WEBVTT - S4E8: Live at 92NY with Samantha Bee 0:00:01.000 --> 0:00:04.360 Hello, snaff universe. It is I Ed Helms, your ever 0:00:04.480 --> 0:00:09.000 dutiful captain, steering this ship straight into the iceberg of 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:14.240 history's biggest screw ups. And this week we're going live, baby, 0:00:14.520 --> 0:00:17.239 well sort of. I mean, you're not going to be 0:00:17.280 --> 0:00:19.799 listening to something that's happening live, but it is a 0:00:19.880 --> 0:00:22.799 recording of a thing that was live, you know what 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:23.239 I mean? 0:00:23.440 --> 0:00:23.800 All Right? 0:00:24.079 --> 0:00:26.920 So, during my book tour for Snafu, The Definitive Guide 0:00:26.920 --> 0:00:31.520 to History's Greatest screw Ups, I had the absolute pleasure 0:00:31.840 --> 0:00:35.320 of stopping by the legendary ninety second Street Why in 0:00:35.400 --> 0:00:38.199 New York City, where I got to sit down with 0:00:38.360 --> 0:00:41.720 a dear old friend who also happens to be an 0:00:41.760 --> 0:00:47.280 Emmy winning comedian, producer, writer, and professional destroyer of pomposity. 0:00:47.920 --> 0:00:52.120 I am talking about none other than the great Samantha B. 0:00:52.960 --> 0:00:56.120 Sam and I go all the way back to our 0:00:56.200 --> 0:00:59.240 daily show days, which feels like roughly four hundred years 0:00:59.240 --> 0:01:03.240 ago in time. So it was really a joy to 0:01:03.360 --> 0:01:06.600 just hang out and reminisce about the salad days and 0:01:06.680 --> 0:01:09.560 also dig into some juicy stuff, you know, like the 0:01:09.640 --> 0:01:12.360 decades of epics screw ups I write about in the book, 0:01:12.800 --> 0:01:17.320 How the book actually came together, and even some reflections 0:01:17.360 --> 0:01:20.160 on how the screw ups in the book might inform 0:01:20.240 --> 0:01:24.720 how we navigate the present moment. And doing all of 0:01:24.760 --> 0:01:27.040 this live on stage in front of a fired up 0:01:27.080 --> 0:01:29.959 New York crowd, it just gave the whole night a 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:33.440 kind of electric buzz and it was just an absolute treat. 0:01:33.600 --> 0:01:38.560 So stick around for my conversation with sam B. And Hey, 0:01:38.680 --> 0:01:41.000 if you're in the market for a gift that's equal 0:01:41.040 --> 0:01:45.720 parts history, lesson, comedy show and stocking stuffer, look no 0:01:45.920 --> 0:01:49.880 further than my book, Snafoo, The Definitive Guide to History's 0:01:50.080 --> 0:01:54.240 Greatest screw Ups. It's available at snafoo, dashbook dot com 0:01:54.400 --> 0:01:59.400 or wherever fine books are sold. The audiobook, narrated by 0:01:59.480 --> 0:02:03.880 Yours Truly is also out. Now think of that as 0:02:04.000 --> 0:02:06.520 kind of cozy little ear muffs for your brain, only 0:02:06.560 --> 0:02:10.600 instead of warmth, they're packed with shocking blunders and questionable 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:14.560 decision making. Okay, that's it now, please enjoy my chat 0:02:14.760 --> 0:02:16.679 with the brilliant Samantha B. 0:02:29.840 --> 0:02:31.359 All right, this is. 0:02:31.360 --> 0:02:33.960 So oh my god, this cheer is so comfortable. I 0:02:34.000 --> 0:02:36.480 had no idea the cheers would be so amazing. 0:02:37.800 --> 0:02:39.520 I mean, it's good because I just came from my 0:02:40.360 --> 0:02:41.440 YMCA workout. 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:45.760 That's right, I'm so sweaty. 0:02:46.280 --> 0:02:49.160 I'm so excited to be here with you. 0:02:49.240 --> 0:02:52.960 Because I miss you, although I haven't seen you in 0:02:53.000 --> 0:02:57.040 ages ed when you asked me to do this talk 0:02:57.080 --> 0:02:59.000 with you, I could not have been more excited. I 0:02:59.040 --> 0:03:02.120 love everything that you do. I love Snaffoo. I love 0:03:02.120 --> 0:03:04.800 the podcast. If you don't know what you really should like, 0:03:05.400 --> 0:03:08.000 download like subscribe all those. 