1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 1: From a cocoa punch and I heart radio. This is 2 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:10,800 Speaker 1: the turning I'm Erica Lance, Part nine, Highway of Broken Glass. 3 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:19,920 Speaker 1: Over the time I've worked on this podcast, one word 4 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 1: has come up again and again. It was like a 5 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:25,760 Speaker 1: cult thing. If you look at the characteristics of cults, 6 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:31,319 Speaker 1: it's like unswerving obedience to a charismatic leader. Check one 7 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:34,599 Speaker 1: doesn't always know where to draw the line between religion 8 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 1: and cult. You're only getting input from one source. You're 9 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:43,279 Speaker 1: oscillated from everyone else. And that's what I mean by 10 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:47,159 Speaker 1: Brian washing, and that's why it sometimes reminds me of 11 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 1: a cult. I tried to leave the word called out 12 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: of conversations with former sisters, or at least not be 13 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 1: the one to bring it up first. My fear was 14 00:00:57,560 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: that once that word was on the table, it would 15 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: say the Sisters retelling of their time in the MCS. 16 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 1: But the comparisons kept coming up, for example, control over media, 17 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:11,479 Speaker 1: how the missionaries of charity are only allowed to read 18 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: books that their mistress assigns to them. He couldn't read 19 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: the newspaper, he had the radio, anything like that. We 20 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 1: weren't supposed to be looking around at anything, really, And 21 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 1: that was called keeping custody of the eyes. Another example, 22 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 1: sisters are cut off from their families and past lives. 23 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:33,400 Speaker 1: I didn't know that I'd only get to write a 24 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 1: letter home once a month. I didn't know that I'd 25 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: only get to visit my family once every ten years. 26 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:41,199 Speaker 1: I had no idea about all of that limited sleep. 27 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 1: I've heard so many sisters mentioned the late nights and 28 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 1: early mornings, always waking at four forty am, which might 29 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 1: impact a person's ability to think critically. Early morning meditation 30 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 1: was a struggle. I was always tired as a missionary 31 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: of charity, and so most of that half hour very off, 32 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: And not always, but very often, it's just a struggle 33 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 1: to stay awake. Sisters were seeing us more holy. If 34 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 1: you needed less sleep, you were strong. You could take 35 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 1: a lot of physical pain and not complain and offer 36 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: it up. There was whether it was conscious or not. 37 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 1: There was a lot of value put on that. And 38 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:20,240 Speaker 1: every day we scrubbed the same patch of floor for 39 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:24,640 Speaker 1: half an hour, and I was exhausted, and I remember 40 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 1: thinking I couldn't used that extra half hour of sleep 41 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 1: instead of scrubbing the same piece of floor that was 42 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 1: clean every morning. Then there's the claim that the MC 43 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: has kept sisters from thinking for themselves. The order was 44 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 1: wired that you had very little time to think, and 45 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:52,079 Speaker 1: the rules a rigid enforcement of rules. Mary Johnson says 46 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: that as she rose through the ranks, she was told 47 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 1: by a superior that she should be more firm with 48 00:02:56,240 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 1: sisters under her. For example, if a sister fell asleep 49 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 1: during meditation, Mary should take the sister to the kitchen, 50 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 1: cut an onion and make the sister put its juice 51 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 1: in her eyes. Do you think you were in a cult? 52 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 1: I think we had could to tendencies. This is my 53 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:18,799 Speaker 1: personal opinion. Obviously, I think to be an occult, the 54 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:23,639 Speaker 1: leader has to have clarity of what they're doing. And 55 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 1: I definitely, unequivocally do not believe that was the purpose. 56 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 1: Like I believe some of the outcomes happened, um, but no, 57 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 1: I definitely that's the That would be the only reason 58 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 1: I wouldn't think we were in a cult. That I 59 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 1: was in a cult. Do I think people who come 60 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 1: out of it need help d programming on some levels? Absolutely? 61 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: Clearly it's complicated. So when people ask me outright, are 62 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 1: the missionaries of charity occult? I don't have an answer. 63 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 1: I'm not exactly sure what a cult is. And I'm 64 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 1: even hesitant to use that word just because it's a 65 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 1: charged word. This is Alan Lance Lesser. She's a producer 66 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 1: on this show, and you might remember she's my sister. 67 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: And she dug into this question, what is a cult? 68 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:17,359 Speaker 1: Do the m c s qualify? And this is the 69 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:21,280 Speaker 1: first time I'm hearing what she learned. So I reached 70 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 1: out to a cult expert, a sociologist named Dr Yania Lolledg. 71 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 1: She's written books on it, She's researched it. I mean, 72 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:32,480 Speaker 1: I was in a cult myself, and so for years 73 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 1: I wanted to leave, but I couldn't figure out how 74 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:37,719 Speaker 1: to leave. Oh and she says she was in a 75 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:43,160 Speaker 1: Marxist Leninist fan guard party cult. Oh wow. But eventually 76 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 1: it was dissolved and so in the end we all 77 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 1: got out at the same time. Right, when you've so 78 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: internalized the belief system, it becomes very difficult to leave 79 00:04:56,440 --> 00:05:00,040 Speaker 1: because you know you doubt yourself. When you have of 80 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:03,479 Speaker 1: these thoughts, you have negative thoughts, you have to immediately 81 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:06,480 Speaker 1: shut them away because first of all, there's no way 82 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: to talk about them, there's no way to entertain those ideas. 83 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 1: And you're also at the same time kind of chastising 84 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: yourself or even having those ideas and thinking that you know, 85 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 1: there's something wrong with you, that you're you're not being 86 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 1: as good a true believer as everyone else. That sounds familiar. 