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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know from how Stuff Works

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Speaker 1: dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh

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Speaker 1: Clark with Charles W. Chuck Bryant, Jerry and the air Conditioner.

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Speaker 1: So it's stuff you should know. This is a little

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Speaker 1: loud today from the Dank Bowels Bar Bowels. Oh I'm

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Speaker 1: glad you laughed, because it's probably gonna be the last

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Speaker 1: one that you folks are gonna hear. Yeah, this one's

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Speaker 1: heavy over the next two episodes. Not a lot of

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Speaker 1: great ways to inject humor into the trail of tears.

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Speaker 1: If it comes up and it's tasteful, we'll put it

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Speaker 1: in there. Sure, But I mean, you know, come on, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I said two parter, Uh, you just spoiled it. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's gonna be a two parter for Thursday. This is

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Speaker 1: a dense topic and um yeah, so we'll do it Tuesday,

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Speaker 1: Thursday on this right. Yeah, not a thirsty day next Tuesday.

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Speaker 1: That'd be weird because people would sit around all weekend

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Speaker 1: without access to the internet. When how it all ended?

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Speaker 1: You know, Um, it's funny. It is a very dense topic. Choking.

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Speaker 1: I never I was a history major man, and I

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Speaker 1: didn't realize how dense this topic was background, there was

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Speaker 1: how many things that came together to lead up to it.

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Speaker 1: Because everything I knew about the Trail of Tears wash

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Speaker 1: what I think most people know about the Trail of Tears.

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Speaker 1: It was you know, the Cherokee people were forced onto

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Speaker 1: this trail to move out west, and it wasn't fun. No,

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Speaker 1: it was very sad. And one of the long standing

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Speaker 1: urban legends or myths or I don't know what you

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Speaker 1: call it, um, but falsehoods that I always had heard

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Speaker 1: was that it was called the Trail of tears because, um,

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Speaker 1: despite all the hardships, that Indians were so stoic that

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Speaker 1: it was the white sailors who came out to watch

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Speaker 1: them leave that we're crying. I don't think I ever

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Speaker 1: heard that. I heard that for years, starting in grade

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Speaker 1: school going up to college. So it's not called an

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Speaker 1: urban myth. It's called public school in America in the eighties,

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Speaker 1: I guess, so, yeah, But I mean that was overall though,

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Speaker 1: aside from that big falsehood, like my conception of the

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Speaker 1: the Trail of Tears was fairly correct, but it was

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Speaker 1: limited narrow. It was such a much bigger event. It

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Speaker 1: wasn't just one migration. It was actually multiple migrations. It

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Speaker 1: involved more than just the Cherokee. Um, it involved even

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Speaker 1: more than just the southeastern tribes. Just about every tribe

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Speaker 1: that was around west of the Mississippi was in the

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Speaker 1: about the eighteen thirties forced east of Thesa was forced

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Speaker 1: west of the Mississippi against their will, which as we'll see,

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Speaker 1: there were other tribes west of the Mississippi were like,

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Speaker 1: what's going on here? Yeah, well you didn't invite you. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Uh And then you know, and not just Native Americans

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Speaker 1: were affected by this, but this this forced migration had

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Speaker 1: a huge impact on the African Americans who have been

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Speaker 1: brought here are slaves were being forced into slave labor

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Speaker 1: on these lands that the Indians were forced to migrate from. Yes,

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Speaker 1: there was a huge, huge thing that happened, and it

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Speaker 1: all happened in about a decade. Yeah, and I think

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Speaker 1: this is one of those that, uh, you know, you

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Speaker 1: don't know your past, you don't know your future type

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Speaker 1: of thing like that should be a song leric. There's uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, you look at stories like this and you

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Speaker 1: can apply certain aspects of it too modern times even um,

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Speaker 1: you know, that's all I'm gonna say. But it's true.

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Speaker 1: I mean, like it is true. There's a probably a

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Speaker 1: different um. It's its own reasoning. The trail of tears,

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Speaker 1: what what began and kicked off, the trail of tears

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Speaker 1: is its own thing that we don't really run into anymore.

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Speaker 1: It's almost like inconceivable in the United States because we

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Speaker 1: have so much land. But at the time the United

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Speaker 1: States was the Thirteen Colonies, and it ran from Georgia

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Speaker 1: up to oh basically Canada. What was the northernmost thirteenth

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Speaker 1: colony or colony was in Massachusetts. Maine wasn't around, was it, Well,

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Speaker 1: it existed. They were weird manners even back then. But

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Speaker 1: it would have been under probably like French control or

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Speaker 1: something in part of Canada, maybe, I would guess, I

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Speaker 1: don't know well. At any rate, the colonial America was

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Speaker 1: a in the early United States, was a strip of

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Speaker 1: land along the eastern seaboard, the west of that west

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Speaker 1: of the Appalachians. Basically, there were a lot of people,

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Speaker 1: a lot of Native Americans. The French were running around.

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Speaker 1: The British were out there as well, but for the

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Speaker 1: most part there was a lot of land elsewhere. But

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Speaker 1: it was a lot of it was under Indian control

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Speaker 1: native American control, and so when the United States said

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Speaker 1: we want to push out, as a matter of fact,

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Speaker 1: let's just take over the whole continent, what they ran

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Speaker 1: into was that this land was already on or Indian control.

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Speaker 1: And they had two choices either say, okay, we're gonna

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Speaker 1: stay here or go to war with the Indians, and

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Speaker 1: the United States chose the ladder at every turn. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because like, uh, and you put this one together a

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Speaker 1: very nice job. Um, but you astutely point out that

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Speaker 1: by the late eighteenth century people white European settlers have

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Speaker 1: been co mingling for a couple of centuries. This wasn't

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Speaker 1: like a brand new thing. Um. And there was a

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Speaker 1: big there was a big push for more land because

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Speaker 1: ostensibly what would happen is white settlers would eventually say,

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Speaker 1: you know, we think that you people, it's very cute

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Speaker 1: that you're not claiming ownership and you just kind of

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Speaker 1: share and share alike mostly right, you don't recognize property rights. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Louis k has a very funny little bit about that.

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Speaker 1: By the way, Um, you can look that up on YouTube.

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Speaker 1: But um, we think we can use this better than

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Speaker 1: you have been using it since the dawn of time.

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Speaker 1: And uh so we're gonna well, like you said, there's

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Speaker 1: a couple of choices. You can stay here and become

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Speaker 1: more like us, or you can get the heck out. Well,

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Speaker 1: those were the two. Those were the two, um, the

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Speaker 1: two ways of dealing with what came to be termed

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Speaker 1: as the Indian problem in the early United States. And

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Speaker 1: from the beginning there there was this problem where white said,

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Speaker 1: we need more land. Indians had the land, so the

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Speaker 1: Whites wanted it. And so there were those two two

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Speaker 1: ways of doing it. It It was either you can stay

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Speaker 1: and become one of us, or you can move. And

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Speaker 1: George Washington was actually a proponent of the first one

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Speaker 1: called in culturation, Yeah, which, uh, you know, depending on

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Speaker 1: what tribe you were in, and even within the tribe,

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Speaker 1: it varied greatly on how much you were in cultured.

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Speaker 1: But a lot of Native Americans really kind of jumped

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Speaker 1: on board that. And you know, and this is something

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Speaker 1: I didn't really know to what degree it got to,

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Speaker 1: but you know, some of them gained great wealth and

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Speaker 1: changed their names to Anglo names, and had kids and

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Speaker 1: gave them Anglo names. Some of them married white settlers. Uh,

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Speaker 1: they formed I think it was at the Cherokee, who

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Speaker 1: established their own alphabet and had a bilingual newspaper by Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the Cherokee Phoenix. Yeah, they owned. There were slave owners.

