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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let

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Speaker 1: you know this is a compiletion episode. So every episode

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Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 1: there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you

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Speaker 1: can make your own decisions. And then the welcome to

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Speaker 1: it could happen here A podcast that is today about

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Speaker 1: something that did happen here and absolutely sucked. And with

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Speaker 1: me to talk about the Atlanta shooting is Scarrison. Hello, Hi,

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Speaker 1: not happy to be here? Yeah, yeah, no, this is

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Speaker 1: this is not a we're not talking about a current event.

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Speaker 1: This happened like what was it last year? So yeah,

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Speaker 1: in case someone's listening, I'm wondering if there was another one. No,

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Speaker 1: this is specifically talking about Actually there have been a

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Speaker 1: couple of shootings in Atlanta since then, obviously there. Yes,

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Speaker 1: we're talking about is from from last year and the

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Speaker 1: ties into many of the topics we discussed at the show. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: a March sixteenth, two thowy one, Robert Aaron Long, a

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Speaker 1: regular at Young's Asian massage, refused to tip after getting

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Speaker 1: a massage shout you a ton. The SPA's owner confronted

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Speaker 1: him about the tip. Long simply walked away. He got dressed,

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Speaker 1: went to the bathroom, pulled out his gun and started shooting,

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Speaker 1: leaving shout you ton dying on the floor. Driving from

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Speaker 1: spot to spa, Long shot nine people and killed eight.

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Speaker 1: The loan wounded survivor, Alicia Fernandez Ortiz, got on his

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Speaker 1: knees and begged Long not to shoot. Long shot him anyways.

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Speaker 1: There's a there's a there's a tendency, when confronted with

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Speaker 1: true horror, to retreat into abstraction, as if the abstract

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Speaker 1: is sheltered from the violence of the storm. I intend,

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Speaker 1: if briefly, to do it myself. But there is no

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Speaker 1: safety there, only the same violence, repeated again and again

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Speaker 1: and again in a thousand ways, with a thousand names,

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Speaker 1: wearing a thousand faces. Because this is hell and we

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Speaker 1: live in it, So on onto the abstract. There's a

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Speaker 1: concept in Marxism called trigger um. It's a German word.

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Speaker 1: It's usually translated as bearer, in the sense of an

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Speaker 1: individual capitalist being the bearer of capitalist social relations. They

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Speaker 1: enact this relation by you know, turning capital into more capital,

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Speaker 1: which is what makes a capitalists. Uh. There is you know,

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Speaker 1: literally endless debate over what this actually means. Most of

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Speaker 1: it is pointless, and the meeting is contested enough that

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Speaker 1: I'm going to abuse it a bit further and argue

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Speaker 1: that a person can become a bearer of historical forces

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Speaker 1: larger than themselves. Robert Aaron Long was the bearer of

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Speaker 1: a great number of historical forces. He bore the violent

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Speaker 1: of capitalism, of misogyny, of racism, of horror, phobia, of whiteness,

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Speaker 1: of Christianity itself, and he unleash it into the world.

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Speaker 1: It's just like the idea of like invoking, right drawing

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Speaker 1: on these external ideas into yourself and then becoming them

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Speaker 1: for like a brief period of time. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think it's slightly different in that with bearing, it's

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Speaker 1: it's not so much that that you're briefly invoking them,

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Speaker 1: it's that you're you're constantly a part of the relation.

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Speaker 1: So theclation defines you and it and you you sort

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Speaker 1: of you constantly enacted by the things that you do,

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Speaker 1: and in doing like the relation reel. It's more of

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Speaker 1: like an ever present thing that is Yeah, Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: it's it's yeah. It's something that's just sort of structures

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Speaker 1: how the society works. Right, Like, we're all sort of

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Speaker 1: like enacting the wage relation, right every time we like

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Speaker 1: do like, you know, like doing this right now by

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Speaker 1: doing our jobs. Yeah, we are re enacting the wage relation. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I think I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: people after the shooting were left asking, you know why,

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Speaker 1: And you know, we can name social and historical forces,

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Speaker 1: we can talk about sort of antiation, violence and racism

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Speaker 1: and horophobia, but what does it actually mean? And you

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Speaker 1: know what, what are the forces that Long unleashed in

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Speaker 1: this world? What do they look like? And I think

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Speaker 1: I think we have we have a good example of

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Speaker 1: this from right after Long was arrested. Police Captain J.

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Speaker 1: Baker the Cherokee Sheriff's Department said this to reporters at

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Speaker 1: a press conference. This is about Long and the shooting.

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Speaker 1: He was pretty much fed up and at the end

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Speaker 1: of his rope, and yesterday it was a really bad

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Speaker 1: day for him, and this is what he did. He

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Speaker 1: apparently has an issue what he considers a sex addiction

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Speaker 1: and he sees these locations as something that allow him

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Speaker 1: to go to these places, and it's a temptation for

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Speaker 1: him that he wanted to eliminate. Now, yeah, that there

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Speaker 1: there was a lot going on in in in in

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Speaker 1: the is like two sentences, Um, so you know Cherokee

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Speaker 1: Sheriff's Department. Oh yeah, there is. There is so much

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Speaker 1: like there's somebody, somebody somebody later. Yeah, it's incredible. One

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Speaker 1: of the things that we're going to go more into

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Speaker 1: the next episode is it like this, this is where

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Speaker 1: I what's his name? This is where the guy who

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Speaker 1: just like drew a random line on a map that

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Speaker 1: he found from like that he pulled out of his

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Speaker 1: like national geographic thing who divided Korea and half like

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Speaker 1: this is where he's from. There's this is Yeah, there

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Speaker 1: is a there's a lot of historical violence in this

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Speaker 1: very specific part of Georgia that is all coming together here.

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Speaker 1: And oh yeah, his school was also super racist, Like

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Speaker 1: there's they had a mascot that was like doing all

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Speaker 1: the racist stuff. Yeah. Yeah, And you know, before we

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Speaker 1: go any further, it's worth mentioning that, like almost immediately

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Speaker 1: after the honorable Police Captain gave that press conference, a

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Speaker 1: bunch of people on the Internet found out that Baker

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Speaker 1: had posted like a shirt that said uh COVID nineteen

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Speaker 1: and imported virus from China. I remember this. Yeah, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: sheriff was pretty pretty racist himself. Yeah, a part of

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Speaker 1: many many anti Asian tropes relating to conspiracy theories. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is you know this, this this is classic twenties

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Speaker 1: like anti Asian rhetoric. It's you know, it's stuff that's

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Speaker 1: led directly to hundreds of attacks nation Americans since it

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Speaker 1: started the pandemic. And you know, the race is on

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Speaker 1: slot driven by every sector of American society. Now people

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Speaker 1: immediately start speculating that Jay Baker had collaborated with Long

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Speaker 1: to cover up the racial like motivation for his violence.

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Speaker 1: And okay, I think there's some truth to this. The

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Speaker 1: cops have been collaborating with Long and his family in

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Speaker 1: various ways. I'm going to read a part of an

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Speaker 1: article in Vanity Fair written by the journalist May Jong

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Speaker 1: called how the Atlantis Boss shooting the victims the survivors

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Speaker 1: tell a story of America? Which is it? This is

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Speaker 1: one of the best things that anyone's written about shooting

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Speaker 1: so far. I'm going to read a little bit offit

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Speaker 1: because it's oh boy. I ring the bell at the

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Speaker 1: family home. No one answered. Before I could decide what

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Speaker 1: to do, a police cruiser showed up. An officer who

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Speaker 1: introduced himself as Sergeant Clement, explained that the neighbors multiple

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Speaker 1: people had called to report suspicious activity. The one good

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Speaker 1: thing about Cherokee County, he told me, is that we

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Speaker 1: look out for each other. It's like how it used

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Speaker 1: to be in the seventies. I asked Clement what specifically

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Speaker 1: the neighbors were worried about. To be honest, he said,

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Speaker 1: what they are worried about is they are afraid of revenge.

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Speaker 1: What is the context for the like revenge line? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was basically just they were released like they were

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Speaker 1: terrified that like Asian people were going to show up,

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Speaker 1: like to this community and take revenge for the shooting.

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Speaker 1: Thought they were like attack like the church or something. Well, no,

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Speaker 1: like they thought they were gonna show up to like

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Speaker 1: the family's house and like attack the neighborhood. Ah, when

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Speaker 1: is when? When is that ever happened? Yeah? Yeah, you

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Speaker 1: know and and and you know and you can like

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Speaker 1: what what this demonstrates a is just the kind of

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Speaker 1: community you're dealing with here and be also like you

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Speaker 1: just you have very obvious close connection between the cops

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Speaker 1: and like Long's family at this point. Yeah, and I

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Speaker 1: mean in terms of like the covering up, the covering

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Speaker 1: up of like the anti h violence part of it. Honestly,

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Speaker 1: I don't even know how intentional that would be, because

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Speaker 1: I don't think he even recognizes that as racism. And

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure how much the cops recognize that as

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Speaker 1: a super big part, since that they are already uh,

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Speaker 1: pretty pretty racist. I guess that Asian people, Okay, Like

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Speaker 1: I I don't even know how much they recognize that

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Speaker 1: as being like a thing that isn't normal. Yeah, but

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Speaker 1: but I think also like I don't know the the

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Speaker 1: the explicitness to which particularly Baker is being racist like

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Speaker 1: makes me suspect that he does. That he would have

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Speaker 1: been able to figure it out, because he's like, like

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Speaker 1: you have to go out of your way to like

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Speaker 1: have a shirt that says like COVID imported from China,

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Speaker 1: Like yeah, but I don't think that he would consider

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Speaker 1: that racist, right, Like it's so it's so racist that

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Speaker 1: but but he can't even consider that. He just think

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Speaker 1: it's just like normal, right, Like he's yeah. It's like

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Speaker 1: in terms of like them trying to cover up any

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Speaker 1: kind of anti Asian um stuff leading towards the shooting,

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Speaker 1: they may not see that as like as anything to

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Speaker 1: be covered up because they think that's just normal. So

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Speaker 1: they're not going to like even focus on it because

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Speaker 1: they're like, yeah, I mean obviously right, Like it's just

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Speaker 1: we're so far down the rabbit hole that it's hard

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Speaker 1: to even like recognize it. I don't know, I'm just

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Speaker 1: I'm just I'm just it it makes it makes sensesciousness.

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Speaker 1: And I think also the other thing that's going on

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Speaker 1: here that that's I think the other part of why

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Speaker 1: they wouldn't have recognized it if they didn't, is that like, okay,

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Speaker 1: so like like most people see this and they're you know,

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Speaker 1: they kind of like analytically, they kind of throw up

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Speaker 1: their hands. They're like, wow, this is anti Asian violence.

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Speaker 1: They talk about like the stuff that particular dangerous faced

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Speaker 1: by like Asian women and sex workers, and they sort

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Speaker 1: of call it a day, and the nowsis sort of

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Speaker 1: like stops there, and like they're right, like that this

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Speaker 1: is anti Asian violence. The violence is primarily inflicted on women,

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Speaker 1: and it particularly on sex workers or and I mean

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Speaker 1: this is also very important people who are perceived as

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Speaker 1: sex workers no matter what they actually do. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: like it's got worse than the pandemic. But there's a

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Speaker 1: very very specific kind of violence that long is doing here.

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Speaker 1: It is and it's not it's related to, but not

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Speaker 1: identical to the sort of post COVID stuff. And I

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Speaker 1: think people really like did a disservice to what happened,

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Speaker 1: and did a diservice to help the people understand it

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Speaker 1: by not actually poking at it, because this shooting is

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Speaker 1: at its core and evangelical shooting like this is this

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Speaker 1: is this is evangelical violences, is Christian violence, and this

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Speaker 1: is this is purity culture. And you know, if if

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Speaker 1: you want to understand what actually happens here, you have

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Speaker 1: to actually you have to go back and you have

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Speaker 1: to understand the Christianity angle because it is critical. Now.

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Speaker 1: East Asia's contact with Christianity in the last two hundred

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Speaker 1: years has been broadly speaking, extremely bleak. Uh the conclusion

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Speaker 1: of the First Opium War in eighteen forty two, which

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Speaker 1: Britain forced China to buy opium to cover Britain's trade

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Speaker 1: deficit with the country, and then the Britain also stole

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Speaker 1: Hong Kong and then allowed critics. Yeah, it all also

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Speaker 1: had the effect of allowing Christian missionaries into the country.

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Speaker 1: And it is genuinely unclear which one of those acts

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Speaker 1: has the highest body counts. The product of the Christian

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Speaker 1: missionaries work was the Typing Rebellion, in which the self

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Speaker 1: proclaimed brother of Jesus Christ waged a failed war against

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Speaker 1: the ruling Ching dynasty. That like, even if even if

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Speaker 1: you use like the lower estimates of the body count,

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Speaker 1: that war makes World War One with like a minor

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Speaker 1: border skirmish. It is a just incredibly devastating war. And

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Speaker 1: you know that the product of this is there's there's famines.

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Speaker 1: There's also just a bunch of floods that happened at

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Speaker 1: the same time, and this sends an enormous number of

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Speaker 1: immigrants and refugees fling from their homes looking for any

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Speaker 1: way to survive. And a lot of those people find

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Speaker 1: their way to the US and they get imported by

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Speaker 1: American capitalists, where you know, looking for a new labor

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Speaker 1: force to serve. It's like a racial racial buffer between

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Speaker 1: right black workers after the Civil War. And the other

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Speaker 1: thing is like it's really hard to get to the

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Speaker 1: west coast in the like they know, in the Panama Canal.

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Speaker 1: You have to go over land and it sucks and

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Speaker 1: it's hard, and so they need a labor force that

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Speaker 1: they can just get to the west coast. And it's

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Speaker 1: literally easier for people to come from China, and you know,

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Speaker 1: and so they do, and it is a it is

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Speaker 1: a brutal existence. Chinese workers are worked at death building

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Speaker 1: the railroads, and they you know, they struggled to carve

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Speaker 1: out of life for themselves and they do halting lead

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Speaker 1: and leaps and spurts, but they create communities, they build

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Speaker 1: towns and temples and cultures in the beginning of a

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Speaker 1: new society. And that's when the white working class decides

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Speaker 1: they want to exterminate them because this is this is

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Speaker 1: a great country. Uh yeah. White workers, you know immediately

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Speaker 1: start blaming Chinese workers for the low wages, and they

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Speaker 1: use their workers organizations to ethnically climbs the west. The

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Speaker 1: result of this is a series of massacres that goes

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Speaker 1: on literally for decades, stretching like into the ninth like

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Speaker 1: this this these things starting like the eighteen seventies and

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Speaker 1: they're still going in like the nineteen like like in

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Speaker 1: the in then like the early ninteen hundreds. Um. And

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Speaker 1: and it's at this point where Christianity gets involved. Um.

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Speaker 1: I think like most people who are listening to the

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Speaker 1: show have probably heard at least in passing of the

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Speaker 1: Chinese Exclusion Act just this sort of like the great

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Speaker 1: triumph of like the dark alliance of racists and the

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Speaker 1: white working class. But what I think is less known

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Speaker 1: about is the Page Act, of which banned quote lud

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Speaker 1: and immoral women from entering the United States. And this,

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Speaker 1: this is like this is directly targeted at Asian and

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Speaker 1: Chinese women, um, who were seen as a threat to

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Speaker 1: the sort of racial and moral character of like the

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Speaker 1: white Christian American nation because of like they're supposed to

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Speaker 1: like inheritent immorality demonstrated by the popular usical demonstrated by

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Speaker 1: the popular image of all Chinese women as sex workers.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I think, like looking back on this,

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Speaker 1: this is extremely recognizable that this is literally just an

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Speaker 1: anti trafficking panic, like this whole thing, it's just it's

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Speaker 1: like this this this this is like this is like

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Speaker 1: proto this is like proto q shiit um and you know,

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Speaker 1: and like like there is there is legitimately like sex

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Speaker 1: trafficking going on, but the existence of like like the

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Speaker 1: fact that there is sex trafficking gets used as this

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Speaker 1: sort of like political and racial image. It gets projected

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Speaker 1: onto just like all Asian women who get portrayed as

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Speaker 1: a trafficking victims and you simultaneously be like saved but

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Speaker 1: then also expelled from the US to preserve both there

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Speaker 1: in the U s's purity. And you know, like this

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Speaker 1: image of Asian women has literally never changed. You will

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Speaker 1: find it today like to this day, people find people

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Speaker 1: using like the exact same racist projections like consciously you're

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Speaker 1: unconsciously to talk about Asian immigrants and like particularly SPA workers.

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Speaker 1: It's it's this like it's it's just like incredibly toxic

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Speaker 1: mix of like Christian moralism, sexism, horror phobia, and racism.

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Speaker 1: And the racism element is really important because like, okay,

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Speaker 1: well this is going on, Like prostitution is legal in California,

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Speaker 1: Like you can just do this, like there there's there's

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Speaker 1: no law against it um, you know, and so and

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Speaker 1: so you think that like oh hey, there, you know

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Speaker 1: that the sort of like Christian panic would just be

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Speaker 1: targeted against brothels, like no, it's it's like very specifically

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Speaker 1: against Asian women. And it's you know, this is because

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Speaker 1: all of this sort of like the Christian fears about

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Speaker 1: sex work is you know, and and their horror phobia

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Speaker 1: is and and still is today incredibly deeply fused with

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Speaker 1: this sort of like that this is this is like

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Speaker 1: incredibly racist like concern over the purity of the race yea.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, you know this this will sound familiar to

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Speaker 1: anyone who's been like paying attention at all to any

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Speaker 1: of the trafficking panics and if the anti trans stuff,

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Speaker 1: any of just interracial dating was only extremely recently allowed

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Speaker 1: at all of like the biggest Christian universities, like like

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Speaker 1: they have like they yeah, not a it is it's

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Speaker 1: a it's a thing. It's a yeah, it's and that's

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Speaker 1: and like the thing about it, it's it's really it's

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Speaker 1: it's really close to the surface, right, even even when

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Speaker 1: they're not explicitly just saying it, like if you look,

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Speaker 1: it's been about two seconds looking, it's like, oh, this

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Speaker 1: is what's going on here? Huh yeah? Yeah, And you know,

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Speaker 1: so so that that that's sort of that's sort of

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Speaker 1: one side of this whole thing, right, is you have

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Speaker 1: this sort of like you have this sort of like

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Speaker 1: Christian like anti trafficking panic that that creates that that like,

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Speaker 1: you know, it creates the sort of image of way

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Speaker 1: age women are and has a lot of effects. But

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Speaker 1: the other side of this coin is that there is

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Speaker 1: a just incredible amount of sexual violence that America has

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Speaker 1: inflicted on Asian women, like particularly through its war. Successive

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Speaker 1: invasions of the Philippines, China, Korea, and Vietnam saw American

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Speaker 1: soldiers committing just untold and horrific sexual violence on Asian women,

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Speaker 1: like to to the extent that like the US essentially

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Speaker 1: just inherits Japan's like mass military rape system in Korea

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Speaker 1: and just runs it for itself. Like there's this all

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Speaker 1: of all of those things came home so massively, all

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Speaker 1: the things that were normalized to oversee is just came

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Speaker 1: right back when all the soldiers came back. Yep, yep. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I think it's gonna say next year, like the and

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Speaker 1: this this has a like the I don't know, I

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Speaker 1: think people get the relationship between pop culture depictions and

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Speaker 1: of you know, racist despictions of people in pop culture

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Speaker 1: and the actual culture backwards, like they don't help and

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Speaker 1: they spread it. But like you know, the the like

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Speaker 1: me love you long time ship from like Kubrick like

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Speaker 1: that that doesn't come out of nowhere. That's not just

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Speaker 1: Kubrick like that's that is that's something that was brought

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Speaker 1: home by the American racists and you know, like when

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Speaker 1: when they got back and that stuff. Like it's it's

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Speaker 1: not just that like the stuff is being spread by media.

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Speaker 1: It's that the media is being influenced by the people

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Speaker 1: who did this stuff and then came home. It is

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Speaker 1: the full circle thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I mean

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Speaker 1: even still now there's such a such a degree of

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Speaker 1: like Asian women being like an object to possess, even

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Speaker 1: more so than right, like like it's like even more

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Speaker 1: so than like regular women, which obviously under under like

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Speaker 1: a lot of like patriarchal stuff in the States and

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Speaker 1: you know overseas everywhere, you know, women are seen as

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Speaker 1: objects to possess, but specifically there's that is so much

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Speaker 1: heightened for uh women of color and specifically like Asian women.

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Speaker 1: Um that that idea, I mean you see that everywhere

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Speaker 1: for the libertarian Asian girlfriend. You like you see this

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Speaker 1: in media all the time. Um that like the Asian

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Speaker 1: wife is something you own, and it's it's a very

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Speaker 1: extremely pervasive Yeah, And I think the reason why is that,

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Speaker 1: like this image gets refreshed every time of generation comes

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Speaker 1: from from a war in Asia. And you know that

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Speaker 1: that's what because because the US has been fighting wars

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Speaker 1: in Asia like forever, I mean basically since like it

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Speaker 1: we've been fighting wars and Asians late Asian hundreds, and

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Speaker 1: you know, like the violence of each subject generation just

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Speaker 1: sort of refreshes this image of like Asian women as

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Speaker 1: prostitutes bodies are supposed to just be like accessible to

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Speaker 1: white men at all times. But this has a sort

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Speaker 1: of there's a kind of clash that happens here too,

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Speaker 1: because like on the one hand you have this sort

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Speaker 1: of like racial and sexual feticization, and on the other

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Speaker 1: hand you of Christian horror phobia. And this gives you

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Speaker 1: this culture where like Asian women are at once seen

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Speaker 1: as like hyperdesirable and hyper available, but are also just

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Speaker 1: like utterly despised for both and this sort of like

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Speaker 1: racist pathology, this like this like this like this this

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Speaker 1: sexual desire bixed with loathing. He's at just the absolute

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Speaker 1: core of of the Atlantic shooting, and as if to

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Speaker 1: remind us if its origin, Long carries out as massacre

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Speaker 1: on the fifty three anniversary of my lie and we're bad.

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Speaker 1: So I think we now have enough context to like

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Speaker 1: go back to Long's initial description of why he carries

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Speaker 1: out the attack, which to self describe sex addiction. Is

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Speaker 1: desired to quote eliminate temptation. Yeah, Because I mean we

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Speaker 1: cannot overstate the degree to which both the police, the church,

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Speaker 1: and the shooter himself framed this not as an anti

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Speaker 1: astion thing, but as like as a as a as

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Speaker 1: something addressing his sex addiction. Um, that was the angle

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Speaker 1: it talked about it. Now, there's all of the anti

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Speaker 1: ation stuff that is like right under the surface, but

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Speaker 1: it's like probably up so much of what's going on.

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Speaker 1: But the thing that they were publicly talking about was

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Speaker 1: this uh so called sex addiction. Yeah. And and I

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Speaker 1: think this is this is you know, this is this

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Speaker 1: is a very important angle of this is we should

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Speaker 1: actually talk about what that is and because and to

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Speaker 1: understand because he just not like okay, so like the

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Speaker 1: sex edition is I think like actually sort of a thing,

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Speaker 1: but people that is a hotly debated Yeah. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I'm not a psychiatrist. Don't take advice to me. I

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Speaker 1: think it's the slightly more legit of the two. Things

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Speaker 1: that the of the two like fake syndrome things we're

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Speaker 1: gonna talk about here, but this is not what's going

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Speaker 1: on with him, and you want to understand it. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: what's going on with this? We need to go back

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Speaker 1: to enemy of the show, purity culture. Um friend friend

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Speaker 1: of a friend of the pod. Yeah, I'm gonna say no.

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Speaker 1: I I refused, I had I had friends, and there

397
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Speaker 1: are a couple of times and I was like, I

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Speaker 1: refused to call this friend of the show. Damn it.

399
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Speaker 1: Like I can't do myself to do it right. Joshua

400
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Speaker 1: Harris just unsubscribed so long, like by all accounts, is

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Speaker 1: extremely religious. He's heavily involved both his church and his

402
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Speaker 1: high school. Like his high school he's a public high school.

403
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Speaker 1: But the public high school has like Christian athletic groups,

404
00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:20,879
Speaker 1: which is a fun thing that they let you do

405
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:25,879
Speaker 1: in public schools. Um, yeah, it's great. H So you know,

406
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:28,119
Speaker 1: to get it, to get it an understanding of like

407
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:30,359
Speaker 1: the kind of baptism we're dealing with here. Here's a

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Speaker 1: line from the church's by laws. Quote. We believe that

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Speaker 1: any form of sexual immorality, such as adultery, fornication, homosexuality,

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Speaker 1: bisexual conduct, bestiality, incest, polygamy, pedophilia, pornography, or any attempt

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Speaker 1: to change one's sex or disagreement with one's biological sex,

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Speaker 1: is sinful and offensive to God. Yep, you know, and

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Speaker 1: all of that's in the Bible. Yeah, they have you

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Speaker 1: you can tell because they cite three passages. Not if

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Speaker 1: we say that, Well, okay, I know there is there

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Speaker 1: is beast reality stuff. Bit is I think that the

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Speaker 1: incess is in there. Well, I mean there's doing this stuff.

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Speaker 1: But parts of the Bible are pro incests. Parts the

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Speaker 1: Bible are Antians. Yeah, it's um. The Bible has a

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Speaker 1: real sticky relationship with the topic of incest um. But yes,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure they thoroughly slight all of their passages for

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Speaker 1: they talk about when they talk about bisexual conduct. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's well, I mean, you know, the one that's great

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Speaker 1: is the attempting to change one's sex or disagreement with

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Speaker 1: one's biological sex. A thing that I I'm guessing they're

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Speaker 1: citing God created males and females, and males and females,

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Speaker 1: He created them. And I don't actually think so because

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Speaker 1: they're not they didn't. Okay, yeah, this this is me.

429
00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:55,320
Speaker 1: I'm just I'm just speculating based on experience in these

430
00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:59,240
Speaker 1: in these types of types of groups. Yeah. So so

431
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:02,440
Speaker 1: speaking of these types of groups, so Long is like, Okay,

432
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:09,960
Speaker 1: so Long's church like expels him after the the shooting murder. Yeah, because,

433
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:14,160
Speaker 1: like I'm they violated their own by laws because there's

434
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:16,920
Speaker 1: no way they could have done their expulsion their actual

435
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:18,880
Speaker 1: explosion protocol and that amount of time, because they would

436
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:22,000
Speaker 1: have acted like send people to visit him in jail. See,

437
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 1: I think you're overestimating the degree to which churches care

438
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:27,600
Speaker 1: about what their by laws actually say. Well, I mean

439
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,240
Speaker 1: it's the blanking on it. What's the thing Matt Matt eighteen.

440
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 1: There's like the thing that churches have that's like their

441
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:37,159
Speaker 1: explosion protocol and they like send someone to this this

442
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:39,680
Speaker 1: is the thing into I think you're I think you're

443
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:43,160
Speaker 1: slightly overestimating how much people actually care about that, which

444
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 1: it's all just a racket used to prop up the

445
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:49,160
Speaker 1: authority of the leaders and push people towards whatever political

446
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:52,440
Speaker 1: gains that the movement has. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, speaking

447
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:54,920
Speaker 1: of getting people to submit to the authority and polluting

448
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:57,680
Speaker 1: instant movements. Yeah, So we talked about purity culture on

449
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 1: this show, like we had dausium um. So we're not

450
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,080
Speaker 1: gonna go into an enormous amount of detail about it here.

451
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:08,399
Speaker 1: The very should at least describe what it is. So

452
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 1: the very very very short version is, it's like it's

453
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 1: an incredibly patriarchal, like evangelical Christian religious system in which

454
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 1: like sex before marriage is seen as like an incredible sin,

455
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 1: and there's just like like focused on the purity of

456
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:24,399
Speaker 1: the wife and like like a woman is essentially the

457
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 1: property of her husband, and the entire goal of existence

458
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 1: just to like bare and raised children. So it was

459
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 1: it was invented, but it was the modern version that

460
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,680
Speaker 1: was invented in the nineties, strongly influenced by a book

461
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 1: written by someone named Joshua Harris. It was called I

462
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,639
Speaker 1: Kissed a Dating Goodbye. The book promotes a pro courtship

463
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,720
Speaker 1: to marriage pipeline instead of dating. I think dating will

464
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,159
Speaker 1: probably encourage you to have sex before marriage, which is

465
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,920
Speaker 1: of course bad um. And under under all of this

466
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:54,320
Speaker 1: under like the actual like you know, if you if

467
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:56,399
Speaker 1: you if you started digging into this all the stuff

468
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,120
Speaker 1: it talks about in terms of like sexual purity um

469
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:03,439
Speaker 1: is a about you know, women are responsible for men's

470
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:07,880
Speaker 1: sexual like um sins right, Like if if a man

471
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,399
Speaker 1: lusts for a woman, that's the woman's fault, not the

472
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:12,920
Speaker 1: man's fault. Right. It's because women must be presenting in

473
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 1: a way that causes that to happen. Um. Right, So

474
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 1: women's women's bodies and clothes should be designed in a

475
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,720
Speaker 1: way so that it will not cause men to stumble um.

476
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 1: And by stumble they mean get horny um. And you

477
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 1: know it's something that you know, your your body is

478
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:30,920
Speaker 1: both this thing that should be pure, but also you

479
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:34,199
Speaker 1: should be ashamed of it, right because it causes the sin. Uh.

480
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 1: Women can't really have any sexual desire on their own.

481
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,600
Speaker 1: Women are going to really enjoy sex. Um. It's it's

482
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:43,720
Speaker 1: specifically for men, and it's for procreation. Um. It's in

483
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 1: in in intense value tied to your idea of like

484
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 1: virginity and virginity extending out to like personal purity and

485
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 1: spiritual purity, Like if you have sex before marriage, you

486
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,840
Speaker 1: are like like unclean. It's it's like it's like your

487
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 1: it's like you're chewed up gum, Like you like you

488
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 1: would not pick up someone's Like if you found some

489
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 1: chewed up gum on the street, you wouldn't put it

490
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 1: back in your mouth. Right, So that's the idea, Like

491
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 1: if you if you're not a virgin, you are you

492
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:12,919
Speaker 1: were like chewed up gum, Like you are already used,

493
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 1: you're spent um. So you have so you save safer

494
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 1: marriage so that only your husband can chew up your gum,

495
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:22,639
Speaker 1: and then after your marriage you're just stuck there forever. Right.

496
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:26,680
Speaker 1: It's also like very very very anti divorce um. And

497
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 1: there's really no difference, Like there's they don't really there's

498
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 1: not much discussion around consent. Oddly enough, you know as

499
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 1: you know that they surprise you based on what I

500
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 1: all just said, like obviously they don't care about consent. Um.

501
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,399
Speaker 1: There's like they they view any they view a sexual

502
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,479
Speaker 1: assault just as bad as consensual sex before marriage. They

503
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,920
Speaker 1: see them as the same thing. Um. It's it's basically this,

504
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 1: it's the same structure as that they're both in equal

505
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 1: sin ah And I mean that is that is purity

506
00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 1: culture one oh one. We could we could just do

507
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 1: an entire episode on pure any culture, and we probably

508
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,160
Speaker 1: would do. We can do series on it, like yeah,

509
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 1: like yeah, yeah, I think the really important thing about

510
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,960
Speaker 1: it is like this is basically like in terms of

511
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,680
Speaker 1: they're sort of being like like I don't know what

512
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 1: if you call it a counterculture, but they're sort of

513
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:19,639
Speaker 1: being like an evangelical cultural machine, like it's this like

514
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:21,439
Speaker 1: this is this is what they're pushing as like as

515
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,000
Speaker 1: like their mass movement for for youth expect especially in

516
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 1: the nineties and two thousand's, we have we have stuff

517
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 1: like purity rings, which is like you know, when you

518
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 1: when you're a teen, you'll get like objects or jewelry

519
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 1: which are like like almost like magical items do you

520
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 1: put on to like show that I am going to

521
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 1: keep myself pure and by doing this, by doing this action,

522
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 1: it's symbolizing that and therefore internalizing it. There's also um

523
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 1: purity balls, which is not what you'll so when would

524
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 1: use the word purity ball, certain things will come to mind, right, Um,

525
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 1: Unfortunately they're not as fun as what that's what you

526
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 1: are thinking. Um, A purity ball is just like a

527
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 1: formal dance event, you know, like a ball that you

528
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 1: put on um, which is meant to it's a it's

529
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 1: a meant to. Usually it's like fathers take their daughters

530
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 1: there and then their daughters swear to make a virginity

531
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 1: pledge um to protect their purity of mind, body, and

532
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 1: spirit um so that they will not then infect you know, boys,

533
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 1: uh and cause them to stumble and and commit the

534
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,239
Speaker 1: sin of lust, which again is an incredibly weird thing

535
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 1: to do at a ball, Like, yes, it's so weird.

536
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 1: Well also, yeah, it's most most Yeah, it's well, I

537
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 1: think I think we've got into enough event. Yeah, but

538
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 1: the specific sort of thing, I think the last thing

539
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 1: I will look at. There, there is one more thing

540
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 1: we're gonna so before that, I do want to point

541
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 1: out that Joshua Harris, who like is in a lot

542
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 1: of ways responsible, like single handedly responsible for an enormous

543
00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 1: amount of this, she is Japanese. Yeah, fucking thanks for

544
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 1: that one, buddy, Great job, good ship man. In ten,

545
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 1: he announced that he and his wife were divorcing. Yeah,

546
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 1: so you know, and and and now and now no

547
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 1: longer considers himself like the type of Christian he was

548
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 1: before I'm unclear what his actual spiritual beliefs at the moment,

549
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 1: but he did he did try to distance himself from

550
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 1: his from from what I've read, like it's unclear that

551
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 1: he knows. So oh, he he knows. He definitely knows.

552
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 1: I can, I can, I can. I can guarantee that

553
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 1: he's he used to be running. He has a new

554
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 1: grift now. It sucks they always get new grips. But

555
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 1: actually we will, yeah, we will get into the new

556
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 1: grift industry in a second. Um. But Yeah, one of

557
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 1: the other things that's that's a big part of this

558
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 1: is like a deep and abiding hatred of porn. Like

559
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 1: all of this is yeah, like as you said, like

560
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 1: in the list of by laws watching porn again, it's

561
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 1: the same as sexual assaults. Yeah, it's a huge it's

562
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 1: morally the same level of sin. Yeah. And and like

563
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, and and you can read that

564
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 1: both ways as how seriously they take watching porn and

565
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:13,959
Speaker 1: how not seriously it takes sexual assault because it does

566
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 1: go it does go both ways. Yeah. Um. And this

567
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 1: this thing, the fact that that this is this is

568
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 1: like considered a sin, is the apotheosis, Like the apotheosis

569
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 1: that this is is porn addiction, which again like not

570
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 1: really dubious existence. This is this is even more dubious

571
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 1: sex than sex addiction, Like there's no there, this is

572
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 1: this is like this is just fake. Um. But there's

573
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 1: an entire culture that's that's a like developed around stopping

574
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 1: manifest seeing poor and these like there's like these incredibly

575
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:46,360
Speaker 1: elaborate accountability setups where like there's like apps you install

576
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 1: on your stuff, Like there's ways to alter your IP

577
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 1: addressed to watch certain sites. Yeah, Robert Aaron Long the shooter,

578
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,280
Speaker 1: like he he uses a flip phone instead of a

579
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 1: smart phone because he thinks having a phone will like

580
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 1: lead int senation. Um. Now Long. Yeah. And the product

581
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 1: of this is that there's like there's like this entire

582
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 1: industry that is built up around quote unquote treating the

583
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 1: porn addiction. Yeah. Um, and it's it's all bullshit. But

584
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 1: Long had spent at twice been in one of these

585
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 1: facilities called hope Quest. Now, hope Quest is an affiliateive

586
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:23,719
Speaker 1: for old friends that focus in the family. But that's

587
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 1: not actually the part I want to talk about, because

588
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 1: what's more interesting about hope Quest is that it's founded

589
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 1: by roy A Blankenship, a former ex gay who left

590
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 1: both hope quests and the X gay community to live

591
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 1: with his husband. Now, now this what a what a

592
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 1: what what what a what a funny pattern we keep

593
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:42,480
Speaker 1: finding out? Yeah? No, now I think I think my

594
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 1: two listeners, if you were, if you were not as

595
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 1: cursed as as as we are as we are, and

596
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 1: you don't know what an ex gay is, um X

597
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 1: gays were there were this movement of like evangelical gaze

598
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 1: who claimed that like this this is the thing that

599
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 1: starts in like the nineties and twos. They claimed that

600
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 1: like they've gone to conversion therapy and it made them

601
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:04,040
Speaker 1: not gat yeah yeah, and and this and you know,

602
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 1: and in partial part of partial was going on here

603
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:07,959
Speaker 1: is they claimed that that like they did it voluntarily

604
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 1: because like involuntarily doing conversion therapy had gotten to a

605
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 1: point where it was like bad pr wise, because Jesus Christ,

606
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 1: you were like torturing children and they're still torturing children,

607
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 1: but but this time they're like, no, it's voluntary, and

608
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 1: that this is like they're big, this is the rights,

609
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 1: big cultural campaign against the gay right through nineties in

610
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 1: two thousands and uh, like I I would say this

611
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 1: like it's it's not exactly the same thing as the

612
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 1: way they use detansitioners, but like there's a lot of

613
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,800
Speaker 1: it's very similar. And of course obviously that we now

614
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 1: have the x X gay movement. Yeah yeah, and and

615
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 1: you know and and and to to like so okay,

616
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 1: So like the X game movement falls apart in like

617
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 1: the late two thousands and early doesn't tends because like

618
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 1: it doesn't work. The leaders personal all the leaders were

619
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 1: initially gay, said they were X gay and then kept

620
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 1: having gay sex because that rules. Yeah, and they all

621
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 1: kind of realized maybe we should stop doing this thing

622
00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 1: that keeps killing kids. Yeah, And Blaken Blankenship too is

623
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 1: credit like he'd been a big person doing this and

624
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 1: then he was just like like one of his friends

625
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,480
Speaker 1: like commit suicide and he's like, oh shit, and so

626
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 1: like he stops, like he's announced this in version therapy

627
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:13,200
Speaker 1: and he's now appropriar so many of the focus on

628
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:15,879
Speaker 1: the family. People who were involved in like Love One

629
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:19,319
Speaker 1: out all of these escape programs. So many of them

630
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:23,959
Speaker 1: then renounced it, accepted their their gayness, and then moved

631
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 1: to Portland's fucking Oregon. So many of them didn't this though,

632
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:31,960
Speaker 1: like this this is what's interesting about this. So okay, So,

633
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:34,840
Speaker 1: so while he was sort of figuring this out, Blancolin

634
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 1: ship had a founded hope quest, right, and so he

635
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 1: leaves with the people who are running it now, like

636
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 1: our X gays who they're like the only X gays

637
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 1: left who didn't renounce it and who like still claimed

638
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 1: to be ex I mean, they they've taken their stuff

639
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:53,279
Speaker 1: about how like homosexuality should be like dealt with by

640
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:57,840
Speaker 1: saying by having by marrying women and just not acting

641
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 1: on it or whatever. Like they they took that stulf

642
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 1: out of their bios, but they apparently they still believe it,

643
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 1: like like they've they these people have never probably come

644
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 1: out against it. And you know what essentially happened was

645
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 1: that like enough of enough of the X gays, like

646
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:13,440
Speaker 1: but the thing collapsed enough that like they had to

647
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:14,800
Speaker 1: find and they had to find a new thing to do.

648
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:16,719
Speaker 1: And the new thing they found to do was they

649
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:20,279
Speaker 1: went and they went into the porn addiction treatment industry. Yeah,

650
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 1: and we also if if if you want more background

651
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 1: like the X gay thing, you can listen to my

652
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:27,800
Speaker 1: my two part are on focus on the family and

653
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,919
Speaker 1: James Dobson for Behind the Bastards. Also for our week

654
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,120
Speaker 1: on the War on Transpeople, we discussed some of the

655
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:37,279
Speaker 1: same stuff for the first episode, which is the evangelical

656
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 1: gay marriage, um like thing that. So yeah, we we

657
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:44,879
Speaker 1: we have we we we do, we do have something

658
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:47,359
Speaker 1: like produced scripted stuff on these topics if you want

659
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:49,759
Speaker 1: more background on them. Yeah. Unfortunately, this is a this

660
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,920
Speaker 1: is a story where there's like every single thread you've

661
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 1: ever done suddenly is coming together in one moment of

662
00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:59,800
Speaker 1: horrific violence. This is where long like winds up for

663
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,719
Speaker 1: is like treatments for like poor and sex addiction addictions,

664
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 1: which I kindot emphasize enough. This is literally what he's

665
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,920
Speaker 1: talking about is literally that he watches porn like like

666
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 1: that that's what porn sex addiction like means. And because

667
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 1: none of this is real, the treatments like don't work

668
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:18,359
Speaker 1: because again it's all fake. And I do would also say,

669
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 1: hope quest Is operates out of Georgia. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah,

670
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 1: but you know so so so. So he goes into

671
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:31,720
Speaker 1: treatment twice and he's he's he says it like Maverick,

672
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 1: which is this like recovery center. Um, it doesn't work,

673
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:37,480
Speaker 1: and he goes home and his parents kick him out

674
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 1: of his house for watching porn. And you know, I

675
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:45,320
Speaker 1: think this is something that like is important to understand,

676
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 1: which is that the people inside of this world really

677
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:51,760
Speaker 1: deeply believe this stuff, right and and like watching porn

678
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 1: has real social consequences for them, and it has you know,

679
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:58,800
Speaker 1: and this, this has, this has has has like a

680
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 1: profound fact on how these people think. I'm going to

681
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:05,399
Speaker 1: read a quote from a Washington Post article. Bayless, who

682
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 1: was Long's roommate at Maverick Recovery, a sober living facility

683
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 1: in Roswell, Georgia, in two thousand nineteen and two twenty

684
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:13,759
Speaker 1: and the months between his stay at Hope stays at

685
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:17,319
Speaker 1: Hope Quest, said Long felt his very salvation was at

686
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,240
Speaker 1: stake as he told his roommate that he was quote

687
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 1: living in sin and not walking in the light. He

688
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 1: was walking in darkness. So this this is how these

689
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 1: people like see this stuff right, like like this is

690
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 1: this is literally about whether you're you're like yeah, they're

691
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 1: talking about like something extremely existential like it like it

692
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 1: is this all seems very silly to people who are

693
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 1: not inside it, because it is it is. It is absurd.

694
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,239
Speaker 1: But if the people involved in it it is like

695
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 1: the totality of the universe, like it is, it is

696
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 1: so big, it's like the biggest thing. It's so important

697
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 1: because you're you're determining what you're, what you will, what's

698
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:03,320
Speaker 1: your conscious being will exist for for thousands and thousands

699
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:05,280
Speaker 1: of years like that, Like this is what they actually believe.

700
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 1: So it's super important, like it's it is it is

701
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 1: worth killing before because it's that's that's how important this is.

702
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:14,719
Speaker 1: Like like I think, I think there's no sense to

703
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 1: which it is more important than life or death because

704
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:19,759
Speaker 1: you dying, Like okay, you die, once you go to

705
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:24,840
Speaker 1: your physical death doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Yeah, and

706
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:27,759
Speaker 1: and this, you know, and you know, we talked about this,

707
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 1: like it's there. There's those things. There's there's a social consequences.

708
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:31,239
Speaker 1: You can get kicked out of your house, you can

709
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:33,400
Speaker 1: kick out of your church if you keep doing this,

710
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:37,400
Speaker 1: like like these churches will kick you out. Um, and

711
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 1: and this, you know, this makes the ideology at work

712
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:43,880
Speaker 1: here incredibly powerful. And it provides a mixture of this

713
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:47,760
Speaker 1: like this this really incredible self hatred for like falling

714
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 1: into sin and giving him too temptation. And it also

715
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 1: creates a hatred of the temptation itself. And this brings

716
00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:56,960
Speaker 1: us all the way up to the shooting. UM purity culture.

717
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 1: Purity culture is the key that unlocks, you know, the

718
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:03,360
Speaker 1: meeting of Long's words. We can understand the explanation that

719
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 1: the police gave, which again like he apparently has an

720
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:09,880
Speaker 1: issue what he considers a sex addiction and sees these

721
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 1: locations as something that allows him to go to these places,

722
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:14,400
Speaker 1: and it's a temptation for him that he wanted to eliminate,

723
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 1: you know. And there was a at the memorial for

724
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:23,360
Speaker 1: for the shooting last year, UM Sex Work or organizer

725
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:27,719
Speaker 1: kail and Jong said this, they hate us so they

726
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 1: can hate themselves less. And I think that's that's a

727
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 1: really great that is a really good analysis. Yes, yeah,

728
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:38,880
Speaker 1: it's a perfect calculation of like what's happening here. But

729
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:41,800
Speaker 1: this is the part of the story with the media

730
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:49,400
Speaker 1: just violently and spectacularly fox up to endaupt. They they

731
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,319
Speaker 1: dropped the purity ball. You might say, yeah, I mean

732
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 1: it's it's it's really horrible there, Like what they've essentially

733
00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:58,839
Speaker 1: done is an act two years of racist violence against

734
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:01,400
Speaker 1: people who had either literally just survived a mass shooting,

735
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,840
Speaker 1: or who are literally dead. And the way they do this,

736
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:08,239
Speaker 1: the press reads long talking about sex edition addiction, and

737
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:10,440
Speaker 1: they immediately assumed that the women in these massage parlors

738
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 1: have been having sex with him, and they start, there's

739
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:15,000
Speaker 1: like this whole hunt that they do to like search

740
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:17,479
Speaker 1: for evidence that massage workers were doing like full service

741
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:19,719
Speaker 1: sex work, based off of again the words of a

742
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 1: literal racist mass murderer and their own racist preconception that

743
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 1: like all Asian women, especially SPA workers, are also sex workers. Yep.

744
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 1: And like you know, on the one hand, yeah, it's

745
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 1: true that this stuff is fueled by horr phobia and

746
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 1: also like morally, who gives a ship what they were doing.

747
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 1: But the immediate problem here is that by doing this

748
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:40,040
Speaker 1: witch hunt, you were sicking the police on the survivors

749
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:43,560
Speaker 1: you're putting you're putting a survivors in immense legal and

750
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 1: physical danger. Yeah, and and we we will talk about

751
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:50,560
Speaker 1: this more next episode. But like, these women have already

752
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 1: seen more police violence and police raids than all of

753
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 1: the journalists writing about this combined I've seen in their

754
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 1: entire lives. And if any of these people had bothered

755
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 1: to spend five sec thinking about what purity culture is

756
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:05,759
Speaker 1: they would have realized it. Long is from a fanatically

757
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:09,800
Speaker 1: puritanical culture, a culture where, for example, in massage given

758
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:14,120
Speaker 1: by a woman where the man is like almost entirely naked,

759
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:17,440
Speaker 1: uh is something that would absolutely have been considered a

760
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 1: sexual service. And like you know, and and if you

761
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 1: think about this again for like five seconds, right when

762
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:31,839
Speaker 1: he's talking about removing temptation, he already thinks of all

763
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 1: of these women as sex workers, because that's that's what

764
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:37,400
Speaker 1: he thinks the massage is. He thinks like that that

765
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:40,839
Speaker 1: that that's that's how he thinks about massages. It's yeah,

766
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:44,960
Speaker 1: it is it women are the like women do this

767
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 1: then they cause men to sin, right, it's not it's

768
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 1: nothing to do with what's going on with the man.

769
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 1: It is specifically what the woman is doing. Yeah. Well,

770
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 1: and and and even then like it doesn't actually like

771
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:56,880
Speaker 1: I think I think that the important distinction here is

772
00:41:56,920 --> 00:42:00,920
Speaker 1: that it does not matter when Long talks about how

773
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:03,200
Speaker 1: this is a place that was giving intemptation and also

774
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:05,480
Speaker 1: like like he was giving intemptation and he was like

775
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:08,600
Speaker 1: he was going there for his sex edition. Like it

776
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 1: doesn't actually matter to him whether or not any of

777
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 1: these women have ever like exchange money set at all.

