1 00:00:15,410 --> 00:00:15,890 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:19,610 --> 00:00:23,010 Speaker 2: I'm doctor Laurie Santos and I'm Tim Harford, and this 3 00:00:23,170 --> 00:00:26,250 Speaker 2: is a crossover episode of my podcast The Happiness Lab. 4 00:00:26,450 --> 00:00:30,530 Speaker 1: And my podcast Cautionary Tales. Laurie, it's really great to 5 00:00:30,530 --> 00:00:32,970 Speaker 1: be working with you on a couple of crossover episodes. 6 00:00:32,970 --> 00:00:34,810 Speaker 1: So what did you want to cover on this one? 7 00:00:35,130 --> 00:00:37,890 Speaker 2: I thought it'd be fun to talk about holidays and rest. 8 00:00:38,410 --> 00:00:40,810 Speaker 1: Okay, I'd better warn you that we're all about learning 9 00:00:40,810 --> 00:00:44,250 Speaker 1: from stories of catastrophe on Cautionary Tales, Laurie, So go on, 10 00:00:44,370 --> 00:00:44,930 Speaker 1: do your worst. 11 00:00:45,370 --> 00:00:48,130 Speaker 2: Sure. The Happiness Lab is all about the science of 12 00:00:48,170 --> 00:00:50,330 Speaker 2: happiness and how our minds tend to lie to us 13 00:00:50,370 --> 00:00:52,930 Speaker 2: about the sorts of things that make us happy. And 14 00:00:52,930 --> 00:00:54,970 Speaker 2: one of the biggest ways our lying minds fool us 15 00:00:55,050 --> 00:00:57,570 Speaker 2: is when it comes to our free time. The happiness 16 00:00:57,570 --> 00:00:59,970 Speaker 2: science is super clear about the well being benefits of 17 00:01:00,010 --> 00:01:02,850 Speaker 2: taking a break, but many of us still struggle to 18 00:01:02,890 --> 00:01:05,450 Speaker 2: do that. It's why I pick one day each year 19 00:01:05,530 --> 00:01:08,410 Speaker 2: to surprise the overloaded students in my happiness class at Yell. 20 00:01:09,290 --> 00:01:11,290 Speaker 2: When they arrive at the lecture hall thinking it's time 21 00:01:11,290 --> 00:01:14,290 Speaker 2: for class, they're handed a permission slip telling them surprise, 22 00:01:14,450 --> 00:01:17,010 Speaker 2: today's arrest day, so they need to head off and 23 00:01:17,050 --> 00:01:19,850 Speaker 2: do something fun instead. The students often look a little 24 00:01:19,850 --> 00:01:22,130 Speaker 2: shell shocked when they file out of the hall, but 25 00:01:22,170 --> 00:01:24,690 Speaker 2: many of them report back that they've loved their unexpected 26 00:01:24,730 --> 00:01:27,690 Speaker 2: time off. My students wind up hanging out with friends 27 00:01:27,770 --> 00:01:30,570 Speaker 2: or exploring somewhere new on campus with someone they met 28 00:01:30,610 --> 00:01:33,810 Speaker 2: leaving class. Some of them even say that this unexpected 29 00:01:33,810 --> 00:01:36,730 Speaker 2: time affluence moment was one of their most memorable days 30 00:01:36,730 --> 00:01:39,370 Speaker 2: at Yale. I think I'm teaching these young scholars a 31 00:01:39,450 --> 00:01:43,130 Speaker 2: valuable life lesson, but I've definitely gotten some pushback. Who 32 00:01:43,130 --> 00:01:45,970 Speaker 2: does Laura Santos think she is letting hundreds of students 33 00:01:45,970 --> 00:01:48,490 Speaker 2: skip class? They're paying a lot for their education. 34 00:01:49,690 --> 00:01:52,530 Speaker 1: Well, I think you're very wise, Laurie, But what I'm 35 00:01:52,530 --> 00:01:56,010 Speaker 1: hearing is a story in which they all lived happily 36 00:01:56,250 --> 00:01:59,530 Speaker 1: ever after, and that's not quite how we do things here. 37 00:02:00,210 --> 00:02:27,330 Speaker 1: On Cautionary Tales. 38 00:02:22,730 --> 00:02:25,610 Speaker 2: Tim, you promised me a cautionary tale about holidays and rest. 39 00:02:25,850 --> 00:02:30,050 Speaker 1: Indeed, did you ever hear the sad tale of Saint 40 00:02:30,170 --> 00:02:30,970 Speaker 1: Lubbock's Day? 41 00:02:32,450 --> 00:02:32,810 Speaker 3: Uh? 42 00:02:32,890 --> 00:02:36,090 Speaker 1: No, want to be honest now, had I until recently? 43 00:02:36,490 --> 00:02:39,770 Speaker 1: Saint Lubbock's Day was a jokey name for public holidays 44 00:02:39,810 --> 00:02:43,130 Speaker 1: in the UK. There is no Saint Lubbock. Sir John 45 00:02:43,210 --> 00:02:47,010 Speaker 1: Lubbock was the politician who in the eighteen seventies proposed 46 00:02:47,050 --> 00:02:50,370 Speaker 1: a law closing the banks for four mondays a year 47 00:02:50,730 --> 00:02:54,170 Speaker 1: in spring and summer. He knew that on these bank 48 00:02:54,210 --> 00:02:58,210 Speaker 1: holidays other businesses would probably close too, and if he 49 00:02:58,290 --> 00:03:01,370 Speaker 1: got his way, the British working classes would get an 50 00:03:01,410 --> 00:03:03,050 Speaker 1: extra day off to go to the beach. 51 00:03:03,290 --> 00:03:04,330 Speaker 2: That sounds pretty good to me. 52 00:03:04,890 --> 00:03:07,450 Speaker 1: That sounds great, although of course there were all the 53 00:03:07,490 --> 00:03:12,130 Speaker 1: objections you might expect from commercial interests. Victorian Britain, remember, 54 00:03:12,570 --> 00:03:16,330 Speaker 1: also gave us the character of Ebenezer Scrooge, the man 55 00:03:16,370 --> 00:03:19,730 Speaker 1: who grumbled on Christmas Eve to his hard working employee 56 00:03:19,770 --> 00:03:24,050 Speaker 1: Bob Cratchett. You'll be wanting the whole day off tomorrow, 57 00:03:24,370 --> 00:03:29,050 Speaker 1: I suppose. But the laws passed, the new holidays were introduced, 58 00:03:29,210 --> 00:03:33,370 Speaker 1: and for almost a century all was well. And then 59 00:03:33,930 --> 00:03:39,170 Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty four Lubbock's bank holidays came back to 60 00:03:39,250 --> 00:03:43,290 Speaker 1: bite the British on their backsides. The first bank holiday 61 00:03:43,330 --> 00:03:45,330 Speaker 1: of the year was damp and dismal. 62 00:03:46,210 --> 00:03:48,290 Speaker 2: I mean, is that all that unusual in the UK? 63 00:03:49,290 --> 00:03:52,410 Speaker 1: Not really, Lourie, but On this particular day, the bad 64 00:03:52,450 --> 00:03:57,130 Speaker 1: weather caused trouble in the small coastal town of Clacton 65 00:03:57,170 --> 00:04:01,210 Speaker 1: on Sea. The baby boomers were teenagers then, with money 66 00:04:01,210 --> 00:04:04,490 Speaker 1: in their pockets and some worried no sense of how 67 00:04:04,570 --> 00:04:09,850 Speaker 1: to behave. Unable to sunbathe on the beach, they visitors 68 00:04:09,930 --> 00:04:15,490 Speaker 1: decided instead to fight. The battle lines were sartorial. The 69 00:04:15,570 --> 00:04:19,730 Speaker 1: mop topped suit wearing Italian scooter riding mods took on 70 00:04:19,890 --> 00:04:24,370 Speaker 1: the greasy haired, leather clad bikers the rockers. The clashes 71 00:04:24,450 --> 00:04:27,330 Speaker 1: fed a paranoia amongst grown ups that bed sired a 72 00:04:27,450 --> 00:04:33,250 Speaker 1: generation of hooligans, spoiled, entitled and rebellious, and thanks to 73 00:04:33,290 --> 00:04:37,330 Speaker 1: bank holidays, able to descend en mass to normally genteel 74 00:04:37,450 --> 00:04:44,530 Speaker 1: resort towns to wreak havoc. On subsequent holiday mondays, more 75 00:04:44,610 --> 00:04:50,010 Speaker 1: riots erupted, politicians weighed up rushing through new laws. Were 76 00:04:50,170 --> 00:04:55,810 Speaker 1: detention camps the answer or punishment floggings. The newspapers were 77 00:04:55,890 --> 00:04:59,650 Speaker 1: in little doubt that the nation was only another bank 78 00:04:59,690 --> 00:05:05,730 Speaker 1: holiday away from anarchy. One headline almost reddished the prospect, 79 00:05:06,450 --> 00:05:11,130 Speaker 1: saying the break from work had become a day of terror. 80 00:05:12,250 --> 00:05:15,730 Speaker 1: On the final bank holiday of the summer, police leave 81 00:05:15,930 --> 00:05:20,210 Speaker 1: was canceled. Officers instead gathered by an Air Force base 82 00:05:20,250 --> 00:05:23,770 Speaker 1: outside London, where the Royal Air Force would fly them 83 00:05:23,810 --> 00:05:28,850 Speaker 1: to wherever violence flared next to reinforce the doubtlessly outnumbered 84 00:05:28,890 --> 00:05:29,610 Speaker 1: local police. 