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Speaker 1: I didn't even know that. So a lot of them,

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Speaker 1: well a portion of them really took to this uh

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Speaker 1: and culturation aspect and said, you know what, I'm on

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Speaker 1: board the shore beats the alternative, which is getting the

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Speaker 1: heck out of Dodge. Plus check out the steamship I

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Speaker 1: just bought, you know. Yeah, And I guess I shouldn't

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Speaker 1: say get the heck out of Dodge because it was

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Speaker 1: the means Dodge City, right. Okay. So there was the Cherokee,

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Speaker 1: the Choctaw, the Chickasaw, the Seminole, and the Creek, and

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Speaker 1: they were considered there were many more tribes obviously around

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Speaker 1: the United States than that, but those five were considered

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Speaker 1: what we're known to white people as the five civilized tribes.

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Speaker 1: They were the ones who had enculturated the most, and

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Speaker 1: from what I understand, out of all of them, the

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Speaker 1: Cherokee was the most inculturated of even the five civilized tribes. Right,

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Speaker 1: unculturated or uncultured, I don't know, I I have a thing.

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Speaker 1: I've noticed people instead of saying like oriented, they're they're

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Speaker 1: adding like an aided there, So orientated. Yeah, there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of words like that I've noticed lately. I don't

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Speaker 1: know where this is coming from. Why it's oriented is fine,

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Speaker 1: Well you gotta add a syllable. Yeah, it's not just oriented.

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Speaker 1: It seems it's we're losing our language. Well that's that's

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Speaker 1: a prescriptive ist thinking. No, I'm not like that a

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Speaker 1: long champion. The other which is language evolves. That's descriptive ist. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but I also don't think you should say orientated. I agree.

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Speaker 1: So that's just specific. That's just that's just heavn something

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Speaker 1: stick in your crawl. So, um, what comes along with

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Speaker 1: uh in culturation is adopting this European materialism and said, hey,

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Speaker 1: I like I like having this nice stuff, right, and

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Speaker 1: not only that it shows other people, uh that I'm wealthy,

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Speaker 1: that I mean something. Yeah, I've got some status here.

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Speaker 1: And once uh, these Native Americans bought into that, these

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Speaker 1: European settlers like, well, now we've got them. Yeah, this

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Speaker 1: is kind of just what we hope for. Not that

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Speaker 1: it was some evil plan, but it kind of worked

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Speaker 1: in their favor basically. Yeah, because if you were a

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Speaker 1: leader in a Native American tribe, most of the Native

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Speaker 1: American tribes, one way to consolidate your power and basically

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Speaker 1: turn your position into an official chief to them, like

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Speaker 1: become an actual chief of your tribe um was to

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Speaker 1: basically be a patron to a large group of people, right,

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Speaker 1: and especially among the five civilized tribes, the the demand

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Speaker 1: for white produced European produced goods, it was pretty high.

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Speaker 1: So if you get your hands on a lot of

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Speaker 1: those and turn around and redistribute him like a patron

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Speaker 1: to your folks. Yeah, they were gonna say, hey, man,

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Speaker 1: we'll follow you into battle, We'll go up against your

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Speaker 1: political enemies on your side. You're our chief. And if

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Speaker 1: you could do that with enough people, you could become

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Speaker 1: chief of the whole tribe. Right. So early on the

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Speaker 1: Native Americans who were undertaking this process of becoming chief

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Speaker 1: through distribution of wealth, they were just trading like pelts

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Speaker 1: and stuff at trading posts. Yeah, they had it was

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Speaker 1: supply and demand that the European settlers had these, you know,

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Speaker 1: fancy new things that the Native America has never seen.

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Speaker 1: They wanted a piece of that and the European settler said, boy,

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Speaker 1: you folks are really good at hunting and skinning animals,

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Speaker 1: and the fur trade is is lucrative, and so why

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Speaker 1: don't we scratch each other's backs here we set up

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Speaker 1: these officially sanctioned trading posts and you can come. Uh.

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Speaker 1: I was about to say bye, but I guess it was.

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Speaker 1: It was swapping stuff, swapping the swapping post, right, and um,

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Speaker 1: it sort of worked out for a little while until

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Speaker 1: the fur trade started to decline because they wanted so

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Speaker 1: much for these animal populations started to dwindle a bit, right,

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Speaker 1: So the Europeans still had all the stuff that the

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Speaker 1: Native Americans wanted. The Native Americans were having a harder

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Speaker 1: and harder time getting their hands on pelts to trade.

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Speaker 1: What they found was that at the trading post, which

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Speaker 1: by the way, was the only place that they were

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Speaker 1: legally around allowed to trade, I think you have to

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Speaker 1: say trading post though the trading post. Um, they found

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Speaker 1: that they could be extended lines of credit there. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and that was kind of the beginning of the trouble. Right. So,

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Speaker 1: if you were a Native American leader who was trading

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Speaker 1: at a trading post and you went into debt from

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Speaker 1: the understanding, the customary understanding between Anglos and Native Americans

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Speaker 1: was that you were in debt on behalf of your

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Speaker 1: whole tribe. It wasn't just you, wasn't just your family.

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Speaker 1: Your whole tribe was the people who didn't like you,

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Speaker 1: people who would fall you into battle, didn't matter. Everybody

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Speaker 1: was in debt now because of you. So all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden, the the Native American leaders who had gotten

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Speaker 1: into this credit trap would say, you know, how can

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Speaker 1: I repay you? And they tried every way they could.

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Speaker 1: The first thing they didn't they they basically went to work,

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Speaker 1: started growing crops, just did everything they could pay it back.

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Speaker 1: What they found was at the government at the trading post,

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Speaker 1: said we don't want any of that. We don't want

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Speaker 1: any money, we don't want any pelts anymore. We want

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Speaker 1: your land. That's how you repay this debt. That's the

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Speaker 1: only way. Yeah, there was kind of a general thing

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Speaker 1: I picked up on throughout this whole thing that that

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Speaker 1: was either it was probably both a lack of understanding

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Speaker 1: generally and a lack of caring about how these tribes

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Speaker 1: functioned and worked before they got there. Yeah, like you know,

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Speaker 1: these tribes were huge groups of people over wide swaths

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Speaker 1: of land, and they weren't all like one huge nation

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Speaker 1: with one central leader, like it was a regional many times.

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Speaker 1: And like you said, when they went to make these trades,

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Speaker 1: the Indian chief might have thought, and by the way,

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Speaker 1: I did look up like Indian, Native American, American Indian,

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Speaker 1: and in terms of discussing history, they say, it's kind

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Speaker 1: of okay to use all three. Yeah, so I just

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Speaker 1: wanted to c a there, that's a good one, thanks. Uh.

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Speaker 1: But like the Native American chief might come in and

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Speaker 1: and in his mind he's thinking, I'm just sort of

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Speaker 1: making this deal for our little regional section of the Cherokee.

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Speaker 1: But to the white settlers they were like, I can't

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Speaker 1: tell the difference you get. You're all one big tribe

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Speaker 1: to me, right, you all got feathers on, yeah exactly.

