WEBVTT - Surfing the Web Like a Super Spy 0:00:04.240 --> 0:00:07.960 Get in touch with technology with tex Stuff from dot 0:00:07.960 --> 0:00:14.920 com either and welcome to tex Stuff. I'm Jonathan Strich 0:00:15.040 --> 0:00:19.600 and we have a special person joining us this week. 0:00:20.239 --> 0:00:23.079 Special persons. That makes it sound a little bit well, 0:00:23.120 --> 0:00:26.120 he's a special guest. There you go. And he is special. 0:00:26.320 --> 0:00:28.960 He's very special. He is he is our good friend 0:00:29.120 --> 0:00:32.800 and yours. Uh. He's the guy who tells you the 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:39.360 stuff that they don't want you to know. Mr. Been Both. Hey, guys, thanks, 0:00:39.680 --> 0:00:41.920 thanks so much for having me on the show. I've 0:00:41.960 --> 0:00:46.880 got news from my co host Matt Frederick. Unfortunately, Matt 0:00:47.040 --> 0:00:51.000 is diligently working. Uh and right now he said he 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:54.720 is here in spirit, um, but he can't be in 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:57.920 here in person, right he he is. Actually, he had 0:00:57.960 --> 0:00:59.760 planned on joining us and this would have been a 0:01:00.240 --> 0:01:04.679 crazy four person podcast, something that has never been attempted 0:01:04.800 --> 0:01:08.560 ever in the history of the Internet. I'm not sure 0:01:08.600 --> 0:01:11.720 if that's but yeah, no, very impressive, yes, at least 0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:16.080 the history of tech stuff at anywhere. So but unfortunately, 0:01:16.160 --> 0:01:18.560 as he is, he has slammed. He of course is 0:01:18.600 --> 0:01:21.200 also a video editor and uh, you guys might not 0:01:21.360 --> 0:01:24.760 know this. Uh, that takes some time. So but the 0:01:24.760 --> 0:01:27.080 reason we decided to bring Ben in is because you 0:01:27.120 --> 0:01:30.199 may remember if you listen to this show often. Back 0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:33.240 in April, Lauren and I did an episode about tour 0:01:33.560 --> 0:01:36.640 and the Deep Web, and at the end of the 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:39.160 show we said, hey, guys, would you like to learn 0:01:39.240 --> 0:01:41.880 more about how you can actually surf the web anonymously? 0:01:42.319 --> 0:01:45.480 And all of you said yes, every single life. In fact, yeah, 0:01:45.520 --> 0:01:48.840 some of you voted more than once, which we appreciate 0:01:48.880 --> 0:01:52.040 the enthusiasm. So we have been trying to find the 0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:54.680 right time to to get together and have a discussion 0:01:54.720 --> 0:01:58.800 about what exactly it takes to really serve the web 0:01:58.880 --> 0:02:03.040 anonymously and and Ben, as we have all discovered, it's 0:02:03.080 --> 0:02:05.920 it's not it's not just a simple thing that you 0:02:06.000 --> 0:02:08.000 hit a little switch in your browser and you're good 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:12.440 to go. Yeah. It's a situation where we quickly learn 0:02:12.520 --> 0:02:15.800 the difference between the concept of something being possible and 0:02:15.840 --> 0:02:19.840 the concept of something being plausible. Yeah, it is possible 0:02:20.400 --> 0:02:25.799 two access the web anonymously finger quotes if you're very, 0:02:25.880 --> 0:02:27.480 very careful and you take a lot of time and 0:02:27.520 --> 0:02:30.119 you do some things that we're going to talk about today. Uh, 0:02:30.160 --> 0:02:32.920 it is not plausible that you will succeed. It's not 0:02:33.040 --> 0:02:37.959 plausible certainly the more frequently you access the web, absolutely right, Yeah, 0:02:38.000 --> 0:02:40.120 because the more times you need to do it, the 0:02:40.200 --> 0:02:43.600 harder it's going to become for you to to to 0:02:43.639 --> 0:02:46.200 sustain that anonymity, and the more you want to do. 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:48.680 If you're doing like one thing, that's fine. If you're 0:02:48.720 --> 0:02:51.639 trying to browse Netflix, it's not really Yeah, if you're 0:02:51.680 --> 0:02:55.040 logging into your Netflix account, really, uh, we have some 0:02:55.120 --> 0:02:58.200 bad news for you. Anything that involves the user name 0:02:58.240 --> 0:03:03.240 password probably not really the most anonymous of activities. But first, 0:03:03.480 --> 0:03:05.799 just as an overview, Yeah, there are a lot of 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:10.200 different reasons why someone might want to serve the web anonymously. 