85 00:05:30,090 --> 00:05:32,330 Speaker 2: I love this story, Tim, but is there a lesson 86 00:05:32,370 --> 00:05:34,330 Speaker 2: in there about how to lead more fulfilling lives? 87 00:05:35,170 --> 00:05:40,170 Speaker 1: Uh? Not really, it was just this weird moment in history. 88 00:05:40,530 --> 00:05:44,450 Speaker 1: Everybody lost their minds about teenage fashion easters fighting on 89 00:05:44,530 --> 00:05:47,810 Speaker 1: bank holidays, and then everything was fine again. 90 00:05:48,610 --> 00:05:51,330 Speaker 2: In that case, the story might be a cautionary tale, 91 00:05:51,570 --> 00:05:54,210 Speaker 2: but it doesn't really work for the Happiness Lab. Do 92 00:05:54,250 --> 00:05:56,770 Speaker 2: you have any other tales of disaster that actually teach 93 00:05:56,850 --> 00:05:58,890 Speaker 2: us something about being happier and less stressed? 94 00:05:59,650 --> 00:06:03,010 Speaker 1: Yes, Laurie. Let me take you back to a Sunday 95 00:06:03,210 --> 00:06:07,450 Speaker 1: in the nineteen twenties in the Soviet Union. If you 96 00:06:07,570 --> 00:06:11,650 Speaker 1: stand outside a factory, peering through the window or pressing 97 00:06:11,730 --> 00:06:15,410 Speaker 1: your ear to the door, you see nothing and hear nothing. 98 00:06:16,210 --> 00:06:21,050 Speaker 1: The factories are empty, the tools lie idle, The machines, 99 00:06:21,170 --> 00:06:26,130 Speaker 1: what few machines there are, are silent. Sunday is a 100 00:06:26,250 --> 00:06:31,890 Speaker 1: day of rest for everyone. But this won't do. Russia 101 00:06:31,970 --> 00:06:36,490 Speaker 1: had been a backward nation, a poor agricultural economy full 102 00:06:36,530 --> 00:06:41,010 Speaker 1: of illiterate peasants exploited by an inbred nobility. But the 103 00:06:41,050 --> 00:06:45,970 Speaker 1: brave new Soviet Union it needed to industrialize fast. Like 104 00:06:46,010 --> 00:06:50,290 Speaker 1: the British and the Americans, workers were cheap, but machines 105 00:06:50,650 --> 00:06:54,530 Speaker 1: were expensive. To let them gather dust each Sunday just 106 00:06:54,610 --> 00:07:00,170 Speaker 1: seem absurd. Not that anyone wanted to abolish rest days, naturally, 107 00:07:00,250 --> 00:07:05,530 Speaker 1: not the brave Soviet laborer, whose sweat lubricated the wheels 108 00:07:05,570 --> 00:07:09,610 Speaker 1: of industrial progress, must be allowed to regain his from 109 00:07:09,650 --> 00:07:10,410 Speaker 1: time to time. 110 00:07:11,130 --> 00:07:14,730 Speaker 3: So what could be done? 111 00:07:15,570 --> 00:07:20,770 Speaker 1: Enter an economist named Yuri Laren. In May nineteen twenty nine, 112 00:07:21,330 --> 00:07:26,530 Speaker 1: Laren proposed a brilliant, bold, and extremely odd plan to 113 00:07:26,690 --> 00:07:30,890 Speaker 1: reshape the calendar. And since Laren worked for Joseph Stalin, 114 00:07:31,450 --> 00:07:35,930 Speaker 1: that brilliant, bold and extremely odd plan soon became the 115 00:07:35,970 --> 00:07:40,610 Speaker 1: new reality for Soviet workers. When the workers arrived at 116 00:07:40,610 --> 00:07:47,850 Speaker 1: the factory gates, each was handed a slip of colored paper, green, orange, purple, red, 117 00:07:48,090 --> 00:07:52,490 Speaker 1: or yellow. What did the color signify? It signified which 118 00:07:52,570 --> 00:07:55,810 Speaker 1: day off you'd get to take for the rest of 119 00:07:55,850 --> 00:08:01,050 Speaker 1: your working life. September twenty ninth, nineteen twenty nine, was 120 00:08:01,090 --> 00:08:05,490 Speaker 1: scheduled to be the Soviet Union's final Sunday. After that, 121 00:08:06,010 --> 00:08:09,370 Speaker 1: a five day working week, everyone would get a day 122 00:08:09,370 --> 00:08:12,530 Speaker 1: off every five days. The green slip workers would get 123 00:08:12,570 --> 00:08:15,810 Speaker 1: one day off together, the orange slip workers would get another, 124 00:08:15,890 --> 00:08:18,970 Speaker 1: and so on. And of course that meant that on 125 00:08:19,090 --> 00:08:22,850 Speaker 1: any given day, four out of five workers would show 126 00:08:22,930 --> 00:08:26,130 Speaker 1: up for work. The factories and the machines could operate 127 00:08:26,330 --> 00:08:30,130 Speaker 1: three hundred and sixty five days a year. Yuri Laren 128 00:08:30,250 --> 00:08:37,170 Speaker 1: system was named Nepreevka, the continuous workweek. Outside the Soviet Union, 129 00:08:37,530 --> 00:08:44,250 Speaker 1: newspapers published cartoons depicting Saturday and Sunday being shot. 130 00:08:46,770 --> 00:08:49,890 Speaker 2: You can see the appeal of Naprevka, especially to a 131 00:08:49,930 --> 00:08:53,370 Speaker 2: Soviet economist in the nineteen twenties. It seems like a 132 00:08:53,370 --> 00:08:56,650 Speaker 2: great idea, as long as you stick to abstract notions 133 00:08:56,770 --> 00:09:01,570 Speaker 2: and avoid the rather gnarly specifics of real people. Before Napreva, 134 00:09:01,690 --> 00:09:04,930 Speaker 2: Soviet workers would have taken Saturday and Sunday off, but 135 00:09:05,050 --> 00:09:07,930 Speaker 2: many only got to rest on Sundays. Switching to the 136 00:09:07,970 --> 00:09:11,210 Speaker 2: continuous five day week made things more equal and gave 137 00:09:11,290 --> 00:09:14,610 Speaker 2: many workers even more rest days. And continuous work meant 138 00:09:14,650 --> 00:09:18,090 Speaker 2: those valuable machines and factory floors would no longer stand 139 00:09:18,090 --> 00:09:20,610 Speaker 2: idle for days at a time. They could now be 140 00:09:20,770 --> 00:09:24,330 Speaker 2: used all year long. But the problem with the idea 141 00:09:24,370 --> 00:09:26,690 Speaker 2: becomes kind of obvious when you take a second to 142 00:09:26,730 --> 00:09:30,330 Speaker 2: think about real people's lives. If everyone was resting on 143 00:09:30,370 --> 00:09:33,170 Speaker 2: different days, how could a sports team meet to play 144 00:09:33,170 --> 00:09:36,650 Speaker 2: a morning game or acquire get together to sing? What 145 00:09:36,730 --> 00:09:38,930 Speaker 2: if one person was a yellow and their spouse was 146 00:09:38,970 --> 00:09:41,530 Speaker 2: a green. What is there for us to do at 147 00:09:41,530 --> 00:09:44,050 Speaker 2: home if our wives are in the factory, our children 148 00:09:44,130 --> 00:09:47,690 Speaker 2: at school, and nobody can visit us, complained one worker. 149 00:09:48,370 --> 00:09:52,610 Speaker 2: What Indeed, Tim's tale of Niprevka has something important to 150 00:09:52,650 --> 00:09:55,690 Speaker 2: teach us about time off today. Yes, taking time to 151 00:09:55,730 --> 00:09:58,290 Speaker 2: rest and play is important, but it's also just as 152 00:09:58,330 --> 00:10:01,170 Speaker 2: important to make sure you have time off when everyone 153 00:10:01,170 --> 00:10:05,330 Speaker 2: else is resting and playing warring mods and rockers. Notwithstanding, 154 00:10:06,010 --> 00:10:08,290 Speaker 2: these days, we talk a lot about making sure we 155 00:10:08,370 --> 00:10:11,370 Speaker 2: have some meat time, but could we be undervaluing the 156 00:10:11,370 --> 00:10:15,290 Speaker 2: importance of having some wee time. We'll find out when 157 00:10:15,290 --> 00:10:18,490 Speaker 2: the Happiness Lab crossover with Cautionary Tales comes back from 158 00:10:18,530 --> 00:10:19,170 Speaker 2: the break. 159 00:10:26,450 --> 00:10:32,890 Speaker 1: We're back. Yurilarin's Naprevka project seems like a historical curiosity, 160 00:10:33,410 --> 00:10:36,410 Speaker 1: but modern writers have started to pick up on the 161 00:10:36,450 --> 00:10:38,850 Speaker 1: story and to draw lessons from what was one of 162 00:10:38,850 --> 00:10:42,930 Speaker 1: the most extraordinary attempts ever made to reform the calendar. 