1 00:00:14,916 --> 00:00:23,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin Hey Slight Change listeners. Happy New Year. I hope 2 00:00:23,836 --> 00:00:27,476 Speaker 1: you all had a peaceful and RESTful holiday. New Year's 3 00:00:27,516 --> 00:00:31,796 Speaker 1: resolutions can often feel impossible to keep. I remember giving 4 00:00:31,836 --> 00:00:34,996 Speaker 1: up on them altogether for a while. I figured, what's 5 00:00:34,996 --> 00:00:37,076 Speaker 1: the point when I'm just going to give up on 6 00:00:37,116 --> 00:00:40,396 Speaker 1: my goal after a few weeks of intense effort. But 7 00:00:40,476 --> 00:00:43,076 Speaker 1: in the last five years or so, I finally decided 8 00:00:43,076 --> 00:00:45,956 Speaker 1: to apply the best insights from behavioral science to my 9 00:00:45,996 --> 00:00:48,716 Speaker 1: own life so that I could set smarter goals and 10 00:00:48,916 --> 00:00:52,276 Speaker 1: actually stick to them. And it's been life changing for me. 11 00:00:52,756 --> 00:00:55,836 Speaker 1: I have a completely different relationship now with goal setting 12 00:00:55,836 --> 00:00:58,916 Speaker 1: and motivation, and we've talked about some of that amazing, 13 00:00:58,996 --> 00:01:02,396 Speaker 1: life changing behavioral science on the show. So I decided 14 00:01:02,436 --> 00:01:05,396 Speaker 1: to go back into the archives and share three interviews 15 00:01:05,396 --> 00:01:08,796 Speaker 1: with experts who delve deep into useful strategies for making 16 00:01:08,876 --> 00:01:12,196 Speaker 1: change in your life. They'll give you the practical tools 17 00:01:12,236 --> 00:01:15,116 Speaker 1: and motivation you need to not only set great goals, 18 00:01:15,236 --> 00:01:19,076 Speaker 1: but sustain your commitments well into twenty twenty three. On 19 00:01:19,116 --> 00:01:21,876 Speaker 1: today's episode, we'll hear from my good friend and fellow 20 00:01:21,876 --> 00:01:26,276 Speaker 1: behavioral scientists, doctor Katie Milkman, who shares evidence based techniques 21 00:01:26,276 --> 00:01:28,796 Speaker 1: we can use to change our behavior and actually reach 22 00:01:28,796 --> 00:01:32,756 Speaker 1: our goals, including commitment devices, the fresh start effect, and 23 00:01:32,836 --> 00:01:36,276 Speaker 1: the tool of temptation bundling. I'd love to hear about 24 00:01:36,276 --> 00:01:39,116 Speaker 1: which insights resonate most with you and the ones you're 25 00:01:39,116 --> 00:01:41,516 Speaker 1: planning to try out. You can connect with me on 26 00:01:41,556 --> 00:01:56,596 Speaker 1: Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker. My research group has studied 27 00:01:56,636 --> 00:01:59,956 Speaker 1: this phenomenon where at the beginning of sort of a 28 00:01:59,996 --> 00:02:03,356 Speaker 1: new chapter in your life, you are more motivated and 29 00:02:03,436 --> 00:02:07,236 Speaker 1: likely to make a change. That's doctor Katie Milkman, author 30 00:02:07,236 --> 00:02:11,396 Speaker 1: of the book How to Change Moments. When you leave 31 00:02:11,476 --> 00:02:14,716 Speaker 1: college and you shift identity is and take on a 32 00:02:14,756 --> 00:02:18,076 Speaker 1: new role, or when you become a parent, those moments 33 00:02:18,156 --> 00:02:21,356 Speaker 1: they feel like new beginnings and chapter breaks in our lives, 34 00:02:21,396 --> 00:02:24,876 Speaker 1: and they free us from the baggage that we had before. 35 00:02:25,436 --> 00:02:28,556 Speaker 1: A lot of people who do make big change are 36 00:02:28,676 --> 00:02:33,036 Speaker 1: looking at moments that feel like breaking points and doing it. 37 00:02:34,196 --> 00:02:37,716 Speaker 1: Katie Milkman's a professor of behavioral economics at the University 38 00:02:37,756 --> 00:02:41,316 Speaker 1: of Pennsylvania. She's also a friend and collaborator. We got 39 00:02:41,356 --> 00:02:43,276 Speaker 1: to work together on some projects when I was in 40 00:02:43,276 --> 00:02:46,116 Speaker 1: the Obama White House, and she happens to be an 41 00:02:46,156 --> 00:02:49,836 Speaker 1: expert on change. As you know, this show is all 42 00:02:49,876 --> 00:02:53,276 Speaker 1: about how people navigate the big changes in life. We're 43 00:02:53,316 --> 00:02:56,436 Speaker 1: talking swing for the fences, change your life type changes. 44 00:02:57,316 --> 00:02:59,836 Speaker 1: What Katie's research has taught me over the years is 45 00:02:59,876 --> 00:03:03,276 Speaker 1: that small tweaks to our mindset in daily behaviors can 46 00:03:03,316 --> 00:03:07,596 Speaker 1: actually inspire big change within ourselves. I've personally been using 47 00:03:07,596 --> 00:03:10,596 Speaker 1: insights from Katie's research my own life for a while now. 48 00:03:11,356 --> 00:03:14,036 Speaker 1: In this special episode, Katie and I dive deep into 49 00:03:14,076 --> 00:03:17,156 Speaker 1: the science of change. I hope our conversation will leave 50 00:03:17,196 --> 00:03:19,756 Speaker 1: you with some valuable tips to help your approach change 51 00:03:19,796 --> 00:03:23,316 Speaker 1: differently in your own life. I'm Maya Shankar and this 52 00:03:23,396 --> 00:03:46,876 Speaker 1: is a slight change of plants. Well, Katie, I was 53 00:03:46,916 --> 00:03:51,236 Speaker 1: curious to know how you got into the topic of change. Honestly, 54 00:03:51,716 --> 00:03:54,236 Speaker 1: I was in love with behavioral science, but it took 55 00:03:54,236 --> 00:03:56,236 Speaker 1: me a little while to figure out that I wanted 56 00:03:56,236 --> 00:03:59,356 Speaker 1: to focus on change. And what happened is I went 57 00:03:59,436 --> 00:04:02,956 Speaker 1: to a seminar over at the med school and there's 58 00:04:02,956 --> 00:04:05,756 Speaker 1: a bunch of brilliant people over there thinking about behavioral 59 00:04:05,756 --> 00:04:08,236 Speaker 1: science and medicine. How can we help patients make better decisions? 60 00:04:08,236 --> 00:04:10,476 Speaker 1: How can we improve the scions of doctors as well. 61 00:04:10,836 --> 00:04:14,116 Speaker 1: And I was in this seminar and a graph went up, 62 00:04:14,316 --> 00:04:16,716 Speaker 1: which normally doesn't change your life, but this graph changed 63 00:04:16,796 --> 00:04:20,636 Speaker 1: my life. The graph just showed a breakdown of how 64 00:04:20,636 --> 00:04:24,676 Speaker 1: many premature deaths are due to different causes, from you know, 65 00:04:24,756 --> 00:04:32,516 Speaker 1: accidents to environment to daily decisions, and forty percent of 66 00:04:32,556 --> 00:04:35,876 Speaker 1: premature deaths turn out to be the result of decisions 67 00:04:35,916 --> 00:04:38,236 Speaker 1: that we can change on a daily basis about things 68 00:04:38,276 --> 00:04:41,156 Speaker 1: like whether or not we drink or smoke, what we eat, 69 00:04:41,156 --> 00:04:44,196 Speaker 1: whether or not we're physically active, we buckle our seat belts. 70 00:04:44,556 --> 00:04:47,276 Speaker 1: Those kinds of decisions accumulate more than I could have 71 00:04:47,436 --> 00:04:50,316 Speaker 1: ever imagined. I had just no idea of the magnitude. 72 00:04:50,516 --> 00:04:52,796 Speaker 1: And when I saw that and realized, you know, the 73 00:04:52,836 --> 00:04:57,636 Speaker 1: tools of behavioral science could be applied to improve health 74 00:04:57,676 --> 00:05:00,876 Speaker 1: outcomes and health decisions, I could have this enormous impact. 