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Speaker 1: Is Pope Leo planning a retreat on the Latin Mass

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Speaker 1: restrictions instituted by his predecessor the Prayerful Posse. We'll explore

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Speaker 1: it all next. Welcome to an important Prayerful Posse. Be

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Speaker 1: sure to go subscribe to the show. It's a wonderful

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Speaker 1: totally free. Or you can visit Raymond Arroyo dot com

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Speaker 1: if you'd like to contribute.

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Speaker 2: Let's convene the Prayerful Posse.

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Speaker 1: Canon lawyer Priest of the Archdiocese of New York, Father

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Speaker 1: Gerald Murray, and editor in chief of The Catholic Thing

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Speaker 1: dot org Robert Royal.

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Speaker 2: Gentlemen, thanks for being here. I want to.

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Speaker 1: Start with these reports this week that Pope Leo maybe

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Speaker 1: and I want to underscore maybe rolling back Pope Francis's

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Speaker 1: restrictions on the traditional Latin Mass.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: The news comes as the Pillar and Catholic News Service

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Speaker 1: have confirmed that the Pope's representative to Britain told bishops

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Speaker 1: there that a recent meeting that he attended and brief

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Speaker 1: them on that Popolio does not intend to repeal Traditionionis Custodis,

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Speaker 1: which restricted the traditional right, but he is willing to

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Speaker 1: grant generous exemptions to the enforcement of the law, at

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Speaker 1: least in the UK. Father CNS, the Catholic News Service,

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Speaker 1: was quick to characterize this news as nothing has changed,

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Speaker 1: assuming the news is correct.

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Speaker 2: Are they right?

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Speaker 3: I would say CNS is not right, because if it's

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Speaker 3: true that there'll be generous exemptions, that means when bishop's

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Speaker 3: request to have the Latin traditional Latin Mass in parish churches,

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Speaker 3: apparently now they will be given exemptions for a couple

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Speaker 3: of years. In the recent past, bishops asking for that

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Speaker 3: were generally denied under Pope Francis, and they seem their

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Speaker 3: war exceptions now being given in under Pope Leo. So

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Speaker 3: I hope that's continuing, but it is not a how

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Speaker 3: can we say return to the order that Pope Benedict started,

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Speaker 3: because when we say generous exemptions, that's only to bishops.

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Speaker 3: What about lay people? Can they request this directly? There's

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Speaker 3: no indication of that. What about parish priests? Could they

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Speaker 3: request it? So it really is going back to you

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Speaker 3: even before Pope Benedict, because under Pope John Paul the

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Speaker 3: Second it was up to the diocese and bishop to

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Speaker 3: authorize the Latin Mass in his diocese, and now perhaps

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Speaker 3: that's where we're headed.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Bob, why not just abrogate tradisionists and restore some

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Speaker 1: more in pontificum Pope Benedict's legislation. I mean, surely if

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Speaker 1: you're offering endless exemptions from this arbitrary law that Pope

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Speaker 1: Francis came up with, that's where there seems to be

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Speaker 1: tending anyway.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, there's a tension here, there's no question, and I

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Speaker 4: think we're going to have to keep our eyes out

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Speaker 4: for more of this, because it's clear that Leo wants

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Speaker 4: to at least present himself as very much in line

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Speaker 4: with his predecessor of Francis, with whom he was very close,

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Speaker 4: and so he's not going to just at this. You know,

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Speaker 4: it's only a few months that he's been in the

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Speaker 4: papacy reverse what was a very controversial decision on the

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Speaker 4: part of Pope frances to limit the traditional Latin Mass,

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Speaker 4: and they've got a lot of pushback all around the world,

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Speaker 4: and so it seems like this very language, these generous

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Speaker 4: permissions that are being talked about that can be even

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Speaker 4: renewed after two years, that on the one hand, he

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Speaker 4: doesn't want to formally abrogate traditionalist custodis, But on the

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Speaker 4: other hand, he wants to be kind of open to

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Speaker 4: the people who have been protesting and give them the

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Speaker 4: possibility of at least celebrating the Mass. I agree with

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Speaker 4: Father there. It would be much better, much simpler, much

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Speaker 4: more coherent to just abrogate it, but he would have

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Speaker 4: to kind of repudiate Francis, and I don't think that's

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Speaker 4: what he wants to do.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well, and as Father alluded to earlier, Cleveland and San

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Speaker 1: Angelo in the United States, they both got exemptions this year,

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Speaker 1: which does demonstrate this kind of a thawing under Pope Leo,

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Speaker 1: at least a willingness to hear the bishops out and

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Speaker 1: grant exemptions on a case by case basis to bishops.

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Speaker 1: Another indication that Leo might be willing to loosen these

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Speaker 1: restrictions placed by Pope Francis. On the Latin right, he

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Speaker 1: received the apostolic administrator of a Brazilian group called the

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Speaker 1: Personal Apostolic Administration of Saint John Mary Vienni. Now that

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Speaker 1: organization was established in two thousand and two under John Paul.

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Speaker 1: It has one sole purpose and that is a dedication

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Speaker 1: to the celebration of the traditional Latin Mass. Father, how

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Speaker 1: significant is that meeting given the news we're hearing out

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Speaker 1: of the UK.

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Speaker 3: Now, it's significant because Bishop Rafon, who is the bishop

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Speaker 3: of that CANi established prelature, so to speak, administration, He

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Speaker 3: is seventy five years old, so he will need to

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Speaker 3: be replaced. So the question is will that administration continue

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Speaker 3: to be in existence and given a new bishop, or

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Speaker 3: will it be collapsed into the diocese Because there's an

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Speaker 3: interesting history there. The bishop of composts have been a

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Speaker 3: Bishop Castro Meyer who ordained many priests who wanted to

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Speaker 3: celebrate the Old Mass, and then there were lots of

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Speaker 3: those priests present in that diocese and John Polo second

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Speaker 3: regularized it. So there are a lot and a lot

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Speaker 3: of people in that diocese and that administration who want

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Speaker 3: to continue to go to the Latin Mass. I'm sure the

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Speaker 3: Holy Seat is going to make an arrangement. Whether they'll

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Speaker 3: continue to have their own separate bishops another question. We'll

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Speaker 3: see what the discussions lead to.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Bob, I want to move back now to one

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Speaker 1: of your favorite topics.

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Speaker 2: I know something very dear to your heart.

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Speaker 1: The interim reports of the Senate on Cinidality were released

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Speaker 1: this week. These study groups, now, these were reports initially

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Speaker 1: set to be released back in June, but the date

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Speaker 1: was extended because of the passing of Francis the election of.

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Speaker 2: The new Pope.

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Speaker 1: According to a report in the National Catholic Register, one

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Speaker 1: of the groups attached to the Dicast for the Doctrine

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Speaker 1: of Faith says their final report will quote reserve a

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Speaker 1: special word for the possibility of a women's diaconate.

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Speaker 2: The group is.

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Speaker 1: Also looking at accounts of women in church leadership, the

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Speaker 1: nature and exercise of ecclesial power, and what's described as

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Speaker 1: critical tensions regarding clericalism and male chauvinism. Bob, it feels

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Speaker 1: like they're leading the witnesses here. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: if I kept saying, well, Bob, give me examples of

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Speaker 1: male chauvinism that you've seen. I mean, no matter how

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Speaker 1: many times they're reminded that this is a closed case

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Speaker 1: on female ordination, this issue continues to be pushed and

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Speaker 1: studied and examined.

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Speaker 4: Your thoughts if actually these reports are out early they

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Speaker 4: were supposed to, They were displaced in December, and now

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Speaker 4: they're already out in early November, and we're hearing other

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Speaker 4: reports that they're refusing to use the term controversial issues

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Speaker 4: and instead they're calling them emerging issues and such like. So,

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Speaker 4: I mean, there's a lot of languages that's trying to

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Speaker 4: shuffle the cards here. Look, I mean, we've talked about

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Speaker 4: this many times. The question of deacon is a theological question.

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Speaker 4: It's always been connected with deacon's, priests, bishops, you know,

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Speaker 4: the order of the hierarchy in the church. And so

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Speaker 4: there are certain activist elements in the church that want

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Speaker 4: to keep issues like this alive, like they want to

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Speaker 4: keep the LGBT conversation going with obviously you know, a goal.

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Speaker 4: Not immediately they know, but at some point it'll flip

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Speaker 4: the traditional teaching. I don't see that this is going

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Speaker 4: to go anywhere, and I have a feeling that it's

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Speaker 4: not likely to go anywhere.

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Speaker 2: With Leo.

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Speaker 4: Francis talked about making room for women in the church.

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Speaker 4: Leo has done the same thing. We may get what

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Speaker 4: is some sort of office that will be essentially deaconuses,

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Speaker 4: but it would really surprise me if Leo is to

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Speaker 4: allow this significant change in how we understand orders in

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Speaker 4: the church. It may happen. But I think the only

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Speaker 4: way we're going to know is to see what he decides.