0:03:10.680 --> 0:03:14.200 Some are even completely legit. Yeah, there we can get 0:03:14.200 --> 0:03:17.160 the the the ones, the shady ones out of the way. 0:03:17.200 --> 0:03:20.480 I mean, obviously if you're planning on doing something that 0:03:20.680 --> 0:03:28.320 is you know, not strictly speaking legal. Yeah, Like, uh, Lauren, Jonathan, 0:03:29.040 --> 0:03:31.960 you and I Matt decide that it's finally time that 0:03:32.040 --> 0:03:34.080 we robbed that bank, and then we say, okay, there 0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:36.040 are a couple of things we need to learn about 0:03:36.080 --> 0:03:40.000 banks and security cameras and escape routes and stuff like that. 0:03:40.200 --> 0:03:44.320 We would want to serve the web anonymously, but that is, 0:03:44.800 --> 0:03:46.880 as you said, just something we need to get away 0:03:46.880 --> 0:03:52.240 from at the top, because there are so many legitimate 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:55.120 reasons that people not just in the United States, but 0:03:55.160 --> 0:03:59.240 around the world especially would have to serve the web anonymously. Right. So, 0:03:59.320 --> 0:04:01.000 for example, one of the one of the ones that 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:04.640 you hear over and over our journalists reporters, right, people 0:04:04.720 --> 0:04:08.280 who perhaps have to communicate with a source and that 0:04:08.400 --> 0:04:12.119 source needs to remain anonymous in order for this this 0:04:12.360 --> 0:04:15.200 uh information exchange to happen, or to protect their own 0:04:15.200 --> 0:04:18.080 safety exactly. Yeah, we could be talking about someone who's 0:04:18.120 --> 0:04:22.320 giving a very high level security leak kind of information 0:04:22.360 --> 0:04:25.599 that really has the potential to affect millions of people. 0:04:25.839 --> 0:04:30.279 This is kind of like that Snowden situation, Edward Snowden, 0:04:30.520 --> 0:04:34.080 So you would definitely want to maintain that person's anonymity 0:04:34.120 --> 0:04:36.760 as well as you know, the communications that are going 0:04:36.760 --> 0:04:39.279 on between you until you are ready to publish a 0:04:39.320 --> 0:04:42.479 full story. Now, you know, responsible journalists are going to 0:04:42.480 --> 0:04:44.800 be doing things like making sure that the information they 0:04:44.839 --> 0:04:48.479 get is as verifiable as possible before moving forward. So 0:04:48.560 --> 0:04:50.839 it's not like we're just saying, you know, this is 0:04:50.880 --> 0:04:53.880 a way for people to spread misinformation, although that does happen, 0:04:54.520 --> 0:04:58.280 but is totally cromulent for journalists to want to have 0:04:58.320 --> 0:05:01.320 this kind of level of an emity when trying to 0:05:01.320 --> 0:05:04.240 to to coordinate the source of stuff. Sure, also in 0:05:04.279 --> 0:05:06.880 the tech sector, for example, if you're developing a new 0:05:07.279 --> 0:05:10.200 a new piece of technology, or a new iteration of 0:05:10.240 --> 0:05:13.039 a technology and you don't want other companies to know 0:05:13.120 --> 0:05:15.680 what you're up to, Yeah, yeah, I mean you know 0:05:15.760 --> 0:05:19.400 we how many times have we seen leaks from things 0:05:19.400 --> 0:05:23.360 like a supply chain where we learn about upcoming as 0:05:23.480 --> 0:05:26.480 Apple is probably the best example of this, right because 0:05:26.520 --> 0:05:30.600 everyone is so invested in learning what Apple's next product 0:05:30.720 --> 0:05:34.320 is that you've got an intense level of scrutiny on 0:05:34.360 --> 0:05:37.720 the entire supply chain from the point where they're building 0:05:37.760 --> 0:05:41.240 the chips to the screens to assembling the whole piece together, 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:44.599 so that you can have security totally locked down at Apple, 0:05:45.000 --> 0:05:47.599 and somewhere else along the chain there might be a leak. Well. 0:05:47.640 --> 0:05:50.240 Even that that extends even to just the research and 0:05:50.279 --> 0:05:52.880 development phase where people are using the Internet for for 0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:56.800 legitimate purposes and they don't want that information getting out there. 