1 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. My wife likes to 2 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:23,800 Speaker 1: say that she loves love, and I think that all 3 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 1: of us have this kind of romanticized view of what 4 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:31,160 Speaker 1: it means to love somebody. But for some, I guess 5 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:34,480 Speaker 1: their perception of love or the way love is expressed, 6 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:40,560 Speaker 1: is in a different atmosphere from many of us. I've 7 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:45,839 Speaker 1: never thought of integrating the term knife play into an 8 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:51,840 Speaker 1: expression that even remotely resembles romantic love. But the case 9 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: I'm going to lay on you today is beyond anything 10 00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: I've covered. Really, it doesn't occur here in the you 11 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:04,520 Speaker 1: as it's actually in Great Britain, England specifically, which I've 12 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 1: traveled too many times and that I have an incredible 13 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 1: affection for. But what happened in this little town, in 14 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:17,039 Speaker 1: this space is absolutely beyond the pale. Today I'm going 15 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: to talk about the murder of Frankie Fitzgerald and his 16 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:26,959 Speaker 1: girlfriend that perpetrated this crime, Shacrobes. I am Joseph Scott Morgan, 17 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: and this is body Bags. Dave mac my good buddy, 18 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:38,039 Speaker 1: is a senior crime reporter for Crime on One. I 19 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 1: want to apologize to you in advance or springing this 20 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 1: case on you. There's no saying on the South that 21 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: some people say you get something in your mind it's 22 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 1: so horrible they'll actually say, well, thanks, I'm going to 23 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 1: have to slaughter a hog get that image out of 24 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 1: my mind. And in this particular case, I gotta tell you, 25 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: it ranks right up there all the stuff that we 26 00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 1: cover on body bags. I need some more reorientation here. 27 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 1: Perhaps maybe you can offer that up, Dave. I don't know. 28 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 1: I don't think I have a degree in psychology or 29 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 1: sociology that could help break this down, Joe. But I 30 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 1: will tell you this. There's an old saying pretty is 31 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 1: as pretty does, and this twenty seven year old Shay 32 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 1: Groves is physically attractive on the outside. When you get 33 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: down to the nitty gritty of who that an individual 34 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 1: is not very pretty a matter of fact, it's pretty disgusting, 35 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 1: and Shay Groves is kind of the definition of that. 36 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: When we were looking at this story, big big story 37 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 1: in Great Britain, not so much here. He did get 38 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 1: some play in the US, but a huge and great Britain. 39 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 1: And he goes back to all the photos. Young people 40 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:43,799 Speaker 1: now live their lives online, and that means a lot 41 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 1: of pictures, a lot of stories and things like that. 42 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 1: Oftentimes we can see somebody over the years either devolve 43 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 1: or evolve in their thinking and how they look at 44 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 1: themselves in the world. But in her case, just to 45 00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: throw it out there, Shay grows, even by our best 46 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 1: estimation from her friends, was always a bit of a 47 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 1: weirdo even as a child. She grows when she was younger, 48 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 1: how little girls dress up in colorful outfits and things. 49 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 1: She didn't go full on goth look at five years old, 50 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:15,640 Speaker 1: but she was bending that way. But the thing that 51 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 1: really catches the attention for this case in particular is 52 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:26,120 Speaker 1: the fact that she is quote unquote obsessed with serial killers. 53 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 1: I don't know how you go past it when somebody 54 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 1: is obsessed with serial killers and has pictures of them 55 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 1: framed in their home. I'm going to tell you what, Joe, 56 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: If you're that person and somebody in your world dies 57 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 1: of island death, who do you think the cops are 58 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: looking at? First? There's this fond line that is easy 59 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 1: to cross, perhaps where there is this fascination with the morbid, 60 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 1: and certainly we explore many of these horrible events that 61 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 1: have occurred and try to put some sense to it 62 00:03:57,000 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: if you will. From a scientific standpoint, I don't know 63 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: that there's a necessarily way you can take the measure 64 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 1: of it day in and day out. And what is 65 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 1: it in your life to get you to the point 66 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 1: where you're going to frame a picture of Ted Bundy 67 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 1: and hang it on your wall, and so that every 68 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 1: day when you get up to start your day, maybe 69 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 1: to have a cup of coffee or as the Brits say, 70 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 1: have a cup of tea to get the day rolling. 