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Speaker 1: Well, Bob mentioned this idea, and you see the changing language.

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Speaker 2: Father.

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Speaker 1: They said that female ordination and homosexuality particularly were controversial issues.

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Speaker 1: That was the one that they now said, it's an

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Speaker 1: emerging issue. It's not controversial anymore. My question is to you,

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Speaker 1: has sinidelity come to mean we won't take no for

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Speaker 1: an answer when it comes to settled issues like essential

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Speaker 1: human morality and female ordination?

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Speaker 3: Well, I think so. It's senidality means whatever the people

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Speaker 3: in charge tell us it means. In fact, that's the

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Speaker 3: big question here. After all these years of and adality,

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Speaker 3: none of us can specifically define it. We now have

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Speaker 3: a new word in one of the report's pastorality comes out,

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Speaker 3: which is what does that mean? It's sort of shorthand

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Speaker 3: for pastoral solutions, meaning solutions a contradict doctrine but are

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Speaker 3: good for the people, which, of course anything that contradicts

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Speaker 3: doctrines not good for the people. Now, I should know

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Speaker 3: these are called interim reports, and they refer that the

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Speaker 3: final reports are coming out in December. So for me,

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Speaker 3: it's a string. Why would these issued in November, and

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Speaker 3: I read them all the other day carefully. A lot

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Speaker 3: of them seem to have been written in the period

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Speaker 3: of July and August of this year, because some of

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Speaker 3: them referred to what they were going what the committees

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Speaker 3: will do in September.

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Speaker 2: So I got, why is this?

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Speaker 3: Why do we need interim reports six weeks before the

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Speaker 3: deadline for final reports? And they're kind of anodyne. They

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Speaker 3: don't say much, and they're also sad to say. They

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Speaker 3: reflect kind of the jargon excuse me of the faculty

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Speaker 3: lounge at universities where you talk about intersectionality and multi

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Speaker 3: lateral X y Z. This is more I hate to

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Speaker 3: say it, but this is the bureaucracy talking to itself

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Speaker 3: and letting us in on it to make us feel

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Speaker 3: that we're participants when they're all doing it all on

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Speaker 3: their own.

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Speaker 1: Well, or another word for that might be pastorality. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we can make your words up so it doesn't matter.

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Speaker 1: Other groups submitted reports on quote priestly formation, the selection

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Speaker 1: of bishops who are a big deal in these reports,

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Speaker 1: the pastoral problem of polygamy in Africa, and the liturgy.

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Speaker 1: Most of these reports examined and called for what's called

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Speaker 1: here greater participation of the people of God, particularly women

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Speaker 1: and families, and they're connecting that to the process of

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Speaker 1: priestly formation and choosing bishops, so the laity and women

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Speaker 1: would have greater control, I guess over choosing bishops. The

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Speaker 1: Report on Liturgy raised about how the Church might promote

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Speaker 1: greater recognition of women within liturgical life, suggesting that women

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Speaker 1: are suffering discrimination. Bob, what do you make of these

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Speaker 1: patterns that we're seeing across all of these reports. Certainly

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Speaker 1: women's role in the church seems to be a fixation

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Speaker 1: of every one of these reports.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think that's something of a battering ram too.

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Speaker 4: It takes what is kind of a sensitive point in

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Speaker 4: secular political circles, and if you look at the general

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Speaker 4: tenure of where this tenor of where this is all going,

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Speaker 4: it clearly is an attempt to change institutions and the

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Speaker 4: way decisions are made. They keep denying this, They keep

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Speaker 4: talking about how this is really just you know, are

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Speaker 4: all going to be talking with one another. Everybody gets

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Speaker 4: a voice, but at the end of the day, with

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Speaker 4: his cash is out, and occasionally even the mask slips

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Speaker 4: a little bit, and they talk about changing structures, changing institutions,

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Speaker 4: changing decision processes. So look, it can start with this

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Speaker 4: and then if this conversation can overthrow as I was

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Speaker 4: saying earlier, this kind of traditional understanding of what ordination

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Speaker 4: means in the church. It's the first step towards something

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Speaker 4: that is much more radical and may extend to all

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Speaker 4: different parts of the church.

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Speaker 1: Well, this is a good segue to a piece of

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Speaker 1: video I want to share with you, Father, The Secretary

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Speaker 1: General of the sin had released a video on their

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Speaker 1: social media and this is a fellow named Matt Krash.

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Speaker 2: He's from Chicago.

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Speaker 1: He's a member of the Bishop's Young Adult Multicultural Advisory Committee,

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Speaker 1: and he's the sonatyl coordinator for the Diocese of Gary.

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Speaker 5: Watch for Cinidality to really take roots, you must realize

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Speaker 5: it's not just an organizational exercise, but that is really

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Speaker 5: a movement of the heart. So we're working to develop

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Speaker 5: resources and ways for people to enter into the spirituality

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Speaker 5: of sinidality, so that can begin with the interior version

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Speaker 5: of the heart and spread to our larger structures and

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Speaker 5: our organization as church.

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Speaker 1: Father, I always recoil when anybody starts talking about remaking

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Speaker 1: structures as church.

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Speaker 2: The Church is the body of Christ.

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Speaker 1: But what is the spirituality of sinidelity any ideas?

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Speaker 3: I have no idea except that I think it's a

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Speaker 3: mask for revolutionary activity. And in one of the documents

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Speaker 3: in this interim report, it refers to overcoming or to

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Speaker 3: the nature of resistance. Now, as soon as you say

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Speaker 3: someone with whom you're in dialogue is resisting you, then

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Speaker 3: you're basically saying you're not taking orders.

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Speaker 2: You have to do that.

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Speaker 3: When you say we have to have a conversion of heart,

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Speaker 3: what they're basically implying is some people don't love this stuff,

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Speaker 3: and they just start loving it, and when they do,

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Speaker 3: then we can all go on and change the structures.

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Speaker 3: And by the way, we as Catholics do not refer

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Speaker 3: to the church as a structure, and we don't refer

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Speaker 3: to the hierarchy as a structure. The doctrinal herodag is

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Speaker 3: not a structure. You want to talk about what the

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Speaker 3: church is. It's the mystical body of Christ, and Jesus

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Speaker 3: himself rules the church through the hierarchy. The church is

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Speaker 3: not ruled by the people electing Jesus to be in charge.

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Speaker 3: And the implication seems to be that we're at fault

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Speaker 3: if not everyone has to say and how the church

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Speaker 3: is governed. That's why I think this it's a manipulative tone,

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Speaker 3: by the way, to tell people your heart isn't ready

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Speaker 3: to accept what we're talking about. Leave that to me

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Speaker 3: to decide. Convince my brain as bet as you can

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Speaker 3: that your arguments hold water. And that really is what

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Speaker 3: I think we need to do. So that man, who

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Speaker 3: seems to be a very nice man, I applaud the

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Speaker 3: work he's doing for the church. But this is not

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Speaker 3: what sinidality should be. Sinidality, by the way, is a

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Speaker 3: meeting of bishops in order to advise the pope. That's

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Speaker 3: what sinidality is, according to the Second Vatican Council.

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Speaker 2: Not to this.

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Speaker 1: We've expanded this, Bob, we've expanded this thing into I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's basically silly putting. Now, now we have a spirituality

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Speaker 1: of sinidality with all due respect, what the hell does

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Speaker 1: that mean?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, this language about the heart, I mean,

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Speaker 4: Father is quite right. They're more or less telling you

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Speaker 4: you're heard hearted, you're rigid, you're not you're not willing

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Speaker 4: to accept the church of what's happening now. And this

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Speaker 4: language about the heart is actually a traditional language. You

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Speaker 4: see it in Saint Augustine. Unquiet is our heart until

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Speaker 4: it rests in thee. So the heart is actually directed

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Speaker 4: toward Christ. It's not directed towards cinidality or in Cardinal Newman.

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Speaker 4: Cardinal Newman, our recent doctor of the church, talks about cordlock,

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Speaker 4: which our heart speaks to heart. But what they mean

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Speaker 4: by that is something quite different than this. I mean,

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Speaker 4: we're in this kind of conversation and this guy does

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Speaker 4: seem to be a decent human being.

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Speaker 2: Oh he's a nice man. He means fault him.

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Speaker 4: But the heart here seems to be involved in a

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Speaker 4: kind of a political for me, you know, almost like

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Speaker 4: a struggle I don't want to say quite struggle session

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Speaker 4: in the communist sense. But there's a sense that somehow

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Speaker 4: sinidelity ought to be moving you in a certain direction.

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Speaker 4: It says, if no one ever talked to anyone else

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Speaker 4: before cinidality was put out, you know, formally, is what

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Speaker 4: the form of the church should be today and forever.