75 00:05:00,876 --> 00:05:02,876 Speaker 1: And then then I sort of started thinking, like, Okay, well, 76 00:05:02,916 --> 00:05:04,716 Speaker 1: if it matters that much with health, it's sort of 77 00:05:04,756 --> 00:05:09,036 Speaker 1: obvious that it would accumulate in areas like savings and education. 78 00:05:09,116 --> 00:05:12,276 Speaker 1: And similarly, even if I've never seen an exact breakdown 79 00:05:12,636 --> 00:05:15,636 Speaker 1: of that sort, so that really just got me excited 80 00:05:15,716 --> 00:05:17,956 Speaker 1: about the potential to use this thing that I found 81 00:05:17,996 --> 00:05:22,916 Speaker 1: so interesting, so exciting and fun to actually have an impact. 82 00:05:23,876 --> 00:05:25,556 Speaker 1: So that was that was it for me. I'm really 83 00:05:25,636 --> 00:05:29,356 Speaker 1: curious about how your journey changed, because you've had many 84 00:05:29,396 --> 00:05:32,596 Speaker 1: career shifts, but you certainly went from you know, a 85 00:05:32,636 --> 00:05:36,476 Speaker 1: more laboratory based focus too, you know, jumping into the 86 00:05:36,556 --> 00:05:40,396 Speaker 1: White House to tackle change head on from a policy perspective. 87 00:05:40,436 --> 00:05:44,596 Speaker 1: How did how did you shift? It's interesting because in 88 00:05:44,636 --> 00:05:47,116 Speaker 1: my mind, my big shift in life was from the 89 00:05:47,196 --> 00:05:51,156 Speaker 1: violin to cognitive science that I'm just remembering, like, oh wait, 90 00:05:51,196 --> 00:05:54,836 Speaker 1: I also had this other really big shift changes and 91 00:05:55,356 --> 00:05:58,836 Speaker 1: changing person to host. Um. I think this is true 92 00:05:58,876 --> 00:06:00,876 Speaker 1: across science too, But certainly when we were working in 93 00:06:00,876 --> 00:06:04,356 Speaker 1: the government, the stakes feel so high you just can't 94 00:06:04,356 --> 00:06:07,036 Speaker 1: screw up because these are real people's lives and they 95 00:06:07,036 --> 00:06:10,276 Speaker 1: can be affected by the work you're doing. And yeah, 96 00:06:10,276 --> 00:06:12,716 Speaker 1: it's so funny. Mean, we actually worked together on some projects. 97 00:06:13,116 --> 00:06:15,236 Speaker 1: Actually one of them used an insight from your book, 98 00:06:15,476 --> 00:06:17,956 Speaker 1: and it was the fresh Start Effect. And I'm curious 99 00:06:17,996 --> 00:06:20,396 Speaker 1: if you can share what the fresh Start effect is. 100 00:06:20,636 --> 00:06:23,196 Speaker 1: It was very exciting at the time to have hot 101 00:06:23,236 --> 00:06:26,316 Speaker 1: off the press's research coming out of your lad actually 102 00:06:26,316 --> 00:06:29,036 Speaker 1: applied to a problem that we were trying to solve 103 00:06:29,116 --> 00:06:32,076 Speaker 1: in the government. So my research group has studied this 104 00:06:32,396 --> 00:06:35,436 Speaker 1: phenomenon where at the beginning of sort of a new 105 00:06:35,516 --> 00:06:38,996 Speaker 1: chapter in your life, you are more motivated and likely 106 00:06:39,036 --> 00:06:42,236 Speaker 1: to make a change. And we've often studied small changes 107 00:06:42,276 --> 00:06:44,396 Speaker 1: in this context, like you go to the gym more, 108 00:06:44,596 --> 00:06:48,636 Speaker 1: or you search on Google for the term diet more frequently, 109 00:06:48,756 --> 00:06:50,356 Speaker 1: or you're more likely to set a goal on a 110 00:06:50,396 --> 00:06:54,476 Speaker 1: goal setting website. But I also think you know where 111 00:06:54,476 --> 00:06:58,276 Speaker 1: the interest in this topic came from was the realization 112 00:06:58,316 --> 00:07:01,356 Speaker 1: that a lot of people who do make big change 113 00:07:01,716 --> 00:07:06,596 Speaker 1: are looking at moments that feel like breaking points and 114 00:07:05,996 --> 00:07:08,876 Speaker 1: doing it. And so I tell stories about bigger changes 115 00:07:09,236 --> 00:07:14,076 Speaker 1: book moments when you leave college and you shift identity 116 00:07:14,316 --> 00:07:16,716 Speaker 1: is and take on a new role, or when you 117 00:07:16,716 --> 00:07:20,476 Speaker 1: become a parent. Those moments they feel like new beginnings 118 00:07:20,476 --> 00:07:23,116 Speaker 1: and chapter breaks in our lives, and I think they're 119 00:07:23,196 --> 00:07:26,316 Speaker 1: freeing in a way. They free us from the baggage 120 00:07:26,356 --> 00:07:29,036 Speaker 1: that we had before. But they can also be freeing 121 00:07:29,156 --> 00:07:32,876 Speaker 1: psychologically because we feel like you're a new person. You 122 00:07:32,876 --> 00:07:36,116 Speaker 1: can take on a new identity. Whatever wasn't working before, 123 00:07:37,036 --> 00:07:40,676 Speaker 1: whatever ambition you failed to have before you can shed 124 00:07:40,796 --> 00:07:43,156 Speaker 1: that and say okay, now I can do it. So anyway, 125 00:07:43,236 --> 00:07:44,796 Speaker 1: I do think we could study big change, and I 126 00:07:44,836 --> 00:07:47,556 Speaker 1: actually think some of the research we've done around small 127 00:07:47,636 --> 00:07:50,956 Speaker 1: change is inspired by a recognition that these might also 128 00:07:50,996 --> 00:07:54,916 Speaker 1: be the triggers for big change. Was there a particular 129 00:07:54,996 --> 00:07:58,796 Speaker 1: moment in your life where you felt the fresh start 130 00:07:58,796 --> 00:08:01,396 Speaker 1: effect play out, where it really felt like a new 131 00:08:01,396 --> 00:08:03,676 Speaker 1: beginning and there was a certain set of habits or 132 00:08:03,716 --> 00:08:07,036 Speaker 1: behavior changes that you witnessed. Oh my gosh, I mean 133 00:08:07,076 --> 00:08:11,156 Speaker 1: you know, I do mesearch so totally, meaning like a 134 00:08:11,156 --> 00:08:13,756 Speaker 1: lot of my research is motivated by like, oh wow, 135 00:08:13,796 --> 00:08:15,476 Speaker 1: that's weird. I wonder if other people, and then I 136 00:08:15,556 --> 00:08:18,036 Speaker 1: like asked my friends, oh yes, me too, and then 137 00:08:18,076 --> 00:08:20,716 Speaker 1: I realized, okay, like this might be this might be 138 00:08:20,876 --> 00:08:24,436 Speaker 1: something we're shutting. I will say one example that I 139 00:08:24,596 --> 00:08:27,996 Speaker 1: love is that I realized I wanted to write this 140 00:08:28,036 --> 00:08:32,676 Speaker 1: book for a long time. Finally what happened that triggered 141 00:08:32,676 --> 00:08:36,796 Speaker 1: it When I actually began. My son was three years old. 142 00:08:36,996 --> 00:08:38,436 Speaker 1: We decided we were going to move out of our 143 00:08:38,476 --> 00:08:41,116 Speaker 1: apartment into a house. We bought the house, we signed 144 00:08:41,116 --> 00:08:43,196 Speaker 1: the papers, and that day I said, you know what, 145 00:08:43,356 --> 00:08:46,636 Speaker 1: I'm ready, we're moving to a new house. It's a 146 00:08:46,636 --> 00:08:49,036 Speaker 1: fresh start. This is a moment and the project started 147 00:08:49,076 --> 00:08:51,596 Speaker 1: from there. So that was a big one for me. Interesting. 