778
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 1: It doesn't, It doesn't, it doesn't need to be, yeah,

779
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:22,759
Speaker 1: because these people are fucking like it just engulfed in

780
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:27,760
Speaker 1: Like it's so totally engulfed in this incredibly like violence

781
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:30,800
Speaker 1: and racist and misogynists be homophobic ideology that it just

782
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 1: sort of you know, like that that's just how they think.

783
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 1: And I think that this is where we're going to

784
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:40,799
Speaker 1: return one final time this episode to race, because there's

785
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 1: a mistake that people make thinking about this analytically that

786
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:46,560
Speaker 1: prevents him from understanding both what's happening in Atlanta and

787
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:50,040
Speaker 1: how sort of capitalist and racist violence happens everywhere. Which

788
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:53,799
Speaker 1: is that like, okay, so right when this happened, um,

789
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:56,960
Speaker 1: like when when when the press conference dropped, you got

790
00:42:57,040 --> 00:42:58,400
Speaker 1: all that there are a lot of people like I

791
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:00,320
Speaker 1: think Glenn Greenwald did this like a leaf sing like

792
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:02,279
Speaker 1: there's a whole crew of people who were like this

793
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 1: isn't about Asian racism, but all this is about him

794
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:11,480
Speaker 1: like hating sex workers, and okay, it is true that

795
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:13,960
Speaker 1: human labor has been transformed into a commodity that can

796
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 1: be bought and sold at will. Now on on a

797
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:22,439
Speaker 1: on a more theoretical level. Right, you will see sort

798
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:25,080
Speaker 1: of incredibly theory brain people who will talk about how

799
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:28,680
Speaker 1: you know in in March's Critique of Political Economy, right,

800
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 1: all labor is astracting, interchangeable, each each unit of labor

801
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 1: time is equivalent, identical, and exchangeable. But here in the

802
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 1: massage parlor, this is a deadly simplification this labor. That

803
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:41,400
Speaker 1: the labor that is going on here is Asian. It

804
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 1: is indelibly stamped with race and ethnicity and nationality and

805
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:49,600
Speaker 1: hundreds of years of violence and perception. Um Rumors Paca,

806
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:52,440
Speaker 1: a assistant professor at the Institute of Women's Studies at

807
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,080
Speaker 1: the University of Georgia, roode a piece last year called

808
00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 1: white supremacy in the Wellness Industry, or why it matters

809
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 1: that that this happened at a spot ah Um, And

810
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 1: I'm going to read a passage on it because it's

811
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 1: very good. Massage spas, also called salons or parlors, like

812
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:10,840
Speaker 1: the one where these crimes took place, are part of

813
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:13,959
Speaker 1: a broader industrial complex that capitalizes on the racist belief

814
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 1: that Asian people and Asian woman in particular, possess magical, spiritual,

815
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:22,880
Speaker 1: and sexual healing abilities. These attitudes belong to an entrenched

816
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:26,640
Speaker 1: Orientalist infrastructure in the United States that connects yoga and

817
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 1: meditation and massage to tourism, pleasure, and escape, signaled by

818
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:33,239
Speaker 1: the exotic tropical flower and the photo above, if there's

819
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:38,520
Speaker 1: a photo of flower at a parlor. Yeah, you know.

820
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:42,759
Speaker 1: And and this this labor, the labor of of of

821
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:47,800
Speaker 1: the massage that is happening here is it depends almost

822
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 1: entirely on a very specific performance of a specific kind

823
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:53,920
Speaker 1: of Asian femininity. And you know, when this sort of

824
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:56,680
Speaker 1: gender and racialized violence. But when when this gender and

825
00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 1: racialized labor comes into contact with Long and all of

826
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 1: this historical forces that he's bearing, he murders the workers.

827
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:12,840
Speaker 1: And yeah, I think, yeah, this is the part of

828
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 1: the story of the Atlanta shooting that I think if

829
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 1: people know about Atlanta shooting at all, like, this is

830
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:21,120
Speaker 1: the part they know about, right, they know the story

831
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:24,560
Speaker 1: of Robert Darren Long. But there are other stories here,

832
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 1: stories that aren't stories that in large parts are just

833
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:30,880
Speaker 1: not about the US at all. Um. There are the

834
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 1: stories of the victims, the survivors, and the absolute hell

835
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 1: that brought them into the massage parlor in the first place.

836
00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 1: On the horrific night, and those are the stories that

837
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:44,440
Speaker 1: we're going to tell him part two. Yeah, well that

838
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 1: doesn't for us today. I do want to say, I know, uh,

839
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:51,279
Speaker 1: I know Christmas planning these for the annivers three of

840
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 1: the shooting, but they proved to be quite the daunting

841
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:58,759
Speaker 1: task to put together. I had to get had to

842
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:01,520
Speaker 1: get pushed back for a while. So but but big

843
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:05,759
Speaker 1: thanks to you for doing the work too. Read through

844
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:09,239
Speaker 1: all of the horrible things and if like the other

845
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 1: thing I said about this, like if you if you

846
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:13,400
Speaker 1: think this is bad, wait till part two, which is

847
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:18,840
Speaker 1: even more wide spanning, and it has horrific and disturbing

848
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:22,160
Speaker 1: violence in a way that will I don't know, reduced

849
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:25,960
Speaker 1: media tears multiple times. And yeah, we'll leave you an

850
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:29,880
Speaker 1: existential dread of the condition of this world. Yeah, and

851
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 1: I guess again there there is there, There is ways

852
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 1: to combat it, right, because all of these a lot

853
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 1: a lot of these things, all right, you know, problems

854
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:40,920
Speaker 1: with like viewpoint and ideas in terms of how we

855
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:45,319
Speaker 1: view sex, how we view women, how we view race, um.

856
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:47,640
Speaker 1: And there are things that when you see you can

857
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:52,719
Speaker 1: interrogate in people, um, especially if you're especially if you're

858
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:55,239
Speaker 1: a Christian, if you're if you're going to church, these

859
00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 1: there are things to watch out for and you can

860
00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:01,919
Speaker 1: push back on because and doing so can maybe save

861
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:05,919
Speaker 1: people's lives, because these ideas have a death count. Yeah,

862
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:10,239
Speaker 1: and I think I think there's another part of this too,

863
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:12,880
Speaker 1: which is that you know, I mean, the reason we

864
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:15,000
Speaker 1: talk about purity culture stuff so much, the reason we

865
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:17,920
Speaker 1: talk about the mobilizations of the evangelical rights so much,

866
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:21,840
Speaker 1: is that they keep producing these movements that you know,

867
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 1: that that put that put our lives in danger. And

868
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:28,440
Speaker 1: the only way that we can stop this, and this

869
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:30,920
Speaker 1: is a thing that we can do, is you have

870
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:33,880
Speaker 1: to actually destroy their movement, right, you have you have

871
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:35,840
Speaker 1: to you have to actually break their power. You have

872
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:39,360
Speaker 1: to you know, you have to find various ways to

873
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:42,239
Speaker 1: break the power, break the power of these churches, and

874
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 1: you have to find ways to break the power of

875
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:46,560
Speaker 1: their political movements. And that is not an easy task.

876
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 1: But if if we want to live in a world well,

877
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:52,400
Speaker 1: I mean, just quite blank, if if we want to

878
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 1: live in a world and not in you know, like

879
00:47:55,800 --> 00:48:01,800
Speaker 1: four degrees fahrenheit, like unlivable death escape, like, we have

880
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:04,960
Speaker 1: to deal with these people because they are the source

881
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:08,120
Speaker 1: of almost every right wing movement that that we're facing,

882
00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:13,200
Speaker 1: and they have to be crushed before they do this again. Yeah,

883
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 1: and they're they're going to try. I mean there's yeah,

884
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:20,520
Speaker 1: because the biggest thing would would say is like reaching

885
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 1: out to people who you know are in us or

886
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 1: if you if you go to church. I think it's

887
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:29,399
Speaker 1: your duty as a Christian to push back on these

888
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:33,959
Speaker 1: things because I'm not gonna bash anyone specifically for whatever

889
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:36,920
Speaker 1: religion they have. I understand why people have this. I

890
00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:40,400
Speaker 1: I can see how they work. Um. You know, I

891
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:44,879
Speaker 1: was raised in something very similar. Um. But you can

892
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:48,280
Speaker 1: you can still push back on the type of rhetoric

893
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:50,600
Speaker 1: that leads to these things in the type of like

894
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:56,160
Speaker 1: like objectification and racism that necessitates violence and gets people

895
00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 1: to be okay with violence, um, and pushing back against

896
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:02,840
Speaker 1: like a Christian apocalypse to worldviews and like the idea

897
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:08,400
Speaker 1: your your actions will determine your you know how, the

898
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:11,000
Speaker 1: spiritual quality of your soul and where it's going to

899
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:13,880
Speaker 1: reside for all of eternity. Right, All these things are

900
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:18,120
Speaker 1: our ideas that are pretty pretty like innately dangerous. Um.

901
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:23,560
Speaker 1: And there's ways to do religion that don't have that. Yeah,

902
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:30,520
Speaker 1: but I think I think that is a good enough

903
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:33,920
Speaker 1: place till even for today, because I know part two

904
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:44,080
Speaker 1: we're gonna have some more more fire. Why why widespread problems? Yeah, alright,

905
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:46,160
Speaker 1: well this has been make it happen here. You can

906
00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:50,160
Speaker 1: find us in the social media places that happened here pods.

907
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:54,800
Speaker 1: You can also flee into the woods. Flee into the woods.

908
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:57,600
Speaker 1: But but but before you flee into the woods, subscribe

909
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:01,239
Speaker 1: to the pod and leave a five star review. Bye

910
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:23,120
Speaker 1: bye bye everybody. I see you tomorrow. Yep, it's it

911
00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 1: could happen here a podcast about things falling apart and

912
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:33,920
Speaker 1: some other stuff occasionally. I'm Robert Evans. Welcome to the

913
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:39,880
Speaker 1: show today, our guests fresh off their new hit movie

914
00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:46,400
Speaker 1: by paramount Garrison Davis. Uh and and yeah, what what

915
00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:51,120
Speaker 1: what I'm doing? Like a like a thing, Chris Garrison.

916
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:53,239
Speaker 1: Garrison's lost the thread? Why don't you pick it up?

917
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 1: I also have lost the thread. So here's the one.

918
00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:03,879
Speaker 1: This has been very confusing for of an episode, absolutely baffling. Look,

919
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:06,520
Speaker 1: you want things to not be confusing, you have somebody

920
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:12,919
Speaker 1: else introduce your podcast. That's just the way it goes noted. Yeah,

921
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:19,239
Speaker 1: so what welcome to part two of the Atlantis shooting. Um,

922
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:23,400
Speaker 1: we are back with actually less Atlanta this time, but

923
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:30,840
Speaker 1: more shooting. Oh good, sorry, this is a very absurd

924
00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:38,120
Speaker 1: Really we found ourselves, dear God, just a normal day

925
00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:43,640
Speaker 1: at work. Oh take it away, Chris, you got this,

926
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:46,520
Speaker 1: You got this. We believe in you. There's there's a

927
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:52,200
Speaker 1: tendency I think among Asian American writers where when we

928
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:56,280
Speaker 1: get confronted with what are you know, considered quote unquote

929
00:51:56,280 --> 00:52:01,760
Speaker 1: Asian American stories, there's almost inevitably an autobiographical pivot that happens.

930
00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:05,160
Speaker 1: Like at some points in the piece Um made Jong,

931
00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:08,640
Speaker 1: the author of the Vanity Fair piece I mentioned last episodes,

932
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:11,200
Speaker 1: that's been a major source for both these episodes. It

933
00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:13,759
Speaker 1: doesn't her piece, So do I mean? Like dozens and

934
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:16,440
Speaker 1: dozens and dozens of as American writers who are you know,

935
00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:19,840
Speaker 1: much more accomplished and talented than I am, And like,

936
00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:22,120
Speaker 1: I get it. I I don't blame them for it.

937
00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:24,239
Speaker 1: I think it's a powerful way to anchor a story

938
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:26,719
Speaker 1: and understand the story. And I also think that it's

939
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:31,800
Speaker 1: why we miss like half of the story that we

940
00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:35,920
Speaker 1: when we talk about things, because you know, the the

941
00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:41,560
Speaker 1: the audio autobiographical focus has this tendency to narrow the

942
00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 1: scope into looking at just sort of the US. And

943
00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:49,520
Speaker 1: this story and the story of Asian Americans in general,

944
00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:51,880
Speaker 1: isn't just a story about sort of a minority in

945
00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:55,080
Speaker 1: the US or about American imperialism. It's about Asia itself,

946
00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:58,479
Speaker 1: and here especially it's about China and Korea to lesser

947
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:04,800
Speaker 1: cent Japan. And you know, the histories of these places

948
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:08,520
Speaker 1: have as much to do with why the people who

949
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:10,719
Speaker 1: died in Atlanta were in those rooms on that day

950
00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 1: as Christian purity culture does. And you know, by by

951
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:17,320
Speaker 1: bym actually looking at this, we we got to introduce

952
00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:19,640
Speaker 1: another key player in this horror show who only sort

953
00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:22,160
Speaker 1: of appeared change intily in part one, which is capitalism.

954
00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:26,320
Speaker 1: Because capitalism is about to show up and make just

955
00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:30,840
Speaker 1: all of this monumentally worse. Yeah. It's kind of like

956
00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:36,040
Speaker 1: Steven Seagal in that way. Yeah, I think more much

957
00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:42,000
Speaker 1: more active than Steven Seagal, but by capitalism, unfortunately, moves

958
00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:45,319
Speaker 1: at an incredibly relentless pace. Yeah. Capitalism's knees are an

959
00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:50,200
Speaker 1: incredible shape. Yeah. So, and and this, this, this brings

960
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:54,360
Speaker 1: us back to Atlanta itself. Now, Yo Fong died a

961
00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:57,560
Speaker 1: hero in the final moments of her life. As shots

962
00:53:57,640 --> 00:54:02,160
Speaker 1: rang across Young Zation missaw she motioned for Marcus Leone,

963
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:05,799
Speaker 1: still half naked on the massage table, to stay still

964
00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:07,400
Speaker 1: and wait for her to walk in front of him

965
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:10,840
Speaker 1: before he died behind the massage table by covering Leon's

966
00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:13,480
Speaker 1: movement as she opened the door. She sacrificed her life

967
00:54:13,520 --> 00:54:15,040
Speaker 1: to save the life of a man she'd met just

968
00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:19,520
Speaker 1: minutes before. Her award, in typical American fashion, was a

969
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:23,120
Speaker 1: bullet in the head. It took six days for her

970
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:25,080
Speaker 1: family in China to realize that she had been killed.

971
00:54:25,560 --> 00:54:28,319
Speaker 1: By village custom, the remains of an unmarried woman who

972
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:30,640
Speaker 1: left the village could not re enter it to be buried.

973
00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:34,200
Speaker 1: Her body thus lay unclaimed in a morgue for nineteen

974
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:36,040
Speaker 1: days before she was buried in the land of her

975
00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:40,520
Speaker 1: killer at a funerals attended entirely by strangers. Marcus Leone,

976
00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:44,319
Speaker 1: the man Fong sacrificed her life to save, was forced

977
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:46,480
Speaker 1: to return to work at FedEx just three days after

978
00:54:46,520 --> 00:54:50,440
Speaker 1: surviving the massacre. The sound of the packages he dropped

979
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:54,520
Speaker 1: on his delivery runs sounded like gunshots. He quit soon after.

980
00:54:57,040 --> 00:54:59,400
Speaker 1: There is no justice in this world. Only an unending

981
00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:02,879
Speaker 1: parade of or the details of which are somehow each

982
00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:09,920
Speaker 1: worse than the last. And it is. Yeah, this is

983
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:11,840
Speaker 1: I think what I wanted to sort of what I

984
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:13,759
Speaker 1: wanted to talk about this episode, which is that, like,

985
00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:17,520
Speaker 1: it's not just that there was a shooting, it's that

986
00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:25,680
Speaker 1: each element of why everyone is there is its own

987
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:31,680
Speaker 1: successive horror story, and the conditions that produced this horror

988
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:33,400
Speaker 1: or not. You know, they're not just two conditions that

989
00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:36,680
Speaker 1: produce Probader and Long. They're not just the conditions that

990
00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:39,120
Speaker 1: produced to shoot her. They are the conditions that produced

991
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:42,279
Speaker 1: sail Fung. She spent almost her entire life as a

992
00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:45,000
Speaker 1: miket workers, supporting a family whose most pressing concern was

993
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:48,440
Speaker 1: attempting to marry her off. And and I think it's

994
00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:51,320
Speaker 1: worth tracing out these conditions and how they developed. Because

995
00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:54,960
Speaker 1: a twelve year old girl drops out of middle school

996
00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:57,320
Speaker 1: to work at a factory fifty miles away and that

997
00:55:57,400 --> 00:56:00,080
Speaker 1: eventually is gunned down by an American racist is not

998
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:04,279
Speaker 1: how the future of Asia was supposed to go. Like,

999
00:56:04,920 --> 00:56:08,600
Speaker 1: you know, I I don't have much love and imagine that. Yeah,

1000
00:56:08,680 --> 00:56:10,160
Speaker 1: it's like I don't have much loved for now, but

1001
00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:12,520
Speaker 1: I don't think if you showed mouth this he would

1002
00:56:12,560 --> 00:56:14,400
Speaker 1: be like, oh my god, this is the future that

1003
00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:18,759
Speaker 1: I wanted for my people. Like this, things have gone

1004
00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:21,600
Speaker 1: very badly wrong, and I think to understand how we

1005
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:23,360
Speaker 1: got to this hell, we need to go back to

1006
00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:26,120
Speaker 1: another hell, which is the beginning of the Korean War.

1007
00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:30,640
Speaker 1: And you know, we've talked about the effects that the

1008
00:56:30,719 --> 00:56:32,920
Speaker 1: Korean War had on Korean women in the last episode,

1009
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:34,359
Speaker 1: but I think there's a few other things that are

1010
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:38,280
Speaker 1: worth emphasizing here, one of which is that the absolute

1011
00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:42,480
Speaker 1: devastation that the war rought on North and South Korea

1012
00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:45,879
Speaker 1: is incalculable. I mean, the effects of this I still

1013
00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:52,279
Speaker 1: felt to this day. It was a utterly devastating war. Um.

1014
00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:59,080
Speaker 1: But it also has sort of more subtle effects on

1015
00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:04,120
Speaker 1: the sort of politics and economics of of the region

1016
00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:07,440
Speaker 1: because what one of the you know, one of the

1017
00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:09,160
Speaker 1: very important things about this war is that the US

1018
00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:12,480
Speaker 1: is fighting in East Asia, and this means that the

1019
00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:16,040
Speaker 1: US is going to leave an enormous army in South Korea,

1020
00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:18,840
Speaker 1: which has its own military and sort of political and

1021
00:57:18,880 --> 00:57:22,880
Speaker 1: economic consequences. And you know, those troops are still there

1022
00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:26,760
Speaker 1: to this day, like technically fighting a war which has

1023
00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:31,000
Speaker 1: never formally ended. And you know, we'll come back a

1024
00:57:31,080 --> 00:57:34,080
Speaker 1: bit to this later. But this has a enormous application

1025
00:57:34,120 --> 00:57:36,320
Speaker 1: for the entire region. Um. I've I've talked on bastards

1026
00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:41,640
Speaker 1: before about like you know, about so many effects this has.

1027
00:57:41,760 --> 00:57:45,640
Speaker 1: But you know, Korea and later Vietnam are a major

1028
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:47,640
Speaker 1: like the wars, the US fights there are a major

1029
00:57:47,680 --> 00:57:51,080
Speaker 1: factor behind the industrialization of Japan, which sees you know,

1030
00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:53,280
Speaker 1: enormous U S investment as part of this attempt to

1031
00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:56,400
Speaker 1: like shorten American supply lines by exporting their military industrial

1032
00:57:56,440 --> 00:57:58,840
Speaker 1: complex to East Asia. You know, we talked about the

1033
00:57:58,880 --> 00:58:01,920
Speaker 1: Japanese ankle this, but sell Korea is likewise industrialized, so

1034
00:58:01,960 --> 00:58:05,040
Speaker 1: American capital for you know, pretty much the same reason. Um,

1035
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:07,200
Speaker 1: you know, and and and this goes on to the

1036
00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:11,040
Speaker 1: extent that like Korean troops like fight on the side

1037
00:58:11,160 --> 00:58:14,640
Speaker 1: of the US in Vietnam, and you know, so in

1038
00:58:14,680 --> 00:58:17,200
Speaker 1: South Korea's production base proves a sort of a pivotal

1039
00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:21,320
Speaker 1: military asset for the US war machine in the East. Now,

1040
00:58:21,480 --> 00:58:23,000
Speaker 1: the thing I think, and I think I think that

1041
00:58:23,120 --> 00:58:27,120
Speaker 1: part of it like is understood decently well because you know,

1042
00:58:27,320 --> 00:58:28,600
Speaker 1: if you if you if if you do if you

1043
00:58:28,720 --> 00:58:31,160
Speaker 1: like you know literally anything about this region. You've you've

1044
00:58:31,160 --> 00:58:34,080
Speaker 1: seen the effects of this stuff. But the part of

1045
00:58:34,120 --> 00:58:37,520
Speaker 1: it I think is less understood is that in China,

1046
00:58:37,600 --> 00:58:40,520
Speaker 1: this the war has a similar effect, which is that

1047
00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:45,520
Speaker 1: communist leadership fights this war right and it immediately becomes

1048
00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:48,760
Speaker 1: clear to them that there is a looping possibility they're

1049
00:58:48,760 --> 00:58:50,120
Speaker 1: gonna have to fight the US again. And if they're

1050
00:58:50,160 --> 00:58:51,520
Speaker 1: gonna have to fight the US again, they need an

1051
00:58:51,520 --> 00:58:55,320
Speaker 1: actual sort of modern industrial base to fight a war

1052
00:58:55,360 --> 00:59:00,200
Speaker 1: against the US. And this, you know, this eas to

1053
00:59:00,240 --> 00:59:02,680
Speaker 1: sort of militarization, industrization, and you you get a look

1054
00:59:02,720 --> 00:59:06,480
Speaker 1: at two very different kinds of state led developments, uh,

1055
00:59:06,840 --> 00:59:09,880
Speaker 1: which I'm going to call state led development corruption and

1056
00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:16,160
Speaker 1: state state led development socialism question mark, which sort of

1057
00:59:16,240 --> 00:59:18,280
Speaker 1: which sort of a play out in China and Korea. UM.

1058
00:59:18,520 --> 00:59:22,160
Speaker 1: And you know, I think it's it's it's worth actually

1059
00:59:22,200 --> 00:59:25,800
Speaker 1: talking about this because both of these systems are essentially

1060
00:59:25,880 --> 00:59:29,080
Speaker 1: going to collapse, and when they do, they are going

1061
00:59:29,160 --> 00:59:32,000
Speaker 1: to send an enormous number of people, both in China

1062
00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:36,320
Speaker 1: and Korea, you know, spreading, spreading across the world seeking

1063
00:59:36,520 --> 00:59:42,240
Speaker 1: like any kind of sort of economic salvation. And a

1064
00:59:42,360 --> 00:59:45,160
Speaker 1: lot of the people who are killed in Atlanta are

1065
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:49,040
Speaker 1: in Atlanta because of these because of these crises. Yes,

1066
00:59:49,120 --> 00:59:51,640
Speaker 1: so so. The first of these is the chapel system

1067
00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:54,680
Speaker 1: in Korea, which is sort of informally established by the

1068
00:59:54,760 --> 00:59:56,640
Speaker 1: dictator Park junk Key is like the core of his

1069
00:59:56,720 --> 01:00:02,200
Speaker 1: plan for economic development, and it generates a number of

1070
01:00:02,280 --> 01:00:05,680
Speaker 1: extremely powerful family owned megan conglomerates with intimate ties to

1071
01:00:05,720 --> 01:00:07,760
Speaker 1: the state and these sort of various political factions, and

1072
01:00:08,040 --> 01:00:12,480
Speaker 1: these conglomerates which control just vast sections of the Korean economy.

1073
01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:15,680
Speaker 1: I like, like, like to this day, Samsung, which is

1074
01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:19,320
Speaker 1: the largest the remaining chabels, Like I think I think

1075
01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:22,600
Speaker 1: they're they're total percentage of the GDP of Korea's like

1076
01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:27,680
Speaker 1: seventeen percent or something. It's like, it's it's absolutely absurd. Jesus, Yeah,

1077
01:00:27,880 --> 01:00:30,440
Speaker 1: like and and and and like and the thing is

1078
01:00:30,480 --> 01:00:32,480
Speaker 1: that you know, and it's sort of it's basically about

1079
01:00:32,520 --> 01:00:35,520
Speaker 1: this is that like the chabels are much weaker than

1080
01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:39,000
Speaker 1: the ust to be um for reasons that we will

1081
01:00:39,040 --> 01:00:43,760
Speaker 1: get to in a bit. And you know, when when

1082
01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:45,160
Speaker 1: when they're found and when they're sort of at the

1083
01:00:45,200 --> 01:00:48,960
Speaker 1: height of their powers they have, you know, they're they're

1084
01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:52,280
Speaker 1: they're established with three goals. Um, there's an attempt to

1085
01:00:52,280 --> 01:00:56,480
Speaker 1: develop the economy. I you know, there's an attempt to

1086
01:00:56,520 --> 01:00:59,560
Speaker 1: sort of the fuel. There's attempt to sort of fuel

1087
01:00:59,560 --> 01:01:02,640
Speaker 1: the Abaric in South Korean war machines. And the third

1088
01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:04,080
Speaker 1: thing I'm trying to do is to make a lot

1089
01:01:04,120 --> 01:01:06,520
Speaker 1: of people in the government and their allies indescribably rich.

1090
01:01:07,240 --> 01:01:12,040
Speaker 1: And it works sort of amazingly, which is a weird

1091
01:01:12,200 --> 01:01:17,160
Speaker 1: thing to say about development regime started by military edcatorship,

1092
01:01:17,360 --> 01:01:20,200
Speaker 1: but they have they have an enormous amount of mill

1093
01:01:20,320 --> 01:01:26,800
Speaker 1: of American capital military aids, and like they do successfully develop,

1094
01:01:26,920 --> 01:01:28,760
Speaker 1: they kill in enormous sumber of people in the process,

1095
01:01:28,840 --> 01:01:33,000
Speaker 1: but you know, they do it. On on the other side,

1096
01:01:34,920 --> 01:01:37,880
Speaker 1: you have Chinese datelight developments, and this is also about

1097
01:01:37,920 --> 01:01:40,240
Speaker 1: economic development and fueling the military. But you know, the

1098
01:01:40,320 --> 01:01:42,920
Speaker 1: goal here is to create an economic base for socialism

1099
01:01:43,040 --> 01:01:48,600
Speaker 1: and this does not work. Um. There there there's number

1100
01:01:48,640 --> 01:01:51,680
Speaker 1: of complicated reasons for this. The simplest one is that

1101
01:01:51,800 --> 01:01:54,440
Speaker 1: China just doesn't get the kind of investment technology transfer

1102
01:01:54,560 --> 01:01:59,560
Speaker 1: south Korea gets until like way later. Um. But the

1103
01:01:59,680 --> 01:02:02,920
Speaker 1: other really important element of this for this story is

1104
01:02:03,120 --> 01:02:05,600
Speaker 1: about the urban world divide, and this is another thing

1105
01:02:05,600 --> 01:02:07,680
Speaker 1: I've talked about Bastards like on I've talked about on

1106
01:02:07,760 --> 01:02:10,400
Speaker 1: Bastards a bit, but I think it's worth going into

1107
01:02:10,480 --> 01:02:14,360
Speaker 1: the details a little bit because otherwise a lot of

1108
01:02:14,480 --> 01:02:19,000
Speaker 1: the stuff that's going to happen that is, you know,

1109
01:02:19,120 --> 01:02:22,600
Speaker 1: the the part of the story that is directly sending

1110
01:02:22,840 --> 01:02:25,680
Speaker 1: twelve year olds off to a factory and Shenzen like

1111
01:02:26,120 --> 01:02:31,320
Speaker 1: don't make any sense without it. So to make a

1112
01:02:31,440 --> 01:02:33,880
Speaker 1: very complicated and shifting set of economic programs like as

1113
01:02:33,920 --> 01:02:37,680
Speaker 1: simple as possible. UM. Chinese industrial policy dread what's sort

1114
01:02:37,720 --> 01:02:41,760
Speaker 1: of called the socialist period is about extracting grain from

1115
01:02:41,760 --> 01:02:44,520
Speaker 1: the countryside and fuelly and funneling get into urban industrial

1116
01:02:44,560 --> 01:02:47,040
Speaker 1: developments and you know, to get it, to get it

1117
01:02:47,120 --> 01:02:51,480
Speaker 1: like understanding of what we're talking about here. So the

1118
01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:55,200
Speaker 1: CCP is essentially deliberately under developing the countryside in favor

1119
01:02:55,240 --> 01:02:58,200
Speaker 1: of developing cities. And this is this is the supposed

1120
01:02:58,240 --> 01:03:01,800
Speaker 1: to state policy. UM from three in nine of the

1121
01:03:01,880 --> 01:03:05,480
Speaker 1: Chinese population is doing agricultural labor, but agriculture receives less

1122
01:03:05,480 --> 01:03:07,680
Speaker 1: than ten percent of state investments over the same period,

1123
01:03:09,240 --> 01:03:14,280
Speaker 1: so they are like really really really incredibly not funneling

1124
01:03:14,320 --> 01:03:18,840
Speaker 1: any resources back into into rural areas. Yeah, I mean

1125
01:03:19,840 --> 01:03:21,960
Speaker 1: is there a degree to that? Is there a degree

1126
01:03:22,200 --> 01:03:25,480
Speaker 1: of that that is maybe related to like I know

1127
01:03:25,840 --> 01:03:28,360
Speaker 1: in the USS are a lot of the early left

1128
01:03:28,440 --> 01:03:34,240
Speaker 1: wing resistance to the Soviet regime came from rural areas. Um,

1129
01:03:34,760 --> 01:03:36,400
Speaker 1: is there anything to do with that? Like, is it

1130
01:03:36,520 --> 01:03:40,320
Speaker 1: kind of a desire to avoid developing these places that

1131
01:03:40,400 --> 01:03:42,960
Speaker 1: are less controllable? No? And this is this is the

1132
01:03:43,000 --> 01:03:46,120
Speaker 1: sort of interesting thing about China is that I mean, Okay,

1133
01:03:46,120 --> 01:03:48,880
Speaker 1: so the CCP originally has an urban base, but they

1134
01:03:48,960 --> 01:03:55,160
Speaker 1: managed to get their retire urban base killed. So this

1135
01:03:55,360 --> 01:03:58,160
Speaker 1: is this is this is the cause of like like this,

1136
01:03:58,320 --> 01:03:59,400
Speaker 1: this is this is one of the reasons for the

1137
01:03:59,440 --> 01:04:03,640
Speaker 1: center Soviet split. Like this is basically like salon in

1138
01:04:03,680 --> 01:04:06,920
Speaker 1: Trotsky or bickering, and their bickering gets like a million

1139
01:04:07,040 --> 01:04:10,400
Speaker 1: Chinese communist killed, and that means that you know, this

1140
01:04:10,520 --> 01:04:11,880
Speaker 1: this this is this is where the sort of rise

1141
01:04:11,920 --> 01:04:14,040
Speaker 1: of Mao comes in, because Mao is a mau as

1142
01:04:14,080 --> 01:04:17,040
Speaker 1: a peasant organizer, and once the entire World Party is dead,

1143
01:04:17,160 --> 01:04:18,720
Speaker 1: it's like, well, okay, so now we have a peasant

1144
01:04:18,800 --> 01:04:22,080
Speaker 1: base and they have they actually have a really they

1145
01:04:22,120 --> 01:04:24,640
Speaker 1: have they have like a basically unprecedented level of of

1146
01:04:24,720 --> 01:04:28,320
Speaker 1: sort of buy in from the countryside. But the problem

1147
01:04:28,480 --> 01:04:32,560
Speaker 1: is that the party just isn't interested in world development

1148
01:04:32,560 --> 01:04:34,160
Speaker 1: because the thing that they want is they want to

1149
01:04:34,200 --> 01:04:35,920
Speaker 1: be able to develop military power and they want to

1150
01:04:35,920 --> 01:04:39,880
Speaker 1: be able to develop like heavy industry, and those aren't

1151
01:04:39,960 --> 01:04:41,720
Speaker 1: things that they think you can do in the countryside.

1152
01:04:41,720 --> 01:04:44,240
Speaker 1: And so their strategy is just to just I mean

1153
01:04:44,320 --> 01:04:47,000
Speaker 1: just literally it's just pure grain extraction from the countryside

1154
01:04:47,320 --> 01:04:50,800
Speaker 1: and then using that to feel industrial development, which they're

1155
01:04:50,840 --> 01:04:54,720
Speaker 1: doing for i mean largely ideological reasons, but it also

1156
01:04:54,760 --> 01:04:56,320
Speaker 1: does have to do with the fact that China, like

1157
01:04:59,120 --> 01:05:01,520
Speaker 1: like people people talk a lot about how like, you know,

1158
01:05:01,560 --> 01:05:03,680
Speaker 1: the communist revolution in Russia happens and like the least

1159
01:05:03,680 --> 01:05:06,520
Speaker 1: developed country in Europe, and it's like, yeah, but like

1160
01:05:06,800 --> 01:05:11,120
Speaker 1: Russia had like several times more industrial capacity in Russian

1161
01:05:11,120 --> 01:05:14,920
Speaker 1: Revolution than China does after the war. So this is

1162
01:05:14,960 --> 01:05:17,920
Speaker 1: a country that is like a complete economic backwater. And

1163
01:05:18,280 --> 01:05:19,520
Speaker 1: so you know, this, this is this is part of

1164
01:05:19,560 --> 01:05:22,240
Speaker 1: what they're doing. I thought it doesn't it doesn't work.

1165
01:05:23,240 --> 01:05:28,160
Speaker 1: And you know, I actually mentioned that there's one other

1166
01:05:28,200 --> 01:05:31,080
Speaker 1: thing that they're doing here, which is that so they're

1167
01:05:31,120 --> 01:05:35,520
Speaker 1: based in the peasantry is fairly solid. But the other

1168
01:05:35,600 --> 01:05:37,560
Speaker 1: thing they have to use this grain budget for is

1169
01:05:37,640 --> 01:05:40,600
Speaker 1: to buy off this like incredibly bilitant working class that

1170
01:05:40,640 --> 01:05:45,720
Speaker 1: they've inherited, because these people are on strike like constantly,

1171
01:05:46,320 --> 01:05:47,960
Speaker 1: and this is this is this is a really serious

1172
01:05:48,040 --> 01:05:50,480
Speaker 1: problem for the CCP, and so they you know, they

1173
01:05:50,520 --> 01:05:52,320
Speaker 1: have all these welfare programs, they have all of this

1174
01:05:52,400 --> 01:05:54,800
Speaker 1: sort of these resources that they're they're paying they're putting

1175
01:05:54,800 --> 01:05:57,640
Speaker 1: into sort of buying off this class. And the result

1176
01:05:57,720 --> 01:06:01,080
Speaker 1: of this is you have just incredible rural poverty because

1177
01:06:02,200 --> 01:06:03,640
Speaker 1: like one of one of the things that happens here

1178
01:06:03,760 --> 01:06:06,360
Speaker 1: is I guess, I guess you called the benefits, but

1179
01:06:06,520 --> 01:06:09,880
Speaker 1: things like there's like housing, education, like medical care, this

1180
01:06:09,920 --> 01:06:13,120
Speaker 1: stuff is all distributed like through your work and through

1181
01:06:13,160 --> 01:06:17,800
Speaker 1: your household registration. And so you know, if if if

1182
01:06:17,840 --> 01:06:21,280
Speaker 1: you're someone who has a job in the countryside, you're

1183
01:06:21,840 --> 01:06:24,760
Speaker 1: the resources that you're getting are are also from the countryside,

1184
01:06:24,800 --> 01:06:26,760
Speaker 1: and that means that you have just these like awful

1185
01:06:26,840 --> 01:06:29,400
Speaker 1: underfooted services, Your benefits are terrible. And even if you

1186
01:06:29,440 --> 01:06:31,120
Speaker 1: can somehow get a job in the city, which is

1187
01:06:31,840 --> 01:06:34,440
Speaker 1: really hard because China also has these like really intense

1188
01:06:34,520 --> 01:06:38,640
Speaker 1: internal like immigration restrictions. So like if if you're like

1189
01:06:38,720 --> 01:06:41,160
Speaker 1: in another province that you're not supposed to be, like you,

1190
01:06:41,320 --> 01:06:44,520
Speaker 1: you will get deported back to your home province. There's

1191
01:06:44,520 --> 01:06:47,880
Speaker 1: all these are these really tight controls, and this means

1192
01:06:47,960 --> 01:06:51,560
Speaker 1: that like if you're in a rural area, like your

1193
01:06:51,640 --> 01:06:55,520
Speaker 1: livelihood is tied to your family unit in a way

1194
01:06:55,560 --> 01:06:58,040
Speaker 1: that's like not happening anywhere near as intensely in the cities.

1195
01:06:58,160 --> 01:06:59,960
Speaker 1: And when I say your livelihood is tied to your

1196
01:07:00,000 --> 01:07:04,360
Speaker 1: emily unit, what I mean is that like other than

1197
01:07:04,640 --> 01:07:08,240
Speaker 1: this like brief like token attempt they make to socialize,

1198
01:07:08,320 --> 01:07:12,560
Speaker 1: like housework reproductive labor in the greatly forward men in

1199
01:07:12,680 --> 01:07:16,120
Speaker 1: the state are just like entirely dependent on uncompensated housework

1200
01:07:16,160 --> 01:07:21,200
Speaker 1: and production by women, which yeah, it's not just a

1201
01:07:21,320 --> 01:07:24,680
Speaker 1: China thing. Yeah, I mean yeah, it's like okay, it's like, oh, hey,

1202
01:07:24,720 --> 01:07:26,520
Speaker 1: this sounds like your modern system and like yes, this

1203
01:07:26,760 --> 01:07:30,440
Speaker 1: is true. Um. But on the other hand, the socialists

1204
01:07:30,600 --> 01:07:33,080
Speaker 1: like ideologically are claiming to be better than this, So

1205
01:07:33,200 --> 01:07:34,960
Speaker 1: I'm holding them through their own standards and giving them

1206
01:07:35,040 --> 01:07:40,200
Speaker 1: just like d on this because this is like yeah,

1207
01:07:40,520 --> 01:07:43,440
Speaker 1: I mean, like I think this is really one of like,

1208
01:07:44,320 --> 01:07:46,000
Speaker 1: you know, Okay, so they failed to end capitalism. But

1209
01:07:46,200 --> 01:07:47,800
Speaker 1: I think if if you look at, like, what is

1210
01:07:47,840 --> 01:07:49,920
Speaker 1: the other great failure of the Chinese Revolution, it's that

1211
01:07:50,840 --> 01:07:54,160
Speaker 1: they never dealt with the patriarchy. And this means, like,

1212
01:07:54,240 --> 01:07:56,400
Speaker 1: you know what, when when Mao is saying stuff about

1213
01:07:56,440 --> 01:07:58,200
Speaker 1: like women hold up half the sky, like, what what

1214
01:07:58,320 --> 01:08:01,320
Speaker 1: he actually means is that like women's labor is holding

1215
01:08:01,400 --> 01:08:03,200
Speaker 1: up like seventy percent of the budget and they're getting

1216
01:08:03,240 --> 01:08:08,680
Speaker 1: like twenty of the pay. And this this is extremely

1217
01:08:08,720 --> 01:08:12,400
Speaker 1: important for reasons that we will get to in a second,

1218
01:08:12,600 --> 01:08:15,560
Speaker 1: because it turns out if your entire economy is based

1219
01:08:15,600 --> 01:08:18,640
Speaker 1: on patriarchy, really bad things start happening in terms of

1220
01:08:18,720 --> 01:08:22,639
Speaker 1: your gender politics, which is a thing that has never

1221
01:08:23,120 --> 01:08:25,080
Speaker 1: has literally never happened in any other regime. But we

1222
01:08:25,120 --> 01:08:27,280
Speaker 1: should not at all take any lessons from this about

1223
01:08:27,320 --> 01:08:30,719
Speaker 1: how our own economy works. It's great, It's completely fine.

1224
01:08:31,280 --> 01:08:33,200
Speaker 1: The other thing that we need to talk about is

1225
01:08:35,080 --> 01:08:40,920
Speaker 1: the CCPs just utter full scale war against urban workers.

1226
01:08:42,280 --> 01:08:44,479
Speaker 1: And this is not the kind of like abstract class

1227
01:08:44,520 --> 01:08:46,439
Speaker 1: war that you hear Left is talking about all the time,

1228
01:08:46,520 --> 01:08:49,200
Speaker 1: that's you know about like wages, unionization and so forth.

1229
01:08:49,280 --> 01:08:52,479
Speaker 1: Like this is an actual war that is resolved by

1230
01:08:52,600 --> 01:08:55,080
Speaker 1: the by just the p l A, the Chinese army

1231
01:08:55,160 --> 01:08:58,519
Speaker 1: just butchering the Chinese working class. And this comes to

1232
01:08:58,560 --> 01:09:01,400
Speaker 1: a head and the Cultural Revolution ends. You know. I

1233
01:09:01,960 --> 01:09:03,759
Speaker 1: have I have a whole rant about the Culture Revolution

1234
01:09:03,800 --> 01:09:06,680
Speaker 1: that I will do sometime that's not now. But the

1235
01:09:06,760 --> 01:09:09,360
Speaker 1: short version of it is that one of the things

1236
01:09:09,400 --> 01:09:12,919
Speaker 1: that happens in the Culture Revolution is that the CCP

1237
01:09:14,320 --> 01:09:17,120
Speaker 1: crushes these sort of rebel worker factions and they kill

1238
01:09:17,200 --> 01:09:21,960
Speaker 1: a million people, like from from from from Yeah, I

1239
01:09:22,000 --> 01:09:27,880
Speaker 1: mean it's like it's really it's really slick. Comparing it,

1240
01:09:28,000 --> 01:09:30,960
Speaker 1: like to the scale of like the great anti communist purges,

1241
01:09:31,479 --> 01:09:34,000
Speaker 1: like this is I think it. I think it's actually more.

1242
01:09:34,080 --> 01:09:35,880
Speaker 1: I think it's a million people. I think it's more

1243
01:09:35,960 --> 01:09:40,200
Speaker 1: people than than Sue Hardo killed. It's like there you go,

1244
01:09:40,520 --> 01:09:43,640
Speaker 1: see there's some left right unity. Yeah, it's well, I

1245
01:09:43,680 --> 01:09:47,880
Speaker 1: mean Mount MoU undisputed greatest anti communists, has the highest

1246
01:09:47,920 --> 01:09:51,280
Speaker 1: number of Communism kills. Well, I don't know, let's let's

1247
01:09:51,400 --> 01:09:54,479
Speaker 1: I mean, Joseph Stalin's in that running. That's true. You've

1248
01:09:54,479 --> 01:09:56,600
Speaker 1: got to You've got to. You've got a couple of

1249
01:09:56,720 --> 01:09:59,799
Speaker 1: Titans battling it out here. Yeah, it's it's it's definitely,

1250
01:09:59,840 --> 01:10:02,439
Speaker 1: it's it's it's a difficult choice. But yeah, I mean

1251
01:10:02,520 --> 01:10:05,439
Speaker 1: like they are like like this CCP is literally fighting

1252
01:10:05,439 --> 01:10:07,640
Speaker 1: a war against against cerverin workers, and like this is

1253
01:10:07,880 --> 01:10:10,040
Speaker 1: even by like the mid seventies, there are there are

1254
01:10:10,080 --> 01:10:12,280
Speaker 1: moments where the army is sending like tens of thousands

1255
01:10:12,360 --> 01:10:14,240
Speaker 1: of work since the thousands of troops like in the

1256
01:10:14,320 --> 01:10:17,560
Speaker 1: cities to break up strike waves. And this is this

1257
01:10:17,640 --> 01:10:21,280
Speaker 1: is an enormous problem for CCP, you know, Okay, Like

1258
01:10:21,400 --> 01:10:24,559
Speaker 1: it's an aorways problem for them politically because it turns

1259
01:10:24,600 --> 01:10:27,040
Speaker 1: out that being a communist party and then the thing

1260
01:10:27,120 --> 01:10:29,320
Speaker 1: that you're doing all of the time is sending soldiers

1261
01:10:29,360 --> 01:10:33,440
Speaker 1: to shoot workers is really bad for your political system ideologically.

1262
01:10:35,680 --> 01:10:41,880
Speaker 1: Well okay, that's your opinion. Yeah it does. It doesn't

1263
01:10:41,880 --> 01:10:43,519
Speaker 1: go great for them. And and the the other problem

1264
01:10:43,560 --> 01:10:47,360
Speaker 1: they have is, uh, you know, this this creates this

1265
01:10:47,520 --> 01:10:50,600
Speaker 1: like this incredible militarization of society, and this leads a

1266
01:10:50,640 --> 01:10:52,600
Speaker 1: stagnation and there's all this corruption that's happening. But the

1267
01:10:52,640 --> 01:10:55,080
Speaker 1: other problem is like, okay, so if you're like a

1268
01:10:55,160 --> 01:10:58,080
Speaker 1: cadre like Planner, right, and there's always people on strike.

1269
01:10:59,040 --> 01:11:00,880
Speaker 1: You need to not be strike because you needed to

1270
01:11:01,000 --> 01:11:05,680
Speaker 1: produce stuff for your like central planning production schedules, and

1271
01:11:05,880 --> 01:11:09,320
Speaker 1: so all of these like cadre planners start being like, okay,

1272
01:11:09,360 --> 01:11:11,519
Speaker 1: these workers keep going on strike, like where where can

1273
01:11:11,560 --> 01:11:13,360
Speaker 1: we get labor that won't do this? And they start

1274
01:11:13,360 --> 01:11:18,240
Speaker 1: looking at the countryside and they start going like beard stroke,

1275
01:11:18,439 --> 01:11:23,000
Speaker 1: can we send this over here? And meanwhile, like the

1276
01:11:23,080 --> 01:11:26,000
Speaker 1: actual world, like real lights are fed up with just

1277
01:11:26,120 --> 01:11:31,000
Speaker 1: being treated like shit, and they start decollectivizing their farms

1278
01:11:31,080 --> 01:11:33,760
Speaker 1: because okay, there's a lot of reasons why they're doing this,

1279
01:11:33,880 --> 01:11:38,080
Speaker 1: but they essentially start forming these things that become called

1280
01:11:38,439 --> 01:11:41,400
Speaker 1: town and village enterprises, which are these like the civil

1281
01:11:41,439 --> 01:11:44,040
Speaker 1: sixplination of it is that they basically start for forming

1282
01:11:44,080 --> 01:11:46,839
Speaker 1: capitalist companies and trying to make money. But the ownership

1283
01:11:46,840 --> 01:11:48,600
Speaker 1: structures are a bit different because they're like, you know,

1284
01:11:48,640 --> 01:11:50,759
Speaker 1: it'll be like a village, right, and like the village

1285
01:11:51,479 --> 01:11:54,960
Speaker 1: like technically collectively owns this like company that makes tires

1286
01:11:55,080 --> 01:11:59,120
Speaker 1: or something, right, And this is where you start getting

1287
01:11:59,360 --> 01:12:01,519
Speaker 1: markets coming China. And the CCP looks at this, it

1288
01:12:01,560 --> 01:12:04,360
Speaker 1: goes like yeah, sure this is fine, Uh that this

1289
01:12:04,520 --> 01:12:08,240
Speaker 1: this won't stop our communism thing because we're having budget

1290
01:12:08,280 --> 01:12:10,000
Speaker 1: shortfalls right now, and if we let someone else do

1291
01:12:10,120 --> 01:12:14,360
Speaker 1: this work, we don't have to pay for it. And

1292
01:12:14,920 --> 01:12:18,439
Speaker 1: these so these town of village enterprises are called tv s.