0:05:56.839 --> 0:05:59.000 They want to have as much secrecy there as possible, 0:05:59.080 --> 0:06:02.520 especially if people are aware like Hey, you know Jem 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:04.800 down the street. Did you know that Jem is like 0:06:04.839 --> 0:06:07.920 the head of product development for Apple's I phone. That 0:06:07.960 --> 0:06:13.040 would be like people, Oh, you don't say exactly, which 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:15.920 is good that they're using such a non suspicious voice 0:06:16.160 --> 0:06:21.400 to to play it off. The news about Jim certainly 0:06:21.440 --> 0:06:25.680 should not be twirling your mustache. So there there are 0:06:25.720 --> 0:06:30.000 a number of other reasons as well, and in many 0:06:30.040 --> 0:06:35.839 cases these are these are things that might sound overly dramatic, 0:06:35.880 --> 0:06:38.719 but it really does happen. Internet access is not created 0:06:38.720 --> 0:06:42.600 equally by any means, and we're gonna explore some things 0:06:42.600 --> 0:06:45.400 that might sound foreign to a lot of viewers or 0:06:45.520 --> 0:06:48.600 excuse me, a lot of listeners who are not who 0:06:48.600 --> 0:06:51.880 are not acquainted with this. And one of the one 0:06:51.920 --> 0:06:55.640 of the biggest reasons that people would need anonymous internet 0:06:55.680 --> 0:06:59.719 access is something that's kind of um personally important to 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:01.760 me for people to have this right. If you're in 0:07:01.800 --> 0:07:07.039 a country where government descent is not allowed, or where 0:07:07.279 --> 0:07:09.840 you can be penalized for going on you know, the 0:07:09.920 --> 0:07:13.280 Chinese version of Twitter or some short uh, then you 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:16.640 need to be able to have some sort of safe 0:07:16.640 --> 0:07:20.680 way to do this, and um, unfortunately, many countries there's 0:07:20.800 --> 0:07:24.520 not really a legal way to do this. Sure, Yeah, 0:07:24.800 --> 0:07:29.480 so we have a like, let's let's take the definition 0:07:29.480 --> 0:07:32.720 of human rights as say, would be defined by the 0:07:32.760 --> 0:07:35.680 United Nations. Okay, there are some countries out there that 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:40.480 have have policies that kind of go against a lot 0:07:40.520 --> 0:07:44.880 of those definitions. And if you if you believe that 0:07:45.280 --> 0:07:48.960 humans actually possess these rights, whether they belong to one 0:07:49.000 --> 0:07:52.040 country or another, then you probably also believe that they 0:07:52.080 --> 0:07:55.960 need to have this kind of ability to remain anonymous 0:07:56.000 --> 0:08:00.400 and yet voice their concerns, their thoughts, to be able 0:08:00.480 --> 0:08:04.360 to assemble at least virtually, and be able to to 0:08:04.440 --> 0:08:06.800 tell that they are not a lone person in a 0:08:07.000 --> 0:08:10.280 sea of darkness. This kind of it does sound like 0:08:10.280 --> 0:08:13.880 we're going dramatic, but this is the Arab spring work. Yeah, 0:08:14.160 --> 0:08:16.560 this is a literal situation that happens. You know, being 0:08:16.600 --> 0:08:20.320 able to share your ideas and also access information is 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:23.720 so important and is denied to too many citizens of 0:08:23.800 --> 0:08:26.840 this world, and for those of us who live who 0:08:26.880 --> 0:08:28.920 are fortunate enough to live in places that at least 0:08:28.920 --> 0:08:32.800 ostensibly protect those human rights. Um, you know, there's still 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:35.680 other things that we could become victim to. For example, 0:08:35.760 --> 0:08:39.480 just people who want to cause midschief or hackers who 0:08:39.480 --> 0:08:42.800 want to target you for one reason or another. Um 0:08:42.840 --> 0:08:44.520 and it may not even be that they want to 0:08:44.559 --> 0:08:47.920 target you specifically, but you just kind of want to 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:50.880 avoid all of that and cut down on all that possibility. 