20.636 --> 0:04:24.676 many premature deaths are due to different causes, from you know, 0:04:24.756 --> 0:04:32.516 accidents to environment to daily decisions, and forty percent of 0:04:32.556 --> 0:04:35.876 premature deaths turn out to be the result of decisions 0:04:35.916 --> 0:04:38.236 that we can change on a daily basis about things 0:04:38.276 --> 0:04:41.156 like whether or not we drink or smoke, what we eat, 0:04:41.156 --> 0:04:44.196 whether or not we're physically active, we buckle our seat belts. 0:04:44.556 --> 0:04:47.276 Those kinds of decisions accumulate more than I could have 0:04:47.436 --> 0:04:50.316 ever imagined. I had just no idea of the magnitude. 0:04:50.516 --> 0:04:52.796 And when I saw that and realized, you know, the 0:04:52.836 --> 0:04:57.636 tools of behavioral science could be applied to improve health 0:04:57.676 --> 0:05:00.876 outcomes and health decisions, I could have this enormous impact. 0:05:00.876 --> 0:05:02.876 And then then I sort of started thinking, like, Okay, well, 0:05:02.916 --> 0:05:04.716 if it matters that much with health, it's sort of 0:05:04.756 --> 0:05:09.036 obvious that it would accumulate in areas like savings and education. 0:05:09.116 --> 0:05:12.276 And similarly, even if I've never seen an exact breakdown 0:05:12.636 --> 0:05:15.636 of that sort, so that really just got me excited 0:05:15.716 --> 0:05:17.956 about the potential to use this thing that I found 0:05:17.996 --> 0:05:22.916 so interesting, so exciting and fun to actually have an impact. 0:05:23.876 --> 0:05:25.556 So that was that was it for me. I'm really 0:05:25.636 --> 0:05:29.356 curious about how your journey changed, because you've had many 0:05:29.396 --> 0:05:32.596 career shifts, but you certainly went from you know, a 0:05:32.636 --> 0:05:36.476 more laboratory based focus too, you know, jumping into the 0:05:36.556 --> 0:05:40.396 White House to tackle change head on from a policy perspective. 0:05:40.436 --> 0:05:44.596 How did how did you shift? It's interesting because in 0:05:44.636 --> 0:05:47.116 my mind, my big shift in life was from the 0:05:47.196 --> 0:05:51.156 violin to cognitive science that I'm just remembering, like, oh wait, 0:05:51.196 --> 0:05:54.836 I also had this other really big shift changes and 0:05:55.356 --> 0:05:58.836 changing person to host. Um. I think this is true 0:05:58.876 --> 0:06:00.876 across science too, But certainly when we were working in 0:06:00.876 --> 0:06:04.356 the government, the stakes feel so high you just can't 0:06:04.356 --> 0:06:07.036 screw up because these are real people's lives and they 0:06:07.036 --> 0:06:10.276 can be affected by the work you're doing. And yeah, 0:06:10.276 --> 0:06:12.716 it's so funny. Mean, we actually worked together on some projects. 0:06:13.116 --> 0:06:15.236 Actually one of them used an insight from your book, 0:06:15.476 --> 0:06:17.956 and it was the fresh Start Effect. And I'm curious 0:06:17.996 --> 0:06:20.396 if you can share what the fresh Start effect is. 0:06:20.636 --> 0:06:23.196 It was very exciting at the time to have hot 0:06:23.236 --> 0:06:26.316 off the press's research coming out of your lad actually 0:06:26.316 --> 0:06:29.036 applied to a problem that we were trying to solve 0:06:29.116 --> 0:06:32.076 in the government. So my research group has studied this 0:06:32.396 --> 0:06:35.436 phenomenon where at the beginning of sort of a new 0:06:35.516 --> 0:06:38.996 chapter in your life, you are more motivated and likely 0:06:39.036 --> 0:06:42.236 to make a change. And we've often studied small changes 0:06:42.276 --> 0:06:44.396 in this context, like you go to the gym more, 0:06:44.596 --> 0:06:48.636 or you search on Google for the term diet more frequently, 0:06:48.756 --> 0:06:50.356 or you're more likely to set a goal on a 0:06:50.396 --> 0:06:54.476 goal setting website. But I also think you know where 0:06:54.476 --> 0:06:58.276 the interest