87 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 1: That almost perfectly describes a number of former sisters we interviewed. 88 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 1: How they felt, Yeah, that feeling of am I alone 89 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:39,279 Speaker 1: in these questions or doubts. And also they're not able 90 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:41,600 Speaker 1: to have personal conversations with their fellow sisters, so they 91 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:45,479 Speaker 1: think that I'm just the problem child. Yeah, and you 92 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:48,920 Speaker 1: didn't talk about why people left. Oh, yeah, So I 93 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 1: described the basics to her, how the sisters are extreme 94 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 1: in their vows, how sisters joined the order not knowing 95 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 1: what it really entails, the emphasis on suffering for the 96 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:01,479 Speaker 1: sake of salvation, you know, the limited contact with the 97 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 1: outside world. It sounds like you're told to me, I mean, 98 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 1: it's obviously very extreme and using techniques that really break 99 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 1: a person down, which is what happens and call Yeah 100 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 1: that doesn't sound good. Wow, Yeah, that's that's not what 101 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:23,359 Speaker 1: I think I expected to hear her start with. To me, 102 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 1: this would certainly fit a lot of the criteria of 103 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:30,920 Speaker 1: being a cult. So what are the criteria for a cult? Basically, 104 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 1: there are three criteria she mentioned off the bat well. 105 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 1: First of all, there's the the authoritarian leader who demands 106 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 1: all loyalty, who cannot be questioned, who cannot be criticized. 107 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:44,720 Speaker 1: There aren't any checks and balances on that person, and 108 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 1: whatever they say kind of goes. Second, there's a structured 109 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: sort of belief system, sort of what I call a 110 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:57,159 Speaker 1: transcendent belief system, which gives you the answers to everything past, present, 111 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 1: in future. That belief system will go I do, and 112 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:06,279 Speaker 1: requires of self transformation to allow you to be on 113 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: that path. And then third, basically there are these strategies 114 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: that are in place to reinforce the indoctrination and basically 115 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 1: keep you in the group and keep you isolated from 116 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 1: the outside world. I mean, there are examples of this 117 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 1: in the MCS, like the fact that you can only 118 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: write home once a month. You're not supposed to really 119 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 1: talk about your time inside. One thing that strikes me, 120 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 1: for example, with the first one is authoritarian leader. Like 121 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 1: the word authoritarian sounds so negative, and I know, I 122 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: don't think the average person would think, oh, mother Teresa 123 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 1: as an authoritarian leader. Um, it is true that she 124 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 1: said the rules for the order, and anyone that was 125 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 1: a superior had power without checks and balances, So maybe 126 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 1: it is an accurate description. It's just such a harsh term. 127 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 1: I think the thing about Mother Tree is that she 128 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 1: had this humility about her, Like I. She had this 129 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: like focusing in all her speeches on the poor and 130 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: love and on Jesus and sort of being this humble servant. 131 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 1: I think of the Medal of Freedom speech where she says, 132 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 1: you know, this isn't about me. Yeah, So it feels 133 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: a little different than some charismatic leaders that are just 134 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 1: so self focused. It's sheathed in humility, So it does 135 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 1: feel different, even though a lot of things feel the same. Definitely. 136 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:35,440 Speaker 1: And something I didn't want to gloss over in this 137 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:38,680 Speaker 1: discussion is that the mischares of charity are part of 138 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:43,680 Speaker 1: an organized religion. So what really differentiates a religion from 139 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:48,040 Speaker 1: a cult, because I think sometimes there's this fine line 140 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:51,199 Speaker 1: and maybe there's even a gray area. Yeah. The way 141 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: I see it's the difference between the cult and the 142 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:57,440 Speaker 1: healthy religion is that a healthy religion is going to 143 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:01,320 Speaker 1: have you worshiping some type of of of higher being, 144 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 1: you know, whether it's God or Jesus or Allah or 145 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 1: Buddha or a tree or whatever. Right, but you're not 146 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 1: expected to worship this human person right in front of you, 147 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 1: which I don't know if that fits Mother Teresa, because 148 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 1: my impression is that it wasn't as if MC sisters 149 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 1: were literally worshiping Mother Teresa. Well, you know, I think 150 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:29,680 Speaker 1: what I mean by that is that person becomes all powerful. 151 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:33,679 Speaker 1: That person is clearly the one who is calling all 152 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 1: the shots and the one who you must obey. While 153 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 1: they may still worship God or Jesus. Um, the human 154 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 1: authoritarian figure intervenes and you know, declares herself the voice 155 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 1: of God. Yeah. So when she says a leader who 156 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 1: declares herself the voice of God, it's like, I don't 157 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 1: think Mother Teresa would say, I declare I'm the voice 158 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 1: of God. You know, like that doesn't sound like Mother Teresa. Um. 159 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 1: And yet and yet the Superiors are the voice of God. 160 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 1: I mean, that is the phrase we heard over and 161 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:19,439 Speaker 1: over again. And she is the superior of the superiors. Yeah. 162 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 1: And you know one other question that I remember you 163 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 1: brought up with me that you were wondering that you 164 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 1: wanted answered at one point when we were reporting the 165 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: story was do ethical cults exist? Oh? Yeah, and so yeah. 166 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 1: I was curious about that too, so I asked Dr Loalich, 167 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:41,440 Speaker 1: and this is what she said. In my opinion, there's 168 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:44,439 Speaker 1: no such thing as a benign cult, because part of 169 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:48,199 Speaker 1: what for me defines the cult is the person giving 170 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 1: up their autonomy, giving