0:08:50.880 --> 0:08:53.400 You may just want to serve the web anonymously because 0:08:53.440 --> 0:08:55.480 they're there are only certain things you want to have 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:58.640 access to. You don't care about everything else out there. 0:08:59.440 --> 0:09:00.840 So it's not like you're gonna go on YouTube and 0:09:00.840 --> 0:09:03.120 watch a billion videos. It's not like you're gonna go 0:09:03.160 --> 0:09:05.559 on Facebook and update your status profile. All you want 0:09:05.600 --> 0:09:08.400 to do is be able to research something, read up 0:09:08.440 --> 0:09:11.880 on something, whatever, and that's it. You might want to 0:09:11.880 --> 0:09:14.400 be able to serve the web anonymously just to avoid 0:09:14.559 --> 0:09:17.959 the possibility that you're going to run into, you know, troublemakers. 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:21.880 But here's the question then, right, and I think we've 0:09:21.880 --> 0:09:25.080 done a great job showing this, uh, this need and 0:09:25.160 --> 0:09:30.880 this legitimate interest in anonymous web us. Why is it 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:35.280 so difficult? Why is it possible but not plausible? Okay? Well, 0:09:35.440 --> 0:09:38.600 first of all, just the way the internet works makes 0:09:38.640 --> 0:09:42.400 it really really hard, right, because in order for you 0:09:42.480 --> 0:09:45.360 to be able to get any information to your computer, 0:09:46.400 --> 0:09:49.520 that information has to has nowhere to go, right. It 0:09:49.559 --> 0:09:52.000 has to know what pathway to take so that it 0:09:52.040 --> 0:09:55.640 gets from the server where it lives on to your 0:09:55.679 --> 0:09:57.920 computer so you can see it. Now. This is no 0:09:57.960 --> 0:10:00.400 matter what kind of service you're using on the internet, 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:02.160 if you're trying to access something, as long as you're 0:10:02.200 --> 0:10:05.440 not just pushing stuff out and you're expecting to get 0:10:05.520 --> 0:10:10.480 something back, it has to know where to go. Uh. 0:10:09.360 --> 0:10:12.439 The thing I was thinking, I was imagined like you 0:10:12.480 --> 0:10:14.760 are trying to send a message to somebody, and I, 0:10:14.920 --> 0:10:18.520 you know, like I want to get a note specifically 0:10:18.559 --> 0:10:21.160 to Lauren. And Lauren has happened to take a trip 0:10:21.200 --> 0:10:24.120 where she's all the way out in California. And the 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:26.320 way I've chosen to get the message to her is 0:10:26.360 --> 0:10:29.599 I've written the messaging code and I've left no identifying 0:10:29.600 --> 0:10:32.480 information on it whatsoever. I've even I've even used my 0:10:32.679 --> 0:10:35.000 right hand instead of my left hand to right the code, 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:39.160 so my handwriting is disguised. I then wrapped that that 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:41.800 message up in a little ribbon, tie it to a 0:10:41.800 --> 0:10:46.040 helium balloon, let it go, and hope that somehow the 0:10:46.080 --> 0:10:48.800 balloon finds its way to Lauren, that she is able 0:10:48.840 --> 0:10:52.560 to decode the message, able to decipher despite the fact 0:10:52.559 --> 0:10:55.320 that I've left no identifiable information in there about who 0:10:55.320 --> 0:10:57.679 sent the message, who it was, who wrote it, and 0:10:57.720 --> 0:11:00.400 then in turn be able to respond in a in 0:11:00.440 --> 0:11:02.560 a similar way and send that message back to me 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:05.840 where it just magically makes its way to me. Clearly, 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:09.520 that scenario is impossible, right, yeah, Yeah. The the real 0:11:09.559 --> 0:11:11.160 way that the Internet works is more like if the 0:11:11.160 --> 0:11:15.520 postal system was made entirely of clear boxes and and 0:11:15.800 --> 0:11:18.679 everyone passing the box along the route from you to 0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:20.960 whoever you're sending it to, you can see exactly what's 0:11:21.000 --> 0:11:23.160 going on in it unless you've taken some kind of 0:11:23.200 --> 0:11:27.040 step to you or to encrypted. Right, So, if if 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:29.280 you have an encrypted message, let's