148 00:08:52,436 --> 00:08:54,676 Speaker 1: One of the anecdotes around the fresh start that I 149 00:08:54,676 --> 00:08:59,116 Speaker 1: love the most is Obama decided that he would stop 150 00:08:59,836 --> 00:09:04,156 Speaker 1: smoking for good when the Affordable Care Act passed, and 151 00:09:04,236 --> 00:09:06,956 Speaker 1: I was like, wait, a next level the fresh start effect, 152 00:09:07,036 --> 00:09:10,596 Speaker 1: Like he truly chose us in a lifetime experience to 153 00:09:10,636 --> 00:09:13,756 Speaker 1: anchor his commitment on. And it was like aligned on, 154 00:09:13,916 --> 00:09:16,756 Speaker 1: you know, it was aligned on like a health focus. Yes, 155 00:09:16,876 --> 00:09:20,156 Speaker 1: of course, of course Obama one ups all of us 156 00:09:20,236 --> 00:09:23,236 Speaker 1: and does the thing in the best way imaginable. Duh. 157 00:09:23,916 --> 00:09:26,316 Speaker 1: But I do love that, Like there's no other future, 158 00:09:26,356 --> 00:09:27,836 Speaker 1: one of those where he can be like, oh maybe 159 00:09:27,876 --> 00:09:29,596 Speaker 1: I can cave a little now because they'll be this 160 00:09:29,676 --> 00:09:33,076 Speaker 1: other right the other time I pass health Yeah, the 161 00:09:33,116 --> 00:09:36,236 Speaker 1: other time I pass healthcare as president. I love that, 162 00:09:36,276 --> 00:09:38,076 Speaker 1: and I don't I don't think I knew that. Actually, 163 00:09:38,156 --> 00:09:41,076 Speaker 1: that's amazing. Um, have you used the fresh start effect 164 00:09:41,076 --> 00:09:43,116 Speaker 1: maya or like in hindsight, have you ever noticed that 165 00:09:43,156 --> 00:09:46,676 Speaker 1: a fresh start shifted? I have something for you, I swear, 166 00:09:46,916 --> 00:09:50,556 Speaker 1: I swear to God every Sunday. I'm committing to eating healthily. 167 00:09:50,756 --> 00:09:54,156 Speaker 1: It's just that there's too many damn Sundays, and so 168 00:09:54,236 --> 00:09:56,676 Speaker 1: I always feel like I've gotten on to give it 169 00:09:56,716 --> 00:09:59,596 Speaker 1: a go. Yeah, but yeah, I mean, I think it's 170 00:09:59,636 --> 00:10:03,716 Speaker 1: it's hard for so many of us to keep our resolutions. 171 00:10:03,836 --> 00:10:06,756 Speaker 1: And in reading your book, it did make me think, Okay, 172 00:10:07,076 --> 00:10:13,676 Speaker 1: choose really markable milestones for pivoting, like big moves, like 173 00:10:13,716 --> 00:10:17,916 Speaker 1: when I moved from DC to California, getting married, big 174 00:10:17,956 --> 00:10:20,236 Speaker 1: events like that, because I do think you feel like 175 00:10:20,276 --> 00:10:23,476 Speaker 1: your identity is changing a bit, and any behaviors at 176 00:10:23,476 --> 00:10:26,236 Speaker 1: a company identity shifts might be more sticky, or at 177 00:10:26,276 --> 00:10:28,476 Speaker 1: least they have than in my experience. I think that's right. 178 00:10:28,516 --> 00:10:30,196 Speaker 1: And you get the benefit not only of the sort 179 00:10:30,196 --> 00:10:33,636 Speaker 1: of psychological break and the fresh start and opening a 180 00:10:33,636 --> 00:10:37,156 Speaker 1: new chapter, but you also have physical change, which is 181 00:10:37,156 --> 00:10:39,796 Speaker 1: so important to disrupting sort of bad habits or routines 182 00:10:39,876 --> 00:10:42,436 Speaker 1: and giving you that real blank slate to build upon 183 00:10:42,476 --> 00:10:43,836 Speaker 1: and say like, oh, I'm not going to go to 184 00:10:43,876 --> 00:10:46,756 Speaker 1: the burrito shop every day for lunch, or you know, 185 00:10:46,796 --> 00:10:48,596 Speaker 1: whatever your bad habit is that you want to kick 186 00:10:48,996 --> 00:10:52,356 Speaker 1: um exactly. Yeah, I think one of my favorite insights 187 00:10:52,356 --> 00:10:54,276 Speaker 1: from the book, and it's inside I've been using in 188 00:10:54,276 --> 00:10:57,036 Speaker 1: my own life since I read your research years ago. 189 00:10:57,556 --> 00:11:01,116 Speaker 1: Is around temptation bundling. Do you mind for sharing what 190 00:11:01,156 --> 00:11:02,556 Speaker 1: that is? And then I'd love to let you know 191 00:11:02,596 --> 00:11:05,716 Speaker 1: how I've been using it. Yeah, I want to hear 192 00:11:05,756 --> 00:11:08,876 Speaker 1: about your temptation funneling. Um that this is gonna be fun. 193 00:11:09,236 --> 00:11:12,396 Speaker 1: So temptation bundling is a solution I came up with 194 00:11:12,716 --> 00:11:15,956 Speaker 1: because I had two problems. Taking you back to grad 195 00:11:15,996 --> 00:11:19,076 Speaker 1: school again. I was taking all these hard engineering classes 196 00:11:19,076 --> 00:11:21,236 Speaker 1: and I was stressed out, and I'd come home after 197 00:11:21,276 --> 00:11:24,316 Speaker 1: a long day of classes, and all I wanted to 198 00:11:24,356 --> 00:11:27,476 Speaker 1: do was just like indulge in entertainment, right, like turn 199 00:11:27,556 --> 00:11:31,436 Speaker 1: on Netflix and binge watch TV, read tempting novels. So 200 00:11:31,476 --> 00:11:33,356 Speaker 1: I just wanted I wanted to dive into that and 201 00:11:33,476 --> 00:11:36,156 Speaker 1: escape my reality, and I didn't want to do my 202 00:11:36,156 --> 00:11:38,676 Speaker 1: problem sets. On the flip side, I also knew I 203 00:11:38,676 --> 00:11:42,996 Speaker 1: should really be getting exercise. I was an athlete in college, 204 00:11:43,516 --> 00:11:45,516 Speaker 1: but again when I came home from a long day, 205 00:11:45,596 --> 00:11:47,556 Speaker 1: I didn't want to put on sweats and go to 206 00:11:47,636 --> 00:11:50,236 Speaker 1: the gym. So these two problems, like I couldn't get 207 00:11:50,276 --> 00:11:52,956 Speaker 1: myself to do my homework because I was procrastinating, indulging 208 00:11:52,956 --> 00:11:55,796 Speaker 1: in all this entertainment, and I couldn't get myself to exercise. 209 00:11:55,836 --> 00:11:58,076 Speaker 1: And all of a sudden, I realized, like, wait a minute, 210 00:11:58,356 --> 00:12:00,476 Speaker 1: what if I solved them all at once? What if 211 00:12:00,516 --> 00:12:04,236 Speaker 1: I only let myself enjoy this entertainment that I love 212 00:12:04,276 --> 00:12:07,436 Speaker 1: so much while I'm exercising, I'd start craving trips to 213 00:12:07,476 --> 00:12:09,516 Speaker 1: the gym to find out what happens next in my 214 00:12:09,596 --> 00:12:12,796 Speaker 1: latest page turner, and I would stop wasting time at 215 00:12:12,796 --> 00:12:15,636 Speaker 1: home on this sort of literary garbage that normally captures 216 00:12:15,676 --> 00:12:17,796 Speaker 1: my attention, and I just focus on my problem sets. 217 00:12:17,876 --> 00:12:20,316 Speaker 1: And I started doing it. Was just like magic. I 218 00:12:20,436 --> 00:12:22,916 Speaker 1: worked out every day. Time flew while I was at 219 00:12:22,916 --> 00:12:25,076 Speaker 1: the gym because I was engrossed in Harry Potter or 220 00:12:25,116 --> 00:12:27,476 Speaker 1: Alex Cross. And when I got home, I was ready 221 00:12:27,516 --> 00:12:29,316 Speaker 1: to work because I'd already had my indulgence and I 222 00:12:29,476 --> 00:12:32,036 Speaker 1: wasn't as stressed out. And I also realized like I 223 00:12:32,076 --> 00:12:34,796 Speaker 1: could use them not only to help me exercise, but 224 00:12:34,876 --> 00:12:37,036 Speaker 1: in lots of places, like if you just tie something 225 00:12:37,116 --> 00:12:40,236 Speaker 1: tempting to a chore, you can magically turn it into 226 00:12:40,316 --> 00:12:42,476 Speaker 1: something you look forward to and do less of that 227 00:12:42,756 --> 00:12:45,836 Speaker 1: indulgent thing and feel less guilty about it, Like you know, 228 00:12:45,916 --> 00:12:48,156 Speaker 1: if only you get a glass of wine while you're 229 00:12:48,196 --> 00:12:50,076 Speaker 1: making a home cooked meal, or listen to your favorite 230 00:12:50,116 --> 00:12:53,196 Speaker 1: podcast while you're doing chores. For all your listeners who 231 00:12:53,236 --> 00:12:55,756 Speaker 1: are doing laundry right