up their selves. And once you 171 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 1: give up your autonomy, I don't see that as a 172 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 1: good thing. So I don't care if it's a chocolate 173 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:02,480 Speaker 1: chip cookie cult. It's not good that you've given up 174 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:07,079 Speaker 1: your autonomy and your own decision making powers. I think 175 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 1: it makes sense if you are someone who believes that 176 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 1: independent thought is inherently a good thing, any group that's 177 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 1: taking that away would be seen as bad. Honestly. It 178 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 1: also makes me kind of question myself and whether I'm 179 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 1: too easy sometimes on the missionaries of charity. M hmm, 180 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:32,680 Speaker 1: what do you mean, I'm trying so hard to see 181 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 1: everything from different people's perspectives, Like, I'm really trying to 182 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 1: keep an open mind. And if am I keeping such 183 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 1: an open mind that I'm not um seeing what's in 184 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 1: front of me, does that help me see it better? 185 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 1: Or does that actually blind me? A little bit like 186 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 1: we're going to have such different reactions from different listeners. Yeah, 187 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 1: I mean, I think some people would say, you talk 188 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:00,079 Speaker 1: to a cult expert in reference to the mystery or 189 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:03,960 Speaker 1: of charity. They might be offended by that. But to me, 190 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 1: what really sticks out about what she's saying is that 191 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 1: giving up of autonomy. And if nothing else, if the 192 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 1: missionaries of charity don't meet some of these other standards, 193 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 1: they do meet this standard, that giving up of self. 194 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:23,559 Speaker 1: I mean that literal emptying of self we've heard from 195 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 1: the sisters Jesus miss increased, I m miss decrease. It's 196 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 1: just about the reduction of autonomy to be a pencil 197 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:35,720 Speaker 1: in God's hand, and so they are discouraged from thinking 198 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 1: for themselves. But I think the counter argument is that 199 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 1: their spirituality is about that, that there's this intentional emptying 200 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 1: or draining of self. There's almost like a knowing letting 201 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 1: go of self, and there's something beautiful and meaningful about that. 202 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 1: For some of these women in their perspective, it brings 203 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 1: them closer to God. And why should others that it 204 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 1: is a beautiful thing to let go of yourself and 205 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 1: your own needs and desires for a larger picture, a bigger, 206 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:13,839 Speaker 1: higher purpose or meeting. Yeah. So then I mean, given 207 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 1: all these barriers to leaving, I kind of thought, well, 208 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 1: what allows people to eventually leave? Then? Well, I think 209 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 1: what happens is I think everyone who's in a cultic situation, 210 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 1: even the true believers, everyone has doubts and everyone has hesitations, 211 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 1: and so because you can't do anything with them. The 212 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: way I see it is that you keep shoving these 213 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 1: things in the back of your head. And she used 214 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 1: this metaphor of a shelf, this shelf in the back 215 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 1: of your head, and finally something will happen, you know, 216 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: that'll break that shelf. It'll be one too many things. 217 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 1: And once that shelf breaks and these doubts come spilling out, 218 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: you know, then you kind of have the SAHA moment, like, 219 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:00,160 Speaker 1: oh my god, I've got to get out of your 220 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:03,680 Speaker 1: there's some this is not healthy, this is whatever. You know, 221 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:05,719 Speaker 1: this is wrong. I have to get out of here. 222 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 1: It's not Also, as if once that shelf breaks, you 223 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:12,720 Speaker 1: immediately walk out, you have to come up with a 224 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 1: plan for how to extricate yourself. That also really resonates 225 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 1: with what we've heard, definitely, But all of this also 226 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 1: just makes me think about what is it actually like 227 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 1: when you're there, You're in, You're sorry, your hair is 228 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 1: cut short. You've been living this life for potential years, 229 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 1: and to feel like you want to leave. And we've 230 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 1: heard that before from people of just those thoughts of 231 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 1: like how do I get out? I don't know how 232 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 1: to get out, and then like to just look to 233 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 1: the future, what will my future be? I just can't 234 00:14:52,800 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 1: imagine how difficult that would be. A lot of former 235 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 1: sisters we spoke to didn't want to be recorded, and 236 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 1: that includes all of the former sisters we talked to 237 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 1: who are originally from India. That's an important perspective because 238 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 1: a lot of missionaries of charity are Indian. That was 239 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 1: part of Mother Teresa's vision from the beginning. In my mind, 240 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 1: not being able to hear their voices is something that's 241 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 1: been missing in this podcast. One phone call with a 242 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 1: former sister from India hit us hard. She repeatedly said 243 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 1: that being an m C was like slavery. She said 244 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 1: the impact was like a quote shadow on your mind, 245 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 1: the way of thinking of the innabilly need to make friends, 246 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 1: the relentless guilt. She said, it stays with you and 247 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 1: She felt that life inside the empty society was so 248 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 1: busy it left no time to think. She said there 249 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 1: was quote a lot of brainwashing going on. Collect Livermore, 250 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 1: the Australian sister whose story we've been following, She used 251 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 1: the same language, what is brainwashing. Brainwashing is that you 252 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 1: you've only got one source of information. They know everything 253 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 1: about you, even your most personal thoughts, and if you 254 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 1: start to think you want out, they're there too, sort 255 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 1: of talk you out of it. Collect tried to leave 256 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 1: the Missionaries of Charity in She knelt in front of 257 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 1: Mother Teresa and Calcutta and said she wanted to leave, 258 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 1: but Mother Teresa pressured her to stay. She's the saint 259 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 1: on the ciner. She let's to be right. Ah, I 260 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 1: just knelt down too, she dismissed me. So Collette stayed 261 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 1: and took her final vows. In our interviews, Collette repeatedly 262 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:16,920 Speaker 1: questioned why she hadn't left sooner. She often blamed herself. 