Speaker 1: Wow, I feel like you understand me so well. I'm
Speaker 1: just like, does everybody feel this time with you?
Speaker 2: I don't think so. I don't think so at all.
Speaker 2: There's a few people I'd like you to call, actually
Speaker 2: on my behalf. Hello, I'm mini driver. I've always loved
Speaker 2: Preust's questionnaire. It was originally in nineteenth century parlor game
Speaker 2: where players would ask each other thirty five questions aimed
Speaker 2: at revealing.
Speaker 3: The other player's true nature. In asking different people the
Speaker 3: same set of questions.
Speaker 2: You can make observations about which truths appear to be universal.
Speaker 3: And it made me.
Speaker 2: Wonder, what if these questions were just the jumping off point,
Speaker 2: what greater depths would be revealed if I asked these
Speaker 2: questions as conversation starters.
Speaker 3: So I adapted.
Speaker 2: Prus's questionnaire and I wrote my own seven questions that
Speaker 2: I personally think are pertinent to a person's story.
Speaker 3: They are when and where.
Speaker 2: Were you happiest? What is the quality you like least
Speaker 2: about yourself? What relationship, real or fictionalized, defines love for you?
Speaker 2: What question would you most like answered, What person, place,
Speaker 2: or experience has shaped you the most? What would be
Speaker 2: your last meal? And can you tell me something in
Speaker 2: your life that's grown out of a personal disaster. And
Speaker 2: I've gathered a group of really remarkable people, ones that
Speaker 2: I am honored and humbled to have had the chance
Speaker 2: to engage with. You may not hear their answers to
Speaker 2: all seven of these questions. We've whittled it down to
Speaker 2: which questions felt closest to their experience, or the most surprising,
Speaker 2: or created the most fertile ground to connect. My guest
Speaker 2: today is the author and great wit Lisa Today. Lisa
Speaker 2: essentially writes books you can't put down. Her debut novel,
Speaker 2: which is called Three Women, was released in twenty nineteen
Speaker 2: and it was recently made into a pretty excellent show
Speaker 2: on the television, and if you haven't read it, you
Speaker 2: really need to. Her second novel was as good, and
Speaker 2: it was called Animal, And she also has this brilliant
Speaker 2: collection of short stories called Ghost Lover. Lisa has this
Speaker 2: angular wit that is full of self reflection and candid observation.
Speaker 2: She is ruthless in the way that she sees herself
Speaker 2: and her idiosyncrasies, but so warm and funny and clever.
Speaker 2: And hearing her speak about her beloved dad was one
Speaker 2: of the best things I listened to last year.
Speaker 3: I really hope you enjoy our conversation.
Speaker 2: Someone called my face extremely square, which it is, but
Speaker 2: that's not the point on an open post on my
Speaker 2: Instagram the other day, and it really triggered me because
Speaker 2: at school I was called fifty p face, which is
Speaker 2: a hexagonal coin in the British lexicon of money. And
Speaker 2: I realized my response really would have been yes, and
Speaker 2: but these things from our childhood, they have fingers that
Speaker 2: reach along into off eatues.
Speaker 4: Wow.
Speaker 1: That first of all, I just have to say, as
Speaker 1: someone who grew up watching you and movies and thinking
Speaker 1: you were the most beautiful woman ever, I don't see
Speaker 1: the square face. But what's interesting is my husband said
Speaker 1: that my teeth were not age appropriate.
Speaker 4: Which is like a weird burn.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 4: It's like a what does that mean? And I was
Speaker 4: like what does that mean? He's like, well, that's just
Speaker 4: such a husband was right, And I'm like, what does
Speaker 4: that mean?
Speaker 1: He's like, no, they're just they're younger than you.
Speaker 4: I was like, they're like little girl teeth and you're
Speaker 4: like a woman.
Speaker 2: What person, place, or experience most altered your life.
Speaker 4: The death of my father.
Speaker 3: Oh bless him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was in a car accident, and it was
Speaker 1: it was shocked because it was someone who had promised
Speaker 1: me he would never die.
Speaker 3: That was my dad, Daddy so fucked.
Speaker 4: But just definitely that utterly changed everything.
Speaker 3: Who are you before he died?
Speaker 4: That was utterly You're going to make me cry?
Speaker 3: Oh Angel, I don't.
Speaker 4: I know, I do it all the time.
Speaker 2: Don't worry about well, me too, But here I'm literally
Speaker 2: supposed to be the grown up.
Speaker 3: For as my son yelled.
Speaker 2: At me one day, I don't know, you're the mummy
Speaker 2: when he was five and I was crying.
Speaker 1: And you're like, oh God, but not right now? Can
Speaker 1: you just take care of me? Can I porepify you
Speaker 1: for a second, because I exactly exactly.
Speaker 3: I don't want to make you cry.
Speaker 4: Angel, Tell me was I before?
Speaker 3: Or tell me about your dad if that's easier.
Speaker 4: My dad was a doctor.
Speaker 1: He was the kind of doctor they don't make anymore where,
Speaker 1: like you know, house calls and a leather doctor bag
Speaker 1: going into the house. And at his funeral there were
Speaker 1: like thousands of people on a block around like he
Speaker 1: was just like one of those people who everyone in
Speaker 1: a community was like. And to me, obviously it was
Speaker 1: that plus everything else, plus I was scared about health stuff.