now, Katie and I are carrying 232 00:12:55,836 --> 00:12:59,476 Speaker 1: you on. Go for it. Yes, your temptation bundling. You 233 00:12:59,516 --> 00:13:03,116 Speaker 1: didn't know there was a name for it, Yes, exactly. Okay, 234 00:13:03,156 --> 00:13:05,756 Speaker 1: So I one of my favorite things in life is 235 00:13:05,836 --> 00:13:09,996 Speaker 1: discovering a new pop song that I love. And what 236 00:13:10,156 --> 00:13:13,356 Speaker 1: makes me really sad is that I very quickly, like 237 00:13:13,436 --> 00:13:16,196 Speaker 1: it loses the spark after a certain number of listens, 238 00:13:16,356 --> 00:13:19,756 Speaker 1: Like you just know, you only have fifteen amazing listens 239 00:13:19,796 --> 00:13:22,036 Speaker 1: with the song and before before it kind of becomes 240 00:13:22,116 --> 00:13:24,716 Speaker 1: old hat. Right, So, as soon as I discover an 241 00:13:24,716 --> 00:13:28,436 Speaker 1: amazing song, I will only allow myself to listen to 242 00:13:28,556 --> 00:13:31,196 Speaker 1: it while I'm working out from that point on, And like, 243 00:13:31,276 --> 00:13:33,556 Speaker 1: I'm a really non fun wife because my husband sometimes 244 00:13:33,596 --> 00:13:35,636 Speaker 1: and I will discover the song together and we'll be 245 00:13:35,716 --> 00:13:38,156 Speaker 1: cooking in the evening, We'll be having fun. He's like, Hey, 246 00:13:38,236 --> 00:13:41,156 Speaker 1: let's play that new album by Casey Musgraves, who's one 247 00:13:41,196 --> 00:13:43,596 Speaker 1: of my favorite artists, and I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, 248 00:13:43,716 --> 00:13:47,036 Speaker 1: you don't understand. That's only like a treadmill elliptical song 249 00:13:47,796 --> 00:13:49,796 Speaker 1: because I just feel like I have to protect it 250 00:13:49,836 --> 00:13:51,876 Speaker 1: and save it. But it certainly makes the work out 251 00:13:51,916 --> 00:13:55,116 Speaker 1: a lot more tolerable and a little bit more exciting. 252 00:13:55,316 --> 00:13:57,636 Speaker 1: So yes, I love pop music too, and I feel 253 00:13:57,636 --> 00:13:59,956 Speaker 1: like we should trade some song recommendations later so we 254 00:14:00,036 --> 00:14:06,196 Speaker 1: can each share. It's now very seriously tied to my exercise. 255 00:14:06,236 --> 00:14:09,316 Speaker 1: Between intact, the one thing that can happen is when 256 00:14:09,356 --> 00:14:13,236 Speaker 1: you temptation bundle. Sometimes what can happen is the intrinsic 257 00:14:13,316 --> 00:14:17,516 Speaker 1: extrinsic motivation balance gets thrown off kilter a bit. So 258 00:14:17,676 --> 00:14:20,676 Speaker 1: it's like, initially I'm just using all of my internal 259 00:14:20,756 --> 00:14:23,476 Speaker 1: will to go exercise, but now I've got this extrinsic motivator, 260 00:14:23,596 --> 00:14:25,916 Speaker 1: which is a song. So on the rare occasion where 261 00:14:25,956 --> 00:14:27,996 Speaker 1: like my headphones are out of battery, or like my 262 00:14:28,116 --> 00:14:30,876 Speaker 1: phone's Wi Fi is not working, I'm like, oh, I 263 00:14:30,996 --> 00:14:32,636 Speaker 1: don't know if I can do this anymore. Just have 264 00:14:32,716 --> 00:14:35,316 Speaker 1: to make sure your headphones are always working in your 265 00:14:36,356 --> 00:14:41,876 Speaker 1: your iPhone is always charged or whatever. Yes, I'm wondering 266 00:14:41,956 --> 00:14:44,356 Speaker 1: whether for temptation bundling. You see this plate on the 267 00:14:44,436 --> 00:14:49,476 Speaker 1: wild in places that were behavior change feels a little 268 00:14:49,516 --> 00:14:53,116 Speaker 1: bit more serious. That's interesting. I'm trying to think if 269 00:14:53,116 --> 00:14:56,876 Speaker 1: I have a great answer for you. There's a study 270 00:14:56,916 --> 00:14:59,516 Speaker 1: I love of teachers who are trying to figure out 271 00:14:59,516 --> 00:15:03,396 Speaker 1: how to motivate their students to do more math problems, 272 00:15:03,436 --> 00:15:06,476 Speaker 1: which kids apparently say they like doing math about as 273 00:15:06,556 --> 00:15:08,356 Speaker 1: much as they like eating broccoli. So that tells you 274 00:15:08,476 --> 00:15:11,596 Speaker 1: something about how delightful it is. And math is so 275 00:15:11,796 --> 00:15:17,556 Speaker 1: important to everything, as we both know. So these two 276 00:15:17,636 --> 00:15:22,716 Speaker 1: researchers suggested, basically a temptation bundle. What if the kids 277 00:15:22,876 --> 00:15:26,116 Speaker 1: could you listen to music, have snacks markers that they 278 00:15:26,236 --> 00:15:28,116 Speaker 1: like using, And they did that all on the day 279 00:15:28,116 --> 00:15:31,956 Speaker 1: when they're doing their math worksheets, but not at other times. 280 00:15:32,436 --> 00:15:35,276 Speaker 1: And the teachers were sort of skeptical. They were like, 281 00:15:35,756 --> 00:15:38,556 Speaker 1: I think they'll focus less could so I'll be distracted. 282 00:15:38,836 --> 00:15:41,516 Speaker 1: And it turned out that kids persisted longer on math 283 00:15:41,596 --> 00:15:44,756 Speaker 1: when they were randomly assigned to groups that had these 284 00:15:45,556 --> 00:15:48,396 Speaker 1: i'll say temptations linked with them. It's not you know, 285 00:15:48,436 --> 00:15:51,836 Speaker 1: it's not changing their lives in that day. It is cumulative. 286 00:15:51,916 --> 00:15:54,036 Speaker 1: But I think that that's an example of like some 287 00:15:54,236 --> 00:15:56,476 Speaker 1: of the big goals we have in life, whether it's 288 00:15:56,916 --> 00:16:00,236 Speaker 1: getting through your math assignments or finishing a dissertation, if 289 00:16:00,276 --> 00:16:01,956 Speaker 1: you can find a way to make it more enjoyable, 290 00:16:02,036 --> 00:16:05,316 Speaker 1: that really matters. I love the math example, I think 291 00:16:05,356 --> 00:16:07,636 Speaker 1: for two reasons. I mean, the first is I just 292 00:16:07,796 --> 00:16:11,956 Speaker 1: love any time research findings violate our expectations. You know, 293 00:16:11,996 --> 00:16:13,956 Speaker 1: when the teachers are like, oh, I'm not really sure 294 00:16:13,996 --> 00:16:16,236 Speaker 1: that this is a good idea, but then you're able 295 00:16:16,316 --> 00:16:19,876 Speaker 1: to generate empirical data that runs counter to that hypothesis. 296 00:16:20,236 --> 00:16:23,436 Speaker 1: That's wonderful because it's moving the field forward. And I 297 00:16:23,516 --> 00:16:26,156 Speaker 1: think the other reason I love it is that, you know, 298 00:16:26,316 --> 00:16:29,196 Speaker 1: success begets success, passion begets passion. It's kind of one 299 00:16:29,196 --> 00:16:31,716 Speaker 1: of those things where if you get a kid just 300 00:16:31,876 --> 00:16:34,516 Speaker 1: through that initial period and they're just learning the basics, 301 00:16:34,596 --> 00:16:38,476 Speaker 1: getting over those initial super hard humps, then they might 302 00:16:38,516 --> 00:16:40,996 Speaker 1: actually realize that they really like this thing and then 303 00:16:41,076 --> 00:16:43,596 Speaker 1: just becomes easier and easier and easier to do every 304 00:16:43,676 --> 00:16:47,156 Speaker 1: problem from that point forward. So I do feel like 305 00:16:47,276 --> 00:16:50,236 Speaker 1: you can have massive long term effects. I'm with you. 306 00:16:50,316 --> 00:16:52,636 Speaker 1: And if they have positive associations with math, I mean 307 00:16:52,876 --> 00:16:59,516 Speaker 1: what