in this topic came from was the realization 0:06:58.316 --> 0:07:01.356 that a lot of people who do make big change 0:07:01.716 --> 0:07:06.596 are looking at moments that feel like breaking points and 0:07:05.996 --> 0:07:08.876 doing it. And so I tell stories about bigger changes 0:07:09.236 --> 0:07:14.076 book moments when you leave college and you shift identity 0:07:14.316 --> 0:07:16.716 is and take on a new role, or when you 0:07:16.716 --> 0:07:20.476 become a parent. Those moments they feel like new beginnings 0:07:20.476 --> 0:07:23.116 and chapter breaks in our lives, and I think they're 0:07:23.196 --> 0:07:26.316 freeing in a way. They free us from the baggage 0:07:26.356 --> 0:07:29.036 that we had before. But they can also be freeing 0:07:29.156 --> 0:07:32.876 psychologically because we feel like you're a new person. You 0:07:32.876 --> 0:07:36.116 can take on a new identity. Whatever wasn't working before, 0:07:37.036 --> 0:07:40.676 whatever ambition you failed to have before you can shed 0:07:40.796 --> 0:07:43.156 that and say okay, now I can do it. So anyway, 0:07:43.236 --> 0:07:44.796 I do think we could study big change, and I 0:07:44.836 --> 0:07:47.556 actually think some of the research we've done around small 0:07:47.636 --> 0:07:50.956 change is inspired by a recognition that these might also 0:07:50.996 --> 0:07:54.916 be the triggers for big change. Was there a particular 0:07:54.996 --> 0:07:58.796 moment in your life where you felt the fresh start 0:07:58.796 --> 0:08:01.396 effect play out, where it really felt like a new 0:08:01.396 --> 0:08:03.676 beginning and there was a certain set of habits or 0:08:03.716 --> 0:08:07.036 behavior changes that you witnessed. Oh my gosh, I mean 0:08:07.076 --> 0:08:11.156 you know, I do mesearch so totally, meaning like a 0:08:11.156 --> 0:08:13.756 lot of my research is motivated by like, oh wow, 0:08:13.796 --> 0:08:15.476 that's weird. I wonder if other people, and then I 0:08:15.556 --> 0:08:18.036 like asked my friends, oh yes, me too, and then 0:08:18.076 --> 0:08:20.716 I realized, okay, like this might be this might be 0:08:20.876 --> 0:08:24.436 something we're shutting. I will say one example that I 0:08:24.596 --> 0:08:27.996 love is that I realized I wanted to write this 0:08:28.036 --> 0:08:32.676 book for a long time. Finally what happened that triggered 0:08:32.676 --> 0:08:36.796 it When I actually began. My son was three years old. 0:08:36.996 --> 0:08:38.436 We decided we were going to move out of our 0:08:38.476 --> 0:08:41.116 apartment into a house. We bought the house, we signed 0:08:41.116 --> 0:08:43.196 the papers, and that day I said, you know what, 0:08:43.356 --> 0:08:46.636 I'm ready, we're moving to a new house. It's a 0:08:46.636 --> 0:08:49.036 fresh start. This is a moment and the project started 0:08:49.076 --> 0:08:51.596 from there. So that was a big one for me. Interesting. 0:08:52.436 --> 0:08:54.676 One of the anecdotes around the fresh start that I 0:08:54.676 --> 0:08:59.116 love the most is Obama decided that he would stop 0:08:59.836 --> 0:09:04.156 smoking for good when the Affordable Care Act passed, and 0:09:04.236 --> 0:09:06.956 I was like, wait, a next level the fresh start effect, 0:09:07.036 --> 0:09:10.596 Like he truly chose us in a lifetime experience to 0:09:10.636 --> 0:09:13.756 anchor his commitment on. And it was like aligned on, 0:09:13.916 --> 0:09:16.756 you know, it was aligned on like a health focus. Yes, 0:09:16.876 --> 0:09:20.156 of course, of course Obama one ups all of us 0:09:20.236 --> 0:09:23.236 and does the thing in the best way imaginable. Duh. 0:09:23.916 --> 0:09:26.316 But I do love that, Like there's no other future, 0:09:26.356 --> 0:09:27.836 one of those where he can be like, oh maybe 0:09:27.876 --> 0:09:29.596 I can cave a little now because they'll be this 0:09:29.676 --> 0:09:33.076 other right the other time I pass health Yeah, the 0:09:33.116 --> 0:09:36.236 other time I pass healthcare as president. I love that, 0:09:36.276 --> 0:09:38.076 and I don't I don't think I knew that. Actually, 0:09:38.156 --> 0:09:41.076 that's amazing. Um, have you used the fresh start effect 0:09:41.076 --> 0:09:43.116 maya or like in hindsight, have you ever noticed that 0:09:43.156 --> 0:09:46.676 a fresh start shifted? I have something for you, I swear, 0:09:46.916 --> 0:09:50.556 I swear to God every Sunday. I'm committing to eating healthily. 