163 00:10:43,890 --> 00:10:48,730 Speaker 1: Writing in the Atlantic in twenty nineteen, Judith Shulevitz pointed 164 00:10:48,770 --> 00:10:52,330 Speaker 1: to the plight of low income workers who had their 165 00:10:52,370 --> 00:10:56,770 Speaker 1: hours set unpredictably and at short notice by a capricious, 166 00:10:56,810 --> 00:11:00,850 Speaker 1: seeming algorithm. The hours might be too short to pay 167 00:11:00,850 --> 00:11:05,730 Speaker 1: the bills or exhaustingly long, but they might also be 168 00:11:06,130 --> 00:11:12,450 Speaker 1: Neprevka hours, reasonable enough when vs in isolation, but desynchronized. 169 00:11:13,290 --> 00:11:18,250 Speaker 1: This desynchronization makes it impossible for people to socialize with friends, 170 00:11:19,050 --> 00:11:23,210 Speaker 1: to join clubs, or participate in community activities, or even 171 00:11:23,650 --> 00:11:28,850 Speaker 1: to see their own partners. The economist Heather Boushi, in 172 00:11:28,970 --> 00:11:33,810 Speaker 1: her book Finding Time, scrutinizes the plight of these workers. 173 00:11:34,370 --> 00:11:38,330 Speaker 1: Although some people are compensated very well for working unusual hours, 174 00:11:38,690 --> 00:11:41,930 Speaker 1: and others find that those hours fit perfectly with their 175 00:11:41,930 --> 00:11:47,610 Speaker 1: own needs, that's not typical. The majority of workers with 176 00:11:47,690 --> 00:11:52,730 Speaker 1: a non standard schedule are making less money than average. 177 00:11:52,850 --> 00:11:55,410 Speaker 1: They're all so likely to be working in these jobs 178 00:11:55,690 --> 00:11:59,010 Speaker 1: not by preference, but because they couldn't find anything with 179 00:11:59,170 --> 00:12:04,090 Speaker 1: more normal hours, and the experience can be grim. You 180 00:12:04,170 --> 00:12:06,890 Speaker 1: have to show up whenever the boss says to show up, 181 00:12:07,130 --> 00:12:10,850 Speaker 1: often at short notice. If you say you're not available, 182 00:12:11,010 --> 00:12:14,410 Speaker 1: that's a mark against you, and soon enough you might 183 00:12:14,410 --> 00:12:17,970 Speaker 1: find yourself looking for another job. To see an example 184 00:12:18,010 --> 00:12:21,530 Speaker 1: of just how much trouble these capricious schedules can cause, 185 00:12:22,050 --> 00:12:27,890 Speaker 1: let's meet Jeannette Navarro, a Starbucks barrista. Navarro loved being 186 00:12:27,890 --> 00:12:33,370 Speaker 1: a barista. Upbeat, determined, and persistent. Navarro had charmed her 187 00:12:33,410 --> 00:12:36,810 Speaker 1: way into the job, was dealing with a three hour 188 00:12:36,890 --> 00:12:40,130 Speaker 1: commute across San Diego on the bus, and was looking 189 00:12:40,170 --> 00:12:43,850 Speaker 1: to provide some stability for her four year old son, Gavin. 190 00:12:44,330 --> 00:12:48,570 Speaker 1: But the hours at Starbucks just kept changing with just 191 00:12:48,650 --> 00:12:52,650 Speaker 1: a few days notice, thanks to a scheduling algorithm design 192 00:12:52,810 --> 00:12:57,090 Speaker 1: to move staff into precisely the right place at precisely 193 00:12:57,130 --> 00:13:00,930 Speaker 1: the right time. From the point of view of the business. 194 00:13:01,810 --> 00:13:07,690 Speaker 1: Particularly dreaded was cloaping when your shift had you closing 195 00:13:07,730 --> 00:13:11,810 Speaker 1: the Starbucks branch at nine and also opening it the 196 00:13:11,850 --> 00:13:15,730 Speaker 1: next morning just a few hours later. Tiring at the 197 00:13:15,770 --> 00:13:19,850 Speaker 1: best of times, extremely exhausting if you also have a 198 00:13:19,890 --> 00:13:23,970 Speaker 1: long commute, and if you're trying to get childcare both 199 00:13:24,010 --> 00:13:27,850 Speaker 1: for a late night and an early morning a nightmare. 200 00:13:28,650 --> 00:13:32,890 Speaker 1: In a powerful article in New York Times, reporter Jody 201 00:13:32,970 --> 00:13:39,370 Speaker 1: Cantor showed the unpredictable scheduling playing havoc with Jeanette's life. 202 00:13:39,450 --> 00:13:43,170 Speaker 1: She was endlessly trying to find weekend or evening childcare 203 00:13:43,210 --> 00:13:47,170 Speaker 1: for Gavin at short notice, which meant calling in favors 204 00:13:47,290 --> 00:13:51,850 Speaker 1: and putting relationships under strain. Jeanette was living with her aunt, 205 00:13:52,690 --> 00:13:56,010 Speaker 1: but after one too many arguments, she moved in with 206 00:13:56,090 --> 00:14:01,050 Speaker 1: her boyfriend instead. The boyfriend had been supportive, but he 207 00:14:01,130 --> 00:14:05,810 Speaker 1: too lost patience. Jeanette's need for last minute childcare was 208 00:14:05,850 --> 00:14:08,690 Speaker 1: making it impossible for him to realize his own dreams 209 00:14:08,730 --> 00:14:12,170 Speaker 1: of going going back to school. As for Jeannette's hopes 210 00:14:12,170 --> 00:14:15,930 Speaker 1: of completing her own degree, it was simply impossible. 211 00:14:17,010 --> 00:14:19,970 Speaker 2: Canter's piece was published in twenty fourteen. It made a 212 00:14:20,050 --> 00:14:24,370 Speaker 2: huge splash and immediately prompted Starbucks to change its scheduling policy. 213 00:14:24,930 --> 00:14:27,890 Speaker 2: But as Kanter explained in her article, almost every major 214 00:14:27,970 --> 00:14:31,370 Speaker 2: retailer and restaurant chain uses some variant of the same 215 00:14:31,450 --> 00:14:36,490 Speaker 2: scheduling software. Today, low income workers all over the Western 216 00:14:36,530 --> 00:14:40,130 Speaker 2: world are coping with scheduling that's so antisocial it makes 217 00:14:40,210 --> 00:14:45,290 Speaker 2: Nprevka seem positively humane in comparison. But what's even stranger 218 00:14:45,610 --> 00:14:48,090 Speaker 2: is that today there's also a group of privileged people, 219 00:14:48,690 --> 00:14:51,450 Speaker 2: folks with more autonomy over their time than ever before, 220 00:14:52,050 --> 00:14:55,130 Speaker 2: who are somehow managing to inflict a kind of Napreevka 221 00:14:55,250 --> 00:14:55,930 Speaker 2: on themselves. 222 00:14:57,090 --> 00:15:01,010 Speaker 1: Yes, a couple of years after Judith Schulevitz published her 223 00:15:01,050 --> 00:15:05,970 Speaker 1: reflections on Neprevka in The Atlantic, Oliver Berkman's book Four 224 00:15:06,050 --> 00:15:10,050 Speaker 1: Thousand Weeks pointed out that people at the other end 225 00:15:10,090 --> 00:15:13,250 Speaker 1: of the economic ladder might be trapped in an approvaca 226 00:15:13,370 --> 00:15:18,170 Speaker 1: of their own making the hybrid workers, the freelancers, and 227 00:15:18,210 --> 00:15:23,890 Speaker 1: above all the digital nomads of Instagram, possibly people like you, 228 00:15:24,850 --> 00:15:30,530 Speaker 1: certainly people like me. These people all had unprecedented control 229 00:15:30,650 --> 00:15:34,370 Speaker 1: over where and when they worked. They could write code 230 00:15:34,410 --> 00:15:37,850 Speaker 1: in a Bermuda beach cottage, they could handle their emails 231 00:15:37,890 --> 00:15:41,210 Speaker 1: from a summer house near Walden Pond, or on a 232 00:15:41,290 --> 00:15:44,370 Speaker 1: mundane level, they could take a yoga class instead of 233 00:15:44,450 --> 00:15:49,530 Speaker 1: hitting the morning commute. All very pleasant, but, as Berkmann 234 00:15:49,530 --> 00:15:53,890 Speaker 1: pointed out, if you insist on absolute freedom over when 235 00:15:54,050 --> 00:15:58,730 Speaker 1: and where you work, you risk exercising that freedom all 236 00:15:58,730 --> 00:16:02,170 Speaker 1: by yourself. When we all worked nine to five at 237 00:16:02,170 --> 00:16:04,890 Speaker 1: the office. We could all bond together in the canteen, 238 00:16:05,450 --> 00:16:08,290 Speaker 1: meet up