263 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 1: She'd say she wished she had more of a spine, 264 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 1: more confidence to take action, But she also seemed keenly 265 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 1: aware of some of the pressures that kept her there. 266 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:31,200 Speaker 1: You cut off from your family and you can't. You 267 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 1: haven't got a friend and you're just struggling to survive. 268 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 1: Collette remembers how sisters would report on each other, like 269 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 1: a time she was accused of having a particular friendship 270 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:47,479 Speaker 1: the girl I joined with Ruth. She and I had 271 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 1: walked to mother house together. It just happened and we 272 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 1: were saying the Rosary along the way, and we just 273 00:17:54,400 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 1: happened to walk together, and this was reported, yeah, because 274 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 1: we're never usually together. And so I just exploded, and 275 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:09,200 Speaker 1: and then I was and then then you have to 276 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 1: go through the whole rigma role of kneeling down and 277 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:17,439 Speaker 1: confessing your lack of self control. And it just went 278 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 1: on and on again and again. Her superiors adminished her 279 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 1: for thinking for herself. She says she learns to question 280 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:29,440 Speaker 1: the motives of everything she did. It's a very negative atmosphere, 281 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:35,120 Speaker 1: you know. It's like emotional abuse, and it's not good 282 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:40,639 Speaker 1: for a person in any way, because if if you 283 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:46,680 Speaker 1: suffer emotional abuse all the time and insecurity all the time, 284 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 1: there will be a point where you'll just crack up 285 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:55,119 Speaker 1: and you won't be kind. And I honestly feel that 286 00:18:55,880 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 1: some people living under that regime have become more bitter 287 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:05,639 Speaker 1: and angry and not their true selves. But I don't know, 288 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 1: I don't I feel like I'm being too negative, you know, 289 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 1: like it wasn't all miserable. Like every time you see 290 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 1: the sisters, they'd be smiling and everything. The spirit of 291 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 1: the society was total surrender, loving, trust, and cheerfulness. No 292 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 1: matter what happened, you were supposed to be cheerful. But 293 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 1: it was just these internal things that problematic. I'm mostly 294 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 1: talking about the system. Colet says, the system taught you 295 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:49,919 Speaker 1: to doubt yourself, but she also started to doubt her 296 00:19:49,960 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 1: place in the system. H B. Colette Livermore had been 297 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 1: a sister with the Missionaries of Charity for ten years. 298 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:33,119 Speaker 1: Then she was transferred to an MCY house in Australia, 299 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:36,359 Speaker 1: her home country. So on the way to her new assignment, 300 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:39,679 Speaker 1: she was allowed to visit her family. She met her 301 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,439 Speaker 1: mother and sister at a train station and they ran 302 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:45,159 Speaker 1: up to greet her. All three of them were in tears. 303 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 1: When Collette left Australia for the m c S. Her 304 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:51,680 Speaker 1: sister was ten years old. Now she was a young woman, 305 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:58,679 Speaker 1: So I was in my own country and the culture clash, 306 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 1: the the way of doing things was even more jangly. 307 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 1: You know, it just wasn't didn't feel right. Collette was 308 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:14,920 Speaker 1: stationed in Burke and the Outback, about four miles from home. 309 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 1: It just seemed culturally inappropriate the way we were behaving, 310 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:24,680 Speaker 1: with the Aboriginal people trying to call him for Sunday 311 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 1: mess when they didn't want to go, the kids didn't 312 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 1: want to go. At this point, it felt like a 313 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,399 Speaker 1: daily struggle to stay in the order. I knew that 314 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:38,199 Speaker 1: I couldn't go on like this, and I think if 315 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:43,679 Speaker 1: you're not true to yourself, you you quite literally lose yourself. 316 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:47,879 Speaker 1: You're not who you are. Finally, she told her superior 317 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 1: she was done. The Superior had hers a priest. He 318 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: told Colette her desire to leave as the result of 319 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:59,200 Speaker 1: an evil spirit. Besides, he said, what would you do? 320 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 1: Where were you go? Colette said she wanted to study medicine, 321 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 1: and he told her that was pride talking. It was 322 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:09,199 Speaker 1: an impossible dream. A novice mistress whom Colette had previously 323 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 1: worked with, wrote to her. She said Colette had to 324 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:14,439 Speaker 1: walk through a dark night of the soul. The crisis 325 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,680 Speaker 1: she was feeling would purify her. Colettz says this was 326 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:20,520 Speaker 1: insidious because it flattered her. A dark knight was a 327 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:24,920 Speaker 1: sign of saintliness. But even with that in mind, she says, 328 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:27,399 Speaker 1: she felt like she was cracking up. And so I 329 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 1: finally wrote to mother. I said, please don't delay this anymore. 