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Speaker 4: And so you know, it's unfortunate, but we can use

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Speaker 4: language of the heart. But the language of the heart,

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Speaker 4: as in the tradition in Augustine and Newman has to

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Speaker 4: be the heart that's being converted. We never hear in

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Speaker 4: these documents about what is the purpose of Christianity? What

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Speaker 4: did God become man to overcome our fall? The sin

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Speaker 4: that is in us and redeem us? Where is that

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Speaker 4: in any of these documents that I actually I actually

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Speaker 4: put a word search. I search for this term sin

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Speaker 4: in these documents, and it comes up in combinations of

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Speaker 4: words that have sin in them, like sincere or so.

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Speaker 4: The words sin as such never appears, redeem never appears,

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Speaker 4: salvation never appears. So whatever this heart is isn't it

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Speaker 4: isn't much pushing what the very purpose of Christianity and

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Speaker 4: God's incarnation in the world was all about.

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Speaker 1: Well, and spirituality points to an object, the sacred heart

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Speaker 1: of Jesus, Marian spirituality, eucharistic spirituality, a sinatyl spirituality. So

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Speaker 1: listening and talking is now its own spirituality. There's something

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Speaker 1: very odd that's being created before our eyes.

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Speaker 2: And I think we've been.

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Speaker 1: Talking about this for years, But as it tries to

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Speaker 1: concretize itself, it's getting more and more I guess, absurd,

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Speaker 1: as it gets closer to hardening.

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Speaker 2: According to W.

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Speaker 1: T AND's Hannah Brakhovs, one of these sonatyl study groups,

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Speaker 1: no doubt, acting as church, attempted to survey lay people

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Speaker 1: on how to enhance their participation in the selection Catholic bishops.

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Speaker 2: Quote.

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Speaker 1: In total, fifteen out of thirty three late persons responded.

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Speaker 1: These groups will continue to meet and deliberate into twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty six.

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Speaker 2: Is anyone paying attention, father, and is this the role

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Speaker 2: of the laity to participate in the selection of Catholic bishops.

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Speaker 3: Well, in the historical evolution of the Church, the selection

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Speaker 3: of bishops did involve at certain periods popular acclamation, but

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Speaker 3: that was at the very beginning of the church and

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Speaker 3: before the hierarchical structures were established and all the rest.

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Speaker 3: Over time, kings and potentates took over the naming of

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Speaker 3: bishops and that caused the investiture controversy, a big problem

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Speaker 3: in the Middle Ages. At the Council of Trent, reforms

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Speaker 3: were put in and the Holy See began a much

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Speaker 3: more vigorous prosecution. Let's say of the case that the

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Speaker 3: Roman pontiffs should name bishops in the Latin Church and

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Speaker 3: approve them in the Eastern Catholic churches. So why would

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Speaker 3: lay people be involved in this selection of bishops as

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Speaker 3: a canon law, I can say they're involved in as

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Speaker 3: much as they're consulted. And I think it is a

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Speaker 3: good idea about if you have a candidate for bishop,

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Speaker 3: that the Holy See sent confidential surveys to lay people

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Speaker 3: in addition to priests in order to gaine the character

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Speaker 3: and knowledge and experience of a man. But the idea

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Speaker 3: that you would allow groups of lay people to publicly

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Speaker 3: get involved in their diocese to naming bishops, that will

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Speaker 3: be chaotic. But that's in there. And this is a

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Speaker 3: problem because, by the way, many bishops are not from

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Speaker 3: the diocese that they get named to, because the Holy

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Speaker 3: See and its wisdom and experience has determined that in

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Speaker 3: many cases it's better to bring a priest or a

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Speaker 3: bishop from elsewhere into the diocese. So if I can

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Speaker 3: just make a sidebar, I've said it all along. The

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Speaker 3: goal of senidality is lay governance in the church, and

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Speaker 3: lay governance in the church contradicts the hierarchical nature of

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Speaker 3: the Church. The Church is not an association of like

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Speaker 3: minded people who decide that we want to set up

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Speaker 3: a structure with pope, bishops and priests, but that it's

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Speaker 3: us doing the work it's the other way around. God

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Speaker 3: established the church, he named the shepherds, he named the

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Speaker 3: chief shepherd, the apostles, who ordained their successors and priests,

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Speaker 3: and the power of governance is an aspect of pastoral care.

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Speaker 3: It's not essentially about who gets to make decisions. It's

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Speaker 3: about God through the Holy Spirit, guiding the chosen and

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Speaker 3: ordained men who served the church. And the fact that

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Speaker 3: women can't participate in it. Don't blame the church, blame

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Speaker 3: God because Jesus never picked a woman to be a bishop,

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Speaker 3: priest or deacon.

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Speaker 2: That's it.

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Speaker 3: That's nothing against women. Women run the world in my opinion.

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Speaker 1: All right, well in many cases that they run the

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Speaker 1: parishes to Father and the face it.

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Speaker 3: I deal with more women volunteers in my forty years

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Speaker 3: of the priesthood than any of the people would believe.

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Speaker 3: Getting a man to help a parish priest, you know,

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Speaker 3: that's like selling ice to Eskimodes is not that easy.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know what, but it needs to happen if

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Speaker 1: men should be more involved in parish life, and I

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Speaker 1: hope in time they will. Otherwise this whole thing's going

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Speaker 1: to turn into like a some kind of pseudo parliament.

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Speaker 2: You know called the SONADL way, and I don't.

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Speaker 1: I guess the priest becomes an employee of the Sonadl

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Speaker 1: council meeting in you know, the.

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Speaker 2: San Hadrian meeting in the parish.

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Speaker 1: All but there's a related story here and it's typical

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Speaker 1: of all things SONADL.

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Speaker 2: Infovaticano dot com.

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Speaker 1: Reports this week, and we've seen this in person, guys,

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Speaker 1: we saw this during the conclavet Saint Peter's Basilica is

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Speaker 1: recently set up what it calls listening spaces inside the basilica.

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Speaker 2: Here's a photo.

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Speaker 1: I'm senior in charge of the maintenance of Saint Peter says.

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Speaker 1: The listening spaces are available to worshippers and visitors. They

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Speaker 1: provide quote, a place for dialogue and spiritual accompaniment, offering

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Speaker 1: everyone the opportunity to quote, pause and be listened to,

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Speaker 1: whether by priests, nuns, or lay people trained in pastoral service. Bob,

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Speaker 1: weren't these things once called confessionals?

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Speaker 4: Well, I've been to confession several times in Saint Peter's

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Speaker 4: and it's a great experience. It's actually very crowded too.

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Speaker 4: It's very hard to get into those confession booths at times,

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Speaker 4: especially during years like this when you had to jail

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Speaker 4: going on well, I mean, one of the look it's

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Speaker 4: it's not entirely wrong what they're saying that they're trying

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Speaker 4: to do. But if you look at those so called,

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Speaker 4: I don't know, reception booths, and a priest i know

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Speaker 4: said to me they kind of look like a men's

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Speaker 4: toilet in an airport. You know, they're they're they're white,

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Speaker 4: and they've got this funny kind of configuration. It doesn't

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Speaker 4: seem to fit at all in Saint Peter's, in that

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Speaker 4: beautiful baroque splendor of Saint Peter's. I mean, if you

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Speaker 4: wanted to have this, there could probably be another way

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Speaker 4: to do it. And they're kind of sitting out, it seems,

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Speaker 4: in the middle of nowhere. And this is very inviting.

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Speaker 4: I'm in general in favor of these days of trying

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Speaker 4: to get people to talk with people in the church,

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Speaker 4: and that that that impulse is not necessarily a bad thing.

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Speaker 4: But the way this is being carried out it kind

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Speaker 4: of strikes me is we've kind of lost this sense

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Speaker 4: of Catholicity, the depth of what Catholicity is, the beauty

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Speaker 4: of it, the richness of how you approach people. It's

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Speaker 4: at the same kind of superficial level that everything else

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Speaker 4: in society is taking place in and you can you

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Speaker 4: actually convey a lot to people by the way things

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Speaker 4: look and the way you approach them as much as

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Speaker 4: what you actually say to them. So I applaud the effort,

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Speaker 4: but I don't applaud the actual execution of what.

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Speaker 1: The father If they're not Sonadal confessionals, I mean, can't

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Speaker 1: people be listened to it? Other institutions that predate sonatas

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Speaker 1: speak like a coffee shopper on the street.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I mean I agree with Bob the impulse,

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Speaker 3: I think is good to listen to people, But why

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Speaker 3: don't you simply deploy priests, nuns or brothers who are

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Speaker 3: visibly identifiably you know, missionaries of the church at the

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Speaker 3: entrance to Saint Peter's are in the back and say,

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Speaker 3: would you like to talk about what this is? You

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Speaker 3: like to talk about Christ in the church. But you know,

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Speaker 3: the danger here will be, of course, that this will

437
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:31,119
Speaker 3: become like the complaint department or the free counseling department.