0:03:07.960 --> 0:03:10.119 Where we get your podcast wherever we get your podcasts. 0:03:10.400 --> 0:03:15.800 Okay, the world is bananas basically, yes, So. 0:03:15.880 --> 0:03:17.680 Thank you for writing a book. 0:03:17.680 --> 0:03:19.799 I'm had to point it out about how the world. 0:03:20.080 --> 0:03:23.119 Yes, the world was always. 0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:26.520 Bananas, is what I'm hearing from this book. Yeah, so 0:03:26.560 --> 0:03:29.880 the book is called Snaffoo. Tell us right off the bat, 0:03:29.919 --> 0:03:32.360 what is a snaffoo? What does that acronym stand for? 0:03:32.639 --> 0:03:36.080 Well, snapfoo it was an acronym that started during World 0:03:36.160 --> 0:03:41.000 War Two. It stands for situation, normal, all fucked up, great, 0:03:41.360 --> 0:03:44.040 and most of us know it just as a term 0:03:44.080 --> 0:03:49.400 that means disaster or terrible situation or a pickle. 0:03:49.640 --> 0:03:51.200 Maybe it would be a lighter usage. 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:56.200 Yes, and yeah, the soldiers used it because I guess 0:03:56.960 --> 0:04:00.560 World War two is pretty fucked up and and it 0:04:00.600 --> 0:04:03.960 became just sort of a catchy, catchy phrase that made 0:04:04.000 --> 0:04:06.360 it into the lexicons. 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:08.280 It's a little bit like fubar. It's a little bit 0:04:08.280 --> 0:04:08.760 like fubar. 0:04:08.800 --> 0:04:11.560 It's exactly like fubar, which I think and I haven't done. 0:04:11.600 --> 0:04:13.480 I haven't done the research, but I think came from 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:14.400 the same time. 0:04:14.400 --> 0:04:16.840 Same time, upped up beyond all repair. 0:04:17.240 --> 0:04:17.440 You know. 0:04:18.839 --> 0:04:19.400 No, it's not. 0:04:20.279 --> 0:04:21.560 It's got a little more punched here. 0:04:21.600 --> 0:04:24.560 They're both very good. Okay, so okay. 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:27.960 It's the definitive guide to history's greatest scripts. And I 0:04:28.000 --> 0:04:29.960 have to say that it was a soothing like It's 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:34.280 pretty bizarre that a book that contains many stories about 0:04:34.360 --> 0:04:38.960 us on the precipice of nuclear meltdown actually cheered me up. 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:41.320 And I think that that says a lot about where 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:41.680 we are. 0:04:41.760 --> 0:04:44.720 So we've got you know, one of the first, one 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:46.720 of the first stories in the book is about a 0:04:46.720 --> 0:04:49.880 fun toy set for kids called the Gilbert Atomic Energy 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:54.400 Science Kit that contained really uranium. You all haven't read 0:04:54.400 --> 0:04:56.680 the book yet, but you're about to, and it's excellent. 0:04:57.080 --> 0:04:59.440 We've got nuclear reactors melting. 0:04:59.120 --> 0:05:03.040 Down, we've got apps with spy equipment implanted into. 0:05:02.839 --> 0:05:08.800 Their ears, Howard Hughes related giant plow machines, retrieving Russian subs. 0:05:09.040 --> 0:05:09.679 It's excellent. 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:14.320 Okay, was it difficult to narrow down all of the 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:16.800 world's fuck ups into only one volume? 0:05:16.880 --> 0:05:18.719 Because I feel like it's kind of endless? 0:05:18.960 --> 0:05:20.360 Great question, thank you. 0:05:21.600 --> 0:05:27.200 Yes, which is why I kind of just kind of 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:31.080 put some parameters on the whole thing, just the curatorial 0:05:31.880 --> 0:05:39.200 decision making boiled down to. It's mostly American stories. It's 0:05:39.240 --> 0:05:41.799 also mostly recent. 