71 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 1: There you are eye to eye with a person that's 72 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 1: arguably a monster. I've seen the pictures of her apartment. 73 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:34,479 Speaker 1: If you're looking at Ted, you look to the left. 74 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, there's Richard Ramirez, the night stalker who 75 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 1: does this. There's even a charcoal of Jeffrey Dahmer hanging 76 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:47,919 Speaker 1: on the wall of this home. Say what you will 77 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:51,480 Speaker 1: about the impressionist went about reproductions, But if I had 78 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 1: a choice, I think I'd much rather look at lily 79 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 1: pads by Monet, you know, to be created with, TOI 80 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: to sit my morning, my morning off you with and 81 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:03,480 Speaker 1: meditate on things. So this is what you're filling your 82 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:06,279 Speaker 1: mind with day in and day out. And people make 83 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:08,920 Speaker 1: light of this, there's any number of memes out there, 84 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 1: little clips that are floating about on social media, you know, 85 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 1: where they'll say what my husband thinks I'm listening to 86 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:18,039 Speaker 1: as opposed to what I'm actually listening to. And then 87 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 1: you hear this narrator's voice that says, this person murdered 88 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 1: her husband or whatever it is. And it's quite comical. 89 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 1: But now you kind of have a touch of reality 90 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:30,600 Speaker 1: with this when you entered the space. This is her 91 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 1: private space, this is her home, and yet it is 92 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 1: festooned with all manner of these images that are quite chilling. 93 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: And if you take the totality of what each one 94 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: of these monsters has done, and you were to kind 95 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:51,679 Speaker 1: of calculate that, pile it up, and you think about 96 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 1: all of the sorrow and the misery and the horror 97 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 1: that's associated with each one of these people that hangs 98 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 1: on her wall. It's quite staggering to think that an 99 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:07,720 Speaker 1: individual could in fact become this obsessed with these individuals 100 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 1: who are arguably some of the most evil people that 101 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: have ever entered our mind's eye. You know, I'm glad 102 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 1: you pointed out what these pictures represented inside the home. 103 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:20,599 Speaker 1: You actually alluded to Monet and Lilies of the Fields, 104 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: which is a beautiful painting, has sold many times over 105 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:26,840 Speaker 1: from multiple millions of dollars. So you've got your choice. 106 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:29,479 Speaker 1: So I get a reproduction of that, or do I 107 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 1: frame photos of the nice stocker, Ted Bundy and others 108 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:35,599 Speaker 1: On top of all that, Remember this just goot Morgan. 109 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 1: Shay Groves has a daughter. So as you're trying to 110 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:43,480 Speaker 1: raise a child, do you think it's in the child's 111 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:46,920 Speaker 1: best interest for you to surround that child with happy, wonderful, 112 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:50,640 Speaker 1: colorful pictures of beautiful things and love or of the 113 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 1: most evil, darkest things you can find. Because what we're 114 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:57,839 Speaker 1: seeing in the life of Shay Grows is that after 115 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 1: having her daughter, her life did not turn around and 116 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 1: start becoming more focused on happy thoughts and a happy place, 117 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 1: but actually continued to go deeper and deeper and darker 118 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: and darker. To set this table very quickly, Shay Groves 119 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 1: and Frankie Fitzgerald were in a romantic relationship for about 120 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 1: six months on and off, is what it says. But 121 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 1: in six months time to have a relationship, there are 122 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 1: going to be a few ups and downs, but that's 123 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: really the limit here. I thought they'd been together much longer. 124 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 1: According to her friend, Shay Groves was a very controlling person. 125 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 1: She had very few friends, but the friends she did have, 126 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 1: she was able to control them, manipulate them. She had 127 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 1: power over them. And one of the things that did 128 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 1: come up about Shay Groves is even as a little girl, 129 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 1: she loved the Chucky doll, the crazy redheaded killer Chucky 130 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 1: that spawned a number of movies. She loved Chucky. Look, 131 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 1: it's one thing for a doll to be kind of funny. 132 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 1: You know, a horror movie with a doll named Chucky. 133 00:07:56,720 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 1: It's funny. Fine, But she started referring to some of 134 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 1: her friends as Chucky. That was like her thing. She 135 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 1: was always limited to a small group of friends, although 136 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 1: she was close to them, and she would manipulate them 137 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: and their situations. And she and Frankie Fitzgerald for about 138 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 1: six months, on and off, they had a very sexual relationship. 