1293
01:12:18,640 --> 01:12:20,920
Speaker 1: Like mostly what they're doing is they're like selling parts

1294
01:12:21,080 --> 01:12:23,800
Speaker 1: and stuff to like these giants. State own enterprises, which

1295
01:12:23,800 --> 01:12:26,000
Speaker 1: are you know, your state own enterprises are things that

1296
01:12:26,040 --> 01:12:29,280
Speaker 1: are building like bikes, like tractors and refrigerators, so they're

1297
01:12:29,280 --> 01:12:31,360
Speaker 1: like you know, they're selling them like wheels or like

1298
01:12:31,880 --> 01:12:37,840
Speaker 1: refrigerator parts. And this is this is the thing that

1299
01:12:37,880 --> 01:12:40,840
Speaker 1: becomes the core of the Chinese economy, particularly in Dario

1300
01:12:40,960 --> 01:12:45,280
Speaker 1: Fung's home province of Guandong, because Gando is really unique,

1301
01:12:46,120 --> 01:12:49,080
Speaker 1: well okay, really unique province. Like this is the thing

1302
01:12:49,120 --> 01:12:52,160
Speaker 1: you can say about literally every province, but Gwendong is

1303
01:12:52,680 --> 01:12:54,479
Speaker 1: particularly unique in this period because it's right next to

1304
01:12:54,479 --> 01:13:01,320
Speaker 1: Hong Kong. And this means that, I mean, there's always

1305
01:13:01,360 --> 01:13:05,080
Speaker 1: been sort of like capital kind of through really shady

1306
01:13:05,120 --> 01:13:08,719
Speaker 1: black markets and like people passing each other like notes

1307
01:13:08,840 --> 01:13:11,439
Speaker 1: under dinner tables and extra like all all of the

1308
01:13:11,520 --> 01:13:15,439
Speaker 1: weird like diplomacy stuff that like like Kissinger and Dixon

1309
01:13:15,479 --> 01:13:18,559
Speaker 1: get up to is happening through these like weird back

1310
01:13:18,680 --> 01:13:20,920
Speaker 1: channels that a lot of which are running through Hong Kong.

1311
01:13:20,920 --> 01:13:22,360
Speaker 1: There's a lot of stuff that's been sort of running

1312
01:13:22,360 --> 01:13:27,800
Speaker 1: through there. And when this stuff starts to happen, um

1313
01:13:29,080 --> 01:13:34,120
Speaker 1: you uh Gwendong gets these special economic zones and this

1314
01:13:34,280 --> 01:13:37,880
Speaker 1: becomes sort of the prototype for China's like eventual sort

1315
01:13:37,920 --> 01:13:40,880
Speaker 1: of capitalist centric like export development model. Um Gwendong is

1316
01:13:40,960 --> 01:13:43,960
Speaker 1: like they're they're literally there, They're they're they're they're taking

1317
01:13:44,120 --> 01:13:46,320
Speaker 1: like form capital from Hong Kong and they're using it

1318
01:13:46,400 --> 01:13:50,040
Speaker 1: to produce good for the market. And this is the

1319
01:13:50,200 --> 01:13:55,840
Speaker 1: world that Dano Fong and shout Jitan grow up in. Um.

1320
01:13:56,280 --> 01:13:59,280
Speaker 1: It's a world where on the one hand, there's enormous

1321
01:13:59,280 --> 01:14:01,040
Speaker 1: economic growth. On the other hand, like all of the

1322
01:14:01,080 --> 01:14:03,320
Speaker 1: safety nets that Chinese socialism have put in place are

1323
01:14:03,360 --> 01:14:07,240
Speaker 1: just like being completely destroyed and everyone is once again

1324
01:14:07,320 --> 01:14:13,000
Speaker 1: dependent on wages to survive. And it's also an incredibly

1325
01:14:13,080 --> 01:14:16,280
Speaker 1: deeply patriarchal world. You know, and we've seen this already

1326
01:14:16,439 --> 01:14:21,960
Speaker 1: right with Diane Fung's village, just like refusing to bury

1327
01:14:22,040 --> 01:14:26,360
Speaker 1: her body because she's not married, and you know, this

1328
01:14:26,520 --> 01:14:28,640
Speaker 1: is this is something that's only gotten worse as the

1329
01:14:28,720 --> 01:14:30,479
Speaker 1: sort of as the eighties where we're on, you get

1330
01:14:30,479 --> 01:14:32,880
Speaker 1: into their form period. You have simultaneous you have the

1331
01:14:32,920 --> 01:14:38,720
Speaker 1: one child policy, which is this incredibly draconian state and

1332
01:14:38,760 --> 01:14:42,560
Speaker 1: forced destruction of bodily autonomy, and it also serves this

1333
01:14:43,240 --> 01:14:47,320
Speaker 1: really horrific role and devalue in girls because girls are

1334
01:14:47,560 --> 01:14:50,360
Speaker 1: as having less economic value than boys. And so you

1335
01:14:50,439 --> 01:14:51,840
Speaker 1: get all these things where like you get these you

1336
01:14:51,880 --> 01:14:55,519
Speaker 1: get targeted like gender targeted abortions. They're these masterializations that happen,

1337
01:14:55,880 --> 01:15:01,880
Speaker 1: and yeah, it's this just enormous patriarchal engine and it sucks.

1338
01:15:02,520 --> 01:15:05,360
Speaker 1: And there's also there's a return to Confucianism as well,

1339
01:15:05,479 --> 01:15:07,479
Speaker 1: because like, and this is one of the things is

1340
01:15:07,560 --> 01:15:11,280
Speaker 1: like the most infuriating about this because like like of

1341
01:15:11,400 --> 01:15:13,960
Speaker 1: like what the original Chinese Revolution was about was like, hey,

1342
01:15:14,040 --> 01:15:19,880
Speaker 1: Confucianism sucks. Like this incredible like reactionary patriarchal ideology is

1343
01:15:19,920 --> 01:15:25,479
Speaker 1: in fact bad. And then like forty years in there,

1344
01:15:25,560 --> 01:15:28,960
Speaker 1: like hold on, wait, what if we bring this ship back?

1345
01:15:31,000 --> 01:15:35,080
Speaker 1: And it is it is it is extremely bad, and

1346
01:15:35,280 --> 01:15:36,960
Speaker 1: you know, and it serves as a sort of like

1347
01:15:37,040 --> 01:15:39,640
Speaker 1: like this pacifying picture archical ideology that they're using to

1348
01:15:39,640 --> 01:15:42,240
Speaker 1: sort of hold the family unit together because the family

1349
01:15:42,360 --> 01:15:45,200
Speaker 1: unit are so there's a lot of the firms in

1350
01:15:45,240 --> 01:15:48,160
Speaker 1: this period they're just like owned by families, right, and

1351
01:15:48,560 --> 01:15:50,040
Speaker 1: you know, you can there's there's a lot of sort

1352
01:15:50,080 --> 01:15:52,280
Speaker 1: of similarities here between if you look at your like,

1353
01:15:53,960 --> 01:15:56,280
Speaker 1: you know, you're you're sort of like right wing, like

1354
01:15:57,000 --> 01:16:00,519
Speaker 1: culturally Christian like small business owner families, and you look

1355
01:16:00,560 --> 01:16:04,600
Speaker 1: at this and it's like, uh, we've we've we've redeveloped

1356
01:16:04,600 --> 01:16:07,479
Speaker 1: the wheel here. We we have once again created the

1357
01:16:07,520 --> 01:16:15,599
Speaker 1: patriarchal death engine. Good who it's it's great, it's yeah.

1358
01:16:15,760 --> 01:16:22,240
Speaker 1: And this this is basically this is the world that

1359
01:16:23,520 --> 01:16:29,200
Speaker 1: Dayo fang like grows up in. And this is the

1360
01:16:29,280 --> 01:16:32,599
Speaker 1: period where the old urban working class is just hammered

1361
01:16:32,640 --> 01:16:34,759
Speaker 1: to pieces so that the state and capital just gorge

1362
01:16:34,800 --> 01:16:37,240
Speaker 1: itself as well for benefits, and the new Chinese working

1363
01:16:37,240 --> 01:16:44,520
Speaker 1: class is born, and this migrant working class, it's vanguard

1364
01:16:44,600 --> 01:16:47,240
Speaker 1: are these women who are given to imperatives by their families.

1365
01:16:47,280 --> 01:16:49,839
Speaker 1: And these these these imperatives are given I mean literally

1366
01:16:50,000 --> 01:16:53,760
Speaker 1: Dayong fang like Dayo fang Like directly and I think

1367
01:16:53,840 --> 01:16:59,920
Speaker 1: indirectly to um shout git on well because it like

1368
01:17:00,000 --> 01:17:02,080
Speaker 1: with with Daya Fong, like we literally have the quotes

1369
01:17:02,120 --> 01:17:04,760
Speaker 1: of this right, like she she is told by her

1370
01:17:04,800 --> 01:17:09,880
Speaker 1: family get married and find a job and shout Shitan

1371
01:17:10,120 --> 01:17:13,120
Speaker 1: gets married off at twenty but a middle school day

1372
01:17:13,320 --> 01:17:16,960
Speaker 1: Fog like drops out of school and just goes to

1373
01:17:17,000 --> 01:17:22,920
Speaker 1: work in a factory in Shenzen, and this like these

1374
01:17:22,960 --> 01:17:25,400
Speaker 1: are the women who built modern China, like these are

1375
01:17:25,439 --> 01:17:27,639
Speaker 1: these are literally these are the people who turned shens

1376
01:17:27,680 --> 01:17:30,960
Speaker 1: In from a tiny rural town into a world class

1377
01:17:31,000 --> 01:17:33,200
Speaker 1: manufacturing caub that is literally larger than any city in

1378
01:17:33,240 --> 01:17:35,519
Speaker 1: North America. And I mean this happens in the span

1379
01:17:35,640 --> 01:17:41,840
Speaker 1: of like a couple of decades, and they get jack

1380
01:17:41,920 --> 01:17:44,240
Speaker 1: shipped for it, like the wages they are working for.

1381
01:17:44,840 --> 01:17:48,280
Speaker 1: Like Dayan Fong's brother is working on rubber plantation. He's

1382
01:17:48,320 --> 01:17:51,880
Speaker 1: making five dollars a month. And you know, in Dion

1383
01:17:51,960 --> 01:17:53,800
Speaker 1: Fong's case, like the other thing she's dealing with is

1384
01:17:53,880 --> 01:17:56,160
Speaker 1: literally these constant demands for a family to get married,

1385
01:17:56,800 --> 01:18:00,679
Speaker 1: and Fong just refuses. They try to was a young adult,

1386
01:18:00,760 --> 01:18:03,000
Speaker 1: she just goes no, and they try to try to

1387
01:18:03,040 --> 01:18:04,680
Speaker 1: to get like when she's like thirty eight, they like

1388
01:18:04,720 --> 01:18:06,280
Speaker 1: they bring her back to her village and her like

1389
01:18:06,400 --> 01:18:09,160
Speaker 1: pick a husband, she just goes no, and she just

1390
01:18:09,360 --> 01:18:11,600
Speaker 1: like they keep showing your guys gypsy come like no.

1391
01:18:12,880 --> 01:18:16,599
Speaker 1: And you know what she does instead is charter her

1392
01:18:16,640 --> 01:18:20,080
Speaker 1: own path by managing to secure a visa to the

1393
01:18:20,240 --> 01:18:25,160
Speaker 1: US where and this this, this is so Diao pongs

1394
01:18:25,200 --> 01:18:28,240
Speaker 1: like he's a margant worker for ages and eventually I think,

1395
01:18:28,320 --> 01:18:31,200
Speaker 1: like she wasn't sixteen, she moves to the US to

1396
01:18:31,520 --> 01:18:35,439
Speaker 1: support her family. Again from afar, there's there's only there's

1397
01:18:35,520 --> 01:18:38,120
Speaker 1: one more piece of macroeconomics. I mean you talk about

1398
01:18:38,160 --> 01:18:40,639
Speaker 1: before we can follow Dio Pong to the massage parlor,

1399
01:18:40,800 --> 01:18:45,160
Speaker 1: and this one is going to get like everyone else,

1400
01:18:45,400 --> 01:18:48,519
Speaker 1: to the scene of this massacre. So what when we

1401
01:18:48,640 --> 01:18:53,320
Speaker 1: last left our Korean corruption chapels, business business is booming,

1402
01:18:53,800 --> 01:18:57,360
Speaker 1: and in the early nineties business is like even more booming.

1403
01:18:57,439 --> 01:18:59,120
Speaker 1: It is this is this is the best I've ever

1404
01:18:59,200 --> 01:19:01,559
Speaker 1: done economically. And the reason is the best I've ever

1405
01:19:01,600 --> 01:19:06,599
Speaker 1: done economically is because is by in large part because

1406
01:19:06,640 --> 01:19:09,080
Speaker 1: of the thing that I am just perpetually cursed by

1407
01:19:09,240 --> 01:19:10,840
Speaker 1: when I do research for this show, which is the

1408
01:19:10,920 --> 01:19:14,840
Speaker 1: Plaza chords. Um. I've talked about this before, but I

1409
01:19:14,920 --> 01:19:17,200
Speaker 1: will once again, do a brief summary of this, which

1410
01:19:17,240 --> 01:19:20,720
Speaker 1: is that so in the nineties, as people probably are

1411
01:19:20,720 --> 01:19:22,880
Speaker 1: aware of the U s the US manufacturing economy is dying.

1412
01:19:24,120 --> 01:19:26,520
Speaker 1: And this is a real problem for Reagan because everyone's

1413
01:19:26,600 --> 01:19:30,719
Speaker 1: like Reagan, why does the economy suck? And his solution

1414
01:19:30,760 --> 01:19:34,080
Speaker 1: to this is just basically, at gunpoint, forcing Japan and

1415
01:19:34,160 --> 01:19:37,200
Speaker 1: West Germany to like let the U s D value

1416
01:19:37,240 --> 01:19:39,160
Speaker 1: its currency relative to the end of the Deutsche Mark.

1417
01:19:39,200 --> 01:19:40,599
Speaker 1: And it's like, Okay, this is a this is a boring,

1418
01:19:40,640 --> 01:19:45,080
Speaker 1: tetocratic thing. But the thing it actually does is if

1419
01:19:45,840 --> 01:19:48,920
Speaker 1: if your currency is weaker than another currency, it's easier

1420
01:19:49,000 --> 01:19:51,000
Speaker 1: for you to like sell them to have an export

1421
01:19:51,000 --> 01:19:55,080
Speaker 1: economy and sell them stuff. And this sets off just

1422
01:19:55,360 --> 01:19:58,760
Speaker 1: like an incredibly catastrophic chain of events where the US

1423
01:19:58,800 --> 01:20:02,519
Speaker 1: manufacturing actually comes back because you know, hey, hey, look

1424
01:20:02,600 --> 01:20:04,880
Speaker 1: the dollars the dollars week and now we can produce

1425
01:20:04,960 --> 01:20:09,200
Speaker 1: it again. But it just, you know it, it combines

1426
01:20:09,240 --> 01:20:12,600
Speaker 1: with this like structural weakness, Japan's economy, Japan's economies dimplodes,

1427
01:20:13,640 --> 01:20:16,160
Speaker 1: and Japan goes, okay, funk it. How do we keep

1428
01:20:16,200 --> 01:20:20,320
Speaker 1: the economy going without manufacturing sector? And their solution is

1429
01:20:20,479 --> 01:20:25,680
Speaker 1: invest in other countries and do real estate speculation, and

1430
01:20:25,920 --> 01:20:28,719
Speaker 1: you know, okay, so obviously nothing bad ever happens happens

1431
01:20:28,720 --> 01:20:30,920
Speaker 1: when you do real estate speculation. And the Japanese economy

1432
01:20:30,960 --> 01:20:33,960
Speaker 1: was completely fine until it collapsed like five years later. Um,

1433
01:20:35,160 --> 01:20:37,800
Speaker 1: but this this is a series of effects. One of

1434
01:20:37,880 --> 01:20:41,920
Speaker 1: them is that the Korean shables, you know, those those

1435
01:20:41,960 --> 01:20:43,800
Speaker 1: companies that are doing like literally the best business I've

1436
01:20:43,800 --> 01:20:46,080
Speaker 1: ever done. The reason they're doing this is because of

1437
01:20:46,160 --> 01:20:53,400
Speaker 1: Japanese credit and the fact that like there's there's more

1438
01:20:53,439 --> 01:20:56,240
Speaker 1: complicated currency bullshit going on. But basically, like the value

1439
01:20:56,280 --> 01:20:58,719
Speaker 1: the value of the Korean currency was pegged to the dollar,

1440
01:20:58,880 --> 01:21:02,200
Speaker 1: and so when the dollars value decreased, uh, the wand

1441
01:21:02,240 --> 01:21:05,719
Speaker 1: also decreased, and so you know this, this this gives

1442
01:21:05,840 --> 01:21:09,280
Speaker 1: Korea like a big manufacturing competitive manufacturing edge. But then

1443
01:21:09,560 --> 01:21:12,320
Speaker 1: you know, Japan goes under and they start to lose credit,

1444
01:21:12,439 --> 01:21:15,559
Speaker 1: and then the US does the reverse Plaza Chords where

1445
01:21:15,600 --> 01:21:18,040
Speaker 1: they just reverse the thing that they did before, and

1446
01:21:18,160 --> 01:21:21,800
Speaker 1: so now the dollar is incredibly strong again. Every other

1447
01:21:21,880 --> 01:21:23,880
Speaker 1: currency is really weak well due to it. And this

1448
01:21:24,120 --> 01:21:29,280
Speaker 1: just like this just obliterates like every economy in East Asia,

1449
01:21:30,120 --> 01:21:32,400
Speaker 1: like they all just implode, Thailand goes under, and most

1450
01:21:32,400 --> 01:21:34,599
Speaker 1: of these countries that have never recovered, like Thailand trickler,

1451
01:21:34,960 --> 01:21:38,720
Speaker 1: like the I mean, South Korea kind of does, but

1452
01:21:38,840 --> 01:21:40,479
Speaker 1: it's basically the only one. All the rest of the

1453
01:21:40,520 --> 01:21:44,720
Speaker 1: economies are just obliterated. And you know, this, this is

1454
01:21:45,000 --> 01:21:48,400
Speaker 1: this is the Asian economic crisis, and you know, saddle

1455
01:21:48,479 --> 01:21:50,960
Speaker 1: with like enormous debts and declining profits like these tables

1456
01:21:51,000 --> 01:21:54,519
Speaker 1: started collapsing left and right, and South Korea just is

1457
01:21:54,680 --> 01:21:57,040
Speaker 1: just on the edge of bankruptcy and right on Q

1458
01:21:57,280 --> 01:21:59,240
Speaker 1: the I m F shows up and makes everything worse

1459
01:22:01,520 --> 01:22:04,960
Speaker 1: because yeah, it's great, it's the I m F. They yeah,

1460
01:22:05,040 --> 01:22:07,200
Speaker 1: they do, they do normal I m F stuff, and

1461
01:22:07,240 --> 01:22:09,280
Speaker 1: they you know, they impose a bunch of austerity measures,

1462
01:22:09,960 --> 01:22:13,040
Speaker 1: and this just this annihilates the Korean middle class. Like

1463
01:22:13,160 --> 01:22:16,360
Speaker 1: it's just it just gets obliterated. This is this, this

1464
01:22:16,479 --> 01:22:18,599
Speaker 1: is just a death knell. And it it also has

1465
01:22:18,760 --> 01:22:20,160
Speaker 1: you know, it has a lot of effects. But one

1466
01:22:20,200 --> 01:22:22,720
Speaker 1: of the other ones is the Korean labor movements is

1467
01:22:22,960 --> 01:22:27,040
Speaker 1: really severely damaged by just all the economic devastates that's

1468
01:22:27,040 --> 01:22:31,680
Speaker 1: happening around them. And the product of this is just

1469
01:22:31,800 --> 01:22:38,240
Speaker 1: as sort of rural poverty drives Dayong Fong and Jan

1470
01:22:38,360 --> 01:22:42,719
Speaker 1: from their villages. The economic collapse drives Kian Jung Kim grants,

1471
01:22:42,760 --> 01:22:45,400
Speaker 1: who's one of the other people who died in this shooting,

1472
01:22:46,200 --> 01:22:49,920
Speaker 1: from Korea to the US. And this is something that

1473
01:22:50,040 --> 01:22:55,120
Speaker 1: this is there's there's something about the U S here. Well, okay,

1474
01:22:55,280 --> 01:22:57,719
Speaker 1: something about the US is that it's economy is incredibly strong,

1475
01:22:57,840 --> 01:23:00,479
Speaker 1: and the dollar is incredibly strong. And even in people

1476
01:23:00,720 --> 01:23:03,680
Speaker 1: who come to the US for other reasons that the

1477
01:23:04,120 --> 01:23:07,160
Speaker 1: two of the women who went up here, like are

1478
01:23:07,240 --> 01:23:10,800
Speaker 1: here basically because they buried someone. And but even that,

1479
01:23:10,920 --> 01:23:12,280
Speaker 1: you know, they like there's a couple of people like

1480
01:23:12,320 --> 01:23:14,600
Speaker 1: they marry someone and they break up, divorces the but

1481
01:23:14,640 --> 01:23:15,760
Speaker 1: they stay in the U s. And they stay in

1482
01:23:15,800 --> 01:23:20,160
Speaker 1: the US because like the median American income is like

1483
01:23:20,280 --> 01:23:22,400
Speaker 1: three times the median American income in China, and that's

1484
01:23:22,439 --> 01:23:28,120
Speaker 1: like now, and so you know, and the combination of

1485
01:23:28,160 --> 01:23:30,599
Speaker 1: that and the strength of the American the American dollars

1486
01:23:30,600 --> 01:23:34,919
Speaker 1: sort of it brings it brings the brave, the desperate,

1487
01:23:35,120 --> 01:23:40,240
Speaker 1: and just the love struck to our shores. Um. Now,

1488
01:23:40,400 --> 01:23:46,320
Speaker 1: if you remember lcs Hernande's Ortiz, Who's who's the man

1489
01:23:46,439 --> 01:23:50,040
Speaker 1: that long like shot while he was on his knees

1490
01:23:50,040 --> 01:23:55,400
Speaker 1: begging for his life. Um Hernanda's Ortiz was in that

1491
01:23:55,600 --> 01:23:58,400
Speaker 1: mall because he was wiring money home to his family

1492
01:23:58,439 --> 01:24:02,080
Speaker 1: in Guatemala. And you know, we could do another entire

1493
01:24:02,160 --> 01:24:04,960
Speaker 1: story here about Guatemala and the United Fruit Company and

1494
01:24:05,120 --> 01:24:09,040
Speaker 1: these the u S baccus and genocides. But I think

1495
01:24:10,400 --> 01:24:16,080
Speaker 1: the thing about this story is that every atrocity is

1496
01:24:16,280 --> 01:24:22,240
Speaker 1: tied to every other atrocity, you know, and it creates

1497
01:24:22,280 --> 01:24:23,680
Speaker 1: this web of death that we sort of you know,

1498
01:24:23,720 --> 01:24:26,799
Speaker 1: we we euphemistically call it capitalism or society or reality.

1499
01:24:27,000 --> 01:24:29,680
Speaker 1: And the survivors of this are just flung from meat

1500
01:24:29,720 --> 01:24:32,080
Speaker 1: grinder to meet grinder, desperately looking for a new life

1501
01:24:32,120 --> 01:24:35,040
Speaker 1: in new country, and you know they get there, in

1502
01:24:35,080 --> 01:24:39,439
Speaker 1: the country just buries them instead. Yongfang was also you know,

1503
01:24:39,840 --> 01:24:42,280
Speaker 1: constantly sending money home to her family. When she arrives

1504
01:24:42,360 --> 01:24:44,639
Speaker 1: in the US. She and she's supporting like ten members

1505
01:24:44,680 --> 01:24:48,120
Speaker 1: of her family off of a salary. That is, like

1506
01:24:48,240 --> 01:24:50,960
Speaker 1: I mean, like she supporting to members her family off

1507
01:24:51,000 --> 01:24:55,880
Speaker 1: of the salary that you get from massage work. Right, Yeah,

1508
01:24:56,000 --> 01:24:58,320
Speaker 1: I think that this is like like again, I think

1509
01:24:58,320 --> 01:25:01,760
Speaker 1: something like people don't understand about the US is that like, yeah,

1510
01:25:01,800 --> 01:25:05,240
Speaker 1: American wages are low, but the dollar is so strong

1511
01:25:05,760 --> 01:25:10,840
Speaker 1: that even like like like small amounts of money that

1512
01:25:10,960 --> 01:25:13,400
Speaker 1: you can send, like small amounts of money in dollars

1513
01:25:13,439 --> 01:25:15,559
Speaker 1: you can send back home have this enormous economic impact.

1514
01:25:15,640 --> 01:25:18,719
Speaker 1: And there is there is an enormous like an absolutely

1515
01:25:18,840 --> 01:25:21,880
Speaker 1: enormous sort of network of of immigrants in the US

1516
01:25:22,040 --> 01:25:25,439
Speaker 1: who are here basically to work in the center business

1517
01:25:25,520 --> 01:25:27,000
Speaker 1: is back home. And this is I mean, this is

1518
01:25:27,080 --> 01:25:29,120
Speaker 1: like this is an enormous part of just how the

1519
01:25:29,320 --> 01:25:33,160
Speaker 1: economy the Philippines works because of yeah, a bunch of

1520
01:25:33,240 --> 01:25:39,439
Speaker 1: the just incredibly fucked up stuff that the marcos Is did. Um. Yeah.

1521
01:25:39,560 --> 01:25:45,559
Speaker 1: And you know, for for Asian women in particular, once

1522
01:25:45,640 --> 01:25:48,040
Speaker 1: they get here, they're often drawn to spot work because

1523
01:25:49,800 --> 01:25:51,479
Speaker 1: and there's there's a lot of reasons we'll get into

1524
01:25:51,520 --> 01:25:54,600
Speaker 1: in a second, but these spas, the spas are some

1525
01:25:54,720 --> 01:25:56,640
Speaker 1: such just like a microcosm of the US, Like the

1526
01:25:56,680 --> 01:25:59,599
Speaker 1: pay is good, and the people doing the work often

1527
01:25:59,680 --> 01:26:04,120
Speaker 1: like for it to other jobs that are accessible to immigrants. Well, okay,

1528
01:26:04,280 --> 01:26:07,120
Speaker 1: they're accessible to immgrants with their levels of political and

1529
01:26:07,200 --> 01:26:10,320
Speaker 1: economic capital and social connections, which is usually really not

1530
01:26:10,560 --> 01:26:14,320
Speaker 1: that large. But the problem is, you know, as as

1531
01:26:14,360 --> 01:26:17,400
Speaker 1: with everything in the US, it's also often dangerous, like

1532
01:26:17,640 --> 01:26:20,840
Speaker 1: the particular kind of sort of exposure and performance of

1533
01:26:20,880 --> 01:26:23,320
Speaker 1: femininity that you need to do. This leaves these workers

1534
01:26:23,479 --> 01:26:27,360
Speaker 1: incredibly vulnerable to stockers, and you know, they face sort

1535
01:26:27,360 --> 01:26:31,560
Speaker 1: of constant like racial massages abuse. UM Butterfly, which is

1536
01:26:31,840 --> 01:26:34,800
Speaker 1: a Toronto based sex worker group, released a report that

1537
01:26:34,880 --> 01:26:37,439
Speaker 1: said that half of all massage parlor workers reported some

1538
01:26:37,520 --> 01:26:41,320
Speaker 1: kind of threat to their safety at work. Jesus, Yeah,

1539
01:26:41,479 --> 01:26:45,080
Speaker 1: it's it's workplace is both incredibly dangerous. And then you know,

1540
01:26:45,160 --> 01:26:47,400
Speaker 1: and when when when when we're saying like threat to

1541
01:26:47,479 --> 01:26:51,120
Speaker 1: their workplace, that doesn't that's not even like that's not

1542
01:26:51,200 --> 01:26:54,120
Speaker 1: even counting the police. And if you've read anything about this,

1543
01:26:54,200 --> 01:26:57,200
Speaker 1: you'll read people saying things like massage parlors face constant

1544
01:26:57,240 --> 01:27:01,720
Speaker 1: police raids and this is true. But if anything, it

1545
01:27:01,800 --> 01:27:04,479
Speaker 1: understands how bad it actually is because like Asian massage

1546
01:27:04,520 --> 01:27:08,080
Speaker 1: parlers are subjected to two different kinds of police rates

1547
01:27:08,439 --> 01:27:10,640
Speaker 1: that just happened constantly. Um, I'm going to read a

1548
01:27:10,680 --> 01:27:13,760
Speaker 1: thing from BuzzFeed. Yeah, it's it's great, it's it's really fun.

1549
01:27:14,120 --> 01:27:19,120
Speaker 1: Fro from three thousand six of people arrested for unauthorized

1550
01:27:19,160 --> 01:27:21,799
Speaker 1: practice of a profession for any job requiring a license

1551
01:27:21,880 --> 01:27:25,439
Speaker 1: in New York. We're Asian and nine percent were women,

1552
01:27:25,439 --> 01:27:28,479
Speaker 1: according to data from the New York Division of Criminal

1553
01:27:29,160 --> 01:27:32,960
Speaker 1: Justice Services, and our prostitution is a misdemetor defense. Unauthorized

1554
01:27:32,960 --> 01:27:35,559
Speaker 1: practice of a profession, which is the charge that covers

1555
01:27:35,640 --> 01:27:39,720
Speaker 1: unlicensed massage along with roles like veterinary medicine, engineering is

1556
01:27:39,760 --> 01:27:42,360
Speaker 1: a felony that carries higher penalty, including up to four

1557
01:27:42,439 --> 01:27:45,720
Speaker 1: years of jail time. Now I'm no expert, but that's

1558
01:27:45,720 --> 01:27:50,360
Speaker 1: sure does sound like racism of that misogyny, because like, yeah,

1559
01:27:50,439 --> 01:27:52,439
Speaker 1: there's an argument to me, like if you're if you're

1560
01:27:52,640 --> 01:27:56,000
Speaker 1: moonlighting as a bridge engineer and you're not qualified, Yes,

1561
01:27:56,640 --> 01:28:00,960
Speaker 1: that's it really just calling me on on the pod,

1562
01:28:01,120 --> 01:28:06,320
Speaker 1: just right right in the garrison. We've agreed not to

1563
01:28:06,400 --> 01:28:08,760
Speaker 1: talk about all of those people who died when that

1564
01:28:08,840 --> 01:28:12,559
Speaker 1: bridge collapse that you built in Florida, on that university campus.

1565
01:28:12,920 --> 01:28:16,080
Speaker 1: The thing of value was lost. No, it was Florida.

1566
01:28:16,320 --> 01:28:18,680
Speaker 1: Like that's why that's why the d A is not

1567
01:28:18,840 --> 01:28:27,040
Speaker 1: coming after you. Yeah, US government not pressing charges. It's Florida.

1568
01:28:27,760 --> 01:28:32,080
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. So okay, back to back to back to

1569
01:28:32,160 --> 01:28:35,840
Speaker 1: the racism. It's like, okay, so, so you you have

1570
01:28:36,000 --> 01:28:40,360
Speaker 1: these raids that are like literally only like targeted against

1571
01:28:40,400 --> 01:28:44,600
Speaker 1: Asian massage workers and then on top and so that

1572
01:28:44,680 --> 01:28:46,560
Speaker 1: that's type one. And the second type of raid is

1573
01:28:46,600 --> 01:28:48,519
Speaker 1: that the other thing that happens at these places constantly

1574
01:28:48,680 --> 01:28:52,800
Speaker 1: are I are these anti prostitution and anti trafficking raids

1575
01:28:52,840 --> 01:28:57,720
Speaker 1: And I'm putting both of those in enormous quotations. You

1576
01:28:57,760 --> 01:28:59,639
Speaker 1: know this, Okay, I'm gonna gonna go on a side

1577
01:28:59,680 --> 01:29:02,920
Speaker 1: tangent rant here, which is that Like okay, so, like

1578
01:29:03,080 --> 01:29:05,640
Speaker 1: every single person who does reporting on this, and I

1579
01:29:05,640 --> 01:29:07,960
Speaker 1: don't know if this is like a journalistic standards thing,

1580
01:29:08,640 --> 01:29:10,439
Speaker 1: but like even the good reporting on this, they like

1581
01:29:10,560 --> 01:29:14,679
Speaker 1: almost always have like a section that says, I, oh,

1582
01:29:14,960 --> 01:29:21,160
Speaker 1: the the Georgia, like Georgia's like resources on sex Trafficking

1583
01:29:21,280 --> 01:29:26,360
Speaker 1: says that, uh salon Asian salons are a place where

1584
01:29:26,360 --> 01:29:29,559
Speaker 1: there's a bunch of sex trafficking. And it's like mm hm,

1585
01:29:30,200 --> 01:29:32,840
Speaker 1: really like this this, this is what you're putting in

1586
01:29:32,880 --> 01:29:36,080
Speaker 1: your article about a bunch of people getting murdered by

1587
01:29:36,200 --> 01:29:39,519
Speaker 1: a racist dude, Like this is the thing that that

1588
01:29:39,680 --> 01:29:42,439
Speaker 1: you're gonna put in here, and you know, and like

1589
01:29:42,560 --> 01:29:47,320
Speaker 1: this this is sort of like all of that stuff

1590
01:29:47,320 --> 01:29:50,240
Speaker 1: that I talked about, like last episode about Robert Aaron Long,

1591
01:29:50,320 --> 01:29:52,400
Speaker 1: like all of your gratification and the racism and the

1592
01:29:52,400 --> 01:29:55,160
Speaker 1: horror phobia and that like mixture of like desire and loathing.

1593
01:29:55,439 --> 01:29:59,640
Speaker 1: Like the cops have this, Like also the journalists who

1594
01:29:59,720 --> 01:30:02,519
Speaker 1: are think about this have this stuff, and the the

1595
01:30:02,800 --> 01:30:04,960
Speaker 1: people who don't are sort of like picking up on

1596
01:30:05,120 --> 01:30:06,880
Speaker 1: on the sort of like abbeyant racism. So you get

1597
01:30:06,880 --> 01:30:09,680
Speaker 1: all this coverage that's just focused on like trying to

1598
01:30:09,760 --> 01:30:11,760
Speaker 1: figure out if there was sex work going on here.

1599
01:30:12,000 --> 01:30:14,719
Speaker 1: And you know, and like I talked about the last episode,

1600
01:30:14,720 --> 01:30:19,920
Speaker 1: like this is really dangerous because exposing people, exposing these

1601
01:30:19,960 --> 01:30:22,920
Speaker 1: sites the police investigation means you get more of these stings.

1602
01:30:23,920 --> 01:30:26,439
Speaker 1: And you know, like we we we mentioned at the

1603
01:30:26,520 --> 01:30:30,519
Speaker 1: beginning that uh Dayong Fong like no no no one

1604
01:30:30,640 --> 01:30:32,280
Speaker 1: she knew showed up to her funeral. And the reason

1605
01:30:32,320 --> 01:30:33,920
Speaker 1: that no one she knew showed up to her funeral

1606
01:30:34,320 --> 01:30:36,639
Speaker 1: is that no one wanted to be at a place

1607
01:30:36,680 --> 01:30:39,720
Speaker 1: where they could potentially be cops, so they wouldn't be deported, right,

1608
01:30:41,600 --> 01:30:44,040
Speaker 1: How could anyone who knew her come to her funeral

1609
01:30:44,160 --> 01:30:48,679
Speaker 1: because that would be well and her her brother wanted

1610
01:30:48,720 --> 01:30:53,600
Speaker 1: to come, but the like travel to the US was

1611
01:30:54,200 --> 01:30:56,719
Speaker 1: expensive enough that he was just like, yeah, we can't

1612
01:30:56,760 --> 01:31:04,200
Speaker 1: do this, and you know, and like and I that

1613
01:31:04,840 --> 01:31:09,479
Speaker 1: these these anti trafficking, anti prostitution raids are so common

1614
01:31:09,680 --> 01:31:12,040
Speaker 1: that two of the Atlanta victims have been arrested as

1615
01:31:12,080 --> 01:31:14,920
Speaker 1: part of raids like before this, and even though both

1616
01:31:15,000 --> 01:31:18,599
Speaker 1: of them are innocent. Uh Sum Chung Park was convicted

1617
01:31:18,640 --> 01:31:23,000
Speaker 1: of criminal trust passing anyways, again, which is like one

1618
01:31:23,040 --> 01:31:24,960
Speaker 1: of the most insane things I've ever heard in my life,

1619
01:31:25,040 --> 01:31:28,439
Speaker 1: because she was arrested at the place where she worked

1620
01:31:28,720 --> 01:31:32,479
Speaker 1: and they convicted her of criminal trust passing. Because this

1621
01:31:32,720 --> 01:31:36,519
Speaker 1: entire system is made up of just like Robert are

1622
01:31:36,600 --> 01:31:39,439
Speaker 1: and long levels of of racism, but they have they

1623
01:31:39,479 --> 01:31:40,880
Speaker 1: have a legal outlet to do it so they don't

1624
01:31:40,920 --> 01:31:44,720
Speaker 1: have to just go murder people and and sometimes they

1625
01:31:44,760 --> 01:31:48,120
Speaker 1: still do. Yeah, definitely, yeah, I mean we talked about

1626
01:31:49,040 --> 01:31:52,559
Speaker 1: very generous with that sometimes, Garrison. Yeah, I mean there

1627
01:31:52,600 --> 01:31:56,120
Speaker 1: there there, there's a really horrific story of that. There

1628
01:31:56,200 --> 01:31:59,919
Speaker 1: was there was a Chinese sex worker who the NYPD

1629
01:32:00,400 --> 01:32:03,479
Speaker 1: like repeatedly attempted to force her at gunpoint to have

1630
01:32:03,640 --> 01:32:06,800
Speaker 1: sex with them, and she refused and they so and

1631
01:32:06,960 --> 01:32:10,800
Speaker 1: you know, because because she refused, the NYPD kept doing

1632
01:32:10,880 --> 01:32:14,080
Speaker 1: raids on her, and eventually she died because she jumped

1633
01:32:14,080 --> 01:32:17,280
Speaker 1: out a window trying to escape one of the raids. God.

1634
01:32:17,640 --> 01:32:22,120
Speaker 1: Because these people are just literal monsters. Um. Yeah. And

1635
01:32:22,760 --> 01:32:25,840
Speaker 1: you know Sun Chun Park, like, she's convicted of criminal

1636
01:32:25,880 --> 01:32:28,880
Speaker 1: trust passing and she gets, you know, the sort of

1637
01:32:28,920 --> 01:32:31,479
Speaker 1: particular American humiliation of being forced to wear an ankle

1638
01:32:31,560 --> 01:32:33,400
Speaker 1: monitor that you have to pay for around your house

1639
01:32:33,439 --> 01:32:43,559
Speaker 1: while being under house arrest. And I've I've talked about

1640
01:32:43,600 --> 01:32:46,760
Speaker 1: this with the journalists, but again, like there, this is

1641
01:32:46,840 --> 01:32:50,360
Speaker 1: an entire system full of robber aeron lungs. It's the judges,

1642
01:32:50,479 --> 01:32:53,080
Speaker 1: is the prosecutors, it's the social workers, is the journalists,

1643
01:32:53,120 --> 01:32:56,839
Speaker 1: it's the cops. And this is this is an incredible

1644
01:32:56,920 --> 01:33:01,519
Speaker 1: level of systemic state violence that makes these already tenuous

1645
01:33:01,600 --> 01:33:04,360
Speaker 1: migrant working communities even more vulnerable because you know, if

1646
01:33:04,400 --> 01:33:08,599
Speaker 1: someone's harassing them, they can't call the cops because if

1647
01:33:08,640 --> 01:33:10,120
Speaker 1: the cops show up, it's like, oh hey good, this

1648
01:33:10,200 --> 01:33:14,160
Speaker 1: is this is even worse than the harassments and that's

1649
01:33:14,240 --> 01:33:15,760
Speaker 1: I think where I want to want to end here

1650
01:33:15,800 --> 01:33:19,320
Speaker 1: today on with things that can actually be concretely done

1651
01:33:19,439 --> 01:33:22,559
Speaker 1: about this to help spot workers and sex workers. Um,

1652
01:33:22,840 --> 01:33:26,160
Speaker 1: there's two proposals that spot and sex workers have been backing,

1653
01:33:26,479 --> 01:33:29,479
Speaker 1: one of which is just ending the licensing licensing requirement

1654
01:33:29,479 --> 01:33:32,160
Speaker 1: from massages because it's it's literally only ever used to

1655
01:33:32,240 --> 01:33:36,200
Speaker 1: target Asian massage workers. Yeah, that seems that seems like

1656
01:33:36,280 --> 01:33:39,280
Speaker 1: a good call. Yeah, it's definitely not the law, but

1657
01:33:39,400 --> 01:33:41,600
Speaker 1: oh yeah, yeah, getting rid of its, getting rid of

1658
01:33:41,680 --> 01:33:45,320
Speaker 1: it clarify there. Yeah, yeah, I mean it's you know,

1659
01:33:45,400 --> 01:33:49,040
Speaker 1: like this, this is my this is my my, my

1660
01:33:49,080 --> 01:33:53,479
Speaker 1: most libertarian position is just being against like a lot

1661
01:33:53,600 --> 01:33:56,640
Speaker 1: of these licensing things, because what's next to license to

1662
01:33:56,720 --> 01:34:01,160
Speaker 1: make their own toaster. If it's a thing that people

1663
01:34:01,360 --> 01:34:05,080
Speaker 1: just do all the time, uh, and in fact cannot

1664
01:34:05,160 --> 01:34:08,639
Speaker 1: be stopped from doing under any circumstances, then it shouldn't

1665
01:34:08,680 --> 01:34:13,479
Speaker 1: require a license to do, like flying exact Garriet, like

1666
01:34:13,600 --> 01:34:18,160
Speaker 1: flying a plane, like performing surgery, you know, um, like

1667
01:34:18,360 --> 01:34:23,639
Speaker 1: being a police officer. Just make everybody everything all licenses. Sorry,

1668
01:34:23,720 --> 01:34:27,439
Speaker 1: I've lost the thread. It's okay, I mean, well I

1669
01:34:27,560 --> 01:34:29,560
Speaker 1: think that the actual thread here though, is that like

1670
01:34:31,360 --> 01:34:33,800
Speaker 1: you know, okay, so like yeah, on the one hand,

1671
01:34:33,880 --> 01:34:36,240
Speaker 1: in theory, it is good to have licenses that that

1672
01:34:36,600 --> 01:34:39,000
Speaker 1: you know, like have a way to tell who knows

1673
01:34:39,000 --> 01:34:41,240
Speaker 1: how to do something and who doesn't, Right, But the

1674
01:34:41,320 --> 01:34:45,599
Speaker 1: thing is that's that's not what does Yeah, yeah, it's

1675
01:34:46,080 --> 01:34:47,439
Speaker 1: and like and the thing that the state actually does

1676
01:34:47,520 --> 01:34:50,639
Speaker 1: even with licenses, like and they do this driver's licenses,

1677
01:34:50,760 --> 01:34:52,800
Speaker 1: Like even even with driver's licenses, which is the thing

1678
01:34:52,880 --> 01:34:55,320
Speaker 1: that like, yeah, like people should know how to drive

1679
01:34:55,360 --> 01:34:58,599
Speaker 1: before you put them behind like the four wheel death machine.

1680
01:34:59,439 --> 01:35:01,400
Speaker 1: Like what do they do with it? It's like, oh,

1681
01:35:01,439 --> 01:35:04,120
Speaker 1: they used to go after a documented immigrants because the

1682
01:35:04,200 --> 01:35:06,640
Speaker 1: state is just incredibly racist and that this is the

1683
01:35:06,720 --> 01:35:09,080
Speaker 1: thing that's happening with with these licenses is yeah, they

1684
01:35:09,160 --> 01:35:12,639
Speaker 1: just they just do racism with it. Well, it's it's

1685
01:35:12,680 --> 01:35:15,280
Speaker 1: why you can't have like the common sense. I would

1686
01:35:15,280 --> 01:35:17,200
Speaker 1: be like, okay, well we're gonna have sex workers, so

1687
01:35:17,280 --> 01:35:19,120
Speaker 1: there should be some sort of system to make sure

1688
01:35:19,200 --> 01:35:21,759
Speaker 1: that people are getting tested for things and that basically

1689
01:35:21,800 --> 01:35:24,759
Speaker 1: you know, certain safety procedures or that at least people

1690
01:35:24,880 --> 01:35:27,800
Speaker 1: know what safety procedures are being you know, used at

1691
01:35:27,840 --> 01:35:32,040
Speaker 1: the place or whatever. Um, But what It always boils

1692
01:35:32,120 --> 01:35:35,240
Speaker 1: down to, is uh, this is an excuse for police

1693
01:35:35,280 --> 01:35:38,880
Speaker 1: to funk with vulnerable people. Yeah. The thing that this

1694
01:35:39,000 --> 01:35:41,280
Speaker 1: brings us to is the second proposal, which is just

1695
01:35:41,360 --> 01:35:46,200
Speaker 1: decriminalizing sex work, Like, don't prosecute people for this, don't

1696
01:35:46,280 --> 01:35:51,640
Speaker 1: send the cops after them, just don't do it. Like

1697
01:35:51,880 --> 01:35:57,200
Speaker 1: it it only ever causes violence against people who are

1698
01:35:57,280 --> 01:36:01,200
Speaker 1: already the most marginalized people. It doesn't actually help against

1699
01:36:01,240 --> 01:36:04,840
Speaker 1: traficking either, in makes it makes pend against trafficking actually harder.

1700
01:36:05,360 --> 01:36:07,600
Speaker 1: People feel not able to talk about things when they

1701
01:36:07,600 --> 01:36:12,320
Speaker 1: see stuff that's questionable. It's it's I'm sure we can

1702
01:36:12,400 --> 01:36:15,680
Speaker 1: do more content content. Um, I'm sure we could do

1703
01:36:15,800 --> 01:36:19,439
Speaker 1: more stuff about sex work in the future. Um. But yeah,

1704
01:36:19,640 --> 01:36:23,760
Speaker 1: it really should be uh not a crime. Yeah. And

1705
01:36:24,000 --> 01:36:26,840
Speaker 1: I think this is something like you know, it's it.

1706
01:36:28,200 --> 01:36:31,200
Speaker 1: It reminds me a lot of like of of the

1707
01:36:31,240 --> 01:36:33,400
Speaker 1: anti trends stuff where it's like, okay, so you should

1708
01:36:33,479 --> 01:36:35,559
Speaker 1: care about the stuff because you should care about trends people.

1709
01:36:35,560 --> 01:36:37,439
Speaker 1: You should also care about the stuff because it affects

1710
01:36:37,439 --> 01:36:39,360
Speaker 1: people who are not trans and this this is this

1711
01:36:39,479 --> 01:36:43,080
Speaker 1: is this thing where these massage workers are like most

1712
01:36:43,160 --> 01:36:45,360
Speaker 1: of them are not sex workers. And it doesn't matter

1713
01:36:45,479 --> 01:36:49,160
Speaker 1: at all, and it's the splash over effects are hitting

1714
01:36:49,200 --> 01:36:54,599
Speaker 1: them too. And yeah, the consequence of that is eight

1715
01:36:54,680 --> 01:36:59,080
Speaker 1: people are dead. Yep. Yeah, go hope your local sex

1716
01:36:59,120 --> 01:37:01,240
Speaker 1: work or organization and go hope you help your local

1717
01:37:01,280 --> 01:37:04,439
Speaker 1: spot workers associations like get rid of this licensing stuff

1718
01:37:04,640 --> 01:37:10,160
Speaker 1: and fire for decriminalization because this, this this kind of

1719
01:37:10,200 --> 01:37:14,160
Speaker 1: ship doesn't have to happen, and we can. This is

1720
01:37:14,200 --> 01:37:17,720
Speaker 1: something that we actually can concretely do and when that

1721
01:37:17,800 --> 01:37:20,400
Speaker 1: will make an enormous number of people whose lives are

1722
01:37:21,560 --> 01:37:27,479
Speaker 1: incredibly precarious enormously better. Yep. Okay, so we have already

1723
01:37:27,600 --> 01:37:31,400
Speaker 1: seen before our eyes that you can do. You can

1724
01:37:31,479 --> 01:37:35,000
Speaker 1: do things that involves safety where the police are just useless.