more could we hope for. We'll be right back 308 00:16:59,596 --> 00:17:13,676 Speaker 1: with a slight change of plans. In this episode, doctor 309 00:17:13,756 --> 00:17:16,196 Speaker 1: Katie Melfin and I are talking about the science of 310 00:17:16,316 --> 00:17:18,796 Speaker 1: change and the different techniques we can use to spur 311 00:17:18,956 --> 00:17:22,396 Speaker 1: on that change. One technique is called a commitment device, 312 00:17:22,756 --> 00:17:24,996 Speaker 1: which locks you into a plan to reach your long 313 00:17:25,116 --> 00:17:28,316 Speaker 1: term goals. The key feature of a conmitment device is 314 00:17:28,356 --> 00:17:30,916 Speaker 1: that if you don't follow through with your plan, there's 315 00:17:30,956 --> 00:17:34,636 Speaker 1: some sort of penalty in place. I remember, I'm curious 316 00:17:34,676 --> 00:17:37,316 Speaker 1: if you actually remember the experience of first learning about them, 317 00:17:37,356 --> 00:17:40,276 Speaker 1: because for me, it was like mind blowing how powerful 318 00:17:40,356 --> 00:17:43,316 Speaker 1: they were, and actually mind blowing how few people use 319 00:17:43,396 --> 00:17:45,556 Speaker 1: them given how powerful they are. But the study that 320 00:17:45,676 --> 00:17:49,156 Speaker 1: I love that really I think illustrates nicely how much 321 00:17:49,236 --> 00:17:52,196 Speaker 1: they can help us is a study where they partnered 322 00:17:52,236 --> 00:17:54,916 Speaker 1: with a bank in the Philippines that saw low savings 323 00:17:55,036 --> 00:17:56,476 Speaker 1: rates and wanted to figure out if there was a 324 00:17:56,516 --> 00:17:58,716 Speaker 1: way to help people save more so they'd have the 325 00:17:58,756 --> 00:18:02,956 Speaker 1: ability to have better health have better life outcomes. Where 326 00:18:03,076 --> 00:18:05,156 Speaker 1: they came up with this idea that one of the 327 00:18:05,276 --> 00:18:08,196 Speaker 1: reasons people were having trouble accumulating savings balances is they 328 00:18:08,236 --> 00:18:10,676 Speaker 1: were constantly tempted to dip in. They were like, they 329 00:18:10,716 --> 00:18:13,036 Speaker 1: opened the bank account and then they put some money aside, 330 00:18:13,076 --> 00:18:15,796 Speaker 1: but then somebody's birthday or there's a holiday, and then 331 00:18:15,876 --> 00:18:18,916 Speaker 1: so the money came right back out and it never accumulated. 332 00:18:18,996 --> 00:18:20,756 Speaker 1: And that people said, you know, actually, I'd kind of 333 00:18:20,836 --> 00:18:22,916 Speaker 1: like it if I couldn't get them money out. I 334 00:18:23,236 --> 00:18:26,236 Speaker 1: kind of wish I couldn't act on those impulses. So 335 00:18:26,356 --> 00:18:28,316 Speaker 1: they developed this new kind of account. It was a 336 00:18:28,356 --> 00:18:31,316 Speaker 1: commitment savings account. So you put money in and you 337 00:18:31,476 --> 00:18:33,796 Speaker 1: are not allowed to take it out until a predetermined 338 00:18:33,876 --> 00:18:37,036 Speaker 1: date you choose, or a savings goal you choose. They 339 00:18:37,116 --> 00:18:40,236 Speaker 1: offered this kind of account to you know, a random 340 00:18:40,276 --> 00:18:42,996 Speaker 1: subset of customers alongside the usual account with the same 341 00:18:43,076 --> 00:18:47,196 Speaker 1: interest rate, but free in and out access. They saved 342 00:18:47,356 --> 00:18:51,476 Speaker 1: eighty percent more year over year than the control I 343 00:18:51,556 --> 00:18:55,676 Speaker 1: mean eighty percent more savings. Right, you've studied savings like that. 344 00:18:55,876 --> 00:18:59,476 Speaker 1: That's life changing. So I love that story. That's a 345 00:18:59,596 --> 00:19:02,316 Speaker 1: hard commitment because when you put your money in, there 346 00:19:02,436 --> 00:19:05,196 Speaker 1: is another you know, there's a third party the bank 347 00:19:05,356 --> 00:19:08,116 Speaker 1: that is saying like you cannot have it. It is 348 00:19:08,196 --> 00:19:10,676 Speaker 1: not accessible to you. I'm preventing I'm preventing you from 349 00:19:10,796 --> 00:19:12,996 Speaker 1: So there's like a hard restriction on access to something, 350 00:19:13,116 --> 00:19:15,436 Speaker 1: and a commitment device is something you voluntarily opt into 351 00:19:15,716 --> 00:19:18,756 Speaker 1: that restricts you or penalizes you in some way if 352 00:19:18,756 --> 00:19:20,716 Speaker 1: you don't achieve your goals or pursue your goals in 353 00:19:20,756 --> 00:19:22,556 Speaker 1: the way you intend to. So that's a hard one 354 00:19:22,636 --> 00:19:26,236 Speaker 1: because there's no fudging it. There's soft commitments in the 355 00:19:26,276 --> 00:19:30,276 Speaker 1: world too, Like you know, you tell your partner or 356 00:19:30,436 --> 00:19:32,676 Speaker 1: your mom you're going to do something, and then they 357 00:19:33,196 --> 00:19:35,836 Speaker 1: ask them to give you a hard time if you don't. 358 00:19:36,116 --> 00:19:38,196 Speaker 1: That's like a weak commitment device. You're gonna get a 359 00:19:38,236 --> 00:19:41,596 Speaker 1: little You're gonna get ribbed a little bit. You're accountable 360 00:19:41,636 --> 00:19:44,236 Speaker 1: to someone, but you can back out. Yeah. I also 361 00:19:44,276 --> 00:19:47,996 Speaker 1: remember learning about commitment devices for the first time. Gosh, 362 00:19:48,076 --> 00:19:50,876 Speaker 1: we sound like such nerds are for years, Katie. Do 363 00:19:50,876 --> 00:19:53,316 Speaker 1: you remember where you were remember the day you learned 364 00:19:53,356 --> 00:19:56,796 Speaker 1: about commitment devices? I mean remember exactly where I was. 365 00:19:57,116 --> 00:19:59,276 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm like, yeah, I was in a class room. 366 00:19:59,476 --> 00:20:04,676 Speaker 1: My head exploded. Where were you? I was in my 367 00:20:04,796 --> 00:20:06,476 Speaker 1: kitchen with my roommates, and I was reading this paper 368 00:20:06,516 --> 00:20:08,156 Speaker 1: and I was like, oh, this is so exciting. The 369 00:20:08,236 --> 00:20:11,956 Speaker 1: researchers ran a study in which they had people outline where, when, 370 00:20:11,996 --> 00:20:14,436 Speaker 1: and how they were planning to get vaccinated. So that 371 00:20:14,596 --> 00:20:16,796 Speaker 1: was my study. Oh my gosh, this is so fun. 372 00:20:16,876 --> 00:20:19,036 Speaker 1: The flu shot study I'm talking about is your study. 373 00:20:19,076 --> 00:20:23,316 Speaker 1: See that's awesome. Okay, well the seminal work by doctor Milkman. 