0:05:42.360 --> 0:05:42.920 The book is. 0:05:42.839 --> 0:05:47.960 Divided up into sections by decade. Yes, so it's it's 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:51.120 basically the fifties to now, So that's a pretty small 0:05:51.160 --> 0:05:55.120 window for human volleys. There's a lot of other stuff 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:57.960 that people did that was dumb. 0:05:59.400 --> 0:06:04.719 These blunders, these bad ideas are epic. Many of them 0:06:04.920 --> 0:06:08.720 are potentially world ending, but so many of them are 0:06:09.360 --> 0:06:11.400 childish and silly. 0:06:11.800 --> 0:06:14.120 I love Yes, I love that observation. 0:06:14.640 --> 0:06:15.279 Childish. 0:06:15.360 --> 0:06:20.600 They're like, should we detonate a nuclear bomb on the moon? 0:06:21.520 --> 0:06:24.720 This is this is full loony tunes. That's that's a 0:06:24.800 --> 0:06:25.680 chapter in the book. 0:06:25.760 --> 0:06:26.000 Yes. 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:27.720 Just to give you another little bit of. 0:06:27.720 --> 0:06:34.520 A sort of structural breakdown, there are thirty one chapters 0:06:34.920 --> 0:06:37.240 that are sort of that are divided up into decades 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:41.599 and each chapter is its own snaff woo, which makes 0:06:41.640 --> 0:06:44.320 it great for just like episodic reading. 0:06:44.360 --> 0:06:45.400 You could just pick it up. 0:06:45.440 --> 0:06:49.279 Yes, leave it on your toilet. I won't judge you. 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:51.960 If you're reading. It's good anywhere. 0:06:52.080 --> 0:06:54.440 Tell me about Okay, So the podcast that you do 0:06:54.520 --> 0:06:57.479 snafoo the book. The format of the book differs from 0:06:57.480 --> 0:07:01.080 the podcast because the podcast is like one big deep 0:07:01.160 --> 0:07:05.880 die anyone else shaking through the Yes, the subways. 0:07:05.920 --> 0:07:08.400 I've been living in La too long. I'm like earthquake earth. 0:07:10.360 --> 0:07:14.760 Oh no, I forget that. That ninety second three y 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:18.840 and the Angelica film theater Rattle with the trains. 0:07:18.960 --> 0:07:20.880 That's right, you know that every time I go to 0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:24.000 every time I go to La, I've experienced a minor 0:07:24.040 --> 0:07:27.360 earthquake every time I go. I'm a harbinger of doom, 0:07:27.760 --> 0:07:29.160 just like a tiny little you are. 0:07:29.480 --> 0:07:29.760 I know. 0:07:30.160 --> 0:07:32.200 Well, so what I'm saying is that was an earthquake. 0:07:32.520 --> 0:07:32.720 Yeah. 0:07:34.560 --> 0:07:37.560 What what is the difference between the podcast process, which 0:07:37.600 --> 0:07:41.560 is very long form and I mean it's long form 0:07:41.600 --> 0:07:43.960 to write a book, but it's more chapterized. So what 0:07:44.120 --> 0:07:49.120 is the difference between the process of doing those two things? 0:07:49.560 --> 0:07:52.960 So the podcast came first We started working on the 0:07:53.000 --> 0:07:58.160 podcast about three years ago, and it's it is a 0:07:58.280 --> 0:08:02.640 very different thing because it's each season of the podcast 0:08:02.720 --> 0:08:06.880 is a very deep dive into one thing, one snafu. 0:08:07.280 --> 0:08:10.480 So so there are now three seasons of the podcast 0:08:10.520 --> 0:08:14.840 out and uh, it's each season is eight episodes and 0:08:14.880 --> 0:08:19.920 again deep dive into one thing. And the book, as 0:08:19.920 --> 0:08:23.760 I just described, is lots of things perfect less of 0:08:23.800 --> 0:08:24.400 a deep dive. 0:08:24.640 --> 0:08:25.960 Perfect for the bathroom. 