1725
01:37:35,120 --> 01:37:37,680
Speaker 1: We we have seen we we we have seen. We

1726
01:37:37,760 --> 01:37:40,439
Speaker 1: have seen Zach. But what is his name, Zack? Yeah,

1727
01:37:40,560 --> 01:37:43,000
Speaker 1: Zack is his name. Yeah. Yeah, but look we we

1728
01:37:43,160 --> 01:37:46,120
Speaker 1: we we we have we have yeah, he rules. We

1729
01:37:46,200 --> 01:37:50,719
Speaker 1: have seen Bodega Zach outwit like outdo the entire police force,

1730
01:37:50,840 --> 01:37:53,679
Speaker 1: even after literally the guy called them the churn himself

1731
01:37:53,760 --> 01:37:56,439
Speaker 1: in and Bodega Zach still got there before they did

1732
01:37:57,640 --> 01:38:01,479
Speaker 1: the entire New York Police Department. This isn't himself in

1733
01:38:01,960 --> 01:38:07,200
Speaker 1: and left his wallet and good at the scene. Yeah,

1734
01:38:07,479 --> 01:38:08,960
Speaker 1: then again, this is this is this is this is

1735
01:38:09,040 --> 01:38:11,680
Speaker 1: this is a ten billion dollar police force. The thing

1736
01:38:11,760 --> 01:38:14,200
Speaker 1: that the thing that they mostly do is harass homeless

1737
01:38:14,240 --> 01:38:17,120
Speaker 1: people and sex workers. For the love of God, we

1738
01:38:17,200 --> 01:38:20,040
Speaker 1: don't need them. We could, like literally one man could

1739
01:38:20,040 --> 01:38:23,880
Speaker 1: do their job for them. H yeah, get get rid

1740
01:38:23,880 --> 01:38:30,439
Speaker 1: of them. Okay, yeah that sounds nice. Okay, well there

1741
01:38:30,520 --> 01:38:55,240
Speaker 1: we go. We did it. Happy episode. Everybody's an introduction.

1742
01:38:57,240 --> 01:39:03,240
Speaker 1: Good for you, we did it. Yeah, I love what

1743
01:39:03,400 --> 01:39:05,920
Speaker 1: what show is this? Uh? This is? This is it

1744
01:39:05,960 --> 01:39:09,360
Speaker 1: could happen here a show that is also currently in

1745
01:39:09,360 --> 01:39:12,479
Speaker 1: the middle of about seventeen thousand personnel disasters. But it's fine.

1746
01:39:13,400 --> 01:39:15,960
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, I am I am Christopher Wong and with

1747
01:39:16,080 --> 01:39:20,960
Speaker 1: me is Garrison. Hello, Hi, good morning or afternoon or evening,

1748
01:39:21,240 --> 01:39:24,519
Speaker 1: depending on when you're listening. And also Sophie, Hello, Hi.

1749
01:39:27,000 --> 01:39:29,160
Speaker 1: So we are we're going to talk about something that

1750
01:39:29,320 --> 01:39:34,400
Speaker 1: is I guess technically over. But it was extremely weird

1751
01:39:35,000 --> 01:39:37,720
Speaker 1: and did a lot of harm. And that is the

1752
01:39:38,120 --> 01:39:43,880
Speaker 1: very weird stuff that Texas General General Jesus hopefully not

1753
01:39:44,240 --> 01:39:49,040
Speaker 1: Texas Governor Greg Abbott, who had General the General of Texas.

1754
01:39:49,200 --> 01:39:52,519
Speaker 1: Greg at I mean, like you're kind of not wrong,

1755
01:39:52,800 --> 01:39:56,519
Speaker 1: but I he wished like that, he wishes, he wishes

1756
01:39:56,600 --> 01:39:59,160
Speaker 1: he was the general of Texas. I mean, I feel

1757
01:39:59,160 --> 01:40:00,439
Speaker 1: like that's me one of those things words like that.

1758
01:40:00,520 --> 01:40:02,120
Speaker 1: That's when we know the coup started, is when he

1759
01:40:02,439 --> 01:40:09,040
Speaker 1: promotes himself to general takes over Texas. So Greg Abbott

1760
01:40:09,040 --> 01:40:12,120
Speaker 1: is extremely mad, and he's actually mad because Biden finally

1761
01:40:12,240 --> 01:40:15,360
Speaker 1: decided to end one of like the absolute worst Trump

1762
01:40:15,400 --> 01:40:18,880
Speaker 1: era border policies, just called Title forty two, and it's

1763
01:40:19,400 --> 01:40:23,200
Speaker 1: for it was like nominally an anti pandemic measures, like

1764
01:40:23,600 --> 01:40:26,680
Speaker 1: the CDC. That's so I don't know why it took

1765
01:40:26,720 --> 01:40:29,200
Speaker 1: me like five seconds to remember the name of the CDC,

1766
01:40:29,560 --> 01:40:32,479
Speaker 1: the Central Defense Agency. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that one. Yeah.

1767
01:40:33,040 --> 01:40:34,920
Speaker 1: So it's normally supposed to be a thing where it's like, okay,

1768
01:40:34,960 --> 01:40:37,679
Speaker 1: you can you you cut off migrants from coming into

1769
01:40:37,680 --> 01:40:41,120
Speaker 1: the country because there's a risk of a pandemic. Now, okay,

1770
01:40:41,200 --> 01:40:43,840
Speaker 1: if if if you have lived the last two years,

1771
01:40:44,040 --> 01:40:46,280
Speaker 1: you know that the US just literally does not give

1772
01:40:46,320 --> 01:40:50,880
Speaker 1: a single ship about the pandemic at all, like ending yeah. Yeah,

1773
01:40:50,920 --> 01:40:52,680
Speaker 1: and so this this whole thing really has just been

1774
01:40:52,680 --> 01:40:58,000
Speaker 1: a justification to just boot out. This prevents every like

1775
01:40:58,240 --> 01:41:01,519
Speaker 1: asylum seeker, in refugee, an immigrant for getting into the country.

1776
01:41:01,520 --> 01:41:04,880
Speaker 1: And you know that you can tell this because the

1777
01:41:05,320 --> 01:41:08,040
Speaker 1: title forty two when it was originally invoked, didn't cover

1778
01:41:08,360 --> 01:41:10,800
Speaker 1: people who were like driving trucks across the border. Like

1779
01:41:10,840 --> 01:41:13,640
Speaker 1: he didn't cover economic activity of course not. Yeah, so

1780
01:41:13,760 --> 01:41:15,200
Speaker 1: it's it's it's just a way for the US to

1781
01:41:15,280 --> 01:41:18,160
Speaker 1: like not have asylum seekers. And Biden let this go

1782
01:41:18,360 --> 01:41:20,960
Speaker 1: for like another fucking year while he was in office,

1783
01:41:21,880 --> 01:41:25,840
Speaker 1: and so like it's like like late last monthy like

1784
01:41:25,880 --> 01:41:29,200
Speaker 1: he finally got rid of it. And you know, this

1785
01:41:29,360 --> 01:41:32,680
Speaker 1: means that like immigrants and refugees now once again have

1786
01:41:32,920 --> 01:41:35,880
Speaker 1: their legal right under both American and international law to

1787
01:41:36,000 --> 01:41:38,040
Speaker 1: a petition for asylum, which again the US doesn't give

1788
01:41:38,040 --> 01:41:40,280
Speaker 1: a shit about because you know you doesn't care about

1789
01:41:40,320 --> 01:41:44,439
Speaker 1: laws unless they do bad things. But this finally happens.

1790
01:41:45,000 --> 01:41:49,840
Speaker 1: And Greg Abbott, who is once again we must remind

1791
01:41:49,880 --> 01:41:53,160
Speaker 1: of you one the great habit, is running for election

1792
01:41:53,200 --> 01:41:57,240
Speaker 1: in November, and she's it's thus just literally running through

1793
01:41:57,320 --> 01:41:59,760
Speaker 1: the entire right wing like every single right wing scare

1794
01:41:59,760 --> 01:42:02,920
Speaker 1: we can possibly think of. Don't worry, Chris, don't worry

1795
01:42:02,960 --> 01:42:06,000
Speaker 1: Chris Beto will get him. I believe, I believe, I

1796
01:42:06,479 --> 01:42:13,200
Speaker 1: believe in Beto this time lose by like slide. You know. Well, Okay,

1797
01:42:13,200 --> 01:42:14,840
Speaker 1: so the thing that could stop him from this is

1798
01:42:14,960 --> 01:42:17,400
Speaker 1: Greg Abbott decided to do like two PR stunts, and

1799
01:42:17,520 --> 01:42:20,960
Speaker 1: one of them is he's taking busses of of immigris

1800
01:42:21,000 --> 01:42:22,760
Speaker 1: than asylum seekers and just busting them the d C

1801
01:42:23,560 --> 01:42:25,360
Speaker 1: and I want to talk about this for a little

1802
01:42:25,400 --> 01:42:28,680
Speaker 1: like a second, because like this is really shitty and

1803
01:42:28,840 --> 01:42:33,519
Speaker 1: that shouldn't be legal. It shouldn't be allowed to really traffick.

1804
01:42:33,720 --> 01:42:37,000
Speaker 1: You're trafficking people across the country for a political stunt.

1805
01:42:37,120 --> 01:42:40,400
Speaker 1: That's like that that should be allowed. Yeah, Like and

1806
01:42:40,520 --> 01:42:42,200
Speaker 1: like I think like everyone's like this book is like

1807
01:42:42,280 --> 01:42:44,479
Speaker 1: it is, but like the thing with American political sence

1808
01:42:44,560 --> 01:42:47,920
Speaker 1: is that real people get hurt constantly. Yeah, And we're

1809
01:42:47,920 --> 01:42:49,840
Speaker 1: gonna come back to that theme more in a second.

1810
01:42:49,840 --> 01:42:51,800
Speaker 1: As we talked about the second stunt that he did,

1811
01:42:51,920 --> 01:42:59,320
Speaker 1: which was so essentially what Abbott did. Is there are,

1812
01:42:59,520 --> 01:43:01,840
Speaker 1: in a norm just a number of trucks that cross

1813
01:43:02,360 --> 01:43:05,640
Speaker 1: the US Mexican border into Texas like every day, right,

1814
01:43:05,680 --> 01:43:08,479
Speaker 1: I mean, there's like there are individual bridges that are

1815
01:43:08,479 --> 01:43:12,760
Speaker 1: moving SI seventy billion dollars of just produce like every day,

1816
01:43:13,240 --> 01:43:15,559
Speaker 1: and so that produced when it when it comes into

1817
01:43:15,560 --> 01:43:17,240
Speaker 1: the US, it goes to a bunch of checks by

1818
01:43:17,280 --> 01:43:19,280
Speaker 1: the border patrol and stuff, and there's all these checks

1819
01:43:19,320 --> 01:43:23,360
Speaker 1: and this is this whole thing. But uh Abbott went

1820
01:43:23,479 --> 01:43:27,599
Speaker 1: on this incredibly bizarre rants about well, I mean it's

1821
01:43:27,640 --> 01:43:28,960
Speaker 1: not bizarre. I guess if you're right when we went

1822
01:43:29,000 --> 01:43:31,560
Speaker 1: on this rant about like the cartels and there's immigrants

1823
01:43:31,600 --> 01:43:36,920
Speaker 1: we need to stop them, and so he very scary. Yeah,

1824
01:43:37,320 --> 01:43:39,640
Speaker 1: it's really weird. Okay, So he's he's doing all these

1825
01:43:39,640 --> 01:43:41,840
Speaker 1: bird fairymongering and he's like, Okay, we need to stop

1826
01:43:41,880 --> 01:43:43,599
Speaker 1: the people from getting across the border. So we're gonna

1827
01:43:43,840 --> 01:43:47,599
Speaker 1: inspect all of these trucks, which again like they're already

1828
01:43:47,640 --> 01:43:50,280
Speaker 1: being inspected by the FEDS. Like this this is this

1829
01:43:50,400 --> 01:43:51,920
Speaker 1: is you know, this is where like the horrible ice

1830
01:43:51,960 --> 01:43:56,080
Speaker 1: budget is going. Right. So he he does this and

1831
01:43:56,400 --> 01:43:58,040
Speaker 1: he he calls in a bunch of just like the

1832
01:43:58,080 --> 01:44:00,160
Speaker 1: border patrol to just literally do all of the same

1833
01:44:00,280 --> 01:44:04,240
Speaker 1: checks again. And this has an enormous economic impact. Um,

1834
01:44:04,320 --> 01:44:06,559
Speaker 1: I'm going to read a quote from the American Statesman

1835
01:44:07,360 --> 01:44:10,200
Speaker 1: The delays have resulted in a six drop in commercial

1836
01:44:10,240 --> 01:44:12,919
Speaker 1: traffic at the border, according to ums U S Customs

1837
01:44:13,040 --> 01:44:16,080
Speaker 1: and Border Protections. The agency said the delays are a

1838
01:44:16,200 --> 01:44:20,120
Speaker 1: direct results of quote additional and unnecessary inspections being conducted

1839
01:44:20,479 --> 01:44:23,840
Speaker 1: at Abbott's request. I I do like that the same

1840
01:44:23,920 --> 01:44:28,679
Speaker 1: people who were shooting moms in Portland now inspecting produce

1841
01:44:28,800 --> 01:44:32,760
Speaker 1: at the Texas. It's it's pretty well. I mean, I

1842
01:44:32,800 --> 01:44:34,320
Speaker 1: think I think that there there there's an important thing

1843
01:44:34,360 --> 01:44:36,080
Speaker 1: to note here, writes like, so, why why are these

1844
01:44:36,120 --> 01:44:38,800
Speaker 1: the people who are like doing both these things? And

1845
01:44:38,840 --> 01:44:44,240
Speaker 1: the answer is that, like those organizations like that, the

1846
01:44:44,360 --> 01:44:46,200
Speaker 1: thing that they're designed to do is to protect the

1847
01:44:46,240 --> 01:44:49,000
Speaker 1: interests of American capital. And you know, so the interests

1848
01:44:49,000 --> 01:44:51,320
Speaker 1: of American capital are we need to move capital across that,

1849
01:44:51,400 --> 01:44:53,479
Speaker 1: we need to move goods across the border, and we

1850
01:44:53,600 --> 01:44:58,519
Speaker 1: need to just like absolutely obliterate like a bunch of

1851
01:44:58,600 --> 01:45:03,360
Speaker 1: teenagers who don't like us. That is pretty much their

1852
01:45:03,400 --> 01:45:06,080
Speaker 1: bit um. I mean, yeah, I know we've talked in

1853
01:45:06,120 --> 01:45:08,760
Speaker 1: the past about us like customers and worter and water

1854
01:45:08,800 --> 01:45:12,400
Speaker 1: protections and the weird the weird like agencies and weird

1855
01:45:12,479 --> 01:45:15,040
Speaker 1: kind of almost militias that they operate, and how they

1856
01:45:15,080 --> 01:45:17,280
Speaker 1: get deployed into certain areas if there you know, x

1857
01:45:17,560 --> 01:45:20,080
Speaker 1: x miles away from the border. Um, it would be

1858
01:45:20,160 --> 01:45:22,360
Speaker 1: worth talking about more in depth in the future, because

1859
01:45:22,360 --> 01:45:24,840
Speaker 1: I know Robert has done some historical background on them

1860
01:45:24,920 --> 01:45:27,920
Speaker 1: for Bastards. UM. But I think, yeah, that is something

1861
01:45:28,000 --> 01:45:30,439
Speaker 1: I would I would be down to talk more about. Yeah.

1862
01:45:30,439 --> 01:45:33,000
Speaker 1: I think they are a very bizarre agency. Yeah, they're

1863
01:45:33,080 --> 01:45:36,880
Speaker 1: very weird. They're also really not like in this story.

1864
01:45:36,960 --> 01:45:40,080
Speaker 1: They're basically really just sitting there being mad because it's

1865
01:45:40,120 --> 01:45:43,760
Speaker 1: taking longer at what they do. Yeah. And and you

1866
01:45:43,800 --> 01:45:47,320
Speaker 1: know because because again like these these actual these inspections

1867
01:45:47,360 --> 01:45:52,679
Speaker 1: are being run by like state troopers, and because because

1868
01:45:52,680 --> 01:45:55,479
Speaker 1: because Abbott has more direct control over stage. Yeah, because yeah,

1869
01:45:55,720 --> 01:45:58,559
Speaker 1: Abot direct power for them. And this means that like, okay,

1870
01:45:58,600 --> 01:46:00,280
Speaker 1: so you have your truck right, your rock has a

1871
01:46:00,320 --> 01:46:01,679
Speaker 1: bunch of produce in it, you would be it across

1872
01:46:01,720 --> 01:46:06,519
Speaker 1: the border. Um. This usually takes about two hours of

1873
01:46:06,760 --> 01:46:09,280
Speaker 1: you know, being like sitting there in a truck while

1874
01:46:09,560 --> 01:46:12,000
Speaker 1: you're stop your every once cargo gets inspected and stuff,

1875
01:46:12,520 --> 01:46:14,439
Speaker 1: which I will say the truckers don't even get paid

1876
01:46:14,479 --> 01:46:16,360
Speaker 1: for that. When they're waiting two hours. Yeah, and and

1877
01:46:16,560 --> 01:46:19,120
Speaker 1: and you know what would make that worse. Oh yeah,

1878
01:46:19,360 --> 01:46:23,160
Speaker 1: now it takes between ten and thirty hours. Because intentionally,

1879
01:46:23,479 --> 01:46:25,840
Speaker 1: on purpose, was like, okay, we're just we're gonna put

1880
01:46:25,840 --> 01:46:28,400
Speaker 1: six thousand like people total to do this whole thing.

1881
01:46:29,840 --> 01:46:32,840
Speaker 1: And so, you know, like hundreds of millions of dollars

1882
01:46:32,880 --> 01:46:35,400
Speaker 1: of produce like sins like onions and tomatoes and avocados

1883
01:46:35,400 --> 01:46:38,800
Speaker 1: are just sitting in these trucks, rotting in the Texas heat. Yep.

1884
01:46:39,840 --> 01:46:42,559
Speaker 1: Hopefully the trucks are refrigerated, but still, well, the trucks

1885
01:46:42,600 --> 01:46:45,439
Speaker 1: are refrigerated, but like the people in them, I'm sure

1886
01:46:45,479 --> 01:46:48,360
Speaker 1: the cabins are not. Yeah, I'm sure it gets mighty well.

1887
01:46:48,520 --> 01:46:51,400
Speaker 1: You know, I I do have some family who would truckers,

1888
01:46:51,479 --> 01:46:54,320
Speaker 1: and some of the cabins can't be nice. But still

1889
01:46:54,720 --> 01:46:57,200
Speaker 1: that's sitting for thirty hours without getting paid because you

1890
01:46:57,280 --> 01:47:01,240
Speaker 1: only get paid when you are moving um to oh

1891
01:47:01,560 --> 01:47:03,640
Speaker 1: uh not a great way to you know, run our

1892
01:47:03,800 --> 01:47:06,920
Speaker 1: entire economy. Yeah, I'm going to read a quote. I'm

1893
01:47:06,920 --> 01:47:10,360
Speaker 1: gonna read a suction from the paragraph of the Texas Tribune. Felix,

1894
01:47:10,439 --> 01:47:13,839
Speaker 1: a sixty year old Mexican trucker who was transporting tomatoes, onions,

1895
01:47:13,880 --> 01:47:16,599
Speaker 1: and avocados, waited about thirteen hours in line at the bridge.

1896
01:47:16,960 --> 01:47:19,200
Speaker 1: He has to be identified only by his first name

1897
01:47:19,280 --> 01:47:22,599
Speaker 1: for fear of retribution and targeted inspections from CPB officials.

1898
01:47:23,240 --> 01:47:25,280
Speaker 1: Hearing of the delays at the border, he packed water

1899
01:47:25,400 --> 01:47:28,000
Speaker 1: and food for a few days, but other truckers didn't

1900
01:47:28,040 --> 01:47:30,200
Speaker 1: come as prepared, and we're sitting in stand still traffic

1901
01:47:30,280 --> 01:47:32,920
Speaker 1: without anything to eat or drink. Felix said he was

1902
01:47:32,960 --> 01:47:35,120
Speaker 1: told by a CPB official that the agency would be

1903
01:47:35,160 --> 01:47:37,759
Speaker 1: putting portable bathrooms along the bridge for the gridlocked truckers,

1904
01:47:37,840 --> 01:47:41,000
Speaker 1: but he never saw them. Once Felix made it to

1905
01:47:41,000 --> 01:47:43,840
Speaker 1: the state troopers inspection point around nine pm, he said

1906
01:47:43,880 --> 01:47:45,800
Speaker 1: they didn't even peer into his truck, which had been

1907
01:47:45,840 --> 01:47:49,240
Speaker 1: sealed since Mexican authorities inspected about six hundred miles away

1908
01:47:49,280 --> 01:47:52,280
Speaker 1: in the state of Sinaloa. There's no possibility of bringing

1909
01:47:52,400 --> 01:47:55,360
Speaker 1: legal immigrants in the merchandise or in the cabin, he said,

1910
01:47:55,439 --> 01:47:58,479
Speaker 1: referencing one of Abbott's explanations for the inspections. I can't

1911
01:47:58,520 --> 01:48:00,600
Speaker 1: bring any illegal immigrants here from money because I know

1912
01:48:00,680 --> 01:48:02,920
Speaker 1: inspectors are going to discover them. It's not a thing here.

1913
01:48:02,960 --> 01:48:05,040
Speaker 1: I don't know what the politicians ideas are. I don't

1914
01:48:05,080 --> 01:48:07,679
Speaker 1: know what they're talking about. So that seems not good.

1915
01:48:09,479 --> 01:48:11,800
Speaker 1: It's it's really bad. And like again, like this is

1916
01:48:12,120 --> 01:48:15,000
Speaker 1: this whole thing is nonsense, Like that I didn't even

1917
01:48:15,240 --> 01:48:17,120
Speaker 1: I didn't even think about having to, you know, use

1918
01:48:17,160 --> 01:48:20,760
Speaker 1: the bathroom for hours. Yeah, and like do you think

1919
01:48:20,840 --> 01:48:23,760
Speaker 1: the thing with this is like this the backups are

1920
01:48:23,840 --> 01:48:26,519
Speaker 1: eight miles long, so like if you want to go

1921
01:48:26,640 --> 01:48:29,879
Speaker 1: to the bathroom, you have to walk for like miles

1922
01:48:30,479 --> 01:48:32,760
Speaker 1: depending depending on where you are in this backup. And

1923
01:48:33,600 --> 01:48:37,480
Speaker 1: you know, this is having like these just enormous horrifying

1924
01:48:37,720 --> 01:48:40,880
Speaker 1: because there's like these normous horrifying knock on effects. Um.

1925
01:48:41,600 --> 01:48:43,160
Speaker 1: Because you know, it's not that the truckers are really

1926
01:48:43,200 --> 01:48:45,960
Speaker 1: affected by this. There's a bunch of workers whose job

1927
01:48:46,000 --> 01:48:47,640
Speaker 1: it is, you know, it's to process these goods, right,

1928
01:48:47,760 --> 01:48:49,719
Speaker 1: take them out of trucks, put them into American trucks

1929
01:48:49,760 --> 01:48:52,479
Speaker 1: to like sort through the vegetables and figure out like

1930
01:48:52,840 --> 01:48:54,679
Speaker 1: which ones are good and which ones are not. And again,

1931
01:48:55,000 --> 01:48:59,360
Speaker 1: like just enormous amounts of just produce that is like

1932
01:48:59,560 --> 01:49:02,160
Speaker 1: fresh and good to eat. It's just being intentionally destroyed

1933
01:49:02,760 --> 01:49:04,439
Speaker 1: because it's being forced to sit at the border for

1934
01:49:04,479 --> 01:49:07,759
Speaker 1: this long. Uh, there's a bunch of these people whose

1935
01:49:07,760 --> 01:49:09,800
Speaker 1: whose job like who who are contract workers whose job

1936
01:49:09,800 --> 01:49:11,320
Speaker 1: it is to like go through this stuff, and they're

1937
01:49:11,320 --> 01:49:13,640
Speaker 1: all getting fired because they're like there's no work for

1938
01:49:13,720 --> 01:49:16,559
Speaker 1: them to do. Um. There's all of these people who

1939
01:49:17,640 --> 01:49:20,800
Speaker 1: like their their jobs and they run bodegoes and they

1940
01:49:20,880 --> 01:49:22,680
Speaker 1: run like like they were in restaurants. Did they run

1941
01:49:22,720 --> 01:49:24,519
Speaker 1: a buch of stuff on the border for these truckers

1942
01:49:24,560 --> 01:49:26,479
Speaker 1: and they also don't have any work and those people

1943
01:49:26,520 --> 01:49:28,680
Speaker 1: have to on a day by date like it's like

1944
01:49:28,880 --> 01:49:32,680
Speaker 1: I think it's per day to rent a terminal in

1945
01:49:33,240 --> 01:49:38,240
Speaker 1: like yeah, and they're making nothing, and it's it's it's horrified.

1946
01:49:38,360 --> 01:49:41,920
Speaker 1: There's all there's this's just enormous economic devastation that that

1947
01:49:42,120 --> 01:49:45,280
Speaker 1: that's been sort of like you know that that that

1948
01:49:45,400 --> 01:49:51,280
Speaker 1: that's been happening because of this and well, you know,

1949
01:49:52,680 --> 01:49:56,360
Speaker 1: you know what else reminds me of economic devastation, Ah,

1950
01:49:59,120 --> 01:50:03,240
Speaker 1: the fact that the fact that our paychecks are solely

1951
01:50:03,320 --> 01:50:06,840
Speaker 1: reliant on the products and services that support this podcast.

1952
01:50:08,120 --> 01:50:11,200
Speaker 1: It's true. Yeah, Well, we'll talk about the problems they're

1953
01:50:11,200 --> 01:50:17,240
Speaker 1: having in a second after this break. Yep, one second. Wow,

1954
01:50:17,479 --> 01:50:20,280
Speaker 1: that was that was a fast second that just that

1955
01:50:20,840 --> 01:50:24,559
Speaker 1: flew right by time is not real? Destroy the clocks

1956
01:50:24,600 --> 01:50:28,200
Speaker 1: the scientists sart the police, all right, if you press,

1957
01:50:30,360 --> 01:50:32,920
Speaker 1: if you press the if you press the thirty second

1958
01:50:32,920 --> 01:50:37,680
Speaker 1: button four times? Yes, yeah, real speedy. Now this is

1959
01:50:37,720 --> 01:50:40,519
Speaker 1: having other problems because, as you talked about the show,

1960
01:50:40,560 --> 01:50:43,320
Speaker 1: literally ad nausea, our supply chains are really bad. And

1961
01:50:43,400 --> 01:50:45,040
Speaker 1: it turns out, yeah that that does seem to be

1962
01:50:45,080 --> 01:50:48,240
Speaker 1: a recurring character on the pod. Is that supply chains uh,

1963
01:50:48,479 --> 01:50:51,599
Speaker 1: not the most stable thing we've invented. Yeah, and especially

1964
01:50:51,680 --> 01:50:54,559
Speaker 1: with especially with with with fruit and vegetables. Well, I mean,

1965
01:50:55,760 --> 01:50:57,040
Speaker 1: well we will be getting some of the other supply

1966
01:50:57,120 --> 01:50:58,479
Speaker 1: chains that are like fun because of this. But like

1967
01:50:59,240 --> 01:51:03,040
Speaker 1: Prudent VEGTA was in particular, like the way that we

1968
01:51:03,200 --> 01:51:06,120
Speaker 1: do them, they're they're designed to be in motion for

1969
01:51:06,200 --> 01:51:07,800
Speaker 1: like a very specific amount of time so that when

1970
01:51:07,800 --> 01:51:10,240
Speaker 1: they show up to you, they're right, yeah, yeah, you know,

1971
01:51:10,280 --> 01:51:12,320
Speaker 1: you add a few hours onto that everything falls apart.

1972
01:51:12,880 --> 01:51:15,960
Speaker 1: And this like I'm not sure if it happens because

1973
01:51:15,960 --> 01:51:18,519
Speaker 1: I'm not in Texas, but there was there were a

1974
01:51:18,560 --> 01:51:20,560
Speaker 1: bunch of articles are talking about like yeah, like avocados

1975
01:51:20,560 --> 01:51:22,680
Speaker 1: and Texas are gonna cost five more dollars, Like like

1976
01:51:22,760 --> 01:51:24,760
Speaker 1: a single avocados price is gonna increase by like five

1977
01:51:24,800 --> 01:51:27,720
Speaker 1: dollars over the weekend because like because it was just

1978
01:51:27,760 --> 01:51:30,240
Speaker 1: the enormous amount of produces that that's being destroyed here,

1979
01:51:30,400 --> 01:51:33,439
Speaker 1: and you know there there's there's a lot of other

1980
01:51:33,560 --> 01:51:37,200
Speaker 1: stuff going on here because American and Mexican supply chains

1981
01:51:37,240 --> 01:51:40,000
Speaker 1: are enormously integrated from now. I mean they've always been

1982
01:51:40,000 --> 01:51:42,799
Speaker 1: into good to some extent, but like particularly post NAFTA,

1983
01:51:43,200 --> 01:51:45,400
Speaker 1: there's a lot of like auto supply chains in particular

1984
01:51:45,960 --> 01:51:48,080
Speaker 1: that are that are tied to two plants in Mexico,

1985
01:51:48,080 --> 01:51:51,160
Speaker 1: and you actually this occasionally has like interesting effects, like

1986
01:51:51,360 --> 01:51:54,200
Speaker 1: Mexico's has a lot of auto strikes, and you get

1987
01:51:54,280 --> 01:51:56,960
Speaker 1: like you get these things where like people will like

1988
01:51:57,120 --> 01:52:00,599
Speaker 1: tuck messages into like auto parts and like send them

1989
01:52:00,640 --> 01:52:02,840
Speaker 1: to the US. People will open these messages from like

1990
01:52:03,240 --> 01:52:06,280
Speaker 1: a worker in Mexico too, Yeah you need And it's

1991
01:52:06,640 --> 01:52:08,960
Speaker 1: it's cool that there's lots of there's interesting stuff there,

1992
01:52:09,080 --> 01:52:11,519
Speaker 1: but this also means that like, yeah, so if those

1993
01:52:11,640 --> 01:52:13,840
Speaker 1: parts are moving across the border, those just in time

1994
01:52:13,880 --> 01:52:18,439
Speaker 1: production schedules are even more omega screwed than they've been

1995
01:52:18,920 --> 01:52:24,240
Speaker 1: already and so yeah, there's been a lot of sort

1996
01:52:24,240 --> 01:52:28,760
Speaker 1: of economics stuff that's been happening here. And you know,

1997
01:52:28,840 --> 01:52:31,240
Speaker 1: the other people who are getting just completely screwed by

1998
01:52:31,280 --> 01:52:35,720
Speaker 1: this are the are the Mexican truckers and so yeah

1999
01:52:35,920 --> 01:52:38,040
Speaker 1: and so so so this this this starts on April six,

2000
01:52:38,479 --> 01:52:42,320
Speaker 1: on Monday, April eleven, I the truckers are just like

2001
01:52:42,439 --> 01:52:46,920
Speaker 1: fun this and they start just completely blockading the largest

2002
01:52:46,960 --> 01:52:49,360
Speaker 1: border crossing between like this, it's on the Giant Bridge.

2003
01:52:49,400 --> 01:52:52,040
Speaker 1: They started they literally just blockade the bridge and but

2004
01:52:52,200 --> 01:52:57,400
Speaker 1: prevent any goods from from getting in. And this this

2005
01:52:57,640 --> 01:52:59,840
Speaker 1: has an enormous impact because again, like you know it

2006
01:53:00,080 --> 01:53:01,640
Speaker 1: it was going like yeah it was production was down

2007
01:53:01,680 --> 01:53:04,759
Speaker 1: by sixty percent, but that means still means are getting

2008
01:53:04,760 --> 01:53:07,000
Speaker 1: through and now you know, and bye bye bye. By

2009
01:53:07,040 --> 01:53:12,400
Speaker 1: the eleven it's just nothing. Um I do I do

2010
01:53:12,560 --> 01:53:14,559
Speaker 1: hope the one the one good thing that can come

2011
01:53:14,600 --> 01:53:19,200
Speaker 1: out of the whole Canada COVID isn't real protests, um,

2012
01:53:19,760 --> 01:53:23,000
Speaker 1: is that people have learned that blocking off supply chains

2013
01:53:23,040 --> 01:53:25,760
Speaker 1: it's a really effective way to do protest because you

2014
01:53:25,880 --> 01:53:29,080
Speaker 1: can stop the import of thousands and millions and billions

2015
01:53:29,120 --> 01:53:33,280
Speaker 1: of dollars of trade um pretty easily actually, and it

2016
01:53:33,320 --> 01:53:36,080
Speaker 1: would be cool if more people realize, Hey, obviously the

2017
01:53:36,160 --> 01:53:38,400
Speaker 1: COVID stuff they were talking about in the whole overthrowing

2018
01:53:38,400 --> 01:53:42,240
Speaker 1: the government part um to install a right wing dictator,

2019
01:53:42,479 --> 01:53:45,439
Speaker 1: that part's obviously bad, but some of their tactics were

2020
01:53:45,439 --> 01:53:48,880
Speaker 1: actually pretty interesting. Yeah, we're we're going to get more

2021
01:53:48,920 --> 01:53:53,760
Speaker 1: into that, uh like later, Yeah, I mean I will say, like,

2022
01:53:53,800 --> 01:53:55,240
Speaker 1: I think that the thing with the U S is that,

2023
01:53:55,360 --> 01:53:57,720
Speaker 1: like I think there's been a lot of focus on

2024
01:53:57,760 --> 01:54:00,920
Speaker 1: the American left on ports because yeah, there's a lot

2025
01:54:00,920 --> 01:54:01,960
Speaker 1: of reasons for that, but like, yeah, you can do

2026
01:54:02,080 --> 01:54:07,479
Speaker 1: the border crossings too, and the the Mexican rucker is

2027
01:54:07,520 --> 01:54:10,559
Speaker 1: really effective. I mean, okay, so that's this has been

2028
01:54:10,600 --> 01:54:12,479
Speaker 1: a thing where it's it's it's kind of hard to

2029
01:54:12,520 --> 01:54:16,479
Speaker 1: get information from. I saw a few like newspapers talking

2030
01:54:16,600 --> 01:54:23,160
Speaker 1: about um like cartel people like like attacking the blockaded,

2031
01:54:23,200 --> 01:54:25,000
Speaker 1: lighting trucks on fire to try to force goods to

2032
01:54:25,080 --> 01:54:29,800
Speaker 1: go through again, which it's possible. I I don't know, um,

2033
01:54:31,640 --> 01:54:36,040
Speaker 1: but this you know, once once there are like once

2034
01:54:36,120 --> 01:54:37,760
Speaker 1: the block like the border is completely block headed, this

2035
01:54:37,800 --> 01:54:41,840
Speaker 1: completely changes like the entire political situation because now, like

2036
01:54:42,080 --> 01:54:44,720
Speaker 1: you know, ab Abbot's been running this thing sort of

2037
01:54:44,800 --> 01:54:47,000
Speaker 1: as a political stunt and as this game he's playing

2038
01:54:47,320 --> 01:54:48,800
Speaker 1: with you know, I suppose he's trying to play a

2039
01:54:48,840 --> 01:54:51,760
Speaker 1: game with Biden, right, and he's like, Okay, well, yeah,

2040
01:54:51,920 --> 01:54:54,680
Speaker 1: you gotta decently about the border or whatever, like you

2041
01:54:54,760 --> 01:54:58,360
Speaker 1: know's he's been challenging Biden over like immigration bullshit. But

2042
01:54:58,840 --> 01:55:01,440
Speaker 1: you know, now now they're there's a third party involved,

2043
01:55:01,840 --> 01:55:05,200
Speaker 1: and that third party is Mexican truckers. And now and

2044
01:55:05,280 --> 01:55:07,400
Speaker 1: now Abbots not just in the it's like abbotts in

2045
01:55:07,440 --> 01:55:09,680
Speaker 1: a confrontation with the people that he needs to make

2046
01:55:09,720 --> 01:55:13,200
Speaker 1: the entire Texan economy run yep, And this starts going

2047
01:55:13,320 --> 01:55:15,360
Speaker 1: very badly for him. And the other thing that starts

2048
01:55:16,040 --> 01:55:19,520
Speaker 1: going very badly for him is that I it turns

2049
01:55:19,560 --> 01:55:22,600
Speaker 1: out if you shut down cross border trade, you really

2050
01:55:22,800 --> 01:55:27,440
Speaker 1: really piss off the bourgeoisie. Turns out, it turns out

2051
01:55:27,480 --> 01:55:30,160
Speaker 1: that will happen if you ain't careful. Yeah. Yeah, it's

2052
01:55:30,240 --> 01:55:32,400
Speaker 1: really interesting and you know, and and I think I

2053
01:55:32,400 --> 01:55:35,400
Speaker 1: should mention like stressed this, like they're piste off on

2054
01:55:35,480 --> 01:55:37,520
Speaker 1: both sides of the border, and like obviously you can

2055
01:55:37,560 --> 01:55:41,040
Speaker 1: talk about the ecents, which like, yeah, they're the same class.

2056
01:55:41,160 --> 01:55:43,440
Speaker 1: But like capitalists on both sides of the border start

2057
01:55:43,520 --> 01:55:45,720
Speaker 1: exerting their political pressure because they're I mean, they're losing

2058
01:55:45,800 --> 01:55:49,520
Speaker 1: enormous amounts of money off of this. That's what they do. Yeah,

2059
01:55:51,000 --> 01:55:53,560
Speaker 1: and you know, the way their ability to do capitalism

2060
01:55:53,720 --> 01:55:57,200
Speaker 1: as capitalists, they're going to be mad. Yeah, which again,

2061
01:55:57,320 --> 01:55:59,920
Speaker 1: you think you would think that the abbot would like

2062
01:56:00,120 --> 01:56:03,960
Speaker 1: get this, but he just he it seems to have

2063
01:56:04,080 --> 01:56:06,280
Speaker 1: not occurred to him that he was gonna piss off

2064
01:56:06,360 --> 01:56:08,360
Speaker 1: like either or like he he thinks he didn't care

2065
01:56:08,440 --> 01:56:10,760
Speaker 1: enough and thought it wouldn't matter, but like, no, it

2066
01:56:10,840 --> 01:56:14,200
Speaker 1: turns out like you know, one of the things that happens. Yeah,

2067
01:56:14,280 --> 01:56:16,560
Speaker 1: it's it's amazing, Like he's you know, like I mean,

2068
01:56:16,840 --> 01:56:18,200
Speaker 1: I think this is this is you know, I think

2069
01:56:18,200 --> 01:56:19,520
Speaker 1: this is this is sort of a symptom of like

2070
01:56:21,240 --> 01:56:24,120
Speaker 1: people lose like right wing politicians losing sight of what

2071
01:56:24,160 --> 01:56:26,600
Speaker 1: their actual basis because like this is all this is

2072
01:56:26,600 --> 01:56:30,280
Speaker 1: all supposed to be like campaign trail feeding the anti

2073
01:56:30,280 --> 01:56:33,720
Speaker 1: immigrant base. But like, you know, you you are a

2074
01:56:33,840 --> 01:56:37,680
Speaker 1: politician in the US, Your actual constituency is the capitalists,

2075
01:56:38,080 --> 01:56:40,320
Speaker 1: and like do you have an actual job? And let's

2076
01:56:40,560 --> 01:56:43,480
Speaker 1: make the economy keep going and keeping people in power

2077
01:56:43,680 --> 01:56:47,120
Speaker 1: to have all the power, like you're not just like that.

2078
01:56:47,320 --> 01:56:49,000
Speaker 1: That's one interesting thing that Trump was kind of one

2079
01:56:49,040 --> 01:56:52,360
Speaker 1: of the first big um indicators for which is like

2080
01:56:52,680 --> 01:56:55,600
Speaker 1: a politician now is just the endless cycle of campaigning

2081
01:56:55,920 --> 01:56:58,040
Speaker 1: and they don't actually have a job. It's just always

2082
01:56:58,080 --> 01:57:02,680
Speaker 1: campaigning and that it's always campaigning. Uh, and they're like, oh,

2083
01:57:02,920 --> 01:57:04,560
Speaker 1: I guess I should do my actual job that I

2084
01:57:04,640 --> 01:57:07,200
Speaker 1: was elected for or I could just do more rallies

2085
01:57:07,320 --> 01:57:09,920
Speaker 1: and that seems like it would be less work. Yeah. Well,

2086
01:57:10,000 --> 01:57:12,440
Speaker 1: and I think I think what Trump was like there

2087
01:57:12,480 --> 01:57:14,360
Speaker 1: was those things out to which the bureaucracy kept functioning,

2088
01:57:14,400 --> 01:57:16,400
Speaker 1: and you know, like like he like Trump got Trump

2089
01:57:16,440 --> 01:57:18,880
Speaker 1: got the tax cut right, and like he didn't really

2090
01:57:18,920 --> 01:57:20,560
Speaker 1: start getting in trouble with them until he started doing

2091
01:57:20,560 --> 01:57:22,360
Speaker 1: the anti China stuff, which was sort of a disaster

2092
01:57:22,480 --> 01:57:24,120
Speaker 1: because there was a lot of people who turned out

2093
01:57:24,240 --> 01:57:27,320
Speaker 1: like need those trade connections to make money. And you

2094
01:57:27,360 --> 01:57:29,120
Speaker 1: saw like and like it was weird. It was a

2095
01:57:29,200 --> 01:57:30,760
Speaker 1: very weird thing. Like you started to see even some

2096
01:57:30,840 --> 01:57:33,720
Speaker 1: of his like like domestic like small business base. I

2097
01:57:33,760 --> 01:57:35,440
Speaker 1: started to get really mad at him because he's putting

2098
01:57:35,440 --> 01:57:37,000
Speaker 1: all these sanctions up and it's like, oh, hey, look,

2099
01:57:37,040 --> 01:57:39,520
Speaker 1: all these sanctions mean that all these people who are

2100
01:57:39,880 --> 01:57:42,320
Speaker 1: reliant on Chinese supply chains have to pay this stuff.

2101
01:57:43,400 --> 01:57:46,720
Speaker 1: And an Abbott Abbott has like done this in microcosm,

2102
01:57:47,040 --> 01:57:49,400
Speaker 1: and like these these people like the star, they start

2103
01:57:49,440 --> 01:57:50,960
Speaker 1: going to the press. Um, I'm going to read a

2104
01:57:51,000 --> 01:57:55,840
Speaker 1: quote from Bloomberg. Uh. Some retailers, particularly those in the

2105
01:57:55,920 --> 01:57:58,840
Speaker 1: grocery industry, have experienced supply chain delays resulting from the

2106
01:57:58,920 --> 01:58:02,360
Speaker 1: extended wait times a lot Texas Mexico border. John McCord,

2107
01:58:02,600 --> 01:58:06,960
Speaker 1: the executive director of Texas Retailers Association, wrote in an email, so, like,

2108
01:58:08,000 --> 01:58:11,480
Speaker 1: you know these are like like the Texas Retail Association

2109
01:58:11,760 --> 01:58:15,120
Speaker 1: is like this is like the most republican solidly institution

2110
01:58:15,720 --> 01:58:18,960
Speaker 1: in the country and and you can watch them over time,

2111
01:58:19,040 --> 01:58:23,080
Speaker 1: like these people are getting really mad. Like one of

2112
01:58:23,240 --> 01:58:28,720
Speaker 1: I I was like, like what if Abbot's like I

2113
01:58:28,880 --> 01:58:31,840
Speaker 1: get the exact title, like what one of abbots like secretaries,

2114
01:58:33,440 --> 01:58:35,040
Speaker 1: like they're look at the secretary or something. One of

2115
01:58:35,120 --> 01:58:38,320
Speaker 1: the like economic bureaus was like, yeah, man, Alvaca is

2116
01:58:38,400 --> 01:58:43,520
Speaker 1: gonna cost five more dollars, And you know, you know

2117
01:58:44,280 --> 01:58:47,360
Speaker 1: this really hits me hard. Because everyone knows it's about me.

2118
01:58:47,440 --> 01:58:50,160
Speaker 1: I care a lot about retail. UM. Retails like my

2119
01:58:50,320 --> 01:58:54,200
Speaker 1: one of my big core of personality traits UM. And

2120
01:58:54,840 --> 01:58:56,960
Speaker 1: you know who else wants you to care about retail?

2121
01:58:57,360 --> 01:58:59,840
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness is that the wash Upton State of

2122
01:59:00,640 --> 01:59:03,320
Speaker 1: That is right, Sophie, it's the Washington State Patrol. Are

2123
01:59:03,560 --> 01:59:07,720
Speaker 1: are are good friends? Um? So here here is some

2124
01:59:07,920 --> 01:59:11,200
Speaker 1: here's some messages about about how you can improve your

2125
01:59:11,280 --> 01:59:15,160
Speaker 1: retail decisions. Okay, I I can't find this George Bush

2126
01:59:15,240 --> 01:59:16,520
Speaker 1: quote that I was going to use as a bit,

2127
01:59:16,840 --> 01:59:20,760
Speaker 1: so instead of that, we will return to this. And

2128
01:59:21,760 --> 01:59:23,200
Speaker 1: you know, and one one thing I think we should

2129
01:59:23,200 --> 01:59:27,840
Speaker 1: also mention is if you ran into this on Twitter, um,

2130
01:59:29,160 --> 01:59:32,000
Speaker 1: you will see a lot of videos of people like

2131
01:59:32,120 --> 01:59:34,520
Speaker 1: Democrats like standing at the border and pointing at the

2132
01:59:34,560 --> 01:59:38,240
Speaker 1: trucks and going, uh, this is this. This is abbot

2133
01:59:38,280 --> 01:59:41,040
Speaker 1: attempting to like make inflation to get worse by sabotaging

2134
01:59:41,040 --> 01:59:49,800
Speaker 1: the economy. Cringe and like cringe cringe moments. Yeah, Like okay,

2135
01:59:49,880 --> 01:59:56,000
Speaker 1: Like I cannot rule out that this was like a

2136
01:59:56,240 --> 01:59:58,320
Speaker 1: part of what he wanted to do, but that's not

2137
01:59:58,560 --> 02:00:01,880
Speaker 1: really why he's doing this. Like this, this is this

2138
02:00:02,080 --> 02:00:05,040
Speaker 1: is like mostly and I some people talking about like, oh,

2139
02:00:05,120 --> 02:00:08,680
Speaker 1: this is like the trucker's buckage and Chile, and I'm like, no, no,

2140
02:00:08,840 --> 02:00:12,600
Speaker 1: it's not at all, like like yeah, yeah, yeah, like yes,

2141
02:00:13,040 --> 02:00:14,520
Speaker 1: Chile has a bunch of right had I had a

2142
02:00:14,520 --> 02:00:16,640
Speaker 1: bunch of right wing anti communist truckers unions that tried

2143
02:00:16,680 --> 02:00:18,520
Speaker 1: to shut down the government. But like, that's not what's

2144
02:00:18,520 --> 02:00:22,000
Speaker 1: happening here. This is the state and Abbott trying to

2145
02:00:22,080 --> 02:00:24,160
Speaker 1: do this is like an immigration pr thing like this

2146
02:00:24,280 --> 02:00:28,440
Speaker 1: isn't like he's not actually he's not actually trying to

2147
02:00:28,480 --> 02:00:32,360
Speaker 1: destroy the government, because the the only way you can

2148
02:00:32,440 --> 02:00:36,160
Speaker 1: get stuff like that is if like is is it

2149
02:00:36,240 --> 02:00:38,720
Speaker 1: the capitalist classes like genuinely afraid that they're about to

2150
02:00:38,760 --> 02:00:41,640
Speaker 1: get like like wiped out by communists And it turns

2151
02:00:41,680 --> 02:00:45,800
Speaker 1: out that is not about to unize the entire US.