for a drink after work on Friday, and 239 00:16:08,330 --> 00:16:11,610 Speaker 1: feel confident that not only would we be free on Sunday, 240 00:16:11,770 --> 00:16:15,370 Speaker 1: but that all our friends would be too. Now our 241 00:16:15,450 --> 00:16:18,890 Speaker 1: schedule is out of step with everyone else's. You can 242 00:16:18,930 --> 00:16:22,370 Speaker 1: do what you want, but good luck finding someone who 243 00:16:22,450 --> 00:16:25,210 Speaker 1: happens to be free to do it with you. But 244 00:16:25,290 --> 00:16:29,130 Speaker 1: maybe that's fine. After all, the digital nomad can dodge 245 00:16:29,210 --> 00:16:34,410 Speaker 1: the lines for everything from the dentist to Disneyland, avoiding 246 00:16:34,490 --> 00:16:39,370 Speaker 1: the rush hour traffic and the peak priced airfares. There's 247 00:16:39,410 --> 00:16:45,450 Speaker 1: a certain luxury in avoiding the crowds. Half a century 248 00:16:45,530 --> 00:16:50,970 Speaker 1: after Yurilarian's Niprevka was introduced, a very different economist in 249 00:16:51,010 --> 00:16:56,650 Speaker 1: a very different setting started musing this question. The economist's 250 00:16:56,730 --> 00:17:02,690 Speaker 1: name was Thomas Shelling. Shelling puzzled over topics ranging from 251 00:17:02,930 --> 00:17:07,010 Speaker 1: how to quit smoking to how to make nuclear deterrence credible. 252 00:17:07,610 --> 00:17:12,730 Speaker 1: Stanley Kubrick asked Shelling for advice before directing Doctor Strangelove, 253 00:17:13,210 --> 00:17:18,610 Speaker 1: a comedy about nuclear armageddon. Shelling was that sort of thinker. 254 00:17:19,610 --> 00:17:22,970 Speaker 1: So what did Shelling have to say about scheduling the weekend. 255 00:17:23,850 --> 00:17:27,610 Speaker 1: Well over the course of the twentieth century, Americans were 256 00:17:27,650 --> 00:17:32,930 Speaker 1: working gradually shorter hours. By the late nineteen seventies, it 257 00:17:33,050 --> 00:17:36,050 Speaker 1: seemed that a four day work week might one day 258 00:17:36,090 --> 00:17:41,050 Speaker 1: be commonplace. Maybe maybe not, said Shelling. But if it 259 00:17:41,130 --> 00:17:46,610 Speaker 1: did become commonplace, here's a question which day off should 260 00:17:46,650 --> 00:17:51,810 Speaker 1: we take? Should everyone take Friday off, or maybe Wednesday? 261 00:17:52,370 --> 00:17:56,090 Speaker 1: Or maybe we should all choose our own day. Let 262 00:17:56,170 --> 00:18:00,370 Speaker 1: me quote from his nineteen seventy eight book Micro Motives 263 00:18:00,770 --> 00:18:05,410 Speaker 1: and Macro Behavior. The day you'd prefer to have off 264 00:18:05,610 --> 00:18:09,130 Speaker 1: may depend on what days other people have off. The 265 00:18:09,130 --> 00:18:12,050 Speaker 1: weekday is great for going to the dentist, unless the 266 00:18:12,130 --> 00:18:15,210 Speaker 1: dentist takes the same day off. Friday is a great 267 00:18:15,250 --> 00:18:18,770 Speaker 1: day to head for the country, avoiding Saturday traffic unless 268 00:18:18,930 --> 00:18:22,330 Speaker 1: everyone has Friday off. Tuesday is no good for going 269 00:18:22,370 --> 00:18:24,930 Speaker 1: to the beach if Wednesday is the day the children 270 00:18:25,050 --> 00:18:28,650 Speaker 1: have no school. Staggered days are great for relieving the 271 00:18:28,690 --> 00:18:32,290 Speaker 1: golf courses and the shopping centers, but it may demoralize 272 00:18:32,370 --> 00:18:35,370 Speaker 1: teachers and classes to have a fifth of the children 273 00:18:35,650 --> 00:18:39,250 Speaker 1: officially absent from school each day of the week, and 274 00:18:39,330 --> 00:18:41,850 Speaker 1: may confuse families if the fourth grader is home on 275 00:18:41,930 --> 00:18:46,410 Speaker 1: Tuesday and the fifth grader on Wednesday, and the children 276 00:18:46,490 --> 00:18:48,770 Speaker 1: cannot very well go to school the day that the 277 00:18:48,770 --> 00:18:51,650 Speaker 1: teacher isn't there, nor can the teacher go to the 278 00:18:51,730 --> 00:18:54,130 Speaker 1: dentist on the day the dentist takes off to go 279 00:18:54,170 --> 00:18:58,770 Speaker 1: to the beach with his children. And in fact, Shelling 280 00:18:58,850 --> 00:19:02,570 Speaker 1: had some of the same concerns as Yuri Laren, even 281 00:19:02,610 --> 00:19:06,130 Speaker 1: though he didn't have the same affection for central planning. 282 00:19:06,930 --> 00:19:09,370 Speaker 1: While the poor workers of the Soviet Union and were 283 00:19:09,450 --> 00:19:13,370 Speaker 1: upset that they all had different rest days, Shelling was 284 00:19:13,370 --> 00:19:17,210 Speaker 1: worried that in an affluent society we might all end 285 00:19:17,330 --> 00:19:21,170 Speaker 1: up taking the same day off, probably Friday, even though 286 00:19:21,210 --> 00:19:24,450 Speaker 1: it would ease congestion if we were able to spread 287 00:19:24,530 --> 00:19:29,010 Speaker 1: those breaks around. Where's Uri Laren when you need him? 288 00:19:29,130 --> 00:19:32,650 Speaker 1: And actually there's some evidence that Shelling had a point. 289 00:19:33,490 --> 00:19:36,970 Speaker 1: After the pandemic, many office workers are working from home 290 00:19:37,050 --> 00:19:40,290 Speaker 1: a couple of days a week, and they're usually choosing 291 00:19:40,490 --> 00:19:45,890 Speaker 1: Friday as the homeworking day rather than say Wednesday, bah 292 00:19:45,930 --> 00:19:46,490 Speaker 1: wait tim. 293 00:19:46,610 --> 00:19:47,570 Speaker 2: Doesn't that make sense? 294 00:19:48,250 --> 00:19:50,530 Speaker 1: Well, in some ways it makes perfect sense, Laurie, but 295 00:19:50,850 --> 00:19:53,930 Speaker 1: Uri Larin would be tearing his hair out. Now we 296 00:19:54,010 --> 00:19:58,730 Speaker 1: have these expensive office blocks, expensive public transit expensive roads, 297 00:19:58,890 --> 00:20:01,890 Speaker 1: and rather than spreading out our use of them, office 298 00:20:01,890 --> 00:20:05,090 Speaker 1: workers are generally coming into work on Wednesday and staying 299 00:20:05,130 --> 00:20:08,290 Speaker 1: home on Friday, which is exactly what Shelling was talking 300 00:20:08,330 --> 00:20:11,490 Speaker 1: about in the nineteen ten seventies. So, Laurie, I have 301 00:20:11,530 --> 00:20:14,410 Speaker 1: a question for you. What does the science of well 302 00:20:14,450 --> 00:20:17,930 Speaker 1: being tell us about taking a break? Should we be 303 00:20:18,010 --> 00:20:20,610 Speaker 1: trying to coordinate with everyone else or is there a 304 00:20:20,610 --> 00:20:24,170 Speaker 1: particular pleasure in taking a vacation while everyone else is 305 00:20:24,210 --> 00:20:24,850 Speaker 1: still at work? 306 00:20:25,370 --> 00:20:25,610 Speaker 3: Well? 307 00:20:25,690 --> 00:20:27,850 Speaker 2: I have lots of thoughts about that, Tim, and you 308 00:20:27,850 --> 00:20:39,010 Speaker 2: can hear all about them after the break. We're back. 309 00:20:39,090 --> 00:20:41,490 Speaker 2: I'm doctor Laurie Santos of the Happiness Lab, and this 310 00:20:41,610 --> 00:20:45,730 Speaker 2: is a crossover episode with Cautionary Tales with Tim Hartford. So, Tim, 311 00:20:45,770 --> 00:20:47,970 Speaker 2: you wanted to know what the evidence tells us about rest, 312 00:20:48,050 --> 00:20:49,370 Speaker 2: holidays and happiness. 