say, then you've got 0:11:29.280 --> 0:11:32.160 a clear box which inside of it is a a 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:34.480 an opaque box. So you know that there's a box, 0:11:34.720 --> 0:11:37.840 you know approximately how much information is there, and you 0:11:37.840 --> 0:11:40.000 know where it's coming from, and you know where it's 0:11:40.040 --> 0:11:42.280 going to because you have to have that address or 0:11:42.320 --> 0:11:44.760 else the data just doesn't go anywhere. It would just 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:48.000 would you, It would go to that first stop on 0:11:48.200 --> 0:11:50.880 the internet, and then there'd be nowhere to go because 0:11:50.880 --> 0:11:53.840 you wouldn't have any information saying hey, send this message 0:11:53.880 --> 0:11:57.040 to this destination. So, because you have to have these 0:11:57.080 --> 0:12:00.400 IP addresses so that information can actually go to where 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:02.000 it needs to go and get back to where it 0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:04.920 needs to get back to, that limits how anonymous you 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:08.120 can be. Right now, that IP address can be assigned 0:12:08.120 --> 0:12:10.600 by an Internet service provider and it doesn't have to 0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:13.920 have anything to do with whatever machine you're on, right, 0:12:14.000 --> 0:12:16.520 the computer you're using does not necessarily it's not going 0:12:16.559 --> 0:12:18.600 to have the same IP address all the time. Yeah, 0:12:18.640 --> 0:12:21.840 it's not like tattooed with barcode or something like that, 0:12:22.040 --> 0:12:25.000 but well, I mean probably it literally is. Barcode is 0:12:25.040 --> 0:12:28.280 not its IP address, right, right, So the that IP 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:31.560 address is going to at least have a general idea 0:12:31.600 --> 0:12:35.480 of the geography that you are in, uh and based 0:12:35.520 --> 0:12:40.280 upon your habits what you use the Internet for, that 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:43.520 might be enough. Just the general geography and and your 0:12:43.600 --> 0:12:46.200 pattern of using the Internet, that could be enough to 0:12:46.320 --> 0:12:50.200 identify who is using the Internet, because the way eyebrows 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:52.840 the Internet could be extremely different from the way say 0:12:52.920 --> 0:12:56.319 Lauren does, and I highly suspect it is, I imagine, 0:12:56.400 --> 0:12:59.200 so aside from when we're researching the same topic. In 0:12:59.200 --> 0:13:01.800 that case, we think we find literally all the same articles. 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:04.840 I am pretty sure that I watch a lot more 0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:08.240 YouTube videos about family surprising their kids with trips to 0:13:08.280 --> 0:13:11.319 Disney than Lauren does. I think you guys are about 0:13:11.480 --> 0:13:14.880 one for one on Corgy videos though. Corgy videos, yes, 0:13:14.960 --> 0:13:17.800 or I mean they rank highly on both sides, but 0:13:18.200 --> 0:13:21.439 they're they're sure there are anomalies. If you're only looking 0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:24.040 at Corgy video activity, then you might not be able 0:13:24.080 --> 0:13:26.560 to determine whether it's Lauren or whether which. Which is 0:13:26.559 --> 0:13:30.000 a great point because it goes back to earlier. We 0:13:30.040 --> 0:13:32.959 can all recall hearing the big stink in the United 0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:38.200 States about um the government tracking metadata, and people would say, well, 0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:41.199 you know, metadata is not a big deal. It's just 0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:45.160 stuff like the address and the time, and and it's 0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:52.000 more the it's more like the measurement of the pages 0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:55.600 of a book than the description of the story. However, 0:13:56.440 --> 0:13:59.360 from that, the reason it's important is exactly what you're saying, Johnathan, 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:03.800 because it is possible to build um, not just a 0:14:03.800 --> 0:14:06.760 profile of a person, but to find the actual person. Yeah, 0:14:07.000 --> 0:14:09.680 from enough of that metadat Yeah, And and it doesn't 0:14:09.720 --> 0:14:13.800 take that much really, especially for particular types of meta data. 