330 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:35,680 Speaker 1: I really need to leave. She didn't give the letter 331 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 1: to her superior like she was supposed to. Colette was 332 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 1: often in charge of the shopping, and in one of 333 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 1: her trips she mailed the letter to Calcutta herself. About 334 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:49,159 Speaker 1: six weeks later, Collette got her answer mother Tracey's raw. 335 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:54,480 Speaker 1: I think it's very distinctive. I knew um what it was. 336 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 1: All of the other sisters in the house, there were 337 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 1: only four of them, had gone to a nearby city 338 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:07,119 Speaker 1: for medical appointments. Collette was alone, which is unheard the 339 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 1: first time ever in the house of time. I was 340 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 1: in the society. She stepped out of the house and 341 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 1: onto a dirt road nicknames the Crystal Highway because of 342 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:24,160 Speaker 1: all of the broken glass. She stood there, letter in hand, 343 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,640 Speaker 1: the shards glinting and lighting the way to the horizon, 344 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 1: and she read, my dearest child, you're asking for a 345 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 1: year of absence. I personally don't like it, but the 346 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 1: church permits it. If you still want it, you can 347 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:44,000 Speaker 1: go home to your mother for three months without the 348 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 1: religious stress. Be careful when you are out, for you 349 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:52,639 Speaker 1: carry in your heart the precious treasure, your vocation, your vows. 350 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,159 Speaker 1: I will pretty much for you. Do not let the 351 00:23:56,240 --> 00:24:00,080 Speaker 1: evil one deceive you. You belong to Jesus, He loves you. 352 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 1: God bless you mother. Teresa m. C. Yes, I'm free. 353 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 1: The Superior was terribly distressed, tearful, but I was out 354 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 1: and it was a big relief. Yeah, I was out. 355 00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,440 Speaker 1: Mary Johnson would stay in the order for twenty years, 356 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 1: and she didn't know it yet, but her time there 357 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 1: was slowly running out. What made me want to stay 358 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,880 Speaker 1: really was the deep conviction that God wanted me there. 359 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,480 Speaker 1: That's why I stayed, because I felt like I was 360 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 1: called and whatever the circumstances were, whether they were happy 361 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 1: and beautiful times or whether they were sustained periods of 362 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:25,639 Speaker 1: not so great, God had called me there and that 363 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 1: was what was important. But there was something else major 364 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 1: going on in her life. Mary had fallen in love. 365 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:35,200 Speaker 1: One day she was on a train back from a 366 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:39,480 Speaker 1: trip to Florence. It was nineteen years in when the 367 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,880 Speaker 1: train entered a tunnel in the mountainside. Everything went dark. 368 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 1: She slid out the crucifix that was always at her side, 369 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 1: the one Mother Teresa had given her many years before. 370 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:51,879 Speaker 1: This was the crucifix that she put on her pillow 371 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 1: every night when she prayed, and every night before bed, 372 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:58,439 Speaker 1: she kissed the crucifix, kissed each of Jesus's five wounds. 373 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:01,720 Speaker 1: On the rain in the dark, she ran her fingers 374 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,120 Speaker 1: up and down its sides, and she started to think. 375 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:07,399 Speaker 1: She thought about her years as an MC, what it 376 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:09,639 Speaker 1: all meant, what she was doing with her life, how 377 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 1: she was doing as an m C. She knew she'd 378 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 1: broken her vows more than once. This time she'd fallen 379 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 1: in love with a priest. We call him Father Tom here, 380 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: but that's not his real name. And then there was 381 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:23,440 Speaker 1: the time she broke her vows when she was alone 382 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 1: with Tom in the hospital. She knew she still craped 383 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:33,440 Speaker 1: that intimacy. Not too long after our experience in the hospital, 384 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 1: Tom told me that he was being transferred. It was like, 385 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 1: all right, then, what can we do? That's the end 386 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:48,439 Speaker 1: of that. She had stashed a glossy photo of him 387 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,399 Speaker 1: in the folds of her spare. Sorry. She would sometimes 388 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 1: take it out and look at his face. She knew 389 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 1: this photo broke three of her vows, Poverty, which didn't 390 00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 1: allow extra possessions, chastity forbade this type of relationship, and obedience, 391 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:05,879 Speaker 1: which required that her superior know about her possession of 392 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:09,639 Speaker 1: the item. But she couldn't seem to help herself. She 393 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 1: hit the photo, but now Father Tom was far away 394 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:18,480 Speaker 1: and she was still stuck with her doubts and questions. 395 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,200 Speaker 1: They rushed through her mind as she wrote that train 396 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:25,639 Speaker 1: back to the convent. I just was holding Jesus on 397 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 1: the cross in my hands and wondering what am I 398 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 1: going to do? This is? I feel so conflicted, And 399 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 1: it's not just about Tom. It's also about being asked 400 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:43,200 Speaker 1: to do things that I just don't really sit right 401 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,400 Speaker 1: with me. It's about feeling so conflicted about the things 402 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:50,680 Speaker 1: my superiors were doing. The organization didn't look like the 403 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:54,960 Speaker 1: one that I had joined so many years earlier. I 404 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 1: had to make a decision, and I couldn't be, you know, 405 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 1: kind of one foot in, one foot out. So she 406 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,880 Speaker 1: made a plan. She decided she would spend one year 407 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:06,880 Speaker 1: keeping all of the rules, doing the best I can 408 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,080 Speaker 1: to be exactly the sort of missionary of charity that 409 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 1: Mother Teresa would approve of. She told herself that if 410 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 1: at the end of the year she could be herself, 411 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 1: her true self and still be a missionary of charity, 412 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 1: she'd make a firm commitment to stay, but if not, 413 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:29,399 Speaker 1: she'd leave because I didn't feel like God wanted me 414 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,639 Speaker 1: to be somebody other than the person he made me. 415 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 1: Of course, to fulfill that pact to be a good 416 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 1: missionary of charity, she knew she'd have to give up 417 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:43,960 Speaker 1: Tom and his photograph, so she took it from its 418 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 1: hiding place and brought it to the chapel. There was 419 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 1: a candle burning, and I held that photo up to 420 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:53,800 Speaker 1: the candle and watched us as the photo turned to ash, 421 00:28:54,400 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 1: and it felt cleaner. I felt cleaner. She gathered the 422 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 1: ashes and blew them out the window. Mary was then 