313 00:20:49,810 --> 00:20:52,410 Speaker 1: I did. I did, and in particular this idea of 314 00:20:52,690 --> 00:20:54,170 Speaker 1: whether we should all be taking a break at the 315 00:20:54,210 --> 00:20:54,730 Speaker 1: same time. 316 00:20:55,290 --> 00:20:57,770 Speaker 2: Well, sadly, there's not much research on that, but there 317 00:20:57,810 --> 00:21:00,090 Speaker 2: is a little bit. One of my favorite studies on 318 00:21:00,130 --> 00:21:02,810 Speaker 2: this came out of Terry Hartigg's lab. He's a psychologist 319 00:21:02,890 --> 00:21:05,570 Speaker 2: in Sweden and he was super interested in this question 320 00:21:05,610 --> 00:21:08,530 Speaker 2: of whether or not Swedes are happier on holidays when 321 00:21:08,530 --> 00:21:11,610 Speaker 2: everyone's taking a holiday. Swedes is an awesome spot to 322 00:21:11,610 --> 00:21:14,450 Speaker 2: study this because they get five weeks of holiday, something 323 00:21:14,490 --> 00:21:16,610 Speaker 2: that folks like me in the United States would kill for. 324 00:21:17,130 --> 00:21:19,250 Speaker 2: The government allows them to take it whenever they want. 325 00:21:19,290 --> 00:21:21,450 Speaker 2: They're not sort of scheduling it so that people have 326 00:21:21,530 --> 00:21:24,610 Speaker 2: to take it at certain times. And because Sweden's super cold, 327 00:21:24,650 --> 00:21:27,290 Speaker 2: many Swedes tend to take the holidays during the summer months. 328 00:21:27,690 --> 00:21:30,010 Speaker 2: And what's cool about that is that lots of Swedes 329 00:21:30,050 --> 00:21:32,450 Speaker 2: are on holiday at the same time. They're all taking 330 00:21:32,450 --> 00:21:34,970 Speaker 2: their vacation time, like in the same few months together. 331 00:21:35,370 --> 00:21:37,050 Speaker 2: And so Hardig was interested in whether or not that 332 00:21:37,090 --> 00:21:40,050 Speaker 2: affected the Swedes' mental health, and he decided to study 333 00:21:40,090 --> 00:21:43,130 Speaker 2: this using a pretty funny measure. He actually looked at 334 00:21:43,170 --> 00:21:48,530 Speaker 2: the government's distribution of SSRIs, these antidepression medications, during different 335 00:21:48,570 --> 00:21:50,370 Speaker 2: times of the year, and he tried to look at 336 00:21:50,410 --> 00:21:54,410 Speaker 2: the correlation between the release of SSRIs and people's vacation time. 337 00:21:54,810 --> 00:21:55,570 Speaker 1: So what do they find. 338 00:21:56,010 --> 00:21:58,090 Speaker 2: Well, what he found is that there's this huge correlation 339 00:21:58,250 --> 00:22:02,090 Speaker 2: between when people are taking SSRIs and when they're on vacation. Namely, 340 00:22:02,170 --> 00:22:05,650 Speaker 2: they take less SSRIs when they're on vacation. The lowest 341 00:22:05,650 --> 00:22:08,650 Speaker 2: month of SSRI use is during July, when when everyone's 342 00:22:08,690 --> 00:22:12,450 Speaker 2: kind of take holiday, And their interpretation was this idea 343 00:22:12,490 --> 00:22:15,850 Speaker 2: that when everybody's on holiday together that forms this buffer 344 00:22:15,890 --> 00:22:18,330 Speaker 2: against stress. We get a lot of social connection, we 345 00:22:18,370 --> 00:22:19,970 Speaker 2: get to hang out with the people we care about, 346 00:22:20,130 --> 00:22:21,690 Speaker 2: and we're just kind of feeling less depressed. 347 00:22:22,530 --> 00:22:26,930 Speaker 1: It makes sense, of course, you do wander. July in 348 00:22:26,930 --> 00:22:29,770 Speaker 1: Sweden is a lot more pleasant than January in Sweden. 349 00:22:30,130 --> 00:22:32,890 Speaker 1: I'm sure they tried to adjust for that. But I 350 00:22:32,970 --> 00:22:35,210 Speaker 1: wonder whether there are other countries that have lessons to 351 00:22:35,250 --> 00:22:36,050 Speaker 1: teach us as well. 352 00:22:36,370 --> 00:22:38,570 Speaker 2: Yeah, another one of my favorites is the lessons that 353 00:22:38,570 --> 00:22:41,850 Speaker 2: come out of Denmark. Danes have this interesting story where 354 00:22:42,050 --> 00:22:44,890 Speaker 2: over time they've developed this much shorter work week, but 355 00:22:44,930 --> 00:22:47,970 Speaker 2: it's actually pretty recent. It started after World War Two, 356 00:22:48,410 --> 00:22:51,130 Speaker 2: around the time that the Danes were getting more into 357 00:22:51,690 --> 00:22:55,530 Speaker 2: industry rather than agriculture. They actually wanted to employ more people, 358 00:22:55,810 --> 00:22:58,810 Speaker 2: but to do that they had to start employing more women, 359 00:22:59,010 --> 00:23:01,290 Speaker 2: who at least historically were the ones doing a lot 360 00:23:01,370 --> 00:23:05,650 Speaker 2: more of the childcare. And so the Danish government said, okay, okay, 361 00:23:05,930 --> 00:23:08,970 Speaker 2: we'll make the work week much shorter so that women 362 00:23:09,210 --> 00:23:11,810 Speaker 2: and men can get home and do more childcare. Will 363 00:23:11,850 --> 00:23:14,050 Speaker 2: kind of cut off time around four o'clock so everyone 364 00:23:14,050 --> 00:23:16,930 Speaker 2: can go home early. And that led to this really 365 00:23:16,930 --> 00:23:20,410 Speaker 2: interesting situation where the Danes wound up getting more free 366 00:23:20,410 --> 00:23:23,770 Speaker 2: time off, but importantly more free time off when everyone 367 00:23:23,810 --> 00:23:26,370 Speaker 2: else was having the same free time off. Everyone was 368 00:23:26,410 --> 00:23:28,850 Speaker 2: off in the afternoons, and what seemed to happen over 369 00:23:28,890 --> 00:23:31,530 Speaker 2: time is that the Danes wound up taking much more 370 00:23:31,530 --> 00:23:35,170 Speaker 2: time to be social. Historically, Danes have many more social 371 00:23:35,210 --> 00:23:38,330 Speaker 2: clubs and kind of like athletic groups than most other countries, 372 00:23:38,650 --> 00:23:40,170 Speaker 2: and that's in part because they have time to get 373 00:23:40,170 --> 00:23:42,810 Speaker 2: together around four o'clock where everybody's off of work, so 374 00:23:42,890 --> 00:23:44,930 Speaker 2: you can set up your choir, you can set up 375 00:23:44,930 --> 00:23:46,610 Speaker 2: your soccer club, you can kind of hang out with 376 00:23:46,610 --> 00:23:49,290 Speaker 2: one another because everybody has free time at the same time. 377 00:23:50,290 --> 00:23:53,850 Speaker 1: And do we know how happy the Danes are compared 378 00:23:53,890 --> 00:23:56,250 Speaker 1: to other countries if those comparisons make sense. 379 00:23:56,410 --> 00:23:58,490 Speaker 2: Well, the research seems to show that the Danes overall 380 00:23:58,570 --> 00:24:01,010 Speaker 2: are pretty happy. Historically, they're often at the top of 381 00:24:01,050 --> 00:24:04,010 Speaker 2: the so called World Happiness report. Sometimes they get beat 382 00:24:04,050 --> 00:24:06,090 Speaker 2: out by Finland, but most of the time, Denmark is 383 00:24:06,090 --> 00:24:08,530 Speaker 2: pretty high at the top, and many folks have sort 384 00:24:08,570 --> 00:24:10,770 Speaker 2: of looked to Denmark is one of the happiest countries 385 00:24:10,810 --> 00:24:13,250 Speaker 2: in part because of their social practices, So I think 386 00:24:13,250 --> 00:24:15,690 Speaker 2: they might be onto something with this time off together 387 00:24:15,850 --> 00:24:16,690 Speaker 2: sort of situation. 388 00:24:17,810 --> 00:24:21,170 Speaker 1: Yeah, very interesting. Of course, the problem always with this 389 00:24:21,210 --> 00:24:23,490 Speaker 1: sort of thing is that there are all kinds of 390 00:24:23,490 --> 00:24:28,170 Speaker 1: systematic differences between countries, not just their vacation rules, but 391 00:24:28,170 --> 00:24:30,970 Speaker 1: all sorts of other things. So maybe we should be 392 00:24:31,050 --> 00:24:34,450 Speaker 1: looking at companies within the United States that have different 393 00:24:35,170 --> 00:24:39,490 Speaker 1: vacation policies. Your professor at Yale, Laurie, I don't know it. Yale, 394 00:24:39,930 --> 00:24:42,490 Speaker 1: the undergraduates go home for the summer, so you're all 395 00:24:42,570 --> 00:24:44,370 Speaker 1: kind of taking the same kind of break at the 396 00:24:44,410 --> 00:24:47,410 Speaker 1: same moment. And I know different corporations are experimenting with 397 00:24:47,450 --> 00:24:49,970 Speaker 1: this idea of a company holiday. Do we know anything 398 00:24:49,970 --> 00:24:51,010 Speaker 1: about whether that works? 