WEBVTT - From the Vault: When We Think About Cyborgs 0:00:05.760 --> 0:00:07.720 Hey, welcome to stuff to blow your mind. My name 0:00:07.760 --> 0:00:10.520 is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it is 0:00:10.640 --> 0:00:14.040 vault time. We shall enter. The door hangs open, the 0:00:14.120 --> 0:00:17.760 void calls, Uh, what have we got today, Robert? Oh? Well, 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:20.960 this this week we have cyborgs. This is an episode 0:00:20.960 --> 0:00:25.840 that I did with Christian back in April nineteen to 0:00:25.840 --> 0:00:29.479 be specific. And yeah, it's a fun discussion of just this, 0:00:30.000 --> 0:00:32.760 this kind of a morphous idea of cyborgs, right, because 0:00:32.800 --> 0:00:35.839 we all we all have our favorite, right the movie 0:00:35.840 --> 0:00:39.520 Cyborg Albert Hyoune movie Cyborg with Jean Claude van Dam. Yes, 0:00:39.520 --> 0:00:41.760 clearly that's everybody's favorite. But then also a few other, 0:00:41.920 --> 0:00:44.960 you know, small independent films like like RoboCop and the 0:00:45.159 --> 0:00:49.360 Terminator films, you know, um, and and also by mentioning that, 0:00:49.520 --> 0:00:51.640 I mean some of you are already probably arguing in 0:00:51.680 --> 0:00:54.520 your mind and making well with RoboCop really a cyborg 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:56.840 or was he just a robot that they put a 0:00:56.880 --> 0:00:59.600 face on as a testament to a fallen cop. Do 0:00:59.800 --> 0:01:02.800 you you and our seemed colleague Christian Sega address these 0:01:02.880 --> 0:01:05.920 questions in the episode, Yeah, a little bit, because ultimately 0:01:06.160 --> 0:01:08.480 it is kind of an amorphous Torrent term this, this 0:01:08.600 --> 0:01:11.160 term cyborgs. So we talked about like where it came from, 0:01:11.319 --> 0:01:15.440 like some of its origins in our considerations of of 0:01:15.520 --> 0:01:20.520 travel beyond our planet, of of changing astronauts uh to 0:01:21.000 --> 0:01:24.959 better uh survive the harsh conditions of outer space, as 0:01:24.959 --> 0:01:27.640 well as how the the idea of of of the 0:01:27.640 --> 0:01:30.319 cyborg has been taken up as as kind of a 0:01:30.319 --> 0:01:33.800 metaphor for say, feminist identity. Oh interesting, I don't think 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:35.760 I've ever heard of it that way that. Now I 0:01:35.760 --> 0:01:37.760 feel like I gotta listen to this. Yeah, well I 0:01:37.800 --> 0:01:40.119 figure out what you guys talked about. Well, yeah, let's 0:01:40.200 --> 0:01:43.200 let's do let's all dive in and explore the world 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:49.760 of cyborgs. Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from 0:01:49.760 --> 0:01:59.160 how Stuff Works dot com. Hey you, welcome to Stuff 0:01:59.200 --> 0:02:00.920 to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Brown and 0:02:01.000 --> 0:02:07.280 I am Christian Sager. So Robert sideboard the words cyborg. 0:02:07.320 --> 0:02:09.800 Do you hear that? What does it mean to you? 0:02:09.880 --> 0:02:13.200 What is it? What pops up immediately? Well, you know, 0:02:13.680 --> 0:02:15.840 it kind of depends on how far back in my 0:02:15.880 --> 0:02:18.560 own timeline I go like, I can't help but instantly 0:02:18.560 --> 0:02:22.600 go back to being a kid where Cyborg meant terminator, 0:02:22.680 --> 0:02:25.680 cyborg meant RoboCop. And so you and I are both 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:28.720 children of the eighties, and that's what cyborgs were at 0:02:28.720 --> 0:02:32.080 their height of popularity, probably right. Yeah, this idea that like, 0:02:32.120 --> 0:02:34.800 there's a machine, but it's it's got at least a 0:02:34.800 --> 0:02:38.239 little bit of humanity to it, but nothing, nothing was 0:02:38.240 --> 0:02:40.280 going to hold it back too much from being like 0:02:40.360 --> 0:02:43.320 a you know, a terrorizing robot or this this this 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:48.280 brutal metal badass. Yeah, I and I tease this a 0:02:48.280 --> 0:02:51.480 little bit on social media, but for me, I immediately 0:02:51.560 --> 0:02:56.560 go to a comic book character named Cyborg and it's 0:02:56.960 --> 0:03:00.000 a character that it was first created in the seven 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:02.680 these and that's you