0:09:50.756 --> 0:09:54.156 It's just that there's too many damn Sundays, and so 0:09:54.236 --> 0:09:56.676 I always feel like I've gotten on to give it 0:09:56.716 --> 0:09:59.596 a go. Yeah, but yeah, I mean, I think it's 0:09:59.636 --> 0:10:03.716 it's hard for so many of us to keep our resolutions. 0:10:03.836 --> 0:10:06.756 And in reading your book, it did make me think, Okay, 0:10:07.076 --> 0:10:13.676 choose really markable milestones for pivoting, like big moves, like 0:10:13.716 --> 0:10:17.916 when I moved from DC to California, getting married, big 0:10:17.956 --> 0:10:20.236 events like that, because I do think you feel like 0:10:20.276 --> 0:10:23.476 your identity is changing a bit, and any behaviors at 0:10:23.476 --> 0:10:26.236 a company identity shifts might be more sticky, or at 0:10:26.276 --> 0:10:28.476 least they have than in my experience. I think that's right. 0:10:28.516 --> 0:10:30.196 And you get the benefit not only of the sort 0:10:30.196 --> 0:10:33.636 of psychological break and the fresh start and opening a 0:10:33.636 --> 0:10:37.156 new chapter, but you also have physical change, which is 0:10:37.156 --> 0:10:39.796 so important to disrupting sort of bad habits or routines 0:10:39.876 --> 0:10:42.436 and giving you that real blank slate to build upon 0:10:42.476 --> 0:10:43.836 and say like, oh, I'm not going to go to 0:10:43.876 --> 0:10:46.756 the burrito shop every day for lunch, or you know, 0:10:46.796 --> 0:10:48.596 whatever your bad habit is that you want to kick 0:10:48.996 --> 0:10:52.356 um exactly. Yeah, I think one of my favorite insights 0:10:52.356 --> 0:10:54.276 from the book, and it's inside I've been using in 0:10:54.276 --> 0:10:57.036 my own life since I read your research years ago. 0:10:57.556 --> 0:11:01.116 Is around temptation bundling. Do you mind for sharing what 0:11:01.156 --> 0:11:02.556 that is? And then I'd love to let you know 0:11:02.596 --> 0:11:05.716 how I've been using it. Yeah, I want to hear 0:11:05.756 --> 0:11:08.876 about your temptation funneling. Um that this is gonna be fun. 0:11:09.236 --> 0:11:12.396 So temptation bundling is a solution I came up with 0:11:12.716 --> 0:11:15.956 because I had two problems. Taking you back to grad 0:11:15.996 --> 0:11:19.076 school again. I was taking all these hard engineering classes 0:11:19.076 --> 0:11:21.236 and I was stressed out, and I'd come home after 0:11:21.276 --> 0:11:24.316 a long day of classes, and all I wanted to 0:11:24.356 --> 0:11:27.476 do was just like indulge in entertainment, right, like turn 0:11:27.556 --> 0:11:31.436 on Netflix and binge watch TV, read tempting novels. So 0:11:31.476 --> 0:11:33.356 I just wanted I wanted to dive into that and 0:11:33.476 --> 0:11:36.156 escape my reality, and I didn't want to do my 0:11:36.156 --> 0:11:38.676 problem sets. On the flip side, I also knew I 0:11:38.676 --> 0:11:42.996 should really be getting exercise. I was an athlete in college, 0:11:43.516 --> 0:11:45.516 but again when I came home from a long day, 0:11:45.596 --> 0:11:47.556 I didn't want to put on sweats and go to 0:11:47.636 --> 0:11:50.236 the gym. So these two problems, like I couldn't get 0:11:50.276 --> 0:11:52.956 myself to do my homework because I was procrastinating, indulging 0:11:52.956 --> 0:11:55.796 in all this entertainment, and I couldn't get myself to exercise. 