Speaker 4: So like I just had like.
Speaker 1: A all in one person who would literally put the
Speaker 1: seatbelt on me when I would leave the house in
Speaker 1: the morning to go to school. When I started driving,
Speaker 1: he would click it in so he knew it was
Speaker 1: on there, which is, you know, obviously ironic that he
Speaker 1: was not wearing a seat belt in his accident anyway.
Speaker 4: Before he died. I remember saying this to my boyfriend
Speaker 4: at the time when he was like.
Speaker 1: He was nervous about some medical thing, some issue, and
Speaker 1: I was like, look, our bodies do things sometimes that
Speaker 1: we just can't explain and we just can't think about it.
Speaker 1: We just have to live in the present. That's who
Speaker 1: I was before my dad. I was the person I'm
Speaker 1: trying to get back to.
Speaker 2: Angel Oh okay, okay, like the mad woman living alongside
Speaker 2: the wise woman.
Speaker 3: She is still there, She's here.
Speaker 2: Like as women we forget, we have this strange amnesia,
Speaker 2: I believe, which is about having to exist as an
Speaker 2: adult woman in this world with all of the things
Speaker 2: that are taken away and that are suppressed.
Speaker 3: And I feel you so hard.
Speaker 2: About trying and wanting to and it feeling difficult to
Speaker 2: return to that person that we were before the trauma
Speaker 2: all the trauma happened. All I can tell you is
Speaker 2: that even though my dad didn't die like that, I
Speaker 2: want to get back to that little girl, but I
Speaker 2: don't think she's gone anywhere.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 2: It's very hard though, because it's very hard to like,
Speaker 2: now you're a mum and you're a wife, and you've
Speaker 2: got to do the shopping, and you've got to write
Speaker 2: the books, and you've got to have your reproductive rights
Speaker 2: taken away, and you've got to walk down the street
Speaker 2: and do the dry cleaning and the laundry. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: also there's a little child waving in the distance that like,
Speaker 2: we can't deal with it every day, but you do
Speaker 2: it in your writing though, Like it feels like you
Speaker 2: revisit so many beautiful things that you then examine, like
Speaker 2: you're very gently turning over a rock and like looking
Speaker 2: at it and looking at all the different ways that
Speaker 2: it looks in a light. And that's how it feels
Speaker 2: reading your books, is that I am examining life with you.
Speaker 4: That is so cool. Thank you. That's my grandest hope.
Speaker 4: So I'm glad to hear this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, we're going to move on from the snags.
Speaker 2: It's going to make me write also, okay, where and
Speaker 2: when were you happiest? My god, I no one's ever
Speaker 2: laughed that hard like they like milk would have come
Speaker 2: spurting out of your nose if I.
Speaker 3: Can't even believe how hard you're laughing. She's laughing like
Speaker 3: a benchie.
Speaker 1: It's so funny because if you would ask me when
Speaker 1: and where were you the status, I would have so
Speaker 1: many things to go through, like a library, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: which one do you want? Which of these beautiful bobbles
Speaker 1: can I offer you?
Speaker 4: When you asked me what I'm happy is? I do
Speaker 4: know two things.
Speaker 1: The first, the biggest one was when I was pregnant
Speaker 1: with my daughter and they had found some other stuff
Speaker 1: that I had to get more tests for that made
Speaker 1: everything awful.
Speaker 4: But at the same time.
Speaker 1: That they were giving me the results of these tests,
Speaker 1: they also told me that it was a girl, and
Speaker 1: I wept so much, and I was able to feel
Speaker 1: the joy about it being a girl, even though somebody
Speaker 1: was telling me I might not be alive to see
Speaker 1: her for very long after she was born because of
Speaker 1: something they had found that ended up being okay, but
Speaker 1: not till after she was born. Anyway, that moment, the
Speaker 1: fact that I was able to experience joy within the
Speaker 1: fear spiral that I was in is probably my happiest note.
Speaker 3: Wow, that is a bubble within a bubble.
Speaker 2: Were you wereware at the time this is pure joy
Speaker 2: or were you just living it at what because it
Speaker 2: was also existing along with this other really frightening news?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Or was it on reflection when you found out that
Speaker 2: you were going to be fine and you could then
Speaker 2: look back on it and find that joyful resonance.
Speaker 1: That's a brilliant question. I think a little bit of both.
Speaker 1: I think in the moment, I was shocked that I
Speaker 1: was able to feel it. I remember feeling shocked at
Speaker 1: feeling joy. Oh, so that's why it's something that really
Speaker 1: I was just like whoa. And then I was telling
Speaker 1: one of my friends, this the only time I can
Speaker 1: get there, you know. And I tried different things for
Speaker 1: depression and whatnot. The the way I can really get
Speaker 1: there is with nitrous oxide at the dentist. And I
Speaker 1: was telling one of my friends that I liked and
Speaker 1: I've been telling a lot of people I'm like, I
Speaker 1: really like nitrous, you know, the dentists, and they're just like,
Speaker 1: no one has circled around me like the way they
Speaker 1: have with other things like.
Speaker 4: Ketamine and mushrooms.
Speaker 1: But they just like kind of let me sit there
Speaker 1: with the nitrous thing, and I feel like a monster.