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:16.600 For example, if you have like a zip code and 0:14:16.679 --> 0:14:20.400 maybe a car make and model, well that and and 0:14:20.440 --> 0:14:23.080 a gender, Well, then you've really got enough information to 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:25.320 really narrow it down to a handful of people. Because 0:14:25.960 --> 0:14:28.320 you know that you've got a population within a zip code. 0:14:28.440 --> 0:14:31.160 The gender will divide that essentially in half, and so 0:14:31.200 --> 0:14:33.080 how many of those people have a two thousand and 0:14:33.120 --> 0:14:37.520 four Yeah, and then you have essentially really narrowed it 0:14:37.560 --> 0:14:41.480 down to a very small number of potential people. This 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:45.440 is why it doesn't really require that much personal identifiable 0:14:45.440 --> 0:14:48.520 information to track it back to a specific person. Now, 0:14:48.520 --> 0:14:51.320 there's some things on the Internet that are not necessary 0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:54.120 for the Internet to work right or like, especially for 0:14:54.200 --> 0:14:58.119 web browsing. So, for example, cookies. Cookies are not necessary 0:14:58.200 --> 0:15:00.360 to make the web work, although you'll probably go to 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:03.000 a page occasionally that says, this website uses cookies, and 0:15:03.280 --> 0:15:05.880 let us tell you how ye enable them so that 0:15:06.240 --> 0:15:09.000 this website will work the way it's supposed to. Cookies 0:15:09.000 --> 0:15:12.920 are just text files. They can include enough information that 0:15:12.960 --> 0:15:16.160 could be useful to the person using the website to 0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:20.600 customize your experience that the intent is so that if 0:15:20.640 --> 0:15:23.840 you keep going back to the same website frequently, it 0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:27.320 already knows things that you do and do not need, 0:15:27.520 --> 0:15:29.360 and so it will load much faster. It will give 0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:32.400 you more personalized experience, but it also means that there's 0:15:32.440 --> 0:15:35.000 some tracking that can happen there and identification that can 0:15:35.000 --> 0:15:38.360 happen there. So turning that off is probably something you 0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:40.360 would want to do if you want to be anonymous. 0:15:40.520 --> 0:15:42.960 I'll go into more about that in a bed. Oh, Jonathan, 0:15:43.040 --> 0:15:47.000 welcome back to Amazon based on your browsing preferences. I 0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:50.400 can't wait to hear this. Yeah, here are several calendars 0:15:50.440 --> 0:15:53.840 of quarkies. Okay, that's fair, that's fair. Uh, that I 0:15:53.960 --> 0:15:55.880 just recently made a purchase, so I was wanting to 0:15:55.880 --> 0:15:58.160 see if perhaps somehow it was going to tie into 0:15:58.160 --> 0:16:01.680 what I actually bought. But ows but not quite um 0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:06.920 And then things like like search engines can maintain activity logs, 0:16:07.000 --> 0:16:09.120 so and those will link back to an IP address. 