know, seventies eighties, that's when I 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:07.400 was reading these comic books. Uh. He is an African 0:03:07.440 --> 0:03:11.040 American character who becomes a cyborg because he's in some 0:03:11.120 --> 0:03:13.800 kind of like athletic accident or a car accident or something, 0:03:13.840 --> 0:03:16.760 and his dad is like a cyber next genius and 0:03:17.240 --> 0:03:20.120 rebuilds his body and he becomes a superhero joins the 0:03:20.120 --> 0:03:22.160 Teen Titans. A lot of people out there may know 0:03:22.280 --> 0:03:25.160 this character from the Teen Titans cartoon show in the 0:03:25.240 --> 0:03:28.840 last decade. Yeah, my nephew was telling me all about Cyborg. 0:03:29.480 --> 0:03:31.919 I was hanging out with him in the past few months, 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:34.080 and it was kind of I was impressed because it 0:03:34.120 --> 0:03:35.920 sounds like Teen Titans has done a good job of 0:03:35.920 --> 0:03:39.640 sort of giving a thoughtful treatment of Cyborg, Like what 0:03:39.680 --> 0:03:41.680 does it mean that this character is a little bit 0:03:41.960 --> 0:03:46.440 machine and a little bit human. It's kind of I mean, 0:03:46.440 --> 0:03:50.040 the cartoon is more of a comedy, but so the 0:03:50.360 --> 0:03:51.960 caveat they wanted to place on this is, you know, 0:03:52.080 --> 0:03:56.360 d C is rolling out its big summer blockbuster universe 0:03:56.360 --> 0:03:59.000 of superhero movies, and Cyborg is going to have his 0:03:59.040 --> 0:04:00.800 own movie, and he's going to be in the Justice 0:04:00.840 --> 0:04:03.000 League movies. And I haven't seen it, but I guess 0:04:03.000 --> 0:04:07.160 that Batman v. Superman movie spoilers like hints at him 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:11.280 in somewhere. Uh So I kept thinking, as we were 0:04:11.280 --> 0:04:13.080 doing the research for this episode, which if you guys 0:04:13.120 --> 0:04:16.120 out there haven't guessed by now, is about cyborgs uh, 0:04:16.920 --> 0:04:19.680 I kept thinking, you know, the people who are writing 0:04:19.839 --> 0:04:22.839 and doing all the preproduction on that Cyborg tent pole 0:04:22.920 --> 0:04:25.000 movie right now, I really hope they listen to this 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:28.240 episode because we've got a lot of interesting themes going 0:04:28.279 --> 0:04:31.920 on here with the idea of cyborgs in general, and 0:04:31.920 --> 0:04:36.440 and that is what this episode is going to revolve around. Now, 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:39.200 certainly we've had episodes in the past that have dealt 0:04:39.240 --> 0:04:42.320 with sort of like mind machine interfaces, including Joe and 0:04:42.360 --> 0:04:44.080 I did one in the past few months. I'll make 0:04:44.080 --> 0:04:45.479 sure we linked to that on the landing page for 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:48.719 this episode, and it will be doing episodes in the future. 0:04:48.760 --> 0:04:53.120 I'm sure about cybernetic enhancements, prosthetic limbs, etcetera. But this 0:04:53.160 --> 0:04:56.880 episode is, as the title implies, it's about what do 0:04:56.960 --> 0:04:59.800 we think about when we think about cybords. What is 0:04:59.839 --> 0:05:02.400 the the meaning of cyborg as a word and as 0:05:02.440 --> 0:05:07.200 a trope and as a metaphor for understanding the human experience. Yeah, 0:05:07.240 --> 0:05:09.880 and what I especially got out of it is that 0:05:10.560 --> 0:05:14.800 cyborg in general, there's a lot of philosophical arguments to 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:19.119 make that we're already cyborgs, and that it is sort 0:05:19.160 --> 0:05:23.480 of like the natural evolution towards trans humanism, which is 0:05:23.520 --> 0:05:26.400 another thing we talked about on this show quite a bit. Uh. 0:05:26.400 --> 0:05:28.719 And I want to read a quote by Donna Harroway, 0:05:28.760 --> 0:05:31.320 who we're going to talk about later, but this really 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:33.440 struck me as being crucial to us kind of thinking 0:05:33.440 --> 0:05:37.160 throughout the episode about she says technology is not neutral. 