0:11:55.836 --> 0:11:58.076 And all of a sudden, I realized, like, wait a minute, 0:11:58.356 --> 0:12:00.476 what if I solved them all at once? What if 0:12:00.516 --> 0:12:04.236 I only let myself enjoy this entertainment that I love 0:12:04.276 --> 0:12:07.436 so much while I'm exercising, I'd start craving trips to 0:12:07.476 --> 0:12:09.516 the gym to find out what happens next in my 0:12:09.596 --> 0:12:12.796 latest page turner, and I would stop wasting time at 0:12:12.796 --> 0:12:15.636 home on this sort of literary garbage that normally captures 0:12:15.676 --> 0:12:17.796 my attention, and I just focus on my problem sets. 0:12:17.876 --> 0:12:20.316 And I started doing it. Was just like magic. I 0:12:20.436 --> 0:12:22.916 worked out every day. Time flew while I was at 0:12:22.916 --> 0:12:25.076 the gym because I was engrossed in Harry Potter or 0:12:25.116 --> 0:12:27.476 Alex Cross. And when I got home, I was ready 0:12:27.516 --> 0:12:29.316 to work because I'd already had my indulgence and I 0:12:29.476 --> 0:12:32.036 wasn't as stressed out. And I also realized like I 0:12:32.076 --> 0:12:34.796 could use them not only to help me exercise, but 0:12:34.876 --> 0:12:37.036 in lots of places, like if you just tie something 0:12:37.116 --> 0:12:40.236 tempting to a chore, you can magically turn it into 0:12:40.316 --> 0:12:42.476 something you look forward to and do less of that 0:12:42.756 --> 0:12:45.836 indulgent thing and feel less guilty about it, Like you know, 0:12:45.916 --> 0:12:48.156 if only you get a glass of wine while you're 0:12:48.196 --> 0:12:50.076 making a home cooked meal, or listen to your favorite 0:12:50.116 --> 0:12:53.196 podcast while you're doing chores. For all your listeners who 0:12:53.236 --> 0:12:55.756 are doing laundry right now, Katie and I are carrying 0:12:55.836 --> 0:12:59.476 you on. Go for it. Yes, your temptation bundling. You 0:12:59.516 --> 0:13:03.116 didn't know there was a name for it, Yes, exactly. Okay, 0:13:03.156 --> 0:13:05.756 So I one of my favorite things in life is 0:13:05.836 --> 0:13:09.996 discovering a new pop song that I love. And what 0:13:10.156 --> 0:13:13.356 makes me really sad is that I very quickly, like 0:13:13.436 --> 0:13:16.196 it loses the spark after a certain number of listens, 0:13:16.356 --> 0:13:19.756 Like you just know, you only have fifteen amazing listens 0:13:19.796 --> 0:13:22.036 with the song and before before it kind of becomes 0:13:22.116 --> 0:13:24.716 old hat. Right, So, as soon as I discover an 0:13:24.716 --> 0:13:28.436 amazing song, I will only allow myself to listen to 0:13:28.556 --> 0:13:31.196 it while I'm working out from that point on, And like, 0:13:31.276 --> 0:13:33.556 I'm a really non fun wife because my husband sometimes 0:13:33.596 --> 0:13:35.636 and I will discover the song together and we'll be 0:13:35.716 --> 0:13:38.156 cooking in the evening, We'll be having fun. He's like, Hey, 0:13:38.236 --> 0:13:41.156 let's play that new album by Casey Musgraves, who's one 0:13:41.196 --> 0:13:43.596 of my favorite artists, and I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, 0:13:43.716 --> 0:13:47.036 you don't understand. That's only like a treadmill elliptical song 0:13:47.796 --> 0:13:49.796 because I just feel like I have to protect it 0:13:49.836 --> 0:13:51.876 and save it. But it certainly makes the work out 0:13:51.916 --> 0:13:55.116 a lot more tolerable and a little bit more exciting. 0:13:55.316 --> 0:13:57.636 So yes, I love pop music too, and I feel 0:13:57.636 --> 0:13:59.956 like we should trade some song recommendations later so we 0:14:00.036 --> 0:14:06.196 can each share. It's now very seriously tied to my exercise. 