423 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,520 Speaker 1: assigned to be superior of a house intour Bellamonica at 424 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 1: the northern edge of Rome. The previous superior had just disappeared, 425 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 1: no explanation, just left. She hadn't seemed to be in distress, 426 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 1: but she was gone. Now, leaving without permission was considered 427 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 1: a disgrace to one's self and the community, and now 428 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 1: it was Mary's job to replace her. Mary says she 429 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:37,720 Speaker 1: tried to be a compassionate superior. She let sisters sleep 430 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 1: a little extra on Thursdays. She let one sister drink 431 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 1: coffee early to fight off drowsiness during meditation, and another 432 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 1: she let work in the garden. She also tried to 433 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,960 Speaker 1: infuse her mission work with new meaning. I want to 434 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 1: help the poor people get out of poverty, not just 435 00:29:55,560 --> 00:30:00,160 Speaker 1: make them a little bit more comfortable being poor. You know. 436 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:04,000 Speaker 1: I had tried when I was superior to get some 437 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 1: programs in place which would actually do that, and I 438 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 1: couldn't get permission to do it. No. No, we'll house them, 439 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 1: we'll feed them, and then we'll put them back out 440 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 1: on the street without any more help than that. That 441 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,440 Speaker 1: wasn't enough for Mary. She felt like a robot just 442 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 1: following rules. We should help people live a full life, 443 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 1: she thought, and I wanted that full life for myself. 444 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 1: Throughout her time as a missionary of charity, very often 445 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:35,239 Speaker 1: attended vow ceremonies. They happened every six months. That were 446 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 1: first vows, that were final vows. She'd always thought these 447 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 1: events were joyful, hopeful occasions. They were a chance for 448 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 1: her to silently renew her own vows to herself. I 449 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 1: knew all the words that ceremony by heart, every single 450 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 1: one of them. But this time, when she attended an 451 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,959 Speaker 1: mcy vow ceremony, she didn't know if she could silently 452 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 1: renew those vows. Her mind kept flipping back and forth. 453 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,120 Speaker 1: This was the year she had decided to give herself 454 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 1: fully as a gift to God. Then she thought, but 455 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 1: what right did God have to take everything? She stopped herself. No, 456 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 1: she was giving, God wasn't taking. She was Sister Donata, 457 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 1: the freely given one. But then why was it that 458 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 1: as she screwed her eyes shut, trying to quell the 459 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:28,080 Speaker 1: built up presentment, she felt, tears streamed down her face. Finally, 460 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 1: she prayed, God, I cursed the day he placed that 461 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,560 Speaker 1: woman's wrinkled face on the cover of Time magazine. This 462 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:40,000 Speaker 1: is not love. As the sisters took their vows, something 463 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 1: inside of me is like yelling, don't don't do it, 464 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:48,960 Speaker 1: don't do it. I was like sitting back in the 465 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 1: pews and and just trying to stay in my seat there, 466 00:31:53,760 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 1: but wanting to run from the church. It was Mary 467 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:18,200 Speaker 1: Johnson's twentieth year in the m c S. As the 468 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 1: end of for one year, promised to fully follow the 469 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 1: rules approached, she asked to take double penance. She thought 470 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 1: it would bring her clarity and strength. She tightened the 471 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 1: chains around her arm and waist twice a day. She 472 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 1: hit her legs double the number of times. She no 473 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:35,000 Speaker 1: longer believed God took pleasure in her pain, but she 474 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 1: did it anyway. You know, I've been thinking about this 475 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 1: decision because it's such a big one, and I was 476 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 1: trying to figure out for myself what was the last straw, 477 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,640 Speaker 1: what was the thing? And then I kind of I 478 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 1: started thinking about my own life and times when I've 479 00:32:53,200 --> 00:33:00,480 Speaker 1: made big decisions, and often there isn't a moment, or 480 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,480 Speaker 1: if there's a moment, it's not a moment of decision, 481 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 1: it's a moment of realizing I've already decided, like I've 482 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 1: kind of known for a while. One of the things 483 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 1: I've been doing for the past couple of years is 484 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:18,800 Speaker 1: studying the brain the way we make decisions. And there's 485 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 1: a lot of controversy about that among neuroscientists and people 486 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 1: who study these things really closely, and it seems that 487 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:31,479 Speaker 1: a lot of decisions actually get made before the person 488 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,880 Speaker 1: is conscious that the decision has been made. All of 489 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:39,240 Speaker 1: these different experiments, even just real simple things like you 490 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 1: can raise your hand whenever you want to raise your hand, 491 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 1: and the scans of the brain shows that the brain 492 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 1: knows that you're going to make that decision before you 493 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,600 Speaker 1: know that you're going to make that decision. So I 494 00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:58,320 Speaker 1: think the whole, you know, big decision making thing it 495 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:01,920 Speaker 1: it's not necessarily a moment that we are fully conscious 496 00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,200 Speaker 1: of that. There are all kinds of background things going 497 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,760 Speaker 1: on in our psyches, in our brains that were not 498 00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:11,120 Speaker 1: always aware of, and then we become aware of them. 499 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:15,200 Speaker 1: I think what Mary's getting at here is that by 500 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,200 Speaker 1: the time she actually took action to leave, something deep 501 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:22,120 Speaker 1: inside her already knew, like there is an element of inevitability. 502 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 1: I wonder if that's what allowed her to accept her 503 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:36,800 Speaker 1: own decision. She knew she'd started already made it, Mary remembers. 