0:05:37.760 --> 0:05:40.440 We are inside of what we make, and it is 0:05:40.480 --> 0:05:43.560 inside of us. We're living in a world of connections, 0:05:43.680 --> 0:05:47.680 and it matters which ones get made and unmade. So 0:05:47.720 --> 0:05:51.440 she's not just talking about like, you know, pop sci fi, 0:05:51.480 --> 0:05:54.719 you plug a USB poured into your ear, cyborg, that 0:05:54.839 --> 0:05:58.440 kind of connection. She's talking about like cultural connections as well, 0:05:58.480 --> 0:06:03.160 and sort of how we fine reality based on that. Yeah, 0:06:03.160 --> 0:06:05.680 so I think that that is just in general, let's 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:07.880 try to hold onto that while we're talking about all 0:06:07.920 --> 0:06:10.960 this stuff you two out there. Yeah, Now that doesn't mean, 0:06:11.040 --> 0:06:13.040 you know, cast aside your sci fi ideas as well, 0:06:13.240 --> 0:06:16.120 because a helpful Yeah, I think she even I can't 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:18.800 remember she if she mentioned RoboCop in her money, And 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:21.520 she definitely mentions some of the sci fi visions of 0:06:21.520 --> 0:06:24.320 cyborg because that's part of the metaphor. And we will, 0:06:24.760 --> 0:06:27.440 you know, if we haven't thoroughly satiated your pop culture 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:30.479 cyborg references, will make some more throughout the episode. But 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:33.800 there's too many, I think, maybe to get them all. Yeah, Yeah, 0:06:33.800 --> 0:06:36.479 they're just they're rampant, especially in the wake of Terminator 0:06:36.480 --> 0:06:39.480 and RoboCop. Just just dealing with films alone. There's so 0:06:39.520 --> 0:06:44.120 many fabulously horrible be movies with cyboards and yeah, totally. 0:06:44.240 --> 0:06:48.040 But before we get into the word cyborg and where 0:06:48.040 --> 0:06:51.119 that comes from, uh, let's talk a little bit about cybernetics, 0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:54.600 which one of the core papers here. It comes from 0:06:55.160 --> 0:06:59.920 m T mathematician Norbert Winer, who wrote Cybernetics or cont 0:07:00.120 --> 0:07:04.839 Role and Communication in the Animal and Machine Back And 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:07.200 this is a work that dealt with information theory with 0:07:07.279 --> 0:07:10.720 a focus on feedback and the similarities between a vast 0:07:10.760 --> 0:07:13.880 group of different phenomena from everything from throwing a ball 0:07:14.080 --> 0:07:16.960 to running a company to launching launching a missile. It's 0:07:16.960 --> 0:07:20.640 all about you're doing things, you're getting feedback and that 0:07:20.680 --> 0:07:25.440 allows you to uh for rational control of everything from 0:07:25.440 --> 0:07:29.120 machines to economic systems to communities. Uh and even a 0:07:29.160 --> 0:07:33.560 way to arguably tackle wicked problems. UM. I use the 0:07:33.640 --> 0:07:35.400 term we could problems, but essentially that was kind of 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:37.840 the the area was getting into. Yeah, and I think 0:07:37.880 --> 0:07:41.920 one thing that's important to keep in mind about Winer's research, 0:07:42.080 --> 0:07:44.240 or I guess just it's not really research as much 0:07:44.240 --> 0:07:46.960 as just sort of like a general like pitch for 0:07:47.000 --> 0:07:49.760 the future, right, saying like this is a field, this 0:07:49.800 --> 0:07:53.040 is an approach that we can use to advance and 0:07:53.080 --> 0:07:56.600 to understand. He's coming right on the heels of World 0:07:56.600 --> 0:07:59.920 War two. Uh. And he is very much in particular 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:06.280 considering cybernetics systems as being constituted by flows of information. 0:08:07.080 --> 0:08:09.880 And there's a really great article by a woman named 0:08:09.960 --> 0:08:13.080 Catherine Hales uh and she's she's at it, or at 0:08:13.120 --> 0:08:14.800 least this is hosted at u c l A. She 0:08:14.840 --> 0:08:18.280 may not be there anymore but just faculty and uh. 0:08:18.520 --> 0:08:21.920 She's basically looking at like the idea of Winer's like 0:08:22.120 --> 0:08:25.680 version of cyborg ism and how it mixes with sort 0:08:25.720 --> 0:08:29.800 of liberal humanism as well. And she is, my understanding, 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:33.079 maybe not a student of but a disciple of Donna Harroway, 0:08:33.120 --> 0:08:36.679 who we're going to talk about extensively later. Um. But basically, 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:40.319 the Winer version goes like this, right, and we're we're 0:08:40.320 --> 0:08:43.160 gonna use this analogy a lot. I think if a 0:08:43.200 --> 0:08:46.719 blind man is using a cane, is he a cyborg? 