Speaker 1: But then the other day one of my daughter's friend's
Speaker 1: dads was like, oh he was British.
Speaker 4: He's like, I fucking love that too.
Speaker 2: Finally waits, what's your dentist's name? Actually I can't, I
Speaker 2: can't do that, no, But I was just thinking do
Speaker 2: you call up mister Reuben and saying I think I
Speaker 2: got a cavity, it might be a rekanal. I think
Speaker 2: I might need to come in. Do you have Munchenhausen dentists?
Speaker 2: Because you want the nitrous.
Speaker 4: I don't have that yet, but I'm looking.
Speaker 1: I'm always looking at my taking taking applications.
Speaker 4: You know, I don't currently have a provider.
Speaker 3: That's really interesting.
Speaker 2: So it's pretty dramatic, Like your moments of feeling happiness
Speaker 2: are like joy within the context of what could actually
Speaker 2: be a tragedy and.
Speaker 3: Nitrous oxide.
Speaker 2: Yes, is there somewhere in between as somebody who like
Speaker 2: I think a lot of people live with sadness. Do
Speaker 2: you become more or less aware of your happiness? Like
Speaker 2: is it easy to try and forget about it? Or
Speaker 2: do you just become When you see a robin in
Speaker 2: your garden, do you go, oh, my god, a robin.
Speaker 3: That makes me feel happy? Now back to the gloom.
Speaker 1: I feel like I can cancel my therapy for a
Speaker 1: while because I feel like these are really like I'm
Speaker 1: just like thinking, like all I do is already think
Speaker 1: about my mental state.
Speaker 4: So the fact that I'm thinking even more about it
Speaker 4: is shocking.
Speaker 3: I'm very invested in your happiness.
Speaker 2: Suddenly, I really am on your path to it, Like
Speaker 2: this is great.
Speaker 4: That's what my next book is about. It's my path
Speaker 4: to something.
Speaker 1: But when I'm sad, I am a yes, like you
Speaker 1: were saying, there's people, And I feel this way that
Speaker 1: there's two sides of the coin, the sort of people
Speaker 1: who live on the side of Like when you said,
Speaker 1: is there a robin in your garden that's beautiful? I
Speaker 1: am looking outside at my backyard, which is very lovely,
Speaker 1: especially in the fall, and it's magical, and I see
Speaker 1: it through two different lenses. One of the way that
Speaker 1: I would like to experience it of oh, there is
Speaker 1: a robin on the wooden fence, on the beautiful patch
Speaker 1: of grass with the marigolds there. How lovely that all
Speaker 1: these things coalesced to form this perfect picture of fall
Speaker 1: that I can enjoy. And then I'm like, there's people
Speaker 1: who don't get to ever see that. So why am
Speaker 1: I deserving? That this could all go away in an instant?
Speaker 1: So what's the point of being happy about it? It
Speaker 1: hurts more to lose it? And then the you ungrateful bitch,
Speaker 1: how dare you? And then so that's the cycle of
Speaker 1: seeing a robin.
Speaker 3: I feel, I feel you.
Speaker 2: Sometimes a robin just isn't allowed to be a robin exactly,
Speaker 2: I see, yes.
Speaker 1: And I think my experience of that, at least in
Speaker 1: this current iteration of my life and with what is
Speaker 1: going on out in the wide world, I think that
Speaker 1: I feel like a failure for not not experiencing things.
Speaker 1: But I think we all just experience things so differently,
Speaker 1: and I think so many of us and not to
Speaker 1: get all whatever, but part of the capitalist machine is
Speaker 1: just doing the next thing, you know, and in order
Speaker 1: to make everybody happy and make all the wheels turn,
Speaker 1: there really isn't time for existentialism anymore, you know, they're
Speaker 1: just social media has replaced existentialism.
Speaker 2: It's so true, because you do you see somebody else,
Speaker 2: you're like, oh my god, you're spiraling too goodness actually
Speaker 2: alone exactly exactly.
Speaker 1: But then you also see all the people who are
Speaker 1: just plowing through like everything's fine, and you're like, which
Speaker 1: one do I do?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I suppose that is always the choice. Huh it's
Speaker 2: that Robert Frost poem.
Speaker 4: Yes, exactly.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I came to a fork in the woods on.
Speaker 1: A snowy Yeah, and I took the path less travel line,
Speaker 1: and that has made all the difference, has it?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Exactly? Has it? Has it?
Speaker 4: Though? But has it?
Speaker 3: Like seriously Robert has it?
Speaker 4: Has it? Because I don't know exactly?
Speaker 1: And I think in this business, of which I am
Speaker 1: a very nascent member, but you know, even in the
Speaker 1: book world and stuff, there is such an element of
Speaker 1: the show must go on. And that's true of everything.
Speaker 1: And I don't just mean like current situations aside. I
Speaker 1: mean in general, the show must go on is the
Speaker 1: name of the game. And anyone who sort of doesn't
Speaker 1: want the show to go on, you either get left over, there.
Speaker 1: Way that I say that my husband and daughter sometimes
Speaker 1: handle my depression is just by stepping over it, like
Speaker 1: it's a dead body on the floor onto the.
Speaker 4: Next event, like, okay, is mom coming up? I love
Speaker 4: to drag.