504 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:41,400 Speaker 1: On Christmas Day, an mc priest shared his own story 505 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,880 Speaker 1: in a homily. Something about it struck her cut to 506 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 1: the core of her decision on whether to leave, and 507 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:50,880 Speaker 1: he said that a year ago he left the father's 508 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:53,040 Speaker 1: because he didn't even know if he wanted to be 509 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:56,920 Speaker 1: a priest anymore. So he said he went away praying 510 00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 1: and thinking and struggling, but at the end he'd come 511 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 1: to the conclusion that he would never be happier than 512 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:09,840 Speaker 1: as a priest. So he came back to the MC fathers. 513 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:14,920 Speaker 1: Then he told them God works in very surprising ways, 514 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:18,920 Speaker 1: and we must not be afraid to follow the stars 515 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:22,080 Speaker 1: he sends us, even if the journey takes us to 516 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:28,719 Speaker 1: unexpected places. That night, Mary held a pillow over her 517 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:32,319 Speaker 1: head to stifle the sound of her sobbing. She didn't 518 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:37,480 Speaker 1: want the sisters to hear. I just new, but I cried, 519 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,040 Speaker 1: and over the next few days I wrote that letter. 520 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:51,600 Speaker 1: On January one, she wrote to Mother Teresa. She asked 521 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:53,960 Speaker 1: to start the official process to leave the m c's. 522 00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:57,439 Speaker 1: It's called ex claustration. It would involve a year away 523 00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,839 Speaker 1: from the MCS before fully leaving the order, when Mary 524 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:03,120 Speaker 1: could pray and discern her path. It's sort of like 525 00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,160 Speaker 1: a leave of absence. If after a year, Mary still 526 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:09,160 Speaker 1: felt leaving the order was best, she would request permission 527 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:13,239 Speaker 1: from the Pope for a dispensation from her vows. Mary 528 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 1: told Mother Teresa she loved the sisters and was grateful, 529 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:19,040 Speaker 1: but she was leaving, and she would not change her mind. 530 00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:22,959 Speaker 1: Even though it was the first of the month. Mary 531 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:24,920 Speaker 1: decided not to cut her hair that night, as she 532 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:30,279 Speaker 1: usually did. Mother Teresa had told us, never go a 533 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,839 Speaker 1: month without cutting your hair. She said that that road 534 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:38,239 Speaker 1: only led to leaving the convent. But I was lucky 535 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:40,520 Speaker 1: because my hair was curly, and even as it grew, 536 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:43,719 Speaker 1: it didn't grow out in a way that could be seen. 537 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,600 Speaker 1: She also stopped taking the discipline. She never would again. 538 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:56,040 Speaker 1: I didn't leave the convent without faith, without trust, without hope, 539 00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:59,160 Speaker 1: without love. I had a lot of it. I just 540 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:06,040 Speaker 1: didn't leave because I had turned against God or my vocation, 541 00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:09,600 Speaker 1: or because I was bitter. I left because I believed 542 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:12,959 Speaker 1: God wanted people to flourish, and I knew I wasn't 543 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:15,759 Speaker 1: flourishing there, So how could it possibly be that God 544 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:19,920 Speaker 1: wanted me to stay? And lots and lots of prayer, 545 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:23,560 Speaker 1: lots and lots of discernment, Mary felt called by God 546 00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:29,719 Speaker 1: to a new place. Around this time, Father Tom was 547 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:33,759 Speaker 1: so far away in another country. Before he left, we 548 00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:37,400 Speaker 1: had had an agreement that if anything important happened, we 549 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,480 Speaker 1: would let each other know, So I had his phone number. 550 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:43,960 Speaker 1: I called him and told him that I had received 551 00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:48,399 Speaker 1: permission to leave the Missionaries of Charity on a one 552 00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:54,840 Speaker 1: year leave of absence. And when I told Tom that 553 00:37:55,120 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 1: I would be leaving for a while, he asked, does 554 00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:07,040 Speaker 1: this mean that you would consider marrying me? And that 555 00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:11,120 Speaker 1: question just kind of floored me because I wasn't expecting it, 556 00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:16,719 Speaker 1: and it wasn't really a proposal either. It was like, 557 00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,800 Speaker 1: what what did he mean? And I wasn't leaving to 558 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,320 Speaker 1: marry him. I was leaving really to be myself, to 559 00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:29,760 Speaker 1: find my own way. And I felt like I loved 560 00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:34,360 Speaker 1: Father Tom so much, and I was scared that it 561 00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:37,960 Speaker 1: would be a distraction for me. I felt like I 562 00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:42,719 Speaker 1: really needed to figure out what God wanted of me. 563 00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:49,800 Speaker 1: So Mary wrote him a letter, pages and pages. She 564 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,960 Speaker 1: said she loved him, she would always love him, but 565 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:56,719 Speaker 1: she needed time to find her path. She said, during 566 00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,959 Speaker 1: her years ex clustration, her leave of absence, they would 567 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:02,879 Speaker 1: and contact each other, not a phone call, not a letter. 568 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:09,360 Speaker 1: When she finished writing, she felt peace, and then she 569 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,840 Speaker 1: waited from mother Teresa's response. By this time, she was 570 00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:16,279 Speaker 1: quite old and she wasn't always remembering things. And I 571 00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:19,680 Speaker 1: received a letter back, signed by her. It was kind 572 00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:22,360 Speaker 1: of a form letter, but she had signed it giving 573 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:25,880 Speaker 1: me permission to leave. She wasn't supposed to tell anyone 574 00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:28,160 Speaker 1: about the news, yet she wouldn't tell any of the 575 00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:31,120 Speaker 1: priests and volunteers she worked with until right before she left. 576 00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:34,879 Speaker 1: When the time came, she would say, is instructed. I'm 577 00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:37,520 Speaker 1: going to America to be closer with my family. Is 578 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:42,359 Speaker 1: there some trouble? The sisters really wanted to contain any 579 00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:46,640 Speaker 1: sort of public relations damage that might come. Like any 580 00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:49,640 Speaker 1: sister who was transferred, she'd have no contact with the 581 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:52,800 Speaker 1: people she left behind. She'd give up the relationships she 582 00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:56,279 Speaker 1: had formed over twenty years. But she wanted to warn 583 00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:59,600 Speaker 1: the sisters under her care. There were just six sisters. 