0:08:47.720 --> 0:08:51.560 And the Winer argument would say yes, because it's about 0:08:51.600 --> 0:08:54.680 the flow of information, right. The flow of information going 0:08:54.720 --> 0:08:57.760 through the cane is building reality for the blind man. 0:08:58.120 --> 0:09:01.000 Therefore it makes him a cyborg. The other argument he 0:09:01.040 --> 0:09:03.720 would probably make is a deaf person using a hearing 0:09:03.720 --> 0:09:06.559 aid cyborg, right, yeah, And that is going to be 0:09:06.600 --> 0:09:09.280 a recurring theme, like to what, to what extent is 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:12.480 this individual cyborg? And I think this strong case to 0:09:12.480 --> 0:09:14.880 be made that, Yeah, when you are even basic tool 0:09:15.040 --> 0:09:18.959 use is cybernetic, it's inherently cybernetic. And when we're inherently 0:09:19.000 --> 0:09:23.800 cybernetic organism, I'm wearing contact lenses right now, that probably 0:09:23.800 --> 0:09:27.360 makes me a cyborg. Yeah, yeah, so, and that also 0:09:27.440 --> 0:09:31.000 involves like dental work. You know, you're wearing a time 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:34.839 piece on your arm, wearable computing, um, and you can 0:09:34.840 --> 0:09:37.880 of course get into this isn't even getting into the smartphone. Yeah, 0:09:37.920 --> 0:09:42.439 the whole smartphone thing is just like mind blowing lee cybernetic. 0:09:43.120 --> 0:09:45.480 I should also throw in that he took the name 0:09:45.559 --> 0:09:50.960 cybernetics from the Greek word kuber mettes, which means steersman. Uh. 0:09:51.000 --> 0:09:52.520 And you can think of just sort of the classic 0:09:52.600 --> 0:09:55.920 image of you know, a helmsman at a boat, um, 0:09:56.040 --> 0:09:58.800 you know, taking the taking the old raft across the 0:09:59.080 --> 0:10:02.160 river sticks. Yeah, that's what I was thinking of immediately. 0:10:02.280 --> 0:10:04.200 Why is that like the first helms when I go 0:10:04.280 --> 0:10:06.360 to his death. Yeah, I mean he's a great helms 0:10:06.400 --> 0:10:09.160 and he has an important because he always gets across. Yeah, 0:10:09.280 --> 0:10:12.480 the Coxswain of the dead. Uh. But is essentially here 0:10:12.760 --> 0:10:15.360 the Steersman is depending on a constant flow of information 0:10:15.720 --> 0:10:20.199 and that governs the interface. So yeah, one of Winer's 0:10:20.240 --> 0:10:23.840 you know, big arguments is uh, and he doesn't I 0:10:23.840 --> 0:10:27.320 don't think maybe make this explicitly, but you know, basically 0:10:27.320 --> 0:10:31.320 it comes across as our cyborgs modifications that are intended 0:10:31.360 --> 0:10:34.479 to compensate for deficiencies. So I just mentioned my contacts 0:10:34.840 --> 0:10:38.880 deficient eyesight, So I wear contacts, right? Or are they 0:10:38.920 --> 0:10:43.920 interventions that are designed to enhance our normal functioning? Right? So? 0:10:44.080 --> 0:10:45.760 I mean I don't know of this, but are there 0:10:45.760 --> 0:10:47.600 a lot of people who wear contact lenses to give 0:10:47.640 --> 0:10:53.040 themselves better than vision? Um, well, it's not necessarily good 0:10:53.040 --> 0:10:56.840 if that happens, because my my eyesight changed and it 0:10:57.040 --> 0:11:02.240 apparently occasionally like eyesight gets like it prove, which throws 0:11:02.280 --> 0:11:04.600 your contacts out of whack. And so that's what happened 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:07.160 to me. So I actually get my prescription taken down 0:11:07.320 --> 0:11:11.360 a little bit. Oh okay, Yeah, well that's interesting. Okay, 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:13.760 so but yeah, so basically we're looking at this a 0:11:13.760 --> 0:11:17.240 is like, is it is it both? I think it is. 0:11:17.280 --> 0:11:20.160 I think it's both. It's both enhancing our our pre 0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:24.320 existing abilities but also compensating for deficiencies that we have. Yeah, 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:26.520 but then there's like a blur somewhere in between, because 0:11:26.520 --> 0:11:28.520 because how do you define deficiency and how do you 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:31.760 define what's like the what is the ideal human experience 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:36.040 that we are either correcting for or going beyond? Uh, Like, 0:11:36.120 --> 0:11:39.440 there's no there's no just a template for the human. 