Speaker 2: So that's so strange as well, like the idea of
Speaker 2: it being other than you, like mom's dead body, that
Speaker 2: they have to step away, like it's sort of, oh,
Speaker 2: let's put it in the second person so it isn't
Speaker 2: actually happening to me.
Speaker 4: Which is helpful, which is something I should perhaps by the.
Speaker 2: Way, I think I might have said this on here before,
Speaker 2: but my editor, she is the most incredible woman. She's
Speaker 2: very briefly my editor, and she gave me this incredible note.
Speaker 2: She was like, I want you to look up the
Speaker 2: emotional places in your book where you suddenly go into
Speaker 2: the second person, where you know when you're feeling agonized,
Speaker 2: where your heart is breaking, you know when you feel
Speaker 2: like a dead body that people are stepping up, And
Speaker 2: she said, I just want you to just just just
Speaker 2: for a laugh, put it all into the first person.
Speaker 2: And I wrote it and I literally felt like I
Speaker 2: was going to throw up as I was writing my
Speaker 2: heart is breaking, I feel like a dead body people
Speaker 2: stepping over Like it was so interesting psychologically, and now
Speaker 2: I start thinking, now I do it with passages of
Speaker 2: bits that I'm writing.
Speaker 3: If I don't feel connected, I'll just throw it.
Speaker 2: Into a different EOV exactly, Yeah, and see if that
Speaker 2: shifts that. Maybe that's a trick that all writers know.
Speaker 2: But it was so we do it as women though
Speaker 2: my friends do it. Yes, my girlfriends do it, and
Speaker 2: I now stop them and go, you're saying you, and
Speaker 2: I know you mean I, and I think if you
Speaker 2: say I, we can be in the room with us more.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: That's so interesting, and it's something just from the writing
Speaker 1: angle of it.
Speaker 4: I think about all the time.
Speaker 1: Like most of the time, I'm not that excited to
Speaker 1: talk about like the quote unquote craft things because I
Speaker 1: feel like I've got so much other stuff going.
Speaker 4: But that is the one thing that I think I've got, Robinster,
Speaker 4: That's that's phenomenal.
Speaker 2: I love asking a fiction writer, this, what relationship, real
Speaker 2: or fictionalized defines love for you.
Speaker 1: Fictionalized was Carrie Elways and Robin Wright and the Princess Bride.
Speaker 1: That's what told me what love is. And then I
Speaker 1: have to say, my husband and I. We fight literally
Speaker 1: every single day. There is not a day that our
Speaker 1: daughter doesn't say, this is the stupidest thing I've ever
Speaker 1: heard anyone argue about.
Speaker 4: Can you guys stop?
Speaker 1: Because it was like about the coffee maker and he's
Speaker 1: like logical and autistic and ADHD and I have OCDS,
Speaker 1: so we have all these dueling mental illnesss with it,
Speaker 1: argue with each other, alongside child wounds and all of that.
Speaker 1: But I have to say that the love that he
Speaker 1: has for me, that he says I'm not living in
Speaker 1: our actual love story yet but he will wait there
Speaker 1: until I do that is I gotta say. I really
Speaker 1: like that. It feels like the most real love story
Speaker 1: available to me. He also at one point said, don't worry.
Speaker 1: One day you're gonna get all the little things done
Speaker 1: that are on your little lists, and we're going to
Speaker 1: have one day where we're happy and you're happy, and
Speaker 1: that day is going to come.
Speaker 4: So let's just live your life.
Speaker 1: Keep doing what you're doing and being sad and thinking
Speaker 1: and not trusting me and thinking nothing's real, and one
Speaker 1: day you're going to be able to enjoy it all
Speaker 1: and then we'll die.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, Oh my god. I love your husband.
Speaker 3: It's that roomy quote again.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Here it is out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and right doing,
Speaker 2: There is a field. I'll meet you there while the
Speaker 2: soul lies down in the grass. The world is too
Speaker 2: full to talk about ideas language. Even the phrase each
Speaker 2: other doesn't make any sense. Oh, oh my god, that's
Speaker 2: your husband. I love that.
Speaker 3: We'll see if it's actually.
Speaker 4: Exactly that's the thing. It's like, I don't know that
Speaker 4: when you trust, we don't know.
Speaker 2: It's so funny because that is an everyday occurrence. It
Speaker 2: seems to me trusting you wake up every day and
Speaker 2: you go and you do a situational assessment. Can I
Speaker 2: trust that this is breakfast and everything is okay?
Speaker 3: All right? I can. That's as good as it gets.
Speaker 2: Sometimes I think blanket trust is not actually functional possible.
Speaker 4: It's really not.
Speaker 1: But I think people always say that it is. My
Speaker 1: husband's therapist had said to him the reason that when
Speaker 1: he was afraid to fly. He's like, it's because you
Speaker 1: don't trust the pilot. And it's like, well, why should.
Speaker 4: Why don't we know the pilot?
Speaker 1: I never met him, Like what, I should trust the
Speaker 1: pilot because that's his job. Should I trust the doctor
Speaker 1: that messed up my knee surgery? And now I need
Speaker 1: a full replate, like should I trust them implicitly? Should
Speaker 1: we just trust people? Because I've trusted people and had
Speaker 1: a lot of things left up about it. So it's like,
Speaker 1: you know, went into a meeting the other day and
Speaker 1: the person was like, well, you know, I might not
Speaker 1: want to say that because you know, people always sue
Speaker 1: us for stealing their ideas, And I'm like, well, I'm
Speaker 1: just going to go into this blindly trusting like I've
Speaker 1: done everything else, and see how that works for me,
Speaker 1: because I just can't do it any other way.