2152
02:00:46,280 --> 02:00:49,320
Speaker 1: I don't think that's actually a looming threat at the moment. No,

2153
02:00:50,360 --> 02:00:52,040
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's like no, it's like it's it's not

2154
02:00:52,200 --> 02:00:55,480
Speaker 1: it's not really about that, like it's it's it's it's

2155
02:00:55,520 --> 02:00:57,680
Speaker 1: mostly about this sort of this sort of like border

2156
02:00:57,760 --> 02:01:02,680
Speaker 1: game that the Communis are coming free of off Picados. Well,

2157
02:01:03,080 --> 02:01:04,880
Speaker 1: this is sort of this is the interesting thing here,

2158
02:01:04,920 --> 02:01:08,680
Speaker 1: because it's like you have this really weird scenario where

2159
02:01:08,720 --> 02:01:11,680
Speaker 1: like it's it's it's the right wing governor like shutting

2160
02:01:11,720 --> 02:01:14,880
Speaker 1: down the flow of commodities, and like the liberals are like,

2161
02:01:14,960 --> 02:01:18,080
Speaker 1: we must restore the flow of commodities, and the like,

2162
02:01:18,120 --> 02:01:20,440
Speaker 1: we must restore the flow of commodities, and like even

2163
02:01:20,480 --> 02:01:23,400
Speaker 1: the cartels or something extential, like come on, like we

2164
02:01:23,480 --> 02:01:27,920
Speaker 1: all we all need the border open. Uh. It really,

2165
02:01:28,760 --> 02:01:33,160
Speaker 1: it really does just showcase the entire bit. Yeah, you know,

2166
02:01:33,240 --> 02:01:35,640
Speaker 1: but I mean, like we've been talking a lot about

2167
02:01:35,640 --> 02:01:38,880
Speaker 1: the human cost of this, and the reason this stuff

2168
02:01:38,960 --> 02:01:41,920
Speaker 1: works is because American politics is literally just a machine

2169
02:01:41,960 --> 02:01:44,200
Speaker 1: that turns human suffering into stories and then turns those

2170
02:01:44,240 --> 02:01:48,800
Speaker 1: stories into percentage points at the polls. And that's Abbot's

2171
02:01:49,280 --> 02:01:53,160
Speaker 1: entire weight. Am I getting him confused with no Greg

2172
02:01:53,160 --> 02:01:56,560
Speaker 1: Abbots the governor? I momentarily got him confused with the

2173
02:01:56,720 --> 02:02:02,360
Speaker 1: UK guy Tony Emmett ris so bad in very similar ways. Yeah,

2174
02:02:02,360 --> 02:02:04,800
Speaker 1: but I think I think we're allowed to have two

2175
02:02:04,880 --> 02:02:07,840
Speaker 1: bad Abbots. Yeah. I thought there's kind of Australia too,

2176
02:02:08,320 --> 02:02:14,280
Speaker 1: But well, the bad applets are multiplied. To get on this.

2177
02:02:14,720 --> 02:02:16,440
Speaker 1: We need we need to deal with the anglos theory

2178
02:02:16,440 --> 02:02:18,680
Speaker 1: before they produce the fourth produced the fourth one when

2179
02:02:18,720 --> 02:02:21,120
Speaker 1: we get the four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. That would

2180
02:02:21,120 --> 02:02:26,480
Speaker 1: be funny if you just have four Abbots bringing the apocalypse. Yeah,

2181
02:02:26,760 --> 02:02:29,400
Speaker 1: But I think I think that the thing that's important

2182
02:02:29,400 --> 02:02:31,840
Speaker 1: to understand about like about Abbott is like that that

2183
02:02:32,000 --> 02:02:35,160
Speaker 1: everything that Abbott does is just about inflicting suffering on

2184
02:02:35,280 --> 02:02:37,920
Speaker 1: people and trying to use that to do polls. Right,

2185
02:02:38,000 --> 02:02:40,040
Speaker 1: Like he he has genuine right wing beliefs, but like

2186
02:02:40,520 --> 02:02:43,200
Speaker 1: the timing of everything that he does, that's what all

2187
02:02:43,200 --> 02:02:45,320
Speaker 1: of his that's that's that's what all has had anti

2188
02:02:45,360 --> 02:02:48,480
Speaker 1: trans stuff is is that he couldn't beat his primary challenger,

2189
02:02:48,520 --> 02:02:50,920
Speaker 1: who was trying to campaign a little bit fur them

2190
02:02:50,920 --> 02:02:54,000
Speaker 1: to write than Abbott was. Yeah, and this is the

2191
02:02:54,080 --> 02:02:58,880
Speaker 1: thing where like politicians are allowed to play games with

2192
02:02:58,960 --> 02:03:03,840
Speaker 1: all people's lives, that that's their job. But they're allowed

2193
02:03:03,880 --> 02:03:06,760
Speaker 1: to do this up until the exact moment at which

2194
02:03:06,800 --> 02:03:11,200
Speaker 1: those real people are the bourgeoisie and the moment this

2195
02:03:11,280 --> 02:03:12,680
Speaker 1: is this the thing that Abbott is learning is that

2196
02:03:12,720 --> 02:03:14,480
Speaker 1: you can do this kind of stunts all you want,

2197
02:03:14,600 --> 02:03:16,560
Speaker 1: Like you can you can like you can shoot every

2198
02:03:16,640 --> 02:03:19,880
Speaker 1: trans kid, you can like I don't know, like you

2199
02:03:19,960 --> 02:03:24,040
Speaker 1: can you can ban like every school from like saying

2200
02:03:24,120 --> 02:03:27,840
Speaker 1: the word race, but you can't funk with the bourgeoisie.

2201
02:03:28,600 --> 02:03:30,840
Speaker 1: And you know this, this is this, this is the

2202
02:03:30,880 --> 02:03:33,440
Speaker 1: problem that he has is bye by like by like

2203
02:03:33,520 --> 02:03:36,720
Speaker 1: the middle of last week. He has the like the

2204
02:03:36,840 --> 02:03:39,360
Speaker 1: ruling classes turning on him. The truckers are blockading the

2205
02:03:39,400 --> 02:03:43,440
Speaker 1: bridges that preventing all travel, and Abbott is like basically

2206
02:03:43,520 --> 02:03:46,720
Speaker 1: scrambling to find a way out. And the thing that

2207
02:03:46,760 --> 02:03:49,280
Speaker 1: he does to do this is he like he goes

2208
02:03:49,320 --> 02:03:51,800
Speaker 1: to a bunch of Mexican governors who who are like

2209
02:03:51,880 --> 02:03:55,200
Speaker 1: that the governors of border states. And these governors had

2210
02:03:55,240 --> 02:03:57,400
Speaker 1: like sent him letters being like hey, like what are

2211
02:03:57,440 --> 02:04:01,000
Speaker 1: you doing, Like we need like we we we need

2212
02:04:01,040 --> 02:04:04,160
Speaker 1: our economies to function. Can can you can you actually

2213
02:04:04,280 --> 02:04:08,160
Speaker 1: do this? And you know, so he starts doing these

2214
02:04:08,200 --> 02:04:10,760
Speaker 1: negotiations with him where he's like, well, okay, if you

2215
02:04:10,840 --> 02:04:13,880
Speaker 1: guys like inspect all of these trucks or whatever before

2216
02:04:13,920 --> 02:04:16,120
Speaker 1: and you ensure that there's no immigrants and then where

2217
02:04:16,160 --> 02:04:18,520
Speaker 1: whatever before they get here, like we'll reopen the borders.

2218
02:04:19,560 --> 02:04:21,840
Speaker 1: And you know, so they do this, and I think

2219
02:04:23,120 --> 02:04:25,640
Speaker 1: there's a couple of interesting things about this one is

2220
02:04:25,760 --> 02:04:27,920
Speaker 1: that most of these I think there's one guy who's

2221
02:04:28,000 --> 02:04:30,240
Speaker 1: from the p r I, but like almost all of

2222
02:04:30,280 --> 02:04:32,120
Speaker 1: these governors are from the p A N, which is

2223
02:04:32,160 --> 02:04:37,160
Speaker 1: Mexico's like far right wing party, and like these guys,

2224
02:04:37,720 --> 02:04:41,240
Speaker 1: these guys are also like hard right, like we're on

2225
02:04:41,360 --> 02:04:43,640
Speaker 1: drug hard liners, you hate immigrants and and this this

2226
02:04:43,720 --> 02:04:45,200
Speaker 1: has been another big part of how the sort of

2227
02:04:45,240 --> 02:04:47,560
Speaker 1: border machine works, which is that like, yeah, on the

2228
02:04:47,640 --> 02:04:49,120
Speaker 1: one hand, you have you have Abbo and you have

2229
02:04:49,200 --> 02:04:50,840
Speaker 1: like Texas, so you have just the US government like

2230
02:04:50,880 --> 02:04:54,000
Speaker 1: projecting its power like into Mexico, which is you know,

2231
02:04:54,400 --> 02:04:56,560
Speaker 1: another big part of what this is. But the other

2232
02:04:56,600 --> 02:04:59,720
Speaker 1: part of it is has been the US essentially outsourcing

2233
02:05:00,000 --> 02:05:02,400
Speaker 1: it's it's border regime and border policy just in like

2234
02:05:02,520 --> 02:05:05,160
Speaker 1: to Mexico. And so you get a lot of there.

2235
02:05:05,160 --> 02:05:07,280
Speaker 1: There's been a lot in the last especially to dn

2236
02:05:07,320 --> 02:05:10,120
Speaker 1: Trump administration. Uh, I mean it goes back much further

2237
02:05:10,160 --> 02:05:12,800
Speaker 1: than that, but like in in the last like five

2238
02:05:12,920 --> 02:05:14,800
Speaker 1: years have been a lot of really egregious examples of

2239
02:05:14,960 --> 02:05:18,000
Speaker 1: just like border patrol ship but by the Mexican police,

2240
02:05:18,080 --> 02:05:20,560
Speaker 1: because it turns out there's also a bunch of people

2241
02:05:20,560 --> 02:05:23,800
Speaker 1: in Mexico who fucking hates Central American refugees and be

2242
02:05:24,400 --> 02:05:28,480
Speaker 1: uh the police or the police literally everywhere. And yeah,

2243
02:05:28,640 --> 02:05:30,000
Speaker 1: and this this also for example, like this this is

2244
02:05:30,040 --> 02:05:31,320
Speaker 1: how this is how a lot of the border regime

2245
02:05:31,360 --> 02:05:35,000
Speaker 1: stuff works in um, in Europe, front ACKs of the

2246
02:05:35,080 --> 02:05:38,720
Speaker 1: European border like thing makes you to do like makes

2247
02:05:38,920 --> 02:05:45,120
Speaker 1: like basically just negotiates with like literally every like I

2248
02:05:45,160 --> 02:05:46,880
Speaker 1: don't even know what you call them, like border state,

2249
02:05:46,960 --> 02:05:50,720
Speaker 1: I guess in Africa to ensure that like refugees coming

2250
02:05:50,760 --> 02:05:53,560
Speaker 1: up to North Africa like don't ever get to Europe.

2251
02:05:54,120 --> 02:05:56,400
Speaker 1: And like this is that they make deals with Gadaffi,

2252
02:05:56,480 --> 02:06:00,400
Speaker 1: they made deals with the people who came after Gadaffi. Um, yeah,

2253
02:06:00,480 --> 02:06:04,200
Speaker 1: there's the border system is horrible and this is sort

2254
02:06:04,240 --> 02:06:08,440
Speaker 1: of the border system like working as intended. Now, the

2255
02:06:08,920 --> 02:06:12,240
Speaker 1: other thing that we should mention is that like, okay,

2256
02:06:12,320 --> 02:06:16,320
Speaker 1: so they're they're stopping and like supposedly searching all of

2257
02:06:16,400 --> 02:06:19,720
Speaker 1: these trucks and they find literally nothing the entire time,

2258
02:06:21,440 --> 02:06:23,400
Speaker 1: because like there's there's you know, there's ever anything there.

2259
02:06:23,440 --> 02:06:25,240
Speaker 1: But you get all these press conferences they were like, well, yeah,

2260
02:06:25,240 --> 02:06:27,000
Speaker 1: of course there is nothing. It's because the cartels were

2261
02:06:27,040 --> 02:06:31,120
Speaker 1: tipped off. Of the raid because we did Presston conferences

2262
02:06:31,240 --> 02:06:34,920
Speaker 1: about it, and that's why they announced. We announced the

2263
02:06:34,960 --> 02:06:36,440
Speaker 1: thing that we were gonna do. So it gave him

2264
02:06:36,480 --> 02:06:43,160
Speaker 1: a chance to smartest Wow whoa. Yeah, So that that

2265
02:06:43,360 --> 02:06:46,600
Speaker 1: that that's been fun um And the last thing I

2266
02:06:46,600 --> 02:06:48,040
Speaker 1: wanna talk about, Yeah, this was part of what we

2267
02:06:48,160 --> 02:06:50,280
Speaker 1: were talking about earlier, which is that like, yeah, this

2268
02:06:50,400 --> 02:06:51,960
Speaker 1: is the second time this year that we've seen right

2269
02:06:52,000 --> 02:06:54,600
Speaker 1: wingers like block off a border for political reasons. And

2270
02:06:54,600 --> 02:06:57,920
Speaker 1: I think there's a few interesting things here. Um. One

2271
02:06:58,200 --> 02:06:59,640
Speaker 1: is that this is the kind of stuff that from

2272
02:06:59,720 --> 02:07:03,080
Speaker 1: like basically from the start of occupy and even before

2273
02:07:03,120 --> 02:07:04,960
Speaker 1: then until like the Bernie campaign. This is like the

2274
02:07:05,080 --> 02:07:07,240
Speaker 1: core of like what Marxists we're thinking about in the US,

2275
02:07:07,240 --> 02:07:09,760
Speaker 1: and also anarchists or something sent like if if you

2276
02:07:09,800 --> 02:07:11,720
Speaker 1: go and read anything from that period, like it's all

2277
02:07:11,720 --> 02:07:13,960
Speaker 1: about logistics and kinter logistics and how you can like

2278
02:07:14,040 --> 02:07:15,680
Speaker 1: disrupt them and whether or not we should try to

2279
02:07:15,720 --> 02:07:18,960
Speaker 1: take control of logistics. And you know, and I think

2280
02:07:18,960 --> 02:07:23,320
Speaker 1: you see here like like attacking logistics is a very

2281
02:07:23,360 --> 02:07:27,160
Speaker 1: powerful political tool, but it's tool that has like limited um,

2282
02:07:27,680 --> 02:07:32,200
Speaker 1: like it it has limited utility for the right because

2283
02:07:32,360 --> 02:07:34,400
Speaker 1: you know, the right depends on the backing of capitalists

2284
02:07:34,400 --> 02:07:37,320
Speaker 1: for the politics to work. They really really need buy

2285
02:07:37,360 --> 02:07:40,720
Speaker 1: it capitalists, and those capitalists need cross border trade and

2286
02:07:41,000 --> 02:07:42,680
Speaker 1: you know, and the other thing like they also need

2287
02:07:43,040 --> 02:07:45,720
Speaker 1: they also need migrant workers to make their money. And

2288
02:07:45,720 --> 02:07:47,680
Speaker 1: if you cut that stuff off, your political base starts

2289
02:07:47,720 --> 02:07:51,680
Speaker 1: to collapse. And the second part of it that's interesting

2290
02:07:51,960 --> 02:07:54,280
Speaker 1: is you get to see how powerful this is as

2291
02:07:54,360 --> 02:07:57,600
Speaker 1: a weapon for you know, like the working class because

2292
02:07:57,640 --> 02:08:03,040
Speaker 1: of just like how instant enviously Abbott back down when

2293
02:08:03,280 --> 02:08:06,160
Speaker 1: the trucking blockhead starts because this this is all over.

2294
02:08:06,360 --> 02:08:10,920
Speaker 1: Um last Friday, I think the what date is that?

2295
02:08:12,640 --> 02:08:20,440
Speaker 1: That was good Friday, I mean the goodest, the goodest Friday. Yeah,

2296
02:08:22,680 --> 02:08:26,160
Speaker 1: Abbott was like, oh, oh, it's all over. We secured

2297
02:08:26,200 --> 02:08:31,160
Speaker 1: the border. Yeah everything border, sure, buddy, Okay, yeah, but

2298
02:08:31,240 --> 02:08:32,680
Speaker 1: you know, and you but like that's the thing, like

2299
02:08:33,040 --> 02:08:36,840
Speaker 1: you can see like, yeah, you gotta see you gotta

2300
02:08:36,840 --> 02:08:40,240
Speaker 1: see a rare moment of like Mexican workers and also

2301
02:08:40,400 --> 02:08:42,320
Speaker 1: like the the sort of international capital class working on

2302
02:08:42,320 --> 02:08:43,840
Speaker 1: the same side. And you've got to see how fast

2303
02:08:43,960 --> 02:08:47,240
Speaker 1: they just like collaborate their politicians because yeah, like yeah,

2304
02:08:47,320 --> 02:08:48,400
Speaker 1: like that the state is that the state is the

2305
02:08:48,440 --> 02:08:51,560
Speaker 1: powerful force, but it turns out it's it's class politics

2306
02:08:51,560 --> 02:08:53,680
Speaker 1: all the way down. And I think I don't know

2307
02:08:54,200 --> 02:08:57,800
Speaker 1: this in Canada. I think there's a couple of interesting things.

2308
02:08:58,400 --> 02:09:00,920
Speaker 1: One is which, Okay, yeah, you're like if you're on

2309
02:09:01,120 --> 02:09:04,400
Speaker 1: the left, like already automatically you're going to be fighting

2310
02:09:05,080 --> 02:09:07,520
Speaker 1: the capital business ois just always mad at you. So

2311
02:09:07,640 --> 02:09:12,000
Speaker 1: that's concern. You will face more suppression immediately obviously. This

2312
02:09:12,400 --> 02:09:14,640
Speaker 1: this is this is how the game is played. Yeah,

2313
02:09:14,680 --> 02:09:16,680
Speaker 1: your face one suppresion deedily. But it's also like that

2314
02:09:16,800 --> 02:09:19,880
Speaker 1: that's not like a your base turning on you, Like

2315
02:09:20,040 --> 02:09:23,240
Speaker 1: that problem doesn't stem from capital is not making money.

2316
02:09:23,920 --> 02:09:25,960
Speaker 1: The problem you have with your base turning on you

2317
02:09:26,360 --> 02:09:30,280
Speaker 1: is about being being able to provision supplies to people.

2318
02:09:30,280 --> 02:09:32,000
Speaker 1: And I think this is you know, against even you

2319
02:09:32,240 --> 02:09:33,440
Speaker 1: know more about this than I do, but I will

2320
02:09:33,840 --> 02:09:35,720
Speaker 1: finish the sentence and then stop talking. Which is that

2321
02:09:35,840 --> 02:09:37,880
Speaker 1: like like, yeah, if you look at Canada, it was

2322
02:09:37,960 --> 02:09:40,760
Speaker 1: like part of the reason their occupations failed was that

2323
02:09:40,840 --> 02:09:43,200
Speaker 1: like yeah, like just like a bunch of ordinary people

2324
02:09:43,280 --> 02:09:46,160
Speaker 1: got really really mad at them because their whole their

2325
02:09:46,160 --> 02:09:49,440
Speaker 1: cities were being locked down. Yeah, yeah, they started impacting

2326
02:09:49,520 --> 02:09:53,040
Speaker 1: not just the economic drivers, but the people who live

2327
02:09:53,080 --> 02:09:56,040
Speaker 1: in those areas regularly and need them to operate. And

2328
02:09:56,120 --> 02:09:59,160
Speaker 1: that gave politicians enough enough of the incentive to be like, see,

2329
02:09:59,600 --> 02:10:02,320
Speaker 1: actually hurting real people. It's not just hurting the economy,

2330
02:10:02,600 --> 02:10:05,360
Speaker 1: but it's hurting you know, your grandma who could be

2331
02:10:05,440 --> 02:10:08,400
Speaker 1: living in like Ottawa or something. Right, So when you

2332
02:10:08,480 --> 02:10:11,240
Speaker 1: when you use these tactics, it's about balancing the propaganda

2333
02:10:11,760 --> 02:10:15,800
Speaker 1: of like not severely impacting the people who actually live

2334
02:10:15,840 --> 02:10:19,480
Speaker 1: in these places very much, but but targeting the economics,

2335
02:10:19,640 --> 02:10:23,000
Speaker 1: policies and the you know, you know, the corporate elite

2336
02:10:23,080 --> 02:10:25,680
Speaker 1: or whatever kind of framing you want to use. Because

2337
02:10:25,720 --> 02:10:28,840
Speaker 1: as as soon as you start doing tactics that just

2338
02:10:29,160 --> 02:10:32,880
Speaker 1: hurt you know, regular people, that is such an immediate

2339
02:10:33,000 --> 02:10:39,040
Speaker 1: like propaganda l as the kids would say, um, because yeah,

2340
02:10:39,240 --> 02:10:41,120
Speaker 1: you're but you're just giving them the tools to easily

2341
02:10:41,160 --> 02:10:43,200
Speaker 1: fight you back. And yes, they're gonna they're gonna try

2342
02:10:43,240 --> 02:10:46,880
Speaker 1: to invent tools to to to stop you no matter what.

2343
02:10:47,000 --> 02:10:48,720
Speaker 1: Like they're they're gonna, they're gonna they're gonna try to

2344
02:10:48,760 --> 02:10:53,000
Speaker 1: do something the via propaganda lens. But there's some propaganda

2345
02:10:53,080 --> 02:10:56,400
Speaker 1: is way easier and uh much harder than others. So

2346
02:10:56,880 --> 02:10:59,000
Speaker 1: I think a big part of these types of things

2347
02:10:59,120 --> 02:11:01,440
Speaker 1: when you're starting to like block off you know, roots

2348
02:11:01,480 --> 02:11:03,800
Speaker 1: to cities, block off supply chains as you need to

2349
02:11:03,840 --> 02:11:08,320
Speaker 1: be cognizant of making sure that the people who are

2350
02:11:08,360 --> 02:11:11,000
Speaker 1: like immediately next to kind of things that you're also cool,

2351
02:11:11,120 --> 02:11:13,280
Speaker 1: because that can give you so much more legs. I mean,

2352
02:11:13,320 --> 02:11:16,160
Speaker 1: we saw this in the Red House in Portland. There

2353
02:11:16,200 --> 02:11:18,720
Speaker 1: was a there was a lot of effort, um to

2354
02:11:19,480 --> 02:11:22,720
Speaker 1: make the immediate neighbors not hate the occupation there, to

2355
02:11:23,000 --> 02:11:26,040
Speaker 1: to stop the family from being evicted, um, And there

2356
02:11:26,120 --> 02:11:28,240
Speaker 1: was a lot of debate around like how much graffiti

2357
02:11:28,280 --> 02:11:31,360
Speaker 1: should be allowed in the surrounding area because you know,

2358
02:11:31,400 --> 02:11:33,160
Speaker 1: you don't want to piss off the neighbors too much.

2359
02:11:33,640 --> 02:11:35,680
Speaker 1: Now that this can obviously stem in bad directions in

2360
02:11:35,800 --> 02:11:38,800
Speaker 1: terms of like there was then like self self appointed

2361
02:11:38,840 --> 02:11:42,640
Speaker 1: security guards like beating up and shooting people with paintballs

2362
02:11:42,760 --> 02:11:45,960
Speaker 1: who were doing graffiti, which is obviously like not not

2363
02:11:46,160 --> 02:11:49,680
Speaker 1: not how you do good anarchism um. But then there's

2364
02:11:49,680 --> 02:11:51,800
Speaker 1: other stuff being like no, we should just trash this

2365
02:11:51,920 --> 02:11:54,520
Speaker 1: area anyway. It's all in the process of being gentrified,

2366
02:11:54,560 --> 02:11:57,440
Speaker 1: which mean it is, but you're like, yes, I understand

2367
02:11:57,480 --> 02:12:00,080
Speaker 1: that emotional impulse. Um, and you may be right in

2368
02:12:00,160 --> 02:12:02,640
Speaker 1: a lot of senses, like like more like more correct morally,

2369
02:12:03,080 --> 02:12:05,560
Speaker 1: but to play the propaganda game to actually stop a

2370
02:12:05,600 --> 02:12:08,800
Speaker 1: black family from being evicted, maybe we can actually to

2371
02:12:08,880 --> 02:12:11,120
Speaker 1: look at this at a more tactical level. Yeah, And

2372
02:12:11,280 --> 02:12:12,880
Speaker 1: I think that there's a lot of examples things we

2373
02:12:12,880 --> 02:12:15,360
Speaker 1: can learn from strikes that do is very efficiently. Like

2374
02:12:15,440 --> 02:12:17,360
Speaker 1: one of the things one of the reasons the wildcats

2375
02:12:17,520 --> 02:12:19,640
Speaker 1: in West the wildcat teacher strikes West Virginia and he

2376
02:12:19,720 --> 02:12:23,040
Speaker 1: doesn't seventeen worked was that the striking teachers in West

2377
02:12:23,080 --> 02:12:26,080
Speaker 1: Virginia were very very careful about making sure that they

2378
02:12:26,120 --> 02:12:29,080
Speaker 1: did things like you know, like making making sure that

2379
02:12:29,200 --> 02:12:32,440
Speaker 1: kids got like the meals that that the school would

2380
02:12:32,440 --> 02:12:38,120
Speaker 1: have been like providing like like you know, like this

2381
02:12:38,240 --> 02:12:40,800
Speaker 1: is why this is why mutual aid is extremely important

2382
02:12:40,880 --> 02:12:44,400
Speaker 1: because it lets you It lets you provision services, not

2383
02:12:44,640 --> 02:12:47,800
Speaker 1: just when they collapse because of like you know, oh,

2384
02:12:47,920 --> 02:12:51,480
Speaker 1: hey the government's doing weird stuff or like there's a plague.

2385
02:12:51,480 --> 02:12:54,280
Speaker 1: It lets you do it, lets you shut down logistics

2386
02:12:54,320 --> 02:12:56,960
Speaker 1: slnes yourself and still have community support and still be

2387
02:12:57,000 --> 02:12:59,440
Speaker 1: able to provide people. To think that provide people things

2388
02:12:59,480 --> 02:13:01,320
Speaker 1: that they need, and it's just like, you know, if

2389
02:13:01,320 --> 02:13:02,760
Speaker 1: if you carry this all the way to like the

2390
02:13:02,960 --> 02:13:06,320
Speaker 1: macro macro level, it's like yeah, okay, So like why

2391
02:13:06,360 --> 02:13:08,880
Speaker 1: did why did the Russian Revolution not work? And you know,

2392
02:13:09,040 --> 02:13:11,080
Speaker 1: like like why did the Pairs Commune fail? And it's like, well, yeah,

2393
02:13:11,120 --> 02:13:14,880
Speaker 1: it's because instead of like giving peasants things, they went

2394
02:13:14,920 --> 02:13:18,000
Speaker 1: into the countryside and shot them into actepting to get

2395
02:13:18,040 --> 02:13:20,520
Speaker 1: those things. And it's like, yeah, like you have to

2396
02:13:21,760 --> 02:13:24,200
Speaker 1: what what what what whatever. The thing that you're doing

2397
02:13:24,480 --> 02:13:26,920
Speaker 1: is in in in your sort of like base area,

2398
02:13:27,080 --> 02:13:29,040
Speaker 1: right whatever. You're like, hey, you're you're doing a strike,

2399
02:13:29,200 --> 02:13:32,320
Speaker 1: You're shutting down a bridge. You're like, you know, you're

2400
02:13:32,320 --> 02:13:35,200
Speaker 1: blocking up border, you're trying down a port, right you

2401
02:13:35,360 --> 02:13:38,000
Speaker 1: you have to make sure you're constantly expanding and building

2402
02:13:38,040 --> 02:13:41,440
Speaker 1: out support outside outside of that, outside of that action,

2403
02:13:41,480 --> 02:13:43,800
Speaker 1: and making sure you're you're you're able to provision the

2404
02:13:43,840 --> 02:13:45,960
Speaker 1: people who are affected by it. And if you don't

2405
02:13:46,000 --> 02:13:48,120
Speaker 1: do this, you end up like Abbott. And it's like yeah,

2406
02:13:48,600 --> 02:13:51,720
Speaker 1: you know he Abbott had like the entire power of

2407
02:13:51,800 --> 02:13:53,560
Speaker 1: the American state behind him, and he was able to

2408
02:13:53,640 --> 02:13:58,160
Speaker 1: keep this up for like less than two weeks before

2409
02:13:58,160 --> 02:14:01,000
Speaker 1: he had to just pull out. So, yeah, we can

2410
02:14:01,200 --> 02:14:03,480
Speaker 1: do this better and for things that are good and

2411
02:14:03,560 --> 02:14:05,720
Speaker 1: in ways that don't hurt people or at least hurt

2412
02:14:05,720 --> 02:14:09,520
Speaker 1: people significantly less or you know, don't not hurt the

2413
02:14:09,600 --> 02:14:12,800
Speaker 1: wrong people instead try to try to hurt the right people.

2414
02:14:13,000 --> 02:14:17,400
Speaker 1: Just like an incredible lack of like thinking. That's my

2415
02:14:17,840 --> 02:14:23,240
Speaker 1: that's my summaries. Yeah, better do you think? Like? Yeah?

2416
02:14:23,400 --> 02:14:25,919
Speaker 1: And I think also like again like Abbott, Abbott's politics

2417
02:14:26,400 --> 02:14:29,760
Speaker 1: like is entirely about like infricting cruelty on people, right,

2418
02:14:29,840 --> 02:14:34,240
Speaker 1: and ours like shouldn't be and shouldn't Yeah, And the

2419
02:14:34,320 --> 02:14:36,480
Speaker 1: fact that we actually care about people makes our politics

2420
02:14:36,520 --> 02:14:40,880
Speaker 1: were effective and sho in theory. In theory they should

2421
02:14:41,160 --> 02:14:43,800
Speaker 1: um and any time when we take a misstep from that,

2422
02:14:43,880 --> 02:14:46,520
Speaker 1: I think is of it is a big loss. Yeah.

2423
02:14:47,800 --> 02:14:49,600
Speaker 1: There's there's one more strike thing that I just remembered

2424
02:14:49,600 --> 02:14:51,080
Speaker 1: that I was going to talk about, which is I

2425
02:14:51,960 --> 02:14:54,760
Speaker 1: So these also trains a lot. There's there's a type

2426
02:14:54,760 --> 02:14:56,600
Speaker 1: of striker's name I'm forgetting because I'm a hack and

2427
02:14:56,640 --> 02:14:59,919
Speaker 1: a fraud where like the people, the people, the people

2428
02:15:00,080 --> 02:15:01,680
Speaker 1: just like take over a train and they'll run it,

2429
02:15:01,760 --> 02:15:05,000
Speaker 1: but they just won't take fars. That is incredibly bit Yeah,

2430
02:15:05,040 --> 02:15:07,600
Speaker 1: and you know, so that's that's that's like level one

2431
02:15:07,680 --> 02:15:09,760
Speaker 1: of it. And then level two of the strike is

2432
02:15:09,880 --> 02:15:12,240
Speaker 1: insteade of just we're on strike, but we're running the

2433
02:15:12,280 --> 02:15:14,760
Speaker 1: service and not taking any money. It's we now control

2434
02:15:14,840 --> 02:15:17,960
Speaker 1: this train and that that has happened on several occasions,

2435
02:15:18,480 --> 02:15:21,440
Speaker 1: and well, yeah, you do that. It's cool. You heard

2436
02:15:21,480 --> 02:15:24,720
Speaker 1: it here. First take over your local train. Um, it

2437
02:15:24,800 --> 02:15:26,600
Speaker 1: could happen here. We could, we we can do it.

2438
02:15:27,200 --> 02:15:31,680
Speaker 1: Anarchism can make the trains run on time. Oh I'm

2439
02:15:31,760 --> 02:15:35,880
Speaker 1: not sure about that. Pug punk time it is as

2440
02:15:35,920 --> 02:15:38,560
Speaker 1: an unstoppable Okay. Here, here's the thing. Here's the thing,

2441
02:15:38,640 --> 02:15:41,880
Speaker 1: right like punk time. Like okay, so you don't have

2442
02:15:42,040 --> 02:15:44,320
Speaker 1: the punks running the trains. You have the train nerds

2443
02:15:44,400 --> 02:15:46,800
Speaker 1: running the train, people who should spend all of their

2444
02:15:46,880 --> 02:15:50,320
Speaker 1: time playing train simulator running the trains. Okay, that the

2445
02:15:50,400 --> 02:15:56,840
Speaker 1: trains will run great? Alright, that is that is completely fair. Um.

2446
02:15:57,040 --> 02:16:00,240
Speaker 1: Where can people find you and or the show on

2447
02:16:00,360 --> 02:16:04,880
Speaker 1: the internet. You can find me at three on Twitter

2448
02:16:05,640 --> 02:16:08,200
Speaker 1: if you want to do that for some reason. You

2449
02:16:08,280 --> 02:16:11,840
Speaker 1: can find us that happened here pod on Twitter, Instagram. Uh,

2450
02:16:12,000 --> 02:16:15,000
Speaker 1: there's also the Cool Zone. We have Zone Media. Yeah,

2451
02:16:15,080 --> 02:16:16,920
Speaker 1: we have a we have a new podcast that is

2452
02:16:16,960 --> 02:16:18,360
Speaker 1: coming so if you do want to want to go,

2453
02:16:19,360 --> 02:16:21,560
Speaker 1: we actually got we got two new ones for you

2454
02:16:21,720 --> 02:16:25,120
Speaker 1: coming soon. We have a Ghost Church by Jamie Loftus.

2455
02:16:25,840 --> 02:16:31,000
Speaker 1: Episode one is out April, and then we have Cool

2456
02:16:31,040 --> 02:16:35,279
Speaker 1: People Who Did Cool Stuff hosted by Margaret Killjoy. Trailer

2457
02:16:35,560 --> 02:16:39,880
Speaker 1: is out next week and episode one is out on

2458
02:16:40,320 --> 02:16:45,240
Speaker 1: May second. Check both of them out. So many, so

2459
02:16:45,400 --> 02:16:48,560
Speaker 1: many pods in the pipe, as you say, that is

2460
02:16:49,160 --> 02:16:53,800
Speaker 1: the technical term, pods in the pipe. These these are genuinely,

2461
02:16:53,959 --> 02:16:55,840
Speaker 1: legitimately very good shows and you should listen to them.

2462
02:16:55,879 --> 02:17:00,520
Speaker 1: And I'm really excited. So alright, well, thank for listening,

2463
02:17:00,680 --> 02:17:20,080
Speaker 1: and uh go go take over a train. Greetings listeners

2464
02:17:20,280 --> 02:17:23,840
Speaker 1: in the podcast verse, this is it could happen here,

2465
02:17:24,040 --> 02:17:28,080
Speaker 1: the podcast about things falling apart and sometimes how we

2466
02:17:28,160 --> 02:17:31,959
Speaker 1: can put stuff back together. I'm Garrison Davis are Resident

2467
02:17:32,360 --> 02:17:36,680
Speaker 1: Gender mess. In the past few weeks, we've been talking

2468
02:17:36,840 --> 02:17:40,080
Speaker 1: a lot here on the show about the escalating war

2469
02:17:40,360 --> 02:17:44,200
Speaker 1: on trans people and queer folks in general. There's been

2470
02:17:44,200 --> 02:17:47,240
Speaker 1: a wave of bills making any gender affirming healthcare of

2471
02:17:47,360 --> 02:17:51,240
Speaker 1: felony for people under the age of eighteen, which forcibly

2472
02:17:51,320 --> 02:17:54,760
Speaker 1: detransitions teenagers and multiple states, and we've had a lot

2473
02:17:54,800 --> 02:17:58,720
Speaker 1: of banning trans people from participating in sports and trying

2474
02:17:58,760 --> 02:18:01,480
Speaker 1: to ban books and discussion in schools about the just

2475
02:18:01,560 --> 02:18:04,760
Speaker 1: the existence of queer people at all. But today we're

2476
02:18:04,800 --> 02:18:07,040
Speaker 1: not really going to be talking about that. We've talked

2477
02:18:07,040 --> 02:18:09,680
Speaker 1: about that plenty for the past few weeks. It's good

2478
02:18:09,720 --> 02:18:11,400
Speaker 1: to have a little little bit of a break, but

2479
02:18:11,480 --> 02:18:14,720
Speaker 1: we'll still be talking about stuff around trans people. Because

2480
02:18:15,000 --> 02:18:18,200
Speaker 1: with all the discussion around gender affirming healthcare, I thought

2481
02:18:18,240 --> 02:18:19,880
Speaker 1: it would be a good idea to put something together

2482
02:18:20,040 --> 02:18:24,720
Speaker 1: talking about what HRT or hormone replacement therapy actually is,

2483
02:18:25,240 --> 02:18:28,119
Speaker 1: as since it's the most common form of trans healthcare,

2484
02:18:28,720 --> 02:18:31,960
Speaker 1: and since many states are trying to or already have

2485
02:18:32,200 --> 02:18:35,840
Speaker 1: criminalized it, perhaps I can use the pod to point

2486
02:18:35,879 --> 02:18:39,920
Speaker 1: people towards alternative means of receiving care, you know, in

2487
02:18:40,000 --> 02:18:42,920
Speaker 1: the vein of the putting stuff back together side of

2488
02:18:43,000 --> 02:18:46,959
Speaker 1: the show. Now, I want to clarify upfront that we're

2489
02:18:47,000 --> 02:18:51,320
Speaker 1: not giving anyone medical advice, obviously, I'm just making observations

2490
02:18:51,480 --> 02:18:55,360
Speaker 1: and talking about things as they exist, um and talking

2491
02:18:55,360 --> 02:18:57,480
Speaker 1: about things that many trans people have been doing for

2492
02:18:57,600 --> 02:19:00,200
Speaker 1: a long time, and that includes d y h RT.

2493
02:19:00,840 --> 02:19:04,480
Speaker 1: My doctorate program is in parapsychology, not medical science, so

2494
02:19:04,800 --> 02:19:08,320
Speaker 1: just keep that in mind. First, I will quickly clarify

2495
02:19:08,680 --> 02:19:14,520
Speaker 1: what HRT or hormone replacement therapy actually is for specifically

2496
02:19:14,720 --> 02:19:18,160
Speaker 1: non CIS gender individuals because HRT as a term is

2497
02:19:18,200 --> 02:19:22,840
Speaker 1: also used for SIS women to describe similar but different treatment.

2498
02:19:23,280 --> 02:19:27,480
Speaker 1: So HRT as a form of gender affirming treatment is

2499
02:19:27,600 --> 02:19:31,600
Speaker 1: when someone receives sex hormone medication that produces a number

2500
02:19:31,680 --> 02:19:36,520
Speaker 1: of desired secondary sex characteristics. There are two broad types

2501
02:19:36,640 --> 02:19:39,680
Speaker 1: of hormone therapy that one would receive, depending on what

2502
02:19:39,920 --> 02:19:43,440
Speaker 1: direction you want to go in gender of wise, there's

2503
02:19:43,680 --> 02:19:49,520
Speaker 1: feminizing hormones and masculinizing hormones. Feminizing hormones produce more typically

2504
02:19:50,000 --> 02:19:54,440
Speaker 1: feminine traits, right, big big shocker there. Uh. It usually

2505
02:19:54,720 --> 02:19:58,600
Speaker 1: consists of a form of estrogen, usually called estradial. There's

2506
02:19:58,600 --> 02:20:02,480
Speaker 1: different types of estradial and also it can include anti

2507
02:20:02,560 --> 02:20:09,160
Speaker 1: androgen's aka a testosterone blockers. Masculinization therapy consists of taking

2508
02:20:09,240 --> 02:20:14,480
Speaker 1: to sosterone or androgen's and then also less commonly anti estrogen's,

2509
02:20:14,600 --> 02:20:19,440
Speaker 1: but usually just taking testosterone will suffice now I'm no

2510
02:20:19,560 --> 02:20:23,680
Speaker 1: expert in hormones despite my weekly shot, but lucky enough

2511
02:20:23,959 --> 02:20:26,360
Speaker 1: I was able to sit down with an actual expert

2512
02:20:26,440 --> 02:20:30,280
Speaker 1: on hormones and talk over zoom. So what follows is

2513
02:20:30,360 --> 02:20:33,920
Speaker 1: segments from our conversation. I guess first, do you want

2514
02:20:33,959 --> 02:20:39,279
Speaker 1: to introduce yourself? Sure? I am the Reverend Dr Victoria

2515
02:20:39,360 --> 02:20:41,960
Speaker 1: Luna B. Grieve. I am an assistant professor at the

2516
02:20:42,040 --> 02:20:45,840
Speaker 1: University of Pittsburgh School of Pharmacy. My primary clinical focuses

2517
02:20:45,959 --> 02:20:50,760
Speaker 1: on gender affirming hormone therapy, other kind of advocacy work

2518
02:20:50,840 --> 02:20:53,160
Speaker 1: in queer healthcare, and I do a lot of other

2519
02:20:53,160 --> 02:20:57,039
Speaker 1: stuff on the side, heatago g LUDC, instructional design, game design,

2520
02:20:57,200 --> 02:21:00,760
Speaker 1: just anything that strikes my fancy. Really found fun stuff

2521
02:21:02,120 --> 02:21:05,600
Speaker 1: in with within kind of our our coverage of trends

2522
02:21:05,640 --> 02:21:08,640
Speaker 1: stuff the past few weeks and months, it's been mostly

2523
02:21:08,680 --> 02:21:11,400
Speaker 1: on like the bills and like the politics side of things.

2524
02:21:11,840 --> 02:21:14,480
Speaker 1: I definitely had some people like reach out and be like, okay,

2525
02:21:14,560 --> 02:21:19,520
Speaker 1: but how like why why trands? Gender? Why why hormones?

2526
02:21:19,600 --> 02:21:21,720
Speaker 1: Like why are hormones actually important? Like could you actually

2527
02:21:21,760 --> 02:21:24,720
Speaker 1: explain like why, like you know, with all of these

2528
02:21:24,800 --> 02:21:28,080
Speaker 1: all these states banding hormones, let's I would like to

2529
02:21:28,200 --> 02:21:30,560
Speaker 1: kind of explain why it's such a big deal and

2530
02:21:30,800 --> 02:21:33,959
Speaker 1: like how much these things actually are like life saving

2531
02:21:34,440 --> 02:21:41,480
Speaker 1: medication for so many people. Yeah, so why hormones? I

2532
02:21:41,600 --> 02:21:44,160
Speaker 1: love it because it's a question that as like a species,

2533
02:21:44,280 --> 02:21:46,840
Speaker 1: we've been we we have known the answer to for

2534
02:21:46,959 --> 02:21:50,959
Speaker 1: like five thousand years. It's it's very funny, but um,

2535
02:21:51,640 --> 02:21:56,160
Speaker 1: hormones are Okay. A big part of this requires to

2536
02:21:56,320 --> 02:21:59,480
Speaker 1: like acknowledge something that is very wrong in in like

2537
02:21:59,600 --> 02:22:03,200
Speaker 1: the medical literature. There's a lot of elements of healthcare

2538
02:22:03,360 --> 02:22:07,320
Speaker 1: that are coordinated between like male and female, and there's

2539
02:22:07,320 --> 02:22:11,720
Speaker 1: a kind of like obviously is a little so there's

2540
02:22:11,720 --> 02:22:14,440
Speaker 1: a lot of mean I mean like from like from

2541
02:22:14,600 --> 02:22:17,280
Speaker 1: people's I know, when trans people talk about interacting with

2542
02:22:17,320 --> 02:22:19,560
Speaker 1: the medical system, it's always like, oh, yes, we're gonna

2543
02:22:19,600 --> 02:22:23,080
Speaker 1: be doing this bullshit, yes of course. Yeah. Well but

2544
02:22:23,200 --> 02:22:25,000
Speaker 1: it even goes to it like a really deep level,

2545
02:22:25,040 --> 02:22:26,440
Speaker 1: like if you're in the hospital and you get a

2546
02:22:26,480 --> 02:22:30,240
Speaker 1: CBC count, there's a male profile and a female profile

2547
02:22:30,280 --> 02:22:32,320
Speaker 1: of what your hematocrit should be on, like what the

2548
02:22:32,440 --> 02:22:34,840
Speaker 1: level of red blood cells are and and the general

2549
02:22:34,959 --> 02:22:38,240
Speaker 1: understanding and like the health industry is that there's a

2550
02:22:38,360 --> 02:22:42,119
Speaker 1: biological anatomical difference between them, and for the longest time,

2551
02:22:42,280 --> 02:22:45,280
Speaker 1: certainly in this country, trans women would have would be

2552
02:22:45,320 --> 02:22:49,320
Speaker 1: compared against the male profiles. But but it's nonsense. It's

2553
02:22:49,320 --> 02:22:52,320
Speaker 1: actually should be thought of in form of hormone dominance,

2554
02:22:52,360 --> 02:22:56,760
Speaker 1: because the vast majority of medical differences are not anatomical.