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Speaker 1: You know, that was sort of the attitude. Right. So

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Speaker 1: when they went to debt, and when they couldn't repay

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Speaker 1: the debt, the the tribe would be forced to seed

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Speaker 1: land to the government to repay that debt. So in

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Speaker 1: that is one way that massive amounts of land were

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Speaker 1: seeded from Native Americans in the Southeast and the east

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Speaker 1: um ceded land to the federal government because the government,

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Speaker 1: again was in the business of collecting land from Native

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Speaker 1: Americans and redistributing it to white settlers. Yeah, and and

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Speaker 1: some of them kind of uh, smartly and naively at

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Speaker 1: the same time, said, you know what, they're coming for

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Speaker 1: our land, so maybe we can we can give them

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Speaker 1: some of this land in exchange to be able to

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Speaker 1: keep some of it ourselves. And so they tried this

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Speaker 1: this process at first, and like an accommodation basically, yeah,

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Speaker 1: like you let us keep some you can have this.

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Speaker 1: We got some swamp land we don't care about where.

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Speaker 1: We're not going to tell you that you can have

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Speaker 1: the swamp land. You've got to protect this and the

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Speaker 1: and the settler said, sure, that sounds great. Well, the

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Speaker 1: fed the federal government would say that, but what the

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Speaker 1: problem was the settlers, the white settlers who would encroach

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Speaker 1: on that land, were like, we didn't sign any treaty

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Speaker 1: with you, and who's going to stop us. The federal government. No,

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Speaker 1: you're not going to lift a finger. They may tell

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Speaker 1: you one thing, but nobody's stopping me from coming on

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Speaker 1: your land and hunting, growing crops or building a barn. Uh,

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Speaker 1: killing your livestock, maybe killing you. There were squatters with

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Speaker 1: basically yeah, but with impunity. Yeah, and they they either

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Speaker 1: didn't get the message or they didn't care, or both.

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Speaker 1: It was probably both. So then what happens and throughout

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Speaker 1: this whole process, it's very cyclical. It happened over and

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Speaker 1: over again in regions all over the original well basically

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Speaker 1: everywhere east of the Mississippi River. So this would happen.

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Speaker 1: These people would spot encroach, didn't care what deal they

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Speaker 1: had made with the federal government, and so then there

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Speaker 1: would be retaliation by the Native American tribes and they

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Speaker 1: would they would fight each other. They would go, you know,

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Speaker 1: into battle, not huge wars, yet you know, these skirmishes

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Speaker 1: basically would take place, skirmishes and massacres on both sides

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Speaker 1: for sure. I mean, you gotta you have to say

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Speaker 1: it like. It was very bloody and very brutal on

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Speaker 1: both sides. So when white blood was spilled, the federal

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Speaker 1: government would arrive and say, probably shouldn't have done that. Uh,

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Speaker 1: maybe there would be a battle with the with the

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Speaker 1: the tribe that was being subdued at the time. Maybe

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Speaker 1: maybe not, But either way, the treaty that the government

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Speaker 1: hadn't been enforcing before now was officially out the door.

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Speaker 1: A new treaty had to be established that would include

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Speaker 1: seating even more lands to the federal government, which would

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Speaker 1: in turn be given to white settlers who would come

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Speaker 1: in and would then further encroach on the the Indian

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Speaker 1: land and the cycle would start over again. Alright, so

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Speaker 1: let's take a break. That was sort of the uh,

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Speaker 1: the setup for in culturation. We're gonna come back and

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Speaker 1: talk about the other side of the coin separation proposed

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Speaker 1: by one Thomas Jefferson right after this. All right, so

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Speaker 1: you got George Washington saying, assimilate into our society. Maybe

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Speaker 1: we can work this all out. It'll be great. There

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Speaker 1: won't be any problems. Do you have, Thomas Jefferson. George

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Speaker 1: Washington was a used car salesman. Uh. Then Thomas Jefferson

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Speaker 1: comes along and said, you know what, here's what we

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Speaker 1: should do. It's pretty clear that what will become our

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Speaker 1: United States. You didn't use those words, is like the

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Speaker 1: western borders is gonna be the Mississippi River. Who needs

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Speaker 1: anything west of the Mississippi, right, what's out there? Uh?

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Speaker 1: So here we have this Louisiana purchase. We just bought

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Speaker 1: eight hundred and twenty seven thousand square miles. Uh, a

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Speaker 1: lot of square miles. There's a lot of squy. We

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Speaker 1: should do one on that, by the way. At some point, um,

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Speaker 1: we did one on the Lewis and Clark expedition. They

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Speaker 1: had a lot to do with the Louis. Yeah, that

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Speaker 1: was one of my favorites do. Um. So he said,

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Speaker 1: you know, here's what we'll do. Why don't why don't

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Speaker 1: you we just relocate you folks west of the Mississippi.

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Speaker 1: That way, we've got our little country over here. You're

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Speaker 1: out there where we you know, you won't be bothered

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Speaker 1: by us anymore. Trust me, I'm Thomas Jefferson. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: it'll it'll work out for everyone. And then the Plains

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Speaker 1: Indians were going, what about us, We're already out here?

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Speaker 1: And then what, yeah, who are you? We don't recognize you. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And like you point out, there were some real problems,

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Speaker 1: one of which was it wasn't theirs to uh, to

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Speaker 1: resettle or to resettle other people, right because what would

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Speaker 1: become in the American's mind, Indian territory was already Indian territory.

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Speaker 1: It was just different. India but it also, I mean

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Speaker 1: it displays not like a lack of comprehension on the

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Speaker 1: part of the federal government, it displays a lack of

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Speaker 1: caring about what happened. It was like, there's already Indians

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Speaker 1: out here, there's not white people out here. We're probably

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Speaker 1: never gonna want to go out here. So get off

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Speaker 1: of this land and go out here. And how about this,

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Speaker 1: We'll say that the War Department will protect you. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And another big problem was these these eastern uh Native

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Speaker 1: Americans were like, well, we don't want to go out there.

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Speaker 1: We're used to the lush South and I don't know

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Speaker 1: how to succeed out there. Really, Yeah, have you read

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Speaker 1: our newspaper. We've been talking about this for years now.

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Speaker 1: We don't want to move. What was it called the

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Speaker 1: Cherokee Phoenix, which is kind of confusing. It wasn't at

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Speaker 1: the time because Phoenix didn't exist yet. But now Cherokee

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Speaker 1: or Phoenix, make up your mind what town. I don't

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Speaker 1: think they met the town, I know, because it didn't

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Speaker 1: exist yet. I get the joke. And did Phoenix burn

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Speaker 1: or something? Is that why it's called Phoenix? That I

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Speaker 1: don't know? Someone will tell us from Phoenix and then say,

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Speaker 1: why haven't you toward Phoenix yet? We'll come to Phoenix

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Speaker 1: at some point, right probably, or Tucson or Yuma. Didn't

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Speaker 1: He used to do time in Yuma. Yeah, I did

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Speaker 1: some hard time in hum. I don't know if we

347
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Speaker 1: could fill a small restaurant in Yuma. Okay, that's just

348
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Speaker 1: not a lot of people there. That's fine. Maybe you

349
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Speaker 1: never know, we'll do an intimate storytellers show an evening

350
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Speaker 1: with Josh and Charge at my former restaurant, Julietta's Patty

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Speaker 1: O Cafe. Nice. That's some buzz marketing right there. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I assume they're still around. So I think ultimately we

353
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Speaker 1: were talking about far through a soft track was um,

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Speaker 1: the Plains tribes were like, we're here, please don't send

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Speaker 1: anyone out here. And the Eastern tribes were like, we

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Speaker 1: don't want to move. What are you guys not kidding

357
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Speaker 1: about this? And so the federal government said, oh, this

358
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Speaker 1: is a real pickle. Where are we gonna do? Oh

359
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Speaker 1: we'll just ignore both. Well. Yeah, and also they were

360
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Speaker 1: I don't know how a where they were this, but

361
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Speaker 1: what was going on where these factions were being created

362
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Speaker 1: and within tribes they were being split into people who

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Speaker 1: wanted to kind of stay and defend their homeland and

364
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Speaker 1: people that were like, oh, maybe we should just pack

365
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Speaker 1: up and go and try and resettle somewhere else. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And this factionalism, it was kind of a recurring thing,

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Speaker 1: part of this big cycle and would end up in

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Speaker 1: many ways being their undoing I think. Yeah, and a

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00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:09,840
Speaker 1: lot of tribes basically split into like in eighteen seventeen, um,

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Speaker 1: it's a group of Cherokees said, you know what, forget it,

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Speaker 1: where is this gonna move to Indian territory? And they did.