Speaker 3: I listen, I am with you.
Speaker 2: I will make a choice to trust even though life
Speaker 2: proves over and over again that shit often doesn't work out.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I just don't think that's the point.
Speaker 2: I think you have to take that as shit is
Speaker 2: not going to work out for the most part, but
Speaker 2: the times that it does are going to be so great,
Speaker 2: and something usually comes It dovetails into the last question
Speaker 2: I ask on this podcast. Invariably something comes out of
Speaker 2: the shit. That's not a reason to pursue it, but
Speaker 2: it's definitely worth keeping in mind.
Speaker 4: You know, it's vital to keep in mind.
Speaker 2: In fact, I'm nervous to ask you what is the
Speaker 2: quality you like least about yourself?
Speaker 3: Because but what is the quality you like least about yourself?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 1: I think my addiction to my fear. I think I'm
Speaker 1: addicted to my fear. And I think that I don't
Speaker 1: think I've made a conscious decision to let go of it,
Speaker 1: because I still believe it protects me even though it doesn't.
Speaker 3: Okay, So.
Speaker 2: Who is the you knowing that, mannie?
Speaker 1: I'm trying to figure that out. I'm like, who am
Speaker 1: I without the fear? I say this to my husband
Speaker 1: all the time. He's like, you just got to let
Speaker 1: go of it. I'm like, if I let go of that,
Speaker 1: there'll be nothing here.
Speaker 2: But the person, the person who is here observing that
Speaker 2: you sitting here talking to me. Yeah, is that like
Speaker 2: a psychological shift? Is that maybe because you're a writer
Speaker 2: where you can actually you shift the pav even on
Speaker 2: your own experience, by going, I do this thing. I
Speaker 2: am addicted to fear. I think I will not be
Speaker 2: protected if I let go of it. Who is that
Speaker 2: person talking? Who is talking that sense? Because we all
Speaker 2: have that and I want to fucking know who she
Speaker 2: is because all those people should get together and have tea.
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, and those people should stick.
Speaker 3: Around and keep the wheels on the wagon, exactly.
Speaker 1: And that's one of the reasons why I write is
Speaker 1: to remember that, Like when I look back and see
Speaker 1: words that I've written when I'm in a clearer state,
Speaker 1: it feels a little bit helpful.
Speaker 4: But it also feels like who is that?
Speaker 1: Like you just said, I know how to have self
Speaker 1: awareness about what I'm doing, and then I know what
Speaker 1: I'm like when I'm in the cargo holds of indefensible fear.
Speaker 4: And fatrid and shame. But I don't know where the
Speaker 4: twain meet. But that is a.
Speaker 1: Really that's a great like the person who's like I
Speaker 1: want to think the robinsful, like where is the exactly?
Speaker 2: Or maybe it's just about like she is there, like
Speaker 2: when you look back or when I read your books
Speaker 2: and I feel your clarity. She is there, like she
Speaker 2: is demonstrably there. So perhaps it's not so much like
Speaker 2: how do I find her and make her stick around?
Speaker 2: It's more about.
Speaker 3: Going, No, she is there. It's the statue inside the marble.
Speaker 2: There is all this other stuff around her, and maybe
Speaker 2: it's about and I'm saying this generally because this is
Speaker 2: not you in isolation. I am fascinated, like, and this
Speaker 2: conversation has triggered this thing that I think about at
Speaker 2: four o'clock in the morning, which is the wise woman
Speaker 2: who talks to us and calms us, and we call
Speaker 2: her our self awareness.
Speaker 3: She is real. She is as real as our fear.
Speaker 3: She is as real as.
Speaker 2: Our negative slaggy old slagface. He tells us that we're
Speaker 2: square face and.
Speaker 4: Teeth is so much better. I feel like that's such
Speaker 4: a better jew V. That's really good.
Speaker 3: That's it because gvteth is as mean as.
Speaker 4: Tiftyp face, Like yeah, totally.
Speaker 3: Anyway, maybe that's it.
Speaker 2: Maybe we just have to leave room for that clarity
Speaker 2: when you look back, instead of going, oh, I was
Speaker 2: so clear, it's yeah, but she is there. She's living
Speaker 2: alongside the mad woman, and that's maybe that's all right.
Speaker 4: That's absolutely beautiful.
Speaker 1: I need to write that down because I feel like,
Speaker 1: just for my own like the mad Woman, like the
Speaker 1: Jane Eyre you know whatever, and the attic living yes,
Speaker 1: and it's okay, you know, I'm literally writing that down
Speaker 1: because I just feel like it'll remind me that it's okay,
Speaker 1: like the whole shadow aspect of.
Speaker 4: Ourselves making room for them.
Speaker 1: But what's so interesting is the POV stuff in writing,
Speaker 1: which I think is so fascinating. What you were saying
Speaker 1: about the idea of turning it on yourself and saying
Speaker 1: I and then feeling the eye of that. I wrote
Speaker 1: a short story when I was getting my MFA at
Speaker 1: Boston University, and the short story was completely in the
Speaker 1: second person.