399 00:24:51,490 --> 00:24:52,970 Speaker 2: Well. This is the kind of thing that I think 400 00:24:53,010 --> 00:24:56,290 Speaker 2: economists are looking at a lot more these days. In fact, 401 00:24:56,290 --> 00:24:59,170 Speaker 2: in twenty twenty one was listed as the Year of 402 00:24:59,250 --> 00:25:01,610 Speaker 2: the company wide Vacation. It's the year that many of 403 00:25:01,610 --> 00:25:04,810 Speaker 2: these huge tech companies decided to try and experiment where 404 00:25:04,810 --> 00:25:07,690 Speaker 2: they gave everybody at the company time off together. So 405 00:25:07,730 --> 00:25:10,330 Speaker 2: this was places like LinkedIn and Bumble, a few very 406 00:25:10,330 --> 00:25:14,450 Speaker 2: big healthcare companies, And what people have reported so far 407 00:25:14,610 --> 00:25:18,010 Speaker 2: is that this experiment went pretty well. Employees really like 408 00:25:18,090 --> 00:25:20,850 Speaker 2: the fact that when they're not working, nobody else is working. 409 00:25:20,930 --> 00:25:23,410 Speaker 2: Their boss isn't working, their team isn't working, and that 410 00:25:23,530 --> 00:25:25,570 Speaker 2: means when they get back from holiday, they don't come 411 00:25:25,610 --> 00:25:29,090 Speaker 2: back to you know, a whole inbox flooded with messages 412 00:25:29,090 --> 00:25:30,970 Speaker 2: telling them the stuff that happened when they were out. 413 00:25:31,130 --> 00:25:33,650 Speaker 2: They're not getting these sort of team messages and emails 414 00:25:33,690 --> 00:25:35,970 Speaker 2: while they're on holiday, so there's no real temptation to 415 00:25:36,050 --> 00:25:38,810 Speaker 2: kind of check. And so from the employee's perspective, they 416 00:25:38,890 --> 00:25:41,650 Speaker 2: really liked being off when everybody else at the company 417 00:25:41,690 --> 00:25:42,690 Speaker 2: was off at the same time. 418 00:25:44,490 --> 00:25:47,450 Speaker 1: I really like that. It makes perfect sense, I suppose. 419 00:25:47,490 --> 00:25:49,570 Speaker 1: The other thing about it is that if you are 420 00:25:49,650 --> 00:25:53,450 Speaker 1: going to say everybody in the company is going to 421 00:25:53,450 --> 00:25:57,010 Speaker 1: take the first week of August off, like everybody the 422 00:25:57,050 --> 00:25:59,690 Speaker 1: company really has to plan ahead to make that work, 423 00:26:00,090 --> 00:26:01,690 Speaker 1: whereas if you just say, oh, you know, you can 424 00:26:01,730 --> 00:26:03,970 Speaker 1: take you can take some time off, and everyone can 425 00:26:04,050 --> 00:26:06,170 Speaker 1: just go, oh, well, we'll sort of figure it out, 426 00:26:06,250 --> 00:26:07,970 Speaker 1: and they kind of don't figure it out, And in fact, 427 00:26:08,010 --> 00:26:11,650 Speaker 1: what happens is people in to their email from the 428 00:26:11,650 --> 00:26:13,770 Speaker 1: beach and they don't take a proper holiday and they're 429 00:26:13,770 --> 00:26:16,530 Speaker 1: not doing their job right. So maybe part of what's 430 00:26:16,570 --> 00:26:19,690 Speaker 1: going on here is just this forward planning to actually 431 00:26:19,810 --> 00:26:20,970 Speaker 1: organize to make it work. 432 00:26:22,410 --> 00:26:23,930 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that's a big part of it. I mean, 433 00:26:23,970 --> 00:26:25,650 Speaker 2: I think when you leave and you know that that 434 00:26:25,770 --> 00:26:28,410 Speaker 2: project is done, you know because the final date that 435 00:26:28,450 --> 00:26:30,890 Speaker 2: you submitted it is there. When you know there's no 436 00:26:31,010 --> 00:26:33,810 Speaker 2: chance that somebody really needs you for something, I think 437 00:26:33,850 --> 00:26:35,370 Speaker 2: it means that people can kind of let their hair 438 00:26:35,410 --> 00:26:37,490 Speaker 2: down and relax a lot more. You're not worried that 439 00:26:37,530 --> 00:26:40,690 Speaker 2: something's happening at work that really needs your attention because 440 00:26:40,690 --> 00:26:41,490 Speaker 2: everybody's gone. 441 00:26:42,010 --> 00:26:44,810 Speaker 1: And I suppose this tells us something about this time 442 00:26:44,850 --> 00:26:47,690 Speaker 1: of year as well, that we have in the winter, 443 00:26:48,170 --> 00:26:52,370 Speaker 1: Thanksgiving in the US, Christmas in many parts of the world, 444 00:26:52,570 --> 00:26:56,090 Speaker 1: and these are holidays where part of the point of 445 00:26:56,130 --> 00:26:59,370 Speaker 1: the holiday is everyone's doing it at the same time. 446 00:26:59,650 --> 00:27:02,530 Speaker 1: You know, it's not just a day off or week off. 447 00:27:02,930 --> 00:27:07,210 Speaker 1: It is this shared ritual, this shared experience. I love 448 00:27:07,290 --> 00:27:09,730 Speaker 1: Christmas I know economists are not supposed to really like Christmas. 449 00:27:09,730 --> 00:27:13,210 Speaker 1: I personally, I really I'm really into Christmas. I love it, And. 450 00:27:13,090 --> 00:27:16,290 Speaker 3: It's partly just like everyone's into Christmas. Everyone's doing Christmas 451 00:27:16,370 --> 00:27:18,530 Speaker 3: at the same time, and that's fun. I don't know 452 00:27:18,570 --> 00:27:20,610 Speaker 3: whether there's any research on this. You know, we're all 453 00:27:20,610 --> 00:27:23,130 Speaker 3: trying to do our shopping at the same time, we're 454 00:27:23,130 --> 00:27:25,330 Speaker 3: all trying to book flights to go home for Thanksgiving 455 00:27:25,410 --> 00:27:29,010 Speaker 3: at the same time. That causes a problem, Like I 456 00:27:29,130 --> 00:27:30,210 Speaker 3: kind of feel it's worth it. 457 00:27:31,010 --> 00:27:32,770 Speaker 2: This is a domain where I think it's really hard 458 00:27:32,770 --> 00:27:35,330 Speaker 2: to get at the happiness benefits from taking time off 459 00:27:35,330 --> 00:27:38,850 Speaker 2: together because Christmas is a complicated time for people's mental health, right. 460 00:27:39,050 --> 00:27:41,370 Speaker 2: It's a time when people are processing grief. It's a 461 00:27:41,410 --> 00:27:43,530 Speaker 2: time when we're supposed to be happy. So I'm kind 462 00:27:43,530 --> 00:27:45,890 Speaker 2: of not feeling great. It makes me feel especially bad. 463 00:27:46,090 --> 00:27:48,290 Speaker 2: I love that you love Christmas, team, but Christmas is 464 00:27:48,290 --> 00:27:50,810 Speaker 2: not necessarily one of my favorite holidays. In fact, it's 465 00:27:50,810 --> 00:27:52,490 Speaker 2: one of the times that makes me think that Shelling 466 00:27:52,570 --> 00:27:54,730 Speaker 2: might have been right, that maybe we shouldn't all be 467 00:27:54,770 --> 00:27:57,250 Speaker 2: flying that same week together, especially when it's sort of 468 00:27:57,250 --> 00:27:59,530 Speaker 2: cold and snowy in the US. But maybe that's just me. 469 00:28:00,450 --> 00:28:04,250 Speaker 1: Well, I suppose that one of the overarching conclusions that 470 00:28:04,690 --> 00:28:07,890 Speaker 1: we've got to draw from the research on happiness is 471 00:28:07,930 --> 00:28:11,210 Speaker 1: that there are big individual differences and you can have 472 00:28:11,250 --> 00:28:13,330 Speaker 1: a look at averages and say, oh, this kind of 473 00:28:13,330 --> 00:28:15,810 Speaker 1: thing often makes people happy, but in the end, you 474 00:28:15,890 --> 00:28:18,370 Speaker 1: also have to understand yourself and understand what works for 475 00:28:18,410 --> 00:28:19,250 Speaker 1: you as an individual. 476 00:28:20,210 --> 00:28:22,730 Speaker 2: I think that's exactly right. Although that said, I think 477 00:28:22,770 --> 00:28:25,410 Speaker 2: there are some domains in which we really know there 478 00:28:25,450 --> 00:28:27,370 Speaker 2: are certain kinds of things that, at least based on 479 00:28:27,410 --> 00:28:30,130 Speaker 2: the data, seems to make most people happy. And one 480 00:28:30,170 --> 00:28:32,570 Speaker 2: of the big ones is social connection, right, just feeling 481 00:28:32,610 --> 00:28:34,650 Speaker 2: that you're not exactly that lonely. 