0:14:06.236 --> 0:14:09.316 Between intact, the one thing that can happen is when 0:14:09.356 --> 0:14:13.236 you temptation bundle. Sometimes what can happen is the intrinsic 0:14:13.316 --> 0:14:17.516 extrinsic motivation balance gets thrown off kilter a bit. So 0:14:17.676 --> 0:14:20.676 it's like, initially I'm just using all of my internal 0:14:20.756 --> 0:14:23.476 will to go exercise, but now I've got this extrinsic motivator, 0:14:23.596 --> 0:14:25.916 which is a song. So on the rare occasion where 0:14:25.956 --> 0:14:27.996 like my headphones are out of battery, or like my 0:14:28.116 --> 0:14:30.876 phone's Wi Fi is not working, I'm like, oh, I 0:14:30.996 --> 0:14:32.636 don't know if I can do this anymore. Just have 0:14:32.716 --> 0:14:35.316 to make sure your headphones are always working in your 0:14:36.356 --> 0:14:41.876 your iPhone is always charged or whatever. Yes, I'm wondering 0:14:41.956 --> 0:14:44.356 whether for temptation bundling. You see this plate on the 0:14:44.436 --> 0:14:49.476 wild in places that were behavior change feels a little 0:14:49.516 --> 0:14:53.116 bit more serious. That's interesting. I'm trying to think if 0:14:53.116 --> 0:14:56.876 I have a great answer for you. There's a study 0:14:56.916 --> 0:14:59.516 I love of teachers who are trying to figure out 0:14:59.516 --> 0:15:03.396 how to motivate their students to do more math problems, 0:15:03.436 --> 0:15:06.476 which kids apparently say they like doing math about as 0:15:06.556 --> 0:15:08.356 much as they like eating broccoli. So that tells you 0:15:08.476 --> 0:15:11.596 something about how delightful it is. And math is so 0:15:11.796 --> 0:15:17.556 important to everything, as we both know. So these two 0:15:17.636 --> 0:15:22.716 researchers suggested, basically a temptation bundle. What if the kids 0:15:22.876 --> 0:15:26.116 could you listen to music, have snacks markers that they 0:15:26.236 --> 0:15:28.116 like using, And they did that all on the day 0:15:28.116 --> 0:15:31.956 when they're doing their math worksheets, but not at other times. 0:15:32.436 --> 0:15:35.276 And the teachers were sort of skeptical. They were like, 0:15:35.756 --> 0:15:38.556 I think they'll focus less could so I'll be distracted. 0:15:38.836 --> 0:15:41.516 And it turned out that kids persisted longer on math 0:15:41.596 --> 0:15:44.756 when they were randomly assigned to groups that had these 0:15:45.556 --> 0:15:48.396 i'll say temptations linked with them. It's not you know, 0:15:48.436 --> 0:15:51.836 it's not changing their lives in that day. It is cumulative. 0:15:51.916 --> 0:15:54.036 But I think that that's an example of like some 0:15:54.236 --> 0:15:56.476 of the big goals we have in life, whether it's 0:15:56.916 --> 0:16:00.236 getting through your math assignments or finishing a dissertation, if 0:16:00.276 --> 0:16:01.956 you can find a way to make it more enjoyable, 0:16:02.036 --> 0:16:05.316 that really matters. I love the math example, I think 0:16:05.356 --> 0:16:07.636 for two reasons. I mean, the first is I just 0:16:07.796 --> 0:16:11.956 love any time research findings violate our expectations. You know, 0:16:11.996 --> 0:16:13.956 when the teachers are like, oh, I'm not really sure 0:16:13.996 --> 0:16:16.236 that this is a good idea, but then you're able 0:16:16.316 --> 0:16:19.876 to generate empirical data that runs counter to that hypothesis. 0:16:20.236 --> 0:16:23.436 That's wonderful because it's moving the field forward. And I 0:16:23.516 --> 0:16:26.156 think the other reason I love it is that, you know, 0:16:26.316 --> 0:16:29.196 success begets success, passion begets passion. It's kind of one 0:16:29.196 --> 0:16:31.716 of those things where if you get a kid just 0:16:31.876 --> 0:16:34.516 through that initial period and they're just learning the basics, 0:16:34.596 --> 0:16:38.476 getting over those initial super hard humps, then they might 0:16:38.516 --> 0:16:40.996 actually realize that they really like this thing and then 0:16:41.076 --> 0:16:43.596 just becomes easier and easier and easier to do every 0:16:43.676 --> 0:16:47.156 problem from that point forward. So I do feel like 0:16:47.276 --> 0:16:50.236 you can have massive long term effects. I'm