Speaker 4: And this other writer because you know, you go around the.
Speaker 1: Room and critique everyone's writing, and it was very aggressive.
Speaker 4: You do this because you.
Speaker 1: It was like the character themselves was a sort of
Speaker 1: bad person, not bad, just like flawed human, et cetera.
Speaker 4: Not bad, but you know, president.
Speaker 3: Whatever, President, Yes.
Speaker 1: But this other writer in the class was like, I
Speaker 1: felt so aggressed upon by Lisa's story because it was
Speaker 1: like you take the subway to blah blah blah because
Speaker 1: you feel like that girl doesn't deserve whatever. Like it
Speaker 1: was all this and I was just like so fascinated
Speaker 1: by that that she had felt and I kind of
Speaker 1: was the feeling I wanted to elicit, but that she
Speaker 1: had felt that, and the you of it had even
Speaker 1: though we were in a writing class and writing in
Speaker 1: the second person, is you know, well something that people do.
Speaker 1: I just remember her feeling that way, and when you
Speaker 1: said that, your editor gave you that note and you
Speaker 1: put it back on the eye, and I just I
Speaker 1: was wondering, like about doing that with that even though
Speaker 1: it's gone.
Speaker 4: But you know, it's just a really interesting thing.
Speaker 3: It is.
Speaker 2: Listen the POV Like, I asked that quite a lot,
Speaker 2: like who is the POV four? Is it for me
Speaker 2: to create distance from the scary things I'm saying that
Speaker 2: maybe they're not fiction, maybe they're real. Or is it
Speaker 2: because I think it's a cool tool. Yeah, quite interesting
Speaker 2: just to I don't know. Maybe it's just about the
Speaker 2: interrogation of it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, totally. I think everything is about that.
Speaker 3: So what question would you most like? Answered?
Speaker 4: God, I'm going to give you something that's rather dark to.
Speaker 3: I wouldn't expect anything less.
Speaker 4: Thank you for my next book.
Speaker 1: It's about shocker grief, the grief of being alive essentially,
Speaker 1: not the grief of being alive like full stop, but
Speaker 1: the grief that comes with just consciousness, whether it's mental
Speaker 1: illness or all of that. And one of the people
Speaker 1: I've been speaking to is a doctor who performs euthanasia
Speaker 1: on otherwise physically healthy people with mental illness who no
Speaker 1: longer want to be around. And he's a brilliant doctor,
Speaker 1: and he's under a lot of investigation for what he's doing.
Speaker 1: But I do not disagree at all. I know many
Speaker 1: people do, but I think that ultimately this is the
Speaker 1: same question about control over women's bodies. Is having control
Speaker 1: over when you live and die should be something that
Speaker 1: we each have over our own selves, just.
Speaker 4: Like women should, I think.
Speaker 1: And this doctor I was asking him if anything had
Speaker 1: ever given him pause, and he said the only thing
Speaker 1: that had was this man whose wife was about to
Speaker 1: be euthanized, who said to the doctor as she was dying,
Speaker 1: what if in the next world she's feeling the same things,
Speaker 1: but she's left all of us. So my question that
Speaker 1: I want answered is what happens next. Should we be
Speaker 1: running towards that field, or should we terry a bit
Speaker 1: the way.
Speaker 2: Should we make another movie and do another ten thousand steps,
Speaker 2: or should I im in the field and Russell Crowe
Speaker 2: wafting his hand along the golden ears of corn or
Speaker 2: wheat or whatever.
Speaker 3: The fuck it was?
Speaker 2: I feel you let me tell you, it's probably the
Speaker 2: number one question that people want to know. But that
Speaker 2: was the most brilliant, dark, amazing answer.
Speaker 3: You brought into play. Like I didn't even know.
Speaker 2: I knew that there were like pods in Switzerland, but
Speaker 2: I guess I've only ever thought of that with people
Speaker 2: who have like diagnoses of like Parkinson's or als or cancer.
Speaker 2: And I think it's heartbreaking for me to think that
Speaker 2: people would be suffering so terribly with their mental health
Speaker 2: they would want to end their life. There was a
Speaker 2: lot in that, but ultimately I agree with you. I
Speaker 2: would love to know we're gonna know this ends with
Speaker 2: all of us dying, Like right, it has the same ending.
Speaker 2: I wonder how it actually would affect our lives.
Speaker 4: If we need, we need totally.
Speaker 3: I probably eat a lot more.
Speaker 1: It would probably just mean better to know. It's like,
Speaker 1: you know, after the election, it's like, well.
Speaker 3: Now we know, now we know what we're staring.
Speaker 1: It's like getting a diagnosis. Now we know it's the
Speaker 1: unknown of it. Knowledge is power and the unknown is
Speaker 1: an unending loop of just and also that without having
Speaker 1: the unending loop, maybe we'd be I don't know.
Speaker 4: I guess the answer is.
Speaker 3: I think it's all we're left with. We have to
Speaker 3: cozy up to the unknown because we're most like we're
Speaker 3: not going to find out. Yeah, I will tell you briefly.