2555
02:22:56,840 --> 02:23:00,440
Speaker 1: They're hormonal, and and that right there should should give

2556
02:23:00,440 --> 02:23:03,039
Speaker 1: the game away, which is really funny, which is why

2557
02:23:03,040 --> 02:23:05,840
Speaker 1: I why I kind of hate the term biological woman

2558
02:23:06,040 --> 02:23:08,920
Speaker 1: whenever people start using that, because that's not really how

2559
02:23:09,000 --> 02:23:14,600
Speaker 1: biology works. Yeah, I mean the joke is my my

2560
02:23:14,680 --> 02:23:17,720
Speaker 1: nesting partner, my fiance, wishes that she could be a robot,

2561
02:23:17,760 --> 02:23:19,840
Speaker 1: and then if she were to do that and upload

2562
02:23:19,879 --> 02:23:21,880
Speaker 1: her brain into an immortal robot body, she would no

2563
02:23:22,000 --> 02:23:24,360
Speaker 1: longer be a biological woman, but she would still be

2564
02:23:24,440 --> 02:23:27,960
Speaker 1: a woman. It's just cybernetic um. I hate that. It's

2565
02:23:28,000 --> 02:23:30,640
Speaker 1: like organic. Organic just means it has carbon in it. Like,

2566
02:23:30,800 --> 02:23:38,080
Speaker 1: give me a break. So yeah, hormones, what's what's what's

2567
02:23:38,120 --> 02:23:40,600
Speaker 1: the deal do they? Because I know all of people

2568
02:23:40,640 --> 02:23:43,000
Speaker 1: will be like, well, all of these treads people sure

2569
02:23:43,040 --> 02:23:47,120
Speaker 1: do seem sad. I want that's how how how can

2570
02:23:47,200 --> 02:23:51,720
Speaker 1: we make things better? Does this thing actually work well,

2571
02:23:51,920 --> 02:23:55,200
Speaker 1: So it's somewhat multifactorial. I have a friend who does

2572
02:23:55,520 --> 02:23:58,480
Speaker 1: um sell imaging and her like working theory, which I'm

2573
02:23:58,640 --> 02:24:01,000
Speaker 1: a little dubious of. Is it like the brains of

2574
02:24:01,120 --> 02:24:04,119
Speaker 1: trans people like have receptors for hormones that the body

2575
02:24:04,160 --> 02:24:06,480
Speaker 1: doesn't make, and we should think of being transgender is

2576
02:24:06,600 --> 02:24:10,120
Speaker 1: having like a form of hypogonadism. Yeah, there's there's a

2577
02:24:10,160 --> 02:24:12,240
Speaker 1: lot of different trains of thought there in terms of

2578
02:24:12,879 --> 02:24:15,640
Speaker 1: the different theories of why trans people exist and how

2579
02:24:15,760 --> 02:24:18,720
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, the girl's brain, boys body, blah

2580
02:24:18,760 --> 02:24:21,320
Speaker 1: blah blah blah blah, which all, if you dig deep enough,

2581
02:24:21,400 --> 02:24:25,240
Speaker 1: goes back to eugenic so it's all. Yeah, I've always

2582
02:24:25,360 --> 02:24:28,640
Speaker 1: not liked that model. I've always it's always I've always

2583
02:24:28,680 --> 02:24:31,080
Speaker 1: found it to be a little bit uncomfortable because I

2584
02:24:31,680 --> 02:24:34,480
Speaker 1: take hormones because I want to, and I don't think

2585
02:24:34,560 --> 02:24:38,160
Speaker 1: it's because my my my brain is like secretly looking

2586
02:24:38,320 --> 02:24:42,920
Speaker 1: for girl receptors or something like, right, I totally agree,

2587
02:24:43,000 --> 02:24:46,560
Speaker 1: Like it also requires a certain like extremely binary understanding

2588
02:24:46,600 --> 02:24:48,800
Speaker 1: of gender, which I also do not ascribe to. So

2589
02:24:49,000 --> 02:24:51,840
Speaker 1: it's a very like odd thought. But putting aside all

2590
02:24:51,879 --> 02:24:53,240
Speaker 1: of that if you just wanted to look at the

2591
02:24:53,560 --> 02:24:59,119
Speaker 1: like why people want hormones, Because when a person who

2592
02:24:59,200 --> 02:25:03,879
Speaker 1: wants hormone gets the hormones they want, their suicidality goes down,

2593
02:25:03,959 --> 02:25:07,640
Speaker 1: their anxiety, depression goes down, gender dysphoria, if we wanted to,

2594
02:25:07,760 --> 02:25:10,760
Speaker 1: you know, talk about the problems with that, essentially like

2595
02:25:10,879 --> 02:25:14,280
Speaker 1: goes away. Uh, and they get they start to get

2596
02:25:14,320 --> 02:25:17,480
Speaker 1: treated like the way they want to be treated in society.

2597
02:25:17,600 --> 02:25:19,360
Speaker 1: So from the if if you want to look at it,

2598
02:25:19,440 --> 02:25:22,920
Speaker 1: not from like the causes, but from the results. Giving

2599
02:25:23,120 --> 02:25:26,800
Speaker 1: gender affirming hormone therapy to a person who is requesting

2600
02:25:26,840 --> 02:25:32,600
Speaker 1: gender affirming hormone therapy has a success rate. The rate

2601
02:25:32,680 --> 02:25:36,760
Speaker 1: of regret from starting hormones is one percent or less,

2602
02:25:37,080 --> 02:25:41,440
Speaker 1: which is unbelievable in the health care field, like like

2603
02:25:41,800 --> 02:25:45,040
Speaker 1: having a child, like biologically giving birth has a seven

2604
02:25:45,160 --> 02:25:49,760
Speaker 1: percent regret rate, Like the idea of any therapy having

2605
02:25:49,920 --> 02:25:56,080
Speaker 1: that high of a rate of preventing death, anxiety, depression, bullying,

2606
02:25:56,240 --> 02:25:59,480
Speaker 1: like all of the different effects. Being that successful should

2607
02:25:59,560 --> 02:26:02,200
Speaker 1: be like a miracle. It should be looked at as

2608
02:26:02,800 --> 02:26:08,920
Speaker 1: the thing we in healthcare are like should do absolutely ethically. Uh.

2609
02:26:09,000 --> 02:26:11,680
Speaker 1: And it is. It is so much more complicated than that.

2610
02:26:12,160 --> 02:26:15,880
Speaker 1: So like hormones from the results obviously makes sense. It

2611
02:26:15,959 --> 02:26:19,760
Speaker 1: aligns your body's shape and like fat fat deposits and

2612
02:26:19,840 --> 02:26:21,640
Speaker 1: the way that you feel, the way that you relate

2613
02:26:21,720 --> 02:26:25,760
Speaker 1: to your emotions, it all goes back to the way

2614
02:26:25,840 --> 02:26:29,720
Speaker 1: that hormones work on your body. And there's there's like

2615
02:26:29,800 --> 02:26:32,600
Speaker 1: the old saying that like assis person would never want

2616
02:26:32,680 --> 02:26:36,360
Speaker 1: to try gender forming hormerone therapy, so like if you

2617
02:26:36,520 --> 02:26:38,560
Speaker 1: have the in if you want to try it, you

2618
02:26:38,600 --> 02:26:40,640
Speaker 1: should be allowed to try it. I mean, like you're

2619
02:26:40,680 --> 02:26:43,200
Speaker 1: you're kind of a good example right here, Like yeah,

2620
02:26:44,400 --> 02:26:46,640
Speaker 1: but I'm sitting Yeah, if you're sitting around a bar

2621
02:26:46,720 --> 02:26:48,879
Speaker 1: with a bunch of like ciss guys and you're like, hey,

2622
02:26:48,959 --> 02:26:52,040
Speaker 1: who wants some estrogen, they would all like shrink away

2623
02:26:52,120 --> 02:26:56,440
Speaker 1: from it, Like no, absolutely, because yeah it's definitely a thing.

2624
02:26:56,520 --> 02:27:00,560
Speaker 1: Like I'm not the most dysphoric person, but like sure,

2625
02:27:00,640 --> 02:27:03,720
Speaker 1: I'll take estrogen. That sounds fun. That's like it's like

2626
02:27:03,879 --> 02:27:06,080
Speaker 1: that that sounds like a thing that I could enjoy

2627
02:27:06,160 --> 02:27:09,119
Speaker 1: watching my body change. And I'm you know, it's it's

2628
02:27:09,200 --> 02:27:11,760
Speaker 1: I'm happy that we're moving more towards that and not

2629
02:27:11,920 --> 02:27:15,959
Speaker 1: having to deal with Oh, I'm so dysphoric. I want

2630
02:27:16,040 --> 02:27:18,560
Speaker 1: to die, which is obviously a big thing for a

2631
02:27:18,600 --> 02:27:21,680
Speaker 1: lot of people. I'm not I'm not minimizing that right um.

2632
02:27:21,959 --> 02:27:23,600
Speaker 1: But also a lot of trans people have had more

2633
02:27:23,640 --> 02:27:26,600
Speaker 1: kind of complicated feelings on gender, whether they're like gender queer,

2634
02:27:26,760 --> 02:27:30,040
Speaker 1: non binary. Having the past had made it more difficult

2635
02:27:30,120 --> 02:27:31,920
Speaker 1: to get gender firm in care because they don't fit

2636
02:27:32,000 --> 02:27:37,280
Speaker 1: into those specific like male female boxes as easily. Well,

2637
02:27:37,400 --> 02:27:40,959
Speaker 1: and what you're talking about is really something that's relatively recent,

2638
02:27:41,040 --> 02:27:43,879
Speaker 1: the idea of gender euphoria, like the idea that people

2639
02:27:43,959 --> 02:27:47,760
Speaker 1: want to take und because it gives them joy to

2640
02:27:48,360 --> 02:27:51,560
Speaker 1: like dress or act or feel a certain way, and that,

2641
02:27:52,360 --> 02:27:54,480
Speaker 1: I mean, health care is all about, at least up

2642
02:27:54,560 --> 02:27:58,520
Speaker 1: until well, the reality of health care is that it

2643
02:27:58,640 --> 02:28:01,600
Speaker 1: is all about finding problem to solve and not really

2644
02:28:01,720 --> 02:28:06,040
Speaker 1: looking at like your life just better in general. Yeah, exactly.

2645
02:28:06,680 --> 02:28:09,080
Speaker 1: So you know, I know plenty of people who started

2646
02:28:09,120 --> 02:28:12,480
Speaker 1: hormones of any type just because they felt it would

2647
02:28:12,480 --> 02:28:14,640
Speaker 1: make them happier, and they were correct, And that gender

2648
02:28:14,760 --> 02:28:17,200
Speaker 1: euphoria is just as good of a reason to take

2649
02:28:17,240 --> 02:28:20,040
Speaker 1: it as the dysphoria. The problem ends up in how

2650
02:28:20,120 --> 02:28:24,320
Speaker 1: the medical industry treats it because dysphoria quote unquote is

2651
02:28:24,400 --> 02:28:26,800
Speaker 1: something as long. Oh my gosh, I could go into

2652
02:28:26,840 --> 02:28:28,560
Speaker 1: the whole history of that if you wanted, but I'm

2653
02:28:28,600 --> 02:28:30,320
Speaker 1: sure we could talk about the ds M four and

2654
02:28:30,760 --> 02:28:33,160
Speaker 1: five for a long time. Oh it's so frustrating. I

2655
02:28:33,240 --> 02:28:35,400
Speaker 1: spend I spend a two hour session in my queer

2656
02:28:35,440 --> 02:28:38,200
Speaker 1: healthcare class specifically just dunking on the d s M

2657
02:28:38,280 --> 02:28:43,520
Speaker 1: five definition of gender dysphoria. Um. But the real problem

2658
02:28:43,640 --> 02:28:46,440
Speaker 1: is like this focus on this negative quality and how

2659
02:28:46,600 --> 02:28:50,120
Speaker 1: that actually damages a lot of the conversations around uh,

2660
02:28:50,879 --> 02:28:54,160
Speaker 1: gender firming hormone therapy and trans people in general, Like

2661
02:28:54,240 --> 02:28:58,360
Speaker 1: instead of seeing it as like this manifestation of people

2662
02:28:58,560 --> 02:29:01,720
Speaker 1: like truly taking control roll of their lives to become

2663
02:29:01,920 --> 02:29:05,360
Speaker 1: authentic in like the truest way, Like you have never

2664
02:29:05,520 --> 02:29:08,960
Speaker 1: met a more truly well self made man than a

2665
02:29:09,080 --> 02:29:12,720
Speaker 1: transman who gets hormones. Like it's I mean, it's and

2666
02:29:12,920 --> 02:29:15,880
Speaker 1: it's still something we're even we're not quite at the

2667
02:29:16,280 --> 02:29:19,760
Speaker 1: at the gender utopia, I mean obviously because of all

2668
02:29:19,800 --> 02:29:22,480
Speaker 1: of the anti tran stuff, but even even on like

2669
02:29:22,760 --> 02:29:26,400
Speaker 1: just purely purely the medical side, like I even for

2670
02:29:26,600 --> 02:29:30,320
Speaker 1: for informed consent um I still needed to get diagnosed

2671
02:29:30,360 --> 02:29:33,160
Speaker 1: with gender dysphoria at the Informed Consent clinic in order

2672
02:29:33,200 --> 02:29:36,240
Speaker 1: to get hormones, which is in part like an insurance thing,

2673
02:29:36,400 --> 02:29:38,160
Speaker 1: and you know it has has all of these all

2674
02:29:38,200 --> 02:29:41,440
Speaker 1: of these bullshit reasons. Um, but that is that is

2675
02:29:41,520 --> 02:29:44,840
Speaker 1: something we're still we're still definitely dealing with. Oh my goodness. Yeah.

2676
02:29:44,879 --> 02:29:47,240
Speaker 1: And the better informed care clinics are the ones that

2677
02:29:47,959 --> 02:29:50,400
Speaker 1: they realize it's just like an effort in box ticking.

2678
02:29:50,560 --> 02:29:52,560
Speaker 1: So they're just like, Yep, sounds good. You came here

2679
02:29:52,640 --> 02:29:54,760
Speaker 1: to this clinic and you asked about hormones. Sounds like

2680
02:29:54,879 --> 02:29:57,600
Speaker 1: gender dysphoria to me, Like, we'll say your insurance whatever,

2681
02:29:57,680 --> 02:30:00,520
Speaker 1: we gotta say, yes, event we will go into like

2682
02:30:00,560 --> 02:30:02,600
Speaker 1: hormone blockers as well. Um, but I want to talk

2683
02:30:02,640 --> 02:30:05,880
Speaker 1: about there's a lot of this, there's a lot of

2684
02:30:05,920 --> 02:30:08,480
Speaker 1: rhetoric that's been we're growing for a long long time

2685
02:30:08,840 --> 02:30:16,440
Speaker 1: about the extremely damaging, irreversible effects of of hormone replacement therapy, um,

2686
02:30:16,640 --> 02:30:19,200
Speaker 1: and how they're gonna permanently alter your biology. If you

2687
02:30:19,320 --> 02:30:22,480
Speaker 1: give these two children and there's five year olds taking

2688
02:30:22,520 --> 02:30:25,640
Speaker 1: testosterone and it's gonna like you're like, you're like really

2689
02:30:26,040 --> 02:30:29,960
Speaker 1: that sounds very scary. Um, So that's something I would

2690
02:30:29,959 --> 02:30:31,720
Speaker 1: like to discuss. It's like because a lot of people

2691
02:30:32,480 --> 02:30:34,400
Speaker 1: when we when we do we talk talk about hormones,

2692
02:30:34,440 --> 02:30:37,119
Speaker 1: they think of it as this like big, extremely life

2693
02:30:37,200 --> 02:30:41,720
Speaker 1: altering thing, um that has like these you know, irreversible

2694
02:30:41,760 --> 02:30:44,800
Speaker 1: effects on your your your bones are gonna get weak

2695
02:30:44,840 --> 02:30:47,040
Speaker 1: and trivel to never and never get big again, and

2696
02:30:47,400 --> 02:30:51,640
Speaker 1: all of all of this very scary stuff. Um. What's

2697
02:30:51,720 --> 02:30:56,000
Speaker 1: up with that? I think a lot of it goes

2698
02:30:56,040 --> 02:30:59,320
Speaker 1: back to the biological essentialism, because hormones, even for the

2699
02:30:59,320 --> 02:31:04,360
Speaker 1: people who give them, are considered partially like reversible because

2700
02:31:04,480 --> 02:31:07,560
Speaker 1: the majority of the things that happen one take a

2701
02:31:07,680 --> 02:31:10,640
Speaker 1: long ass time, like you will know whether or not.

2702
02:31:10,840 --> 02:31:13,119
Speaker 1: This is a good idea for the majority of people

2703
02:31:13,480 --> 02:31:18,680
Speaker 1: well before the physical manifestations occur. Uh. And and considering

2704
02:31:18,840 --> 02:31:21,960
Speaker 1: like one of the biggest problems we have with certain formulations,

2705
02:31:22,000 --> 02:31:24,040
Speaker 1: like in the once a week or once every other

2706
02:31:24,120 --> 02:31:27,080
Speaker 1: week injectable version of estrogen, by the time you get

2707
02:31:27,160 --> 02:31:29,840
Speaker 1: to right before your next dose, your estrogen is so

2708
02:31:30,040 --> 02:31:33,199
Speaker 1: low you're feeling it and it's starting to like reverse

2709
02:31:33,280 --> 02:31:35,920
Speaker 1: some of those So like if you're feeling it after

2710
02:31:36,080 --> 02:31:41,560
Speaker 1: two weeks. How irreversible could it be? Uh? And some

2711
02:31:41,680 --> 02:31:45,080
Speaker 1: of it depends on like eight timing, because if we're

2712
02:31:45,080 --> 02:31:47,800
Speaker 1: talking about a person who has say, already gone through

2713
02:31:47,840 --> 02:31:52,000
Speaker 1: a testosterone mediated puberty, then some of the things are

2714
02:31:52,080 --> 02:31:54,200
Speaker 1: just not going to be affected. You can't change like

2715
02:31:54,360 --> 02:31:57,880
Speaker 1: bone size, height or anything like that. There's some interesting

2716
02:31:57,959 --> 02:32:01,560
Speaker 1: things about like hip uh, like flexation and and and

2717
02:32:01,720 --> 02:32:05,920
Speaker 1: and pivoting and actually yeah, yeah, and and and even

2718
02:32:05,959 --> 02:32:08,000
Speaker 1: like shoe sizes can can change because of the way

2719
02:32:08,040 --> 02:32:11,320
Speaker 1: the ligaments work on hormones, but like the bones aren't

2720
02:32:11,320 --> 02:32:14,280
Speaker 1: going to change once they're done growing. But that's sort

2721
02:32:14,280 --> 02:32:15,720
Speaker 1: of where the puberty blockers come in that we can

2722
02:32:15,760 --> 02:32:18,240
Speaker 1: we'll talk about later. Um. But for the for the

2723
02:32:18,280 --> 02:32:21,280
Speaker 1: majority of people, if you are going through if you

2724
02:32:21,360 --> 02:32:23,680
Speaker 1: have gone through a puberty that you did not want,

2725
02:32:24,120 --> 02:32:26,720
Speaker 1: you can take hormones to go through puberty you do

2726
02:32:26,959 --> 02:32:29,480
Speaker 1: want and get the effects that you do want. And

2727
02:32:29,760 --> 02:32:33,119
Speaker 1: some of the elements sure, like you know, growing breasts

2728
02:32:33,720 --> 02:32:36,800
Speaker 1: uh guna coomastia as we would call it, an assist man,

2729
02:32:36,920 --> 02:32:42,920
Speaker 1: which is another whole nonsense, UM, is not irreversible, Like

2730
02:32:43,200 --> 02:32:45,480
Speaker 1: you can have them removed if you decided that you

2731
02:32:45,560 --> 02:32:48,880
Speaker 1: needed to like de transition, which is a whole another story,

2732
02:32:49,200 --> 02:32:52,960
Speaker 1: but even then, it takes like five years to see

2733
02:32:53,080 --> 02:32:55,800
Speaker 1: your final breast size. Like if you if you're on

2734
02:32:55,920 --> 02:32:59,720
Speaker 1: hormones for five years and you're worried about the ir

2735
02:32:59,760 --> 02:33:02,800
Speaker 1: rever posable quote unquote effects, like what are we doing here?

2736
02:33:02,920 --> 02:33:04,440
Speaker 1: I mean, and even I've heard from a lot of

2737
02:33:04,560 --> 02:33:08,040
Speaker 1: my elder trans friends that whenever they go off hormones

2738
02:33:08,360 --> 02:33:10,920
Speaker 1: sometimes their breasts just kind of go away because they're

2739
02:33:10,959 --> 02:33:14,680
Speaker 1: not massive to begin with. Like if it's generally generally

2740
02:33:15,240 --> 02:33:20,080
Speaker 1: generally you don't get the massive, massive honkers immediately. Um

2741
02:33:20,879 --> 02:33:23,480
Speaker 1: working on it. I know, I know we're trying, um,

2742
02:33:23,959 --> 02:33:25,879
Speaker 1: but a lot of a lot, a lot of even

2743
02:33:25,920 --> 02:33:27,400
Speaker 1: the you know, that was one of the big things

2744
02:33:27,480 --> 02:33:30,560
Speaker 1: that informed consent thing was like, you know, a lot

2745
02:33:30,600 --> 02:33:33,600
Speaker 1: of these changes are reversible except for breasts. These are

2746
02:33:33,640 --> 02:33:35,720
Speaker 1: these are these are these are permanent change. Be careful

2747
02:33:35,920 --> 02:33:41,360
Speaker 1: and all my transferends are like a little bit but

2748
02:33:41,440 --> 02:33:44,720
Speaker 1: I mean, like your nipples won't shrink, Like your nipples

2749
02:33:44,760 --> 02:33:47,600
Speaker 1: will definitely be bigger, and that that won't change, but

2750
02:33:47,800 --> 02:33:50,400
Speaker 1: a lot of like the size actually does fluctuate, and

2751
02:33:50,840 --> 02:33:53,360
Speaker 1: I can't even tell that on like depending on if

2752
02:33:53,400 --> 02:33:55,600
Speaker 1: I like missidos or something, being like oh yeah, like

2753
02:33:55,920 --> 02:33:58,240
Speaker 1: there is a lot of a lot of fluctuation, even

2754
02:33:58,320 --> 02:34:00,240
Speaker 1: like on like you know, like temperature and stuf how

2755
02:34:00,360 --> 02:34:04,640
Speaker 1: cold it will determine how how how how how my

2756
02:34:04,760 --> 02:34:07,640
Speaker 1: chest looks it is. It is, Uh, it's pretty fun.

2757
02:34:07,720 --> 02:34:10,720
Speaker 1: I mean, I am I just like the bio hacking

2758
02:34:10,800 --> 02:34:13,920
Speaker 1: thing in general. It is like the cyberpunk and me um.

2759
02:34:14,959 --> 02:34:16,760
Speaker 1: But yeah, I guess I guess we could talk about

2760
02:34:17,720 --> 02:34:20,880
Speaker 1: hormone hormone blockers as well, because this is the other

2761
02:34:20,959 --> 02:34:23,320
Speaker 1: kind of thing you hear a lot about when conservatives

2762
02:34:23,360 --> 02:34:26,600
Speaker 1: are very scared about transpeople. The idea of hormone blockers

2763
02:34:27,560 --> 02:34:32,880
Speaker 1: like making people infertile or making permanent changes to children's

2764
02:34:32,959 --> 02:34:37,039
Speaker 1: health or something blah blah blah blah blah. Gosh, that's

2765
02:34:37,080 --> 02:34:40,640
Speaker 1: the thing that is like really really frustrating for me,

2766
02:34:41,600 --> 02:34:46,520
Speaker 1: specifically because puberty blockers, the Ganada troupe in the g

2767
02:34:46,760 --> 02:34:50,360
Speaker 1: n R H antagonists and agonists which have been around

2768
02:34:50,480 --> 02:34:54,400
Speaker 1: for like long time, like ever for for I want

2769
02:34:54,440 --> 02:34:55,840
Speaker 1: to say it was like a hundred years, but I

2770
02:34:56,600 --> 02:34:59,640
Speaker 1: might be misquoting something that I'm half remembering, but they've

2771
02:34:59,680 --> 02:35:01,200
Speaker 1: been a down for like a really long time to

2772
02:35:01,240 --> 02:35:03,360
Speaker 1: the point where we have generics and in the in

2773
02:35:03,400 --> 02:35:06,480
Speaker 1: the pharmaceutical industry, that means that it's been like decades

2774
02:35:06,560 --> 02:35:10,120
Speaker 1: at the very least, something that had rigorous testing that

2775
02:35:10,240 --> 02:35:14,520
Speaker 1: has an indication with the FDA for precocious puberty, which

2776
02:35:14,600 --> 02:35:17,840
Speaker 1: just means a person who is usually SIS who for

2777
02:35:17,959 --> 02:35:21,760
Speaker 1: whatever reason has puberty at a very young age. With

2778
02:35:22,120 --> 02:35:24,600
Speaker 1: some of the some of the specific cases that I've

2779
02:35:24,640 --> 02:35:27,360
Speaker 1: seen that that I've that I've looked into, um involved

2780
02:35:27,400 --> 02:35:29,480
Speaker 1: giving puberty blockers to like a three or four year

2781
02:35:29,520 --> 02:35:32,360
Speaker 1: old because their body is trying to undergo puberty. So

2782
02:35:32,520 --> 02:35:34,280
Speaker 1: even the idea of like, oh, well, I don't know

2783
02:35:34,560 --> 02:35:36,960
Speaker 1: this twelve year old being on a puberty blocker for

2784
02:35:37,160 --> 02:35:40,640
Speaker 1: three years, that sounds very dangerous when we have a

2785
02:35:40,720 --> 02:35:43,960
Speaker 1: person over here who was on it for fifteen years

2786
02:35:44,800 --> 02:35:48,320
Speaker 1: with no ill effects, like like no long lasting ill effects. Um,

2787
02:35:48,680 --> 02:35:51,800
Speaker 1: that the idea of anybody describing it as like experimental

2788
02:35:52,080 --> 02:35:57,080
Speaker 1: is absolutely a historic outside of the realm of reality. Yeah,

2789
02:35:57,160 --> 02:36:01,000
Speaker 1: there's it's it's basic anti anti intellectualism, because yeah, we've

2790
02:36:01,040 --> 02:36:04,400
Speaker 1: been giving six children hormone blockers for a long time

2791
02:36:04,520 --> 02:36:08,200
Speaker 1: for early onset puberty, and it turns out they work

2792
02:36:08,240 --> 02:36:11,039
Speaker 1: and they're pretty safe. So yeah, maybe we should give

2793
02:36:11,040 --> 02:36:13,600
Speaker 1: those two trans kids too if they want them. Uh,

2794
02:36:13,920 --> 02:36:15,680
Speaker 1: it seems like something we could at least try and

2795
02:36:15,760 --> 02:36:18,680
Speaker 1: see if it improves mental health. And then it's it's

2796
02:36:18,720 --> 02:36:20,000
Speaker 1: not even a matter that we have to try it.

2797
02:36:20,120 --> 02:36:23,280
Speaker 1: We've been doing it for like almost ten years, like

2798
02:36:23,400 --> 02:36:25,959
Speaker 1: the it was first and think it was like two

2799
02:36:26,000 --> 02:36:28,480
Speaker 1: thousand thirteen. There's a there's a ted talk I use

2800
02:36:28,520 --> 02:36:30,520
Speaker 1: in my class of a of a physician who like

2801
02:36:30,680 --> 02:36:34,280
Speaker 1: pioneered the use of puberty blockers in trans kids and

2802
02:36:34,480 --> 02:36:37,560
Speaker 1: showed that any trans kid who got puberty blockers and

2803
02:36:37,600 --> 02:36:39,959
Speaker 1: then was allowed to undergo the puberty that they desired

2804
02:36:40,000 --> 02:36:43,320
Speaker 1: at an appropriate age, which is actually like fourteen fifteen,

2805
02:36:43,360 --> 02:36:46,000
Speaker 1: at the same time as their peers um. But even

2806
02:36:46,000 --> 02:36:49,400
Speaker 1: if they had to wait till eighteen, the psychological effects

2807
02:36:49,560 --> 02:36:54,320
Speaker 1: of having in appropriate puberty are essentially nullified. They are

2808
02:36:54,360 --> 02:36:58,600
Speaker 1: otherwise psychologically and physically like identical to their their CIS

2809
02:36:58,640 --> 02:37:03,160
Speaker 1: gender peers. So it's like we have actual evidence that

2810
02:37:03,600 --> 02:37:07,840
Speaker 1: it is extremely beneficial and extremely worthwhile, and like the

2811
02:37:08,160 --> 02:37:11,320
Speaker 1: one kind of long term side effect is you might

2812
02:37:11,440 --> 02:37:14,240
Speaker 1: be up to an inch shorter than you otherwise be

2813
02:37:14,920 --> 02:37:18,080
Speaker 1: which is a wildly like problematic like study that was

2814
02:37:18,120 --> 02:37:19,960
Speaker 1: done because like we don't have time machines to know

2815
02:37:20,080 --> 02:37:21,959
Speaker 1: whether or not that work, Like what would your control

2816
02:37:22,000 --> 02:37:26,720
Speaker 1: group be? Um, And it's just wild. It's very bothersome

2817
02:37:26,800 --> 02:37:29,920
Speaker 1: to me because a lot of the gender affirming hormone therapy,

2818
02:37:30,360 --> 02:37:32,400
Speaker 1: the evidence is all over the place for a variety

2819
02:37:32,440 --> 02:37:36,920
Speaker 1: of political reasons and historical reasons. But for hormone blockers

2820
02:37:37,120 --> 02:37:43,720
Speaker 1: or for puberty blockers specifically, the evidence is like really solid,

2821
02:37:43,959 --> 02:37:47,960
Speaker 1: really strong, and it's, ah, this is the question I

2822
02:37:47,959 --> 02:37:50,880
Speaker 1: actually have because I'm actually unfamiliar with this specific thing.

2823
02:37:51,160 --> 02:37:54,040
Speaker 1: But yeah, if you give like, um, hormone blockers to

2824
02:37:54,800 --> 02:37:58,000
Speaker 1: like a kid who's tend they still kind of like

2825
02:37:58,959 --> 02:38:01,640
Speaker 1: grow at the same rate as a lot of as

2826
02:38:01,680 --> 02:38:05,480
Speaker 1: a lot of their peers, and that is it just

2827
02:38:05,640 --> 02:38:09,080
Speaker 1: it's it's this specifically like the secondary sex characteristic changes

2828
02:38:09,680 --> 02:38:13,600
Speaker 1: that get put on pause. UM. But there's just so

2829
02:38:13,800 --> 02:38:17,600
Speaker 1: much Yeah, there's just so much fear around the even

2830
02:38:17,720 --> 02:38:19,880
Speaker 1: even just the hormone blocker thing. Right when we're getting

2831
02:38:20,120 --> 02:38:23,920
Speaker 1: you know, just like prescribing hormone blockers being like a

2832
02:38:23,959 --> 02:38:27,840
Speaker 1: felony offense, and multiple states now you're like, it's like

2833
02:38:28,240 --> 02:38:31,840
Speaker 1: it's it is just an extreme degree of anti anti

2834
02:38:32,040 --> 02:38:37,800
Speaker 1: intellectualism just like just like purposeful like ignorance, um and

2835
02:38:38,000 --> 02:38:43,960
Speaker 1: just extreme hatred and uh bigotry, and it's it is uh,

2836
02:38:44,480 --> 02:38:47,160
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, it's a I'm kind of speaking to

2837
02:38:47,240 --> 02:38:51,040
Speaker 1: the choir here. But but but but that's the trick.

2838
02:38:51,200 --> 02:38:53,000
Speaker 1: And and even like the purity blocker thing, like you

2839
02:38:53,040 --> 02:38:55,720
Speaker 1: were saying, your body will still make human growth hormone,

2840
02:38:55,920 --> 02:38:59,160
Speaker 1: You will still grow, it's just that the modulation of

2841
02:38:59,240 --> 02:39:03,560
Speaker 1: that with testosterone, which would increase the overall growth like

2842
02:39:03,840 --> 02:39:07,240
Speaker 1: just doesn't there. And people say make a lot of

2843
02:39:08,000 --> 02:39:11,160
Speaker 1: you know, talk a lot about the idea of um

2844
02:39:11,600 --> 02:39:15,480
Speaker 1: bone mineral density because you don't have testosterone estrogen, which

2845
02:39:15,520 --> 02:39:18,920
Speaker 1: are both necessary one or the other necessary for your

2846
02:39:19,080 --> 02:39:22,279
Speaker 1: like bone mineral density to not like have like easily

2847
02:39:22,320 --> 02:39:24,800
Speaker 1: fractured bones. But like you don't even have that until

2848
02:39:24,840 --> 02:39:28,240
Speaker 1: you go through puberty. If you're just like preventing one puberty,

2849
02:39:28,320 --> 02:39:31,160
Speaker 1: the endogenous puberty, and then providing the hormones for an

2850
02:39:31,160 --> 02:39:35,720
Speaker 1: exogenous puberty, they're fine, Like they have the hormones they need,

2851
02:39:35,800 --> 02:39:41,120
Speaker 1: their bones are happy. Uh So yeah, I'd like to

2852
02:39:41,120 --> 02:39:44,240
Speaker 1: talk about I guess kind of access to hormones and

2853
02:39:44,959 --> 02:39:48,920
Speaker 1: in like the like the different models of of obviously

2854
02:39:48,959 --> 02:39:52,280
Speaker 1: we're not giving up medical advice, but like access to

2855
02:39:52,360 --> 02:39:55,440
Speaker 1: hormones and the different ways that people can go about

2856
02:39:55,520 --> 02:39:58,879
Speaker 1: that now through doctors, through in form of consent um

2857
02:39:59,200 --> 02:40:02,920
Speaker 1: and all of all and all of that jazz. Yeah,

2858
02:40:03,360 --> 02:40:07,800
Speaker 1: So the informed consent model is a much more recent option,

2859
02:40:08,040 --> 02:40:10,880
Speaker 1: and it's not available everywhere. I have a friend in

2860
02:40:11,000 --> 02:40:12,800
Speaker 1: Texas we had to find a clinic that was like

2861
02:40:12,840 --> 02:40:15,480
Speaker 1: two hours away to get her hormones. But here where

2862
02:40:15,520 --> 02:40:17,960
Speaker 1: I live, we actually have too informed consent clinics, So

2863
02:40:18,040 --> 02:40:22,000
Speaker 1: it's pretty convenient, but it varies wildly by by region. Uh.

2864
02:40:22,080 --> 02:40:24,240
Speaker 1: And the informed care clinics are great. It means you

2865
02:40:24,360 --> 02:40:26,040
Speaker 1: come in, they say this is what's going to happen.

2866
02:40:26,120 --> 02:40:27,800
Speaker 1: Do you still want to do it? You say yes,

2867
02:40:28,240 --> 02:40:30,240
Speaker 1: They take some blood, they run some tests, you come

2868
02:40:30,280 --> 02:40:32,080
Speaker 1: back in two weeks, and they go here. You go

2869
02:40:32,600 --> 02:40:36,160
Speaker 1: like that's They work really well depending on the clinic,

2870
02:40:36,200 --> 02:40:39,560
Speaker 1: I guess and uh, but the more traditional quote unquote

2871
02:40:39,879 --> 02:40:42,480
Speaker 1: standard model would be going to your pc P or

2872
02:40:42,879 --> 02:40:44,480
Speaker 1: or whoever and saying that you want to do this,

2873
02:40:44,920 --> 02:40:50,560
Speaker 1: which makes most of them very concerned because most physicians, pharmacist, nurses,

2874
02:40:51,160 --> 02:40:54,640
Speaker 1: they don't get taught anything about trans people, are caring

2875
02:40:54,720 --> 02:40:57,800
Speaker 1: for trans people or gender affirming hormone therapy in their

2876
02:40:57,840 --> 02:41:01,200
Speaker 1: school like, so they have nothing to fall back back on. Uh.

2877
02:41:01,800 --> 02:41:04,160
Speaker 1: So that makes them very nervous to do it. And

2878
02:41:04,320 --> 02:41:07,240
Speaker 1: then UH, if you if you look at gosh, I

2879
02:41:07,640 --> 02:41:10,080
Speaker 1: really want to tell you about the guideline stuff at

2880
02:41:10,160 --> 02:41:13,959
Speaker 1: some point here because it is buck wild um as

2881
02:41:14,000 --> 02:41:16,200
Speaker 1: to why that would be a concern. But another part

2882
02:41:16,240 --> 02:41:19,040
Speaker 1: of it is is also the insurance you know, America's

2883
02:41:19,040 --> 02:41:22,400
Speaker 1: original sin in our healthcare dystopia, if you will. Uh,

2884
02:41:22,680 --> 02:41:27,520
Speaker 1: the insurances historically have required and part of this is

2885
02:41:27,560 --> 02:41:30,840
Speaker 1: also from antiquated guidelines that has been somewhat like just

2886
02:41:31,000 --> 02:41:34,320
Speaker 1: grandfathered into excuse the term, uh, this idea of like

2887
02:41:34,360 --> 02:41:35,600
Speaker 1: we you have to go to a therapist, if you

2888
02:41:35,640 --> 02:41:37,320
Speaker 1: go to a psychologist, and they have to say that

2889
02:41:37,360 --> 02:41:39,040
Speaker 1: you have gendered dystoria, that's why it's in the d

2890
02:41:39,240 --> 02:41:42,520
Speaker 1: s M. And then after you do that, some places

2891
02:41:42,560 --> 02:41:46,720
Speaker 1: require you to socially transition before getting hormones or anything,

2892
02:41:46,800 --> 02:41:50,560
Speaker 1: which can be extremely problematic for some individuals. That just

2893
02:41:50,879 --> 02:41:54,480
Speaker 1: increases like visibility and bullying and and such in a

2894
02:41:54,600 --> 02:41:57,440
Speaker 1: way that it may drive people. It's it's sort of

2895
02:41:57,800 --> 02:42:00,840
Speaker 1: was intentionally required back in the day to drive people

2896
02:42:01,000 --> 02:42:04,480
Speaker 1: to not want hormones anymore. And it's all of these

2897
02:42:04,560 --> 02:42:07,280
Speaker 1: gate keeping steps. And it's even worse if you wanted

2898
02:42:07,280 --> 02:42:10,360
Speaker 1: to get a surgery later on, where you have to

2899
02:42:10,920 --> 02:42:13,200
Speaker 1: have been on hormones for a certain length of time,

2900
02:42:13,240 --> 02:42:17,480
Speaker 1: you have to have two different generally like susgender right.

2901
02:42:17,840 --> 02:42:21,280
Speaker 1: Healthcare practitioners who don't necessarily understand like the full like

2902
02:42:21,520 --> 02:42:24,440
Speaker 1: everything that's going on, write you letters before. The most

2903
02:42:24,480 --> 02:42:28,520
Speaker 1: insurances up until recently wouldn't even cover it. So it's

2904
02:42:28,600 --> 02:42:31,320
Speaker 1: just gate keeping step after gate keeping step. Because even

2905
02:42:31,440 --> 02:42:34,200
Speaker 1: the big guidelines, which is w PATH, which is about

2906
02:42:34,200 --> 02:42:36,960
Speaker 1: to put out their so gate guidelines. Um, there's a

2907
02:42:37,040 --> 02:42:40,000
Speaker 1: guidelines out of San Francisco, and the Endocrine Society has

2908
02:42:40,000 --> 02:42:44,039
Speaker 1: guidelines from two seventeen that are but all of those

2909
02:42:44,520 --> 02:42:48,240
Speaker 1: are made by cisgender people, usually with the intent to

2910
02:42:48,360 --> 02:42:51,880
Speaker 1: gate keep this care because it's either they're uncomfortable with it,

2911
02:42:51,920 --> 02:42:54,080
Speaker 1: because they're unfamiliar with it, they have some kind of

2912
02:42:54,160 --> 02:42:59,600
Speaker 1: ideological reason to be against it, or whatever whatever else.

2913
02:42:59,680 --> 02:43:01,920
Speaker 1: There's a survey that I often quote to my students

2914
02:43:01,959 --> 02:43:05,520
Speaker 1: in class that, Um, they surveyed a whole bunch of

2915
02:43:06,000 --> 02:43:09,720
Speaker 1: trans individuals trying to get care from their physicians, and

2916
02:43:10,400 --> 02:43:13,720
Speaker 1: it was nearly a quarter of them said that they

2917
02:43:13,760 --> 02:43:18,840
Speaker 1: avoided healthcare because of discrimination, and half of them reported

2918
02:43:18,879 --> 02:43:21,680
Speaker 1: having to teach their health care practitioner how to care

2919
02:43:21,760 --> 02:43:26,120
Speaker 1: for them, which is wild. Like imagine going to the

2920
02:43:26,200 --> 02:43:29,199
Speaker 1: hospital with like heart failure and having to like talk

2921
02:43:29,320 --> 02:43:32,240
Speaker 1: your physician through how to care for you. Can you

2922
02:43:32,440 --> 02:43:34,520
Speaker 1: can you live for two years with heart failure first?

2923
02:43:34,640 --> 02:43:39,480
Speaker 1: Before we go, Oh my gosh, could you imagine if

2924
02:43:39,520 --> 02:43:41,240
Speaker 1: we treated other things this way? I'd be like, well,

2925
02:43:41,480 --> 02:43:44,360
Speaker 1: are you sure that you have diabetes? Are you sure

2926
02:43:44,520 --> 02:43:47,760
Speaker 1: that you're? Like, well, we can't treat your diabetes you're

2927
02:43:47,800 --> 02:43:50,560
Speaker 1: too fat, Well, your b m I is too high,

2928
02:43:50,640 --> 02:43:53,520
Speaker 1: so we can't give you the insulin. Like, give me

2929
02:43:53,600 --> 02:43:59,279
Speaker 1: a break. What is happening? Uh? It seems like, uh, basically,

2930
02:43:59,440 --> 02:44:01,680
Speaker 1: what you're is that we got a good system. We

2931
02:44:01,760 --> 02:44:04,520
Speaker 1: gotta oh, we gotta figure it out. Absolutely no notes

2932
02:44:06,240 --> 02:44:12,959
Speaker 1: perfect and every well that does it for us today? Here? Uh? Well,

2933
02:44:13,400 --> 02:44:16,560
Speaker 1: specifically if I could, Um, it's really interesting from like

2934
02:44:16,640 --> 02:44:20,640
Speaker 1: the healthcare perspective because from you know, the practitioners perspective,

2935
02:44:20,680 --> 02:44:24,080
Speaker 1: because there's essentially two kinds of like treatment. There's guideline

2936
02:44:24,080 --> 02:44:27,200
Speaker 1: based medicine and evidence based medicine. And a lot of schools,

2937
02:44:27,280 --> 02:44:29,920
Speaker 1: like my school teaches a lot of guideline based medicine,

2938
02:44:29,959 --> 02:44:33,400
Speaker 1: which is for something like hypertension or diabetes, is put

2939
02:44:33,440 --> 02:44:36,480
Speaker 1: out by like large organizations with a ton of evidence.

2940
02:44:36,520 --> 02:44:39,640
Speaker 1: It is actually like pretty reasonable. But that means that

2941
02:44:39,680 --> 02:44:42,160
Speaker 1: if you're going along with what they say, that means

2942
02:44:42,200 --> 02:44:45,920
Speaker 1: that you believe that they read those studies correctly and

2943
02:44:46,360 --> 02:44:50,160
Speaker 1: that their interpretation is in no way compromised by like

2944
02:44:50,920 --> 02:44:56,119
Speaker 1: sources of their income, say, and that those guidelines actually

2945
02:44:56,240 --> 02:44:57,960
Speaker 1: match your patients. So it's a lot of assumptions that

2946
02:44:58,000 --> 02:45:01,000
Speaker 1: you're making, which can be extremely pro ablematic an evidence

2947
02:45:01,080 --> 02:45:03,520
Speaker 1: based is where you dive into literature and you figure

2948
02:45:03,520 --> 02:45:06,080
Speaker 1: it out yourself, which is very time consuming and requires

2949
02:45:06,080 --> 02:45:09,360
Speaker 1: an awful lot of like professional uh, like you know,

2950
02:45:10,000 --> 02:45:12,720
Speaker 1: criticism in a way. Uh, but when you look at

2951
02:45:12,760 --> 02:45:16,680
Speaker 1: it for for trans care, for for gender affirming hormone therapy,

2952
02:45:17,320 --> 02:45:21,160
Speaker 1: those guidelines are unbelievably compromised. To give you an example,

2953
02:45:22,000 --> 02:45:26,280
Speaker 1: a hotly contested issue in feminizing therapy is the use

2954
02:45:26,320 --> 02:45:30,800
Speaker 1: of micronized progesterone in feminizing care. Uh, it's kind of

2955
02:45:30,920 --> 02:45:32,960
Speaker 1: like all over the place. There's a long history of

2956
02:45:33,040 --> 02:45:38,320
Speaker 1: it of this controversy. In the upcoming w path socate

2957
02:45:38,400 --> 02:45:42,320
Speaker 1: guidelines that I had like a preliminary copy to to

2958
02:45:42,440 --> 02:45:46,240
Speaker 1: provide notes on there, there's a single statement that just

2959
02:45:46,360 --> 02:45:50,480
Speaker 1: says that there's a controversy that exists and you should

2960
02:45:50,520 --> 02:45:53,879
Speaker 1: not use micronized progesterone and transfiminine care. And they list

2961
02:45:53,959 --> 02:45:57,320
Speaker 1: a study. Okay, if you pull up that study, the

2962
02:45:57,440 --> 02:46:02,520
Speaker 1: title of it is progesterone is important for transgender Women's therapy.

2963
02:46:03,000 --> 02:46:07,560
Speaker 1: Applying evidence for the benefits of progesterone insists women. And

2964
02:46:07,680 --> 02:46:12,360
Speaker 1: it is like a pretty long document that concludes that

2965
02:46:12,480 --> 02:46:15,520
Speaker 1: it is like an ethical imperative to offer it. So

2966
02:46:15,640 --> 02:46:17,320
Speaker 1: the idea that the people who are writing the w

2967
02:46:17,480 --> 02:46:20,760
Speaker 1: PATH guidelines read this article, read this this like meta

2968
02:46:20,760 --> 02:46:23,600
Speaker 1: analysis and went, yeah, I don't really agree with any

2969
02:46:23,640 --> 02:46:29,240
Speaker 1: of that. I'm just gonna say no, is just so infuriating. Again,

2970
02:46:29,320 --> 02:46:33,040
Speaker 1: that seems like we've got a good system going here. Yeah, no, notes,

2971
02:46:33,400 --> 02:46:35,560
Speaker 1: I guess on that note, let's do what did discuss

2972
02:46:35,800 --> 02:46:36,960
Speaker 1: some of the some of the things that an't talking

2973
02:46:36,959 --> 02:46:41,359
Speaker 1: about as much as like um antiandrogen's, uh, progesterone spiro

2974
02:46:42,080 --> 02:46:43,959
Speaker 1: and what all kind of those do and how they

2975
02:46:44,000 --> 02:46:50,200
Speaker 1: can kind of supplement a regular estradial regimen regiment regiment. Yes,

2976
02:46:50,360 --> 02:46:54,760
Speaker 1: that sounds that sounds fancy. Sure, sure, So generally speaking,

2977
02:46:54,800 --> 02:46:57,320
Speaker 1: if you're maybe you give a baseline for for folks

2978
02:46:57,360 --> 02:47:00,320
Speaker 1: who are unaware. The way that we do feminizing arapy

2979
02:47:00,520 --> 02:47:04,520
Speaker 1: is we offer estra dial, which is a bioequivalent version

2980
02:47:04,640 --> 02:47:07,200
Speaker 1: of E two, because there's like three different versions of

2981
02:47:07,320 --> 02:47:11,680
Speaker 1: estro of estrogen UM and an antiandrogen because testosterone tends

2982
02:47:11,720 --> 02:47:14,200
Speaker 1: to be somewhat of an overriding hormone. The presence of

2983
02:47:14,240 --> 02:47:16,840
Speaker 1: testosterone will override the effects of estrogen to a certain

2984
02:47:16,879 --> 02:47:19,520
Speaker 1: extent depending on doses and stuff like that, which is

2985
02:47:19,879 --> 02:47:23,600
Speaker 1: for the transmasculine individuals, why we just give testosterone. It

2986
02:47:23,720 --> 02:47:27,600
Speaker 1: just does the job. You don't need to block the estrogen. Uh.

2987
02:47:27,840 --> 02:47:31,160
Speaker 1: So there's a you know, there's a lot of history

2988
02:47:31,360 --> 02:47:34,400
Speaker 1: and just those hormones as well that we could talk about,

2989
02:47:34,480 --> 02:47:37,800
Speaker 1: like conjugated estrogens versus estra dial and and all the

2990
02:47:37,840 --> 02:47:40,840
Speaker 1: different other stuff. But for the antiandrogens that we give

2991
02:47:41,080 --> 02:47:44,160
Speaker 1: Historically in this country we give spironal lactone, which is

2992
02:47:44,400 --> 02:47:47,879
Speaker 1: a mineral corticoid. It's a potassium sparing diuretic, and it's

2993
02:47:47,920 --> 02:47:50,720
Speaker 1: just really good at higher levels. We usually use it

2994
02:47:50,800 --> 02:47:53,360
Speaker 1: in like cardio issues, like it can be used for

2995
02:47:53,400 --> 02:47:57,480
Speaker 1: like hypertensions and other things. Um, I believe it makes

2996
02:47:57,520 --> 02:48:02,040
Speaker 1: you pee a lot, So it's a diuretic, meaning that

2997
02:48:02,160 --> 02:48:03,880
Speaker 1: it makes you urinate an awful lot. And it's a

2998
02:48:03,920 --> 02:48:07,720
Speaker 1: potassium sparing because it prevents your body from eliminating potassium.