438
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:34,240
Speaker 3: And then what about the language issue? I mean, who's

439
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:36,640
Speaker 3: going to be able to do all that? And You're right,

440
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:41,240
Speaker 3: Bob's pound point is profound. How things look communicate what

441
00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:45,679
Speaker 3: you're doing, and those basically they ape kind of like

442
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 3: a semi private confessional. But this but with the twenties

443
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 3: first century, look, I thought we were in this Bacilica

444
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 3: Saint Peter's. I mean, they could have done something a

445
00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:01,639
Speaker 3: little better. But no, let's let's see where it goes.

446
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,119
Speaker 3: But I think other means could be better.

447
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:06,760
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I just don't know why you have a

448
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 1: listening station in the middle of an aisle with tourists

449
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:13,720
Speaker 1: packing in to see the Pieta. I mean, well, it's

450
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 1: literally steps away from that. It's right near the Blessed

451
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:20,920
Speaker 1: Sacrament chapel there at Saint Peter's. So it's an odd placement,

452
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,480
Speaker 1: but it's a weird thing to have, Like you can't

453
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:25,000
Speaker 1: listen outside of this box.

454
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:26,159
Speaker 2: I don't understand that.

455
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:29,040
Speaker 4: But anyway, I mean that's another small point. If you

456
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:31,359
Speaker 4: look at the pictures of that, on the outside, the

457
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,840
Speaker 4: sign says welcome in Italian and in English. Yeah, so

458
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 4: already it's like, you know, we've kind of reduced things

459
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,399
Speaker 4: down to these two languages, which we know are actually

460
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 4: quite important and we probably want to talk at some

461
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,480
Speaker 4: point among ourselves about the use of English that the

462
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:51,359
Speaker 4: Pope is not practicing, even when he's talking to movie

463
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 4: stars from California and others who don't really speak Italian

464
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 4: and say, hey, that was wonderful, but I didn't understand

465
00:25:58,320 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 4: a word.

466
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 1: He said, yeah, well we should touch on that, and

467
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,199
Speaker 1: this is about the Pope speaking out, so maybe we

468
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 1: can circle back to that. Pope Leo this week once

469
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 1: again exiting Costal Gondolfo in what's becoming the papal plane

470
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 1: ride to Pope Francis. Pope Leo uses this exit from

471
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:18,920
Speaker 1: Costal Gondolfo each week to address.

472
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:19,440
Speaker 2: The press gaggle.

473
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 1: He did so this week about the situation of Christians

474
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 1: in Nigeria, given the attention paid to it by President

475
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 1: Trump and the Secretary of what Pete Hegseeth.

476
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:31,919
Speaker 2: The Pope said this.

477
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:36,720
Speaker 6: I think in Nigeria, in certain areas, there is certainly

478
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,760
Speaker 6: danger for Christians, but for all people. Christians and Muslims

479
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 6: have been slaughtered. There's a question of terrorism. There's a

480
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 6: question of that has to do a lot with economics,

481
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:50,120
Speaker 6: if you will, in control of the lands that they have. Unfortunately,

482
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 6: many Christians have died and I think it's very important

483
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 6: to seek away the government with all peoples to promote

484
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 6: authentic religion freedom.

485
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:03,440
Speaker 2: Bob, you followed this story for a long time.

486
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:08,120
Speaker 1: Your reaction to Leo's comments here and does the genocide

487
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 1: we're seeing in Nigeria, does it have a lot to

488
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:12,440
Speaker 1: do with economics and control of the land.

489
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:15,680
Speaker 4: I don't believe, so, you know, I've said this before,

490
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:20,399
Speaker 4: but everything he said is true. It's true that some Muslims,

491
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 4: a moderate so called moderate Muslims are being slaughtered by

492
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 4: the radical groups like Boko Haram and the Islamic State

493
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 4: in Western and Western Africa Province and others, you know,

494
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 4: And there's that problem. There's also a problem of a

495
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 4: land clash between cattle raisers who tend to be Muslim

496
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 4: and farmers who tend to be Christian. But all this

497
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:45,240
Speaker 4: is really a side issue. If it's true that Muslims

498
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:49,639
Speaker 4: are killed in Nigeria, and it's true, the proportion is

499
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:53,160
Speaker 4: probably six times is great for Christians, and the Christian

500
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 4: element is really pursued. I mean, churches are burned, schools

501
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 4: are ransacked, children are kidnapped. These are all things that

502
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 4: I think the church has to point to specifically. Now,

503
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,399
Speaker 4: Leo was trying to spread some oil on the waters

504
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:10,679
Speaker 4: and calm things down, and we understand that that's what

505
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 4: it is about. But we've been losing really not only

506
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,639
Speaker 4: a defense of our own people, but it's a bold

507
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 4: statement of the truth of what's going on there, that

508
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 4: there is a tremendous slaughter of Christians going on. Probably

509
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:27,439
Speaker 4: in this year alone, ten thousand Christians will be killed

510
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:29,639
Speaker 4: in Nigeria, more than in all the rest of the

511
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 4: world combined. And the statistics are hard to find, but

512
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 4: I think that that's the most legitimate kind of the

513
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 4: range finding of where it's about. And we really ought

514
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 4: to say that. I think we need church leaders, not

515
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 4: only people like me and you, Raymond and others, but

516
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 4: church leaders need to say, hey, wait a minute, our

517
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:51,760
Speaker 4: people are being slaughtered there, and they can't spread out

518
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 4: the blame with all these other things. Climent they even

519
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 4: invoke climate change. Is if climate change is a major

520
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 4: factor and Christians being martyred, it's preposterous.

521
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 1: Now, and Father the Pope did mention terrorism, but again

522
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 1: this is like George Bush mentioning terrorism. There are people

523
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 1: who are agents of the terrorism and unless you're willing

524
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 1: to identify them. You can't fight an idea, you have

525
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 1: to fight against an aggressor.

526
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 3: No, it's very true, and it's interesting because the Pope

527
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:22,040
Speaker 3: at the end of it brings up the topic of

528
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 3: religious liberty. But in the first part of his statement

529
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 3: he says, this isn't really about religion because both sides

530
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 3: are being killed. By implication, he means the Christians being

531
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 3: killed by Muslims, Muslims by Christians. Well, Christians are not

532
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 3: killing the Muslims, as Bob says, it's moderate Muslims because

533
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 3: Bokoharram their first enemy is moderate Islamic people, and Christians

534
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 3: fall into that category. And then you know, secondly, if

535
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 3: I can go back to just even the premise, I

536
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 3: think Pope Leo is diving into some very troubled warders

537
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 3: here by giving these weekly or bi weekly press conferences.

538
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 3: Because the media, they will cover the Catholic Church when

539
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:00,720
Speaker 3: it's in their interest and what is in their interest

540
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 3: fresh news of a controversial nature. And if Pope Leo

541
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 3: keeps meeting on this regular basis, and let me say this,

542
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 3: I'll praise him for taking a day off. The reason

543
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 3: he's in Galca. Gondolpho is They've got a tennis court

544
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 3: there and a swimming pool. And I'm a priest, and

545
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 3: I know priests are under a lot of pressure. The

546
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 3: Pope is under enormous pressure. He needs a day off.

547
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 3: But make it a complete day off. Don't talk to

548
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 3: the media. And when you want to make a press conference,

549
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 3: well then do it on your own terms. Don't do

550
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 3: it at night with cameras and lights and you're standing

551
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:32,959
Speaker 3: there and you can hear the report and you got

552
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 3: to jump from languages. Do it yourself in the Apostolic palace.

553
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 3: Have the questions given, and know what the answers are

554
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 3: going to be ahead of time because you're able to

555
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 3: study them. The great trap here is someone says something,

556
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 3: the Pope says something that he didn't expect, you know,

557
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 3: and it gives an answer that wasn't expected. At boom,

558
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 3: you got a major world controversy. We don't need that.

559
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 3: That's not what I think the post should do.

560
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, and Bob, his father, alludes to there.

561
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 1: I mean the Pope's comments are being used with a

562
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 1: political end in the United States and globally.

563
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 2: I mean he was asked his thoughts in.

564
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 1: The same press or in the same press gaggle on

565
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 1: his way out of cost of Gondolfo. He's asked about

566
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 1: the immigration controversy in the United States. Now, the right

567
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 1: answer is, oh, the US bishops are taking care of that.

568
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 2: God bless you all. That's the right answer.

569
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 1: But in light of the US bishop's statement on the

570
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 1: US immigration enforcement at their full meeting last week, which

571
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 1: we covered, here's what the Pope said.

572
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 6: I appreciate very much what the bishops have said. I

573
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 6: think it's a very important statement. I would invite especially

574
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 6: all Catholics, but people of goodwill to listen carefully to

575
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 6: what they said. I think we have to look for

576
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 6: ways of treating people humanly, treating people with the dignity

577
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 6: that they have. If people are in the United States illegally,

578
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 6: there are ways to treat that. There are courts, there's

579
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 6: a system of justice. I think there are are a

580
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 6: lot of problems in the system. No one has said

581
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 6: that the United States should have open borders. I think

582
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 6: every country has a right to determine who and how

583
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 6: and when people enter. But when people are living good lives,

584
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 6: and many of them for ten, fifteen, twenty years, to

585
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 6: treat them in a way that is extremely disrespectful, Bob.