0:16:09.320 --> 0:16:12.440 So let's say that you are using a computer, You've 0:16:12.480 --> 0:16:15.760 logged into the Internet, your computer has an IP address, 0:16:15.840 --> 0:16:18.600 and you start searching for various terms. This kind of 0:16:18.600 --> 0:16:20.880 goes back to that idea of the four of us 0:16:20.880 --> 0:16:25.280 are all searching about robbing a bank. Now that that information, 0:16:25.360 --> 0:16:27.560 if we're let's say we're all using Google because it 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:28.960 makes it easier if we just go ahead and use 0:16:28.960 --> 0:16:33.200 an example, Google's maintaining this activity log of all four 0:16:33.240 --> 0:16:36.920 of us independently using Google to research everything that is, 0:16:36.960 --> 0:16:41.080 to research about robbing a bank, and then later on 0:16:41.120 --> 0:16:44.640 the lawn law enforcement officials, uh subpoena Google to get 0:16:44.640 --> 0:16:47.360 those activity logs so that they can see who it 0:16:47.520 --> 0:16:51.640 is in this geographic region that was looking for this stuff. Um, 0:16:51.840 --> 0:16:54.800 you know that's again that's another reason why when you 0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:58.000 start talking about really being anonymous using the web, you 0:16:58.040 --> 0:17:00.520 have to shy away from all the convenient says that 0:17:00.600 --> 0:17:03.960 make the web so useful in situations where you're not 0:17:04.040 --> 0:17:07.280 as concerned about your anonymity. Yeah, that's a really great point, 0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:10.960 and that's something that, oddly enough, we were exploring both 0:17:11.000 --> 0:17:14.560 on this show and on car stuff, because there's this 0:17:14.600 --> 0:17:18.800 big idea about cars becoming connected to the cloud, right 0:17:18.840 --> 0:17:21.520 and the whole internet of cars knowing exactly where you 0:17:21.560 --> 0:17:24.440 are all the time, exactly exactly. And North has been 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:28.679 parked outside of this dance club for a really long time. 0:17:29.119 --> 0:17:35.200 He's cutting a rug and that's how Jonathan's car would sound. Yeah, 0:17:35.600 --> 0:17:37.880 I like to think that all my technology has has 0:17:37.960 --> 0:17:42.000 weird affectations in its speech, I hope so, because what 0:17:42.080 --> 0:17:45.000 else is the future would be no fun that you 0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:46.800 couldn't do. It would just be Yeah, it could all 0:17:46.840 --> 0:17:49.360 be like robot voice. But that gets old pretty quickly, right, 0:17:49.400 --> 0:17:54.040 So the um, the purpose of this this great thing 0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:58.760 called the Internet is inherently to share things that are 0:17:58.840 --> 0:18:04.640 easily seen. It is not to hide things. So it's already, um, 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:08.480 it's already unsurprising if you think about it that it's 0:18:08.560 --> 0:18:11.720 it's really difficult to participate in something that is all 0:18:11.720 --> 0:18:14.840 about telling people's stuff in a way that doesn't it's 0:18:14.880 --> 0:18:18.119 a communications platform, and if you're if you're trying to 0:18:18.200 --> 0:18:21.840 be completely anonymous in a communications platform, that's tricky. I mean, 0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:24.760 there are obviously message boards out there that allow for 0:18:24.880 --> 0:18:30.399 complete anonymity and uh complete complete being an in air 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:34.040 quotes which work really well over the radio. But yeah, 0:18:34.040 --> 0:18:37.960 it's it's it's definitely one of those things where, uh, 0:18:38.000 --> 0:18:43.359 you know, the the anonymity kind of can inhibit a 0:18:43.440 --> 0:18:47.720 lot of what makes the Internet so useful. So especially 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:50.320 in these are modern Internet times, like as the Internet 0:18:50.320 --> 0:18:52.920 has grown in, big data has grown and and all 0:18:52.920 --> 0:18:56.119 these things we've we've been talking about websites storing information 0:18:56.480 --> 0:18:58.640 from you so that they can serve you better headlines 0:18:58.680 --> 0:19:01.040 that you're more likely to want to click on. Uh, 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:05.280 you're you're evading the point. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a 0:19:05.440 --> 0:19:08.240 that's a good way to say it. So with with this, 0:19:08.320 --> 0:19:11.439 we've we've painted the difficulty. We've talked about the reasons 0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:14.560 why you want to do it. So for all the 0:19:14.600 --> 0:19:17.679 people who wrote in and voted more than once saying yes, 0:19:18.320 --> 0:19:21.440 tell me how to surf anonymously? What? What? What would 0:19:21.480 --> 0:19:24.240 they do? You? Guys, I'm asking for a friend. Okay, Well, 0:19:24.359 --> 0:19:27.639 then your friend needs to know that if if your friend, 0:19:28.320 --> 0:19:32.000 if he or she is truly determined to surf the 0:19:32.040 --> 0:19:36.199 web anonymously, he or she should be prepared to go 0:19:36.320 --> 0:19:41.280 to great lengths in order to do so, including if 0:19:41.320 --> 0:19:43.760 he or she plans on doing this more than once. 0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:48.760 Not using the same device burner, laptops, I like it, ye. 0:19:48.920 --> 0:19:52.159 Step Step one don't use your own device ever, No, 0:19:53.480 --> 0:19:55.879 not not connected to the internet anyway. Step one is 0:19:55.920 --> 0:19:58.359 don't use your own device. Step two is you probably 0:19:58.440 --> 0:20:01.280 don't want to use like a mobile device that connects 0:20:01.280 --> 0:20:04.560 to the Internet because it's likely registered to you or 0:20:04.680 --> 0:20:08.280 to someone you know, and most of them have some 0:20:08.359 --> 0:20:12.400 form of way of identifying where you are. So even 0:20:12.400 --> 0:20:15.560 if somehow you magically have a phone working where there's 0:20:15.600 --> 0:20:19.560 not a direct link between you and the phone, the 0:20:19.600 --> 0:20:21.880 fact that it is going to be able to determine 0:20:21.880 --> 0:20:26.119 where it is geographically, either just cell phone towers or 0:20:26.280 --> 0:20:29.520 it may have GPS enabled to that's going to give 0:20:29.560 --> 0:20:34.320 it even more specific location. Sure, you can turn three 0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:37.000 G or four G or whatever you have. You can 0:20:37.080 --> 0:20:39.879 turn satellite service off on your phone. However, then you 0:20:39.920 --> 0:20:42.960 need to be connected to WiFi, and you can't just 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:44.760 connect to you I mean, you can't just call up 0:20:44.920 --> 0:20:47.400 Comcast and be like, hey, I'd like to get some Internet, 0:20:47.680 --> 0:20:52.840 but anonymously never mind. Yeah, that's a really good way 0:20:52.840 --> 0:20:54.439 to not get an account, right that, Not that I 0:20:54.480 --> 0:20:57.840 know personally. The same thing is true about just Internet 0:20:57.840 --> 0:21:01.080 service providers in general. Litering, Like like whether it's Comcast 0:21:01.200 --> 0:21:03.720 or whatever, whatever the i s P is, if you 0:21:03.760 --> 0:21:06.320 are trying to use your own, say your own setup 0:21:06.359 --> 0:21:11.120 at home, then automatically your I s P, you know, yeah, 0:21:11.240 --> 0:21:13.639 and know exactly they know which account it goes to 0:21:13.720 --> 0:21:16.880 at any rate, So you know that means that it's 0:21:16.920 --> 0:21:20.800 narrowed down who could potentially be the person actually doing 0:21:20.840 --> 0:21:23.359 the searches. It's pretty much anyone who has access to 0:21:23.400 --> 0:21:25.560 your household, which is why if you're really trying to 0:21:25.600 --> 0:21:28.480 make this happen, ladies and gentlemen, you will need to 0:21:28.520 --> 0:21:34.040 find the most public computer possible. We're talking about libraries, 0:21:34.440 --> 0:21:39.439 cyber cafes, uh, college campuses. Yeah. Yeah, you want to 0:21:39.440 --> 0:21:42.960 be able to use a computer where uh the real 0:21:43.080 --> 0:21:45.760 First of all, there's a possibility that any number of 0:21:45.760 --> 0:21:49.520 individuals could have been using that ability, right right, Yeah, 0:21:49.520 --> 0:21:51.320 It's one of those safety and numbers kind of issues 0:21:51.359 --> 0:21:53.600 that kind of comes up a lot in in our discussion. 0:21:53.640 --> 0:21:56.520 I think, yeah, so that's that's one thing you're and 0:21:56.600 --> 0:21:58.720 you don't want to use the same one twice in 0:21:58.760 --> 0:22:01.560 a row. So if your session is over and then 0:22:01.600 --> 0:22:04.119 you think, oh shoot, I need to go do something else, 0:22:04.600 --> 0:22:07.600 you probably need to go to a different site. In fact, 0:22:07.760 --> 0:22:10.680 a different site entirely, like not even on that same 0:22:10.720 --> 0:22:14.119 network would be the best choice for you. I mean, ideally, 0:22:14.440 --> 0:22:17.159 the scary thing is about this that the more you 0:22:17.200 --> 0:22:22.160 think about it, uh, the larger the scale becomes. Because then, yes, 0:22:22.440 --> 0:22:24.400