374 00:20:24,716 --> 00:20:27,196 Speaker 1: So in your study you ask people where, when, and 375 00:20:27,276 --> 00:20:29,276 Speaker 1: how you're going to go get vaccinated, right, And I 376 00:20:29,356 --> 00:20:31,316 Speaker 1: think what was so studying to me is like, so 377 00:20:31,356 --> 00:20:33,156 Speaker 1: you write down this forum. You know, I maya nine 378 00:20:33,196 --> 00:20:35,916 Speaker 1: am after I drop off my husband at work and 379 00:20:36,036 --> 00:20:38,076 Speaker 1: I go pick up my groceries, I'm going to go 380 00:20:38,196 --> 00:20:40,636 Speaker 1: to the CBS can get my flu vaccine. And what 381 00:20:40,836 --> 00:20:44,196 Speaker 1: was astonishing to me is that it significantly increased the 382 00:20:44,476 --> 00:20:48,516 Speaker 1: vaccination rate despite the fact that you weren't accountable to anyone, 383 00:20:48,836 --> 00:20:51,916 Speaker 1: right in this intervention. You were not required to send 384 00:20:51,956 --> 00:20:54,596 Speaker 1: the letter back to anyone, no one was on your case. 385 00:20:55,076 --> 00:20:57,836 Speaker 1: You were literally just planning it out for yourself. And 386 00:20:57,956 --> 00:21:01,436 Speaker 1: that was enough to significantly drive the numbers up, which 387 00:21:01,476 --> 00:21:05,156 Speaker 1: to me again was such an extraordinary, lightlift, low cost 388 00:21:05,276 --> 00:21:08,716 Speaker 1: intervention that could potentially save people's lives. And in your 389 00:21:08,756 --> 00:21:11,756 Speaker 1: book talk about the fact that we all have a 390 00:21:11,836 --> 00:21:14,796 Speaker 1: fairly Maybe not everyone, but many people have a very 391 00:21:14,876 --> 00:21:19,316 Speaker 1: high view of themselves, so they feel like they might 392 00:21:19,436 --> 00:21:23,396 Speaker 1: not benefit that much from commitment devices. And you know, 393 00:21:23,436 --> 00:21:26,796 Speaker 1: we can be very over optimistic about our ability to 394 00:21:26,916 --> 00:21:30,076 Speaker 1: use willpower to avoid temptation. And I'm wondering if you 395 00:21:30,156 --> 00:21:33,196 Speaker 1: have any thoughts or advice for helping people overcome this 396 00:21:33,396 --> 00:21:37,836 Speaker 1: overconfidence so that they can achieve their goals. Yeah, it's funny. 397 00:21:37,956 --> 00:21:41,476 Speaker 1: Optimism is a really good thing, but in this particular case, 398 00:21:41,636 --> 00:21:45,156 Speaker 1: it plays tricks on us that are problematic because we 399 00:21:45,356 --> 00:21:49,556 Speaker 1: don't in general persevere as much as we think we will, 400 00:21:49,916 --> 00:21:53,116 Speaker 1: and we do tend to be present biased, right, so 401 00:21:53,276 --> 00:21:59,196 Speaker 1: we dramatically overweight whatever value will get from something instantaneously 402 00:21:59,556 --> 00:22:01,876 Speaker 1: rather than the long term value. So you know, I 403 00:22:01,996 --> 00:22:04,956 Speaker 1: can buy a present right now for myself, or I 404 00:22:04,996 --> 00:22:07,316 Speaker 1: can put money in savings. I'll take the present, even 405 00:22:07,356 --> 00:22:08,796 Speaker 1: if that's not really good for me in the long run. 406 00:22:08,956 --> 00:22:12,556 Speaker 1: And if we don't appreciate that, this disconnect keeps happening, 407 00:22:12,756 --> 00:22:14,916 Speaker 1: and we think we'll just barrel through and do what's 408 00:22:14,956 --> 00:22:17,756 Speaker 1: in our long term best interests, we don't choose to 409 00:22:17,996 --> 00:22:21,396 Speaker 1: use commitment devices because we don't recognize this challenge, so 410 00:22:21,916 --> 00:22:24,276 Speaker 1: I think it's a really tough nut to crack. And 411 00:22:24,436 --> 00:22:27,036 Speaker 1: for me, the big thing was sort of seeing the 412 00:22:27,156 --> 00:22:30,676 Speaker 1: data and seeing, here's the evidence. If you see it 413 00:22:30,996 --> 00:22:32,916 Speaker 1: with your own eyes and you see how powerful these 414 00:22:32,996 --> 00:22:35,236 Speaker 1: tools are and how often we do stumble even though 415 00:22:35,236 --> 00:22:37,316 Speaker 1: we think we'll be able to push through. Maybe that 416 00:22:37,396 --> 00:22:40,556 Speaker 1: evidence will be enough to get people to recognize this 417 00:22:40,716 --> 00:22:44,516 Speaker 1: can be a really potent approach. You have lots of 418 00:22:44,596 --> 00:22:48,916 Speaker 1: colorful anecdotes sprinkled throughout of real people who are facing 419 00:22:48,996 --> 00:22:52,116 Speaker 1: these challenges and using these behavioral tricks of the trade. 420 00:22:52,476 --> 00:22:54,596 Speaker 1: And I do feel like in many ways you're wielding 421 00:22:54,636 --> 00:22:57,316 Speaker 1: the power of social norms by saying, hey, at least 422 00:22:57,356 --> 00:23:00,036 Speaker 1: here's a collection of people who are willing to acknowledge 423 00:23:00,156 --> 00:23:04,036 Speaker 1: that they maybe a bit overconfident about their ability to use, 424 00:23:04,116 --> 00:23:07,236 Speaker 1: for example, willpower to achieve their goals, and they're open 425 00:23:07,316 --> 00:23:10,436 Speaker 1: to using some of these strategies. So maybe either could 426 00:23:10,436 --> 00:23:13,276 Speaker 1: be a positive norm effect that comes from people reading 427 00:23:13,276 --> 00:23:15,676 Speaker 1: your book Fingers crossed. I love that. I like that 428 00:23:15,956 --> 00:23:19,676 Speaker 1: the modeling, and you know, anytime I can use insights 429 00:23:19,676 --> 00:23:22,196 Speaker 1: about social norms to make the world a better place, 430 00:23:22,876 --> 00:23:27,076 Speaker 1: I'm it's a win. What do you see in the 431 00:23:27,236 --> 00:23:32,716 Speaker 1: future of change research in your ideal feature? When I 432 00:23:32,836 --> 00:23:36,036 Speaker 1: think about what I'm most intrigued by and feel like 433 00:23:36,156 --> 00:23:39,196 Speaker 1: we've only scratched the surface of in studying change, there's 434 00:23:39,236 --> 00:23:44,556 Speaker 1: two big things. One is durability. What are the kinds 435 00:23:44,636 --> 00:23:49,236 Speaker 1: of tools that really propel change in an incredibly durable way? 436 00:23:49,316 --> 00:23:51,956 Speaker 1: You know? I think a key takeaway for me has been, like, 437 00:23:52,076 --> 00:23:54,596 Speaker 1: never stopped doing the thing that's working right. Don't like 438 00:23:54,676 --> 00:23:56,836 Speaker 1: assume you can temptation bundle for a month, then you've 439 00:23:56,836 --> 00:23:59,476 Speaker 1: built an exercise habit and magically, maya you will never 440 00:23:59,556 --> 00:24:01,276 Speaker 1: need to listen to a pop song again, and you'll 441 00:24:01,276 --> 00:24:02,916 Speaker 1: always want to go to the gym. So you got 442 00:24:03,036 --> 00:24:05,756 Speaker 1: to keep doing that. So we know that. But are 443 00:24:05,796 --> 00:24:08,676 Speaker 1: there any magical things that where if you sort of 444 00:24:09,156 --> 00:24:10,836 Speaker 1: can put them on autopilot or do them for a 445 00:24:10,836 --> 00:24:13,436 Speaker 1: little while and they propel you for it? I wonder 446 00:24:13,596 --> 00:24:16,596 Speaker 1: I would love to uncover some if they exist. And 447 00:24:16,716 --> 00:24:22,716 Speaker 1: then the other thing I'm really intrigued by is setbacks 448 00:24:23,116 --> 00:24:25,956 Speaker 1: and how to sort of how to prepare for them 449 00:24:26,076 --> 00:24:28,516 Speaker 1: and recover from them as effectively as possible. I think 450 00:24:28,556 --> 00:24:31,796 Speaker 1: some of the most interesting ideas I have encountered around 451 00:24:31,956 --> 00:24:37,276 Speaker 1: change work because they have they help us with those setbacks. 452 00:24:37,316 --> 00:24:39,316 Speaker 1: I think fresh starts sort of help us with the setbacks. 453 00:24:39,356 --> 00:24:41,916 Speaker 1: They're like, Okay, wipe the slate clean. You're I get 454 00:24:41,956 --> 00:24:44,756 Speaker 1: to get up and go again. There's wonderful work by 455 00:24:44,836 --> 00:24:49,036 Speaker 1: my colleague Mersas Sharif on emergency reserves where she's figured 456 00:24:49,036 --> 00:24:51,156 Speaker 1: out these clever ways that you set a tough goal 457 00:24:51,236 --> 00:24:53,236 Speaker 1: but give yourself a couple get out of jail free 458 00:24:53,316 --> 00:24:55,596 Speaker 1: cards if you can't achieve it every day of the week, 459 00:24:55,956 --> 00:24:58,756 Speaker 1: and found that that's way better than giving yourself sort 460 00:24:58,796 --> 00:25:01,716 Speaker 1: of like a slightly easier goal because you're you're going 461 00:25:01,756 --> 00:25:04,036 Speaker 1: for the stretch, but you're giving yourself a little leeway. 