586
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,480
Speaker 1: He seems to be echoing the royal doctrine on this

587
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 1: that you've been articulating here for several weeks. If they've

588
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 1: been here for ten or twenty years, we should do

589
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 1: something as opposed to people who just came into the country.

590
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 2: But why is he getting into immigration policy at all?

591
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, climate and immigration. We know that those are

592
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 4: the two things that every recent pope is or at

593
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 4: least the pastory popes have considered to be really high

594
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 4: profile things that they need to address. And look, I

595
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 4: wanted to defend myself here because Ronald Reagan said the

596
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 4: same thing back in the nineteen eighties. People who've been

597
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 4: I put it this way, the people who have been

598
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:06,560
Speaker 4: allowed into the country and have lived here for years,

599
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 4: our country has a certain moral responsibility towards them because

600
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 4: now they have families, they have friends, jobs, you know,

601
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,719
Speaker 4: they're kind of integrated into the society. It's a problem.

602
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 4: And I've been telling the bishops this for years. They've

603
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 4: invited me a couple of times to speak to them

604
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 4: about this. And you know, at that point, since we

605
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 4: now do have a moral responsibility, I think that the

606
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 4: more recent people who were just let in in hordes

607
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 4: by the Biden administration and particularly the criminals. I mean,

608
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 4: that's an entirely different class of people. I think we

609
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 4: have to figure out in our political debates what to

610
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 4: do about them. The criminals should absolutely go. And look,

611
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 4: it's easy, We've said this before. It's easy to put

612
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 4: together video clips that show our enforcement being pretty rough.

613
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 4: Tom Homan is a pretty rough character, but you've got

614
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 4: to be a rough character to deal with these criminals

615
00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 4: who are just monsters. I mean, they're human trafficking, they're

616
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,959
Speaker 4: drug trafficking, they're murderers, et cetera. That that's not just

617
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 4: a hype by Trump. That's the reality on the ground.

618
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 4: And so I don't think that I think our bishops

619
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 4: tried to be balanced that they talked in the same

620
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:17,280
Speaker 4: terms about the country has a right to control its borders,

621
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 4: but how about controlling who is in the country illegally

622
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 4: At the same time. I'm all for being compassionate and

623
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:27,280
Speaker 4: trying to work these things up, but look, our court

624
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 4: system is already overwhelmed with the number of illegals that

625
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 4: there are in the country. So what Leo said is

626
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 4: true in an ideal world, but in the United States,

627
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:39,879
Speaker 4: right now, because of failures on the part of our

628
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:43,239
Speaker 4: own government, we don't have that luxury. We really have

629
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 4: to deal with the situation in a way that is

630
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 4: a little bit unusual. But what else are you going

631
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,879
Speaker 4: to do when you have ten million illegals suddenly coming

632
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:56,840
Speaker 4: into a country and it's unprecedented the situation that we

633
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,839
Speaker 4: find ourselves in. So look, he's waiting into something that's

634
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 4: very complicated. As our bishops have they mean, well, but

635
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,240
Speaker 4: I'm not sure they've taken the full measure of the problem.

636
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, father, I mean that's the real when you

637
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:15,400
Speaker 1: say we need to treat immigrants humanely, putting them in

638
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 1: servitude to a cartel that brought them here, that they

639
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 1: paid through the nose to get to our shores, there's

640
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 1: nothing humane about that. And allowing lawlessness and people to

641
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:28,840
Speaker 1: just overstay visas and take resources from the people that

642
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,799
Speaker 1: have paid into the system, or our American poor that

643
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 1: need these resources, that's not humane, that's not treating people humanly.

644
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 1: I mean, the Pope did mention every country has the

645
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 1: right to determine who and how and when people enter.

646
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 1: So the question is why are they so focused then

647
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 1: on aliens coming into the United States and aiding them

648
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 1: in flouting the US law.

649
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 3: Well, I'm not sure you know all of the motivations,

650
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 3: but I can say that, yeah, we want humane treatment.

651
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,920
Speaker 3: But the answer is arresting someone who has illegally entered

652
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:00,800
Speaker 3: the country overstated their visa. Is that an innu main action?

653
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 3: And I say it's not. Now as regards you Maine actions,

654
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 3: the federal government has voluntary repatriation, which they'll pay for

655
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:10,759
Speaker 3: your flight back to your country, and they will not

656
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:15,960
Speaker 3: prohibit you from reapplying for illegal entrance. For me, that's

657
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 3: extremely humane. The United States could have basically said, nobody

658
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,320
Speaker 3: gets out of here on our dime. We're going to

659
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:24,319
Speaker 3: arrest you and then we'll ship you out in our

660
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 3: cargo plane. Kind of arrangements, you know, which we saw

661
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:31,360
Speaker 3: when all those criminals were sent down to El Salvador. No,

662
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 3: we're saying we'll put you on a flight, you can

663
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 3: go to your house. Now. I agree with Bob that

664
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:39,760
Speaker 3: it considering the cases on a mere fifteen twenty years

665
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:43,839
Speaker 3: should be different than someone who was arrived here as

666
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 3: part of a drug cartel or something like that. But

667
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 3: those are specifics that require the people who run the

668
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:54,840
Speaker 3: country to be lobbied and vote for and all the rest,

669
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:56,920
Speaker 3: and to just simply say, well, since they've been here

670
00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,799
Speaker 3: twenty years, please don't arrest them. No, that's how you

671
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:02,840
Speaker 3: can the situation. And you know, I remember the Reagan

672
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 3: thing that Bob spoke about, and what were people doing.

673
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 3: They were trying to prove they're here that long. But

674
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 3: what it did was it propelled a whole other generation

675
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,720
Speaker 3: of people to cross the border because they were incentivized

676
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,319
Speaker 3: by the idea that they could be illegally present in

677
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:18,359
Speaker 3: the country and not be evicted. Right, So these are

678
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 3: the kind of complications that happen. And then you know,

679
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:23,239
Speaker 3: with all due respect to the Holy Father and the

680
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 3: Holy See, the Vatican City state does not have a

681
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 3: refugee program. They do not have an illegal alien problem

682
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:33,279
Speaker 3: because it's illegal to remain in the country. You have

683
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 3: to be sympathetic and say, if it doesn't work in

684
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:38,360
Speaker 3: Vatican City, it's not going to work in other places.

685
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:41,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, And their fines and jail time attached to breaking

686
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:46,680
Speaker 1: acrossing the Vatican City's borders and doing so illegally.

687
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,560
Speaker 2: So, I mean, it's very odd.

688
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 1: This whole scene is very odd, and how it's become

689
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 1: the overarching teaching, if you will, eating up all of

690
00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:01,320
Speaker 1: this public space by the Holy Father and the bishops.

691
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:04,640
Speaker 1: They want this to be, for whatever reason, the centerpiece

692
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 1: of Catholic thought and articulation. And I just think people

693
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 1: are hurting and yearning for something far deeper, far more profound,

694
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 1: and something that touches their lives, mainly Jesus Christ and

695
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:19,960
Speaker 1: his sealvific message. I wasn't going to do this story

696
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 1: at all, but I have to do it because it

697
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 1: was covered so widely in the media this week. Pope

698
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:28,040
Speaker 1: Leo hosted a luncheon for the Jubilee of the Poor

699
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 1: on November sixteenth, and in attendance were forty eight transgender women.

700
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:37,279
Speaker 1: That's what the Washington Post described these people as. Now,

701
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:41,320
Speaker 1: this carries on a tradition established by Pope Francis years ago.

702
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:45,320
Speaker 1: The controversy, according to the Washington Post, is that none

703
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 1: of these forty eight people were seated at the main

704
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:51,799
Speaker 1: table with the Pope as they had been in years past. Father,

705
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 1: your thoughts on this story and the outreach to the trans.

706
00:38:55,400 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 3: Community, Well, you know, this is a complicated story because

707
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 3: because it goes back to Pope Francis, and there is

708
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 3: a nun who works with basically male transvestites who are

709
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 3: often in prostitution, and she's trying to help them, but

710
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 3: their help does not extend to them renouncing this myth

711
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 3: that you can turn yourself into a woman by dressing

712
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:20,799
Speaker 3: up and changing your hair and makeup. Now, apparently this

713
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:24,120
Speaker 3: group was invited by a parish priest who does similar work,

714
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:27,240
Speaker 3: and I understand that the Holy See gave out tickets

715
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 3: to parishes and groups and that they was up to

716
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:31,080
Speaker 3: them to who they were going to invite. So it

717
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 3: wasn't so much that the Holy See was giving a

718
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:36,400
Speaker 3: direct invitation, but it was all in the media that

719
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 3: they were coming, and the Holy See basically said, all right,

720
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:42,880
Speaker 3: bring them here. That's a lack of charity. They do

721
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 3: not these people who are involved in sexual immorality, illegal

722
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:55,359
Speaker 3: behavior with prostitution, and then just destructive self misidentification to say,

723
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 3: if I dress like a woman, you have to treat

724
00:39:57,120 --> 00:39:57,840
Speaker 3: me like a woman.