2999
02:48:08,360 --> 02:48:13,800
Speaker 1: So uh well, so that is that's the thing that

3000
02:48:13,879 --> 02:48:16,320
Speaker 1: I think is really really wild because you're using these

3001
02:48:16,400 --> 02:48:20,080
Speaker 1: high levels of it. It is preventing your production of

3002
02:48:20,200 --> 02:48:24,240
Speaker 1: your endogenous production of testosterone and making you pee all

3003
02:48:24,320 --> 02:48:27,880
Speaker 1: of the time, which spoilers estradial also makes you pay

3004
02:48:27,920 --> 02:48:31,000
Speaker 1: more often. So like that's a real fun combination. But

3005
02:48:31,320 --> 02:48:33,959
Speaker 1: then physicians, if they don't know what the heck they're doing,

3006
02:48:34,360 --> 02:48:36,800
Speaker 1: they might say something like, well, you can't eat any bananas,

3007
02:48:37,200 --> 02:48:41,480
Speaker 1: and like, historically the people who are on feminizing therapy

3008
02:48:41,640 --> 02:48:44,440
Speaker 1: are healthy enough that their body just accommodates for it.

3009
02:48:45,120 --> 02:48:48,040
Speaker 1: And if you have hyper kelmia, which is like too

3010
02:48:48,120 --> 02:48:51,160
Speaker 1: much potassium, you're gonna know, like your muscles are gonna ache,

3011
02:48:51,200 --> 02:48:52,640
Speaker 1: and there's gonna be a lot of like tell teal

3012
02:48:52,680 --> 02:48:56,080
Speaker 1: side effects. Usually it's only a problem if you are

3013
02:48:56,400 --> 02:49:00,800
Speaker 1: like only consuming a like salt alternative that has potassium

3014
02:49:00,840 --> 02:49:05,920
Speaker 1: instead of sodium, which is not super common, not super common,

3015
02:49:06,840 --> 02:49:09,360
Speaker 1: or if you have some other reason why your body

3016
02:49:09,480 --> 02:49:13,440
Speaker 1: is like holding onto potassium. Um, So it's not usually

3017
02:49:13,560 --> 02:49:17,640
Speaker 1: an issue. Uh, it's an inspiral actone isn't sufficient for everyone.

3018
02:49:17,720 --> 02:49:20,520
Speaker 1: There's plenty of people who have like refractory testosterone after

3019
02:49:20,640 --> 02:49:23,640
Speaker 1: some time, and there's some other options. Uh. There's kind

3020
02:49:23,720 --> 02:49:26,720
Speaker 1: of a weird controversy about it that is sort of

3021
02:49:26,800 --> 02:49:29,440
Speaker 1: heralded by the San Francisco guidelines. I mentioned earlier that

3022
02:49:29,800 --> 02:49:33,400
Speaker 1: spironal actone uh leads to Okay, well, I want to

3023
02:49:33,440 --> 02:49:35,360
Speaker 1: make sure I get the wording right. It's leads to

3024
02:49:35,520 --> 02:49:40,320
Speaker 1: premature fusing of the breast bud uh and overall smaller

3025
02:49:40,440 --> 02:49:44,200
Speaker 1: breast size, which the document that they cite for that

3026
02:49:44,600 --> 02:49:47,920
Speaker 1: is a real weird retrospective study from like a bunch

3027
02:49:48,000 --> 02:49:50,720
Speaker 1: of years ago on the rate of trans women getting

3028
02:49:50,760 --> 02:49:53,920
Speaker 1: breast augmentation, and it found that the vast majority of

3029
02:49:53,959 --> 02:49:57,879
Speaker 1: trans women who were on spirontal actone got breast dogment great,

3030
02:49:58,800 --> 02:50:02,400
Speaker 1: but the problem is like of their sample group of

3031
02:50:02,520 --> 02:50:05,720
Speaker 1: like two people, almost all of them were on spur

3032
02:50:05,800 --> 02:50:10,039
Speaker 1: on elactone, Like there's like a sampling error, Like it's

3033
02:50:10,120 --> 02:50:13,640
Speaker 1: not it's very silly. Um And also even like that

3034
02:50:13,720 --> 02:50:16,200
Speaker 1: premature fusing in the breastbed. I have never been able

3035
02:50:16,280 --> 02:50:20,840
Speaker 1: to find anything that suggests that that's a thing or

3036
02:50:20,959 --> 02:50:24,720
Speaker 1: even like a way to explain what that statement even means.

3037
02:50:25,840 --> 02:50:28,600
Speaker 1: But the San Francisco guidelines, to go back to the

3038
02:50:28,680 --> 02:50:32,039
Speaker 1: my guideline thing actually says, has some like maybe don't

3039
02:50:32,120 --> 02:50:33,959
Speaker 1: use spur on a lactone, even though it's something we've

3040
02:50:33,959 --> 02:50:37,480
Speaker 1: been using since literally like the fifties or sixties for

3041
02:50:37,560 --> 02:50:41,160
Speaker 1: this purpose. In other countries, you'll use what's called cyprotorone,

3042
02:50:41,280 --> 02:50:44,879
Speaker 1: which is a synthetic progesterone, but it's not actually approved

3043
02:50:44,959 --> 02:50:48,280
Speaker 1: in the States because it has a like there is

3044
02:50:48,320 --> 02:50:51,959
Speaker 1: actually some evidence that it causes increase in certain specific cancers,

3045
02:50:52,000 --> 02:50:54,360
Speaker 1: but it's like a pretty limited overall risk, Like it's

3046
02:50:54,400 --> 02:50:57,480
Speaker 1: not like something like you know, going outside increases your

3047
02:50:57,520 --> 02:50:59,480
Speaker 1: risk of cancer. It's it's not like a huge deal,

3048
02:50:59,720 --> 02:51:01,920
Speaker 1: but it was enough that they don't it's not approved

3049
02:51:01,959 --> 02:51:03,600
Speaker 1: in the States, but in a lot of other countries

3050
02:51:03,920 --> 02:51:07,040
Speaker 1: you might get cyprotarone, which there's a lot of you know,

3051
02:51:07,320 --> 02:51:11,000
Speaker 1: controversy around that too for those reasons. UM. Here, the

3052
02:51:11,160 --> 02:51:14,560
Speaker 1: other option that we usually see is finasteride, which is

3053
02:51:15,200 --> 02:51:18,879
Speaker 1: a five alpha reductation inhibitor that essentially is preventing testosterone

3054
02:51:18,920 --> 02:51:23,520
Speaker 1: from being turned into dihydro testosterone, which we use normally

3055
02:51:23,879 --> 02:51:28,040
Speaker 1: for UM to prevent quote unquote male pattern baldness and

3056
02:51:28,320 --> 02:51:31,920
Speaker 1: in higher doses for prostate cancer because it's real good

3057
02:51:32,200 --> 02:51:35,400
Speaker 1: at because it like reverses some of the feedback loops

3058
02:51:35,800 --> 02:51:40,760
Speaker 1: just reducing product testosterone production. UM. So it's just fine

3059
02:51:40,959 --> 02:51:43,080
Speaker 1: like that one has like very limited side effects, but

3060
02:51:43,120 --> 02:51:48,439
Speaker 1: it might not have as substantial of a UM reduction

3061
02:51:48,480 --> 02:51:52,720
Speaker 1: of testosterone that spiral lactone does. UH. And then the

3062
02:51:52,840 --> 02:51:55,360
Speaker 1: kind of third one that we really we don't see

3063
02:51:55,480 --> 02:51:57,480
Speaker 1: very often but there's a lot of interesting evidence about

3064
02:51:57,600 --> 02:52:01,920
Speaker 1: is called bicaludamide. It's also a UH prostate cancer medication.

3065
02:52:02,160 --> 02:52:04,880
Speaker 1: It actually blocks all of the receptors of testosterone in

3066
02:52:04,920 --> 02:52:08,320
Speaker 1: your body while not reducing the production of it. So

3067
02:52:08,440 --> 02:52:11,039
Speaker 1: you'll see a person who has like you know, they

3068
02:52:11,120 --> 02:52:13,920
Speaker 1: have like seven hundred there their testosterone comes back is

3069
02:52:13,959 --> 02:52:18,280
Speaker 1: like seven six whatever, But they're entirely feminized because none

3070
02:52:18,320 --> 02:52:20,440
Speaker 1: of it has anywhere to work. Um. But the problem

3071
02:52:20,480 --> 02:52:23,640
Speaker 1: with that is by plutamide being an anti cancer med uh,

3072
02:52:23,959 --> 02:52:27,720
Speaker 1: primarily is ridiculously expensive. I think it's like fifty bucks

3073
02:52:27,760 --> 02:52:32,280
Speaker 1: a dose or something like here, it's so great, uh,

3074
02:52:33,879 --> 02:52:36,360
Speaker 1: I will say, and and for my gender queers out

3075
02:52:36,400 --> 02:52:38,960
Speaker 1: there or any anyone else. So you can also just

3076
02:52:39,040 --> 02:52:41,920
Speaker 1: take estrogen without any without any blockers UM and you

3077
02:52:42,040 --> 02:52:45,000
Speaker 1: still get results as I can, as I can confirm

3078
02:52:45,680 --> 02:52:48,680
Speaker 1: UM and for a subset of the population, just taking

3079
02:52:48,840 --> 02:52:52,400
Speaker 1: estrogen A sufficient dosages will also reduce your levels of

3080
02:52:52,480 --> 02:52:57,280
Speaker 1: progester of testosterone. Like it's your body knows what it's doing.

3081
02:52:58,320 --> 02:53:01,000
Speaker 1: Is it is? It is? It is pretty cool. How

3082
02:53:01,879 --> 02:53:05,039
Speaker 1: but you can just change things up in your body

3083
02:53:05,120 --> 02:53:07,880
Speaker 1: is like, oh, we're doing this now, Okay, got it? Great?

3084
02:53:07,920 --> 02:53:13,200
Speaker 1: I have all these mechanisms. It's wonderful. It was that

3085
02:53:13,480 --> 02:53:15,720
Speaker 1: That wraps up part one of our little two part

3086
02:53:15,800 --> 02:53:20,440
Speaker 1: series of episodes talking about hormone replacement therapy. Tomorrow, I'll

3087
02:53:20,440 --> 02:53:23,680
Speaker 1: talk more about access to gender affirming treatment and touch

3088
02:53:23,760 --> 02:53:27,000
Speaker 1: on d I y h R T special thanks to

3089
02:53:27,280 --> 02:53:31,440
Speaker 1: Dr Victoria Luna Brennan Grieve for chatting with me about

3090
02:53:31,520 --> 02:53:35,120
Speaker 1: gender affirming hormonal treatment. You'll get to hear more of

3091
02:53:35,160 --> 02:53:39,080
Speaker 1: my discussion with her tomorrow as well, including a brief

3092
02:53:39,120 --> 02:53:42,200
Speaker 1: tangent about the Scythian priestesses, which I was it was very,

3093
02:53:42,320 --> 02:53:45,320
Speaker 1: very very excited to talk about, but that doesn't for

3094
02:53:45,400 --> 02:53:47,600
Speaker 1: us today. You can follow this show at Happen to

3095
02:53:47,640 --> 02:53:50,439
Speaker 1: Hear pod and Cool Zone Media on Twitter and Instagram,

3096
02:53:50,920 --> 02:53:53,760
Speaker 1: and you can look at my late night gender tweets

3097
02:53:53,920 --> 02:53:57,600
Speaker 1: at Hungry about Tie on Twitter dot com. So see

3098
02:53:57,640 --> 02:54:16,320
Speaker 1: you all on the other side. Welcome back to It

3099
02:54:16,480 --> 02:54:19,480
Speaker 1: Could Happen here, the podcast about things falling apart and

3100
02:54:19,600 --> 02:54:23,240
Speaker 1: sometimes how we can put things back together. I'm Garrison Davis,

3101
02:54:23,520 --> 02:54:26,959
Speaker 1: Aspiring Rebus, and this is part two of my little

3102
02:54:27,000 --> 02:54:31,800
Speaker 1: two part series talking about trans hormone replacement therapy. Last episode,

3103
02:54:31,879 --> 02:54:35,840
Speaker 1: we discussed what HRT is, it's various benefits as gender

3104
02:54:35,879 --> 02:54:40,359
Speaker 1: affirming treatment, and the informed consent model of receiving hormones.

3105
02:54:41,200 --> 02:54:43,640
Speaker 1: Before we continue on with my discussion with Dr Grieve,

3106
02:54:44,080 --> 02:54:46,560
Speaker 1: I would like to talk a bit more about informed consent.

3107
02:54:47,320 --> 02:54:50,320
Speaker 1: So the informed consent option can be great for many

3108
02:54:50,440 --> 02:54:53,400
Speaker 1: many people as an attempts to bypass some of the

3109
02:54:53,720 --> 02:54:58,560
Speaker 1: red tape around receiving gender reforming healthcare. For its form

3110
02:54:58,600 --> 02:55:00,640
Speaker 1: of consent, all you gotta do is set u an appointment,

3111
02:55:01,000 --> 02:55:03,720
Speaker 1: signed the forms, maybe get some blood work done, and

3112
02:55:03,800 --> 02:55:06,040
Speaker 1: then pick up your hormones. Right. You don't need to

3113
02:55:06,200 --> 02:55:09,560
Speaker 1: live as trans for like two years or have letters

3114
02:55:09,600 --> 02:55:12,360
Speaker 1: and therapists. It's it is. It is just up to you,

3115
02:55:13,200 --> 02:55:15,119
Speaker 1: so it is. It is really convenient if you can

3116
02:55:15,400 --> 02:55:17,920
Speaker 1: get that option. Some places even let you do it

3117
02:55:18,280 --> 02:55:21,160
Speaker 1: via telemedicine appointments, so you can just sit at home

3118
02:55:21,320 --> 02:55:24,320
Speaker 1: holding your little I keya shark and then get your hormones,

3119
02:55:24,440 --> 02:55:28,360
Speaker 1: which does sound very very nice. Planned Parenthood offers informed

3120
02:55:28,400 --> 02:55:31,160
Speaker 1: consent trans health care in many states, and in the

3121
02:55:31,240 --> 02:55:33,760
Speaker 1: show notes I will link a Google map of the

3122
02:55:33,840 --> 02:55:38,240
Speaker 1: informed consent clinics from across the country. Depending on your insurance,

3123
02:55:38,320 --> 02:55:40,680
Speaker 1: you can get hormones for a little to no extra cost.

3124
02:55:40,840 --> 02:55:44,320
Speaker 1: This way it can be really convenient. The biggest asterisk

3125
02:55:44,520 --> 02:55:47,960
Speaker 1: for informed consent is that since it's based on you know,

3126
02:55:48,280 --> 02:55:52,360
Speaker 1: informed consent, it often is just for humans age eight

3127
02:55:52,480 --> 02:55:56,600
Speaker 1: teen and older, or sometimes teens a few years younger,

3128
02:55:57,360 --> 02:56:01,720
Speaker 1: but only if their parents or guardians signed the forms. Obviously,

3129
02:56:01,800 --> 02:56:04,560
Speaker 1: this is not ideal for a sixteen year old with

3130
02:56:04,760 --> 02:56:07,960
Speaker 1: transphobic parents, who would really be helped by receiving like

3131
02:56:08,120 --> 02:56:11,840
Speaker 1: hormone blockers or something, right. Another potential drawback is that

3132
02:56:12,000 --> 02:56:15,360
Speaker 1: the clinics can sometimes have quite the wait list. I

3133
02:56:15,480 --> 02:56:18,280
Speaker 1: started off with the informed consent model because it was

3134
02:56:18,560 --> 02:56:21,760
Speaker 1: the easiest, but by the time I needed more blood

3135
02:56:21,800 --> 02:56:25,280
Speaker 1: work done and my prescription refilled, setting up more appointments

3136
02:56:25,320 --> 02:56:28,640
Speaker 1: that planned parenthood became kind of a nightmare. I was

3137
02:56:28,720 --> 02:56:32,520
Speaker 1: continuously having appointments being canceled on me last minute and

3138
02:56:32,640 --> 02:56:36,000
Speaker 1: just getting pushed back months and months into the future. Eventually,

3139
02:56:36,080 --> 02:56:38,640
Speaker 1: I just resorted to getting hormones through my regular doctor

3140
02:56:38,840 --> 02:56:42,040
Speaker 1: instead of just continuing on within formed consent. Now, this

3141
02:56:42,200 --> 02:56:44,960
Speaker 1: is obviously a regional issue, right. I don't know what

3142
02:56:45,080 --> 02:56:48,280
Speaker 1: it's like in Florida, for example, but the COVID andeen

3143
02:56:48,320 --> 02:56:51,000
Speaker 1: pandemic has stressed a lot of the medical infrastructure here

3144
02:56:51,040 --> 02:56:54,320
Speaker 1: in the States, and scheduling some appointments in these clinics

3145
02:56:54,480 --> 02:56:58,720
Speaker 1: can be still quite challenging. And as you know, a

3146
02:56:58,800 --> 02:57:01,600
Speaker 1: big theme of this show is that maybe we shouldn't

3147
02:57:01,640 --> 02:57:05,480
Speaker 1: assume the structures that hold up our society are concrete,

3148
02:57:05,640 --> 02:57:09,480
Speaker 1: permanent fixtures. The term the crumbles that we used to

3149
02:57:09,560 --> 02:57:13,000
Speaker 1: describe the slow deterioration of the systems that we rely on,

3150
02:57:13,640 --> 02:57:16,560
Speaker 1: was initially coined in reference to our medical system by

3151
02:57:16,600 --> 02:57:18,920
Speaker 1: a friend of the show who works in the medical field.

3152
02:57:19,440 --> 02:57:22,120
Speaker 1: Listen to the first five episodes of The Daily Show

3153
02:57:22,280 --> 02:57:25,760
Speaker 1: talking about climate change for more on that. But a

3154
02:57:26,040 --> 02:57:29,440
Speaker 1: part of the criminal's idea is trying to learn how

3155
02:57:29,520 --> 02:57:32,039
Speaker 1: to become less reliant on the systems that we take

3156
02:57:32,080 --> 02:57:35,040
Speaker 1: for granted, right, trying to solve for the fallacy of

3157
02:57:35,160 --> 02:57:39,760
Speaker 1: misplaced concreteness before it's too late. On that note, back

3158
02:57:39,800 --> 02:57:43,520
Speaker 1: to my discussion with Dr Victoria Luna Brendan Grieve, Assistant

3159
02:57:43,520 --> 02:57:47,520
Speaker 1: professor at the University of Pittsburgh School of Pharmacy. For

3160
02:57:47,879 --> 02:57:50,760
Speaker 1: places that are getting, uh, you know, all of these

3161
02:57:50,800 --> 02:57:54,440
Speaker 1: anti trends bills criminalizing all of this stuff for miners,

3162
02:57:54,520 --> 02:57:57,480
Speaker 1: and then you know, eventually maybe even you know, my

3163
02:57:58,040 --> 02:57:59,800
Speaker 1: big fear is that, you know, first off, they're gonna

3164
02:57:59,840 --> 02:58:02,440
Speaker 1: criminalizing it for minors, and they're gonna say the brain's

3165
02:58:02,440 --> 02:58:04,879
Speaker 1: not fully developed, your twenty five, and they're gonna criminalize

3166
02:58:04,879 --> 02:58:06,720
Speaker 1: it until you're twenty five and they're just gonna criminalize

3167
02:58:06,760 --> 02:58:09,760
Speaker 1: it for everyone after that. Um So for all of

3168
02:58:09,840 --> 02:58:12,560
Speaker 1: these places that are making access to healthcare is so

3169
02:58:12,680 --> 02:58:16,000
Speaker 1: much harder, What what is what is one to do?

3170
02:58:16,280 --> 02:58:18,800
Speaker 1: Like if these if there's these kids and then even

3171
02:58:18,840 --> 02:58:20,720
Speaker 1: adults who are like just find it so much harder

3172
02:58:20,760 --> 02:58:24,320
Speaker 1: to get stuff. Like I know there's the informed consent clinics,

3173
02:58:24,400 --> 02:58:26,320
Speaker 1: but there's there's like there's like a few in Texas,

3174
02:58:26,440 --> 02:58:28,840
Speaker 1: but I don't even know what they can even offer anymore, right,

3175
02:58:28,879 --> 02:58:32,760
Speaker 1: Like it's really unclear. Yeah, well, I'll tell you some

3176
02:58:32,920 --> 02:58:35,840
Speaker 1: of that fear is already becoming reality here in Pennsylvania.

3177
02:58:35,959 --> 02:58:40,040
Speaker 1: Just two days ago HP. I think it was HBO

3178
02:58:40,200 --> 02:58:44,600
Speaker 1: passed by the House in don in Harrisburg that prevents

3179
02:58:45,280 --> 02:58:48,560
Speaker 1: it's a ban on trans people playing sports up through

3180
02:58:48,680 --> 02:58:53,920
Speaker 1: the college level, not just high school and grade school,

3181
02:58:53,959 --> 02:58:58,400
Speaker 1: it's all the way up through you know, secondary education. Uh.

3182
02:58:58,800 --> 02:59:01,240
Speaker 1: And even though our governor like has valve de Vito,

3183
02:59:01,320 --> 02:59:02,880
Speaker 1: it like who even knows what's going to happen. But

3184
02:59:03,520 --> 02:59:07,640
Speaker 1: they're already taking taking aim at this higher level kind

3185
02:59:07,680 --> 02:59:09,280
Speaker 1: of thing. And there's a lot of pressdent for that.

3186
02:59:09,959 --> 02:59:14,360
Speaker 1: But my goodness, if there's a long and storied history

3187
02:59:14,760 --> 02:59:19,120
Speaker 1: of d I Y hormone therapy, and it's easier for

3188
02:59:19,400 --> 02:59:23,240
Speaker 1: the trans feminine individuals because testosterone is actually a scheduled

3189
02:59:23,520 --> 02:59:27,640
Speaker 1: to control I think it it might be a three

3190
02:59:27,840 --> 02:59:31,280
Speaker 1: I think it's scheduled three steroid. I'll write a little

3191
02:59:31,280 --> 02:59:33,360
Speaker 1: thing about it, and I'll say in the episode. And

3192
02:59:33,440 --> 02:59:36,520
Speaker 1: it's such a funny reason too, because it's just you

3193
02:59:36,640 --> 02:59:40,160
Speaker 1: can use it to dope for endurance based like like

3194
02:59:40,280 --> 02:59:44,000
Speaker 1: cycling and running, because it will increase your red blood

3195
02:59:44,040 --> 02:59:47,080
Speaker 1: cell account that's a like. And so it's a controlled

3196
02:59:47,080 --> 02:59:49,879
Speaker 1: substance because people can use it to dope for for exit,

3197
02:59:50,000 --> 02:59:53,240
Speaker 1: for for sports. So it's that's a little bit harder

3198
02:59:53,280 --> 02:59:56,400
Speaker 1: to get ahold of in like a meaningful way. But

3199
02:59:56,480 --> 02:59:59,280
Speaker 1: there are a lot of different allegedly, there are a

3200
02:59:59,320 --> 03:00:01,400
Speaker 1: lot of different place is online that you can acquire

3201
03:00:01,720 --> 03:00:06,200
Speaker 1: estrogen or estra dial relatively easily. Now I'm gonna actually

3202
03:00:06,520 --> 03:00:10,360
Speaker 1: pause the discussion with me and Dr Grieve to talk

3203
03:00:10,400 --> 03:00:12,720
Speaker 1: a little bit about d I Y h R T

3204
03:00:13,240 --> 03:00:16,920
Speaker 1: or for those anti acronym people out there, do it

3205
03:00:17,080 --> 03:00:21,280
Speaker 1: yourself hormone replacement therapy. Again, I'm not a medical doctor.

3206
03:00:21,760 --> 03:00:25,280
Speaker 1: Unless you have a problem regarding parapsychology, I cannot offer

3207
03:00:25,360 --> 03:00:28,080
Speaker 1: you any expertise, but I can talk about d I

3208
03:00:28,240 --> 03:00:30,879
Speaker 1: Y h R T as it's existed for trans people

3209
03:00:31,200 --> 03:00:34,800
Speaker 1: for the past two decades. Because an unfortunate truth is,

3210
03:00:35,160 --> 03:00:37,400
Speaker 1: although it's gotten much easier to get gender affirm and

3211
03:00:37,480 --> 03:00:40,720
Speaker 1: care and hormones the past few years, even in states

3212
03:00:40,800 --> 03:00:43,920
Speaker 1: that aren't facing this wave of anti trans healthcare bills,

3213
03:00:44,440 --> 03:00:48,440
Speaker 1: the medical establishment hasn't been the most trans friendly place

3214
03:00:48,720 --> 03:00:53,039
Speaker 1: in general. A recent Center for American Progress report found

3215
03:00:53,080 --> 03:00:57,400
Speaker 1: that nearly half of transgender people and sixty of transgender

3216
03:00:57,480 --> 03:01:01,160
Speaker 1: people of color reported having experienced to mistreatment at the

3217
03:01:01,240 --> 03:01:05,040
Speaker 1: hands of a medical provider, including refusal of care and

3218
03:01:05,400 --> 03:01:09,280
Speaker 1: verbal or physical abuse, just in the year before the survey,

3219
03:01:09,360 --> 03:01:12,000
Speaker 1: which took place in June, so this is this is

3220
03:01:12,040 --> 03:01:15,200
Speaker 1: still very much an ongoing issue. One in two trans

3221
03:01:15,280 --> 03:01:18,480
Speaker 1: people reported that their access to gender affirming healthcare was

3222
03:01:18,560 --> 03:01:22,280
Speaker 1: curtailed significantly during the pandemic, and nearly one in two

3223
03:01:22,400 --> 03:01:26,120
Speaker 1: transgender adults have had insurance providers denying them coverage for

3224
03:01:26,320 --> 03:01:30,760
Speaker 1: gender affirming care, and very often doctors don't even know

3225
03:01:30,959 --> 03:01:34,720
Speaker 1: how to properly treat transgender patients, and often it's up

3226
03:01:34,760 --> 03:01:37,440
Speaker 1: to the patients to educate the doctors on trans health

3227
03:01:37,480 --> 03:01:41,320
Speaker 1: care issues. The Center for American Progress survey from last

3228
03:01:41,400 --> 03:01:44,640
Speaker 1: year found that one in three trans people report having

3229
03:01:44,680 --> 03:01:47,960
Speaker 1: to teach their doctors about trans people to get them

3230
03:01:48,000 --> 03:01:53,080
Speaker 1: appropriate care, and reported having been asked innovasive or unnecessary

3231
03:01:53,160 --> 03:01:56,280
Speaker 1: questions about being trans which were not related to the

3232
03:01:56,400 --> 03:01:59,640
Speaker 1: reasons for them visiting the doctor. The report cited a

3233
03:01:59,680 --> 03:02:02,400
Speaker 1: twenty eight team brief from the Kaiser Family Foundation that

3234
03:02:02,520 --> 03:02:06,040
Speaker 1: found that more than half of medical school curriculums lack

3235
03:02:06,160 --> 03:02:10,480
Speaker 1: information about unique health issues the LGBTQ community faces, and

3236
03:02:10,600 --> 03:02:14,800
Speaker 1: doesn't cover treatment beyond HIV prevention and care. So obviously,

3237
03:02:14,879 --> 03:02:17,400
Speaker 1: that leaves a lot to be desired for people wanting

3238
03:02:17,440 --> 03:02:22,760
Speaker 1: to receive transgender health care. Between medical mistreatment, insurance complications,

3239
03:02:22,840 --> 03:02:25,640
Speaker 1: and doctor ignorance, many trans folks have taken it upon

3240
03:02:25,680 --> 03:02:28,879
Speaker 1: themselves to get the drug necessary for hormone replacement therapy

3241
03:02:29,280 --> 03:02:32,200
Speaker 1: because the alternative is often just having to face not

3242
03:02:32,360 --> 03:02:34,400
Speaker 1: being able to receive the health care that in many

3243
03:02:34,480 --> 03:02:38,879
Speaker 1: cases makes it possible to live. The Center for American

3244
03:02:38,920 --> 03:02:42,040
Speaker 1: Progress survey found that twenty eight percent of trans folks

3245
03:02:42,400 --> 03:02:47,040
Speaker 1: report having postponed or not gotten necessary medical care for

3246
03:02:47,400 --> 03:02:52,000
Speaker 1: fear of discrimination. Taking your endochronology and hormone treatment into

3247
03:02:52,040 --> 03:02:55,240
Speaker 1: your own hands has a lengthy history and used to

3248
03:02:55,320 --> 03:02:57,680
Speaker 1: be much more common in the days before informed consent.

3249
03:02:59,000 --> 03:03:01,520
Speaker 1: In a survey of trans people in Washington, d c.

3250
03:03:01,879 --> 03:03:05,520
Speaker 1: Circus two thousand, over half of the respondents so that

3251
03:03:05,640 --> 03:03:09,240
Speaker 1: they had used non prescribed hormones also known as d

3252
03:03:09,400 --> 03:03:12,560
Speaker 1: I y h RT. So information on how to go

3253
03:03:12,680 --> 03:03:17,240
Speaker 1: about d I yng your HRT spread via online forums

3254
03:03:17,280 --> 03:03:20,320
Speaker 1: and websites in the early two thousand's, and after some

3255
03:03:20,800 --> 03:03:24,039
Speaker 1: trial and error, the information is kind of consolidated into

3256
03:03:24,080 --> 03:03:27,040
Speaker 1: a few main information hubs, that being the d I

3257
03:03:27,200 --> 03:03:30,760
Speaker 1: y h r T Wiki, HRT dot Cafe, and d

3258
03:03:30,920 --> 03:03:35,400
Speaker 1: I y HRT dot get hub dot io. Now, obviously,

3259
03:03:35,520 --> 03:03:39,280
Speaker 1: when you're getting into taking drugs from online sources, you

3260
03:03:39,360 --> 03:03:41,800
Speaker 1: need to be extremely careful and cautious about what foreign

3261
03:03:41,879 --> 03:03:45,200
Speaker 1: chemicals you're putting into your body, including and trying to

3262
03:03:45,440 --> 03:03:48,720
Speaker 1: only acquire drugs from trustworthy sources, doing drug testing if

3263
03:03:48,760 --> 03:03:51,440
Speaker 1: you can, and doing your own blood testing before and

3264
03:03:51,520 --> 03:03:54,680
Speaker 1: after to keep an eye on your testosterone and estrogen levels.

3265
03:03:55,520 --> 03:03:59,160
Speaker 1: It is possible to order blood tests via online and

3266
03:03:59,680 --> 03:04:01,600
Speaker 1: send it through a lab that you have to ship

3267
03:04:01,640 --> 03:04:04,200
Speaker 1: your blood too, but often it's just easier to do

3268
03:04:04,280 --> 03:04:07,640
Speaker 1: it by going through the medical system. Now, one massive

3269
03:04:07,680 --> 03:04:10,800
Speaker 1: caveat with d y h r T is although it's

3270
03:04:10,840 --> 03:04:14,480
Speaker 1: more straightforward to acquire extra dial and antiandrogen's like spiro

3271
03:04:14,640 --> 03:04:19,280
Speaker 1: from online sources, getting too stosterone for masculinization therapy is

3272
03:04:19,320 --> 03:04:22,400
Speaker 1: much more tricky because in most places it's a restricted drug.

3273
03:04:22,600 --> 03:04:24,800
Speaker 1: Here in the States it is a Schedule three substance,

3274
03:04:25,280 --> 03:04:28,600
Speaker 1: so technically buying it without a prescription would be a

3275
03:04:28,680 --> 03:04:32,000
Speaker 1: felony um. So for this reason, most d I y

3276
03:04:32,200 --> 03:04:35,200
Speaker 1: h r T stuff focuses on feminizing hormones since that

3277
03:04:35,400 --> 03:04:39,279
Speaker 1: is less legally complicated. Now, obviously you know steroids exist,

3278
03:04:39,520 --> 03:04:42,760
Speaker 1: so it is possible to get them, but I will

3279
03:04:42,800 --> 03:04:45,080
Speaker 1: not be giving out guides on how to do that

3280
03:04:45,160 --> 03:04:47,280
Speaker 1: here on the pod, but you know you can. You

3281
03:04:47,440 --> 03:04:51,240
Speaker 1: can look into it if you so desire for feminizing hormones.

3282
03:04:51,360 --> 03:04:54,640
Speaker 1: The main way of going about it requires obtaining bioidentical

3283
03:04:54,800 --> 03:04:58,000
Speaker 1: extra dial. It can come in a few forms pills,

3284
03:04:58,160 --> 03:05:00,640
Speaker 1: which are not difficult to acquire, and assuming you get

3285
03:05:00,640 --> 03:05:02,880
Speaker 1: the dose right, it's pretty easy because it's just a

3286
03:05:02,920 --> 03:05:06,360
Speaker 1: process of dissolving the little pill tablets under your tongue,

3287
03:05:06,959 --> 03:05:10,560
Speaker 1: and that's kind of it, right. Dosage is its own thing,

3288
03:05:10,640 --> 03:05:13,320
Speaker 1: which you can figure out if you do reading, but

3289
03:05:13,879 --> 03:05:18,080
Speaker 1: the actual taking of it is pretty straightforward. Transdermal estrogen

3290
03:05:18,280 --> 03:05:21,840
Speaker 1: or transdermal estra dial is kind of the new hot thing. Uh.

3291
03:05:22,120 --> 03:05:26,400
Speaker 1: Usually this has you taking weakly estra dial patches which

3292
03:05:26,400 --> 03:05:28,960
Speaker 1: you just switch out every week um or you can

3293
03:05:29,000 --> 03:05:31,600
Speaker 1: also do daily gels, which you just rub out your body,

3294
03:05:31,920 --> 03:05:35,680
Speaker 1: although unfortunately for dosing gels it can be more tricky

3295
03:05:35,760 --> 03:05:37,560
Speaker 1: if you go d I Y because it's hard to

3296
03:05:37,879 --> 03:05:40,240
Speaker 1: know what concentration just the jela is if you're just

3297
03:05:40,320 --> 03:05:43,680
Speaker 1: rubbing a sav on yourself. It's not already prepackaged, but

3298
03:05:43,800 --> 03:05:47,280
Speaker 1: the patches are pretty good. And lastly, the classic method

3299
03:05:47,480 --> 03:05:51,320
Speaker 1: is injectable estradial at various concentrations in the form of

3300
03:05:51,440 --> 03:05:56,039
Speaker 1: some oil solution. This can usually be the cheapest option

3301
03:05:56,200 --> 03:05:58,480
Speaker 1: if you can figure out how to buy estra dial

3302
03:05:59,280 --> 03:06:02,160
Speaker 1: and needles. Syringes can be bought at any pharmacy just

3303
03:06:02,280 --> 03:06:05,720
Speaker 1: over the counter in most countries without a prescription. For

3304
03:06:05,840 --> 03:06:09,160
Speaker 1: ferminizing hormones. Some people also take antiandrogen's a k A.

3305
03:06:09,280 --> 03:06:13,520
Speaker 1: Testosterone blockers like spiral lactone, which can be acquired online

3306
03:06:13,840 --> 03:06:16,720
Speaker 1: and are almost always taken orally in the form of

3307
03:06:16,760 --> 03:06:20,480
Speaker 1: a pill. Now, when getting these drugs online, there are

3308
03:06:20,560 --> 03:06:25,000
Speaker 1: two main categories of purchase. There's pharmaceutical grade and home brewed.

3309
03:06:25,520 --> 03:06:29,800
Speaker 1: Pharmaceutical grade refers to HRT produced by legitimate pharmaceutical companies

3310
03:06:30,240 --> 03:06:33,160
Speaker 1: that are licensed and subject to regulation. They should be

3311
03:06:33,280 --> 03:06:36,040
Speaker 1: of the same quality as those found in your local pharmacy,

3312
03:06:36,160 --> 03:06:38,959
Speaker 1: and they can be ordered without a prescription from websites

3313
03:06:39,000 --> 03:06:41,640
Speaker 1: based in countries that allow for the legal exportation of

3314
03:06:41,760 --> 03:06:45,800
Speaker 1: certain medications. These will almost always carry less inherent risk

3315
03:06:46,120 --> 03:06:50,600
Speaker 1: versus receiving and taking home brewed hormones, which leads us

3316
03:06:50,640 --> 03:06:52,960
Speaker 1: to the second version that you can buy, which is

3317
03:06:53,280 --> 03:06:57,480
Speaker 1: home brewed. This refers to HRT produced by individuals by

3318
03:06:57,560 --> 03:07:01,360
Speaker 1: sourcing raw extrodial or whatever other chemical you're taking in

3319
03:07:01,400 --> 03:07:04,680
Speaker 1: the form of a powder, and then compounding the medication themselves.

3320
03:07:05,200 --> 03:07:08,240
Speaker 1: They do not synthesize or from scratch these hormones, but

3321
03:07:08,400 --> 03:07:11,160
Speaker 1: they do use the powdered versions of them, and they

3322
03:07:11,200 --> 03:07:15,680
Speaker 1: get them from sources from drug manufacturing companies to synthesize

3323
03:07:15,800 --> 03:07:19,680
Speaker 1: it into their own estradial or whatever other drug you're taking,

3324
03:07:20,280 --> 03:07:22,720
Speaker 1: you know, in the antiandrogen list, there's there's too many,

3325
03:07:22,959 --> 03:07:25,879
Speaker 1: too many to name. Now. While this this concept does

3326
03:07:26,000 --> 03:07:29,000
Speaker 1: sound scary and it can obviously go wrong if someone's

3327
03:07:29,080 --> 03:07:31,840
Speaker 1: not synthesizing it correctly. Uh, there are a couple of

3328
03:07:31,879 --> 03:07:34,160
Speaker 1: well respected members of the community that have been known

3329
03:07:34,240 --> 03:07:37,920
Speaker 1: to produce high quality and safe HRT medications. But before

3330
03:07:38,040 --> 03:07:41,160
Speaker 1: anyone decides to take drugs that you get on the internet, please, please,

3331
03:07:41,280 --> 03:07:46,320
Speaker 1: please please do lots of reading beforehand on on dosage effects,

3332
03:07:46,480 --> 03:07:50,040
Speaker 1: side effects, and be very cautious with your drug sourcing,

3333
03:07:50,240 --> 03:07:52,640
Speaker 1: right you should know who you're buying it from. You

3334
03:07:52,680 --> 03:07:54,880
Speaker 1: don't want to just buy from whatever it's catchy website.

3335
03:07:54,879 --> 03:07:58,000
Speaker 1: You should make sure that what you're doing is other

3336
03:07:58,040 --> 03:08:00,360
Speaker 1: people are backing up on this decision. Make sure that's there.

3337
03:08:00,680 --> 03:08:04,000
Speaker 1: You can cross reference information here, because there's a lot

3338
03:08:04,080 --> 03:08:06,240
Speaker 1: of information out there online and not all of it

3339
03:08:06,440 --> 03:08:09,960
Speaker 1: is good information, obviously, but really try to cross reference

3340
03:08:10,040 --> 03:08:14,520
Speaker 1: information on any drug sources, on hormone dosage, on any

3341
03:08:14,560 --> 03:08:17,280
Speaker 1: possible drug interactions. If you're taking multiple drugs or you

3342
03:08:17,320 --> 03:08:19,880
Speaker 1: already have prescriptions, now I should I should note that

3343
03:08:20,040 --> 03:08:23,480
Speaker 1: supply chain issues that affect the medical system can even

3344
03:08:23,520 --> 03:08:25,280
Speaker 1: extend out to d y A h r T. There's

3345
03:08:25,360 --> 03:08:29,080
Speaker 1: no true escape. There's no true other. One of the

3346
03:08:29,160 --> 03:08:32,880
Speaker 1: main pharmaceutical grade online sites to source HRT from is

3347
03:08:33,000 --> 03:08:37,040
Speaker 1: currently out of estradial pills, so there there is there

3348
03:08:37,160 --> 03:08:41,120
Speaker 1: is no true escape sometimes, but to learn more about

3349
03:08:41,240 --> 03:08:43,560
Speaker 1: d I Y HRT, you should check out d I

3350
03:08:43,680 --> 03:08:47,520
Speaker 1: O Y HRT dot get hub dot io or HRT

3351
03:08:47,680 --> 03:08:50,879
Speaker 1: dot cafe and the d I y trans dot wiki.

3352
03:08:51,400 --> 03:08:53,680
Speaker 1: And keep in mind not everything you read on those

3353
03:08:53,720 --> 03:08:56,840
Speaker 1: sources is necessarily good advice or up to date with

3354
03:08:56,920 --> 03:08:59,720
Speaker 1: the current information on how these drugs work. Recently, I

3355
03:08:59,760 --> 03:09:02,000
Speaker 1: would reading a guide I found via one of those

3356
03:09:02,040 --> 03:09:06,000
Speaker 1: sites on how to homebrew my own estrogen by buying

3357
03:09:06,440 --> 03:09:09,520
Speaker 1: the powdered version of it that synthesizing it myself to

3358
03:09:09,800 --> 03:09:13,360
Speaker 1: level up my alchemy stat um, and I found the

3359
03:09:13,560 --> 03:09:16,200
Speaker 1: guy that I was reading contained quite a bit of

3360
03:09:16,280 --> 03:09:20,600
Speaker 1: outdated misinformation about progester around, So don't take everything you

3361
03:09:20,680 --> 03:09:23,680
Speaker 1: read as gospel, but those resources are at least a

3362
03:09:23,800 --> 03:09:27,680
Speaker 1: good place to start anyway. Now back to the interview,

3363
03:09:28,440 --> 03:09:30,640
Speaker 1: the problem that you might run into with the I

3364
03:09:30,879 --> 03:09:32,280
Speaker 1: y ng it is you might not be able to

3365
03:09:32,360 --> 03:09:36,080
Speaker 1: get the bioequivalent estradial in some form, you might have

3366
03:09:36,160 --> 03:09:40,320
Speaker 1: to settle for conjugated estrogens or even something like an

3367
03:09:40,360 --> 03:09:45,360
Speaker 1: ethaniol estradiale, which is like hormonal birth control, which because

3368
03:09:45,440 --> 03:09:49,280
Speaker 1: they are synthetics, they actually have a much rougher time

3369
03:09:49,360 --> 03:09:50,920
Speaker 1: on your body. And that's where a lot of the

3370
03:09:50,959 --> 03:09:55,040
Speaker 1: side effects quote unquote like come from. Like all of

3371
03:09:55,160 --> 03:09:59,000
Speaker 1: the worry about like blood clots and things from taking

3372
03:09:59,120 --> 03:10:05,000
Speaker 1: estrogens comes from conjugated estrogen sethanio estrodi. Yeah. The actual study,

3373
03:10:05,600 --> 03:10:08,080
Speaker 1: uh that a lot of that is citing goes all

3374
03:10:08,080 --> 03:10:10,040
Speaker 1: the way back and it was studying the rate of

3375
03:10:10,160 --> 03:10:16,400
Speaker 1: plotting in cis gender women taking hormonal and it's just like, okay,

3376
03:10:16,440 --> 03:10:21,000
Speaker 1: so this is the wrong population with the wrong medication. Yeah,

3377
03:10:21,040 --> 03:10:23,680
Speaker 1: that seems like not a great scientific study, Right, what

3378
03:10:23,760 --> 03:10:25,600
Speaker 1: do we do? I mean, it might be great to

3379
03:10:25,680 --> 03:10:32,400
Speaker 1: talk about for the rate of yeah, right, or doesn't

3380
03:10:32,440 --> 03:10:37,040
Speaker 1: really right, it doesn't it doesn't really help so much.

3381
03:10:37,680 --> 03:10:40,400
Speaker 1: Um And what I think is also pretty wild too.

3382
03:10:40,680 --> 03:10:42,920
Speaker 1: I mentioned the progesteran thing earlier. A lot of that

3383
03:10:43,000 --> 03:10:45,760
Speaker 1: controversy comes from the fact that the original studies on

3384
03:10:45,800 --> 03:10:47,800
Speaker 1: whether or not it could be beneficial. We're done with

3385
03:10:48,000 --> 03:10:53,039
Speaker 1: medroxy progesterone, a synthetic progesterone that has a really nasty

3386
03:10:53,120 --> 03:10:55,480
Speaker 1: side effect profile in a lot of different ways. And

3387
03:10:55,560 --> 03:10:58,560
Speaker 1: now that we have micronized progesterone where the evidence suggested

3388
03:10:58,600 --> 03:11:03,040
Speaker 1: not only is it safe, actually makes estrogen safer, and

3389
03:11:03,160 --> 03:11:05,160
Speaker 1: now they're like, no, we can't give that, that's just

3390
03:11:05,360 --> 03:11:08,440
Speaker 1: that's just crazy talk. I will say, I have heard

3391
03:11:08,520 --> 03:11:11,240
Speaker 1: from people with more experience taking hormones than me that

3392
03:11:11,320 --> 03:11:17,320
Speaker 1: progesterone does make you way too hoarny um heads up

3393
03:11:17,560 --> 03:11:23,760
Speaker 1: for for side effects, TAG can confirm, but um, well,

3394
03:11:23,800 --> 03:11:25,480
Speaker 1: but but progesterone can have a lot of other really

3395
03:11:25,520 --> 03:11:28,640
Speaker 1: beneficial side effects. It can really increase the fat deposition

3396
03:11:28,720 --> 03:11:30,440
Speaker 1: to various places. It can help with your mood, it

3397
03:11:30,480 --> 03:11:33,200
Speaker 1: can help with your sleep. It actually reduced the period

3398
03:11:33,280 --> 03:11:37,160
Speaker 1: symptoms that I was having because I because there's surprise,

3399
03:11:37,440 --> 03:11:41,320
Speaker 1: people on estrogen can also have periods. Uh And because

3400
03:11:41,360 --> 03:11:44,120
Speaker 1: your body again knows what it's doing, it's gonna modulate

3401
03:11:44,200 --> 03:11:46,040
Speaker 1: it through the E one, E two, E three pathway

3402
03:11:46,200 --> 03:11:48,440
Speaker 1: like throughout the month in a sixal fashion, and you

3403
03:11:48,560 --> 03:11:51,440
Speaker 1: can get bloating and cramps. And I had really bad

3404
03:11:51,520 --> 03:11:54,800
Speaker 1: morning sickness like for for three days every twenty eight

3405
03:11:54,920 --> 03:11:59,200
Speaker 1: days for months until eventually I started micronized progesterone and

3406
03:11:59,360 --> 03:12:02,520
Speaker 1: those some them's alleviated, Which makes a kind of sense

3407
03:12:02,600 --> 03:12:07,200
Speaker 1: if you know that progesterone only birth control reduces periods.