with you. 0:16:50.316 --> 0:16:52.636 And if they have positive associations with math, I mean 0:16:52.876 --> 0:16:59.516 what more could we hope for. We'll be right back 0:16:59.596 --> 0:17:13.676 with a slight change of plans. In this episode, doctor 0:17:13.756 --> 0:17:16.196 Katie Melfin and I are talking about the science of 0:17:16.316 --> 0:17:18.796 change and the different techniques we can use to spur 0:17:18.956 --> 0:17:22.396 on that change. One technique is called a commitment device, 0:17:22.756 --> 0:17:24.996 which locks you into a plan to reach your long 0:17:25.116 --> 0:17:28.316 term goals. The key feature of a conmitment device is 0:17:28.356 --> 0:17:30.916 that if you don't follow through with your plan, there's 0:17:30.956 --> 0:17:34.636 some sort of penalty in place. I remember, I'm curious 0:17:34.676 --> 0:17:37.316 if you actually remember the experience of first learning about them, 0:17:37.356 --> 0:17:40.276 because for me, it was like mind blowing how powerful 0:17:40.356 --> 0:17:43.316 they were, and actually mind blowing how few people use 0:17:43.396 --> 0:17:45.556 them given how powerful they are. But the study that 0:17:45.676 --> 0:17:49.156 I love that really I think illustrates nicely how much 0:17:49.236 --> 0:17:52.196 they can help us is a study where they partnered 0:17:52.236 --> 0:17:54.916 with a bank in the Philippines that saw low savings 0:17:55.036 --> 0:17:56.476 rates and wanted to figure out if there was a 0:17:56.516 --> 0:17:58.716 way to help people save more so they'd have the 0:17:58.756 --> 0:18:02.956 ability to have better health have better life outcomes. Where 0:18:03.076 --> 0:18:05.156 they came up with this idea that one of the 0:18:05.276 --> 0:18:08.196 reasons people were having trouble accumulating savings balances is they 0:18:08.236 --> 0:18:10.676 were constantly tempted to dip in. They were like, they 0:18:10.716 --> 0:18:13.036 opened the bank account and then they put some money aside, 0:18:13.076 --> 0:18:15.796 but then somebody's birthday or there's a holiday, and then 0:18:15.876 --> 0:18:18.916 so the money came right back out and it never accumulated. 0:18:18.996 --> 0:18:20.756 And that people said, you know, actually, I'd kind of 0:18:20.836 --> 0:18:22.916 like it if I couldn't get them money out. I 0:18:23.236 --> 0:18:26.236 kind of wish I couldn't act on those impulses. So 0:18:26.356 --> 0:18:28.316 they developed this new kind of account. It was a 0:18:28.356 --> 0:18:31.316 commitment savings account. So you put money in and you 0:18:31.476 --> 0:18:33.796 are not allowed to take it out until a predetermined 0:18:33.876 --> 0:18:37.036 date you choose, or a savings goal you choose. They 0:18:37.116 --> 0:18:40.236 offered this kind of account to you know, a random 0:18:40.276 --> 0:18:42.996 subset of customers alongside the usual account with the same 0:18:43.076 --> 0:18:47.196 interest rate, but free in and out access. They saved 0:18:47.356 --> 0:18:51.476 eighty percent more year over year than the control I 0:18:51.556 --> 0:18:55.676 mean eighty percent more savings. Right, you've studied savings like that. 0:18:55.876 --> 0:18:59.476 That's life changing. So I love that story. That's a 0:18:59.596 --> 0:19:02.316 hard commitment because when you put your money in, there 0:19:02.436 --> 0:19:05.196 is another you know, there's a third party the bank 0:19:05.356 --> 0:19:08.116 that is saying like you cannot have it. It is 0:19:08.196 --> 0:19:10.676 not accessible to you. I'm preventing I'm preventing you from 0:19:10.796 --> 0:19:12.996 So there's like a hard restriction on access to something, 0:19:13.116 --> 0:19:15.436 and a commitment device is something you voluntarily opt into 0:19:15.716 --> 0:19:18.756 that restricts you or penalizes you in some way if 0:19:18.756 --> 0:19:20.716 you don't achieve your goals or pursue your goals in 0:19:20.756 --> 0:19:22.556 the way you intend