Speaker 2: I did a performance in a theater with hundreds and
Speaker 2: hundreds and hundreds of people of this play called White Rabbit,
Speaker 2: Red Rabbit. And it is a play by this amazing
Speaker 2: playwright called Nasim Sulamanpour and he is an Iranian playwright
Speaker 2: who is not allowed to leave Iran, and he has
Speaker 2: essentially sent.
Speaker 3: His play out into the world.
Speaker 2: And here's the kicker. You perform the play sight unseen.
Speaker 2: There is an envelope on the chair on the stage
Speaker 2: when you walk on and you undo the envelope and
Speaker 2: you take out the play and you begin to read
Speaker 2: it and it is happening in.
Speaker 3: Real time and you're unknown. Wow it is.
Speaker 2: It was the most extraordinary experience to have to step
Speaker 2: out there into I already know what that's like to
Speaker 2: step out onto a stage and the fear and the
Speaker 2: nerves and everything that goes with it, but to not
Speaker 2: know what is going to happen next. And it reminded
Speaker 2: me of being a kid where every day when my
Speaker 2: mum would like slam the door in the summer and
Speaker 2: be like through.
Speaker 3: The letterbox, come back when it's dark.
Speaker 2: The possibility of anything and everything happened now was all
Speaker 2: present at the same time. And the crazy thing was,
Speaker 2: or the amazing thing was it drowned out the fear
Speaker 2: of what will I do because it was happening so
Speaker 2: much in the lowness of now, there wasn't any room
Speaker 2: the theor actually was subordinate to the now. Yes, fucking cool.
Speaker 2: Oh god, that's so cool. But anyway, I wonder if
Speaker 2: our unknown as being more comfortable with the unknown, maybe
Speaker 2: that is like something we can all look at and
Speaker 2: think about and do in our lives.
Speaker 4: One hundred percent.
Speaker 1: And what you just said was really it was really
Speaker 1: helpful because it also is something that I can relate to,
Speaker 1: not the performative ass but the nowness of the way
Speaker 1: that you just said.
Speaker 4: That was so helpful to me, So like, good, Yeah.
Speaker 3: That's good.
Speaker 2: I only ever say the stuff that I need to
Speaker 2: listen to or learn.
Speaker 1: I think that's the most divinely helpful stuff is the
Speaker 1: stuff we tell ourselves that we feel comfortable enough to
Speaker 1: share with others. I think that's the path to healing.
Speaker 1: And I really deeply appreciate you saying.
Speaker 5: That, hey, wow, good right next one.
Speaker 3: What would be your last meal?
Speaker 4: Okay, that's easy ish.
Speaker 1: I think sushi is my favorite thing, like a really
Speaker 1: sensational oh ma case of just the most beautiful fish
Speaker 1: and just like in a really like clean and cozy,
Speaker 1: subterranean restaurant.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I love Okay, there's a lot to
Speaker 2: n Why do you want it to be subterranean?
Speaker 1: I like the sort of like secret of dining spots
Speaker 1: that aren't like the hipster dining spots. I used to
Speaker 1: when I was in my twenties in the city, I
Speaker 1: would conserve my entire week's paycheck just to have one
Speaker 1: sushi lunch where all the Japanese businessmen went in the
Speaker 1: forties and midtown during the day, and I would be
Speaker 1: the only like twenty four year old girl like reading
Speaker 1: like a copy of The New Yorker while like getting
Speaker 1: search and but like checking the price because it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: I don't have a corporate card, so I just this
Speaker 1: is insane.
Speaker 4: But the subterranean part, I don't know. I like when
Speaker 4: things are under ground. I like sub.
Speaker 3: I like like sub.
Speaker 4: I like sub.
Speaker 2: I like that sub is cozy. Yeah, as opposed to claustrophobic.
Speaker 2: That's very interesting. I'm going to write that down.
Speaker 3: Sub is cozy.
Speaker 2: You might think about getting that needle point on a
Speaker 2: pillow t shirt. I might even make that for you, Lisa,
Speaker 2: sub is cozy?
Speaker 3: So hard.
Speaker 2: Also, just because you mentioned that you might be.
Speaker 1: O c D.
Speaker 2: Yes, I've always thought that sushi is the perfect food
Speaker 2: for someone who is OCD because it is so just
Speaker 2: painfully beautifully arranged and symmetrical and even and organized.
Speaker 3: Is that part of why you love it? Do you think?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 1: But until you have said it, I would never have
Speaker 1: made that connection. But absolutely, it's a stunning connection.
Speaker 2: It's an organized, sub cozy, totally fish first.
Speaker 1: Wow, I feel like you understand me so well. It's
Speaker 1: just like, does everybody feel the way with you?
Speaker 2: I don't think so. I don't think so.
Speaker 4: All.
Speaker 2: There's a few people I'd like you to call. Actually,
Speaker 2: on my behalf, I bet you not understanding fifty P
Speaker 2: face because if you things I've learned while talking to her.
Speaker 3: She is everything. Did you tell her what your favorite
Speaker 3: food was? She would make it feel so much better?
Speaker 4: Exactly.
Speaker 3: I love that that's your last meal, all right?
Speaker 2: We've arrived here at our last question, which feels really
Speaker 2: strange and like too soon.
Speaker 3: In your life.
Speaker 2: Can you tell me about something that has grown out
Speaker 2: of a personal disaster.