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Speaker 1: They were called the old settlers, will move from Indian

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Speaker 1: territory to Indian territors, right, and they call his Indians

374
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Speaker 1: right exactly. Um, they ended up in Arkansas and then Oklahoma,

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Speaker 1: and basically we're the factionalism was already deep enough, but

376
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Speaker 1: the separation then following that factionalism effectively split the Cherokee

377
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Speaker 1: into two separate tribes, the Eastern and the Western. But

378
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,240
Speaker 1: they were no longer like it wasn't like the Eastern

379
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Speaker 1: was the satellite division or the Western was the satellite

380
00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:50,119
Speaker 1: division of the whole tribe. They were like two different

381
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Speaker 1: tribes as a result of that, and that happened with

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Speaker 1: more than just the Cherokee as well. This this whole

383
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Speaker 1: idea of should we stay in fight or should we

384
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Speaker 1: just say forget it and and move It was a

385
00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:03,240
Speaker 1: big problem. It was a big discussion that had a

386
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:07,680
Speaker 1: tough a tough solution because if you said we need

387
00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:10,320
Speaker 1: to move, well, then you needed to negotiate a treaty

388
00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:13,080
Speaker 1: so you could get as much land as possible out west.

389
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:16,320
Speaker 1: But if you wanted to stay, you needed as many

390
00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,680
Speaker 1: people as possible to stay because there's strength and safety

391
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:22,800
Speaker 1: in numbers. So the fact that it was split was

392
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:26,359
Speaker 1: a real problem for the tribes themselves. I wonder if

393
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Speaker 1: the tribes had not split up, and in fact, if

394
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Speaker 1: the tribes, all the different tribes had banded together, well,

395
00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,720
Speaker 1: they tried that. Well. I guess what I'm asking is

396
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Speaker 1: what what was the total population east of the Mississippi

397
00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:46,600
Speaker 1: River of Native Americans compared to white people. I don't know,

398
00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:50,879
Speaker 1: but I think it was significantly less, so they probably

399
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:54,240
Speaker 1: it probably wouldn't have mattered. No, but if you want

400
00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:59,119
Speaker 1: to get into alternate histories, if the if Native Americans

401
00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:02,760
Speaker 1: had had an immune I need a smallpox may not

402
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:06,600
Speaker 1: have been a United States because many more people, Yeah,

403
00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:08,560
Speaker 1: something like a hundred million or something like that, as

404
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,840
Speaker 1: much as Europe, all of Europe so had small bands

405
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:15,200
Speaker 1: of European colonists coming. Even if they'd sent like armies

406
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:17,440
Speaker 1: and stuff, they would have had a much harder time.

407
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:20,280
Speaker 1: But the fact that the North American continent had been

408
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:26,080
Speaker 1: effectively decimated um by smallpox, meant that there were far

409
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:29,440
Speaker 1: fewer people and that their cultures had had been hit

410
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:32,840
Speaker 1: in large part already by this breaking up of of

411
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Speaker 1: these epidemics. All right, so I gave the world or

412
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:41,960
Speaker 1: Hollywood um shark Nado okay um, a TV show on

413
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:48,080
Speaker 1: the alternate history where smallpox never happened and Native Americans

414
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,960
Speaker 1: ended up enslaving the white man. Make that into a

415
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:54,479
Speaker 1: show kind of like Man in the High Castle. But

416
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,199
Speaker 1: but you know, rewrite it for Native Americans coming out,

417
00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:01,399
Speaker 1: that'd be pretty good. Yeah. The white sellers are like, well, okay,

418
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:03,640
Speaker 1: we we get it. We've upset. You were just gonna leave.

419
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:05,720
Speaker 1: And the New Americans were like, you're not going anywhere.

420
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 1: You see that boat, it's on fire. That's our boat.

421
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:13,359
Speaker 1: We need that to escape, all right. So uh for

422
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:16,440
Speaker 1: the people that uh said, you know, we're gonna stay here.

423
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Speaker 1: We're going to resist. One. There was a big thing

424
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Speaker 1: that happened, well, a couple of things that happened that

425
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:27,040
Speaker 1: kind of set the course of history in one direction

426
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 1: that would never return. Right here in Georgia's particularly North Georgia,

427
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:37,879
Speaker 1: particularly Delonica, Georgia and other places. Um, there was gold discovered,

428
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:41,480
Speaker 1: and whenever there's gold discovered triggers a gold rush. A

429
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,399
Speaker 1: lot of people moved there, which means you need, you know,

430
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:49,000
Speaker 1: sort of supporting economy. You need guys named Cookie just

431
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,119
Speaker 1: to come out and cook the beans. Right. See, I

432
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 1: knew there would be humor in this everyone lats at Cookie. Uh.

433
00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:01,880
Speaker 1: So that couple huh I know. Um that coupled with

434
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:06,680
Speaker 1: the invention and widespread availability of the cotton gin from

435
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:10,760
Speaker 1: one Eli Whitney. Um, it lowered the barrier to getting

436
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:14,320
Speaker 1: into cotton farming. And so you have these people moving

437
00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:16,960
Speaker 1: south to get in the gold rush. Then you have

438
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 1: people moving south for this land that was now super

439
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 1: super valuable. Uh yeah. It went from like just being

440
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:30,240
Speaker 1: coveted to being like it's done, Like like playtime is over.

441
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 1: Where Like if you thought we were being nice before,

442
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 1: we're going to war with you guys. Now yeah, and

443
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,119
Speaker 1: and violence really kind of ramped up at this point,

444
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:40,720
Speaker 1: um because of the value of the land all of

445
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:44,360
Speaker 1: a sudden because of cotton and and white settlers were

446
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 1: basically like, we're taking this land. Yeah they were, they

447
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:52,199
Speaker 1: were provoking, Um, the Native Americans are assing them just

448
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 1: basically undertaking a terrorist campaign against the Native Americans on

449
00:25:56,080 --> 00:26:01,120
Speaker 1: their land. Uh. And then the federal government was being

450
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:05,200
Speaker 1: called the task for not doing more about the Indian problem.

451
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 1: So for a lot of the um Native Americans east

452
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:12,440
Speaker 1: of the Mississippi, they basically saw this writing on the wall,

453
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 1: like this is never going to stop, and we're gonna

454
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 1: have to go to war or we're gonna have to leave.

455
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,800
Speaker 1: And so that factionalism started to lean a lot more

456
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 1: towards people who were prepared to leave. There was still

457
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,119
Speaker 1: plenty who were prepared to stay as well. It just

458
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:32,200
Speaker 1: made that wedge even deeper, this understanding that like whites

459
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 1: were never gonna let up. Yeah, Like we've given them

460
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 1: some land and asked to keep some of it, right,

461
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,119
Speaker 1: and they say sure, but then they don't let us

462
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 1: keep that land. So this is not going to end

463
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:43,439
Speaker 1: well for us. Yeah, I mean, plus a lot of

464
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,400
Speaker 1: us are dying, they're killing our livestock, they're burning our

465
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:51,920
Speaker 1: our farms and houses. It was just a pretty horrible situation. Yeah.