0:11:39.440 --> 0:11:41.840 There's no basic human, right, so that line is just 0:11:41.920 --> 0:11:46.440 always going to be distorted. Yeah, and Harroway who we're 0:11:46.440 --> 0:11:49.160 going to talk about later. It's very important to this. Uh, 0:11:49.360 --> 0:11:53.160 she adds in a distinction that is beyond you know, 0:11:53.200 --> 0:11:56.000 cybernetics is beyond anything that fuses the device with a 0:11:56.080 --> 0:12:02.000 biological organism. It replaces cognition and neural feedback. So it 0:12:02.160 --> 0:12:06.680 challenges the difference between us as humans and us as animals. 0:12:06.679 --> 0:12:09.080 So maybe that's a way that we can draw the 0:12:09.160 --> 0:12:12.720 deficiency enhancement line, although again depends on what animal you're 0:12:12.720 --> 0:12:15.480 comparing yourself. Plenty of examples of animals that use tools, 0:12:15.640 --> 0:12:20.280 including many primates, um crows, Joe and I are discussed 0:12:20.280 --> 0:12:22.760 in recent episodes. So so yeah, even when when you 0:12:22.800 --> 0:12:25.719 start applying tool use to the scenario, you can make 0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:28.440 a case that there are plenty of cybernetical um, you know, 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:31.880 animals out there. Absolutely. Yeah, Yeah, that's something to keep 0:12:31.920 --> 0:12:33.960 in mind as well. It's not just a human phenomenon. 0:12:34.480 --> 0:12:36.760 So the last bit from Hails that I think is 0:12:36.800 --> 0:12:40.480 important to consider when you're looking at Weiner is she 0:12:40.640 --> 0:12:44.880 makes the argument that Weiner is sort of conflicted between 0:12:44.920 --> 0:12:50.280 his uh somewhat humanistic endeavor that Heat envisions for cybernetics 0:12:50.360 --> 0:12:54.240 and his use or proposal of use of them as 0:12:54.320 --> 0:12:57.120 being effective killing machines for the military. So there's a 0:12:57.160 --> 0:13:00.520 little bit of a contradiction there that she points out. 0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:04.120 And again I would say, well, can they be both? 0:13:04.480 --> 0:13:09.440 And clearly the Department of Defense would hope so, because 0:13:09.679 --> 0:13:11.960 as we'll talk about, millions and millions of dollars have 0:13:12.040 --> 0:13:15.679 gone into us developing cyborgs for warfare. Well, it kind 0:13:15.720 --> 0:13:17.080 of gets down to the fact if you were if 0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:21.240 you're going to repair or or augment the human form 0:13:21.320 --> 0:13:24.920 your change, you're also augmenting everything that is human, both 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:27.520 the good stuff and the bad stuff. So so, hey, 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:30.160 a blind man can read a book again perhaps, but 0:13:30.240 --> 0:13:32.880 also maybe a blind man can shoot lasers out of 0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:35.719 his eyes at the enemy. Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:37.520 like a lot of the research that we're seeing that's 0:13:37.520 --> 0:13:40.600 sort of in its infancy with brain computer interfaces. That's 0:13:40.600 --> 0:13:43.360 where it's at right now, right where it's like, we're 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:46.600 developing this so that like maybe a person who's missing 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:49.480 a limb can move a robotic limb with their mind, 0:13:50.400 --> 0:13:53.280 but the application moves on from there. Right there, a 0:13:53.360 --> 0:13:57.200 person with their mind could control a missile or something. Now, 0:13:57.280 --> 0:14:00.360 it's important to note that nowadays very few people call 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:03.240 themselves cyberneticists in the you know, the original sense of 0:14:03.240 --> 0:14:06.440 the word, because cybernetics kind of petered out as a 0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:10.360 