139 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: I say that because everything about what we found out 140 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 1: in this case it seemed to be centered on their 141 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 1: sex life. She was obsessed with her sex life with 142 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 1: Frankie Fitzgerald and even used his prowess in the bedroom 143 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:36,680 Speaker 1: against him. Later on, as the police were zeroing in 144 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 1: because one has to remember, if somebody you're close to 145 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 1: dies and the police come to talk to you and 146 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 1: they find pretty much a museum for the worst criminal 147 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:48,079 Speaker 1: killers of all time in your house, you're going to 148 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: be a suspect. Here we go back to back. The 149 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 1: Shay Groves story starts with her and Frankie Fitzgerald, in 150 00:08:55,600 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: a very active sexual relationship, has videos that she is 151 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 1: sending to friends to try to set it up that 152 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 1: she's a victim Joe actually saying that he was raping her, 153 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:11,679 Speaker 1: he was abusing her. But even her best friend at 154 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:14,079 Speaker 1: the time saw these videos she was using to try 155 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 1: to manipulate her friends and said, this is a really 156 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 1: bad editing job. She tried to edit it to make 157 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:21,719 Speaker 1: it look like he was raping her. Winning fact, it 158 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 1: was all a stage. The health thing was a big setup. 159 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 1: If you're an investigator and you walk into this environment 160 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 1: and you're trying to take the measure of it relative 161 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 1: to what's going on, Because as investigators, we walk into 162 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 1: a location where a death has occurred and we come 163 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 1: in cold. There's a high probability that you've never met 164 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 1: the person that you're about to look into their life 165 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 1: unless you're in a very small location, you're not going 166 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 1: to know the victim most of tom you're not going 167 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 1: to know the perpetrator. Every now and then, you'll have 168 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 1: police that have particularly uniform police officers that will have 169 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: gone out to a scene where there is domestic instability 170 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 1: and they'll have to calm things down. I've had this 171 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 1: happen a number of times where I'll arrive at a 172 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: homicide scene and There'll be a young patrol officer there 173 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 1: and I'll go up and talk to them. Do you 174 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 1: come to this address very frequent? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 175 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 1: I've been here several times. They love to break glass 176 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 1: and bust furniture and yell at one another. There's been 177 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 1: a couple of punches thrown over the years, but we 178 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 1: could get them settled down. Or there's a domestic violence 179 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:32,319 Speaker 1: issue that has come up. They've both gone accord on it, 180 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 1: once had restraining orders, but yet the other one chose 181 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 1: to move back with the individual, and you'll get this 182 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 1: kind of long serial history that goes along with it. 183 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:43,320 Speaker 1: But for investigators, when you show up the scene, there's 184 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 1: a high probability you're not going to know either one. 185 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: So first impressions. Right, you walk in to a location, 186 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:51,840 Speaker 1: and trust me, if you're an investigator, you've been to 187 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 1: enough seminars over the years, Even if you don't follow 188 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 1: a true crime, the stuff that we learn about, the 189 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: things that we read, the old cases that we review 190 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 1: to try to understand how an earlier generation of the 191 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 1: investigators worked a case. You're going to be familiar with 192 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 1: some of these images hanging on the wall, and I 193 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 1: hate to use the word iconic, but you begin to 194 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 1: think about you can't go anywhere without seeing a picture 195 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 1: of Dahmer or John wick Gacy or Hillside Stranglers or 196 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 1: even the night Stalker. They're gonna be there. In your mind, 197 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 1: you're gonna see that. But then when you walk into 198 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 1: this kind of domestic situation and you've got these images 199 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:34,079 Speaker 1: hanging all about, and you're thinking, what what does this 200 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 1: say about the individual that lives in this environment, that 201 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 1: exists within this environment. It kind of denotes that their 202 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:46,320 Speaker 1: mind is focused in one particular area. And then when 203 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 1: it comes to these two you had mentioned the manipulation 204 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 1: of the video, how do you do that? Well? She 205 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: had a camera that was set up in her bedroom 206 00:11:56,480 --> 00:12:00,839 Speaker 1: where she would tape all of her sex acts with Fitzgerald, 207 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:04,320 Speaker 1: and for whatever reason, she'd go back and review them. 208 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 1: The sex life that they had had a level of 209 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:10,559 Speaker 1: violence to it. They were into bondage, they were into 210 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 1: sado masochism, and maybe retrospectively, they would go back take 211 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 1: a look at the videos and it would sexually excite 212 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: them or arouse them, or whatever the case might be. 213 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 1: So she apparently had a whole catalog. You had mentioned 214 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 1: a relationship that had taken place over six month period. 