725
00:39:58,280 --> 00:39:58,799
Speaker 4: I want to.

726
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 3: Treat you the way God made you, which is you're

727
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:04,799
Speaker 3: son of God, and the sons of God don't act

728
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 3: in this way. The Holy Scene needs to do more

729
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:11,560
Speaker 3: of that. So yeah, again, just the overall thing, and

730
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:14,840
Speaker 3: you were referring to it. People look to the Vatican

731
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:17,120
Speaker 3: to find the kind of stuff the Mother Angelica and

732
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 3: other broadcasters of the Catholic faith have been giving for

733
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:22,839
Speaker 3: the last fifty years, which is, how do I get

734
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:24,800
Speaker 3: to heaven and how do I have a good life

735
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:27,440
Speaker 3: on the way. That's what we need to be talking about,

736
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:30,880
Speaker 3: not how do we satisfy the agenda of the United Nations,

737
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:35,719
Speaker 3: the European Union, the sexual revolution, the trans revolution, all

738
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:38,479
Speaker 3: of this stuff. People are fed up with this. Why

739
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 3: is it that Catholic parents have to deal with local

740
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 3: school boards when men go into girls' locker rooms. Well,

741
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:48,239
Speaker 3: it happens because authority figures in the world say this

742
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:50,879
Speaker 3: is good. And when the Church doesn't contradict them, they

743
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:53,760
Speaker 3: smile and they say, look, even your pope has transvestites

744
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 3: coming here. They don't go on transvestites, they're call them transgender.

745
00:40:56,960 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 3: So the pope can have lunch with the transgender Why

746
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 3: can't your daughter have a trend in her locker room?

747
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:03,040
Speaker 3: That's how these people argue.

748
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:06,480
Speaker 1: Bob Any reaction to this story, I mean, boy, it

749
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 1: got a lot of coverage.

750
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,440
Speaker 4: First of all, I want to say, of a party,

751
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 4: amen to what fathers just said, it leaves it leaves

752
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 4: you almost speechless, doesn't doesn't it. You know, I read

753
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:23,840
Speaker 4: some reports that some of these trans women were activists,

754
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:27,760
Speaker 4: and this to me always seems to be a problem

755
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:31,160
Speaker 4: because Pope Francis, I think when he would meet with

756
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:33,720
Speaker 4: trans people thought he was it was like Jesus meeting

757
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:36,719
Speaker 4: with tax collectors and prostitutes. That these are people who

758
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:39,319
Speaker 4: are outcast, and so he's trying to draw them in.

759
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:41,719
Speaker 4: And I mean, we could have hoped that he was

760
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 4: evangelizing them, but you know, who knows where that actually went.

761
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 4: But just the media reaction to this is quite interesting.

762
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:54,400
Speaker 4: The fact that these trans people, whatever we want to

763
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:57,960
Speaker 4: call them, were not seated at the head table with

764
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:01,440
Speaker 4: the Pope Is. He was regarded by them as some

765
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 4: kind of outrage, and it was reported as such in

766
00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:08,120
Speaker 4: the media of it. You know, they they get the

767
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:10,880
Speaker 4: impression that they have a right to be at the table,

768
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 4: and that to me is the bigger problem than the

769
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 4: just the fact of that they're being there, Because the

770
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:21,399
Speaker 4: activists are not simply people who are being evangelized. They

771
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,120
Speaker 4: come with an agenda, and so the fact that they

772
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:26,319
Speaker 4: are in the room and then maybe they're sitting at

773
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 4: the head table with the Pope. They kind of regard

774
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:32,040
Speaker 4: this as a validation, as father rightly says, and so

775
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:35,000
Speaker 4: that spreads out into society. The media love to run

776
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:39,040
Speaker 4: with stories like this. This creates a moral confusion in

777
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 4: an attempt to do something that's generous, and you know,

778
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 4: reaching out to the marginal creates a moral confusion that

779
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:49,840
Speaker 4: really it kind of echoes throughout the entire church. So

780
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:55,440
Speaker 4: I think if Leo wants to bring clarity and decorum

781
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 4: back to the church, which he could clearly talks about,

782
00:42:58,440 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 4: one of the things he has to do is to

783
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:02,920
Speaker 4: get events like this, get a grip on events like this.

784
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:05,319
Speaker 4: And it's not going to be easy because there are

785
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:09,880
Speaker 4: these There seems to be an attempt to point fingers

786
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 4: that it's other people who are responsible for this, and

787
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:14,960
Speaker 4: I guess it's true in this instance, but you need

788
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:16,319
Speaker 4: to get a grip on this. I mean, you don't

789
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:17,919
Speaker 4: need to kind of send the message to the people

790
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:20,239
Speaker 4: who are putting those tickets out and the people who

791
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:23,400
Speaker 4: were distributing them to say, yeah, okay, there's a limit

792
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 4: though on who we are going to allow into the room.

793
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, look, we talked about this earlier My

794
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 1: concern is you're in the business of saving souls, and

795
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:39,279
Speaker 1: you're allowing your public capital, if you will, to be

796
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 1: gobbled up by people hijacking your agenda, like this story,

797
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 1: which is a non story as far as I'm concerned.

798
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:46,880
Speaker 2: When I first read it, I'm like, who cares?

799
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 1: But you have activists who are friends in newsrooms who

800
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 1: are willing to cover this stuff, So it gets blown

801
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:55,759
Speaker 1: up into a different meaning. So the Pope had a

802
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 1: dinner with poor people and it turns into a disc

803
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 1: for a group that felt they should be at the

804
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:05,279
Speaker 1: head table. But I think somehow the narrative is being

805
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:08,759
Speaker 1: lost by the Church and the Pope in this jubilee year,

806
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 1: and everybody else is using them to promote climate change

807
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:18,279
Speaker 1: and immigration enforcement and sexual agendas. Last weekend, popely O

808
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 1: met with members of the film industry there Spike Lee

809
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:24,719
Speaker 1: and Kate Blanchett and others, and he told them, your

810
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 1: job as storytellers is to rediscover a portion of the

811
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:32,360
Speaker 1: hope that is essential for humanity to live to the fullest.

812
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:35,560
Speaker 1: Father the Pope called these artists to tell stories of redemption.

813
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:38,799
Speaker 1: But what was your reaction to his overall message?

814
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:41,400
Speaker 3: I read the message and I had to say the

815
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:44,360
Speaker 3: message was full of praise for an industry that promotes

816
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:47,680
Speaker 3: immorality on a regular basis, and there was no rebuke

817
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:51,120
Speaker 3: for the disedification and the scandal that's so wal from

818
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:52,840
Speaker 3: the company's Hollywood movies.

819
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 2: There was.

820
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:57,480
Speaker 3: I have to say, there was a sense that the

821
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:00,279
Speaker 3: Pope was like starstruck by having these people there. The

822
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:03,920
Speaker 3: talk was not fatherly and serious enough, from my opinion,

823
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:07,120
Speaker 3: because it went on with kind of speculations about the

824
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:09,879
Speaker 3: nature of the film industry and what it does. And

825
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 3: you know, datily, this was written by someone else, but

826
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:15,920
Speaker 3: you know, the Pope's reading it becomes his. Look, I

827
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 3: love movies. We've had over the years discussions about movies

828
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:22,800
Speaker 3: and music and all that. I mean, Broadway is wonderful.

829
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 3: I'm not against entertainment, but you know, growing up in

830
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:29,239
Speaker 3: the sixties and seventies as a kid, I said to

831
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 3: them myself, now, wait a minute, where is the movie

832
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:35,800
Speaker 3: industry going? And the movie industry the trajectory has been horrible.

833
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:38,720
Speaker 3: That's when X rated and R rated movies came into business.

834
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:43,880
Speaker 3: We know now that pornography is the biggest media reality

835
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 3: on a dollar term in the United States and in

836
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:49,200
Speaker 3: the world, and we have enormous resources being you know,

837
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:51,839
Speaker 3: poured into stuff that's drawing souls to hell.

838
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:53,920
Speaker 2: There was no reference to any of.

839
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:56,319
Speaker 3: That in the Pope's talk, so I think it could

840
00:45:56,360 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 3: have been done nicely or rebuked and say, you know,

841
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 3: talking about the integrity of the human person also means

842
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 3: we respect the nature of male female and the intimacy

843
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:09,640
Speaker 3: of marriage. These have to be respected in entertainment otherwise

844
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:12,800
Speaker 3: it's exploitative. And by the way, how much of Hollywood

845
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:14,680
Speaker 3: is now exploitative of different groups.

846
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:17,759
Speaker 1: Well, Bob, it's interesting that the Pope gave a list

847
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:20,839
Speaker 1: of his favorite movies. You know, none of them were

848
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:24,240
Speaker 1: before forty years ago. I mean, they're all ancient movies.