to. So that's a hard one 0:19:22.636 --> 0:19:26.236 because there's no fudging it. There's soft commitments in the 0:19:26.276 --> 0:19:30.276 world too, Like you know, you tell your partner or 0:19:30.436 --> 0:19:32.676 your mom you're going to do something, and then they 0:19:33.196 --> 0:19:35.836 ask them to give you a hard time if you don't. 0:19:36.116 --> 0:19:38.196 That's like a weak commitment device. You're gonna get a 0:19:38.236 --> 0:19:41.596 little You're gonna get ribbed a little bit. You're accountable 0:19:41.636 --> 0:19:44.236 to someone, but you can back out. Yeah. I also 0:19:44.276 --> 0:19:47.996 remember learning about commitment devices for the first time. Gosh, 0:19:48.076 --> 0:19:50.876 we sound like such nerds are for years, Katie. Do 0:19:50.876 --> 0:19:53.316 you remember where you were remember the day you learned 0:19:53.356 --> 0:19:56.796 about commitment devices? I mean remember exactly where I was. 0:19:57.116 --> 0:19:59.276 I mean, I'm like, yeah, I was in a class room. 0:19:59.476 --> 0:20:04.676 My head exploded. Where were you? I was in my 0:20:04.796 --> 0:20:06.476 kitchen with my roommates, and I was reading this paper 0:20:06.516 --> 0:20:08.156 and I was like, oh, this is so exciting. The 0:20:08.236 --> 0:20:11.956 researchers ran a study in which they had people outline where, when, 0:20:11.996 --> 0:20:14.436 and how they were planning to get vaccinated. So that 0:20:14.596 --> 0:20:16.796 was my study. Oh my gosh, this is so fun. 0:20:16.876 --> 0:20:19.036 The flu shot study I'm talking about is your study. 0:20:19.076 --> 0:20:23.316 See that's awesome. Okay, well the seminal work by doctor Milkman. 0:20:24.716 --> 0:20:27.196 So in your study you ask people where, when, and 0:20:27.276 --> 0:20:29.276 how you're going to go get vaccinated, right, And I 0:20:29.356 --> 0:20:31.316 think what was so studying to me is like, so 0:20:31.356 --> 0:20:33.156 you write down this forum. You know, I maya nine 0:20:33.196 --> 0:20:35.916 am after I drop off my husband at work and 0:20:36.036 --> 0:20:38.076 I go pick up my groceries, I'm going to go 0:20:38.196 --> 0:20:40.636 to the CBS can get my flu vaccine. And what 0:20:40.836 --> 0:20:44.196 was astonishing to me is that it significantly increased the 0:20:44.476 --> 0:20:48.516 vaccination rate despite the fact that you weren't accountable to anyone, 0:20:48.836 --> 0:20:51.916 right in this intervention. You were not required to send 0:20:51.956 --> 0:20:54.596 the letter back to anyone, no one was on your case. 0:20:55.076 --> 0:20:57.836 You were literally just planning it out for yourself. And 0:20:57.956 --> 0:21:01.436 that was enough to significantly drive the numbers up, which 0:21:01.476 --> 0:21:05.156 to me again was such an extraordinary, lightlift, low cost 0:21:05.276 --> 0:21:08.716 intervention that could potentially save people's lives. And in your 0:21:08.756 --> 0:21:11.756 book talk about the fact that we all have a 0:21:11.836 --> 0:21:14.796 fairly Maybe not everyone, but many people have a very 0:21:14.876 --> 0:21:19.316 high view of themselves, so they feel like they might 0:21:19.436 --> 0:21:23.396 not benefit that much from commitment devices. And you know, 0:21:23.436 --> 0:21:26.796 we can be very over optimistic about our ability to 0:21:26.916 --> 0:21:30.076 use willpower to avoid temptation. And I'm wondering if you 0:21:30.156 --> 0:21:33.196 have any thoughts or advice for helping people overcome this 0:21:33.396 --> 0:21:37.836 overconfidence so that they can achieve their goals. Yeah, it's funny. 0:21:37.956 --> 0:21:41.476 Optimism is a really good thing, but in this particular case, 0:21:41.636 --> 0:21:45.156 it plays tricks on us that are problematic because we 0:21:45.356 --> 0:21:49.556 don't in general persevere as much as we think we will, 0:21:49.916 --> 0:21:53.116 and we do tend to be present biased, right, so 0:21:53.276 --> 0:21:59.196