scientific discipline for a few different reasons. So it branched 0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:13.880 off into more promising fields of cognitive science and robotics, 0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:17.160 but it also lost on funding. It couldn't deal with 0:14:16.920 --> 0:14:21.480 the ultimate gap between organic and mechanic mechanisms of control 0:14:21.520 --> 0:14:26.520 and communication. And the first cyborg recorded in history was 0:14:26.560 --> 0:14:30.160 a white lab rat that was experimented on at New 0:14:30.240 --> 0:14:33.280 York's Rockland State Hospital in the late fifties. So that's 0:14:33.320 --> 0:14:37.440 a good ten years after Winer's making his proposals. Uh. 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:40.280 And basically it had a tiny osmatic pump that was 0:14:40.320 --> 0:14:45.080 implanted inside its body that injected controlled the controlled doses 0:14:45.120 --> 0:14:47.960 of chemicals into it to sort of regulate its physical systems. 0:14:48.040 --> 0:14:50.040 And of course this is interesting though because it then 0:14:50.040 --> 0:14:52.360 again draws us back to what is a cyborg because 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:55.920 perhaps you could because just mentioning the pharmaceuticals, like the 0:14:55.960 --> 0:14:58.720 first human to take a drug, be it, you know, 0:14:58.760 --> 0:15:01.360 something that the found owned in the woods, or certainly 0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:05.080 are our modern pharmacological world like that is kind of 0:15:05.080 --> 0:15:08.920 inherently cybernetic. You're changing who you are and and creating 0:15:08.920 --> 0:15:12.440 this new, perhaps ideal, idealized version with who you are. 0:15:12.520 --> 0:15:15.960 So I'm on a penny dreadful kick, as as you 0:15:16.000 --> 0:15:17.960 guys out there might know, I've been talking about it 0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:20.720 a lot on the show lately. And Uh, there's this 0:15:20.920 --> 0:15:24.080 great quote where the Victor Frankenstein on the show is 0:15:24.120 --> 0:15:26.800 a drug addict and he's I'm assuming it's heroin or 0:15:26.880 --> 0:15:29.960 some opiate that he's constantly injecting into himself. He gives 0:15:29.960 --> 0:15:32.840 this big speech about why it's okay because basically the 0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:36.320 body is just a bunch of biological and chemiclot chemical processes, 0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:39.960 and all he's doing is either accelerating or decelerating those 0:15:40.000 --> 0:15:45.160 processes with the you know, the narcotics he's applying to himself. 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:47.640 So you could sort of look at drug use in 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:51.240 general as cybernetics, as you're saying, Yeah, indeed, all right 0:15:51.280 --> 0:15:53.520 now at this point in the narrative, we're going to 0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:58.720 fast forward to nineteen sixty. Now important note here this 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:01.040 is a year before Earth to put the first human 0:16:01.080 --> 0:16:04.520 being in space, or more specifically, in Soviet Union, put 0:16:04.560 --> 0:16:07.120 the first thing in space. But yeah, it's especially important 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:09.960 because what we're going to be talking about is a 0:16:10.080 --> 0:16:15.400 paper proposed by Manfred E. Kleines and Nathan S. Klein. 0:16:15.680 --> 0:16:19.200 They have very similar lesson informer with a C ladder 0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:22.600 with a K, and it's called Cyborgs in Space. And 0:16:22.640 --> 0:16:24.120 I know that sounds like it would be a joke, 0:16:24.200 --> 0:16:26.440 but hey, it was in nineteen sixty and they were 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:30.200 pitching a legitimate idea for making space travel easier. Yeah, 0:16:30.240 --> 0:16:34.600 and pitching an overall idea, specific ideas and sort of 0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:38.480 a philosophy of how to approach taking humans into space. 