0:08:26.400 --> 0:08:30.640 Yeah, describe, let's talk more about how perfect it is 0:08:31.080 --> 0:08:38.040 for bathroom. But the process for building both of these 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:46.280 things is not dissimilar, because it's an amazing team or 0:08:46.600 --> 0:08:47.520 that worked on both. 0:08:47.600 --> 0:08:51.439 So about your team, because this is an incredible I mean, 0:08:51.480 --> 0:08:55.600 these people must be professional. Is it a group of historians, 0:08:55.679 --> 0:08:57.840 professional researchers, fact checkers. 0:08:57.559 --> 0:08:58.480 Like podcast nerds? 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:02.679 Podcast nerds is a team of how damn nerds? 0:09:02.760 --> 0:09:03.320 Much there? 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:10.280 This is an amazing team researchers and and just pulling 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:13.960 together so much information, helping structure information. 0:09:14.400 --> 0:09:16.560 How do you, I mean, how do you as a team, 0:09:16.600 --> 0:09:18.800 how do you curate the stories that you want to tell? 0:09:19.040 --> 0:09:20.080 How do you decide? 0:09:20.120 --> 0:09:20.280 How? 0:09:20.320 --> 0:09:21.520 What is the research process? 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:27.760 Like it's building a pool of possibilities pouring through them. 0:09:27.800 --> 0:09:29.360 And then in the case of. 0:09:29.400 --> 0:09:33.320 The in the case of the podcast, it's it's like, 0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:37.480 do we have the depth, does this story have the 0:09:37.520 --> 0:09:40.640 depth to carry a whole season? And then do we 0:09:40.720 --> 0:09:43.440 have access to the materials or the people that we 0:09:43.480 --> 0:09:44.240 want to talk to? 0:09:46.160 --> 0:09:50.080 And uh. And then for the book. 0:09:51.320 --> 0:09:54.560 Again we it was it was a matter of finding 0:09:54.600 --> 0:09:58.760 these sort of organizing principles or or like kind of 0:09:59.559 --> 0:10:03.160 cure itorial limitations that that would guide a little bit 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:09.440 of decision making. Ultimately, the other the other critical component 0:10:09.480 --> 0:10:13.840 to both the podcast and the book has been are 0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:19.839 these stories really well known or not? And the book 0:10:19.880 --> 0:10:24.520 avoids things like the Titanic or you know, the Donner 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:29.520 Party or things that which which are actually amazing and 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:35.560 like just epic stories that are incredible to learn about. 0:10:36.280 --> 0:10:39.400 But I think what makes what we made a decision 0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:41.600 early on to kind of like chase things that are 0:10:41.679 --> 0:10:45.200 less known to the popular memory. Yes, and that I 0:10:45.240 --> 0:10:48.559 think has really been an exciting thing about the podcast 0:10:49.160 --> 0:10:53.320 and and and the book. A lot of these things 0:10:53.800 --> 0:10:54.720 people just don't. 0:10:54.559 --> 0:10:56.040 Know, They really don't know. 0:10:56.160 --> 0:10:58.680 I many of the stories were surprising to me, and 0:10:58.720 --> 0:11:00.920 so many of the stories actually have a modern a 0:11:00.960 --> 0:11:03.800 really modern relevance. I mean, I'm sure you could not 0:11:03.880 --> 0:11:05.880 have expected this when you were curating the book, that 0:11:05.920 --> 0:11:09.480 we would be talking so much about Greenland right now. 0:11:09.840 --> 0:11:13.520 And there is an amazing story about Greenland in the book. 0:11:13.760 --> 0:11:16.559 And I really had no idea. And it not only 0:11:16.720 --> 0:11:19.280 is a very interesting story about something we knew very 0:11:19.280 --> 0:11:22.160 little about, but is it kind of an origin story 0:11:22.200 --> 0:11:25.720 about the United States and their relationship to Greenland and Denmark? 