215 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: Just think about this for a second. You're with someone, 216 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 1: for let's face at a very short period of time, 217 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 1: six months, and your situation has evolved or devolved to 218 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 1: the point where you're engaged in dangerous behavior in the bedroom. 219 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 1: I'd mentioned earlier she was famously into knife play. Now 220 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 1: what does that mean. Well, knife play generally is where 221 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:04,080 Speaker 1: individuals will tie an individual up, and after they've tied 222 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: them up, they'll take out an edged weapon, perhaps, and 223 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:14,559 Speaker 1: while they're in the midst of having sex, the blade 224 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 1: is placed against the throat, or maybe it's placed just 225 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 1: adjacent to the eye in a threatening manner, and this 226 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:26,080 Speaker 1: causes arousal. So this is being taped over and over 227 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 1: and over again, And you really wondered, Dave, you really 228 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 1: wonder what was it that, of all the times, out 229 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:37,080 Speaker 1: of all the times that they've engaged in this behavior 230 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 1: over a six month period, what actually led her to 231 00:13:42,440 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 1: cut his throat? Dave? When I smell bleach, I guess 232 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 1: I could think of our laundry room here at home. 233 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 1: But one of the things I always think of is 234 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 1: the time that I spent working in the morgue. For 235 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:15,719 Speaker 1: all of those years. Bleach was central to what I 236 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 1: would use in order to clean with. And that's after 237 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 1: I'd applied detergent to the surrounding area to scrub things down, 238 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 1: and then as a final kind of exclamation point on 239 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 1: the morgue and kind of the finishing touches, I would 240 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 1: wipe everything down with bleach. And that smell lingers, doesn't it. 241 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 1: Can you imagine when the police show up at a 242 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 1: scene and you have someone that is deceased, that smell 243 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 1: of bleach hits you full force in the face. I 244 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 1: would think that you would begin to wonder what has 245 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 1: occurred in here. I'm telling you this is a freaky 246 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 1: story that I've had trouble of just getting past. But 247 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 1: you said something a minute ago and it kind of 248 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 1: caught my attention and throwing this out here for you 249 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 1: because it is Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan. I wonder 250 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 1: if Shay Groves actually determined she was going to commit 251 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 1: this murder before she ever met Frankie Fitzgerald. And the 252 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 1: reason I say that is in six months time, she 253 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 1: went from meeting in a pub to putting him in 254 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 1: the ground. And we have her best friend saying that 255 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 1: Shay Groves used these videotapes of sex in previous relationships. 256 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 1: She used these videos of her having sex with boyfriends 257 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 1: as a way to manipulate them. She used it for 258 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 1: blackmail of previous boyfriends. So she was actively filming her 259 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 1: sex acts for many months, maybe years, before she ever 260 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 1: met Frankie Fitzgerald. Then brings him in and immediately they're 261 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 1: down the sado masochism path that included in writing that 262 00:15:56,280 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 1: he Frankie was allowed to wake Shay up with violent sex. 263 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 1: This is in writing in their contract. Okay, the pre 264 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 1: planning that went in it was to actually be able 265 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: to videotape this act taking place and then use it 266 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 1: against him later on saying it was rape. Yeah, and 267 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: I'm going back to this pre planning. Here did she 268 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 1: actually find her victim after she decided I need these things, 269 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: because again we've got a woman obsessed with serial killers, 270 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 1: obsessed with murder, obsessed with the idea of killing somebody. 271 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 1: Then she did. So you mentioned bleach that cover up 272 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 1: as much a part of the murder as any part 273 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 1: of the crime, because she knew she would beat the suspect. 