466
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 1: I think early on this, in this piece you wrote,

467
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,280
Speaker 1: you called it possibly the darkest decade in American history,

468
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:04,679
Speaker 1: which is what like eighteen to eighty. Yeah. Alright, so

469
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,679
Speaker 1: the federal government does get involved in their first um

470
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 1: go at. This was saying in eighteen twenty four officially, like,

471
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 1: how about we have this voluntary relocation thing and it's

472
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 1: up to you. It's pretty nice out west, you know there,

473
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 1: you know, an Indian territory. And again they said, but

474
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 1: we're in Indian territory. And they said, well, we don't

475
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 1: know what you're talking about. It's pretty nice, so why

476
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,160
Speaker 1: don't you just pack your bags and get out there?

477
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:36,879
Speaker 1: And then along came a man, uh who it's fairly

478
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 1: controversial through the lens of history still today. Yeah, well

479
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:44,919
Speaker 1: more than ever probably today. Uh named Andrew Jackson from

480
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:48,159
Speaker 1: South Carolina. Yeah, he was born in South Carolina. He

481
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:53,400
Speaker 1: made his name as a frontiersman lawyer, you know, which

482
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,119
Speaker 1: is what does that even mean? I defend people for

483
00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 1: like squirrel related charges, they think? And he uh, he

484
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 1: also was a wealthy planter, slave owner. But more than anything,

485
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,480
Speaker 1: he was elected president because he was the people's candidate,

486
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:10,359
Speaker 1: and he was the people's candidate because he was a

487
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 1: war hero and very famous Indian fighter is what he

488
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:19,640
Speaker 1: was known as. Yeah, and weirdly uh an Indian fighter,

489
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 1: but also had which was at the Choctaw that fought

490
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:28,120
Speaker 1: with him alongside him at the Battle of New Orleans. Yeah.

491
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:30,160
Speaker 1: So this which he kind of forgot or didn't forget

492
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,400
Speaker 1: but didn't care much about. Right, this is the factionalism

493
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 1: also resulted in tribes splitting and actually going to civil

494
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 1: war with one another, and so some that were in

495
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 1: favor of accommodating um the whites or the federal government

496
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 1: would actually fight alongside them against the other members of

497
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 1: their tribe, and some of them did fight directly under

498
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 1: Jackson at the Battle of New Orleans. So yeah, he

499
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 1: was like that was years ago. Who cares. So he

500
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 1: had a nickname the sharp Knife for the long knife,

501
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 1: because one of the things that he advocated for was genocide. Basically, um,

502
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 1: kill all the women and children once we're done and

503
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 1: we've had our victory, and that will really kind of

504
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 1: take care of this area. Yeah, which is it's really

505
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 1: surprising that I looked all over it didn't find any

506
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 1: specific like this instant or this incident really characterizes that mentality.

507
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 1: He seemed to advocate it rhetorically, and he was he

508
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 1: he was a vicious um commander, military commander as far

509
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 1: as fighting Indians went. But I didn't run across anything

510
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 1: where he actually did just exterminate a whole village. And

511
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 1: he had plenty of opportunities too, So I guess he

512
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 1: thought he was a good idea, but never really pulled

513
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 1: the trigger or something like that. But I was really

514
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 1: surprised because I've always heard he was basically genocidal, but

515
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 1: I never found any specific instance him carrying out what

516
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 1: amounted to genocide. He just advocated did it well, they

517
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,280
Speaker 1: didn't have cell phone cameras, that's true. Who knows what

518
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 1: would have happened. Um. So you also bring up a

519
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 1: good point, which is that this, uh, this practice of

520
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 1: of massacre was happening on both sides. When the American

521
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 1: Indians would win a battle, um many times, they would

522
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 1: also have a massacre of women and children, burned down

523
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 1: an entire fort. Perhaps, um what was it fort? The

524
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 1: massacre at Fort Mims in Alabama or what would be

525
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:34,720
Speaker 1: Alabama in eighteen thirteen is one of the prime examples. Yeah,

526
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 1: the so the Creeks were became a very deeply divided

527
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 1: tribe with um accommodationists fighting with the federal government against

528
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 1: the resistance groups which basically came to be known as

529
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 1: the Red Sticks. And the Red Sticks were basically a

530
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 1: an Indian army in the War of eighteen twelve. It's

531
00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 1: prior to the War of eighteen twelve, some of the

532
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 1: northern front tier tribes had kind of come down led

533
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 1: by to come say, I think, had come down and

534
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 1: basically rallied everybody they could and said we need to

535
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 1: like stop this white encroachment once for all and go

536
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 1: to war and all just come together for good our

537
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 1: differences and come together and beat back the federal government

538
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 1: and these white settlers. And when the War of eighteen

539
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 1: twelve broke out, these groups sided with the British and

540
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 1: this gave the federal government license to basically declare war

541
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 1: on the frontier UH tribes, including the Red Sticks. And

542
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 1: at the Battle of Fort Mims, the Red Sticks surrounded

543
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 1: Fort Mims and inside where a bunch of white settlers

544
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 1: um some African American slaves, some accommodation ast Creeks, and

545
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 1: then some federal troops and they set the fort on

546
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 1: fire and killed almost everybody, including women and children. Yeah,

547
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 1: but interestingly, they spared the lives of most of the

548
00:31:55,760 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 1: slaves and took them hostage. So I like how you

549
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:05,480
Speaker 1: kind of brought in the the how slaves factored into

550
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 1: this whole thing, because I think a lot of that

551
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 1: is sort of brushed aside, you know, pretty interesting stuff.

552
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 1: And then you said, Chuck that Jackson kind of forgot

553
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 1: any alliance with Indians that fought with them. This is

554
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 1: a great example of that. After this, this war with

555
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 1: the Creeks, there was a second war with the Creeks

556
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 1: um shortly after, and after that the Creeks as a

557
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 1: whole were forced to see um their land. In fifteen

558
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 1: thousand of them were forced to move out west after

559
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 1: this battle, despite the fact that that included plenty of

560
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:43,959
Speaker 1: them who had fought alongside Jackson's federal troops. It's just,

561
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 1: I mean, no a lotman whatsoever. It was from what

562
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 1: I understand that Jackson, you're an Indian. That was that

563
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 1: it didn't matter what you did, you were an Indian.

564
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 1: You needed to go. Yeah, and it's important to point out,

565
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 1: like um you did here that there were massacres on

566
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 1: both sides. And while you can never justify the killing

567
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 1: of families and women and children in such a like

568
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 1: a vicious way, the white people were the invading force here.

569
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:14,720
Speaker 1: You know, Um, that's kind of a pretty big factor here,

570
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 1: is I mean, I yeah, I think it is. Yeah. Um,

571
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 1: all right, well let's take another break and we're gonna

572
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 1: come back and talk about Florida. Al right, Florida, Florida seventeen,

573
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 1: the Sunshine State. Um boy, I used to love when

574
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 1: I would go to Florida as a kid. Imagine they

575
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 1: still do this. You would get free orange juice at

576
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 1: the state line. Did they still do that? That's great?

577
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 1: I just thought, like, oh my gosh, like anything free.