0:16:38.680 --> 0:16:41.160 Because the model that ultimately one out and the model 0:16:41.200 --> 0:16:44.440 we're still using today with put sending humans into space 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:46.800 is like, all right, look at the human being, Look 0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:50.000 at Homo sapiens. This is an organism that is evolved 0:16:50.360 --> 0:16:52.160 not only to live on Earth, but to live in 0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:56.080 a very slim layer of Earth's atmosphere under certain conditions. 0:16:56.280 --> 0:16:58.640 We can't. There's places on Earth where we go and 0:16:58.680 --> 0:17:02.320 we die. Yes, So the vironmental constraints are very important 0:17:02.360 --> 0:17:05.160 for human life. So what we've been doing is we've 0:17:05.160 --> 0:17:08.400 been taking humans and sending them into space in a 0:17:08.480 --> 0:17:11.439 capsualized version of their own environment or as much as 0:17:11.560 --> 0:17:15.480 one as we can manage to try to replicate Earth's environment, 0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:19.199 and take that replication with us. Yeah, it's and in 0:17:19.240 --> 0:17:22.800 a way, it's kind of like I'm gonna move from 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:26.720 Ohio to Florida, but I'm going to make sure that 0:17:26.840 --> 0:17:29.760 i have all I'm bringing Ohio with me, and it's 0:17:29.760 --> 0:17:33.360 going to be like an encapsulated Ohio in Florida. Yeah, 0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:36.320 you dig up like a chunk of Ohio and then 0:17:36.480 --> 0:17:39.560 move it to Florida and plant it there. My thermostat 0:17:39.800 --> 0:17:42.800 is always going to keep things Ohio. Um, so what 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:46.440 clins incline? We're arguing here is that. Well, how about 0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:49.200 we we do the the opposite. How about instead of 0:17:49.320 --> 0:17:52.960 bringing Ohio to Florida, what is as much as is 0:17:53.040 --> 0:17:58.719 humanly possible or or trans humanly possible, you become a Floridian? 0:17:58.960 --> 0:18:01.800 What even to what extent can we take a human, 0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:06.120 send them into space and change the human so that 0:18:06.160 --> 0:18:09.040 they can actually live in space, or at least they 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:15.360 can better manage what is an imperfect representation of Earth's environment. Yeah, 0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:18.320 and what we're getting at here too. And those of 0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:20.280 you out there who are sci fi fans are probably 0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:23.439 well aware of this, But this is a trope that 0:18:23.480 --> 0:18:26.960 has been used in science fiction probably before these guys 0:18:26.960 --> 0:18:30.119 pitched this idea. But but sort of the am I 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:33.359 man or am I machine conundrum and where you know, 0:18:33.400 --> 0:18:36.320 where do I begin? And where does the machine and 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:40.440 kind of thing that we've seen in pop culture fiction 0:18:40.880 --> 0:18:44.480 for decades now, right. But but these guys, what's fascinating 0:18:44.560 --> 0:18:46.280 to me about this is they pitched this whole thing 0:18:46.320 --> 0:18:48.240 about like this is a great way to go to space, 0:18:48.280 --> 0:18:51.080 and there's not one moment where they think about the 0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:53.920 ethical quandary of like what's left over of the human 0:18:53.960 --> 0:18:57.199 being that they're putting all this stuff into well they do, 0:18:57.280 --> 0:18:59.040 and I think part of it is, you know, you 0:18:59.080 --> 0:19:02.000 have to to to bear in mind like the time period, 0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:06.159 you know, because putting humans in space was instill it 0:19:06.240 --> 0:19:12.080 still is a just tremendously difficult endeavor. And they were saying, Hey, 0:19:12.320 --> 0:19:14.360 you want to climb the mountain, Here is a way, 0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:16.520 Here are some possibilities. This is these are some ways 0:19:16.600 --> 0:19:19.520 you can climb the mountain. And you know, it's it's 0:19:19.640 --> 0:19:22.960 very matter of fact. Now