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:26.600 Can you talk about that? 0:11:26.960 --> 0:11:32.080 Yeah, okay, So there's an entire chapter dedicated to Project 0:11:32.280 --> 0:11:32.960 ice Worm. 0:11:35.840 --> 0:11:40.920 So, and you're right, it's so wild how prescient it is, because. 0:11:42.320 --> 0:11:45.000 As early as the nineteen fifties, it was very clear 0:11:45.080 --> 0:11:53.200 that Greenland was strategically excellent for launching missiles. And so 0:11:53.800 --> 0:12:01.240 Project ice Worm is exactly what it sounds like. Greenland 0:12:01.280 --> 0:12:05.720 is a giant sheet of ice. So someone hatched. 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:07.559 The idea, well, what if we could build. 0:12:07.360 --> 0:12:14.920 A railroad system underneath the Greenland ice sheet and fairy 0:12:15.120 --> 0:12:18.679 missiles around and launched them from wherever we wanted. 0:12:20.040 --> 0:12:20.760 In Greenland? 0:12:21.400 --> 0:12:22.600 What great idea? 0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:27.679 Great, I mean, a flawless ideas. So they opened up 0:12:28.200 --> 0:12:31.360 Camp Century, which was a sort of military a US 0:12:31.440 --> 0:12:39.040 military installation that had some cover stories, but was essentially 0:12:39.080 --> 0:12:42.600 a research project to see if this was feasible. And 0:12:42.720 --> 0:12:45.600 they put a nuclear reactor in it because they needed 0:12:45.679 --> 0:12:52.680 power and everybody loved nuclear stuff in the fifties. And 0:12:53.480 --> 0:12:57.960 they started to build basically an army base under the ice, 0:12:58.679 --> 0:13:01.520 and then they started digging tunnels to see if they 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:03.439 could get train tracks out, you. 0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:05.600 Know, across the whole country. 0:13:06.080 --> 0:13:13.559 And needless to say, ice is an unstable. 0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:16.199 Structural shift. 0:13:16.640 --> 0:13:22.760 Yeah, it's uh, so many things went wrong. They realized 0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:29.800 that that the breathing that people were doing was accumulating. 0:13:29.920 --> 0:13:33.280 The moisture from people's breath was adding to the thickness 0:13:33.320 --> 0:13:38.480 of the ice over time, and so the walls were 0:13:38.840 --> 0:13:43.720 shifting constantly. The ceilings were they basically installed. They dug 0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:49.280 out these massive holes and then installed prefab structures like 0:13:49.800 --> 0:13:50.440 kind of like. 0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:53.520 Prefram structures and nuclear reactor. 0:13:53.240 --> 0:13:56.360 And a nuclear nuclear reactor just. 0:13:56.000 --> 0:14:01.560 For just for funds, and the the the Danish government 0:14:01.679 --> 0:14:04.320 was like, you know what, you guys are cool, just 0:14:04.360 --> 0:14:05.800 don't tell us what's up. 0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:07.160 We do not want to know. 0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:12.000 Yeah, and it just none of it worked. 0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:13.640 No, none of it worked. 0:14:13.679 --> 0:14:17.600 And sadly now there is still a ton of nuclear 0:14:17.600 --> 0:14:23.240 waste and a ton of human waste because they just 0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:27.800 dug a giant pit in the ice for all the soldiers' 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:33.320 bathroom activity, right, which is a great place to read. 0:14:33.360 --> 0:14:35.000 My it's a great place to pick up a book. 0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:39.880 And so essentially the subway rumbling that we felt that 0:14:40.320 --> 0:14:44.520 was so minor was just constantly happening under the ice 0:14:44.640 --> 0:14:47.960 as people were living and working, and nobody really knew 0:14:47.960 --> 0:14:50.880 what the outcome was. Eventually they took everything out, but 0:14:50.960 --> 0:14:52.760 now we have a long legacy. 