274 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 1: Maybe you're right, Dave. Maybe she had thought about these 275 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 1: things for so long where she had contemplated doing this, 276 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 1: had kind of toyed around with it. As it turns out, 277 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 1: she was thinking about how to get away with crimes 278 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 1: based upon things that she had seen in true crime 279 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 1: that she could certainly have videography, and as you had mentioned, 280 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:10,520 Speaker 1: the fact that she presented as a piece of evidence 281 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 1: if you will. There's no shame here, by the way, either. 282 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:17,199 Speaker 1: See look at this video that I've created, and you 283 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 1: can see him clearly here being aggressive towards me sexually. 284 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 1: He's attempting to rape me. I was in fear of 285 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 1: my life and all of this sort of things. So 286 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 1: that takes some bit of planning to do, and not 287 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 1: just the planning, but the execution of just that bit there. 288 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 1: She had also considered the idea that maybe after she 289 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:42,200 Speaker 1: perpetrates this horrible crime against mister Fitzgerald, that she's going 290 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:45,719 Speaker 1: to need bleach to clean up afterwards. You think about that, 291 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:49,360 Speaker 1: just for a second. What did she absorb from watching 292 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 1: true crime documentaries perhaps or reading about the exploits of 293 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 1: serial killers that, by the way, many of these individuals 294 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 1: had gotten away with crimes for a protracted period of 295 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: time before they were ever caught. And here's one more 296 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:08,439 Speaker 1: I'll throw at you if you like that one. What 297 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:12,200 Speaker 1: if this was just going to be an attempt at 298 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:16,400 Speaker 1: killing for the first time, with maybe thoughts extending out 299 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:18,400 Speaker 1: into the future. If I can do it one time, 300 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 1: maybe I can do it again. And she's got a 301 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:24,440 Speaker 1: child living in the house with her. Think about that. 302 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 1: When you consider what this place is populated with, it's 303 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 1: absolutely and totally pure evil. Day investigators walk into an 304 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 1: environments that I've often made comments about, we're always have 305 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 1: to understand the abnormal in the context of the normal. 306 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 1: And when I say this, this is not a battlefield, 307 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:14,240 Speaker 1: this is not a slaughterhouse. This is a home. Think 308 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 1: about what home means, and then you look at what 309 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 1: has occurred in this home and what occurs in so 310 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:23,919 Speaker 1: many other places that you're having to detect the measure 311 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:28,320 Speaker 1: of as an investigator and trying to make sense of 312 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:32,119 Speaker 1: it all when you see a young man whose life 313 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:37,119 Speaker 1: has just been drained out of him, literally, and you 314 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:41,159 Speaker 1: think about what has to occur, What was it that 315 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:44,440 Speaker 1: brought them to this point that such violence would be 316 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 1: exacted upon someone like Frankie Fitzgerald. You mentioned a couple 317 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 1: of things during the course of the program today, and 318 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:56,680 Speaker 1: one of those was knife play. We know that Jake 319 00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 1: gros was obsessed with serial killer's murder. She had gone 320 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:04,880 Speaker 1: down a path of darkness on the outside. The image 321 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:07,919 Speaker 1: she projected to the outside world was of a tattered 322 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 1: up young woman with a lot of piercings, and they 323 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:15,639 Speaker 1: were not happy hollygo lightly type of piercings and tattoos. 324 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:19,719 Speaker 1: These were really dark. I'm really curious here because you 325 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 1: mentioned knife play and the fact that Shay Groves actually 326 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:30,640 Speaker 1: killed Frankie Fitzgerald, her boyfriend air quotes in bed and 327 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:34,399 Speaker 1: everything I'm seeing is that she sliced his throat and 328 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 1: stabbed him multiple times, like what twenty five to forty times? 329 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 1: But there are multiple different knives here at play four 330 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:46,360 Speaker 1: specific types of knife, but one was referred to as 331 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:50,920 Speaker 1: a dagger. Others were referred to as bladed cutlery. I'm 332 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 1: looking at this going okay, help me understand, Joseph Scott Morgan, 333 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 1: what we were actually dealing with here in terms of 334 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:02,399 Speaker 1: the knives and the actual slicing or blunging. When you 335 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 1: throw up the word dagger, it has a very Shakespearean 336 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 1: ring to it because daggers were carried by people for 337 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 1: their utility. It wasn't just merely an implement that was 338 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:19,920 Speaker 1: used to protect yourself with. The Romans used them famously 339 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 1: to open oysters. They loved oysters, and they were used 340 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:26,680 Speaker 1: through time for any number of things. You could carve 341 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 1: a meal with them. But what sets a dagger apart 342 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 1: from say, other edged weapons, is that it's a double 343 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:37,880 Speaker 1: edged weapon. So it's not like you have this blunt spine. 