granted we've we've steered away 0:19:22.960 --> 0:19:26.080 from from what they outlined, but but you know, I 0:19:26.160 --> 0:19:28.639 still think it's a it's a valid argument. Maybe it's 0:19:28.640 --> 0:19:32.800 an argument that ultimately defeats the idea of sending humans 0:19:32.880 --> 0:19:36.479 into space, Uh, you know, long term, but are they 0:19:36.640 --> 0:19:39.800 human anymore? Right or right cyborg? Or if you're having 0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:42.159 to make all these changes to the human body, like 0:19:42.240 --> 0:19:44.359 does it, then why are you doing it to begin with? 0:19:44.480 --> 0:19:46.400 They're saying that this is a means to an end, 0:19:46.840 --> 0:19:49.119 that if you want humans to go into space, if 0:19:49.119 --> 0:19:53.480 you want us to expand beyond this world, then you 0:19:53.560 --> 0:19:55.320 have to change what humans are. And this is a 0:19:55.400 --> 0:19:58.240 means to an end. Not that we want to become cyborgs, 0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:00.240 but if this is what you want to be, this 0:20:00.359 --> 0:20:03.639 is what you have to Transcending Earth's boundaries are the 0:20:03.680 --> 0:20:05.720 most important thing for us, and we should be willing 0:20:05.760 --> 0:20:09.600 to commit these acts. Um. And the way that they 0:20:09.680 --> 0:20:14.000 start is with a very basic idea, which is respiration, Right, 0:20:14.119 --> 0:20:17.520 we we breathe uh. And they say, well, you know, 0:20:17.920 --> 0:20:20.520 for instance, you wear scuba masks when you go swimming underwater. 0:20:20.640 --> 0:20:23.680 Why wouldn't you you know, change your respiration somehow for 0:20:23.760 --> 0:20:27.600 outer space? Their example or metaphor, I guess, is what 0:20:27.720 --> 0:20:31.840 if a fish was intelligent enough to engineer itself something 0:20:31.880 --> 0:20:34.600 that allowed it to live on land and breathe air. 0:20:35.160 --> 0:20:38.359 And what was fascinating to me about that was, Um, 0:20:38.880 --> 0:20:40.600 I've probably talked about this on the show before, or 0:20:40.600 --> 0:20:43.000 at least talk to you about it. There's this really 0:20:43.240 --> 0:20:48.080 great Japanese manga horror called Geo that's all about fish 0:20:48.160 --> 0:20:51.400 climbing up out of the ocean and they're like strapped 0:20:51.400 --> 0:20:54.480 into these exoskeletons that like keep them alive, and they 0:20:54.560 --> 0:20:58.600 scuttle around and attack people, and it is one of 0:20:58.600 --> 0:21:02.000 the most horrifying images I can ever think of. So 0:21:02.040 --> 0:21:05.159 these guys back in nineteen sixty we're basically pitching that 0:21:05.280 --> 0:21:10.200 saying like, yeah, let's do that, but but to human beings. Yeah, uh, 0:21:10.280 --> 0:21:14.000 And it comes down to efficiency, right, Like these guys 0:21:14.080 --> 0:21:18.720 were ultimately about efficiently getting into space, especially when you consider, 0:21:18.800 --> 0:21:20.920 and we've talked about this before, especially on our Space 0:21:20.920 --> 0:21:25.040 Mirrors episode or or also our episode about space weapons, 0:21:25.440 --> 0:21:28.439 how tremendously expensive it is to propel any mass and 0:21:28.480 --> 0:21:32.120 outer space. Right. And they talk about human fuel as 0:21:32.160 --> 0:21:35.560 being sort of a detriment. And when they say human fuel, 0:21:35.640 --> 0:21:40.239 what they mean is precisely ten pounds per day. And 0:21:40.280 --> 0:21:43.479 that's two pounds of oxygen to breathe, four pounds of 0:21:43.480 --> 0:21:46.920 fluids to drink, and four pounds of food to eat. 0:21:47.480 --> 0:21:49.240 So that's the way that they look at it is 0:21:49.320 --> 0:21:51.399 like the same way that you would look at like, 0:21:51.440 --> 0:21:54.080 well we need fuel for our space shuttle, right, and 0:21:54.119 --> 0:21:55.640 how much that way is and how much it will 0:21:55.680 --> 0:21:59.280 cost to fly that up. They're considering the human fuel. Yeah, 0:21:59.320 --> 0:22:01.920 And it's ultimately like the human engineering problem. It's not 0:22:02.000 --> 0:22:03.919 only the engineering problem of the vessel, but the just 0:22:03.920 --> 0:22:08.720 the engineering problem of the human Yeah, and space. I mean, 0:22:08.760 --> 0:22:10.760 I gotta say, like I wrote an episode for our 0:22:10.840 --> 0:22:13.679 video series brain Stuff one time that was all about 0:22:14.320 --> 0:22:16.400