482 00:28:35,250 --> 00:28:37,010 Speaker 1: So tell me about that. I see a lot of 483 00:28:37,090 --> 00:28:40,410 Speaker 1: dramatic claims about loneliness. What does the research tell us 484 00:28:40,410 --> 00:28:40,850 Speaker 1: about that? 485 00:28:41,490 --> 00:28:43,810 Speaker 2: Well, some of those dramatic claims is that loneliness is 486 00:28:43,890 --> 00:28:46,930 Speaker 2: really bad for our health. Some folks like the Surgeon 487 00:28:47,010 --> 00:28:50,010 Speaker 2: General and the US have quoted statistics like being lonely 488 00:28:50,090 --> 00:28:53,130 Speaker 2: is as bad as smoking fifteen cigarettes a day, that 489 00:28:53,130 --> 00:28:56,130 Speaker 2: it's twice as risky as obesity for your overall health. 490 00:28:56,410 --> 00:28:58,450 Speaker 2: Some of those claims are a little bit overblown, but 491 00:28:58,490 --> 00:29:01,210 Speaker 2: my sense is that pretty much every available study in 492 00:29:01,250 --> 00:29:04,650 Speaker 2: the field of positive psychology suggests that being social is 493 00:29:04,690 --> 00:29:07,250 Speaker 2: pretty good for your happiness. The more you spend time 494 00:29:07,290 --> 00:29:09,530 Speaker 2: with other people, and the more you spend time, especially 495 00:29:09,530 --> 00:29:12,370 Speaker 2: with people you care about, the happier and more satisfied 496 00:29:12,370 --> 00:29:13,450 Speaker 2: with your life you tend to be. 497 00:29:13,970 --> 00:29:16,410 Speaker 1: I'm really enjoying this conversation, Laurie. I like the fact 498 00:29:16,410 --> 00:29:18,610 Speaker 1: that I can just ask any crazy old question and 499 00:29:18,810 --> 00:29:20,930 Speaker 1: you've got the you've got the action. Let me let 500 00:29:20,930 --> 00:29:21,650 Speaker 1: me throw another one at you. 501 00:29:21,690 --> 00:29:21,890 Speaker 3: Okay. 502 00:29:21,890 --> 00:29:24,610 Speaker 1: So digital nomads, Okay, they can work wherever they like, 503 00:29:24,730 --> 00:29:27,170 Speaker 1: They can work whenever they like. Any clues as to 504 00:29:27,170 --> 00:29:29,290 Speaker 1: whether that's actually good for their mental health or whether 505 00:29:29,330 --> 00:29:30,610 Speaker 1: they're kind of fooling themselves. 506 00:29:31,290 --> 00:29:33,210 Speaker 2: Well, this, too, i think, is another domain where there's 507 00:29:33,250 --> 00:29:35,970 Speaker 2: relatively little work, but the work that's out there suggests 508 00:29:35,970 --> 00:29:38,290 Speaker 2: an interesting conclusion. I think this is some lovely stuff 509 00:29:38,330 --> 00:29:41,570 Speaker 2: by Rog Chowtery at Harvard Business School, and he's been 510 00:29:41,610 --> 00:29:46,130 Speaker 2: making this distinction between working whenever you want versus working 511 00:29:46,210 --> 00:29:49,290 Speaker 2: wherever you want. You know, when we think of digital nomads, 512 00:29:49,330 --> 00:29:51,730 Speaker 2: we think we think often of both together. Right, you know, 513 00:29:51,770 --> 00:29:53,410 Speaker 2: you're off working at a beach and you can do 514 00:29:53,530 --> 00:29:56,490 Speaker 2: so at any time you'd like. But Chowdy is basically 515 00:29:56,490 --> 00:29:58,690 Speaker 2: finding that really the thing that seems to matter for 516 00:29:58,770 --> 00:30:02,970 Speaker 2: happiness is the wherever part, not the whenever part. Why 517 00:30:03,010 --> 00:30:04,890 Speaker 2: is that the case, Well, if you get to choose 518 00:30:04,930 --> 00:30:07,450 Speaker 2: where you want to work, that means you can make 519 00:30:07,490 --> 00:30:09,810 Speaker 2: sure that you're living close to FAMI members or you're 520 00:30:09,810 --> 00:30:12,210 Speaker 2: living close to friends. If you get to choose where 521 00:30:12,250 --> 00:30:14,570 Speaker 2: you work, you can cut down on your commute time. 522 00:30:14,890 --> 00:30:17,130 Speaker 2: Often these days, when people report that they're working from home, 523 00:30:17,130 --> 00:30:19,810 Speaker 2: they're saving on average four point five hours a week 524 00:30:20,090 --> 00:30:22,730 Speaker 2: just in commuting time. And if you then use those 525 00:30:22,770 --> 00:30:24,810 Speaker 2: hours to do something social. You hang out with your kids, 526 00:30:24,930 --> 00:30:26,930 Speaker 2: you hang out with your friends, or maybe you exercise, 527 00:30:27,410 --> 00:30:29,490 Speaker 2: that can be a huge boon for people's well being. 528 00:30:29,570 --> 00:30:31,530 Speaker 2: And so I think when we start to think about 529 00:30:31,530 --> 00:30:34,570 Speaker 2: the benefits of being a digital nomad, we're really thinking 530 00:30:34,650 --> 00:30:37,690 Speaker 2: about location, location, location, and not timing. 531 00:30:39,250 --> 00:30:43,410 Speaker 1: Okay, so let's talk about the control that people have 532 00:30:43,610 --> 00:30:47,530 Speaker 1: over their time the autonomy. One of my favorite psychological 533 00:30:47,570 --> 00:30:51,130 Speaker 1: studies is about office design. Should you have a messy desk, 534 00:30:51,130 --> 00:30:54,810 Speaker 1: a tidy desk, a really minimalist office, or lots of 535 00:30:54,810 --> 00:30:56,930 Speaker 1: pot plants and pictures and so on, and what the 536 00:30:57,050 --> 00:30:59,650 Speaker 1: researchers who did that study found it was basically a trick. 537 00:31:00,170 --> 00:31:03,810 Speaker 1: None of it matters. What matters is whether you feel 538 00:31:03,810 --> 00:31:07,290 Speaker 1: you've got control, so like who actually decides whether that's 539 00:31:07,290 --> 00:31:10,010 Speaker 1: a pot plant. If you get to decide, you feel 540 00:31:10,010 --> 00:31:11,850 Speaker 1: good about the pop plants, and if someone else is 541 00:31:11,850 --> 00:31:14,570 Speaker 1: imposing this pop plant on you, you hate the pop plant. 542 00:31:15,050 --> 00:31:17,930 Speaker 1: So autonomy actually turns out to be much more important 543 00:31:17,970 --> 00:31:20,890 Speaker 1: than the things that we think are important. And I 544 00:31:20,930 --> 00:31:24,170 Speaker 1: couldn't help but think of that study when hearing the 545 00:31:24,210 --> 00:31:28,290 Speaker 1: story of Jeanette Navarro and her absolute lack of control 546 00:31:28,410 --> 00:31:29,730 Speaker 1: over her scheduling. 547 00:31:30,650 --> 00:31:32,650 Speaker 2: Well, the science is pretty clear on this. I mean, 548 00:31:32,690 --> 00:31:34,650 Speaker 2: I think this is really almost like a basic fact 549 00:31:34,730 --> 00:31:38,010 Speaker 2: of human psychology, which is that we like having control 550 00:31:38,170 --> 00:31:41,250 Speaker 2: over what's happening to us, and our perception of control 551 00:31:41,330 --> 00:31:43,570 Speaker 2: seems to matter a lot. Their study is, you know, 552 00:31:43,610 --> 00:31:46,170 Speaker 2: from the nineties and so many different domains, whether it's 553 00:31:46,210 --> 00:31:48,330 Speaker 2: control over what's happening in the workplace, which is what 554 00:31:48,330 --> 00:31:51,290 Speaker 2: we're talking about, but also control over your treatment and 555 00:31:51,370 --> 00:31:55,130 Speaker 2: medical context. Kids control over things in schools makes them 556 00:31:55,130 --> 00:31:58,570 Speaker 2: happier and more productive at schools. Our perceived control seems 557 00:31:58,650 --> 00:32:00,930 Speaker 2: to matter a ton when it comes to both our 558 00:32:00,970 --> 00:32:04,490 Speaker 2: satisfaction but also in some cases our productivity. And I 559 00:32:04,530 --> 00:32:07,170 Speaker 2: think that that's something that bosses and employers need to 560 00:32:07,170 --> 00:32:09,970 Speaker 2: be paying attention to. Just giving people a little bit 561 00:32:10,010 --> 