344 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 1: Think of any kind of knife that you take out 345 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 1: of your drawer at home. Most knives that you have 346 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:45,639 Speaker 1: in a home are going to have this kind of 347 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 1: blunt spine that runs away from the hilt and goes 348 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 1: out to the tip, and then the tip curves back 349 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 1: down onto the blaated surface, so you've got a sharp 350 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 1: surface and you've got kind of a blunted surface. When 351 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 1: you look at a single edged knife wound compared to 352 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 1: a double edged wound, it is completely different. Some people 353 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 1: refer to it as the winking eye. A single edged weapon, 354 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 1: when you take a look at it, at first, it 355 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:22,240 Speaker 1: has a sharp edge or point, it comes to a 356 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:24,239 Speaker 1: very acute point on one side, and then the other 357 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:27,440 Speaker 1: side is kind of blunted looking. When you look at 358 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 1: it close enough, you begin to see an eye. Conversely, 359 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:34,399 Speaker 1: when you take a look at a double edged weapon, 360 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 1: such as a dagger, it's going to have two distinct 361 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,920 Speaker 1: acute points on either side of it. How these things 362 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 1: are going to appear is going to be dependent upon 363 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:49,920 Speaker 1: where you're stabbed. We have contour lines that run all 364 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 1: over the course of our skin throughout our body. As 365 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 1: a matter of fact, when physicians learn how to conduct 366 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 1: even minor surgery, they're taught about something called the lines 367 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:03,119 Speaker 1: of languor. And lines of languor are these contour lines 368 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:05,320 Speaker 1: that run throughout our body, and they have to do 369 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 1: with the tension of the skin and how we're kind 370 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:12,680 Speaker 1: of constructed. And if you go opposing to the lines 371 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 1: of languor, you get these really nasty looking cuts that 372 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:19,639 Speaker 1: are open and gaping. It doesn't mean that the weapon 373 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 1: was any larger than say, where they're not as gaping. 374 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 1: It's just that you've gone across the grain, if you will, 375 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 1: and so it opens up. So with surgeons, when they 376 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 1: make an incision into someone, they follow the line of languor, 377 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:36,119 Speaker 1: and if they do this, then you're not going to 378 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,920 Speaker 1: have as nasty as scar If they go against the grain, 379 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:42,879 Speaker 1: that opens up in this very horrific kind of way. 380 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 1: When you're reading these wounds, you have to be very 381 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:48,160 Speaker 1: very careful actually in the morgue. One of the things 382 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,640 Speaker 1: that will do sometimes is you've heard of us doing 383 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 1: tape lifts, where we're lifting fragile evidence, trace evidence, this 384 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 1: sort of thing. What we will do many times if 385 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 1: we've got one of these big gaping wounds, will actually 386 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 1: take scotch tape after we've cleaned the wound, and will 387 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:09,359 Speaker 1: place the scotch tape over both sides of the wound 388 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:11,359 Speaker 1: and draw it together so that we can get an 389 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 1: idea of the orientation of the wound, because if it's 390 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 1: gone across the grain, you might not be able to 391 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:21,160 Speaker 1: appreciate it as it had insulted the body initially, so 392 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:23,199 Speaker 1: you have to be mindful of that. When you're in 393 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,440 Speaker 1: the morgue. You take a look at all of these 394 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 1: things and it gives you ideas to the orientation. Now, 395 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,640 Speaker 1: what we have here in this case with Frankie Fitzgerald 396 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 1: is that his throat was in fact cut. And I 397 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: find it interesting their language is a bit different than ours. 398 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,399 Speaker 1: In the court documents when you begin to read about 399 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,440 Speaker 1: this case, they state that he had a catastrophic loss 400 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,440 Speaker 1: of blood. But such a very British thing to say. 401 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:49,639 Speaker 1: Here in the US we would say, well, he bled 402 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:52,879 Speaker 1: to death. They're saying it was a catastrophic loss of blood, 403 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:57,639 Speaker 1: and in medical terminology we would say that he extanguinated, 404 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 1: which means the volume of blood that he loss was 405 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 1: incompatible with life. It's what it came down to, is 406 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 1: that because of the throat slash, meaning the other staff bounds. 