584 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:03,560 Speaker 1: I us they're superior. I told them a few days 585 00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:07,480 Speaker 1: before I left that that was what was happening. Did 586 00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:10,359 Speaker 1: you feel like they understood? I don't think they had 587 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:15,960 Speaker 1: any idea the degree to which I had been struggling 588 00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:20,760 Speaker 1: and praying and discerning. Whenever Mary visited the larger convent nearby, 589 00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:23,479 Speaker 1: sisters would cry and ask her if it was true. 590 00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:26,320 Speaker 1: The sister who had once been married supervisor in the 591 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:29,239 Speaker 1: kitchen when she was a novice nineteen years before. The 592 00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:33,680 Speaker 1: sister burned by boiling pasta water. She wept. Some sisters 593 00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:36,480 Speaker 1: told Mary she was making a mistake, that she'd regret 594 00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:40,359 Speaker 1: leaving for the rest of her life. But in the end, 595 00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:44,160 Speaker 1: the sisters and Mary's convent helped her get ready. They 596 00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:48,600 Speaker 1: helped so some close for me a skirt and a blouse, 597 00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:53,040 Speaker 1: a brown paisley skirt and a dark gold blouse, Mary 598 00:40:53,120 --> 00:41:01,000 Speaker 1: called at her getaway outfit. Mary didn't want to discuss 599 00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:04,560 Speaker 1: her departure with Mother Teresa in person. She had gotten 600 00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:07,680 Speaker 1: permission to leave in a form letter, and Mother Teresa 601 00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:10,920 Speaker 1: was eighty six in frail. Mary thought the news might 602 00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:14,760 Speaker 1: give her a heart attack, but things didn't go as planned. 603 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:20,040 Speaker 1: She came to Rome where I was, and somebody reminded 604 00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:25,359 Speaker 1: her that shortly I would be leaving. And she came 605 00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:27,359 Speaker 1: and she found me, and she brought me to her 606 00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:30,200 Speaker 1: room and she says, what is this? Mother, here's about you? 607 00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:32,879 Speaker 1: So what is it? Mother? Tear's about you? And it's 608 00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:36,759 Speaker 1: a mother I'm leaving And she couldn't believe it, and 609 00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:40,080 Speaker 1: she tried to convince me to stay. And just very 610 00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:47,480 Speaker 1: very very very difficult situation and conversation. Mary knew Mother 611 00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:50,960 Speaker 1: wanted explanations, and there are countless things she wanted to say. 612 00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:54,279 Speaker 1: More than anything, Mary wanted to talk with this woman 613 00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:57,360 Speaker 1: who had defined her life, to tell her everything she 614 00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:02,960 Speaker 1: felt to explain Mother. She wanted to say, My God 615 00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:06,640 Speaker 1: isn't like yours. Your God asks you to deny yourself. 616 00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:11,680 Speaker 1: He counts each sacrifice. Your God is Jesus crucified. Mine 617 00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:15,480 Speaker 1: is the God of resurrection, who says, enough of this suffering, 618 00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:20,880 Speaker 1: Let's heal the world. Above all, she wanted Mother Teresa 619 00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:24,040 Speaker 1: to know she loved her. Did Mother know how much? 620 00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:30,879 Speaker 1: Mother Teresa said, Sister, listen to mother. Talk to mother. 621 00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:33,959 Speaker 1: She hid her hand on the desk with each word. 622 00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:38,479 Speaker 1: But Mary knew if she started listening her reasons for going, 623 00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:41,359 Speaker 1: it would turn into a dialog. She knew what Mother 624 00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:45,759 Speaker 1: Teresa would say, what persuasive argument she'd launch into, and 625 00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:48,839 Speaker 1: she knew Mother Teresa would be convincing. She still had 626 00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:52,279 Speaker 1: a power over Mary's psyche, and at a certain point, 627 00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:57,480 Speaker 1: she says, Mother could believes us about anyone, but she 628 00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:02,640 Speaker 1: cannot believe it about you. And we never had another conversation. 629 00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:09,640 Speaker 1: That was the last conversation I had with her. I left. 630 00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:16,840 Speaker 1: She died three months later. And I still dream about 631 00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:34,040 Speaker 1: her from time to time. On a spring morning, Mary 632 00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:37,480 Speaker 1: Johnson woke up in the convent dormitory, but instead of 633 00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:39,839 Speaker 1: putting on her sorry, she reached for the paisley skirt 634 00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:43,000 Speaker 1: and blouse. Instead of hanging the crucifix at her side, 635 00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:46,400 Speaker 1: she picked it up and kissed it, then put Jesus 636 00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:49,640 Speaker 1: in her bag. What did it feel like to put 637 00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:53,319 Speaker 1: on regular clothes after all these years? The strangest thing 638 00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:55,959 Speaker 1: about putting on regular clothes for me was I could 639 00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:59,799 Speaker 1: feel the wind on my calves. I mean, my sk 640 00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:02,239 Speaker 1: didn't go all the way to the floor, and just 641 00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:04,480 Speaker 1: like that, that part of me hadn't felt wind in 642 00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:09,920 Speaker 1: so long, So that was really strange. As Mary stepped 643 00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:12,720 Speaker 1: out the door, the short curls on her head moved 644 00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:16,319 Speaker 1: ever so slightly in the breeze. More than half her 645 00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:18,960 Speaker 1: life had been in a convent. She was thirty nine 646 00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:23,520 Speaker 1: years old. Now she just needed to figure out what next. 647 00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:15,279 Speaker 1: The Turning is written by Allen lance Lesser and me. 648 00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:18,799 Speaker 1: Our producers are Allen lance Lesser and Emily Foreman. Our 649 00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:22,560 Speaker 1: editor is Rob Rosenthal. Andrea a Suage is our digital producer. 650 00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:28,200 Speaker 1: Fact checking by Andrea Lopez Crusado Special thanks to Dr Yanielalich, 651 00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:32,480 Speaker 1: Professor Emerita of Sociology at California State University, Chico, and 652 00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:37,280 Speaker 1: Amy Gaines, Sarah oh Lander, Mamad Fishcoff, Bethan Macaluso, Travis Dunlap, 653 00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:41,279 Speaker 1: and consulting producer Mary Johnson. Her memoir and Unquenchable Thirst 654 00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:45,960 Speaker 1: provided inspiration for this series. Our executive producers are Jessica 655 00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:49,440 Speaker 1: Albert and John Parratti from Rococo Punch and Katrina Norville 656 00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:52,239 Speaker 1: from My Heart Radio. Our theme music is by Matt Reid. 657 00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:55,200 Speaker 1: For photos and more details on the series, follow us 658 00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:58,440 Speaker 1: on Instagram at Rococo Punch. You can reach out via 659 00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:02,480 Speaker 1: email to the Turning at Prococa Punch dot com. I'm 660 00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:04,400 Speaker 1: Aerca Lands. Thanks for listening.