462 00:25:04,796 --> 00:25:06,996 Speaker 1: I think that also is like about getting back up. 463 00:25:07,156 --> 00:25:10,396 Speaker 1: So I think there's some really fun, fundamental, interesting things 464 00:25:10,476 --> 00:25:16,596 Speaker 1: to be explored around creating structures for success after a setback, 465 00:25:16,756 --> 00:25:20,436 Speaker 1: and I look forward to studying that too, Katie. One 466 00:25:20,476 --> 00:25:23,716 Speaker 1: of the things that I feel most intimidated by is 467 00:25:23,756 --> 00:25:26,836 Speaker 1: this challenge of how it is we can change people's minds. 468 00:25:27,396 --> 00:25:31,196 Speaker 1: It feels like one of those really elusive things, and 469 00:25:32,196 --> 00:25:35,036 Speaker 1: there's no one size fits all approach and I'm just 470 00:25:35,116 --> 00:25:37,676 Speaker 1: wondering if you have any thoughts on the most effective 471 00:25:37,676 --> 00:25:40,916 Speaker 1: strategies you've seen, either in research or just in your 472 00:25:40,956 --> 00:25:44,716 Speaker 1: personal life around how to change people's minds. Yeah, it's 473 00:25:44,756 --> 00:25:50,076 Speaker 1: such an interesting question. It's obviously really hard, just like 474 00:25:50,156 --> 00:25:53,236 Speaker 1: behavior change is hard, changing opinions is really hard. I think. 475 00:25:53,636 --> 00:25:57,716 Speaker 1: Actually there are some common themes though, and one common 476 00:25:57,796 --> 00:26:04,036 Speaker 1: theme is exploration. So when we talked about the fresh 477 00:26:04,076 --> 00:26:07,316 Speaker 1: start effect and how these disruptions in our lives can 478 00:26:07,436 --> 00:26:09,916 Speaker 1: lead us to sort of be in a new environment 479 00:26:10,076 --> 00:26:13,156 Speaker 1: and you can therefore explore and you don't have old 480 00:26:13,316 --> 00:26:16,396 Speaker 1: bad habits necessarily already built to fall back on, there's 481 00:26:16,396 --> 00:26:19,436 Speaker 1: also an opportunity to do that in terms of mindset shift. 482 00:26:19,556 --> 00:26:22,356 Speaker 1: So I think when we have a set of beliefs 483 00:26:22,636 --> 00:26:26,916 Speaker 1: and expectations, were less likely to explore and read and 484 00:26:27,156 --> 00:26:32,316 Speaker 1: talk to people outside of our perspective. But if we can, 485 00:26:32,516 --> 00:26:35,836 Speaker 1: if there's a moment that creates or forces some experimentation 486 00:26:36,676 --> 00:26:40,956 Speaker 1: and exploration, that can be incredibly powerful. Yeah. I like 487 00:26:41,116 --> 00:26:43,036 Speaker 1: that too, because it's not so pointed, right, It's not 488 00:26:43,116 --> 00:26:45,476 Speaker 1: like I need you to change your opinion about this thing. 489 00:26:46,036 --> 00:26:48,756 Speaker 1: It's let me just try to get you to expose 490 00:26:48,836 --> 00:26:51,876 Speaker 1: yourself to stuff. Period. I'm wondering if you have any 491 00:26:51,916 --> 00:26:55,316 Speaker 1: concrete ideas on how we can motivate people to engage 492 00:26:55,356 --> 00:26:59,836 Speaker 1: in that exploration, because exploration is very uncomfortable, right, Like, 493 00:26:59,956 --> 00:27:04,676 Speaker 1: we all have deeply entrenched views within us. Purposely going 494 00:27:04,716 --> 00:27:07,756 Speaker 1: on a mission to challenge those views is not exactly 495 00:27:07,796 --> 00:27:11,156 Speaker 1: the most fun adventure. It's just it's filled with cognitive dissonance. 496 00:27:11,276 --> 00:27:15,156 Speaker 1: It just feels uncomfortable. And so how do we incentivize 497 00:27:15,236 --> 00:27:18,796 Speaker 1: people to go on those little missions? You know? I 498 00:27:19,116 --> 00:27:21,796 Speaker 1: have to think that a big part of it is 499 00:27:21,916 --> 00:27:27,276 Speaker 1: probably through social norms, which is such a powerful tool. 500 00:27:27,316 --> 00:27:29,276 Speaker 1: For instance, if you end up with a roommate who's 501 00:27:29,516 --> 00:27:32,476 Speaker 1: a good student, your grades are likely to be a 502 00:27:32,516 --> 00:27:37,356 Speaker 1: bit higher. So you know, if we point out others 503 00:27:37,436 --> 00:27:40,116 Speaker 1: like you who have changed their mind, it gives you 504 00:27:40,556 --> 00:27:43,276 Speaker 1: license to say, like, oh, maybe, like it's reasonable for 505 00:27:43,356 --> 00:27:46,196 Speaker 1: someone like meeting to keep exploring and keep thinking about 506 00:27:46,236 --> 00:27:49,116 Speaker 1: different ideas. I think that might be a way that 507 00:27:49,676 --> 00:27:53,476 Speaker 1: we can introduce this exploration concept and not have it 508 00:27:53,596 --> 00:27:55,996 Speaker 1: be too threatening and have it be appealing. I think 509 00:27:55,996 --> 00:27:57,996 Speaker 1: that's exactly right. I mean, it's reminding me there's this 510 00:27:58,076 --> 00:28:00,796 Speaker 1: one interview I did with a woman named Megan Phelps Roper, 511 00:28:01,236 --> 00:28:03,916 Speaker 1: and she ends up leaving this hate group cult church, 512 00:28:04,596 --> 00:28:07,556 Speaker 1: and I was asking her, are you using your platform 513 00:28:07,636 --> 00:28:10,116 Speaker 1: today to convince other people? Because there's so much research 514 00:28:10,676 --> 00:28:14,116 Speaker 1: showing the power of a convert. So when you hold 515 00:28:14,236 --> 00:28:17,876 Speaker 1: the views that this person in front of you previously held, 516 00:28:17,956 --> 00:28:20,916 Speaker 1: and then you watch them walk you through their journey 517 00:28:21,036 --> 00:28:23,636 Speaker 1: of changing their minds, it can open your mind in 518 00:28:23,716 --> 00:28:25,796 Speaker 1: a really unique way because you feel attached to their 519 00:28:25,836 --> 00:28:27,796 Speaker 1: former value system. Right. You know that you started in 520 00:28:27,836 --> 00:28:30,396 Speaker 1: the same place, but they ended up in a different place. 521 00:28:30,716 --> 00:28:33,516 Speaker 1: I know the Department of Homeland Security uses this inside 522 00:28:33,556 --> 00:28:37,396 Speaker 1: all the time by recruiting former extremists to try to 523 00:28:37,476 --> 00:28:40,796 Speaker 1: convert the potential extremists away from that craft. It's so 524 00:28:40,916 --> 00:28:43,516 Speaker 1: interesting too, because I'm thinking about like the original, like 525 00:28:43,676 --> 00:28:47,516 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty five Solomon ash experiments where he'd bring all 526 00:28:47,516 --> 00:28:50,476 Speaker 1: these people into a room and he'd show them two cards. 527 00:28:50,556 --> 00:28:52,316 Speaker 1: One had one line on it and one had three 528 00:28:52,356 --> 00:28:53,716 Speaker 1: and you had to figure out which of those three 529 00:28:53,796 --> 00:28:55,756 Speaker 1: lines was the same length as the one line. And 530 00:28:55,836 --> 00:28:57,836 Speaker 1: it seems like it was really simple task and it 531 00:28:57,996 --> 00:29:01,316 Speaker 1: was fairly straightforward. People didn't get it wrong except when 532 00:29:01,356 --> 00:29:04,756 Speaker 1: he introduced social pressure. So he'd bring a group in 533 00:29:05,156 --> 00:29:07,836 Speaker 1: and have seven of them consistently give those same wrong 534 00:29:07,876 --> 00:29:11,716 Speaker 1: answer before you give your answer, and people started messing 535 00:29:11,796 --> 00:29:14,596 Speaker 1: up and they're like totally confused, But was really interesting. 