0:14:53.040 --> 0:14:57.480 Well now there's a lot of nuclear waste frozen under 0:14:57.480 --> 0:15:04.800 the ice and people got sick from that local Greenland, 0:15:04.960 --> 0:15:11.120 indigenous people and it was tragic. And there is also 0:15:11.320 --> 0:15:13.480 just all of that human waste, and it's a lot 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:18.200 is frozen and global warming will reveal it and it's 0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:23.280 one of one of the things global warming will do 0:15:23.440 --> 0:15:23.920 that's bad. 0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:28.280 I feel great because I feel that when we purchase Greenland, 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:32.200 which is going flawlessly, we'll probably clean it up because 0:15:32.200 --> 0:15:34.040 we have a really good track record of that, right. 0:15:34.200 --> 0:15:38.120 Yeah, yeah, a hundred Actually, as soon as it's ours, 0:15:38.840 --> 0:15:39.600 we probably will. 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:40.040 We probably. 0:15:40.680 --> 0:15:42.640 Yeah, it really takes a lot of promises. 0:15:42.200 --> 0:15:44.200 Were made that it would get cleaned up and it 0:15:44.240 --> 0:15:44.760 never did. 0:15:45.320 --> 0:15:48.920 And of course, yeah, actually talking, I mean on the 0:15:48.960 --> 0:15:51.560 subject of global warming. There's a really great, pretty short 0:15:51.600 --> 0:15:55.360 chapter about the ozone layer in the in the kind 0:15:55.360 --> 0:15:59.400 of section on the nineteen eighties, and it was it's 0:15:59.720 --> 0:16:04.400 a great reminder that scientific consensus is possible, and sometimes 0:16:04.440 --> 0:16:07.800 we act in our own best interests after tremendous you know, 0:16:08.000 --> 0:16:10.840 tremendous push and pull, but sometimes we can get there. 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:16.640 Does that feel realistic anymore? I'll show myself out. 0:16:19.120 --> 0:16:21.720 I hadn't thought of that story in that context that 0:16:21.800 --> 0:16:25.880 I'm so glad you made that connection, because that really 0:16:25.920 --> 0:16:31.080 is that that is a great example of like seeing 0:16:31.160 --> 0:16:36.040 a problem, understanding the problem, and then actually pushing hard 0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:40.480 against industrial interests to fix that problem. 0:16:40.560 --> 0:16:42.880 And it worked. It really worked. 0:16:43.080 --> 0:16:45.280 And that's not to say that it wasn't a complicated 0:16:45.360 --> 0:16:47.200 journey to get there, and I'm sure it took a 0:16:47.200 --> 0:16:49.400 long time, but there was a kind of a sense 0:16:49.880 --> 0:16:54.680 that you could harness people's personal activity and people. 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:57.480 You could tell people, population would act. 0:16:57.720 --> 0:17:02.520 You could actually inform people that maybe things were bad 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:05.639 or unhealthy for them or the world right, and they 0:17:05.720 --> 0:17:06.320 might listen. 0:17:07.200 --> 0:17:09.680 Oh dear, any. 0:17:09.600 --> 0:17:14.880 Way, One thing that this is more this is more 0:17:14.880 --> 0:17:17.199 a comment than a question, is that the book is 0:17:17.320 --> 0:17:20.679 it's very funny, and it's of course it's like it's chilling, 0:17:20.720 --> 0:17:23.000 but it's very interesting. But it is a great reminder 0:17:23.040 --> 0:17:26.080 that the world is now, but it has always been 0:17:26.200 --> 0:17:32.560 a scary place with incompetence and institutional chaos and insane ideas. 