Speaker 1: I suppose what my husband and I say a lot
Speaker 1: is that if my dad were still alive, he would
Speaker 1: convinced me.
Speaker 4: Not to marry my husband.
Speaker 1: And so he says, at the very least, because your
Speaker 1: dad died, you were able to get to me, because
Speaker 1: he wouldn't have let you.
Speaker 2: I mean, Michael, the first of all, your husband's so dark,
Speaker 2: that's so funny.
Speaker 3: Is that true?
Speaker 1: I think it is, Like I think my mom would
Speaker 1: have loved him and said that like he was the
Speaker 1: better half, and my dad should have liked him but
Speaker 1: would have been too suspicious of his differences, because like
Speaker 1: my dad was severe OCD and this is severe ADHD, which,
Speaker 1: unless you are like reading a manual, you're just like,
Speaker 1: why is.
Speaker 4: This person's just fucking asshole?
Speaker 1: Like if you have an entirely different disease, you're just
Speaker 1: like you're an asshole, and the person's like, I'm not.
Speaker 4: I just have the same problems you do.
Speaker 1: They're just over here, and it's like you know, so
Speaker 1: I know because I'm unable to recognize his disorders in
Speaker 1: favor of mine. That my father, who also had OCD
Speaker 1: and was similar to me and controlling and all of that,
Speaker 1: would have had similar issues with him.
Speaker 3: God, that's so interesting. Wait, what's your daughter like? She's
Speaker 3: a wild You didn't talk about her.
Speaker 4: She's a wild beast.
Speaker 1: We were doing this thing the other night where I
Speaker 1: was just like, all I do is talk about feelings.
Speaker 1: All I do is and I feel like I have
Speaker 1: an avoidant child, like my avoidant husband, and I'm just like,
Speaker 1: oh my god. So like the other day, we're in
Speaker 1: bed and you know, we're like reading and she'll say
Speaker 1: something like roundbreaking, like so and so said this to
Speaker 1: me and it made me feel blah blah blah. And
Speaker 1: then she'll just stop. And then she's like, wait, can
Speaker 1: we read Babysitters Club? And I'm like, wait, you just
Speaker 1: said something explosive we need to talk about. She's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm done.
Speaker 4: I got it out. And I'm like, but you didn't
Speaker 4: get it out.
Speaker 1: You said something and it was like explosive, and now
Speaker 1: we used to talk about it and she was like, Mom,
Speaker 1: I'm done, I got it out.
Speaker 4: We're done. We can close that up put it away,
Speaker 4: and I was like, you can't. And then she's like,
Speaker 4: tell me a story.
Speaker 1: So I was like fine, and then I was like,
Speaker 1: in a dark wood behind you know the stories kids love,
Speaker 1: in a dark coffin, there's a dark locket. In the
Speaker 1: dark locket, are your feelings boxes? Feelings are there? And
Speaker 1: she started laughing hysterically.
Speaker 4: And I'm like, oh my god, you're laughing because that's
Speaker 4: really what's going on.
Speaker 1: Like I'm never going to be able to get in
Speaker 1: there either, another box that I must spend the rest
Speaker 1: of my life trying to crawl into.
Speaker 3: I don't want to, Oh my god. But at least
Speaker 3: sub is cozy.
Speaker 2: So you're spending time underground looking through in the box
Speaker 2: in the locket, in the box in the lock you
Speaker 2: will enjoy.
Speaker 1: I swear to god, I don't know that I've ever
Speaker 1: felt more understood, like at all. And like I said,
Speaker 1: I feel like when people come over and see our
Speaker 1: dog and they're like so much, and it's like that
Speaker 1: dog acts like that with everybody. I feel like a
Speaker 1: little bit that way.
Speaker 4: Now I'm like, oh my god, Mini is really get
Speaker 4: to me.
Speaker 3: Everybody.
Speaker 2: It's because I love you, and I think I know
Speaker 2: you because of reading your books, and.
Speaker 3: Also you're just wonderful.
Speaker 2: You're wonderful, like you're wonderful to talk to, and your
Speaker 2: books change the way people feel, and they are comforting
Speaker 2: and they are the best companion. I've had them on
Speaker 2: many hard journeys. And it's really cool to be able
Speaker 2: to sit and talk and you're so generous to talk
Speaker 2: about painful things and things that we traditionally don't talk about.
Speaker 2: You know what's cool is like maybe your daughter will
Speaker 2: listen to this one day, and like you are just
Speaker 2: demonstrating what it is to investigate.
Speaker 3: It's good for all of us to do that. So
Speaker 3: thank you so much. You're amazing.
Speaker 4: I think you so much. Truly, You're welcome.
Speaker 3: You're very welcome.
Speaker 2: Mini Questions is hosted and written by Me, Mini Driver
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Me and Aaron Kaufman, with production support
Speaker 2: from Jennifer Bassett, Zoe Denkler, and Ali Perry.
Speaker 3: The theme music is also by Me.
Speaker 2: And additional music by Aaron Kaufman. Special thanks to Jim
Speaker 2: Nikolay Addison, O'Day, Henry Driver, Lisa Castella, Anik Oppenheim, A,
Speaker 2: Nick Muller, and a net Wolfe.
Speaker 3: A w kPr, Will
Speaker 2: Pearson, Nikki Itoor, Morgan Lavoy and Mangesh had Tiggadore