536 00:29:14,676 --> 00:29:17,236 Speaker 1: You know. That's the famous finding. When everybody else says 537 00:29:17,276 --> 00:29:19,356 Speaker 1: the wrong answer, you go along with it a lot, 538 00:29:19,716 --> 00:29:22,516 Speaker 1: and you actually believe that you must be seeing things. 539 00:29:23,436 --> 00:29:26,436 Speaker 1: One of my favorite subfindings that I think gets less 540 00:29:26,516 --> 00:29:29,116 Speaker 1: play is that if there's just one truthful person in 541 00:29:29,196 --> 00:29:31,956 Speaker 1: that set, so six people out of the seven say 542 00:29:31,996 --> 00:29:34,916 Speaker 1: the wrong answer, but one says the right answer, you're 543 00:29:35,036 --> 00:29:39,596 Speaker 1: much more likely to follow your intuition and say what 544 00:29:39,756 --> 00:29:42,396 Speaker 1: you really think is right. So anyway, I think that 545 00:29:42,516 --> 00:29:45,156 Speaker 1: that's interesting in relation to this sort of power of 546 00:29:45,476 --> 00:29:48,676 Speaker 1: the one person who broke free. Just seeing one person 547 00:29:48,836 --> 00:29:52,676 Speaker 1: who agrees with your shows you a slightly different worldview, 548 00:29:52,756 --> 00:29:56,276 Speaker 1: can make it possible for you to feel comfortable going 549 00:29:56,316 --> 00:29:59,916 Speaker 1: against the grain. Yeah, I love that, So I really 550 00:29:59,916 --> 00:30:02,916 Speaker 1: want to get your thoughts on this. We are living 551 00:30:02,956 --> 00:30:06,156 Speaker 1: in a world right now where we're almost in like 552 00:30:06,236 --> 00:30:09,716 Speaker 1: this self help moment right where everybody's trying to optimize 553 00:30:10,756 --> 00:30:13,196 Speaker 1: their lives, and I do wonder where the limits are 554 00:30:13,436 --> 00:30:16,156 Speaker 1: of that, And at one point you have to say, 555 00:30:16,516 --> 00:30:19,076 Speaker 1: you know what, like I just can't spend my whole 556 00:30:19,156 --> 00:30:21,436 Speaker 1: life trying to optimize. I just need to kind of 557 00:30:21,556 --> 00:30:24,036 Speaker 1: be and live and exist. And the reason I asked 558 00:30:24,036 --> 00:30:27,716 Speaker 1: that is it's alarming to me. I'll hear certain people say, oh, yeah, no, 559 00:30:27,796 --> 00:30:31,156 Speaker 1: it's super important to be bored because actually boredom makes 560 00:30:31,156 --> 00:30:33,636 Speaker 1: you more productive, So like even boredom is now an 561 00:30:33,676 --> 00:30:36,836 Speaker 1: instrumental thing or becoming more productive, Like oh yeah, make 562 00:30:36,836 --> 00:30:38,876 Speaker 1: sure you stare out the window for at least five 563 00:30:38,956 --> 00:30:41,116 Speaker 1: minutes a day, because that'll help you be more productive. 564 00:30:41,636 --> 00:30:45,276 Speaker 1: I feel like sometimes we don't just do things because 565 00:30:45,316 --> 00:30:48,476 Speaker 1: we've we just value those things. We always do things 566 00:30:48,556 --> 00:30:52,036 Speaker 1: because they have some instrumental value in terms of achieving 567 00:30:52,116 --> 00:30:55,556 Speaker 1: something else. And that's also super interesting, maya, because those 568 00:30:55,556 --> 00:30:57,876 Speaker 1: are like little hacks, right, like, oh, you know, stare 569 00:30:57,916 --> 00:31:00,916 Speaker 1: out the window for five minutes, And if we like 570 00:31:00,996 --> 00:31:03,516 Speaker 1: fill our life with all those little hacks, we actually 571 00:31:03,556 --> 00:31:08,316 Speaker 1: don't make space for the big momentous change. That's so interesting. Yeah, 572 00:31:08,356 --> 00:31:10,156 Speaker 1: and you're saying that because it's like, oh, it's just 573 00:31:10,236 --> 00:31:13,436 Speaker 1: taking up all your brain airwaves that you're not Yeah, 574 00:31:13,476 --> 00:31:15,236 Speaker 1: you just don't have the time to think of macro. 575 00:31:15,516 --> 00:31:19,076 Speaker 1: It's a great point. I think I'll wrath by asking 576 00:31:19,156 --> 00:31:21,636 Speaker 1: what the biggest change you feel you've experienced in your 577 00:31:21,676 --> 00:31:26,836 Speaker 1: life is. Oh, my gosh, there's so many, which is 578 00:31:26,916 --> 00:31:33,196 Speaker 1: part of what makes life so fun. I think, honestly, 579 00:31:33,276 --> 00:31:36,916 Speaker 1: one of the biggest most important changes for me went 580 00:31:37,076 --> 00:31:41,356 Speaker 1: from being focused on figuring out how to do my 581 00:31:41,636 --> 00:31:47,076 Speaker 1: own work or live my own life to taking on 582 00:31:47,196 --> 00:31:50,876 Speaker 1: the role of coaching and helping other people. All of 583 00:31:50,996 --> 00:31:55,116 Speaker 1: those relationships sort of reinforce the same change, which is 584 00:31:55,676 --> 00:31:58,196 Speaker 1: how meaningful it is to be looking out for someone 585 00:31:58,276 --> 00:32:01,356 Speaker 1: else besides yourself, and how much you can learn about 586 00:32:01,796 --> 00:32:05,196 Speaker 1: everything when you are coaching and helping someone else. And 587 00:32:05,356 --> 00:32:09,676 Speaker 1: that helped me actually be better at everything. So I 588 00:32:09,676 --> 00:32:11,556 Speaker 1: would say that's the biggest shift I've had in my life, 589 00:32:11,556 --> 00:32:14,236 Speaker 1: and I hope everyone will get that opportunity to have 590 00:32:14,356 --> 00:32:17,556 Speaker 1: that kind of a shift. Wow, what a positive change, 591 00:32:17,676 --> 00:32:21,476 Speaker 1: What a positive feet to end on. I know how 592 00:32:21,556 --> 00:32:23,396 Speaker 1: busy you are, and I know how much you optimize 593 00:32:23,436 --> 00:32:25,436 Speaker 1: your life in order to make room for these kinds 594 00:32:25,476 --> 00:32:28,396 Speaker 1: of conversations. So thank you so much. It was really 595 00:32:28,476 --> 00:32:31,316 Speaker 1: fun to chat with you. This was so fun, Oh 596 00:32:31,396 --> 00:32:44,116 Speaker 1: my gosh. A Slight Change of Plans is created an 597 00:32:44,156 --> 00:32:47,916 Speaker 1: executive produce by me Maya Shanker. Big thanks to everyone 598 00:32:47,956 --> 00:32:52,956 Speaker 1: at Pushkin Industries, including our producer Mola Board, associate producers 599 00:32:53,076 --> 00:32:56,956 Speaker 1: David Ja and Julia Goodman, executive producers Mia Lavelle and 600 00:32:57,116 --> 00:33:01,316 Speaker 1: Justine Lang, senior editor Jen Guera, and sound design and 601 00:33:01,436 --> 00:33:05,876 Speaker 1: mixed engineers Ben Holliday and Jason Gambrel. Thanks also to 602 00:33:06,036 --> 00:33:08,756 Speaker 1: Louis Gara who wrote our theme song, and Ginger Smith 603 00:33:08,796 --> 00:33:13,556 Speaker 1: who arrange the vocals, incidental music from Epidemic Sound, and 604 00:33:13,716 --> 00:33:17,276 Speaker 1: of course a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You 605 00:33:17,356 --> 00:33:19,996 Speaker 1: can follow a Slight Change of Plans on Instagram at 606 00:33:20,076 --> 00:33:33,356 Speaker 1: doctor Maya Schunker anytime they violate our Sorry for a 607 00:33:33,396 --> 00:33:36,596 Speaker 1: frog in my throat. Actually I'm like, OK. Even though 608 00:33:36,596 --> 00:33:41,356 Speaker 1: I'm a vegetarian, I occasionally get a frog. You're not chewing, 609 00:33:41,676 --> 00:33:44,236 Speaker 1: so it's not chewing, fitting it right back out