578
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 1: I still have that mentality. Have state prisoners lined up

579
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 1: and they just pull over on the shoulder and the

580
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 1: your cup of orange juice? Did you drive off? I

581
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:10,360
Speaker 1: used to love the official I still do. I just

582
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:12,319
Speaker 1: don't take a ton of road trips the official like

583
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,840
Speaker 1: rest stations instead of you know, just hitting the gas station,

584
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:18,959
Speaker 1: go to like the official what are they called rest

585
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:23,359
Speaker 1: rest areas? Yeah, rest area. Man, it's like a gas

586
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:26,799
Speaker 1: station without gas. Yeah, and I had no idea how

587
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 1: many crimes are being committed, like behind the outhouse. Yeah,

588
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 1: there's what was it? What was the movie where that had?

589
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,759
Speaker 1: Was it? There's something about Mary? Oh yeah, we're Ben

590
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:43,400
Speaker 1: Stiller was He's like to take a leak in the

591
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 1: woods and he got caught up in something, some sting operation. Um, alright,

592
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 1: so it's eighteen seventeen. Uh, Jackson says, you know what,

593
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:56,839
Speaker 1: Florida's kind of nice. I might like to take it

594
00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 1: for my own. Uh. They have orange juice on the yeah,

595
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:02,400
Speaker 1: the state line. But there was a problem. It was

596
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 1: under Spanish rule at the time, and the Florida was

597
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 1: kind of a crazy place back then. It was a

598
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:13,240
Speaker 1: safe haven for militant Indians, runaway slaves, anyone who basically

599
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 1: was an enemy of uh Americans. Yeah, the Seminole tribe

600
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:21,919
Speaker 1: was like, you hate America, to come join us? And

601
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 1: uh there were Yeah, there were maroons is what they

602
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:28,320
Speaker 1: were called. But runaway slaves who had found uh safety

603
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,719
Speaker 1: living amongst the Seminoles in Spain would arm them, right

604
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:35,280
Speaker 1: they because they were they would harass the United States

605
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 1: and the federal the federal army and the plantations along

606
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:41,720
Speaker 1: the border. Right, so the fact that there were runaway

607
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 1: slaves down there with the Seminoles gave Jackson just enough

608
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:50,759
Speaker 1: of a uh reason to invade, not a legal reason. No,

609
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 1: he basically waged in illegal guerrilla war in Florida, Spanish

610
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 1: Florida against the Seminole and then when he whenever he

611
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,479
Speaker 1: came across the Spanish fort, he just take that out

612
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 1: and then he claimed that land as um American. Yeah,

613
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 1: and this was under the order the secret order of

614
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 1: President James Monroe. Meaning Jackson went to Monroe and said, hey,

615
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 1: we should stage a guerrilla war down there in Florida

616
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:19,319
Speaker 1: so we can grab some land. And Monroe said, are

617
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:24,120
Speaker 1: you crazy? And he said crazy like a fox. And

618
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 1: Monroe basically said, yeah, go go do your thing, and uh,

619
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:32,239
Speaker 1: it's illegal, but who cares, right, Just don't don't implicate

620
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 1: me if you get caught. And he I mean, the

621
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 1: Congress knew what was going on. There are people calling

622
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:41,919
Speaker 1: for him to be recalled to uh Jackson, that is right, right, yeah,

623
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 1: no one I I you still run across historical documents, um, well,

624
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 1: not not first first or primary sources or anything, but

625
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:53,799
Speaker 1: like analysis of of this era, and Monroe does not

626
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 1: get mentioned. Only find him like here or they're um.

627
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 1: So he kept his cover pretty well. But Jackson was

628
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 1: more than happy to take the fall. And when he

629
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 1: came back finally after the first Seminole War, Um, he

630
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,480
Speaker 1: came back to hero. He carved out large portions of

631
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:13,320
Speaker 1: Florida for the United States. He had fought the Seminole

632
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:18,280
Speaker 1: He had lost, but he still had gained enough ground

633
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 1: against the Spanish at least that he was considered a hero. Yeah. Boy, this,

634
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:25,319
Speaker 1: I mean, this was the first Seminole War. Will get

635
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 1: to the others, but they were. They were a tenacious group.

636
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you don't mess with the Seminole. I think

637
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 1: that was her motto. I think. Uh so Jackson was

638
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:40,399
Speaker 1: a hero such that he was elected president in and um,

639
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:45,480
Speaker 1: who how do you call his followers? Um, you say

640
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 1: backwoods frontiersman. Yeah, that's a good way to say it.

641
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 1: But his inauguration party was so wild that these visitors

642
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 1: that came to see the inauguration trash the White House

643
00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 1: and they said, moved this party outside. You you folks

644
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:04,319
Speaker 1: are out of hand. And so it depending on what

645
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:08,360
Speaker 1: who you read, either it was great that Jackson opened

646
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 1: the White House up to the American people for his

647
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:15,880
Speaker 1: inauguration party, and the Washington elite got the vapors and

648
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 1: fainted or uh it was just a bunch of brutes

649
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:22,480
Speaker 1: just trashing the White House who didn't know how to

650
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 1: conduct themselves because they were all drunk on whiskey and

651
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:29,080
Speaker 1: wearing raccoons on their heads, some of which were still alive. Really.

652
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,800
Speaker 1: Uh So, Jackson, needless to say, was a divisive figure

653
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 1: in American history, so much so that his party was

654
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 1: split during his candidacy. Think about that. Yeah, the candidate

655
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 1: for the Democrats was so divisive that the Democratics party

656
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 1: party split in two during the election year. Imagine such

657
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 1: a thing. That's crazy, it is. And this also made

658
00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:01,319
Speaker 1: me want to do a show on the history of

659
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:04,799
Speaker 1: political parties in the United States and how they have

660
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:13,239
Speaker 1: uh yeah, two major times. And which is why when

661
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:15,800
Speaker 1: you I don't know, if you do too much social

662
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 1: media uh stuff so at all and you see people,

663
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 1: you know, harping about like, well, the Democrats were in

664
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:28,359
Speaker 1: favor of this and the Republicans were in favor of this,

665
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:31,640
Speaker 1: It's like, we'll do a little research. These are names

666
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 1: that can't be applied, as you know, for three hundred years,

667
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 1: as one single, solitary set of values. No, they s

668
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 1: which sides A couple of times switched hats. So what

669
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:47,879
Speaker 1: were the two? Uh, the Democrats and the Whigs. Yeah,

670
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 1: the Whigs banned one of my favorites. Oh yeah, Afghan Wigs. No, no, no,

671
00:39:53,200 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 1: the Whigs inspiral carpets. But the Whigs athens in Atlanta's

672
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 1: own oh hey wigs with an h uh. Yeah, we

673
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:07,760
Speaker 1: were the old Man band covers a few of their songs,

674
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 1: probably too many, Okay, I'd just be like, oh, I

675
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:14,480
Speaker 1: guess this is an original of el chiepos if I

676
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 1: heard it, well, there are no originals. Well, then I'd

677
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 1: have to correct myself. That's right. So Jackson had this belief,

678
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:24,839
Speaker 1: if you haven't picked up on it by now, that

679
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:27,839
Speaker 1: the right of discovery was more important than the right

680
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 1: of occupancy. Right and by discovery meaning oh hey, look

681
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:35,919
Speaker 1: there's some Indian land we would like get off. Yes,

682
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 1: that was basically the view that Jackson held. The thing was,

683
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 1: it wasn't just Jackson again. He was a very popular,

684
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:48,440
Speaker 1: considered the people's president who came into power against the

685
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 1: entrenched elite who were considered corrupt um, and he had

686
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 1: a lot of public support behind him. Yeah, like, like

687
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 1: we said earlier, we can use a land better than

688
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,359
Speaker 1: you can, and you're getting in the way of our

689
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:06,279
Speaker 1: ultimate prosperity. Right, So he had he gave a State

690
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 1: of the Union address in eighteen thirty that really sums

691
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:11,399
Speaker 1: that up. His views on that. He said, what good

692
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 1: man would prefer a country covered with forests arranged by

693
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 1: a few thousand savages to our extensive republic, studied with cities, towns,

694
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:23,640
Speaker 1: and prosperous farms, embellished with all the improvements which art

695
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 1: can devised or industry execute, occupied by more than twelve

696
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:32,760
Speaker 1: million happy people, and filled with all the blessings of liberty, civilization,

697
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:36,840
Speaker 1: and religion. And every American Indian raised her hand said me,

698
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 1: and he well, not you. I mean, what white person

699
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 1: would prefer a country I should have qualified that, I

700
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:45,400
Speaker 1: see now, But like you said, he had. You know,

701
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 1: that was sort of the popular opinion at the time

702
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:50,720
Speaker 1: as we came over here, fought for our independence and

703
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:55,279
Speaker 1: uh so, so you know, let's really grow this country. Right.