849
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:29,360
Speaker 1: I mean are two generations removed. And the other interesting

850
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:31,959
Speaker 1: thing is when you compare that address to John Paul

851
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:35,200
Speaker 1: the Second's Letter to Artists, which I remember he giving

852
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:38,239
Speaker 1: me a copy of, and when you read that, you

853
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 1: know he's calling you to be the next Michelangelo and

854
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:43,279
Speaker 1: Caravaggio and to draw you to the truths and the

855
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:44,239
Speaker 1: majesty and the.

856
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:48,440
Speaker 2: Mystery of God and his plan. That's not what this

857
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:49,319
Speaker 2: message was. It all.

858
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 1: This was basically about let's keep theaters open and no

859
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:52,520
Speaker 1: AI in movies.

860
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:54,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, I have to say, I'm not a movie fan,

861
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:58,440
Speaker 4: so afterything that I'm saying is I'm going to say

862
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:02,279
Speaker 4: is prejudiced by you know, starting from that premise. But yeah,

863
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:04,880
Speaker 4: I mean, look, he talked about, you know, very safe

864
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:10,160
Speaker 4: movies that he liked. It's a wonderful life and life beautiful. Yeah,

865
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:14,440
Speaker 4: you light, life is beautiful, and look that's great. I

866
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:18,560
Speaker 4: mean it's kind of anodyne, but it's it's fine, it's encertaining,

867
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:20,920
Speaker 4: you can watch it for a while. But I mean

868
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:23,120
Speaker 4: what we've had in movies since then, of course, has

869
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 4: been very very different. My wife and I when we

870
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:29,520
Speaker 4: go to the films, we instantly noticed there always has

871
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 4: to be a homosexual or a lesbian character, or a

872
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:36,359
Speaker 4: relationship or you know, something that is just a matter

873
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:38,560
Speaker 4: of course. It seems to be de rigueur for the

874
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:43,440
Speaker 4: the industry these days. Now. You know, you did, and

875
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:45,839
Speaker 4: you do invite people into your house, and to kind

876
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:49,240
Speaker 4: of rebuke them in a harsh way would be probably wrong.

877
00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:52,960
Speaker 4: But he could have really done more. It wasn't terrible,

878
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:56,320
Speaker 4: It just wasn't very good. It just didn't didn't didn't.

879
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:59,160
Speaker 4: It didn't give you an aspiration to anything higher, as

880
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:01,600
Speaker 4: you rightly say, Ram. And the difference is, I think

881
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:06,640
Speaker 4: that Pope John Paul the second was an actor and

882
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 4: he was a poet. He was a very good poet

883
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:11,080
Speaker 4: at times in his work. I've actually written a couple

884
00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:15,160
Speaker 4: of essays about him. So he understood the potential that

885
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:17,839
Speaker 4: exists in art in a way that I think very

886
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:20,600
Speaker 4: few others think. Better take an inkling of this as well,

887
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:24,840
Speaker 4: because he loved music so much. But they were different persons.

888
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 4: I don't think that Leo, at least as far as

889
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:31,080
Speaker 4: we can judge so far, is kind of in that category.

890
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:34,080
Speaker 4: So it's not surprising that either his ghost writer or

891
00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 4: he himself did not aspire tom more. But you're not right.

892
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:39,680
Speaker 4: I mean, look the great art that the Church has

893
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:44,160
Speaker 4: produced over centuries, and some of the participants talked about this,

894
00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 4: about the richness of the Catholic cultural tradition in addition

895
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:51,880
Speaker 4: to the spiritual, theological, moral tradition, is really quite remarkable.

896
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:53,880
Speaker 4: And that's what I think they were moved by just

897
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 4: being there whatever the pope said, because he spoke Italian

898
00:48:57,000 --> 00:48:59,520
Speaker 4: and they didn't understand what he was saying. Anyone.

899
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:03,120
Speaker 1: Well, that was I mean, that's what I frankly found annoying,

900
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:05,040
Speaker 1: because I think for a lot of those artists it

901
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:08,080
Speaker 1: would have been helpful to have his guidance. For instance,

902
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:11,400
Speaker 1: the thing I always noticed the violence in movies and

903
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:12,759
Speaker 1: on television.

904
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:13,880
Speaker 2: The reckless killing.

905
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:17,799
Speaker 1: You're teaching generations of children and young people get what

906
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 1: you want by killing people, and justice really comes through

907
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:24,440
Speaker 1: killing somebody. I mean, that's in almost every movie. There

908
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:28,040
Speaker 1: could have been something about that, about the need for redemption,

909
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:32,040
Speaker 1: possibility and citing great movies. None of that was really touched.

910
00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:33,879
Speaker 1: So I thought it was kind of, like you said,

911
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:36,799
Speaker 1: a missed opportunity. And maybe it's just that he's on

912
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:39,759
Speaker 1: the carousel of the Jubilee events that he can't get

913
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:43,160
Speaker 1: off and that Pope Francis program, and maybe these speeches

914
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:45,719
Speaker 1: have been written for months or years and he's just

915
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:48,680
Speaker 1: kind of working through the deck, praying that January will

916
00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 1: come quickly so he can move on and do what he.

917
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:52,520
Speaker 2: Needs to do. We'll see.

918
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:55,800
Speaker 1: Following last week's show on the rise of young people

919
00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:58,640
Speaker 1: returning to the Church, which if you haven't watched, you should,

920
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:03,680
Speaker 1: the New York Post is reporting that in New York City, Father,

921
00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:06,640
Speaker 1: they're seeing a spike in the number of converts becoming

922
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:09,640
Speaker 1: Catholic or wanting to become Catholic. The Post found that

923
00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:13,239
Speaker 1: multiple New York City Catholic churches have seen double or

924
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:17,239
Speaker 1: even triple the number of adults signing up convert classes

925
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:19,799
Speaker 1: in the past year or so. This trend seems to

926
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:23,480
Speaker 1: be following an overall increase nationwide, and The New York

927
00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:29,680
Speaker 1: Times reports this week a similar surge in Orthodox Christianity. Father,

928
00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:32,000
Speaker 1: you're a priest in the archdiocese. What do you make

929
00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:34,839
Speaker 1: of these trends? Are you hearing or seeing this from

930
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:35,680
Speaker 1: your brother priests?

931
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:39,600
Speaker 3: Well, I'm certainly seeing this in the parish is run

932
00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:42,719
Speaker 3: by the Dominican Fathers, because those are heavily featured in

933
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 3: this article. Of the Dominican Priests, the Order of Preachers.

934
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:50,799
Speaker 3: Saint Dominic founded the group. They're outstanding for their scholarship.

935
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:55,399
Speaker 3: There's Apostolic zeal they're preaching, They're very well educated and

936
00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:59,120
Speaker 3: they're available. So they run the Saint Joseph's Church in

937
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:02,239
Speaker 3: the Greenwich Village, which handles NYU. You're very familiar with

938
00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:05,760
Speaker 3: that parish. I know they do at Saint Vincent Ferrara

939
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:09,120
Speaker 3: where their provincial headquarters are on the East side of Manhattan. Now,

940
00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:13,640
Speaker 3: they're wonderful priests, and well, their availability is not the

941
00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:16,200
Speaker 3: whole answer. The other is, so many people come to

942
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:18,880
Speaker 3: New York to work from all over the country, and

943
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:21,839
Speaker 3: they're all different religions. And when you come to New

944
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:25,080
Speaker 3: York and you encounter a priest such as the Dominicans,

945
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:28,560
Speaker 3: and there are many others diocesan priests included, at least

946
00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:30,520
Speaker 3: we have a system to help them. And that's what

947
00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:34,279
Speaker 3: I'm really happy about. Because the Dominicans that produce so

948
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:36,680
Speaker 3: many vocations, there are plenty of priests that go around

949
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:40,120
Speaker 3: in their apostolates. So yeah, all I can say is

950
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:42,920
Speaker 3: the Holy Spirit never stops. You know. Mother Angelic was

951
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:45,200
Speaker 3: big on that. You know, the Holy Spirit is working.

952
00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:46,880
Speaker 3: We just got to find out what he's doing.

953
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:48,960
Speaker 2: Well, Father and Bob.