3408
03:12:07,400 --> 03:12:09,320
Speaker 1: So like there's a there's there's a lot of precedent,

3409
03:12:09,360 --> 03:12:10,960
Speaker 1: a lot. It makes a lot of like sense that

3410
03:12:11,080 --> 03:12:15,560
Speaker 1: it would work. God, I it's I need to tell

3411
03:12:15,640 --> 03:12:20,240
Speaker 1: you have have you ever heard of the Powers method

3412
03:12:20,760 --> 03:12:26,080
Speaker 1: of of Oh Garrison, I am so excited to introduce

3413
03:12:26,160 --> 03:12:31,200
Speaker 1: you to this person. Like doctor Powers is a fascinating

3414
03:12:31,280 --> 03:12:35,840
Speaker 1: grifter in the trans health care space because he is

3415
03:12:36,360 --> 03:12:39,640
Speaker 1: a He's a physician who like has has made it

3416
03:12:39,879 --> 03:12:43,640
Speaker 1: his duty to to to make sure that trans people,

3417
03:12:43,760 --> 03:12:46,119
Speaker 1: especially trans women. He actually doesn't like really have anything

3418
03:12:46,120 --> 03:12:48,840
Speaker 1: to say about trans men because the the therapy is

3419
03:12:48,920 --> 03:12:53,560
Speaker 1: so like easy to to to do that. He has

3420
03:12:53,800 --> 03:13:00,480
Speaker 1: a wild postulation as to like better ways to give hormones,

3421
03:13:00,920 --> 03:13:02,440
Speaker 1: and he he has things where it's like, we don't

3422
03:13:02,480 --> 03:13:06,600
Speaker 1: need antiandrogens, you just give really high levels of injectable estrogen,

3423
03:13:06,879 --> 03:13:09,400
Speaker 1: which like I mean that will probably work because for

3424
03:13:09,520 --> 03:13:12,440
Speaker 1: some people, but yeah yeah, but but also estrogens like

3425
03:13:12,560 --> 03:13:15,440
Speaker 1: really safe and so like you can give it to

3426
03:13:15,720 --> 03:13:19,359
Speaker 1: an unbelievably high level. It's not really going to speed

3427
03:13:19,600 --> 03:13:22,720
Speaker 1: things up exactly like it will maybe a little bit,

3428
03:13:22,800 --> 03:13:26,240
Speaker 1: but not that much. And any of the side effects

3429
03:13:26,240 --> 03:13:29,519
Speaker 1: you might experience, which could also come from the the excipients,

3430
03:13:29,600 --> 03:13:32,560
Speaker 1: the non active elements of it, like you can be

3431
03:13:32,600 --> 03:13:34,879
Speaker 1: allergic to those if you ever really high dose, if

3432
03:13:34,920 --> 03:13:38,480
Speaker 1: you're real problem. Um. But the big thing for him

3433
03:13:38,640 --> 03:13:42,480
Speaker 1: is he pushes that micronized progesterone is not only necessary

3434
03:13:42,600 --> 03:13:45,720
Speaker 1: and good, especially for breast size, you should also stick

3435
03:13:45,800 --> 03:13:49,800
Speaker 1: the oral capsules in your butt. Oh we're we are,

3436
03:13:49,959 --> 03:13:53,800
Speaker 1: we are officially boofing estrogen now yes, yes, okay, well

3437
03:13:53,879 --> 03:13:56,640
Speaker 1: I'm I'm switching back to pills. This sounds very exciting.

3438
03:13:58,120 --> 03:14:01,800
Speaker 1: Well so well, oh my gosh. So the the idea

3439
03:14:01,959 --> 03:14:06,280
Speaker 1: is his line is, um that you know that the

3440
03:14:06,560 --> 03:14:09,760
Speaker 1: oral capsules you only get a tiny fraction of the

3441
03:14:09,840 --> 03:14:11,960
Speaker 1: total progesterone, and you get a lot more if you

3442
03:14:12,000 --> 03:14:14,000
Speaker 1: stick it up you get the whole dose if you

3443
03:14:14,040 --> 03:14:16,080
Speaker 1: stick it up your butt, which, like if you know

3444
03:14:16,320 --> 03:14:20,720
Speaker 1: literally anything about pharmacology is both right and entirely insane

3445
03:14:21,320 --> 03:14:25,800
Speaker 1: because anything that you take orally, there's a bioavailable like

3446
03:14:26,240 --> 03:14:30,000
Speaker 1: level of it like so oral. Uh, micronized progesterone has

3447
03:14:30,000 --> 03:14:32,000
Speaker 1: a bioequivalence of I think like two or three percent,

3448
03:14:32,480 --> 03:14:35,119
Speaker 1: which is why when you take like a hundred milligram capsule,

3449
03:14:35,240 --> 03:14:38,080
Speaker 1: you get like a certain blood level. If you take

3450
03:14:38,120 --> 03:14:41,320
Speaker 1: it rectally, it's like a twelve. It's still not the

3451
03:14:41,360 --> 03:14:46,960
Speaker 1: whole thing, which is why the the micronized progesterone rectal

3452
03:14:47,000 --> 03:14:50,600
Speaker 1: suppositories or twenty five milligrams to give you the same exposure,

3453
03:14:51,000 --> 03:14:55,800
Speaker 1: so it's four times the systemic absorption, which means that

3454
03:14:55,920 --> 03:15:00,440
Speaker 1: if you are boofing a micronized progesterone capsule, you getting

3455
03:15:00,800 --> 03:15:05,080
Speaker 1: three to four times the dose that you should be getting.

3456
03:15:06,000 --> 03:15:10,480
Speaker 1: And uh, the I pulled because I get into fights

3457
03:15:10,520 --> 03:15:12,640
Speaker 1: with people all the time about this. I pulled the

3458
03:15:12,760 --> 03:15:17,080
Speaker 1: original FDA filing for micro and I progesterone, and they

3459
03:15:17,160 --> 03:15:20,200
Speaker 1: suggested that three hundred milligrams is basically getting to what

3460
03:15:20,360 --> 03:15:23,240
Speaker 1: like a cis gender person's maximum progesterone levels would be,

3461
03:15:23,800 --> 03:15:26,640
Speaker 1: meaning that if you're boofing one or two, as some

3462
03:15:26,800 --> 03:15:31,640
Speaker 1: of his regimens suggests, like, you might be essentially overdosing

3463
03:15:31,680 --> 03:15:35,840
Speaker 1: on progesterone for no reason, like there's no real reason

3464
03:15:35,920 --> 03:15:39,360
Speaker 1: to do that and it is just crazy. When when

3465
03:15:39,400 --> 03:15:41,160
Speaker 1: I started this call today, I did I did not

3466
03:15:41,280 --> 03:15:46,560
Speaker 1: think we would get to boofing progesterone. It is a weird,

3467
03:15:47,000 --> 03:15:50,480
Speaker 1: like a weirdly large part of my Twitter interactions have

3468
03:15:50,600 --> 03:15:55,240
Speaker 1: been fighting people to stop boofing progesterone. UM, so I

3469
03:15:55,440 --> 03:15:58,640
Speaker 1: needed to say unfortunately, just exposed this idea. Two millions

3470
03:15:58,680 --> 03:16:01,400
Speaker 1: of more people know well, no, I'm saying, don't do

3471
03:16:01,560 --> 03:16:04,520
Speaker 1: it well and so but you know, you know, you

3472
03:16:04,640 --> 03:16:07,039
Speaker 1: know that's not how that works. I do know that's

3473
03:16:07,080 --> 03:16:09,400
Speaker 1: not how that works. But I mean, I I tell you,

3474
03:16:09,959 --> 03:16:13,440
Speaker 1: if if your your friend Robert Evans were here, I

3475
03:16:13,480 --> 03:16:15,800
Speaker 1: could pitch a hole behind the bastards on this Dr

3476
03:16:15,840 --> 03:16:20,200
Speaker 1: powers guy um sounds, he sounds fascinating. He has a subreddit,

3477
03:16:20,440 --> 03:16:23,440
Speaker 1: like all good physicians do. I love the doctor has

3478
03:16:23,480 --> 03:16:27,520
Speaker 1: a subreddit and my my favorite post other than recently,

3479
03:16:27,640 --> 03:16:30,280
Speaker 1: he's been pushing this like miracle hair tonic that he made,

3480
03:16:30,360 --> 03:16:33,800
Speaker 1: which is like come on, buddy, like like now it's

3481
03:16:33,840 --> 03:16:38,960
Speaker 1: just obvious. He calls it to yep, yep, the verbon.

3482
03:16:39,200 --> 03:16:41,400
Speaker 1: He might call it. He might even call it an elixir,

3483
03:16:41,520 --> 03:16:46,879
Speaker 1: which is very funny, but from a magical hand, tonic exactly.

3484
03:16:47,400 --> 03:16:49,200
Speaker 1: It's so funny because one of the components of it,

3485
03:16:49,280 --> 03:16:51,520
Speaker 1: I think is finasteride. Like I I looked at the

3486
03:16:51,680 --> 03:16:53,400
Speaker 1: and I'm like, yes, that is something for bald for

3487
03:16:53,520 --> 03:16:56,560
Speaker 1: male pattern baldness. It will probably work. Congratulations, you just

3488
03:16:56,879 --> 03:17:02,199
Speaker 1: remade rogaine. Uh. But the single post that I feel

3489
03:17:02,240 --> 03:17:08,160
Speaker 1: like perfectly encapsulates this guy's mentality. Um is, there's this

3490
03:17:08,240 --> 03:17:10,880
Speaker 1: big post that went around through like cis gender like

3491
03:17:11,240 --> 03:17:14,200
Speaker 1: kind of like centrist spaces that every trans person I

3492
03:17:14,280 --> 03:17:17,240
Speaker 1: saw was just like, excuse me, what the fuck? Where

3493
03:17:17,440 --> 03:17:22,320
Speaker 1: this guy was secretly micro dosing injectable estrogen that he

3494
03:17:22,400 --> 03:17:26,320
Speaker 1: prescribed himself, which sounds kind of illegal. Not gonna lie. Uh,

3495
03:17:26,480 --> 03:17:29,960
Speaker 1: and messed up the dose by a thousand percent by

3496
03:17:30,000 --> 03:17:33,600
Speaker 1: a thought, by a times thousand Yeah yeah yeah. And

3497
03:17:33,920 --> 03:17:35,840
Speaker 1: um like, I can give you the link. I I can.

3498
03:17:36,120 --> 03:17:37,560
Speaker 1: I know exactly where it is. I can give you

3499
03:17:37,640 --> 03:17:39,040
Speaker 1: the link if you wanted to read this. It is

3500
03:17:39,160 --> 03:17:42,160
Speaker 1: buck Wild. But the thing is, he goes on to

3501
03:17:42,400 --> 03:17:46,400
Speaker 1: describe this like acute dysphoric episode that he had from

3502
03:17:46,800 --> 03:17:51,000
Speaker 1: one high dose of subcutaneous estrogen, a thing that is

3503
03:17:51,080 --> 03:17:55,960
Speaker 1: not physiologically possible and completely insane. That and he but

3504
03:17:56,040 --> 03:18:00,320
Speaker 1: he was like, but I understand the pain the trans

3505
03:18:00,400 --> 03:18:03,119
Speaker 1: women go through because I fucked up a dose where

3506
03:18:03,160 --> 03:18:06,840
Speaker 1: I was secretly taking estrogen to make my face look younger.

3507
03:18:08,200 --> 03:18:10,760
Speaker 1: So I understand your pain and have so much empathy

3508
03:18:10,920 --> 03:18:13,840
Speaker 1: for for the trans women's that I am trying to save.

3509
03:18:14,600 --> 03:18:17,879
Speaker 1: And it is so frustrating to me how many people

3510
03:18:17,959 --> 03:18:21,520
Speaker 1: give him like credence, give him credit um because he

3511
03:18:21,640 --> 03:18:25,920
Speaker 1: he has He has claims like apply progesterone cream to

3512
03:18:26,320 --> 03:18:29,640
Speaker 1: the the the smaller breast to even them out, and

3513
03:18:29,680 --> 03:18:31,320
Speaker 1: it's like, okay, my dude, have you ever met like

3514
03:18:31,680 --> 03:18:34,640
Speaker 1: people with breasts one is larger than the other. That's

3515
03:18:34,680 --> 03:18:37,240
Speaker 1: how breasts work. It's like, well, what's your evidence for that? Well,

3516
03:18:37,280 --> 03:18:39,039
Speaker 1: I had two people who did it and they said

3517
03:18:39,040 --> 03:18:44,840
Speaker 1: it worked. Okay, cool. Do you have those those reports? No? No, no,

3518
03:18:44,959 --> 03:18:47,160
Speaker 1: they got burned up in a house fire. It's very sad,

3519
03:18:47,200 --> 03:18:51,720
Speaker 1: and I can't give you that act. Yes. So, so

3520
03:18:51,879 --> 03:18:53,959
Speaker 1: he worked in a clinic that a friend of mine

3521
03:18:54,000 --> 03:18:58,000
Speaker 1: actually moved to after they got rid of him because

3522
03:18:58,440 --> 03:19:01,200
Speaker 1: he made all these wildly and total claims and whenever

3523
03:19:01,280 --> 03:19:03,960
Speaker 1: anybody challenged, and then his house burned out, which is

3524
03:19:04,000 --> 03:19:05,920
Speaker 1: actually very sad because his cats died in it, and

3525
03:19:06,120 --> 03:19:08,680
Speaker 1: he didn't deserve his cats because cats are perfect creatures

3526
03:19:08,760 --> 03:19:14,240
Speaker 1: and this man is insane and cats never do anything wrong.

3527
03:19:14,520 --> 03:19:19,360
Speaker 1: Cats are perfect, magical beings. I love yours so much

3528
03:19:19,440 --> 03:19:23,560
Speaker 1: as they keep crossing in front of the screen. They're perfect. Um.

3529
03:19:24,200 --> 03:19:28,680
Speaker 1: But so whenever anybody challenges him on literally any of

3530
03:19:28,760 --> 03:19:30,840
Speaker 1: his claims, he goes, well, I had all of that data,

3531
03:19:30,920 --> 03:19:32,520
Speaker 1: but it burned up in my house, and then he

3532
03:19:32,640 --> 03:19:35,520
Speaker 1: like makes it a sob story about like how like

3533
03:19:36,200 --> 03:19:38,880
Speaker 1: like horrible this was, which like I'm sure it was

3534
03:19:39,040 --> 03:19:41,160
Speaker 1: really bad, Like I'm sure it was like really really bad.

3535
03:19:41,400 --> 03:19:46,000
Speaker 1: But even his um like power point presentations that he

3536
03:19:46,120 --> 03:19:48,520
Speaker 1: has that he like goes through to like really like

3537
03:19:48,760 --> 03:19:50,520
Speaker 1: talk about the powers method and make it sound like

3538
03:19:50,640 --> 03:19:55,400
Speaker 1: really really good, has a like fire safety section specifically

3539
03:19:55,480 --> 03:19:59,520
Speaker 1: so he can garner this like sympathy so people will

3540
03:19:59,640 --> 03:20:03,880
Speaker 1: not question his claims that have no evidence behind them.

3541
03:20:04,400 --> 03:20:08,120
Speaker 1: And so it's just such a fantastic examinated to me.

3542
03:20:08,400 --> 03:20:11,160
Speaker 1: I like, it's just so weird seeing like a space

3543
03:20:11,320 --> 03:20:14,960
Speaker 1: that has historically been denigrated in the evidence. You know,

3544
03:20:15,080 --> 03:20:17,360
Speaker 1: you had that whole episode on like the Hirshfeld Institute,

3545
03:20:17,760 --> 03:20:19,920
Speaker 1: and you know, we see all this like anti anti

3546
03:20:20,000 --> 03:20:23,920
Speaker 1: trans uh like propaganda and legislation going on right now

3547
03:20:24,160 --> 03:20:27,840
Speaker 1: that there's a lot of like empty space in the

3548
03:20:28,000 --> 03:20:31,480
Speaker 1: medical record and in the evidence record for what to

3549
03:20:31,560 --> 03:20:34,000
Speaker 1: do in these situations. There's a lot of confusion from

3550
03:20:34,040 --> 03:20:36,879
Speaker 1: the guidelines in these other societies, like I was talking about,

3551
03:20:37,320 --> 03:20:41,200
Speaker 1: and in steps this guy who sees an opportunity to

3552
03:20:42,120 --> 03:20:47,000
Speaker 1: be like, uh like popular, like powerful individual in this

3553
03:20:47,080 --> 03:20:49,800
Speaker 1: space to give people hope that he can cash in

3554
03:20:49,959 --> 03:20:53,120
Speaker 1: on uh And since the medications and since the hormone

3555
03:20:53,160 --> 03:20:57,920
Speaker 1: therapy is so safe, he doesn't actually hurt that many people.

3556
03:20:58,480 --> 03:21:01,680
Speaker 1: And it's it is so wild seeing this juxtaposition of

3557
03:21:01,879 --> 03:21:05,040
Speaker 1: individuals being like, well, this is unsafe experimental nonsense, and

3558
03:21:05,120 --> 03:21:09,800
Speaker 1: seeing this guy flagrantly overdosing people on hormones with no

3559
03:21:09,920 --> 03:21:15,840
Speaker 1: ill effects because they're that safe. Uh. That is that

3560
03:21:16,080 --> 03:21:19,760
Speaker 1: is pretty funny. Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's funny in

3561
03:21:19,879 --> 03:21:25,040
Speaker 1: that like laughing until you're crying kind of way. What

3562
03:21:25,240 --> 03:21:28,840
Speaker 1: is the way that people can try to combat all

3563
03:21:28,840 --> 03:21:34,600
Speaker 1: the medical disinformation around HRT specifically because we do this specifically,

3564
03:21:34,920 --> 03:21:36,240
Speaker 1: let you see this a lot and to save the

3565
03:21:36,280 --> 03:21:39,080
Speaker 1: children rhetoric, we see this a lot for just anti

3566
03:21:39,120 --> 03:21:43,920
Speaker 1: TRN stuff in general of and like, yeah, just in

3567
03:21:44,040 --> 03:21:45,440
Speaker 1: terms of someone who has to deal with this stuff

3568
03:21:45,440 --> 03:21:49,480
Speaker 1: on a professional level, like when when we're just faced

3569
03:21:49,520 --> 03:21:52,960
Speaker 1: with all of this just complatantly, just like wrong stuff

3570
03:21:53,640 --> 03:21:57,600
Speaker 1: being treated as absolute fact when your experience, what's kind

3571
03:21:57,600 --> 03:21:59,360
Speaker 1: of the best ways to go about that in people?

3572
03:22:00,240 --> 03:22:03,320
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, UM, it kind of depends on the audience.

3573
03:22:03,920 --> 03:22:07,600
Speaker 1: When I'm talking to other other healthcare practitioners, I, UM,

3574
03:22:09,640 --> 03:22:12,080
Speaker 1: I can. I I have historically because I do a

3575
03:22:12,160 --> 03:22:14,720
Speaker 1: lot of like teaching and advocacy in this area to

3576
03:22:15,040 --> 03:22:20,160
Speaker 1: other health care practitioners and UM holding sessions like volunteering

3577
03:22:20,240 --> 03:22:23,120
Speaker 1: for to hold sessions of like to educate on this

3578
03:22:23,320 --> 03:22:25,360
Speaker 1: and say like these are the kind of regimens that

3579
03:22:25,400 --> 03:22:28,680
Speaker 1: are commonly used in clinics. This is why these are

3580
03:22:28,760 --> 03:22:32,400
Speaker 1: things to look out for and to stress the importance

3581
03:22:32,600 --> 03:22:38,520
Speaker 1: of believing the patient and um, the importance of you

3582
03:22:38,600 --> 03:22:41,959
Speaker 1: don't want to gate key because if if which they're

3583
03:22:42,000 --> 03:22:44,360
Speaker 1: not that dangerous, but if there is to be a problem,

3584
03:22:44,760 --> 03:22:47,640
Speaker 1: you would rather have that patient want to work with

3585
03:22:47,800 --> 03:22:51,600
Speaker 1: you to solve it. Is like such a big part

3586
03:22:51,640 --> 03:22:54,000
Speaker 1: of it, Like even just understanding that from that level

3587
03:22:54,080 --> 03:22:58,080
Speaker 1: that you're not like delivering this kind of like life

3588
03:22:58,120 --> 03:23:01,800
Speaker 1: saving medication to them as this like Lord on High.

3589
03:23:02,040 --> 03:23:03,640
Speaker 1: It's this idea that like, no, you should be working

3590
03:23:03,720 --> 03:23:05,920
Speaker 1: with this person and if you're not familiar with it,

3591
03:23:06,000 --> 03:23:08,840
Speaker 1: you need to do your fucking research. Uh. And I

3592
03:23:08,920 --> 03:23:11,280
Speaker 1: will give you the resources for that. I will. I

3593
03:23:11,320 --> 03:23:14,480
Speaker 1: will walk you through those resources. And that's that's awfully

3594
03:23:14,520 --> 03:23:17,720
Speaker 1: convincing for the majority of healthcare individuals at any level,

3595
03:23:17,760 --> 03:23:20,960
Speaker 1: because I've done I've done talks for students and nursing

3596
03:23:21,000 --> 03:23:23,120
Speaker 1: programs and physical therapy programs all the way up to

3597
03:23:23,400 --> 03:23:29,080
Speaker 1: like actively practicing physicians, nurses and pharmacists, and it's basically

3598
03:23:29,120 --> 03:23:31,880
Speaker 1: the same. You just you make the argument, you show

3599
03:23:31,959 --> 03:23:33,959
Speaker 1: the evidence, You give them the evidence, and you walk

3600
03:23:34,040 --> 03:23:36,600
Speaker 1: them through uh like kind of and and then and

3601
03:23:36,680 --> 03:23:39,640
Speaker 1: then have a robust question and answer period where they

3602
03:23:39,680 --> 03:23:42,440
Speaker 1: will ask you those questions and you can explain why

3603
03:23:42,560 --> 03:23:45,840
Speaker 1: they are wrong. Having that kind of dedicated space can

3604
03:23:45,920 --> 03:23:49,600
Speaker 1: be really beneficial, but not scalable in a way that's

3605
03:23:49,640 --> 03:23:53,520
Speaker 1: necessarily helpful, Like I've made a positive impact on my city,

3606
03:23:53,920 --> 03:23:57,240
Speaker 1: but that doesn't really necessarily help if you yourself are

3607
03:23:57,320 --> 03:24:00,600
Speaker 1: not a health care practitioner and want to like explain

3608
03:24:00,720 --> 03:24:04,400
Speaker 1: this kind of stuff. And I mentioned earlier that on Twitter,

3609
03:24:04,520 --> 03:24:06,600
Speaker 1: I've spent a lot of time like arguing that people

3610
03:24:06,640 --> 03:24:10,200
Speaker 1: shouldn't be boofing their progesterone. But I've had to stop

3611
03:24:10,280 --> 03:24:13,959
Speaker 1: because it's exhausting every single person like coming back. It's

3612
03:24:14,000 --> 03:24:17,360
Speaker 1: like the same conversations over and over again, and there's

3613
03:24:17,400 --> 03:24:22,920
Speaker 1: no good way to like have a central location that

3614
03:24:23,040 --> 03:24:25,800
Speaker 1: just has all that information that anybody is gonna believe

3615
03:24:26,120 --> 03:24:30,640
Speaker 1: because of the way the internetworks. Um So, I guess

3616
03:24:30,800 --> 03:24:34,200
Speaker 1: my answer is I'm not sure, Like there's so much

3617
03:24:34,280 --> 03:24:36,920
Speaker 1: misinformation out there, and so much of it is so

3618
03:24:38,160 --> 03:24:42,560
Speaker 1: wrong and not in alignment with reality that looking at

3619
03:24:42,600 --> 03:24:46,720
Speaker 1: it at all, it falls to pieces and and the

3620
03:24:46,879 --> 03:24:50,080
Speaker 1: idea of the majority of people to I guess I

3621
03:24:50,120 --> 03:24:52,520
Speaker 1: could say, if a person is coming to you and

3622
03:24:52,640 --> 03:24:57,760
Speaker 1: asking legitimate questions and they don't really know, like they're

3623
03:24:57,840 --> 03:25:00,400
Speaker 1: just like parroting stuff that they heard, they they're much

3624
03:25:00,440 --> 03:25:03,320
Speaker 1: easier to convince because you can show like, oh, like

3625
03:25:03,440 --> 03:25:05,840
Speaker 1: we have a long history of doing this, like look

3626
03:25:05,879 --> 03:25:08,400
Speaker 1: at you know. I tell my students about how like

3627
03:25:08,600 --> 03:25:13,320
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty two was the first like recognized hormonal mediated

3628
03:25:13,760 --> 03:25:16,840
Speaker 1: transition in the United states like she was like a

3629
03:25:16,959 --> 03:25:20,560
Speaker 1: movie star. Um and and you know, I talked about

3630
03:25:20,560 --> 03:25:22,200
Speaker 1: a lot of the history to be like this isn't new,

3631
03:25:22,440 --> 03:25:25,119
Speaker 1: this is something like we have been here forever. Um

3632
03:25:25,720 --> 03:25:27,440
Speaker 1: my my favorite story. Do you know about the story

3633
03:25:27,440 --> 03:25:30,920
Speaker 1: about the Scythian priestesses? Yes, I actually do, but I

3634
03:25:30,959 --> 03:25:32,960
Speaker 1: would love for you to explain it. But oh my god,

3635
03:25:33,120 --> 03:25:35,360
Speaker 1: I found out about that a few months ago and

3636
03:25:35,440 --> 03:25:38,880
Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god, it makes me so happy.

3637
03:25:39,040 --> 03:25:41,720
Speaker 1: So so to to explain very briefly, I think it's

3638
03:25:41,840 --> 03:25:44,240
Speaker 1: it's an old um. I think it was like Herodotus.

3639
03:25:44,280 --> 03:25:46,600
Speaker 1: It's like an old like Crestian like author that we

3640
03:25:46,640 --> 03:25:51,520
Speaker 1: have information, author, philosopher, whatever, historian. But they talk about

3641
03:25:51,640 --> 03:25:56,080
Speaker 1: in one of the texts the Scythian priestesses who essentially

3642
03:25:56,240 --> 03:25:58,879
Speaker 1: distill the poison of woman. They call it in one

3643
03:25:58,920 --> 03:26:00,240
Speaker 1: of the text which I think is just such a

3644
03:26:00,320 --> 03:26:06,800
Speaker 1: great term from um uh, pregnant mayor urine, which interestingly enough,

3645
03:26:06,879 --> 03:26:10,520
Speaker 1: we actually still make today conjugated estrogens. The brand name

3646
03:26:10,560 --> 03:26:13,720
Speaker 1: is Premarin because it comes from pregnant mayor urine, Like

3647
03:26:14,680 --> 03:26:17,600
Speaker 1: are you serious? Yeahah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's that's literally

3648
03:26:17,680 --> 03:26:20,359
Speaker 1: a thing that we still do today. That is hilarious.

3649
03:26:20,560 --> 03:26:25,680
Speaker 1: It's beautiful, it's so good. Um. And so they were priestesses.

3650
03:26:26,040 --> 03:26:28,880
Speaker 1: They were like, you know, people would come to them

3651
03:26:28,959 --> 03:26:31,960
Speaker 1: to seek out their wisdom and they're like the spiritual thing.

3652
03:26:32,000 --> 03:26:33,200
Speaker 1: And it was a it was like a bunch of

3653
03:26:33,240 --> 03:26:36,560
Speaker 1: trans women who like got high, told stories and probably

3654
03:26:36,640 --> 03:26:38,960
Speaker 1: sucked each other. And that sounds like a policule to me.

3655
03:26:39,520 --> 03:26:43,279
Speaker 1: But like the silly the Sithians were like a nomadic

3656
03:26:43,800 --> 03:26:45,880
Speaker 1: group of people who would travel all around kind of

3657
03:26:45,920 --> 03:26:49,720
Speaker 1: what is now the Middle East. Um. And yeah, it's

3658
03:26:49,959 --> 03:26:52,960
Speaker 1: I mean, I do love the idea of trans people

3659
03:26:53,400 --> 03:26:58,920
Speaker 1: having like specific like more esoteric insight almost naturally because

3660
03:26:59,160 --> 03:27:01,920
Speaker 1: they've had to deal with ideas of ontology and ideas

3661
03:27:02,080 --> 03:27:04,600
Speaker 1: as ontology is just like the nature of being um

3662
03:27:04,920 --> 03:27:07,280
Speaker 1: and so having to people with that, having to deal

3663
03:27:07,360 --> 03:27:09,440
Speaker 1: with like the nature of reality from a much a

3664
03:27:09,520 --> 03:27:12,480
Speaker 1: younger age because their whole perception of reality and self

3665
03:27:12,560 --> 03:27:15,600
Speaker 1: is obviously so different because of their experience of being

3666
03:27:15,879 --> 03:27:19,080
Speaker 1: what is now called trans um. So it makes a

3667
03:27:19,120 --> 03:27:20,960
Speaker 1: lot of sense that a lot of these people would

3668
03:27:21,000 --> 03:27:25,480
Speaker 1: have been like basically different forms of Shabin's mediums. We'll

3669
03:27:25,560 --> 03:27:28,720
Speaker 1: just have like esoteric insite because they've been thinking about

3670
03:27:28,840 --> 03:27:31,920
Speaker 1: these types of like reality altering topics for so much

3671
03:27:32,000 --> 03:27:35,280
Speaker 1: longer because it's so much more personally affecting to them. Um.

3672
03:27:35,959 --> 03:27:38,000
Speaker 1: But yes, what I specifically read about the cythy and

3673
03:27:38,040 --> 03:27:41,000
Speaker 1: priestesses and like, oh my, they're just like doing the thing,

3674
03:27:41,560 --> 03:27:43,360
Speaker 1: just doing the thing. It turns out we've been doing

3675
03:27:43,400 --> 03:27:46,480
Speaker 1: this forever. My favorite account is one of the reasons

3676
03:27:46,560 --> 03:27:50,720
Speaker 1: they commanded respect of the like masculine leaders that would

3677
03:27:50,760 --> 03:27:53,280
Speaker 1: come to get information was because they were all terrified

3678
03:27:53,360 --> 03:27:56,280
Speaker 1: that they would inflict the poison of women, which of

3679
03:27:56,360 --> 03:27:59,000
Speaker 1: them it does spread by the way it is, it's

3680
03:27:59,040 --> 03:28:02,560
Speaker 1: highly contagious, contagious. But it's just the idea that like

3681
03:28:02,879 --> 03:28:04,800
Speaker 1: there was like some of the respect was from like

3682
03:28:05,360 --> 03:28:09,000
Speaker 1: this fear of being force femed is hilarious, from like

3683
03:28:09,200 --> 03:28:13,600
Speaker 1: this early BC, the primordial fear of the primordial fear.

3684
03:28:13,959 --> 03:28:16,800
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, Garrison, you mentioning like ontology. My

3685
03:28:16,879 --> 03:28:20,320
Speaker 1: original degree was in psychology and philosophy, So like, let's go, baby,

3686
03:28:20,360 --> 03:28:22,680
Speaker 1: we can go deep on some of this stuff. Sure,

3687
03:28:23,480 --> 03:28:26,480
Speaker 1: I'm sure, I'm sure we couldn't talk to the mysticism

3688
03:28:26,560 --> 03:28:28,840
Speaker 1: and magic and gender for a long long time. Oh

3689
03:28:28,920 --> 03:28:31,520
Speaker 1: my god, that would be a whole another podcast are

3690
03:28:31,760 --> 03:28:34,480
Speaker 1: big areas of interest. But I but I, but I

3691
03:28:34,560 --> 03:28:36,440
Speaker 1: super agree with you because I've been thinking about this

3692
03:28:36,520 --> 03:28:38,280
Speaker 1: and I've ended up having conversations with a lot of

3693
03:28:38,360 --> 03:28:41,640
Speaker 1: my peers in pharmacy and in the university. Because people

3694
03:28:41,720 --> 03:28:43,600
Speaker 1: might not recognize this, but pharmacy is actually one of

3695
03:28:43,640 --> 03:28:48,640
Speaker 1: the more conservative spaces in healthcare. Uh. Like my my

3696
03:28:48,760 --> 03:28:51,600
Speaker 1: school had a dress code for the students until two

3697
03:28:51,680 --> 03:28:53,760
Speaker 1: years ago when I fought hard enough to get it removed.

3698
03:28:53,920 --> 03:28:57,280
Speaker 1: Like it was wild. Um, Like the code of Conduct

3699
03:28:57,320 --> 03:28:59,520
Speaker 1: committee tried to get me, tried to prevent me from

3700
03:28:59,560 --> 03:29:03,960
Speaker 1: getting my ears pierced. Like, yeah, it's a wild space

3701
03:29:04,080 --> 03:29:08,480
Speaker 1: for me to exist in. Um, it's extremely conservative, extremely traditional,

3702
03:29:08,640 --> 03:29:13,840
Speaker 1: like the some Like yeah, I got stories that I'd

3703
03:29:13,920 --> 03:29:15,640
Speaker 1: love to tell if you wanted to hear them. But

3704
03:29:16,120 --> 03:29:19,440
Speaker 1: the thing that I think is really interesting is when

3705
03:29:20,000 --> 03:29:22,119
Speaker 1: you look at me in comparison to my my colleagues

3706
03:29:22,120 --> 03:29:26,800
Speaker 1: who are predominantly like Christian, predominantly like traditionalist, predominantly capitalist,

3707
03:29:27,080 --> 03:29:31,439
Speaker 1: and I roll in as this like anti capitalist, like anarchists,

3708
03:29:32,120 --> 03:29:36,320
Speaker 1: trans woman, who's Polly, who's pan sexual, who's a pagan?

3709
03:29:36,440 --> 03:29:39,520
Speaker 1: All the p's and it's like, well, once I question gender,

3710
03:29:40,040 --> 03:29:43,400
Speaker 1: I started realizing all of culture and society is bullshit,

3711
03:29:43,920 --> 03:29:47,360
Speaker 1: and now I can tell you the truth. Come to

3712
03:29:47,560 --> 03:29:51,119
Speaker 1: me for the truth of reality. No, it even makes

3713
03:29:51,120 --> 03:29:54,440
Speaker 1: sense in terms of like you know, why why did

3714
03:29:54,760 --> 03:29:57,440
Speaker 1: two trans women make the matrix? You're like, yeah, no,

3715
03:29:57,600 --> 03:29:59,520
Speaker 1: it's like it's it is. It is the same thing

3716
03:29:59,600 --> 03:30:02,880
Speaker 1: as your Your entire nature and basis of reality was

3717
03:30:02,959 --> 03:30:06,279
Speaker 1: severely questioned. So so you're trying to trying to understand

3718
03:30:06,360 --> 03:30:09,040
Speaker 1: these feelings. And for you know, mid modern days we

3719
03:30:09,120 --> 03:30:12,600
Speaker 1: have like stuff like simulation theory, we have the matrix, um,

3720
03:30:13,320 --> 03:30:15,440
Speaker 1: and then you know, but before before then, you know,

3721
03:30:15,560 --> 03:30:17,960
Speaker 1: it would have been taken out in like spiritualism and

3722
03:30:18,280 --> 03:30:20,880
Speaker 1: religion and you know, the different levels of reality on

3723
03:30:20,959 --> 03:30:23,520
Speaker 1: like the whole like mystic side of things as opposed

3724
03:30:23,520 --> 03:30:25,760
Speaker 1: to like the more sci fi side of things. Um.

3725
03:30:26,000 --> 03:30:28,520
Speaker 1: But yeah, like it's it's all the same stuff. Like

3726
03:30:28,640 --> 03:30:32,280
Speaker 1: you're you're, you're, you're playing with the same things. Um, yeah,

3727
03:30:32,400 --> 03:30:34,640
Speaker 1: it is. It is just a funny a funny trend

3728
03:30:34,760 --> 03:30:37,320
Speaker 1: that once you once you notice it, you'll you'll start

3729
03:30:37,400 --> 03:30:40,880
Speaker 1: seeing it in in like different places. Yeah, so we

3730
03:30:40,959 --> 03:30:44,400
Speaker 1: are still mystics who understand the true reality of the

3731
03:30:44,480 --> 03:30:46,800
Speaker 1: world and will force them you if you don't give

3732
03:30:46,879 --> 03:30:49,600
Speaker 1: us respect. I just don't see what the problem. I

3733
03:30:49,720 --> 03:30:56,920
Speaker 1: believe that That was my takeaway from Matrix Resurrections. Oh yeah, well,

3734
03:30:57,120 --> 03:30:59,400
Speaker 1: of is there is there anything else you would want

3735
03:30:59,400 --> 03:31:03,360
Speaker 1: to you would want to add? Oh my goodness, Um,

3736
03:31:05,200 --> 03:31:07,360
Speaker 1: I don't know fight for trans people. One of the

3737
03:31:07,440 --> 03:31:10,000
Speaker 1: things that I end up always having to talk to

3738
03:31:10,600 --> 03:31:14,280
Speaker 1: my students about in colleagues and things is what ally means,

3739
03:31:15,240 --> 03:31:18,680
Speaker 1: because I've literally gotten into arguments with people who are like, oh, yeah,

3740
03:31:18,720 --> 03:31:20,840
Speaker 1: it's l g B t Q I A because A

3741
03:31:20,959 --> 03:31:24,640
Speaker 1: stands for ally, and I'm like, oh, I will knife you,

3742
03:31:25,040 --> 03:31:27,920
Speaker 1: like like, it doesn't stand for ally, it stands for

3743
03:31:28,000 --> 03:31:34,920
Speaker 1: a sexual or romantic of all of all of the

3744
03:31:35,000 --> 03:31:38,240
Speaker 1: other a's yes. But it's the it's this thing where

3745
03:31:38,800 --> 03:31:41,840
Speaker 1: people think being an ally is just being like like

3746
03:31:42,000 --> 03:31:44,200
Speaker 1: okay with a person existing the kind of like, well

3747
03:31:44,240 --> 03:31:46,560
Speaker 1: if it makes you happy, which is like okay, motherfucker,

3748
03:31:46,720 --> 03:31:51,600
Speaker 1: that's not like. That is so belittling of the experience. Um,

3749
03:31:52,560 --> 03:31:54,560
Speaker 1: that's not ally. Ship. To be an ally, you have

3750
03:31:54,680 --> 03:31:57,520
Speaker 1: to leverage your privilege by not being a member of

3751
03:31:57,560 --> 03:32:01,120
Speaker 1: that community to protect people in that community. You can

3752
03:32:01,200 --> 03:32:04,080
Speaker 1: be tolerant, but not an ally. And that's sort of

3753
03:32:04,160 --> 03:32:06,440
Speaker 1: where the old saying comes from that if that's what

3754
03:32:06,640 --> 03:32:08,959
Speaker 1: being an ally is to you, we don't need allies,

3755
03:32:09,120 --> 03:32:14,240
Speaker 1: we need accomplices. And um. With the current legislative push

3756
03:32:14,360 --> 03:32:17,840
Speaker 1: against trans people, I mean, like literally what I do

3757
03:32:18,120 --> 03:32:20,920
Speaker 1: is like a felony in three states now, are almost

3758
03:32:21,000 --> 03:32:23,120
Speaker 1: a felony in three states, and it's going to be

3759
03:32:23,200 --> 03:32:26,200
Speaker 1: a growing number of states. Yeah, and and and it's

3760
03:32:26,280 --> 03:32:31,680
Speaker 1: just so unbelievably depressing. And there aren't enough. I mean,

3761
03:32:31,720 --> 03:32:34,160
Speaker 1: there's a lot of trans and non binary and and

3762
03:32:34,320 --> 03:32:36,800
Speaker 1: every kind of expression you could want people in this country,

3763
03:32:36,879 --> 03:32:40,200
Speaker 1: way more than than a lot of surveys suspected. Um,

3764
03:32:41,200 --> 03:32:46,280
Speaker 1: but we're not enough to necessarily fight this in a

3765
03:32:46,400 --> 03:32:49,359
Speaker 1: way that isn't going to end up with increasing violence.

3766
03:32:49,400 --> 03:32:53,560
Speaker 1: I mean, the the FBI statistics of random violence against

3767
03:32:53,600 --> 03:32:57,119
Speaker 1: into like hate crime specifically has been rising against LGBT people,

3768
03:32:57,440 --> 03:33:00,320
Speaker 1: especially trans people, in the last couple of years, and

3769
03:33:00,360 --> 03:33:02,360
Speaker 1: I'm sure it's only going to get more in the

3770
03:33:02,480 --> 03:33:05,800
Speaker 1: next few years. Still with all of the with the

3771
03:33:05,959 --> 03:33:08,400
Speaker 1: wave of stuff happening in the past few months. Yeah,

3772
03:33:08,680 --> 03:33:11,119
Speaker 1: So if you're if you're not. If you're assist person

3773
03:33:11,959 --> 03:33:13,879
Speaker 1: and you want to be an ally, you gotta fight

3774
03:33:13,959 --> 03:33:16,560
Speaker 1: for us. And if you're a trans person, if you

3775
03:33:16,640 --> 03:33:19,920
Speaker 1: don't have other reasons why you can't maybe arm yourself

3776
03:33:20,680 --> 03:33:22,800
Speaker 1: in some way at this point, if you if you

3777
03:33:22,879 --> 03:33:27,680
Speaker 1: feel mentally capable, it's not a bad idea to learn

3778
03:33:27,760 --> 03:33:31,000
Speaker 1: how to do things. It's not a not a bad

3779
03:33:31,080 --> 03:33:33,080
Speaker 1: idea to get stop the bleed training, not a bad

3780
03:33:33,120 --> 03:33:36,600
Speaker 1: idea to get you know, emergency first aid training, right

3781
03:33:36,640 --> 03:33:41,800
Speaker 1: all of all of all of the things. Because things

3782
03:33:41,879 --> 03:33:44,279
Speaker 1: are things are happening and they're going to keep happening.

3783
03:33:45,320 --> 03:33:49,600
Speaker 1: One might say it could happen here. Wow, I know,

3784
03:33:50,040 --> 03:33:52,520
Speaker 1: we really we really put this together, just pulled it back,

3785
03:33:52,720 --> 03:33:55,720
Speaker 1: just just really encapsulated it. So yeah, I think that

3786
03:33:55,840 --> 03:33:59,040
Speaker 1: does it for us today. Um, do do you have

3787
03:33:59,200 --> 03:34:01,720
Speaker 1: do have any of plugables that you would like to

3788
03:34:02,040 --> 03:34:06,720
Speaker 1: uh plug? Yeah? Sure, So if you wanted to talk

3789
03:34:06,800 --> 03:34:09,840
Speaker 1: to me more, you can. I'm on Twitter for now,

3790
03:34:09,920 --> 03:34:14,280
Speaker 1: assuming that elon must doesn't make it entirely unlivable at Vixen,

3791
03:34:14,360 --> 03:34:17,080
Speaker 1: which but the w S two vs. I don't post

3792
03:34:17,120 --> 03:34:18,800
Speaker 1: a hole up, but you can you can find me there.

3793
03:34:19,000 --> 03:34:21,080
Speaker 1: You can also just straight up email me if you

3794
03:34:21,160 --> 03:34:24,520
Speaker 1: had questions. My like work email for that purpose is

3795
03:34:24,680 --> 03:34:27,680
Speaker 1: just Victoria dot grieve at pit dot e d U

3796
03:34:27,879 --> 03:34:30,160
Speaker 1: I'd have I'd be happy to answer any questions that

3797
03:34:30,280 --> 03:34:34,080
Speaker 1: people have. UH. And it's a robust university firewall, so

3798
03:34:34,240 --> 03:34:37,840
Speaker 1: if I get hey that, that's fine, it won't get through. UM.

3799
03:34:38,560 --> 03:34:41,080
Speaker 1: The and then outside of like my classes and stuff.

3800
03:34:41,160 --> 03:34:42,800
Speaker 1: The only other thing I wanted to plug because you

3801
03:34:42,840 --> 03:34:46,040
Speaker 1: brought it up. I am a frequent guest on a

3802
03:34:46,160 --> 03:34:49,320
Speaker 1: podcast that a friend of mine hosts called School of Movies,

3803
03:34:49,440 --> 03:34:53,119
Speaker 1: and we actually did Matrix two, three and four UM

3804
03:34:53,320 --> 03:34:55,440
Speaker 1: and I was on those episodes and talked a lot

3805
03:34:55,560 --> 03:34:58,720
Speaker 1: about the trans narrative there in UH. We also did

3806
03:34:58,720 --> 03:35:02,480
Speaker 1: an episode on Priscilla, Queen of the because that's great.

3807
03:35:02,760 --> 03:35:04,760
Speaker 1: I was always lucky enough to watch for Siliquin of

3808
03:35:04,800 --> 03:35:07,520
Speaker 1: the Desert a few a few months ago UM with

3809
03:35:07,760 --> 03:35:10,560
Speaker 1: some queer friends of mine with Hugo Weaving, and in

3810
03:35:11,000 --> 03:35:13,560
Speaker 1: both of those he is he is. It is pretty

3811
03:35:13,680 --> 03:35:15,840
Speaker 1: It is pretty fun watching Hugo Weaving go from agents

3812
03:35:15,840 --> 03:35:18,680
Speaker 1: Smith to his character and Prisili Queen of the Desert,

3813
03:35:18,920 --> 03:35:22,760
Speaker 1: it's beautiful. It's a beautiful metamorphosis. It is it is

3814
03:35:22,879 --> 03:35:25,240
Speaker 1: very good, But yeah, thank you so much for coming

3815
03:35:25,320 --> 03:35:32,880
Speaker 1: on to talk anytime. Thank you for listening to my

3816
03:35:32,959 --> 03:35:36,720
Speaker 1: little two parter on hormone replacement therapy. If you want

3817
03:35:36,760 --> 03:35:38,920
Speaker 1: to start reading more on the d I Y and

3818
03:35:39,040 --> 03:35:42,040
Speaker 1: mutual aid side of things, check out d I Y

3819
03:35:42,320 --> 03:35:46,480
Speaker 1: HRT dot, get hub dot, io HRT dot Cafe and

3820
03:35:46,720 --> 03:35:49,440
Speaker 1: d I Y trans dot Luckie as a jumping off point.

3821
03:35:49,800 --> 03:35:51,360
Speaker 1: But obviously you don't take everything to read on the

3822
03:35:51,400 --> 03:35:54,480
Speaker 1: internet as gospel. I do think it's worth learning how

3823
03:35:54,600 --> 03:35:58,000
Speaker 1: to make your own drugs possibly and learning how to

3824
03:35:58,160 --> 03:36:00,520
Speaker 1: source your own estrogen from play says that are not

3825
03:36:00,640 --> 03:36:03,320
Speaker 1: just a doctor, because who knows what other states will

3826
03:36:03,320 --> 03:36:08,280
Speaker 1: start criminalizing getting drugs for doctor right, it's it is.

3827
03:36:09,000 --> 03:36:11,640
Speaker 1: There seems to be a trend of making HRT illegal

3828
03:36:12,720 --> 03:36:15,080
Speaker 1: via the medical system, So if this is something definitely

3829
03:36:15,120 --> 03:36:17,720
Speaker 1: to look into, because it seems more and more people

3830
03:36:17,920 --> 03:36:21,480
Speaker 1: will face restrictions in this vein. So yeah, that's kind

3831
03:36:21,480 --> 03:36:22,959
Speaker 1: of a big reason for why I wanted to talk

3832
03:36:23,000 --> 03:36:26,760
Speaker 1: about this today on the pod. Big Extra special thanks

3833
03:36:26,800 --> 03:36:30,320
Speaker 1: to Dr Victoria Luna Brennan Grieve for coming on to

3834
03:36:30,360 --> 03:36:34,280
Speaker 1: talk with me about gender affirming hormonal treatment. You can

3835
03:36:34,400 --> 03:36:37,000
Speaker 1: check her out or ask her questions on her Twitter,

3836
03:36:37,120 --> 03:36:40,000
Speaker 1: which can be found at vixen which with a two

3837
03:36:40,120 --> 03:36:43,480
Speaker 1: vs for the w in which or you can email

3838
03:36:43,520 --> 03:36:48,520
Speaker 1: her queries at Victoria dot grieve at pit dot e

3839
03:36:48,720 --> 03:36:52,000
Speaker 1: d U and that doesn't for us today, everybody. You

3840
03:36:52,120 --> 03:36:54,600
Speaker 1: can follow the show at Happened Here pod and cools

3841
03:36:54,640 --> 03:36:57,880
Speaker 1: one Media on Twitter and Instagram, and you can look

3842
03:36:57,920 --> 03:37:02,240
Speaker 1: at my late night gender style tweets at Hungry bow Tie.

3843
03:37:02,920 --> 03:37:09,920
Speaker 1: See you on the other side. Hey, We'll be back

3844
03:37:10,000 --> 03:37:13,160
Speaker 1: Monday with more episodes every week from now until the

3845
03:37:13,200 --> 03:37:15,720
Speaker 1: heat death of the Universe. It Could Happen Here is

3846
03:37:15,760 --> 03:37:18,440
Speaker 1: a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from

3847
03:37:18,440 --> 03:37:21,119
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media dot

3848
03:37:21,200 --> 03:37:23,280
Speaker 1: com or check us out on the I Heart Radio app,

3849
03:37:23,280 --> 03:37:26,640
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can

3850
03:37:26,680 --> 03:37:29,320
Speaker 1: find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at

3851
03:37:29,400 --> 03:37:32,600
Speaker 1: cool zone Media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.