0:17:33.040 --> 0:17:34.800 Those are forever. 0:17:36.200 --> 0:17:39.160 I feel like it's happening at. 0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:42.040 A speed, like a real a velocity that is. 0:17:43.200 --> 0:17:47.879 Really frightening right now in particular. And what really strikes 0:17:47.920 --> 0:17:49.800 me about many of the stories in the book is 0:17:49.800 --> 0:17:53.280 that all of this, like subterrifusion, all these crazy ideas 0:17:53.320 --> 0:17:58.920 really happen behind the scenes, like behind a very secretive 0:18:00.440 --> 0:18:03.760 and we just learned about them by accident. Someone's going 0:18:03.760 --> 0:18:07.680 through Carl Sagan's old applications for grants and they're like, hey, 0:18:07.680 --> 0:18:09.040 what now, what are you're reading? 0:18:09.160 --> 0:18:09.720 Is this real? 0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:18.280 But we're seeing so much incompetence so openly, can you? 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:20.640 I guess, I mean, that's your opinion, that's my. 0:18:20.640 --> 0:18:24.320 Opinion true, And I just wonder if we want to 0:18:24.359 --> 0:18:26.160 take a minute and consider what we're going to find 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:28.600 out in the future about what was happening now. 0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:30.320 Yeah, no, you're right. 0:18:30.520 --> 0:18:34.520 This is a what's what feels different right now is 0:18:34.560 --> 0:18:38.600 how transparent the incompetence is or seems to be. 0:18:39.720 --> 0:18:43.840 But that also like we're probably just. 0:18:43.960 --> 0:18:47.440 Seeing that the top ten percent of the iceberg, right, 0:18:47.680 --> 0:18:55.639 and it will be decades of unfolding insanity. There are 0:18:55.680 --> 0:18:59.840 a few threads that I think emerge in studying these 0:18:59.840 --> 0:19:00.280 things things. 0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:04.520 Yeah, and one is one. 0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:10.440 That I mean hubris obviously, and the secrecy is a 0:19:10.440 --> 0:19:12.200 big one that you just mentioned. 0:19:12.880 --> 0:19:13.879 Another one is. 0:19:13.800 --> 0:19:20.159 The the the group think of a close of people 0:19:20.200 --> 0:19:21.240 in a closed. 0:19:20.880 --> 0:19:27.919 Bubble, right, And that's what that's what happens in. 0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:35.320 Like institutions like the CIA or the FBI. Season two 0:19:35.359 --> 0:19:40.400 of the podcast is a deep dive into an incredible 0:19:40.440 --> 0:19:47.720 story about citizen activists in the seventies who broke into Basically, 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:55.159 they felt that the FBI was being very dastardly surveilling people, 0:19:56.240 --> 0:19:59.280 harassing people, encroaching civil liberties. 0:20:00.160 --> 0:20:03.080 But who do you go to when law enforcement is 0:20:03.200 --> 0:20:03.919 out of line? 0:20:04.640 --> 0:20:07.600 And also at the time, Jadegar Hoover was the head 0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:11.560 of the FBI and an American hero. Everybody loved him, 0:20:13.240 --> 0:20:16.280 which was a very curated image. He was very deep 0:20:16.400 --> 0:20:19.960 into kind of manipulation of pop culture. He was involved 0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:24.639 with movies that starred Jimmy Stewart, as you know, the 0:20:26.080 --> 0:20:27.440 ideal FBI. 0:20:27.160 --> 0:20:29.240 Agent and so forth. 0:20:29.560 --> 0:20:35.320 But these activists realized that they had one option, which 0:20:35.480 --> 0:20:38.600 was to somehow infiltrate. 0:20:38.640 --> 0:20:40.320 They decided to stage. 