954
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:51,840
Speaker 1: Even Old Saint Patrick's down, which is you know, also

955
00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:55,520
Speaker 1: is near NYU, they are seeing hundreds of converts, kids

956
00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:58,520
Speaker 1: wanting to convert to the church. Now, the assassination of

957
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:01,839
Speaker 1: Charlie Kirk certainly is a catalyst for this. You hear

958
00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:06,560
Speaker 1: that anecdotally, But what do you think is driving these

959
00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 1: young people into the arms of Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

960
00:52:12,239 --> 00:52:15,200
Speaker 4: It's a different world than the world that they're living in,

961
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:17,319
Speaker 4: and they know that the world that they're living in

962
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:19,759
Speaker 4: is not a good world. I mean, you hear this

963
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:22,480
Speaker 4: from kids that are in their twenties and thirties that

964
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:25,640
Speaker 4: they can't get married because they can't find people that

965
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:28,799
Speaker 4: they want to spend their lives with. They don't seem

966
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:30,879
Speaker 4: to know what to do with their lives. I mean,

967
00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:32,920
Speaker 4: most people are going to just get if they're going

968
00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:34,919
Speaker 4: to have fulfilling lives. They're going to have a good

969
00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:36,960
Speaker 4: marriage or a decent marriage, and they're going to have

970
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:39,120
Speaker 4: a decent job that enables them to take care of

971
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:41,920
Speaker 4: their family and to contribute to the society. Those are

972
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:44,120
Speaker 4: the two basic things that happen. And then they want

973
00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:46,480
Speaker 4: a faith life. They want to know that this life

974
00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:49,840
Speaker 4: isn't the it isn't the end when you die. And

975
00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:53,279
Speaker 4: you know, look, this is a sensitive issue, but let

976
00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:56,799
Speaker 4: me just try to parse this out. We see these

977
00:52:56,880 --> 00:53:00,200
Speaker 4: huge numbers of people coming into these relatively orthodox I'm

978
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:03,600
Speaker 4: a third order Dominicans, so I'm partisan to the Dominicans

979
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:06,280
Speaker 4: in New York, and I think they've got beautiful churches

980
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:11,359
Speaker 4: and activity. But they're going to those places, and there

981
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:13,919
Speaker 4: are people like Charlie Kirk who were kept away from

982
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:16,120
Speaker 4: the Catholic Church because they thought that the church was

983
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:20,960
Speaker 4: confused under Pope Frances let's speak frankly about this as

984
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:23,239
Speaker 4: to a number of things that he thought were important.

985
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:25,799
Speaker 4: So there's a balance here. Of course, you have to

986
00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:28,600
Speaker 4: go after all the lost sheep and the trans people

987
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:32,080
Speaker 4: and everything else. But the church really should be putting

988
00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:35,759
Speaker 4: its energy. It needs numbers, It needs the kind of

989
00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:39,279
Speaker 4: energetic and productive and creative people that seem to come

990
00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:42,560
Speaker 4: to places like the Dominicans have. The Church really needs

991
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:44,960
Speaker 4: to put a lot of effort into drawing them as well.

992
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:47,960
Speaker 4: Not just the you know, the outliers, but how about

993
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:51,080
Speaker 4: the mainstream of what people in society are going to be,

994
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:54,080
Speaker 4: The people who are going to be that middle class.

995
00:53:55,200 --> 00:53:57,399
Speaker 4: I mean, we've all lived through this. The people who

996
00:53:57,480 --> 00:53:59,960
Speaker 4: just love the church to bits and they centered them

997
00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:03,160
Speaker 4: whole life around it, and everything else comes together because

998
00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:05,759
Speaker 4: the church seems to work for them. That's if we

999
00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:08,239
Speaker 4: want to talk about cinideality. I think that that's a

1000
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:12,520
Speaker 4: part of cinidality that's been tremendously neglected. We're talking about

1001
00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:15,799
Speaker 4: the peripheries all the time, But what about the what

1002
00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:19,120
Speaker 4: about main street? What about the main road of the church, right,

1003
00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:20,680
Speaker 4: it has to be attended to as well.

1004
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:23,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, your core audience, you know, there's in the

1005
00:54:23,920 --> 00:54:26,520
Speaker 1: Catholic Church, and it's something I've seen. You see it

1006
00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:30,040
Speaker 1: in magazines, you see it in broadcast outlets and podcasts.

1007
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:34,120
Speaker 1: There's a there's almost a revulsion of the natural audience

1008
00:54:34,160 --> 00:54:38,560
Speaker 1: for what you do and the programming, whether it be

1009
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:43,919
Speaker 1: church services or people that are booked or shows, they

1010
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:49,239
Speaker 1: actually are created to repel the audience and attract some

1011
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:53,040
Speaker 1: imaginary one. So the people that would normally fill your

1012
00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:55,719
Speaker 1: pews in a Catholic church, why wouldn't you seek those

1013
00:54:55,760 --> 00:54:58,359
Speaker 1: people out and throw a welcome that out to them.

1014
00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:01,439
Speaker 1: Why are you going to people who frankly will never

1015
00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:03,239
Speaker 1: come around to you. They're waiting for you to come

1016
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:07,319
Speaker 1: around to them, and the church simply can't. And I

1017
00:55:07,360 --> 00:55:10,840
Speaker 1: think somehow the church has lost its way and the

1018
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:13,480
Speaker 1: orthodoxy thing that I read in that piece, I think

1019
00:55:13,960 --> 00:55:17,160
Speaker 1: my personal opinion of that is people come into the

1020
00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:19,960
Speaker 1: Catholic Church they read about the church. A lot of

1021
00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:22,480
Speaker 1: these young people are readers who have found their way

1022
00:55:22,520 --> 00:55:26,080
Speaker 1: in through the Internet or through podcasts, they educate themselves

1023
00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:28,479
Speaker 1: and then the church they find is not the church

1024
00:55:28,520 --> 00:55:30,840
Speaker 1: they've read about, so they're looking for that church.

1025
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:32,319
Speaker 2: Father, I'll give you the last word.

1026
00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:36,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, you're absolutely right about that. And you know,

1027
00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:40,319
Speaker 3: if you go to a Paris and Father Friendly is there,

1028
00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:43,080
Speaker 3: and you know, has sister get reading and reading a

1029
00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:46,640
Speaker 3: homily at Mass or doing some other strange and liturgic collaborration.

1030
00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:50,080
Speaker 3: What's not to like about going to you know, a

1031
00:55:50,120 --> 00:55:54,520
Speaker 3: Greek Orthodox divine liturgy where the priest pays little or

1032
00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:57,560
Speaker 3: no attention to what you're doing because he's focused on

1033
00:55:57,680 --> 00:56:01,960
Speaker 3: celebrating this divine liturgy. And it certainly there's no innovations

1034
00:56:01,960 --> 00:56:05,200
Speaker 3: of that sort. Yeah, let me just throw I mean,

1035
00:56:05,239 --> 00:56:08,360
Speaker 3: Bob said, is magnificent. Your points are right on target.

1036
00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:12,680
Speaker 3: The Catholic Church is not a human institution in the

1037
00:56:12,719 --> 00:56:16,160
Speaker 3: first place, and we forget that all the time. It

1038
00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:19,480
Speaker 3: is the mystical body of Christ. Our duty is to

1039
00:56:19,520 --> 00:56:23,160
Speaker 3: convey what Jesus gave the apostles and the disciples in

1040
00:56:23,239 --> 00:56:25,520
Speaker 3: a new environrant way, answering new questions.

1041
00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:26,520
Speaker 2: How do we do that?

1042
00:56:26,760 --> 00:56:29,920
Speaker 3: Saint John the Baptist said it, well, I must disappear,

1043
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:34,960
Speaker 3: he must increase. So when through the liturgy, through the doctrine,

1044
00:56:35,239 --> 00:56:39,120
Speaker 3: through the discipline, all of that, that's how you tell people, hey,

1045
00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:42,160
Speaker 3: we're just here as servants. Focus on Jesus. The Holy

1046
00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:45,239
Speaker 3: Spirit will guide you. And where that's done is in

1047
00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:47,320
Speaker 3: these Dominican parish is having a great effect.

1048
00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:48,040
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1049
00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:51,480
Speaker 1: Well, look, Thanksgiving is almost upon us here in the

1050
00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:54,600
Speaker 1: United States. I want to get Thanksgiving for you all,

1051
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:57,960
Speaker 1: for the clarity of your voices, and to the audience

1052
00:56:57,960 --> 00:57:00,400
Speaker 1: that joins us every week. Thank you all will be

1053
00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:04,920
Speaker 1: off next week for Thanksgiving. Father has to celebrate Masses

1054
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:09,279
Speaker 1: and Bob has a concerto to right. But I want

1055
00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:11,880
Speaker 1: to thank the Posse for being here. The Arroyo Grande

1056
00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:16,440
Speaker 1: Prayerful Posse is always available to you subscribe at a

1057
00:57:16,520 --> 00:57:19,600
Speaker 1: Royal Grande show on YouTube or a Royal Grande.

1058
00:57:19,320 --> 00:57:22,040
Speaker 2: Podcast wherever you get yours on ma hahf of Robert Royal,

1059
00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:23,080
Speaker 2: Father Gerald Murray.

1060
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:27,440
Speaker 1: Until the Posse rides again, stay the course, follow the light.

1061
00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:29,480
Speaker 2: I'm Raimond Arroyo say it next time.

1062
00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:33,960
Speaker 1: Arroyo Grande is produced in partnership with iHeart Podcasts and

1063
00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:36,880
Speaker 1: is available on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get

1064
00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:51,200
Speaker 1: your podcasts,