00:32:12,410 Speaker 2: more perceived control isn't just going to make them happier 562 00:32:12,410 --> 00:32:15,330 Speaker 2: and more satisfied, maybe even healthier. It's probably going to 563 00:32:15,330 --> 00:32:17,090 Speaker 2: make them work better and faster too. 564 00:32:18,130 --> 00:32:21,730 Speaker 1: Starbucks and these other companies who are using these scheduling algorithms, 565 00:32:21,730 --> 00:32:25,650 Speaker 1: they're not really thinking through the costs they're imposing on 566 00:32:25,730 --> 00:32:30,330 Speaker 1: their employees. And I wonder now post pandemic labor markets 567 00:32:30,330 --> 00:32:32,290 Speaker 1: are a lot tighter. It's actually quite difficult to get 568 00:32:32,290 --> 00:32:34,250 Speaker 1: people to do a lot of jobs, and companies are 569 00:32:34,250 --> 00:32:36,410 Speaker 1: struggling to figure out how do we recruit people, how 570 00:32:36,450 --> 00:32:39,770 Speaker 1: do we minimize turnover? And I something tells me they're 571 00:32:39,770 --> 00:32:43,010 Speaker 1: going to start to figure this out, that hey, maybe 572 00:32:43,050 --> 00:32:48,530 Speaker 1: our algorithm should take the brunt of interruptions and uncertainties, 573 00:32:48,650 --> 00:32:51,050 Speaker 1: and it shouldn't be the employees, because the company can 574 00:32:51,090 --> 00:32:53,690 Speaker 1: actually absorb those costs more easily than the individuals. 575 00:32:54,370 --> 00:32:57,090 Speaker 2: And I think companies don't realize how beneficial it might 576 00:32:57,130 --> 00:32:59,250 Speaker 2: be just to their bottom line to absorb some of 577 00:32:59,250 --> 00:33:02,810 Speaker 2: those unhappiness costs that come up with unpredictable scheduling. There's 578 00:33:02,810 --> 00:33:04,810 Speaker 2: this lovely paper that came out of the University of 579 00:33:04,850 --> 00:33:08,690 Speaker 2: Oxford from Yon Emmanuel Denev's group that shows that happier 580 00:33:08,730 --> 00:33:11,970 Speaker 2: workers wind up not just being more productive, but companies 581 00:33:12,010 --> 00:33:15,170 Speaker 2: that have happier workers wind up earning more. They're very 582 00:33:15,210 --> 00:33:17,050 Speaker 2: bottom line, you know, how much you know they're kind 583 00:33:17,050 --> 00:33:19,610 Speaker 2: of giving back in the stock market. That winds up 584 00:33:19,730 --> 00:33:22,810 Speaker 2: being determined at least in part by how happy workers are. 585 00:33:23,170 --> 00:33:25,290 Speaker 2: And so I think this is a time when companies 586 00:33:25,290 --> 00:33:27,570 Speaker 2: are going to start paying more attention to the happiness 587 00:33:27,570 --> 00:33:29,890 Speaker 2: of their workers. They're going to start realizing it matters 588 00:33:29,890 --> 00:33:32,010 Speaker 2: for their bottom line. And I think this is something 589 00:33:32,050 --> 00:33:34,250 Speaker 2: that not just companies have to start paying attention to. 590 00:33:34,330 --> 00:33:37,290 Speaker 2: I think governments should also start getting involved in this 591 00:33:37,410 --> 00:33:40,410 Speaker 2: unpredictable scheduling. These days in the US, we have all 592 00:33:40,530 --> 00:33:43,490 Speaker 2: these conversations about minimum wage and making sure people have 593 00:33:43,570 --> 00:33:45,970 Speaker 2: a living wage, but there are studies that show that 594 00:33:46,090 --> 00:33:49,570 Speaker 2: unpredictable hours have a worse impact on mental health than 595 00:33:49,610 --> 00:33:52,530 Speaker 2: low wages. I'd love to see the same conversations that 596 00:33:52,530 --> 00:33:56,730 Speaker 2: are happening about minimum wage, start happening about unpredictable scheduling 597 00:33:56,770 --> 00:33:59,930 Speaker 2: and the mental health costs that comes from that as well. 598 00:33:59,930 --> 00:34:02,770 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Lourie. You have been extremely patient 599 00:34:02,890 --> 00:34:05,890 Speaker 1: with all of my questions about holidays and rest and 600 00:34:06,010 --> 00:34:06,570 Speaker 1: well being. 601 00:34:06,850 --> 00:34:09,050 Speaker 2: But wait, Tim, I still have a question for you. Yeah, 602 00:34:09,090 --> 00:34:10,930 Speaker 2: So what happened to Neprevka in the end? 603 00:34:11,490 --> 00:34:12,050 Speaker 3: Ah? 604 00:34:12,250 --> 00:34:16,010 Speaker 1: Now, that is a good question. It's unclear whether the 605 00:34:16,010 --> 00:34:20,570 Speaker 1: Soviet authorities realized quite how disruptive Nepreevka would be, and 606 00:34:20,650 --> 00:34:22,610 Speaker 1: if they did, it's not clear whether they thought the 607 00:34:22,650 --> 00:34:25,730 Speaker 1: disruption was a bug or a feature, because, after all, 608 00:34:26,250 --> 00:34:30,890 Speaker 1: families were a bourgeois institution. But it wasn't long before 609 00:34:30,930 --> 00:34:34,330 Speaker 1: the problems with the system became overwhelming, and on the 610 00:34:34,450 --> 00:34:38,890 Speaker 1: first of December nineteen thirty one, a sixth day of 611 00:34:38,970 --> 00:34:42,730 Speaker 1: rest common to all was introduced, and in the summer 612 00:34:42,730 --> 00:34:47,050 Speaker 1: of nineteen forty the seven day week, including Sunday, was resurrected. 613 00:34:47,290 --> 00:34:50,210 Speaker 1: So even Stalin could change his mind, and I wonder 614 00:34:50,250 --> 00:34:53,330 Speaker 1: whether we can change ours. Lori Santos, thank you so 615 00:34:53,410 --> 00:34:55,450 Speaker 1: much for joining me, and. 616 00:34:55,370 --> 00:34:56,130 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining me. 617 00:34:56,210 --> 00:34:56,530 Speaker 1: Tom. 618 00:34:56,690 --> 00:34:59,250 Speaker 2: Let's do this again soon. In fact, I have an 619 00:34:59,250 --> 00:35:01,330 Speaker 2: idea I want to discuss with you, and I'm pretty 620 00:35:01,330 --> 00:35:03,690 Speaker 2: sure you probably have a cautionary tale for me on 621 00:35:03,730 --> 00:35:04,570 Speaker 2: the subject. 622 00:35:04,850 --> 00:35:07,930 Speaker 1: Oh, I usually do have a cautionary tale on any subject. 623 00:35:08,410 --> 00:35:11,530 Speaker 1: Dr Lorie sam To hosts The Happiness Lab. 624 00:35:11,490 --> 00:35:15,490 Speaker 2: And Tim Hartford hosts Cautionary Tales. Both podcasts are productions 625 00:35:15,490 --> 00:35:25,930 Speaker 2: of Pushkin Industries and are available wherever you get your podcasts. 626 00:35:31,210 --> 00:35:34,730 Speaker 1: Cautionary Tales is written by me Tim Harford with Andrew Wright. 627 00:35:35,170 --> 00:35:38,490 Speaker 1: It's produced by Alice Fines with support from Marilyn Rust. 628 00:35:38,970 --> 00:35:41,530 Speaker 1: The sound design and original music is the work of 629 00:35:41,570 --> 00:35:46,490 Speaker 1: Pascal Wise. Sarah Nix edited the scripts. It features the 630 00:35:46,530 --> 00:35:50,730 Speaker 1: voice talents of Ben Crowe, Melanie Guttridge, Stella Harford, Jemma 631 00:35:50,810 --> 00:35:54,650 Speaker 1: Saunders and Rufus Wright. The show also wouldn't have been 632 00:35:54,690 --> 00:35:58,690 Speaker 1: possible without the work of Jacob Weisberg, Ryan Dilly, Greta 633 00:35:58,770 --> 00:36:04,890 Speaker 1: Cohnevital Millard, John Schnaz, Eric's handler, Carrie Brody, and Christina Sullivan. 634 00:36:05,650 --> 00:36:10,290 Speaker 1: Cautionary Tales is a production of Pushkin Industries. It's recorded 635 00:36:10,330 --> 00:36:14,050 Speaker 1: at Wardour Studios in London by Tom Berry. If you 636 00:36:14,290 --> 00:36:18,490 Speaker 1: like the show, please remember to share, rate and review, 637 00:36:19,010 --> 00:36:21,170 Speaker 1: tell your friends and if you want to hear the 638 00:36:21,210 --> 00:36:24,690 Speaker 1: show ad free, sign up for Pushkin Plus on the 639 00:36:24,730 --> 00:36:28,770 Speaker 1: show page in Apple Podcasts or at pushkin dot fm, 640 00:36:29,170 --> 00:36:35,770 Speaker 1: slash plus