0:20:39.960 --> 0:20:45.280 An elaborate heist, and they, at insane personal risk to 0:20:45.359 --> 0:20:51.840 themselves and their families, broke into an FBI office in Media, 0:20:51.840 --> 0:20:57.760 Pennsylvania and stole all the files. And that was at 0:20:57.800 --> 0:21:00.919 a time when this we didn't have hard drives, so 0:21:01.080 --> 0:21:04.920 most branch offices of the FBI had most FBI files, 0:21:05.480 --> 0:21:09.200 and they took everything and they poured through it, and 0:21:09.240 --> 0:21:13.560 they found actual documentation and evidence of some of this 0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:19.120 horrible malfeasance that Jadegar Hoover's was up to. And they 0:21:19.160 --> 0:21:23.920 sent it to a number of congress people and reporters 0:21:24.720 --> 0:21:27.600 and most of them chickened out. 0:21:28.359 --> 0:21:29.440 One person. 0:21:31.040 --> 0:21:33.760 Published those papers, and I think she is in the 0:21:33.800 --> 0:21:37.840 audience tonight too, and it's Washington Post reporter Betty Metzger. 0:21:38.440 --> 0:22:04.440 And all that that gave me chills. 0:22:06.160 --> 0:22:10.800 Yeah, that's it's an incredible story of citizen activism and 0:22:10.880 --> 0:22:16.119 heroism and and people putting themselves at risk for just 0:22:16.160 --> 0:22:18.639 to do the right thing, and it led to the 0:22:19.000 --> 0:22:20.240 fallout was incredible. 0:22:20.320 --> 0:22:20.960 It led to. 0:22:22.760 --> 0:22:30.280 The exposure of co intel pro, which was Hoover's counterintelligence program, 0:22:30.760 --> 0:22:36.000 which was basically an institutional harassment of so many different groups, 0:22:36.160 --> 0:22:43.959 civil rights activists, anti war activists, and others. And and 0:22:44.040 --> 0:22:48.040 it led to the to the church hearings, which is 0:22:48.720 --> 0:22:53.520 the only reason we now have any congressional oversight over 0:22:54.480 --> 0:22:58.080 all of these intelligence agencies. The n Essay, the CIA, 0:22:58.200 --> 0:23:01.720 the FBI. I don't know how much good that's doing. 0:23:01.920 --> 0:23:07.160 I still have that, but here's what But here's here's 0:23:07.200 --> 0:23:12.800 what's I think also incredible about that story and this 0:23:12.880 --> 0:23:17.439 moment is that we're in a moment where the FBI 0:23:17.720 --> 0:23:20.760 feels like a political tool again. 0:23:21.760 --> 0:23:26.080 But the keyword is again. You know it really it was. 0:23:26.359 --> 0:23:31.919 It was a terrifying institution through j Edgar Hoover's epic reign. 0:23:32.200 --> 0:23:34.560 I mean, he was in charge of the FBI for 0:23:34.600 --> 0:23:39.040 so long and and and used it just for so 0:23:39.119 --> 0:23:43.639 many petty grievances and so forth. And it feels like 0:23:43.760 --> 0:23:46.640 we're getting there, if not already there. 0:23:47.320 --> 0:23:47.679 Again. 0:23:49.960 --> 0:23:51.280 I don't mean to say this in a way that 0:23:51.320 --> 0:23:54.880 diminishes the sort of terror. 0:23:54.720 --> 0:23:55.720 Of the moment or. 0:23:55.720 --> 0:24:01.600 The the intensity of the moment. But what that JEdgar 0:24:01.600 --> 0:24:06.920 Hoover's story shows us is that there can be light 0:24:06.960 --> 0:24:07.840 at the end of the tunnel. 0:24:08.320 --> 0:24:10.359 You do say that in the intro to the book 0:24:10.400 --> 0:24:12.560 that you sort of see the book as a force 0:24:12.840 --> 0:24:17.400 for optimism in a very chaotic world, which feels kind 0:24:17.440 --> 0:24:20.800 of counterintuitive, but I see, I take the point we 0:24:20.840 --> 0:24:25.239 have made. We have majorly blundered in the past, and 0:24:25.280 --> 0:24:28.679 we have the force of human good has prevailed. 0:24:29.520 --> 0:24:33.800 Yeah, it's a choice to see things that way. It's 0:24:33.960 --> 0:24:38.000 almost like, but I think it's a good choice. But 0:24:38.440 --> 0:24:42.920 I do think that what these blunders and face plants 0:24:42.960 --> 0:24:47.280 and terrible snapfoos throughout history show us is is a 0:24:47.320 --> 0:24:52.040 resilience also, right, and a kind of like tendency towards 0:24:52.800 --> 0:24:54.320 equilibrium of some kind. 0:24:54.720 --> 0:24:55.760