704
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:59,440
Speaker 1: We've got technology, that's right, so let's put it to use.

705
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:04,320
Speaker 1: But it wasn't everyone, though there was one Henry Clay. Uh,

706
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:07,440
Speaker 1: shout out to our old friends Joey and and Ecra

707
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:10,440
Speaker 1: of the great band the Henry Clay People, which is

708
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:12,279
Speaker 1: no more. They did a theme for this stuff you

709
00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:16,600
Speaker 1: should know TV show, that's right. Um. So, Henry Clay

710
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:19,399
Speaker 1: was a candidate for the National Democratic Party, so they

711
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:22,240
Speaker 1: were the Whigs right just before they were called the Whigs.

712
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:24,120
Speaker 1: That's right. And they said, what's a better name for

713
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:28,319
Speaker 1: a band? Actually, National Democratic Party. Pretty good band name.

714
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 1: It's okay, not bad. Um. There are quite a few

715
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:34,680
Speaker 1: good band names in here, but I didn't say any

716
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:36,839
Speaker 1: of them because it would just be a bunch of

717
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:40,680
Speaker 1: like white hipster dudes kind of ripping off some cool

718
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 1: Native American name. So I'm not even going to mention them.

719
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, Indian Territory, there probably is a band

720
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 1: called that. Um. So, Henry Clay was running for the

721
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:56,479
Speaker 1: National Democratic Party of the Whigs, and at two he said,

722
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:58,719
Speaker 1: you know, part of a big part of my platform

723
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 1: is to respect uh, they're the Native American claim to

724
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 1: their own land and to oppose Jackson's Indian removal policies. Yeah,

725
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 1: and everyone, well not everyone. He lost pretty big. Yeah,

726
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:17,880
Speaker 1: but he basically dedicated his campaign to opposing Jackson. So

727
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:21,279
Speaker 1: go Henry Clay. Yeah, there's a guy, a senator from

728
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:26,800
Speaker 1: New Jersey named Theodore frayleng Using. Wasn't the German immigrant

729
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 1: at all? Was he? He? He gave a six hour

730
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 1: speech in opposition to Indian removal. He had a pretty

731
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:35,920
Speaker 1: good quote. You want to take that one. Yeah, no

732
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:39,840
Speaker 1: argument can shake the political maxim that where the Indian

733
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:43,240
Speaker 1: always has been, he enjoys the absolute right to still

734
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 1: be in the free exercise of his own modes of thought, government,

735
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:51,319
Speaker 1: and conduct. And the populace is like, no, screw that.

736
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 1: We want to farm cotton and get gold. Have you

737
00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:00,160
Speaker 1: ever been gold mining up there in Delanaga? No, but

738
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 1: you know that's where that there's golden them our hills.

739
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 1: That's where it comes from. Is the mayor of Delawaga? Really,

740
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:08,319
Speaker 1: I should say gold Panning. They don't let you do

741
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:10,440
Speaker 1: gold mining in there, but you can go up there

742
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:12,360
Speaker 1: in gold pan They cut your arms off if you

743
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:15,160
Speaker 1: tried to gold mine up there. They take it seriously.

744
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:19,120
Speaker 1: Another big critic of Indian removal, and we should totally

745
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 1: do a podcast, Davy Crockett. We did know that we did.

746
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:26,120
Speaker 1: Why was Davy Crockett King of the Wild Frontier. Wow,

747
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:29,879
Speaker 1: he said you may go to Hell and I will

748
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:33,520
Speaker 1: go to Texas. Yeah, we talked about it. Yeah, just

749
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:36,360
Speaker 1: in the last couple of years. No, I swear, all right,

750
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 1: I'm gonna look that up. Well right now, you keep talking,

751
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:41,440
Speaker 1: all right. So Davy Crockett, who I completely forgot that

752
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:45,560
Speaker 1: we podcasted on UM, was against his Indian removal and

753
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:47,400
Speaker 1: he actually, like you said, he threatened to leave the

754
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 1: US for Texas if well, he was the first one

755
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:54,719
Speaker 1: to do that. If Martin van Buren was elected and

756
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:57,960
Speaker 1: he was basically Jackson's successor that was going to kind

757
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 1: of keep up this UM. No in the Indian removal

758
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:06,400
Speaker 1: was the best path forward, and um van Buren was elected.

759
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 1: So Crockett said, all right, I'm going to Texas and

760
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:12,960
Speaker 1: he did so, yeah, he did. He lost his Senate

761
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 1: bid and he says, he said, you may go to

762
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 1: Hell and I will go to Tech, which is Tennessee. Correct,

763
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:24,319
Speaker 1: this Senate bid. We did the episode in August two. Wow. Yeah,

764
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 1: it's getting bad. Well that was almost like ten years ago. Yeah,

765
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 1: big shout out to Jill Hurley. By the way, our

766
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:36,600
Speaker 1: official stat keeper. Yeah, thanks Jill Um. She has really

767
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:38,480
Speaker 1: done a good job with a spreadsheet that keeps track

768
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 1: of how many episodes we've done. She's basically the only

769
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 1: person on the planet who knows for sure how many

770
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:46,360
Speaker 1: original episodes we've really Yeah, we have her locked away

771
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:51,640
Speaker 1: at the Seed Vault in Norway. Um it is Norway, right,

772
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:55,080
Speaker 1: But Jill just wrote us and she said that I

773
00:45:55,160 --> 00:46:00,520
Speaker 1: believe this November, November two will be somewhere. It will

774
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 1: be one thousand episodes. Crazy, it's crazy. They won't let

775
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:08,840
Speaker 1: us leave. And all that is to say, please forgive

776
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:11,359
Speaker 1: me if I forget that we did Davy Crockett just

777
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:13,919
Speaker 1: three years ago. Yeah, if he was said three months ago,

778
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:16,080
Speaker 1: I would have just got it been left this August,

779
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 1: it will be four years ago. Okay, so you're fine, yeah,

780
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:22,840
Speaker 1: because I don't remember anything after one year. So they're

781
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 1: also a lot of missionaries who had worked with especially

782
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:31,879
Speaker 1: the Five Civilized Tribes. Very interesting story there. They saw

783
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:35,040
Speaker 1: it to oppose in your removal as well. Uh, and

784
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:37,600
Speaker 1: the like we're trying to make these people Christians, right,

785
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:41,080
Speaker 1: you're messing up our bag. And the federal government was like, well,

786
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:45,480
Speaker 1: that's a really great point. But we don't care. And um,

787
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:48,400
Speaker 1: at first we should say we keep saying the federal government.