407 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 1: Perhaps that's a good point. It is a cataclysmic event 408 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,960 Speaker 1: from a physiological standpoint when you've got this knife being 409 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 1: plunged into him. Now he's obviously in a very submissive 410 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 1: position when this has occurred. You have to imagine that 411 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:27,160 Speaker 1: she's on top of him. The question you would want 412 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,160 Speaker 1: to ask is how do you perpetrate this many insults 413 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 1: to his body? Was he restrained in some way or 414 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,679 Speaker 1: was he drugged? Or how did he get into this 415 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 1: position where he could not fend her off? That's an 416 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 1: important question here, I think, and it goes to the 417 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 1: lifestyle that they were engaging in. You have submissives and 418 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 1: you have dominance. They lived by this ethos of bondage 419 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,919 Speaker 1: and sado masochism and these sorts of things. So was 420 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 1: he in a submissive position? Did he see this on 421 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,360 Speaker 1: his horizon? Was he submitting to her when this happened. 422 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 1: When you go back and you look at the injuries, 423 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,479 Speaker 1: in order to assess these injuries, you would have to 424 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:13,159 Speaker 1: take each one one by one and consider the location anatomically. 425 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 1: Are they in the middle line of the chest or 426 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 1: in the side of the chest? Also, are any of 427 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 1: these post mortem? And that's a big factor here, Dave, 428 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 1: because if she's into knife play and she's into serial killers, 429 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:31,440 Speaker 1: some of the hallmarks of serial killers, not every one 430 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 1: of them, obviously, but many of them is what will 431 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 1: they do with bodies after they're deceased? Well, sometimes there's 432 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 1: a further attempt to disfigure the body or to abuse 433 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:46,679 Speaker 1: a body. So you would want to take the measure 434 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 1: of that to try to understand is there hemorrhage in 435 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:54,480 Speaker 1: all of these wounds? Are all of these in the 436 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 1: throes of death what we refer to the perimortem state. 437 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:00,679 Speaker 1: You have this initial area where he was attacked. How 438 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,879 Speaker 1: much blood was associated with this? We'd mentioned the throat 439 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,120 Speaker 1: being cut, So if you're bleeding out through this insult 440 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 1: to the throat, which most of these that you see 441 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 1: are wide and gaping, and again that goes to these 442 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:15,919 Speaker 1: contour lines that I've mentioned in the body. If you're 443 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:19,159 Speaker 1: cutting across the grain, the throat will open up significantly, 444 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: because people can have their throat cut without it being fatal. 445 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 1: But if you get into the area where you're down 446 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:29,640 Speaker 1: into these vessels where you're thinking about, particularly the carotids, 447 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,120 Speaker 1: you're down that deep, which is a couple of centimeters 448 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:35,439 Speaker 1: below the surface of the skin, and then you go 449 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,000 Speaker 1: across the trachea, which, for lack of a better term, 450 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 1: is the windpipe. There's things that we can look for, say, 451 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 1: for instance, in the lungs. Well, if the throat is cut, 452 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 1: you're still breathing, perhaps are attempting to breathe, you're gasping. 453 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,439 Speaker 1: Guess what you're going to find down in the airway. 454 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,879 Speaker 1: You're gonna find blood, and sometimes you will find blood 455 00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 1: within the lungs, depend upon how long the individual. And 456 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,199 Speaker 1: I'm not talking about where we have what's referred to 457 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 1: as plural effusion, where the chess cavities filled with blood 458 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:07,359 Speaker 1: and the lungs are floating in it. That's not what 459 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,480 Speaker 1: I'm saying. I'm talking about when there's an insult to 460 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:14,880 Speaker 1: the airway and people actually aspirate blood where they draw 461 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 1: it in when they're taking in their breath and it 462 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:19,159 Speaker 1: just kind of goes back into the lungs and you 463 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,960 Speaker 1: can find it when the lungs are dissected. That's kind 464 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 1: of fascinated too. And all of this goes to time, 465 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 1: doesn't it. You begin to think about how much time 466 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,879 Speaker 1: did this take? How much time did she spend with him? 467 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 1: Was it a torture event? Because knives have been used 468 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 1: over the ages to torment and to terrorize people. Think 469 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 1: back to what our initial premise was with her, where 470 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:44,920 Speaker 1: she has stated openly that they engaged in quote unquote 471 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 1: knife play. Was she ultimately living out a fantasy here 472 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:54,200 Speaker 1: that of course, wound up in the death of Frankie Fitzgerald. 473 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body Backs.