788
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:50,720
Speaker 1: The federal government was trying to figure out the best

789
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 1: way forward. What they finally settled on was Jefferson's plan

790
00:46:55,200 --> 00:47:00,840
Speaker 1: for UH separation, but that that removal, that separations should

791
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:04,680
Speaker 1: be through a voluntary, peaceful removal. Right. The white settlers

792
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:09,040
Speaker 1: and then the states themselves were harassing the Indians on

793
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:12,320
Speaker 1: the ground. Right, Whereas the federal government was like, hey,

794
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 1: let's let's just try this or let's do that or

795
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:16,520
Speaker 1: something like that wasn't the reality of what was really

796
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:18,600
Speaker 1: going on there. And a good example of that is

797
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:21,839
Speaker 1: Georgia passed a law that said that, um, if you

798
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:24,840
Speaker 1: are white, you have to apply for a license to

799
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:29,640
Speaker 1: live with Native Americans missionaries. And then if you were

800
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:35,400
Speaker 1: a missionary, they'd be like approval denied or application denied, yes,

801
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 1: either way. Right. Um, So things were kind of going

802
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 1: along like this for a little while, and then finally

803
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:47,279
Speaker 1: UH in eighteen thirty, the official stance was made into

804
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 1: law with the Indian Removal Act. Right, And this is

805
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:53,120
Speaker 1: what really set into motion what would become known as

806
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:56,759
Speaker 1: the Trail of Tears, right, and the that all that harassment,

807
00:47:56,840 --> 00:48:01,680
Speaker 1: all of the illegal activity, all the encroachment UM and

808
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:06,000
Speaker 1: mistreatment by white settlers and the states was now enshrined

809
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:08,480
Speaker 1: in federal law. It was now official policy under the

810
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:13,839
Speaker 1: Jackson administration. Yeah, and that policy said broadly that, um,

811
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:17,320
Speaker 1: the President can come in, they can negotiate these treaties

812
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:21,400
Speaker 1: with tribes, these land deals. Uh. And we could grant

813
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:25,839
Speaker 1: land um in the Indian Territory west of the Mississippi

814
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:28,600
Speaker 1: and relocate you. We have legal claim to do so

815
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:31,120
Speaker 1: right now some of if you're if any of your

816
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:34,359
Speaker 1: people want to stay, they can stay. Uh. They will

817
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:38,279
Speaker 1: become citizens of the state they live in. Not full citizens,

818
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:41,359
Speaker 1: but it's kind of citizens. Will call them. You can

819
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:43,040
Speaker 1: get a little bit of land too, Yep. They'll be

820
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:44,759
Speaker 1: given a parcel of land, but it's not going to

821
00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:47,760
Speaker 1: be their ancestral land. Will decide what land it turns

822
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:51,120
Speaker 1: out to be. But they're basically just gonna be acclimated

823
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:55,240
Speaker 1: and assimilated. And then what's more, Uh, if you choose

824
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:59,799
Speaker 1: to move, the War Department will enforce the treaties that

825
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:02,120
Speaker 1: we have with you. They'll keep people off of your land,

826
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:05,440
Speaker 1: native white or otherwise. Yeah, and they'll also help you

827
00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 1: relocate to help you get settled out there on the

828
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:12,759
Speaker 1: plains and make sure you're all taken care of. So

829
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:15,200
Speaker 1: as we've seen, the Creeks and the Seminoles have both

830
00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:18,279
Speaker 1: said we're not leaving, and we're gonna fight you. Right.

831
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:21,760
Speaker 1: The Cherokee tried a different tax, They tried the courts.

832
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 1: Actually it was very smart, actually because what they did

833
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:28,480
Speaker 1: was they went back and used the federal government's own

834
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:33,360
Speaker 1: uh declaration against them because they said, hey, you know,

835
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:35,920
Speaker 1: a while back, in order to make these deals, you

836
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:40,080
Speaker 1: had to official you they you made us a sovereign people, right,

837
00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:43,160
Speaker 1: we made our land sovereign land. The federal government recognized

838
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:46,839
Speaker 1: them as a sovereign nation in order to carry out

839
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:50,319
Speaker 1: these treaties where they ceded land to the federal government. Yeah,

840
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:52,799
Speaker 1: said so you remember when you did that, Well, you

841
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:55,480
Speaker 1: said that yourself, we're sovereign people. Yeah, and we just

842
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:59,720
Speaker 1: drummed up this constitution. Were a sovereign nation with sovereign

843
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:02,560
Speaker 1: soil within the borders of the US. And the Supreme

844
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:07,040
Speaker 1: Court actually affirmed that and said, you know what, sorry, guys,

845
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:09,840
Speaker 1: the Cherokees at least are a sovereign nation and you

846
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:12,399
Speaker 1: can't remove them. They said, you really didn't think this through,

847
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:17,239
Speaker 1: and uhty one. They ruled against Georgia in favor of

848
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:22,000
Speaker 1: that sovereignty. And um, you point out that's all well

849
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:25,959
Speaker 1: and fine, but that requires a president that says, oh well,

850
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:29,040
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court said so, so I guess that's the deal. Yeah,

851
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:31,800
Speaker 1: and Andrew Jackson was not that way. There's actually a

852
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:34,680
Speaker 1: quote he was talking about Justice John Marshall, who wrote

853
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:38,359
Speaker 1: the majority opinion siding with the Cherokees. He said, Mr

854
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:41,319
Speaker 1: Marshall has made his decision, now let him enforce it,

855
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:47,200
Speaker 1: so called judge right. So, the the idea that you

856
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:50,239
Speaker 1: have to have an executive branch willing to uphold or

857
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:54,399
Speaker 1: respect the decisions of the judicial branch in order for

858
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:58,439
Speaker 1: those those judgments to be carried out. If you don't

859
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:00,680
Speaker 1: have that, and you don't have a Congress that will

860
00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:05,120
Speaker 1: check an executive that's that's not doing that, or a

861
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:09,240
Speaker 1: public that will, then things like the Indian Removal process

862
00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:13,720
Speaker 1: are allowed to happen. And on paper, Indian Removal Act

863
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:17,920
Speaker 1: was supposed to be beneficial to Native Americans. It was

864
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:21,360
Speaker 1: supposed to be something that could be carried out peacefully

865
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:26,360
Speaker 1: in actuality under the administration of Andrew Jackson. It was

866
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:30,759
Speaker 1: a humanitarian travesty. Uh. So that's the end of part one.

867
00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:34,000
Speaker 1: I have no listener mail in our tradition of two parters,

868
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:36,640
Speaker 1: and in the tradition of those serious different stroke two

869
00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:40,480
Speaker 1: parters is where we got it. So yeah, we'll hold

870
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:43,160
Speaker 1: off on listener mail, but you can you can send

871
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:46,240
Speaker 1: us out traditionally. Oh yeah, okay, well, uh, stay tuned

872
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:48,960
Speaker 1: for part two coming out on Thursday. And uh. In

873
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:50,640
Speaker 1: the meantime, if you want to get in touch with us,

874
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:53,839
Speaker 1: tweet to us at s y s K podcast, join

875
00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:56,040
Speaker 1: us on Facebook dot com, slash stuff you should Know.

876
00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:58,640
Speaker 1: It's all good again. There by the way, sorry about

877
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:02,760
Speaker 1: the hacking. Technically it's not hacking. Send us an email

878
00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:07,520
Speaker 1: to Wow that is really somebody said that. Send us

879
00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:10,040
Speaker 1: an email to Stuff podcast at how stuff Works dot

880
00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:12,040
Speaker 1: com and has always joined us at our home on

881
00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:19,239
Speaker 1: the web, Stuff you Should Know dot com for more

882
00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:21,600
Speaker 1: on this and thousands of other topics. Is it how

883
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:33,080
Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com.